Open mike 03/10/2013

Written By: - Date published: 6:30 am, October 3rd, 2013 - 137 comments
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Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose. The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy). Step right up to the mike…

137 comments on “Open mike 03/10/2013 ”

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  1. Sanctuary 1
    3 October 2013 at 7:40 am

    Goodness me, Bernard Orsman has dropped all pretense at fairness in his latest splenetic attack on Len Brown, while the Herald seems to be searching frantically for an issue that’ll somehow damaged Len Brown before voting closes. I know the Herald is a Tabloid, but their obvious dislike of Brown is reaching Daily Mail levels.

    • Paul 1.1
      3 October 2013 at 8:04 am

      And if you ever wanted proof the the Herald and the rest of the corporate ‘mainstream’ media is biased as hell, note the following….
      Yesterday the latest Roy Morgan poll has Labour on 37% up 4.5%, as close as it’s been to National in 5 years. And from the Herald, Dominion Post, Stuff…
      Nothing to see here…move on.

      Apparently ‘berms’ are worthy of headlines for 2 days.
      And the revolting opinions of a sexist out of touch old man.


      The Herald is “shite”.

    • tinfoilhat 1.2
      3 October 2013 at 8:23 am

      It’s not just the Herald that is anti Brown – he is generally thought to be a useless Mayor by most but will get back in on the back of a disinterested voting turnoutI it would be nice to have a real change and new start with John Minto but he has burnt too many bridges and been vilified in the press too many times.

    • Tracey 1.3
      3 October 2013 at 9:12 am

      BUT Len is making us pay to have a parade or reception for TNZ. He is blatantly electioneering on the public purse.

      The Silver ferns have WON world titles and not had parade down queen street.

    • Populuxe1 1.4
      3 October 2013 at 4:11 pm

      I think Len Brown managed to do that entirely by himself in his pathetic handling of the Ports of Auckland dispute.

  2. David H 2
    3 October 2013 at 8:12 am

    Simon Bridges on the Next Post BUT someone missed this Plonker(My local MP) Never seen him in Levin tho’

  3. Colonial Viper 3
    3 October 2013 at 8:17 am

    The great strike of 1913 – a new podcast by Peter Clayworth

    A friend sent this to me last night and it is a must listen.

    http://newzealandhistory.podbean.com/2013/10/01//

    • Rosie 3.1
      3 October 2013 at 10:32 am

      Thank you. Such a fascinating event in our history. Look forward to listening to it later.

      Thanks too, to all those who have posted doco links, who I have never acknowledged. This site is a great place for learning.

    • joe90 3.2
      3 October 2013 at 1:39 pm

      I was in Waihi earlier in the week, where history is still very much alive although oddly enough todays miners are regarded as the scabs, and a mate told me about his grandfathers brief experience as one of the Huntly coal miners who turned up in solidarity with the 1912 striking miners.

      Shortly after their arrival they fled for their lives mainly on foot from mounted company goons who pursued them with a murderous intent from Waihi to Ngatea where they encountered a local ferry owner who allowed them to board his vessel and they were evacuated down the Piako river to safety in Thames.

  4. risildowgtn 4
    3 October 2013 at 8:18 am

    Guy was a Horowhenua district Councillor for years before becoming an MP..

    Useless back then and just as useless now….

    What you expect from a lifestyle farmer?

    • Rosie 4.1
      3 October 2013 at 10:27 am

      True, he is useless. Kind of reminds me of a stone age man when I see him on TV. The thing is he used that “farmer” identity to get all the redneck votes in Horowhenua. As far as I can tell folks(the ones I talk to at least) on the coast are still behind him and have no idea how the govt has been screwing the country for the last 5 years. They just like and blindly trust that family guy/farmer type thing going on.

      • thatguynz 4.1.1
        3 October 2013 at 2:42 pm

        I’m regrettably in this idiots electorate and I’m yet to hear anyone speak highly of him. In some respects he seems to be a “miracle MP” as no-one is owning up to having voted for him! That all being said however, none of the other parties really did themselves any favours by running anybody credible against him either..

        • Rogue Trooper 4.1.1.1
          3 October 2013 at 3:17 pm

          an immaculate election then

        • Rosie 4.1.1.2
          3 October 2013 at 3:25 pm

          Interesting TGNZ. Thats good to hear. Maybe I just know all the rednecks. (That region is my birthplace so I can say that lol, I don’t mean to run down another’s turf). It’s a pity things went a bit pear shaped for Darren Hughes. Hope you get someone next year who can pull off a really kick arse campaign against Guy. Good luck.

  5. North 5
    3 October 2013 at 8:23 am

    Wonder if Tracy was on board Flight Number: 757 Big Fat Dinner Wank and if so, what she had for dins’ ? Johnny Junket with P(r)awns maybe ?

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/9237216/PM-keen-on-strong-links-with-Abbott

  6. Tracey 6
    3 October 2013 at 9:27 am

    This is surely from the WHAT THE FUCK file?

    Cullen is proposing and banks agreeing that when we get our kiwisaver payouts HALF should be by annuity and means tested.

    Changing the rules half way through… ???

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/personal-finance/news/article.cfm?c_id=12&objectid=11133013

    Cullen says “Dr Cullen adds that “we should not leave to our children and grandchildren harder choices than we are prepared to make ourselves and gradual adjustment is preferable to “big bang pyrotechnics”. Good stuff! ”

    This from a guy on a healthy tax payer funded pension and travel allowance. No wonder national had so much trouble landing hits on him during the labour government. He was one of theirs in disguise.

