Open mike 02/10/2015

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1. Tautoko Mangō Mata 1

   2 October 2015 at 6:48 am

   Latest TPP News/HEADLINES
   1. “U.S. Formally Proposes Carveout Of Anti-Tobacco Measures From ISDS
   ATLANTA – In a move that is likely to ignite a firestorm on Capitol Hill, the Obama administration on Wednesday (Sept. 30) formally proposed language in the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) agreement that would prevent tobacco control measures from being challenged under the deal’s investor-state dispute settlement (ISDS) mechanism, according to sources close to the negotiations.

   Ministerial To Be Extended At Least One Day; Gaps Remain On Big 3 Issues
   ATLANTA – The Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) ministerial underway here will be extended at least through Friday (Oct. 2), as Mexico continues to take a hard line on the automotive rules of origin and significant gaps remain on dairy market access and the monopoly period for biologic drugs.

   Trade Committee Leaders Demand USTR, Treasury Step Up TPP Consultations
   The four leaders of the congressional trade committees are demanding that U.S. Trade Representative Michael Froman and Treasury Secretary Jack Lew intensify their outreach to Congress and stakeholders with respect to the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) negotiations to ensure an outcome that meets congressional priorities.”

   Australia Says Its System Preserves Biologics Monopoly For Six Years

   House Lawmakers Push Froman To Grant More Sugar Access Under TPP
   http://insidetrade.com/ paywall

   2. The significance of the tobacco carveout is discussed in this excellent article linked below,
   TPP Carve Out for Tobacco Shows Core Flaws in Investor-State Dispute Settlement (ISDS)
   “The new exception validates, rather than assuages, the concerns of those who have been criticizing ISDS systems for many years. Without express carve outs, ISDS provisions do threaten common health and safety regulations.”
   http://infojustice.org/archives/35107
   • Bill 1.1

     2 October 2015 at 3:31 pm

     The ‘carve outs’.

     So in summary – I request that this agreement between us should not mean that they get to visit violence on me. You tell me we can draw up an agreed list of violences that have not to be perpetrated. (For some unknowable reason I agree that we provide a list)

     And when they spoon out my eyes they ‘reasonably’ point to the sub-heading marked ‘eyes’ and the fact that, whereas ‘stabbing in the yes’ was listed, spooning of the eyes wasn’t.

     Does that kind of cover it off?
2. Tautoko Mangō Mata 2

   2 October 2015 at 7:24 am

   Latest TPP News update
   U.S. Tobacco Proposal Makes ISDS Carveout Optional; Builds On Existing Language
   ATLANTA – The U.S. proposal on tobacco tabled here would give countries the option to prevent tobacco companies from challenging tobacco control measures under investor-state dispute settlement (ISDS), using a concept that already exists under the U.S. investment model called “denial of benefits,” according to informed sources.
   http://insidetrade.com/ paywall
   • Ad 2.1

     2 October 2015 at 4:54 pm

     Any further updates?
     • Tautoko Mangō Mata 2.1.1

       2 October 2015 at 5:51 pm

       “Inside U.S. Trade – October 2, 2015 Inside U.S. Trade All Headlines
       TPP Ministerial Likely To Stretch To Weekend Despite Auto Progress
       ATLANTA —
       As of press time, the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) ministerial taking place here was considered increasingly likely to last beyond Friday (Oct. 2) due to continuing differences on dairy market access and monopoly protections for biologic drugs, despite key parties being close to a deal on the automotive rules of origin.”

       U.S. Tobacco Proposal Makes ISDS Carveout Optional; Builds On Model BIT

       http://insidetrade.com/
3. b waghorn 3

   2 October 2015 at 7:44 am

   http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/285835/have-asset-sale-funds-gone-where-promised
   Now I reckon that if a farm manager sold off a few paddocks to fix the woolshed roof he’d be down the road pretty quick, and yet these inept fools are still running our country.
   • Puckish Rogue 3.1

     2 October 2015 at 9:59 am

     As opposed to the fools who commited economic sabotage and lost a billion dollars off the price of the shares

     Though I got more shares because of it so silver lining and all that
     • Draco T Bastard 3.1.1

       2 October 2015 at 10:26 am

       As opposed to the fools who commited economic sabotage and lost a billion dollars off the price of the shares

       If that was the case then National shouldn’t have sold thus National are still the economic saboteurs – as they always are as the work to enrich the rich.

       Though I got more shares because of it so silver lining and all that

       Ah, so you personally got to become a bigger bludger.
       • Puckish Rogue 3.1.1.1

         2 October 2015 at 11:46 am

         I got more shares because the left tried to derail the process so thanks I guess
       • Paul 3.1.1.2

         2 October 2015 at 11:47 am

         Bragging about this makes pr look a fool.
         • Puckish Rogue 3.1.1.2.1

           2 October 2015 at 12:45 pm

           You’re the ones that allowed me to make more money so if you don’t like then have a look in the mirror and blame the person looking back
     • b waghorn 3.1.2

       2 October 2015 at 11:21 am

       If I was I charge I’d be forcibly them buy them back at what you payed for them .
       Nzs resources like renewable power should be for all ,not for the rich and the non residents to profit from.
       • Puckish Rogue 3.1.2.1

         2 October 2015 at 11:48 am

         If I was in charge I’d say that were going to have partial privitisation before an upcoming election and then let the people of NZ decide
         • Draco T Bastard 3.1.2.1.1

           2 October 2015 at 12:40 pm

           We did – 70% against the sales according to the referendum. The sale of those shares were, essentially, legalised theft.
           • Puckish Rogue 3.1.2.1.1.1

             2 October 2015 at 12:43 pm

             National said what it would do before the election, it gave the voters of NZ plenty of time to think about and voters voted accordingly

             Thats democracy for you
             • Draco T Bastard …

               2 October 2015 at 1:14 pm

               No, that’s elected dictatorship. Democracy is when the people actually get a say in the policies.
               • Puckish Rogue …

