Open mike 02/12/2022

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, December 2nd, 2022 - 84 comments
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84 comments on “Open mike 02/12/2022 ”

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  1. Jester 1
    2 December 2022 at 7:11 am

    "Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern attended a Labour Party caucus meeting where a last-minute entrenchment clause in the Government’s controversial Three Waters legislation was discussed, despite her saying on Monday it was “not necessarily something I would be aware of”."

    Was Jacinda asleep at the meeting?

    Jacinda Ardern attended Labour caucus meeting where controversial Three Waters entrenchment clause was 'discussed' | Stuff.co.nz

    • Ad 1.1
      2 December 2022 at 8:29 am

      For the life of me I do not understand why Ardern isn't simply fully supporting her Minister to secure Parliamentary entrenchment of water assets.

      It is basic public ownership of assets that Labour since Helen Clark have fought hard for, and with decent leadership from Ardern would have pretty easy public support.

      Instead she is digging a series of process holes for her caucus to fall into.

      • Shanreagh 1.1.1
        2 December 2022 at 10:28 am

        Agree, entrenchment is a wise move in view of the predilection of the Nacts to sell/privatise everything that moves.

        It is basic public ownership of assets that Labour since Helen Clark have fought hard for, and with decent leadership from Ardern would have pretty easy public support.

        So what if it has only been used in the past for so-called constitutional issues? The Govt could be progressive in extending it and saying that water is one of those issues as important as people & how we are governed.

      • weka 1.1.2
        2 December 2022 at 11:53 am

        big precedent to set.

        Or, Labour aren't *that committed to preventing asset sales.

        • bwaghorn 1.1.2.1
          2 December 2022 at 12:00 pm

          My thoughts exactly if they were they'd make it 80% support to reverse entrenchment

        • Shanreagh 1.1.2.2
          2 December 2022 at 12:31 pm

          Weka
          ‘Or, Labour aren’t *that committed to preventing asset sales.’

          Yes that thought lingers at the back of my mind too.

      • DS 1.1.3
        2 December 2022 at 7:29 pm

        Because entrenchment doesn't work, and just means you hand the high-ground to National (who wouldn't respect the entrenchment anyway).

        The way to stop future privatisations is to declare a Labour policy of renationalisation, at the price the asset was sold for. Not that this (thoroughly neoliberal) Government would dare try that.

    • Alan 1.2
      2 December 2022 at 8:58 am

      Wow, civil war?

    • Louis 1.3
      2 December 2022 at 10:22 am

      Looks like media took what the PM said out of context. "As I’ve just explained, often SOPs will happen in real time. I can’t tell you how much notice was given on the floor, on this particular SOP, but that’s not something I would necessarily be aware of"

      https://www.beehive.govt.nz/sites/default/files/2022-11/Post-Cabinet%20Press%20Conference%2028%20November%202022.pdf

    • Jimmy 1.4
      2 December 2022 at 11:42 am

      As David Farrar has said, there is only four possible explanations;

      1. She wasn't listening in caucus

      2. She didn't understand

      3. She forgot

      4. She lied

    • Leighton 1.5
      2 December 2022 at 7:59 pm

      Selling public assets is entrenched in the sense that it is pretty much irreversible regardless of the policy of subsequent governments. Compared to that, a 60% clause is child's play.

  2. Sanctuary 2
    2 December 2022 at 7:13 am

    You know, if my family had a child beaten to death while it's parent was in jail I'd be looking a bit closer to home for reasons and actions than demanding a meeting with the prime minister to see what everyone else can do about it.

    Always someone elses fault.

    • Adrian 2.1
      2 December 2022 at 7:34 am

      Exactly.

    • Tony Veitch 2.2
      2 December 2022 at 8:57 am

      I may be missing important bits of information, but it seems to me the care of Malachi was an informal sort of arrangement between his mother and the caregiver.

      What was there, if this was the arrangement, for the family to step in immediately when they perceived the boy was suffering?

      It appears they did sweet f-all, but are now trumpeting loud and long about failures of the system.

      The same would seem the case with the Sandringham killing – surely the dairy owner would/should have given explicit instructions to his workers not to confront an armed robber in any way, certainly not pursue them down the street.

      But the anti-government brigade are shouting out that the government hasn’t done enough etc. As Ianmac points out below, 2014 saw two killings under a Natz government.

      As for Natz – they don’t give a proverbial for the bottom feeders (those most impacted by crime and dysfunctional families). This is a stick to beat the government with, with one aim – winning the ’23 election. Nothing else matters to Natz and Act (although Act may be a bit more principled that the Natz IMO).