    The writer then states

    “At first glance the negative response from financial advisors might seem strange given that Code Standard 1 in the Code of Professional Conduct for AFAs says you have to put client’s interests first so anything that reduces cost would seem a good thing. But the reality is that many financial advisors outside the banks who advise on KiwiSaver tend to limit their recommendations to KiwiSaver providers which pay commission and those KiwiSaver providers nine times out of ten have much higher fees than the default providers so the PC initiative is a direct threat to those financial advisors business models. If Mum and Dad switch the trailing fee stops.”

    Yup the financial advising industry has REALLY learned its lesson!

  7. tc 7
    3 October 2013 at 9:33 am

    KSaver is too little too late for many people and between this and the dicking around shonkeys dealers have dealt it why would you be bothedd.

    Yet again instead of templating it off a working system like Australian super we invent something weaker, less effective and prone to political interference, just like UFB etc.

  8. jcuknz 8
    3 October 2013 at 10:19 am

    I went to an advisor once when I was made redundant in the old days when plenty was handed out.
    First visit was free … he did nothing but talk about how wonderful he was.
    Second [and last visit] he was incapable of advising other than the usual investment claptrap and couldn’t express an opinion about my suggestion …. and it cost me.

    Then when I was thinking of buying a property I approached a valuer and he said based on prices for recent sales in the area it was worth $XXX. What he didn’t know but fortunately I did that the property he based his opinion on had the pole foundations for a house all ready for building. Not a bare section I was looking at.

    EXPERTS! You can keep the useless twits thankyou … I can make a mess of my life without them.

  9. karol 9
    3 October 2013 at 10:26 am

    I missed this announcement. Excellent! AlJazeera will have a channel on Freeview from Nov 1st.

    From today [31 Aug 2013], on SKY channel 090, Al Jazeera’s offering of news, documentaries and programmes from over seventy bureaus worldwide will be beamed into nearly half of New Zealand homes reaching around two million people.

    And from 1st November, Al Jazeera will be on Freeview HD channel 16, broadcasting live and free to air.

    I turn on AJ’s Newshour when I wake in the morning, and have been contemplating what to turn to when Face is no longer available on FTA, analogue TV.

    • The Al1en 9.1
      3 October 2013 at 11:06 am

      Nice, at last some grown up news on freeview.
      Long been m.i.a on 1, 3 and 10.

      • Rogue Trooper 9.1.1
        3 October 2013 at 12:19 pm

        runs on the board Miss Ford

        • The Al1en 9.1.1.1
          3 October 2013 at 1:18 pm

          Depends on who’s counting, but never be afraid to swing the bat ’cause the home crowd don’t like losing.

          • Rogue Trooper 9.1.1.1.1
            3 October 2013 at 1:23 pm

            just as likely to up-stumps due to poor visibility.

            • The Al1en 9.1.1.1.1.1
              3 October 2013 at 1:29 pm

              Yeah, so it would seem.

              • Rogue Trooper …
                3 October 2013 at 1:41 pm

                appearances may deceive; Read the Alasdair Thompson link, for example. Theocracy by another route.
                btw, I see from the side-bar that TDB has an open-mike thread / facility. I enjoy some of the articles on that site, yet not enough to defect.

                • Tracey …
                  3 October 2013 at 2:54 pm

                  Alasdair Thompson who was abducted by aliens and returned with someone else inside him?

                • The Al1en …
                  3 October 2013 at 3:33 pm

                  “appearances may deceive; Read the Alasdair Thompson link, for example. Theocracy by another route.
                  btw, I see from the side-bar that TDB has an open-mike thread / facility. I enjoy some of the articles on that site, yet not enough to defect.”

                  People see what they want to see, but then that’s beholders for you.
                  Beauty isn’t always skin deep, though zits most definitely always are.

                  Never read, visited or been on TDB, and not being a defector by nature, I’ll probably pass.
                  But thanks for the heads up.

    • Ron 9.2
      3 October 2013 at 4:18 pm

      Great news but who is paying for AJ to be on Freeview. Not Sky presumably

  10. jcuknz 10
    3 October 2013 at 10:27 am

    I have considered KSaver a poor too little scheme since it started in view of the fact that all through my service I took my flatmate’s advise and contributed to GSF/NPF and accepted every rise in deductions as they came and ended up paying 15% in the last years.
    What you don’t see you do not miss … but it is nice now.

    The trouble for the self employed who are so vocally anti that they unfortunately see it going … so I bless National for bringing in PAYE and the deductions above.

  11. logie97 11
    3 October 2013 at 10:41 am

    … surfing the channels last night and came across the 3Deg item on Alasdair Thompson.
    What was the reason for this item?
    Because he has found god?
    Has he changed?
    Well, we learned that apparently he doesn’t express his prejudices now.

    • fender 11.1
      3 October 2013 at 12:16 pm

      I think it was an attempt to induce guilt in those who were outraged at his outrageous comments, because it made him consider swallowing all his sleeping pills. I liked the admission that his wife had said “he needed this”, and wonder how the poor woman has survived so long living with this old school chauvinist. I’d say he’s changed in that he now realises his ancient prejudices are no longer relevant today, much to his disappointment. But at least we know he’s far from starving to death in his old age.