                 2 October 2015 at 3:53 pm

                 The people spoke, well enough people anyway, and National got re-elected

                 I guess for people like you democracy is only good when the people you support get elected
         • b waghorn 3.1.2.1.2

           2 October 2015 at 3:35 pm

           I don’t give a …. Who got voted in and how. If society wants to avoid repeating the same bloody upheavals caused by wealth accumulating at the top then we need to evolve past being greedy little monkeys.
     • b waghorn 3.1.3

       2 October 2015 at 6:08 pm

       I just reread you’re reply ,nice bit of diversion.
       This post /comment had nothing to do with the rightor wrong of selling them it was about the fact that these so called economic geniuses that run the country are that stupid and short sighted that they sold a productive asset to paper over the cracks of there inability to balance the books.
4. Pasupial 4

   2 October 2015 at 8:17 am

   Some good news (as far as it goes):

   Early last year, Shell and partners OMV and Mitsui E&P laid out plans to drill a $200 million test well in the Great South Basin by this summer.

   But this week, Shell announced it would not be drilling in 2016. The news came just one day after Shell announced it was pulling out of drilling in the Arctic off the coast of Alaska…

   In waters off New Zealand’s southeast coast, Shell is one of five companies to hold seven exploration permits. Anadarko, Woodside Energy Ltd, TAG Oil, and New Zealand Oil and Gas are also permit-holders.

   http://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/357925/jubilation-and-disappointment

   http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/sep/28/shell-ceases-alaska-arctic-drilling-exploratory-well-oil-gas-disappoints
5. Paul 5

   2 October 2015 at 8:38 am

   Key catches up with Rupert Murdoch.
   They discuss the carve up of New Zelaand.
   Who else is he meeting while he ‘s in New York?
   The head of Merrill Lynch ?
   The head of Goldman Sachs?

   http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11522286
   • srylands 5.1

     2 October 2015 at 8:51 am

     Merrill Lynch ceased trading in 2013. The “head” of Merrill Lynch is the CE of the Bank of America. The Merrill Lynch brand is simply a moderatley sized wealth management division of the Bank of America. Why would JK be meeting with them?

     Most of Goldman Sachs work in New Zealand is corporate advisory – again why would JK be meeing with them? And even if he was, what is the problem? What is your point?

     One person who he is meeting with is Helen. I was releived from her commenst yesterday that she seems to have acquired some common sense since being exposed to the UN. I concede I was surprised at her comments about the TPP, but I will take my pleasant surprises from any sources.
     • Paul 5.1.1

       2 October 2015 at 9:43 am

       My points.
       1. Once a bankster, always a bankster.
       2. It is interesting that Key catches up with Murdoch, don’t you think.
     • Paul 5.1.2

       2 October 2015 at 9:47 am

       You support of the TPPA is noted.
       You seem to agree with all the agenda of the 0.001%.

       Either you are a member of that destructive group or you are a shill for them.
       • Pasupial 5.1.2.1

         2 October 2015 at 10:36 am

         Paul

         Srylands wishes he was part of the 0.001%, but your second guess seems the more likely to be accurate. With his pseudonym and better knowledge of the Australia (eg GST rates) than NZ, I’ve always put him down as CT spinner from across the ditch.

         What is interesting is that this is only the second time he’s commented since May 14th (when his contribution was simply; “Dicks”, something to remember when he inevitably pulls out the; “There is no cause for rudeness”, line). When I saw his comment yesterday, I assumed he must have just come off a ban, but that doesn’t seem to be the case. It is telling that the reason he decided to crawl out of the woodwork was to cheer on the TPPA.

         His only other contributions this year have been; April 22nd, when he was defending Key and smearing Bailey over pony-tailgate, and; February 1st when he was getting stuck into Catton.
         • Paul 5.1.2.1.1

           2 October 2015 at 12:20 pm

           These trolls are very tiresome.
           • Puckish Rogue 5.1.2.1.1.1

             2 October 2015 at 1:15 pm

             A different opinion to yours doesn’t make someone a troll Paul but then thats your default setting isn’t it, call someone a troll and hope they get banned
             • lprent …

               2 October 2015 at 3:09 pm

               Moderators will make up their own mind. And if I see words overused and out of context, I just add them to the moderated words until their use reverts to something acceptable
6. Mike the Savage One 6

   2 October 2015 at 9:05 am

   The government’s much hailed “investment approach” in social security and “reforms” they brought in over recent years are not what they seem. This has been noticed by Bill Rosenberg who published a paper for the CTU, which I understand Scoop already reported on.

   The whole approach is flawed, and seems primarily designed to simply reduce the costs for government, without taking into consideration wider implications, like risks, costs or benefits for the individuals MSD and WINZ work with.

   Here is an interesting paper on this, well worth a read, as it proves again, we are sold misguided, flawed, misrepresentation using policies, that only make things look better, but do not deliver what is claimed:

   http://union.org.nz/sites/union.org.nz/files/Investment%20Approach%20is%20not%20an%20investment%20approach%20-%20Rosenberg_0.pdf

   And reliable data is being withheld by the government, as this question by Carmel Sepuloni from 17 September to the Associate Minister for Social Development shows:
   http://www.inthehouse.co.nz/video/39670

   Others asked questions before, how the evaluation of reforms and outcomes was going:
   http://publicaddress.net/speaker/how-is-government-evaluating-its-welfare/

   https://nzsocialjusticeblog2013.wordpress.com/2015/04/10/mental-health-and-sole-parent-employment-services-msd-withholds-o-i-a-information-that-may-prove-their-trials-a-failure/
7. esoteric pineapples 7

   2 October 2015 at 9:28 am

   Really surprised that Helen Clark came out in support of the TPPA no matter what she thought of it. It undermines the Labour Party’s position on the TTPA just to start with. It also undermines attempts by the present Labour Party leadership to move towards being a party more in tune with the original Labour Party ideals.
   • Paul 7.1

     2 October 2015 at 9:49 am

     Helen Clark
     a) set the Urewera raids in motion
     b) did not undo neoliberalism

     What did you expect?
     • Draco T Bastard 7.1.1

       2 October 2015 at 10:34 am

       +1

       Clark is as much Third Way as Blair and that means free-trade at all costs.
       • The Lone Harnguer 7.1.1.1

         2 October 2015 at 12:08 pm

         Even Donald Trump is saying “free trade” is damaging the US of A and that they need to move away from that to “fair trade”

         Of course the Republican Party despise him, as hes not going by the agenda.