      • Sanctuary 2.2.1
        2 December 2022 at 9:26 am

        No one in the family would have put their hand up when asked, although they are now all demanding answers about why nothing was done.

        The state can only do so much. The neglect, abuse and lack of care shown to that poor child was a result much more of human failings than state ones. The first port of call when looking for solutions is within the childs community, not the state authorities.

      • joe90 2.2.2
        2 December 2022 at 1:47 pm

        It appears they did sweet f-all, but are now trumpeting loud and long about failures of the system.

        That's a bit rough. The kid's extended family were likely of limited means, 500km away, and up against his mother's wishes, the family court and the killers deception

        However, if we're going to lay blame, let's start with the other adults in the murderers family who lived in close proximity to where the poor little bugger was terrorised and beaten to death because in the words of my SO who works at the pointy end; someone always knows.

        .

        Another lawyer, working with Malachi’s mother, said “no safety concerns were raised” during the process that lead to Malachi being placed in Barriball’s care before his mother was jailed.

        On September 13, Barriball was appointed as an additional guardian by the family court. The summary of facts in the murder case states Barriball was “resisting applications being made by the deceased’s biological family for them to obtain custody of him”.

        The family said they held grave fears for his safety and expected Malachi to come to them up until the date of his mother’s imprisonment.

        A full hearing was to be held on November 1. Barriball cancelled the hearing on October 29. Two days later, on the day of the cancelled hearing, Barriball inflicted multiple blunt force trauma injuries on Malachi and he was airlifted to Starship children’s hospital.

        https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300624189/how-did-4yearold-malachi-leave-court-with-his-killer

  3. pat 3
    2 December 2022 at 7:36 am

    "If you think the public ownership of water assets is crucial, you can seek to protect it without the need for Parliamentary manœuvres, while also protecting the moral weight of entrenchment. But you have to mean it, and you have to want it more than you want some rhetorical cudgel to swing against the opposition. Come back next week and fix this mess, but come back to voters next year and show you mean what you say."

    https://publicaddress.net/legalbeagle/the-entrenchment-angle-we-all-missed/

    Democracy!

  4. ianmac 4
    2 December 2022 at 8:30 am

    About 2014 a dairy owner was killed in Ferry Road Christchurch and then another in Henderson June 2014. A pair of sad events. Key was the PM. Now eight years later comes the heartfelt plea from the son of the Henderson son for the current PM and Justice Minister to do something about it.

    How come it is the current leadership is being held to account for events in Key's day?
    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/sandringham-dairy-stabbing-son-of-killed-west-auckland-dairy-owner-arun-kumar-makes-plea-to-jacinda-ardern-kiri-allan/5W4JLZMB6ZFXZDHDQ2AIRN7LLU/

  5. Sanctuary 5
    2 December 2022 at 8:36 am

    This report from RUSI on lessons so far from the Ukraine war should make sobering reading to New Zealanders. The take away is we are as completely unprepared as it is possible to be to take part in a war between peer nation states.

    First lesson – Louis XIV had "Ultima ratio regum" (The final argument of kings) inscribed on all his cannons. This war has shown nothing has changed there. The NZ Army is completely bereft of medium and heavy artillery of any description, having little more than a token force of light (105mm) field artillery and I would guess we won't have enough ammunition available in reserve to even last a particularly fierce engagement against an entrenched bunch of tired but determined three year olds who have eaten too much sugar.

    Yet this war has shown that modern medium and heavy gun and rocket arillery with abundant, domestically produced ammunition is an absolutely critical, war winning weapon. Modern self-propelled artillery systems such as the Australian manufactured AS9 Huntsman variant of the Korean K9 Thunder 155mm SPG & the HIMARS/M270 system with precision ordnance like the M982 Excalibur should be the number one item on the army shopping list, and serious consideration needs to be given to the establishment of a domestic capability to manufacture our own munitions. Artillery dominance means they die, not you.

    Second lesson – we are being seriously left behind in the uncrewed air vehicle space. The loss rate of tactical drones in Ulraine is apparently 90% with the average drone lasting around six sorties. These systems are critical to dominating the infantry and artillery battle. Without them, your sides dies and their side does not. The NZ Army has few drones, and seems schlerotic in it's uptake. There is no reason why we should not be domestically producing a sub $50,000-$100,000 family of class 1 UCAVs that can be plentifully supplied to all levels of our military.