      He made me think of Srylands for some reason.

    • bad12 11.2
      3 October 2013 at 1:10 pm

      Yes one of those moments when i become more positive that kicking the appliance to pieces would be a jolly good idea,

      What the f**k was that irrelevancy doing on our TV’s in prime time, will we in the future have to endure the mea culpa of every f**king Neanderthalic Retard has been who has made a fool of Himself in public,

      What i cannot believe is that NZonAir gives public money to those people who dream up such tortuous bovine defecation to beam into our homes…

    • Rogue Trooper 11.3
      3 October 2013 at 1:34 pm

      Alasdair Thompson , for those who like to read, or have bleeding slow computers.

  12. geoff 12
    3 October 2013 at 10:49 am

    Looks like Reserve Bank governor, Graeme Wheeler, want’s to put interest rates up to 8%.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/9239001/RBNZ-sees-mortgages-at-8pc

    That would pop the housing bubble….and send thousands into bankruptcy.

    • KJT 12.1
      3 October 2013 at 12:59 pm

      That is totally insane.

      Mind you, killing the rest of the economy, destroying manufactured exports and delivering windfall profits to offshore banks, currency speculators and finance companies, to prevent the Auckland housing market rising, always was.

      • Draco T Bastard 12.1.1
        3 October 2013 at 2:21 pm

        And that is exactly what the reserve bank was designed to do.

        • jcuknz 12.1.1.1
          4 October 2013 at 9:21 am

          People who make a financial misjudgement pay the price. Unless one is on a very high income taking out a $600T mortgage at current interest rates is just plain dumb. They are bound to increase, you’d have to be a fool to ignore that fact.

    • bad12 12.2
      3 October 2013 at 1:14 pm

      What Graeham forgot to mention is that He will crank those rates up to 8% right in the middle of the first term of the next Government,

      Unless the incoming Labour/Green Government takes such decisions out of the Governor’s hands that is…

      • KJT 12.2.1
        3 October 2013 at 2:41 pm

        Like National withdrawing fiance to Auckland as punishment for electing a “left” mayor.
        When any amount of money would have been available to fatten up Auckland assets for sale.

        Maybe we need a mortgage/business loan payers strike. E.G. Refuse to pay more than the old interest rate.

        This is particularly bad news for our last remaining productive businesses.

    • saarbo 12.3
      3 October 2013 at 3:23 pm

      yes, well telegraphing this will have everyone fixing their mortages for 5 years…and then increasing interest rates wont have any affect. They dont normally telegraph for that reason, strange.

  13. Ugly Truth 13
    3 October 2013 at 11:02 am

    “The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the U.S. Government can’t pay its own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our Government’s reckless fiscal policies. … Increasing America’s debt weakens us domestically and internationally. Leadership means that “the buck stops here.” Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better.” Senator Obama, 2006

    [lprent: A link would be helpful. For some strange reason we’ve found that some of these quotes are often quoted out of context. Giving a link to your source often helps people understand the context.

    Also stating *why* you thought that this was worth bringing to our attention would also be useful as well. But I will be generous and add some context for you…. 😈

    The next vote for raising the debt ceiling in the US isn’t due for another two weeks. It is expected that the tea-party nutters will be as obnoxious as they were six months or so ago. Of course they are less interested in reducing the debt than trying to demonstrate their bigotry against having to endure black president who makes speeches pointing out the underlying problem.

    But there does appear to be a more immediate crisis there. The right-wing-nutters are refusing to pass in a timely manner an authority to pay federal employees.

    This isn’t a passing phase. There is considerable evidence that extremist nutters on the right in the US are stupidly destroying their form of “democracy” by putting the country into a permanent crisis.

    See how much more effective a comment is with a little context? I suggest you try it as I won’t be quite so helpful next time. ]

    • Ugly Truth 13.1
      3 October 2013 at 11:50 am

      lprent,

      Happy to oblige.

      http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/256288/senator-barack-obama-explaining-his-2006-vote-against-raising-debt-limit-andrew-c-mcca

      This isn’t about left-right politics. It is about something more fundamental, the unsustainable monetary policy in which the central banks gradually bleed wealth out of the local economies via usury.

      • lprent 13.1.1
        3 October 2013 at 11:56 am

        I’d partially agree… However that usury has been a around for a while and countries have developed despite it. It has also provided the required capital for countries including NZ in the 19th century to bootstrap themselves.

        However the US also appears to have a more fundamental problem – a political system that isn’t coping with dealing with the political issue of repaying debt. Read the last link in my additions.

        • Ugly Truth 13.1.1.1
          3 October 2013 at 12:51 pm

          It has also provided the required capital for countries including NZ in the 19th century to bootstrap themselves.

          Countries do not require offshore capital in order to bootstrap themselves. How do you think the early countries got started?

          • lprent 13.1.1.1.1
            3 October 2013 at 1:11 pm

            How do you think the early countries got started?

            Very very slowly. You should read some archeology.

            • Draco T Bastard 13.1.1.1.1.1
              3 October 2013 at 2:23 pm

              And that disproves what UT said how?

              All NZ needed was a bit of knowledge and then the people already here would have been able to do everything with the resources available. Selling some of those resources to get the knowledge was, and is, a viable option. Borrowing money and paying interest rates on it isn’t.