         Tho Trump in charge of the button, with Ben Carson for running mate could appeal to a lot of US voters who dont trust Mrs Clinton.
         • Paul 7.1.1.1.1

           2 October 2015 at 12:28 pm

           It’s 35 years since Reagan destroyed America.
           Most Americans can see the effects of free trade and ‘free trade agreements’ like NAFTA.
           They are desperate for a candidate not supported by the financiers and large corporates. Hopefully Sanders will be that person, but Americans are so desperate, they might take a punt on Trump.
       • Paul 7.1.1.2

         2 October 2015 at 12:22 pm

         It also means neo-liberalism, just a slightly mellower form.

         I know they name their policies the third way. However, it’s really the same way, buying into the mantra of ‘there’s no alternative’ popularised by Thatcher and her acolytes.
         • Draco T Bastard 7.1.1.2.1

           2 October 2015 at 12:41 pm

           +1
       • Rodel 7.1.1.3

         2 October 2015 at 8:51 pm

         Must admit my disappointment in Helen. Doesn’t seem like the Helen I voted for but I guess people change as their circumstances change.
   • Nessalt 7.2

     2 October 2015 at 9:55 am

     So Helen should toe the party line despite being above politics at a national level? she should be subservient in her role as administrator of the un DEVELOPMENT agency that focuses on sustainable growth in poorer nations?

     Given her legacy in our own countries politics, i was surprised that the one person who would know what benefits poorer nations would come out in support of the TPPA. so it’s a ringing endorsement.

     but you think she should shut up because Labour in NZ knows better right? well done
     • esoteric pineapples 7.2.1

       2 October 2015 at 10:32 am

       Helen has managed to remain quiet on an awful lot of actions of this government that I am certain she is uncomfortable with. Why suddenly make a comment on a political hot button topic like the TPPA where she is actually endorsing the Prime Minister and strengthening his credibility? Especially as it doesn’t in the least part relate to her present role at the United Nations. This is what a good number of people will be asking themselves.
       • maui 7.2.1.1

         2 October 2015 at 10:59 am

         Just a couple of weeks ago Lisa Owen had her on the Nation and pushed her on whether nz should take more refugees. If I remember rightly Clarke said she doesn’t get involved in political issues in nz.
   • One Two 7.3

     2 October 2015 at 10:08 am

     Helen got the role at the UN for services performed on behalf of [ ] in the interest of [ ]

     The UN was founded and funded by [ ] and functions to ensure the continuation of [ ]

     Helen The Insider
     • Paul 7.3.1

       2 October 2015 at 11:49 am

       Yup pretty obvious to those not blinded by ideology and/or money.
   • Enough is Enough 7.4

     2 October 2015 at 10:35 am

     Just like the UK Labour Party has recently done, the New Zealand Labour Party needs to distance itself from its recent Neo-Liberal past.

     Andrew Little should declare that the Labour Party disagrees with the comments of the former Prime Minister and that Labour is now moving in a different direction to that of the previous two Labour Governments.

     It is time to embrace socialism and end corporatism.
     • esoteric pineapples 7.4.1

       2 October 2015 at 10:57 am

       That would be nice, if unlikely. This is another example of the awkwardness of Helen making a statement right now. Labour seems to be gingerly moving to the left but she has forced their hand. She should have known the position she is putting the present Labour leadership in. It’s either a major faux pas or deliberate act of sabotage. I find both options to be extraordinary.
       • Puckish Rogue 7.4.1.1

         2 October 2015 at 11:57 am

         Just consider that the two most popular prime ministers of the mmp era both endorse TPPA

         TPPA will be good for NZ
         • Paul 7.4.1.1.1

           2 October 2015 at 12:18 pm

           Please explain how it will be good for New Zealand.
           Please provide evidence to support this statement as well.

           Otherwise it’s worthless.
           • Puckish Rogue 7.4.1.1.1.1

             2 October 2015 at 12:48 pm

             When the details come out I’ll accept your apology Paul
             • Paul …

               2 October 2015 at 1:50 pm

               So no evidence then, pr?
               Just the usual blasé statement with no back up or support.
               And then you whinge on when I call you out for worthless trolling.
               You add nothing to the debate.

               If you truly believe the TPPA is great for NZ, please explain why.
               • Puckish Rogue …

                 2 October 2015 at 2:20 pm

                 I’ve explained why there shouldn’t be any details and all you’ve done is point to a leaked document that isn’t the final draft

                 But hey if its supported by John Key it must be bad
                 • Paul …

                   2 October 2015 at 2:26 pm

                   I’ll ignore that attempt to divert.

                   I don’t sign contracts without first reading the wording. Do you?