    Third lesson – Industrialised war is as lethal as ever and it has an insatiable apetitite for human lives. You need lots of trained men and those men need equipment. Ill-equipped volunteers making up in sacrifice what they lack in skill and weapons is a formula for heavy losses and ineffective combat performance. Once you've run out of your professionals you rely on the reserves, the para-militaries, the territorials. We've got two anaemic infantry battalions and the reserve/territorial force structure is a bit of a shambolic joke. We need to increase the size of the army and expand the territorials, and make sure we've got enough kit to give them all the helmets, uniforms, boots, radios, body armour, etc etc etc they would need.

    We need to plan for and fund a fully equipped, fully ready, two brigade army expanding to four brigades within four-six months of an emergency.

    • Visubversa 5.1
      2 December 2022 at 9:02 am

      Why? Our closest neighbours are Australia and the Pacific Islands. We are unlikely to be invaded by any of those. We have alliances with other nations for a reason. We do our bit – but have no need to be armed to the teeth.

      • Ad 5.1.1
        2 December 2022 at 9:31 am

        Distance looks our way to our managed fields of protein both land and marine, after successive food price and food access spikes.

        Not sure if you lived through it but a world without strong globalised trade is pretty similar to what we went through from 1977 to 1984.

        That's not a difficult risk scenario to foresee right now.

        And at that point you can either protect yourself or you can't.

        • Visubversa 5.1.1.1
          2 December 2022 at 12:50 pm

          Are you saying that both the Australians and the USA will stand by as China invades New Zealand?

      • Graeme 5.1.2
        2 December 2022 at 10:56 am

        Any interference in our sea and air trade routes would kinda fuck us over.

        Consider the effect of something like MH17 occurring in international waters courtesy of a surface to air missile fired from a submarine. Say NZ1 disappears mid Pacific.

        Suddenly we become very small and the world is a very long way away.

  6. Sanctuary 6
    2 December 2022 at 9:20 am

    Why? because otherwise you pay for lack of preparation in lives. That is a key learning from this war in Ukraine.

    • Sanctuary 7.1
      2 December 2022 at 10:13 am

      Why not just let Nazis use only guaranteed non-Jewish blood? Or Bretherens only blood from other Bretherens? Or Maori nationalists only blood from other Maori? And make sure no one is contaminated by Muggles!

      Blood is blood.

      • Chris 7.1.1
        2 December 2022 at 10:28 am

        Your analysis is too deep for me to understand, apologies.

      • Shanreagh 7.1.2
        2 December 2022 at 10:41 am

        Just so everyone can advocate on my behalf I would like 1/2 English (preferably Anglican clergy type from around London), 1/4 Irish (preferably from the north and preferably Presbyterian and 1/4 Danish from the island of Bornholm and Roman Catholic. These fractions need to be run through NZ based people from 1854/1860 & 1884.

        What can't do it?

        Blood is blood you say?

    • Ad 7.2
      2 December 2022 at 10:23 am

      Doesn't exist.

      • Chris 7.2.1
        2 December 2022 at 10:27 am

        Even more reason to let them use what they want. Government needs to pick its battles.

        • observer 7.2.1.1
          2 December 2022 at 10:38 am

          A battle with the already stressed health sector would not be a wise one to pick.

          "I'm over-ruling the qualified people employed to make health decisions", says Andrew Little. How would that go down?

          And all to appease people holding up signs saying "Nuremberg", "Tyrant".

        • weka 7.2.1.2
          2 December 2022 at 11:08 am

          Even more reason to let them use what they want. Government needs to pick its battles.

          The government doesn't manage the blood service nor the hospital doing the surgery.

    • Anne 7.3
      2 December 2022 at 10:31 am

      "Why don't they just let them use unjabbed blood?

      They would have no blood at all. Every-time someone has a blood check its jabbed. Every time someone needs an infusion of blood its jabbed. No operation can take place without a jab somewhere. Diabetics have to jab their blood everyday.

      If they want “unjabbed blood” they'll need to go to seek out a nomadic tribe somewhere who have never had any association with other humans. Oops: they wouldn't want no black nor brown blood neither.

      Pretty much sums up the level of ignorance, stupidity and the hypocrisy of the parents and their nutbar mates. They are not deserving of any consideration.

      • Mike the Lefty 7.3.1
        2 December 2022 at 6:40 pm

        Next time I need a blood transfusion I will demand only blood from a vaccinated donor. F….d if I want any from some anti Vax nutter, who knows what rabid infections might be in it?