              • lprent …
                3 October 2013 at 3:15 pm

                Bootstrap solutions are certainly quite possible, but are incredibly slow.

                In NZ the classic example would have been refractory bricks, which are a consumable required for making any kind of steel. Now we actually have a couple of sites in NZ that have the clays required for making such bricks. However the size of an initial plant to produce them isn’t something that can be easily bootstrapped. There is a considerable capital investment in kilns, fuels, clay-mining, and just about anything else required to make *any* kind refractory that will stand up to steelmaking.

                To be precise I don’t think that we ever made refractories of a quality required for front-face tool steel manufacture until well into the 20th century. Even then they weren’t of a particularly good quality and I think the most of the front face refractories for steel are still imports. BTW I worked at Kamo Green Refractories for ~4 years.

                Why did we need them? Well to clear bush down to the stumps for farmland, you require steel – which is a consumable. Similarly to harvest flax, whales, trees, etc etc….In fact damn near anything that we used or sold that required steel (or upstream refractories) required steel (or upstream refractories) to produce. For instance to mine the coal required to fire furnaces to produce steel required the steel to mine it.

                But this is all still 19th century technologies, many of which we had the knowledge to produce in the 19th century in NZ, but were somewhat lacking in anything we could produce them with.

                It is the same with damn near any technology that you want to name. Most require quite a lot of pre-existing resources to be able to bootstrap them into existence. If you don’t have them already then you have to get them from somewhere else. You can take a lot of time (decades or even centuries) to slowly accumulate the required resources by working up from more primitive technologies. Or you can get the resources from somewhere else and pay the cost of getting them. Either way is expensive.

                About the only thing that humans can produce with relative ease and low technology are other humans. Something they do with a high degree of prolivity.

                • Rogue Trooper …
                  3 October 2013 at 3:24 pm

                  would that be proclivity perchance.

                  • lprent …
                    3 October 2013 at 5:03 pm

                    Yes… It has been a hard day of testing, retesting, and testing the tests. You can tell I’m a bit bored. I changed the docos on the side of the site.

                • Draco T Bastard …
                  3 October 2013 at 4:00 pm

                  Steelmaking was a problem in NZ but, as I understand it, that was more due to the nature of our iron sands – all that titanium in it causes major problems in the refining process. It wasn’t until we developed the electrical, as opposed to coal fired, refining process that it became truly viable to produce steel in NZ – c1950s/60s IIRC.

                  It is the same with damn near any technology that you want to name. Most require quite a lot of pre-existing resources to be able to bootstrap them into existence.

                  I agree, can’t get away from that but all that’s needed is the knowledge to build that physical capital and from that a society can bootstrap themselves and will do so faster than historic societies that didn’t have that knowledge.

                  Importing tools (until such time as the tools can be made) will also help but, again, a society doesn’t need finance at interest rates (usury) to accomplish that. Just print the money which allows the importer to buy the resources that the society has available.

                  • lprent …
                    3 October 2013 at 4:48 pm

                    The iron sands were a secondary problem because there aren’t very many good deposits of clay around for producing high temperature refractories. Pretty much for the same reason as why we don’t have great iron deposits. The sedimentary geology of the country is way too young …

                    Just print the money which allows the importer to buy the resources that the society has available.

                    In a bootstrap phase, you typically are importing far more than you can produce. The point is that you’re importing quite a lot of goods and services to produce more value later. During that period, printing the money required will just cause inflation of the currency and discourage people from holding that currency. That really doesn’t work unless your currency is able to buy something of actual value at the time that the exchange is being made.

                    At its base, “money” is a just a glorified barter system for goods and services. One of it’s key aspects is acting as way of transitioning barter over time specifically between when people want to sell stuff and when they want to buy stuff. You’ll find that a risk of the currency devaluing during those time periods results in “usury” just to cover inflation and the risk of inflation to maintain the value of the goods sold in the first place.

                    • Draco T Bastard …
                      3 October 2013 at 5:17 pm

                      Inflation can be controlled with judicious printing that maintains the value of the currency.

                  • Lanthanide …
                    3 October 2013 at 5:33 pm

                    “Just print the money which allows the importer to buy the resources that the society has available.”

                    What money are we printing here, Draco? New Zealand dollars? You’re going to print New Zealand dollars and give them to the English in exchange for their tools? What are the English going to do with the New Zealand dollars they just acquired, buy something off us NZers? What do NZers have that the English want? And why would we NZers want the English’s money, when we could just print more of our own?

                    If you’re suggesting NZ could print british pounds and give them to the English in exchange for tools, well…

                    • Draco T Bastard …
                      3 October 2013 at 6:43 pm

                      What money are we printing here, Draco? New Zealand dollars?

                      In the case of NZ back in the 19th century – yes. Although, I suppose they probably would have been called NZ pounds.

                      What do NZers have that the English want?

                      Back then, lots and lots of trees. Did you know that it took 3000 trees to build one ship of the line? And Britannia did rule the waves.

                      Print money to buy axes and saws, cut trees, saw them into planks and ship them to England.

                      Of course, what the British actually did was burn our forests down to clear for farmland.

                      If you’re suggesting NZ could print british pounds and give them to the English in exchange for tools, well…

                      Actually, the problem was that we did use British pounds.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      3 October 2013 at 6:56 pm

                      Well Draco, you’ve just hit upon the issue that world trade is best conducted in reserve currencies, and the NZD is not a reserve currency (i.e. it is not a currency that anyone wants to hold their cash reserves in).