                   And the leaked draft would highlight some serious concerns for anyone who cares about the independence and sovereignty of this country.
             • Paul …

               2 October 2015 at 2:28 pm

               If another party was in charge, would you be happy if they said trust us…..it’s in the best interests of the country?
               • Puckish Rogue …

                 2 October 2015 at 4:00 pm

                 Depends on the circumstances as always
         • half crown 7.4.1.1.2

           2 October 2015 at 3:35 pm

           “TPPA will be good for NZ”

           How do you know? Are you privileged to some information the rest of New Zealand isn’t?
   • alwyn 7.5

     2 October 2015 at 10:57 am

     I don’t find it at all surprising that Helen Clark has come out in support of the TPPA.
     She apparently has a wish to get the job as UN Secretary General. As a realist, and as someone who has always looked out for number 1, she is quite well aware that she hasn’t got a snow-flakes chance in Hell of even being considered unless she has the support of her own Government.
     She has to do whatever John Key wishes her to do, doesn’t she? In fact he doesn’t have to tell her what to do or even mention the subject. She will be smart enough to know that she can’t get the position without the support of her own Government and that there is no way that is anything other than the current Key- led party. She has to keep him onside.
     It doesn’t mean that his support can get her the job of course. Personally I think it will go to someone from Eastern Europe. His opposition will however completely kill her chances and she will kowtow to him wherever necessary.
     • Brillo 7.5.1

       2 October 2015 at 12:49 pm

       As soon as I saw her endorsing TPPA, I thought “She’s scratching his back so that he will scratch hers in her job application.”

       However, Clark didn’t really need to, as he would have endorsed her application anyway, to keep her busy and out of New Zealand. She’d be a lot more trouble to National if she came home and were active once more in politics – in any capacity.
       • alwyn 7.5.1.1

         2 October 2015 at 2:32 pm

         “She’d be a lot more trouble to National if she came home”
         Not nowadays, she wouldn’t.

         John Key would probably have been happy to see her go when she did but that was a long time ago and the longer she has been away the more irrelevant she has become. At the beginning of 2009 she could probably have caused him some bother, as she would have known where all the bodies were buried, and the things that could have caused trouble for a new Government.
         Her coming back now, and trying to take any part in politics, would be more likely to help rather than hurt him. If she said anything at all that Little doesn’t say first she is open, validly, to the charge that she is wrecking her old party.
         No, after this long she is beholden to Key and would be quite helpless to revive any political career in this country. Getting involved at all would lead the Labour Party into being forced to destroy her. They can’t somehow reincarnate her as their leader, can they?
     • RedBaronCV 7.5.2

       2 October 2015 at 8:17 pm

       I read the articles fairly carefully and was left very unsure as to what Helen Clarke had said directly to journalists and in what context.

       And what John Key had said Helen said – which is only his memory / say so and may be well out of context
   • James 7.6

     2 October 2015 at 12:35 pm

     when you say – “no matter what she thought of it” – you infer that she may not be in agreement.

     Do you not understand that people with a greater knowledge than you or I on the mater actually know that this is a good idea.
     • Puckish Rogue 7.6.1

       2 October 2015 at 12:59 pm

       The people of NZ (the lefties anyway) feel that when negotiating a deal they should be told in the smallest detail whats happening

       They also miss the obvious that this is a damn stupid idea
       • maui 7.6.1.1

         2 October 2015 at 1:12 pm

         The smallest details.. like not having overseas companies sueing our Government and not having crown entity operations compromised. Those are not fricking small details! What rational thinking person would have those things up for grabs in a deal anyway.
         • Puckish Rogue 7.6.1.1.1

           2 October 2015 at 1:23 pm

           Is that confirmed or a rumour?
           • Paul 7.6.1.1.1.1

             2 October 2015 at 1:29 pm

             It’s a leak, pr.
             I would have thought you knew that.
             Again I ask, why the blind faith and trust in government?
             • maui …

               2 October 2015 at 1:42 pm

               In totalitarianism all you’ve got is blind faith.
             • Puckish Rogue …

               2 October 2015 at 1:42 pm

               So not confirmed then, just a rumour
               • Paul …

                 2 October 2015 at 1:46 pm

                 A leak, pr.
         • Paul 7.6.1.1.2

           2 October 2015 at 1:27 pm

           Your opinion is usually an infantile barb, or a trite statement, hardly ever supported by any evidence or any coherent explanation.

           Happy to debate the issue of the TPPA with you if you’ll actually discuss the ideas with some supporting evidence.

           You acknowledge we don’t know what’s in the treaty, yet you say I should apologise when we eventually get told.
           Firstly, do you really trust governments to make such a decision without us having any say in the matter?
           Secondly, given the leaks we do know about, aren’t you at all concerned about the costs to medicine and the undermining of our sovereignty to the investor state clauses?
           • Puckish Rogue 7.6.1.1.2.1

             2 October 2015 at 1:55 pm

             First question. Its a trade negotiation so I would expect any negotiations done to be secret.

             Lets say for example something, anything came out in the negotiations and some concerned groups in NZ kicked up a fuss about it, they may not have all the facts but they complain anyway. The opposition would use that as leverage against NZ.

             Second question. Its a leak ,its not confirmed so when the details come we’ll know more. However lets assume there is an extra cost to medicine thats say 5 billion more. Now imagine because of that our diary industry is opened up more and is worth 10 billion

             Now the numbers arn’t important but what is important is how much we give up vs how much we set to gain

             You speak of trust, I trust this government and every government in NZ to do whats best for NZ, thats why we elect them.

             So I trust that NZs negotiaters will get us a favourable deal or they’ll walk away.
             • Paul …

               2 October 2015 at 2:05 pm

               10 billion benefit??? Don’t make figures up.