    • weka 7.4
      2 December 2022 at 10:43 am

      it's explained in the article you linked.

      • it sets a precedent (which then puts strain on the system)
      • known donors are less likely to be truthful about risk behaviours and thus the blood is less safe
      • direct donors can't provide specialist blood products needed for the surgery
      • costs
      • babies have particular blood needs when having surgery.

      In other words, the parents are asking the system to jump through a lot of hoops and the people in the system don't see a reason to redirect resources to that because the blood from the general donor service is considered safe.

      • Shanreagh 7.4.1
        2 December 2022 at 10:47 am

        Is it unknown donors are less likely…….

        • weka 7.4.1.1
          2 December 2022 at 11:11 am

          nope. From the article,

          Otago University senior lecturer and haematologist and transfusion medicine specialist, Jim Faed, says research shows directed donations can actually be less safe, because identifiable donors tend to be less honest about risky behaviour, such as historical drug taking, than those giving blood anonymously,

          • Shanreagh 7.4.1.1.1
            2 December 2022 at 2:08 pm

            But directed donors are not the regular donors that would be on call and donating regularly. These would be the ones like those the family wants to enlist. They are the ones less likely to be honest.

            If you are an 'on the books' blood donor ie those giving blood anonymously there is quite a questionnaire to be completed and they ask you for changes each time you go. The moment I was diagnosed as having familial hypercholesterolemia and placed on medication I was told I was unsuitable as a blood donor Not sure why but from my recollection it was not the medication but the state of my blood.

            Familial hypercholesterolemia (FH) is a genetic disorder that affects about 1 in 250 people and increases the likelihood of having coronary heart disease at a younger age.

            • weka 7.4.1.1.1.1
              2 December 2022 at 2:26 pm

              But directed donors are not the regular donors that would be on call and donating regularly. These would be the ones like those the family wants to enlist. They are the ones less likely to be honest.

              That's what I said. When I said 'known donors' I meant the ones nominated by the family. As opposed to the ones donating blood to the system generally.

      • Robert Guyton 7.4.2
        2 December 2022 at 10:48 am

        Again, you have it right.

        • Shanreagh 7.4.2.1
          2 December 2022 at 2:16 pm

          The baby’s mother is a health professional. From the Stuff link above:

          “…she’s a midwife, she’s a very experienced, calm person who understands the issues and who’s done a huge amount of research and has been very proactive in reaching out to look for donors.”

          OMG

          Going off on flights of fancy/fantasy and putting the life of your baby at risk does not seem very responsible. To me the additional horror of it is that she may be currently employed as a midwife and therefore in a position to influence mothers against vaccinating their children.

          Once again the saying from US commentator jeff Tiedrich is apt – dated 13 October 2021

          [unlinked quote deleted]

          [can you please explain to me why you were able to provide the quote and date, but not the link? – weka]

          • weka 7.4.2.1.1
            2 December 2022 at 2:45 pm

            mod note.

            • Shanreagh 7.4.2.1.1.1
              2 December 2022 at 4:49 pm

              I did try and link using the method I used as guided by you earlier of grabbing a name/date/ number above the tweet and posting. There is no number to grab and the link was going straight to his twitter page and tweets of todays etc date.

              I sought the quote via google search and that may be the reason.

              Trying again.

              ETA I have gone to his twitter feed and it cuts out on 8/2/2022 so I cannot get back to October 2021.
              I quoted it at least twice while we were talking about mandates last year so will search there.

              Apologies

              • Shanreagh …
                2 December 2022 at 5:12 pm

                No luck Jeff Tiedrich's Twitter feed goes back to 8/2/22 on my searching.

                I have posted this quote at least three times over the last year so I'll give it a miss trying to link.

                The gist was that mandates are exposing to the cold hard light of reason teachers, nurses and police who don't believe in science, health etc. Their beliefs are one thing and my hope is that they don't bring them to work.

                Midwives play an important role in the health of adult populations to come and if they are anti vaccines then babies potentially miss out on protections from the vaccinations on the Immunisation schedule.

                https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/preventative-health-wellness/immunisation/new-zealand-immunisation-schedule

              • weka …
                2 December 2022 at 5:18 pm

                date/time stamps are at the bottom of a tweet on the two devices I use.

                google is fine and doesn't make a difference. I googled the first 8 words and the tweet was the first google hit. I opened it to get the link.

                https://twitter.com/itsjefftiedrich/status/1448013833847681030

              • weka …
                2 December 2022 at 5:22 pm

                what you are failing to appreciate here is that I'm in moderator mode. I'm sick to the back teeth of having to remind regulars about this repeatedly. I'm getting close to the point of dumping whole comments in Trash instead of editing them. And shortly after that I will start banning people.