                    • Draco T Bastard …
                      3 October 2013 at 8:48 pm

                      Dunno where you get that from. It certainly isn’t in what I wrote.

                    • Lanthanide …
                      3 October 2013 at 9:52 pm

                      “Print money to buy axes and saws, cut trees, saw them into planks and ship them to England.”

                      Right, but 1 shipload of axes and tools is a very large number of axes and tools, whereas 1 shipload of lumber won’t go very far at all.

                      You’re trading relatively high-volume low-value exports of lumber for high-value low-volume imports. This means you are going to need many many ships to export and only a few to import. Maybe not such a big deal if you’re trading across the Channel from England to France, but rather a large stumbling block if you’re sending ships on a 2-3 month voyage one-way to the other side of the world.

                      In short, I don’t think your plan of “print NZ money and give it to the English in exchange for their tools, that they then give back to us for our wood” is really a go-er.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      3 October 2013 at 10:11 pm

                      Where this is coming unstuck is that we are missing the old economic philosophy of “import substitution”. That is, why should we buy handsaws and blades from the UK and lose hard currency in the process, when we can make those items ourselves?

                      Of all the items that we require foreign currency for, fuel is amongst the largest and hardest to substitute for.

              • Polish Pride …
                3 October 2013 at 3:17 pm

                +1

              • McFlock …
                3 October 2013 at 5:14 pm

                I’d be much happier if you could point to a society that advanced rapidly without capital and resources from outside their borders. I am having difficulty thinking of one.

                Claiming that NZ could-have-if-only is all well and could, but the fact is that those sentiments can be replaced by the single word “didn’t”.

                • Colonial Viper …
                  3 October 2013 at 6:59 pm

                  Financial capital is no biggie usually. In the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries gold was the ultimate money of the western world. If your country had a few productive gold mines, you didn’t need “capital” from overseas.

                  Real physical resources, particularly of the energy kind, you definitely need lots of if you want to expand quickly.

                  • McFlock …
                    3 October 2013 at 8:38 pm

                    “Financial capital” is a means of exchange.
                    So was gold. And silver.

                    Where did the gold and silver come from for Europe to advance?

                  • Draco T Bastard …
                    3 October 2013 at 8:56 pm

                    In the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries gold was the ultimate money of the western world.

                    Nope. Multiple countries used multiple metals of varying purity. England used silver hence Stirling Silver. Near the end of the 19th century a number of countries tried to put in place a Gold Standard but it failed in less than 20 years. It was essentially bunk by the turn of the 20th century.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      3 October 2013 at 9:17 pm

                      No sorry you are incorrect on multiple fronts. The Bank of England used gold and preferred gold as payment of net remittances from New York to London for significant periods of time through the 18th, 19th and early 20th centuries.

                      Further, every USD remained convertible to gold until the Nixon Shock.

                    • Draco T Bastard …
                      3 October 2013 at 9:28 pm

                      No sorry you are incorrect on multiple fronts.

                      No, actually, I’m not. There are many attempts at a gold standard, none of them worked.

                      Further, every USD remained convertible to gold until the Nixon Shock.

                      And it was a good job that no one actually tried. Nixon had to dump the Gold Standard that made the US$ the world’s reserve currency because they just didn’t have enough gold to honor the number of dollars that the US had been printing.

                      There’s a simple problem with a Gold Standard – there’s not enough gold.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      3 October 2013 at 9:42 pm

                      No, actually, I’m not. There are many attempts at a gold standard, none of them worked.

                      What does “worked” mean? Money and currency systems come and go. Bretton Woods lasted only about 20 years. Silver as a basis never took off widely in the west.

                      And today’s systems are complex to another degree altogether.

                      There’s a simple problem with a Gold Standard – there’s not enough gold.

                      Sure there is, you can just set the convertibility lower.

                      BTW I am not a gold bug or fan of the gold standard, by any means.

                • Draco T Bastard …
                  3 October 2013 at 8:59 pm

                  I’d be much happier if you could point to a society that advanced rapidly without capital and resources from outside their borders.

                  Check out the history of Colonial Scrip in the US prior to independence.

                  • McFlock …
                    3 October 2013 at 9:03 pm

                    I reckon “invasion” combined with “immigration” is included in “capital and resources from outside their borders”.

                    • Draco T Bastard …
                      3 October 2013 at 9:18 pm

                      Then you’d be wrong. Benjamin Franklin specifically held the prosperity of the Americas as due to the use of Colonial Scrip and not having to borrow from Europe.

                      Sure, immigration would have had some influence – something to do with the knowledge imported from Europe I’d say but the Americas had massive resources which the new Americans used often against the laws of the British.

                    • McFlock …
                      3 October 2013 at 9:36 pm

                      The “Americans” didn’t have to borrow from Europe because:

                      They stole large tracts of land from First Nations people
                      The land they stole had not been over-exploited byt the previous owners
                      The fishing grounds near the land that they stole had not been over-exploited by the previous owners

                      They had extensive interests in sugar and tobacco
                      Their sugar and tobacco was grown by slaves

                      They had a constant and increasing flow of immigrants to expand westwards while the established Americans consolidated the territory already gained.