               The US Govt says max benefit to NZ agriculture from #TPP is 0.01% GDP in 2025.
               • Puckish Rogue …

                 2 October 2015 at 2:13 pm

                 The numbers arn’t important, if it makes you feel better try this:

                 However lets assume there is an extra cost to medicine thats say 5 million more. Now imagine because of that our diary industry is opened up more and is worth 10 million

                 Now the numbers arn’t important but what is important is how much we give up vs how much we set to gain
                 • maui …

                   2 October 2015 at 3:30 pm

                   Is the Dairy Industry going to pay out for the increased prescription costs of people in ill health? How nice of them, maybe we can write that into the deal too.
               • alwyn …

                 2 October 2015 at 3:11 pm

                 Do you have a reference for this claim of only 0.01% of GDP?
                 Current NZ GDP is about $240 billion.
                 Let’s assume it gets to $300 billion by 2025.
                 Then 0.01% of that would be about $30 million/year.
                 Where did your number come from?
                 • maui …

                   2 October 2015 at 3:27 pm

                   http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11370439
                   • alwyn …

                     2 October 2015 at 4:15 pm

                     Thank You. Now I see what he is talking about.
                     From the article you link to we see, after culling the verbiage

                     “”New Zealand’s agricultural growth will be led by gains in its output of dairy and meat products as it increases its exports of these commodities to Japan, Canada, the United States and Mexico,” the report says.

                     But the impact on gross domestic product would be almost imperceptible – 0.01 per cent or one-hundredth of 1 per cent.

                     Another modelling exercise, by I Cheong at the Asian Development Bank Institute last year, estimated the boost from the TPP agreement to New Zealand’s GDP by 2027 as nearly 1 per cent.”

                     The 0.01% figure quoted is the effect on the US GDP, not the NZ GDP. This is currently about $US 18 trillion. Allowing for growth to say $US 24 trillion by 2025 this would be about $US 2.4 billion or around $4 billion New Zealand dollars. That is vastly more than the implied figure of only 0.01% of the New Zealand GDP, and would be a bit more than the 1% figure derived by the ADB.
                   • maui …

                     2 October 2015 at 8:37 pm

                     From my point of view estimating the likely GDP benefits in 10 years time is like picking who will win the football world cup. The world is facing some big challenges right now and I expect that it’s only the beginning.
             • tracey …

               2 October 2015 at 8:25 pm

               And yet the European versian of this is being disclosed to people in far greater detail. I guess they don’t need to keep their bargaining positions secret.

               Given we are spying on our allies and they on us (as admitted by Key) no one has a secret position anymore OR.

               You need to at least think for yourself rather than just parroting key and Groser and Mapp. A comment you made above suggests you haven’t actually read any of the documents that have been revealed,s o your only basis for your opinion is what those you support have said about it? Which is your entitlement but impacts the calibre of your offerings to the discussion.
             • tracey …

               2 October 2015 at 8:28 pm

               “they may not have all the facts but they complain anyway. ”

               whereas you dont seem to have read any documents that have been revealled but support it anyway cos Mr Key and Mr Groser have told you to trust them.

               remember Mr key may be well liked but polls suggest he is not ell trusted/believed…

               Just today we see that he was VERY wrong to trust the defence force and to impugn Mr Stephenson. His judgment is not good PR.
       • tracey 7.6.1.2

         2 October 2015 at 8:22 pm

         I wonder why in the USA even if it is signed this week, it still has to pass through their political process to get accepted, which includes publishing the deal for 60 days.

         No automatic ratification and circumvention of the people there…

         And in the USA it is the Right that object most strongly, which rather wrecks the lefty meme peddled by Mr Mapp and parroted by some here.
8. ianmac 8

   2 October 2015 at 10:54 am

   Oh no!
   “How well students perform in the classroom will soon play a part in how much funding a school gets, says the Education Minister.

   Speaking at the Post-Primary Teacher’s Association (PPTA) annual conference in Wellington on Thursday, Hekia Parata said student achievement would “absolutely” be a factor in a review of the school funding system.”

   Fraught with problems and another Parata U-turn.
   http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/72605207/student-achievement-to-be-used-to-fund-schools-under-new-model
   • Tautoko Mangō Mata 8.1

     2 October 2015 at 3:42 pm

     This Listener editorial from March of last year gives the arguments against this ridiculous proposal which is driven by ideology and certainly not by rational thought.

     “There’s a good reason why police, lawyers and judges, for example, are not incentivised on the basis of securing convictions: it would make a mockery of the justice system. The same precautions need to apply in education.
     Stumbling blocks abound. How to compare a school where all the students sit NCEA with one in which half the kids opt for Cambridge or the International Baccalaureate exams? How to compare a school where a large proportion of NCEA credits come from exams and traditional academic subjects with one that leans heavily on less-demanding vocational courses?”

     http://www.listener.co.nz/commentary/editorial/editorial-dealing-to-deciles/
     • greywarshark 8.1.1

       2 October 2015 at 4:12 pm

       What’s wrong with it Tautoko Mango Mata? They do it in the USA and we know they are the fount of all wisdom. Of course there was that case where teachers were under pressure to produce perfect results and the one who was poorest and needed the job most was found to be coaching the answers.

       I think they call it a moral hazard. Or is it immoral hazard” Anyway if we don’t know about such things I am sure Parata will know all about it from personal experience.
       • mpledger 8.1.1.1

         2 October 2015 at 6:46 pm

         And what happens when a kid who wants to do Calculus for career reasons but will only get an achieved whereas the school would rather she did statistics because she’d get an excellence? While this may be an obvious sign of coercion there can be subtle ones … like making kids need all “merit” credits at level 2 in a exam heavy subject in order to continue to level 3 but only achieved for internally assessed courses.
         • greywarshark 8.1.1.1.1

           2 October 2015 at 7:16 pm

           That’s an interesting insight. The different ways that policies can be twisted for unintended consequences! But when the policies have already been tested overseas with monitoring and results are known, then there is no excuse = they are definitely toxic.
   • tracey 8.2

     2 October 2015 at 8:29 pm

     another friday dumping…
   • RedBaronCV 8.3

     2 October 2015 at 8:32 pm

     Okay so schools with students not doing so well suddenly get less money – self defeating isn’t it.
     Perhaps our politicians need a merit in a number of subjects before they are turned loose in cabinet. They could cram for “the cabinet exams” once they are elected and of course we would need to see marks and league tables so we could make the right judgements & incentivise with a salary only the best y’know?
9. Paul 9

   2 October 2015 at 12:17 pm

   Brian Rudman scathing about Key’s panda distraction.