                Your wanting to make a political point doesn't take precedence over my or Incognito's time, nor how the debate side of the site functions. If you cannot link then don't quote, it's really that simple. Nothing bad was going to happen from your comment not appearing, but obviously quoting without linking was going to cause more work for moderators.

                I've said this to others before, if you are posting a lot, slow down. If you have trouble linking then ask for help. But quoting without linking when you know damn well it's no ok is just hugely disrespectful to the mods and the community.

                • Shanreagh …
                  2 December 2022 at 10:16 pm

                  Read your post, thanks, as always for the guidance. I appreciate the work you do, as I do the work of all the moderators and apologise for making a mess and causing work.

          • Anne 7.4.2.1.2
            2 December 2022 at 4:56 pm

            The moment I hear the words:

            'I/she/he is a health professional who had done lots of personal research' my cynicism antennae goes into overdrive.

            • Shanreagh 7.4.2.1.2.1
              2 December 2022 at 5:19 pm

              Mine too. I am horrified actually. It is one thing to have these beliefs as an adult with only one adult, you, to look after but once you have another person who is totally reliant on you and no voice of their own it is quite another thing. The ethical questions need framing differently.

              The fact that she is a health professional makes it even more concerning. Is she also a follower of Andrew Wakefield and will the baby be vaccinated against measles/mumps/rubella?

              Yes in my foray into the weird world of the weird views of the anti-vax community those words about ‘doing my own research’ were a signal that they had looked at every nutter site about vaccines. .

      • mauī 7.4.3
        2 December 2022 at 7:45 pm

        Those hurdles can be overcome.

        There's obvious reasons why a known blood donor would be more trusted than an anonymous one.

        The reason for direct donors not being able to provide all the blood products, appears to be shortage of time in this case.

        The parents have paid for donors to be screened and the donors are waiting. Reducing some of the extra cost.

    • Nic the NZer 7.5
      2 December 2022 at 1:13 pm

      In case anybody else read to the end of the Stuff article, yes, Stuff longer has news editors.

    • Brigid 7.6
      2 December 2022 at 4:53 pm

      Because there's no such thing. If you'd ever donated blood you'd know this.

  8. Ad 8
    2 December 2022 at 10:26 am

    Japan, Netherlands, Senegal, England, USA, France, Australia, Argentina, Poland, Morocco, Croatia, Brazil and Portugal.

    3 more to go to make the top 16.

    • Sanctuary 8.1
      2 December 2022 at 10:39 am

      One question I have about the World Cup – I have read that a lot of the top players get "injuries" and no longer go to the world cup because it represents the longest break from the grind of professional European football they'll get for another four years.

      Anyone know if that is true?

      • tc 8.1.1
        2 December 2022 at 4:57 pm

        Clubs pay the wages.

      • Mac1 8.1.2
        2 December 2022 at 5:10 pm

        I do know that a lot of players do go to the World Cup and fake injuries- called 'simulation'. I'm not a usual football watcher and have been dismayed by the amount of histrionical, shin-clutching, teeth-clenching bad acting that takes place when two players get close to one another in a tackle.

        Of course there are genuine injuries, but really……

        https://yoursoccerhome.com/5-reasons-soccer-players-fake-injuries-or-flop/

        Also the arm-blocking and jersey-pulling that goes on- the 'beautiful game'?

      • Binders full of Women 8.1.3
        2 December 2022 at 6:24 pm

        Obviously the French team has heaps of players of African heritage… what I didn't realise is that a lot of the African teams (Senegal, Cameroon, Morroco, & maybe Ghana) have a heap of Frenchmen (of African descent) who didn't make it for France. I have no prob with it just didn't realise that a good chunk of the African stars are actually…French

    • RedLogix 8.2
      2 December 2022 at 12:08 pm

      I can advise that Aussie soccer fans are shocked and delighted at getting just this far.

  9. Barfly 9
    2 December 2022 at 12:47 pm

    Well ,well ,well I believe it has been said that Wayne Brown had big money supporting his campaign and look now is this the payoff?

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/local-government/130646072/auckland-mayor-wayne-brown-looks-to-sell-2-billion-worth-of-airport-shares

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