                      The signature on the bottom of the promissary note, with all due respect to the first US postmaster-general and all-round renaissance motherfucker, was largely irrelevant to all of that.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      3 October 2013 at 9:44 pm

                      McFlock, the Americans still needed gold to trade with Europe and to pay their taxes.

                    • McFlock …
                      3 October 2013 at 9:50 pm

                      which they got by selling cotton, furs, and other resources.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      3 October 2013 at 10:16 pm

                      Usually only a fraction of what they needed however, as the taxes due were on the entire colonial economy, whereas any gold they might gain from Europe was only from the export part of the economy. And even then it was from the net result of the two way trade, and there was only a positive flow of gold to the Americas in those months where the trade balance favoured them (i.e. when the colonies experienced a ‘trade surplus’).

                      In other months, gold would often have to be remitted back to London.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      3 October 2013 at 10:18 pm

                      The signature on the bottom of the promissary note, with all due respect to the first US postmaster-general and all-round renaissance motherfucker, was largely irrelevant to all of that.

                      Indeed, the ‘chartalist’ view of money can be largely discounted – excuse the bad pun.

                    • McFlock …
                      3 October 2013 at 10:39 pm

                      Well, when the crown increased taxes and imposed new taxes, you were right and the landed gentry got a bit pissed off.

                      But for a hundred years or so before that, though…

          • McFlock 13.1.1.1.2
            3 October 2013 at 1:30 pm

            Which ones? Most of the “early countries” I can think of got started via conquest, piracy and brigandage that brought territory, materials, and slaves within their borders (from “offshore”).

            Although the nation-state as we know it today is really only a few hundred years old.

            • Rogue Trooper 13.1.1.1.2.1
              3 October 2013 at 1:39 pm

              ahh, you are referring to New Zealand in your second sentence I see.

              • McFlock …
                3 October 2013 at 1:49 pm

                Lol nope – the entire concept.

                As opposed to city-state or kingdom, where the “country” was essentially defined by limits of influence of a single source of power (king or capital).

                A true nation is where the sense of identity is (theoretically) imbued equally throughout the nation, a collective cultural myth if you will. For example, Greece and Germany only emerged as cohesive political units in the 19th century.

      • Colonial Viper 13.1.2
        3 October 2013 at 12:12 pm

        “This isn’t about left-right politics. It is about something more fundamental, the unsustainable monetary policy in which the central banks gradually bleed wealth out of the local economies via usury.”

        That’s a total and ridiculous nonsense. The Fed discount window is close to zero percent. No effective interest there. So how is that “usury”?

        Its the retail banks and investment banks which are the direct problem, with the central banks guilty of insufficient economic models and laissez faire regulation.

      • Draco T Bastard 13.1.3
        3 October 2013 at 12:54 pm

        It’s not the central banks but the private banks that create most of the money in circulation that do that.

    • jcuknz 13.2
      4 October 2013 at 9:23 am

      Good on you Lprent 🙂

      • lprent 13.2.1
        4 October 2013 at 3:12 pm

        Hey, I’ll always willing the help those less socially aware of the nuances of human behaviour than myself. Despite my own anti-social tendencies, there are always those less fortunate than me. There is no better way to give guidance to those pathetic individuals than to demonstrate what they might have said if they’d only thought through what they were trying to achieve…..

        I figure that with such an example in front of them, then Ugly Truth may attempt to provide the required context in the future.

        😈

  14. Rogue Trooper 14
    3 October 2013 at 12:34 pm

    RNZ- Midday Report:
    -“Infant formula manufacturers still facing an up-hill battle in China”-Michael Barnett
    -French parent company of Nutricia want Fonterra to compensate them for their lost markets and sales
    -Nats (Joyces’) Draft Tertiary Education Strategy: “#1 Priority, delivering skills for industry, including employer input into course content.
    -TEU spokeswoman- “more to tertiary education than making money” (bit of a truism, nevermind though).

    AND, Lorde hits #1 on US Billboard with Royals . (some peoples know a class act when they read one). 😉

    “Running everywhere at such speed
    ‘Til they find there’s no need (there’s no need)”.
    -Lennon, John Winston & McCartney, Paul James (bigger than Jesus, for a time). #33

  15. travellerev 15
    3 October 2013 at 1:24 pm

    Bank NZ offers a new service! If you want you can have their face recognition software help you find out how you feel about money so you can manage it better. They use your home computer camera for this and you can do it in the privacy of your own home. I’m feeling a whole lot better now!

    • Rogue Trooper 15.1
      3 October 2013 at 1:36 pm

      can dispose of all those unsightly mirrors now; Do they have a shaving app? 😉

  16. weka 16
    3 October 2013 at 2:39 pm

    Men. You should not rape.


    Women. Just be.

    Okay. So with that out of the way – New Zealand Herald you piece of shite! 

Do any of you have mothers? Because you just threw her under the bus by paying any attention to the dithery, foolish, revolting opinions of a sexist out of touch old man.



    Marama Davidson on why Bob Jones and the NZ Herald are shite, and why we are listening to the wrong voices.

    http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2013/10/02/nz-herald-is-shite-marama-davidson-responds-to-the-bob-jones-article

    Plus the rewrite of Jones’ article

    http://prng.net/bob-jones.html

  17. Polish Pride 17
    3 October 2013 at 3:04 pm

    And many on the left wonder why employers bleat on about employees and bias in the ERA

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/better-business/9239857/Anger-issues-reduce-workers-compensation

    Why should other workers have to put up with idiots like this?
    Why should an employer have to pay compensation when losing his job was clearly his own doing?