   ‘It rather misses the question: should we help fund China’s attempts to save one of its endangered species – it uses the high rentals collected on panda hires for panda research at home – or should we be using that money to protect and promote our own endangered species. After all, we have a few of them.
   The last count I saw listed 2788 of our native plants and animals as endangered. In his doctoral thesis, scientist Mark Seabrook-Davison calculated that only 6 per cent, or 188, of New Zealand’s recorded threatened species were being actively managed.
   The Department of Conservation is grossly under-funded and is expected to seek sponsors and volunteers to assist it in its vital work. How perilous this cost-cutting is was highlighted a month ago, when amateur deerstalkers were hired to cull pukeko on Motutapu Island in the Hauraki Gulf. After two days of blasting with shotguns on this protected reserve, four priceless takahe were found dead in the pile of 600 pukeko corpses.
   There are fewer than 300 takahe in the world. Yet somehow, the civil servants on an island sanctuary entrusted with a flock of 21 of them, presided over the massacre of a fifth of them.
   More than a month on, no explanation or prosecution has been announced. There’s been no clamour from the government. No minister has resigned. Instead, our masters coo over giant pandas, of which there are at least 1800.’

   More here…..

   http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11522248
   • greywarshark 9.1

     2 October 2015 at 7:19 pm

     So we can say that no Minister or Civil servant was harmed by this slaughter. I guess the National Party’s verdict on that would be manslaughter!
   • tracey 9.2

     2 October 2015 at 8:29 pm

     the Wanganui Chronicle has a good article about Key’s fading star too
10. marty mars 10

    2 October 2015 at 12:47 pm

    williams you were always loose but now you are just a bowel movement

    Mr Williams was asked by an audience member if there should be encouragement for more Māori culture and Te Reo use in New Zealand jails.
    “My response is that New Zealand runs on English – and that’s the reality of it – we speak English,” Mr Williams replied. Mr Williams continued, saying: “[If] you want to go and get a job, don’t bowl up speaking Māori.”

    Mike Williams operates literacy programmes in prisons throughout the country.

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/285865/'you-want-to-get-a-job,-don't-bowl-up-speaking-maori‘
    • Morrissey 10.1

      2 October 2015 at 1:01 pm

      Don’t forget that Williams was in the same class at school as that notorious Māori-baiter Paul Holmes. This was not simply an inadvertent comment by Williams; he had plenty of time to consider what he would say. Williams’ foolish comments represent the ugly actuality of rural Hawkes Bay racism, which clearly hasn’t been eradicated by his decades spent in the company of Labour Party liberals.

      The pity of this is that Williams usually shuts up and says nothing, except to repeat “I agree with Matthew”.[1] Why would he have imagined he was suddenly capable of opening his trap?

      [1] http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-28092015/#comment-1075674
      • mac1 10.1.1

        2 October 2015 at 1:59 pm

        Morrissey, did you realise that you have begun your comment with a ‘guilt by association” argument? That needs strong condemnation, and weakens what you have said later- especially by being associated with your first argument.

        Can I say to you that all of what you write is absolute tripe because you have used a faulty argument at the start, which is after all in itself ‘guilt by association’?
        • Morrissey 10.1.1.1

          2 October 2015 at 7:36 pm

          Morrissey, did you realise that you have begun your comment with a ‘guilt by association” argument?

          If Williams had not made a stupid and incendiary dismissal of Māori language, your argument would have merit. But since Williams did exactly that, it is surely reasonable to mention his background, which includes a close friendship, first at school then later when they were both prominent public figures, with a notorious racist.
    • maui 10.2

      2 October 2015 at 1:35 pm

      As a bit of a sidetrack, I was listening to newstalk last night and the host was getting all shitty that Tariana Turia wants Chris Brown in the country to talk to South Aucklanders about domestic violence. It was funny having a middle-aged white dude being so forthright on who might be the best messenger to Maori/Pasifika on these issues. I naturally assumed that Turia would have a much better idea on what might help than the radio jockey. A social worker in south Auckland then phoned up and said having Chris Brown here would be useful and then pointed out that we gave Tony Veitch a second chance, then the host quickly ended the call. It’s funny how people speaking the truth are dismissed so easily.
      • tracey 10.2.1

        2 October 2015 at 8:35 pm

        I thought that about Veitch too…
    • tracey 10.3

      2 October 2015 at 8:34 pm

      Thenit is a shame he is working so widely in our prisons. He might want to read some work from JUstice Beacroft which indicates those Maori Youth connected to Culture and Reo re-offend in much fewer numbers than those who don’t.

      “The longitudinal studies have identified that an important protective factor for Māori young people is a strong sense of Māori identity and connection to their culture.”

      Williams is insulting Maori by suggesting they cannot be fluent in English and Reo.

      http://www.rethinking.org.nz/assets/JustSpeak/JustSpeak%20-%20Maori%20and%20the%20Criminal%20Justice%20System%20-%20A%20Youth%20Perspective.pdf
11. Morrissey 11

    2 October 2015 at 12:50 pm

    Backers of Al Qaeda, ISIS and Al Nusra
    say RUSSIA is ‘throwing gasoline on fire’

    Outrageous Hypocrisy ALERT!