    Unfortunately I have been in a similar situation myself with one of our staff early on. It is BS.

    • McFlock 17.1
      3 October 2013 at 3:35 pm

      Merhtens issued Turner a warning, and advised he should go to anger management counselling.

      He was told if he did not go to counselling, he could be fired.

      Turner did not go to anger management, but nor did the company follow up on the issue.

      So basically the manager failed to manage. So the employee gets money.

      Loftus said Turner was owed $3682.20, but because he failed to address his anger management problem, he reduced the compensation by 30 per cent.

      But the employee was a dick, so gets less money than someone who wasn’t a dick.

      If you can’t manage properly, you cost the company money. If they’d followed up on the anger management issue, with escalating warnings as he failed to make appointments over the three months or so before the final incident, it would have been sorted much more quickly and cheaply. If they’d taken stronger action when he assaulted colleagues, it would have been sorted more quickly and cheaply. But the manager dropped the ball, and the issue dragged on and costed more.

      The ex-employee sounds like a dick who I sure wouldn’t want to work with, but dealing with such matters is the manager’s job.

      Would you blame a deceased patient if their doctor made basic mistakes in procedure?
      Even if they were an obese smoker who took class A drugs?

      Would you blame the bus passengers for getting injured because the bus driver was drunk?
      Even if they were loud and distracting school kids?

      • Polish Pride 17.1.1
        4 October 2013 at 12:04 pm

        I don’t think not following process is acceptable for justifying making an employer pay out an employee where the employee has assaulted and abused other workers. I guess it comes down to the type of society we want to live in.

        • Pascal's bookie 17.1.1.1
          4 October 2013 at 12:10 pm

          So in order to remove ‘bias’ from the employment court, the judges should ignore the law and just go with their gut feel about who is the bigger wanker?

          • Polish Pride 17.1.1.1.1
            5 October 2013 at 6:50 pm

            So you believe that a law that allows someone to assault another person resulting in him losing his job and then getting a payout is a good law? You must be joking.

            The Law vs whats right and wrong are unfortunately as this case shows, not always the same.

  19. Paul 19
    3 October 2013 at 3:33 pm

    Sounds like you admire authoritarian rule.
    Typical undemocratic right wing approach.

    [lprent: You should say who you are responding to. ]

    • Puckish Rogue 19.1
      3 October 2013 at 4:07 pm

      Sounds like you make assumptions

      I admire some authoritarian rule (Singapore especially) but most I do not especially not Russia

      I do believe though that if you go to another country then you have to go with how that country works

      Normally that means I have no sympathy for the likes of Schapelle Corby but in this instance it also extends to the protestors

      Do the crime in a country and you do the time in that country

      • Paul 19.1.1
        3 October 2013 at 4:28 pm

        You certainly don’t supportive of the Greenpeace activists who are trying to do something to stop fossil fuel extraction in the Arctic?
        Why are seemingly happy to see them in trouble?
        Am I right (from your nom de plume ) that you come on the Standard simply to aggravate?

  20. phillip ure 20
    3 October 2013 at 4:54 pm

    http://whoar.co.nz/2013/breaking-news-silk-road-has-been-busted/

    ..the international infamous drug-trafficking site ‘silk road’ has been busted by the fbi..

    ..apparently the owner screwed up..

    ..and included his own email in something he shouldn’t have..

    ..(cont..)

    phillip ure..

  22. karol 22
    3 October 2013 at 6:59 pm

    The discussion above on bootstraps and the developments of technologies in NZ, reminded me of Sandra Coney’s recent book, On the Radar.

    During WWII there was extensive use of radar to monitor the seas in case of invasion, especially at Piha.. Apparently the technology had been very well developed in NZ, but, under war time secrecy, a lot of the information about this has been lost.

    ”You can imagine it, can’t you?” says the Auckland councillor and journalist, who has recently had her book On the Radar: The Story of Piha’s World War 2 Radar Station published.

    ”Because it was new technology, even the top brass didn’t appreciate the power it had. And then you’ve got this added thing that the women weren’t seen as competent with this scientific and technological advance, and therefore, when they were picking up something, they were not believed.”
    […]
    Coney describes how New Zealand got a flying start in the development of radar, as the DSIR’s top scientist, Ernest Marsden, was in Britain for a secret briefing on the new technology when war broke out.

    He returned to New Zealand by ship with locked crates containing the basic components, including television sets for the cathode ray tubes used to project radar signals on to a screen.

    Unfortunately the air force at the time saw little potential in the technology, so Marsden and the DSIR set up their own secret laboratories in Wellington and Christchurch.

    This led to the establishment in 1942 of six coastal monitoring stations around the upper North Island, including Radar Unit Number 4 on Hikurangi, an imposing hill at the south end of Piha Beach with sweeping views across the Tasman.

    Apparently when the Yanks entered in the Pacific War, they took over the technology, and NZ’s technological input & advances diminished.

    Wikipedia, history of radar.

  23. miravox 23
    3 October 2013 at 7:15 pm

    Ouch

    On Sunday, at the end of his most recent four day stopover in New Zealand, Prime Minister John Key heads off for another week of international meetings…

    I’d get the impression that Key was a drunk and unpopular spinmeister if it wasn’t Vernon Small writing. He’s not is he Vernon? … Vernon!?