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/30/russia-launches-first-airstrikes-against-targets-in-syria-says-us?CMP=EMCNEWEML6619I2
12. Puckish Rogue 12

    2 October 2015 at 1:13 pm

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/285802/dotcom-case-crown-finds-original-extradition-notices

    Just in case people were worried
    • Kevin Welsh 12.1

      2 October 2015 at 1:43 pm

      Not really. Even if Dotcom is extradited the chances of the plaintiffs getting a court victory are probably slim. Pretty sure the ‘Betamax’ precedent will be cited before its all over.

      http://blog.legalsolutions.thomsonreuters.com/legal-research/today-1984-supreme-court-decides-sony-betamax-case/

      “a company was not liable for manufacturing a technology that some customers may use for copyright-infringing purposes, so long as the technology is capable of substantial “noninfringing uses.”
      • Puckish Rogue 12.1.1

        2 October 2015 at 1:59 pm

        I don’t care if hes prosecuted or not i just want the guy out of NZ
        • thatguynz 12.1.1.1

          2 October 2015 at 3:19 pm

          What an asinine comment. I want you out of NZ too. Regrettably however you seemingly have every much as right to be here as he does.
          • Puckish Rogue 12.1.1.1.1

            2 October 2015 at 4:08 pm

            Well no he has permanant residence status which can be revoked and the sooner it is the better

            I mean yes he did do National a big favour with his internet party thing but the funs over and now he has to leave
    • McFlock 12.2

      2 October 2015 at 1:51 pm

      lol
      I’m still worried – they’re running an expensive court case after an armed police raid and they still couldn’t get the paperwork together or confirm that the legal requirements had been fulfilled.

      This is basic stuff that should be easily achievable off the bat, rather than frantically searching offices to find necessary paperwork or not knowing whether ministers had been informed.

      Shit, I’m disorganised as fuck, but even I know to check off all the requirements and make sure I have everything before I go into a big meeting. Right up there with straightening the tie and making sure your fly is done up before you walk in the door.
      • b waghorn 12.2.1

        2 October 2015 at 3:42 pm

        In pr’s world the boss having his fly done up just slows down his chances of promotion.
        • Puckish Rogue 12.2.1.1

          2 October 2015 at 4:11 pm

          That actually made me laugh, well done 🙂
    • tracey 12.3

      2 October 2015 at 8:36 pm

      Interesting that the originals were in the Judges office the whole time… and no one knew… not the Clerk… not the Judge… not the parties who must have filed them with their other documents…
13. The Chairman 13

    2 October 2015 at 1:51 pm

    Anne Tolley: ‘We need to talk’ and it might get uncomfortable

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/72598810/anne-tolley-we-need-to-talk-and-it-might-get-uncomfortable

    Next steps for CYF overhaul
    https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/next-steps-cyf-overhaul
    • Paul 13.1

      2 October 2015 at 1:54 pm

      Anne Tolley isn’t very popular if the comments below her article are anything to go by.
      • The Chairman 13.1.1

        2 October 2015 at 2:11 pm

        Indeed.

        And here is the flaw in her approach:

        http://union.org.nz/sites/union.org.nz/files/Investment%20Approach%20is%20not%20an%20investment%20approach%20-%20Rosenberg_0.pdf
      • Puckish Rogue 13.1.2

        2 October 2015 at 2:11 pm

        Probably by the same people that cry eugenics at the drop of a hat
        • Paul 13.1.2.1

          2 October 2015 at 2:14 pm

          Still waiting your evidence that the TPP will benefit NZ.
          Or are you just dipping in, here there and everywhere with your smart Alec comments?
          • Puckish Rogue 13.1.2.1.1

            2 October 2015 at 2:28 pm

            I’ve explained my position, all you have is a leaked draft.

            When i was negotiating the purchase of my first house I didn’t pay what the seller was asking, the seller didn’t accept my first offer either.

            The house plans for my first new home at the start were different to the end plans.

            Get it?
            • Paul 13.1.2.1.1.1

              2 October 2015 at 2:31 pm

              Your analogy fails.

              When you bought your house, you knew the price.
              We don’t know the price of the TPP.
              It’s a secret.

              Imagine if you bought the house because you trusted the vendor would do a fair deal. And only found out the cost four years later. And could do nothing about it.

              That’s the TPP.
            • Paul 13.1.2.1.1.2

              2 October 2015 at 2:37 pm

              Lots of leaked chapters actually.
              Quite a lot of evidence that the TPP is not in NZ’s national interests.
              But what’s concrete evidence when put alongside blind faith?

              Is John Key looking after your property portfolio that well, pr?
              I sense I’ve found your motivation for supporting Key’s form of crony capitalism.
              Unbridled self interest.

              https://wikileaks.org/tpp-enviro/pressrelease.html
              http://www.politico.com/agenda/story/2015/06/tpp-deal-leaked-pharma-000126
              https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2015/07/new-leaked-tpp-chapter-reveals-countries-converging-anti-user-copyright
              
            • Tautoko Mangō Mata 13.1.2.1.1.3

              2 October 2015 at 4:16 pm

              Sorry, this house sale analogy doesn’t work so I FIFY..
              Let’s say you (NZ Public) and I (National Cabinet) are the clients buying a house. Our salesman/negotiator, (Groser) is not providing us with the information as to exactly what is included in the “sale”(TPPA) and will tell us only after he has signed a deal that we cannot alter. We are not allowed to look at the house (proposed text) until we sign although we have been lucky enough to get a floor plan off a builder (Wikileaks) who did some work on it. We are not being told whether the furniture and kitchen silver is included ( extended patent times for biologics, etc.) What is more, it is only my decision (the Cabinet) whether to buy or not and not yours because I want that house regardless of whether you do and quite frankly, I don’t give a rat’s posterior what you think because you are breathless, uniformed and irrelevant.
              • RedBaronCV …

                2 October 2015 at 8:24 pm

                And the clincher “I also don’t give a toss because you are goimg to be living in it not meeee.”
            • tracey 13.1.2.1.1.4

              2 October 2015 at 8:39 pm

              Were you being spied on by the vendor so they knew what you would go to anyway? Cos that is the actually analogy PR. You can’t miss out the part where we and our allies to the proposed TPP are spying on each other, and if this deal is so crucial, spying on what positions nations are taking. I’ve put this to Mr Mapp several times and he just says nothing.
14. Paul 14

    2 October 2015 at 2:59 pm

    Privatisation really improves customer service.
    Spark presently have over a 2 hour wait on answering the phone!
    • tc 14.1

      2 October 2015 at 3:46 pm

      Moutter has slashed via several redundancy waves to keep profits at an unsustainable level.

      Alot of knowledge and capability has been happy to depart an organisation they perceive as heading towards the rocks.

      It’s just a logo and marketing fluff now, Chorus and others actually run the network.
    • Puckish Rogue 14.2

      2 October 2015 at 4:24 pm

      Just letting you know that Spark went public in 1990 so 25 years ago but yes Telecom certainly had better customer service than in the old post office days
      • Paul 14.2.1

        2 October 2015 at 5:07 pm

        Really?
        • McFlock 14.2.1.1

          2 October 2015 at 5:16 pm

          Nah, not really.

          But it’s a myth he likes to put around.
15. reason 15

    2 October 2015 at 3:01 pm

    I wonder if puckish rouge supports the sexual assault on females by sabin like characters in the customs department if they learn that the females are visiting Kim Dotcom……

    I think his hate for the fat german would make him quite comfortable with this Sabinization of our customs department ….

    Regarding his other fetish ……The TPPA is a corporate take-over of our countries laws and he’s really comfortable with that ………..
    • Puckish Rogue 15.1

      2 October 2015 at 4:13 pm

      What are you on or what are you talking about? An answer to either question would be sufficient
      • Paul 15.1.1

        2 October 2015 at 5:08 pm

        You support the TPPA without question.
    • Paul 15.2

      2 October 2015 at 5:06 pm

      His faith in Key resembles the blind hero worship of the brown shirts.
16. Puckish Rogue 16

    2 October 2015 at 4:15 pm

    I know everyone here will be glad to see Paul Henry making a good go on the radio, no doubt it will lead over to the tv part of the show 🙂

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/tv-radio/72647583/paul-henry-a-surprise-winner-in-radio-survey
    • McFlock 16.1

      2 October 2015 at 4:48 pm

      An increase from 1 to 7% in wellington?

      But according to the surveyors they didn’t run a survey in the first half of this year…
      • alwyn 16.1.1

        2 October 2015 at 5:46 pm

        “they didn’t run a survey in the first half of this year”
        What has that got to do with PR’s comment, or to the article he linked to for that matter?
        Neither of them claim that it was being compared with the first half of the year. PR doesn’t mention a date and the linked article only talks about a comparison with the previous survey.
        • McFlock 16.1.1.1

          2 October 2015 at 6:00 pm

          Sigh.
          Paul Henry got his latest opportunity for failure in early April 2015.

          In the article PR linked to (that you read so carefully) they clearly identified the survey, and report the findings:

          The Mike Hosking Breakfast is a juggernaut, with an 18.7 percent share, up from 18.4 at the last survey. Radio Live’s Paul Henry show, a cross-platform programme that also screens on TV3 and streams online, has gained too, from 4.5 to 5 percent in Auckland. But it has an even bigger share in Wellington, where it has streaked ahead, from a 1.8 share to 6.8.

          (my bold)

          If the survey is supposed to be done biannually then maybe the launch of phs might have overlapped with the survey period. But my link clearly says “No survey in 1-2015”. So what was “the last survey” from which phs made its “gains”?

          I’m surprised that neither you nor pr can spot such obvious holes in reporting – but then the lack of comprehension ability goes some way to explaining why you’re both tory fuckwits.
    • tracey 16.2

      2 October 2015 at 8:41 pm

      But then the show he replaced didn’t beam to radio and henry already had a radio audience… so it’s not apples with apples.
17. Mrs Brillo 17

    2 October 2015 at 5:23 pm

    A few days ago the topic of the NZ Herald gaming its own comments section was raised here.

    I have been watching one particular story today, so here’s what has happened so far.
    Brian Rudman’s “Don’t waste takahe’s cash on panda porn” was posted at 9.24am. (Presumably too late for the print edition – will it be in that tomorrow?)

    The 24 comments the Herald opted to reproduce are all denoted as having been made at c.11.48am. However, they were not actually posted till after 1pm.

    I made a comment on the article sometime around 12.30 and that has not been posted. In fact it is now 5.25pm and no further comments have been added at all. That seems odd.

    (The tone of the existing comments was pretty nearly 100% against the government. The usual RWNJs were absent, having decided that this one was too hot too handle.)
18. alwyn 18

    2 October 2015 at 6:07 pm

    During the 2005 election campaign many left-leaning people complained that the photograph of Helen Clark used in the Iwi/Kiwi ads was unfair, and that it had been doctored. I never thought that it was flattering but it did appear to be just one of the photos of her that you would expect to see in a newspaper, and I never thought it was unfair or distorted.
    An example is here
    http://www.electionads.org.nz/?p=11459
    Jane Kelsey has written an article on the TPPA on The Daily Blog and attached a photo of Ms Clark.
    What did Helen do to get Ms Kelsey so p*d off?
    http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2015/10/01/helen-clark-needs-to-heed-her-own-un-advisers-on-tppa/
    I have never seen such an appalling photo. Even her worst enemies wouldn’t regard it as fair
    • tracey 18.1

      2 October 2015 at 8:43 pm

      …and that was what struck you most about the article? Fair enough I suppose.
    • marty mars 18.2

      2 October 2015 at 8:50 pm

      get over ‘looks’ dick – it is irrelevant at best – you are so judgmental it makes me realise how insecure you must be
19. Penny Bright 19

    2 October 2015 at 8:45 pm

    Perhaps the anonymous ‘Editor’ responsible for today’s NZ Herald ‘Editorial’, could please provide evidence proving that I have ever stated anything that was factually inaccurate, concerning Auckland Council, or Auckland Council CCOs?

    Penny Bright

    ‘Anti-corruption WHISTLE-BLOWER’

    2016 Auckland Mayoral candidate.

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