    Have another byo drink John.

  24. greywarbler 24
    3 October 2013 at 9:10 pm

    What’s this about Venzuela having to pay huge sums for toilet paper and milk. Women standinmg in queues for four hours to get them, temperature 40oC?
    They’ve got oil.

    • Murray Olsen 24.1
      4 October 2013 at 12:36 am

      They also follow policies independently of Washington, and despite the nationalisation of some sectors of the economy, much of it is still in the hands of a traitorous class of factory owners. These owners feel more solidarity with the US and A than they do with their own neighbours, which makes them a lot like our very own Tories.
      I remember a previous shortage of toilet paper, where at least part of the problem was bulk buying and smuggling across the boarder by Colombians. This time, the government is saying that the factory owners are hoarding supplies in order to wait for price increases. They may be at least partially correct.
      Overall, I think it’s a lesson for us about preparing for the future. To ensure a decent life for most Kiwis, we are going to have to confront our own traitors. We already see a little of what they’re prepared to do, from Key’s asset sales through to WhaleSpew’s onanistic fantasies about shooting unionists, and they’ll get serious once they really feel threatened. We have to be at least as serious.

      • greywarbler 24.1.1
        5 October 2013 at 11:47 am

        MO+1 We have seen it in other countries. Hoarding and trading necessities for high prices at times of crisis. It occurs in all humans, so we need to be prepared for the feelings in ourselves, and work out how to manage it.

        John Wyndham has thoughtfully set known human behaviour against future problems in many of his books. In Day of the Triffids farms are set up as gated communities to give the blind a place to live and work and a place to house refugees from the ruined cities. In his book, one community was being run as an open house for any person in need. But it could not produce enough food for all, and each new person altered the balance of the community. His character left, believing it to be unsustainable.

        So wise decisions need to be made based on real life not wishful thinking or pleasant, positive ideas of everything will work out all right if things work out. Impractical circular thinking.

  25. Penny Bright 25
    3 October 2013 at 9:24 pm

    It is clear to me that private sector ‘high-flyers’ don’t transmogrify into competent ‘public servants’.

    They’re from another galaxy, don’t have a clue, simply ‘make it up’ and are not held accountable for implementing their statutory duties – in my considered opinion.

    Here are the STATUTORY DUTIES of the Auckland Council CEO Doug McKay, as outlined in the Local Government Act 2002, s.42 :

    Please particularly note his following statutory duty:

    (e) maintaining systems to enable effective planning and accurate reporting of the financial and service performance of the local authority;

    http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2002/0084/latest/DLM171859.html

    Chief executive

    (1) A local authority must, in accordance with clauses 33 and 34 of Schedule 7, appoint a chief executive.

    (2) A chief executive appointed under subsection (1) is responsible to his or her local authority for—

    (a) implementing the decisions of the local authority; and

    (b) providing advice to members of the local authority and to its community boards, if any; and

    (c) ensuring that all responsibilities, duties, and powers delegated to him or her or to any person employed by the local authority, or imposed or conferred by an Act, regulation, or bylaw, are properly performed or exercised; and

    (d) ensuring the effective and efficient management of the activities of the local authority; and

    (e) maintaining systems to enable effective planning and accurate reporting of the financial and service performance of the local authority; and

    (f) providing leadership for the staff of the local authority; and

    (g) employing, on behalf of the local authority, the staff of the local authority (in accordance with any remuneration and employment policy); and

    (h) negotiating the terms of employment of the staff of the local authority (in accordance with any remuneration and employment policy).

    (3) A chief executive appointed under subsection (1) is responsible to his or her local authority for ensuring, so far as is practicable, that the management structure of the local authority—

    (a)reflects and reinforces the separation of regulatory responsibilities and decision-making processes from other responsibilities and decision-making processes; and

    (b) is capable of delivering adequate advice to the local authority to facilitate the explicit resolution of conflicting objectives.

    (4)For the purposes of any other Act, a chief executive appointed under this section is the principal administrative officer of the local authority.

    ______________________________________________________________________________

    Here’s the link to the Auckland Council 2012 – 2013 Auckland Council Annual Report:

    http://www.aucklandcouncil.govt.nz/EN/planspoliciesprojects/reports/annual_report/Documents/annualreport20122013volume3pdf

    Do YOU believe this shows ‘accurate reporting of the financial and service performance of the local authority’?

    Please be reminded of another STATUTORY DUTY which is NOT being upheld:

    http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2005/0040/latest/DLM345729.html

    17 Requirement to create and maintain records

    (1) Every public office and local authority must create and maintain full and accurate records of its affairs, in accordance with normal, prudent business practice, including the records of any matter that is contracted out to an independent contractor.

    ______________________________________________________________________________

    So – where’s the ‘devilish detail’ in this Auckland Council 2012 – 2013 Annual Report?

    http://www.aucklandcouncil.govt.nz/EN/planspoliciesprojects/reports/annual_report/Documents/annualreport20122013volume3.pdf

    What are the NAMES of the consultants / contractors; the SCOPE/ TERM and VALUE of these private sector contracts?

    How is it LAWFUL for the supposedly ‘apolitical’ Auckland Council CEO Doug McKay, to be an ‘invitation-only’ member of the hugely powerful private sector lobby group – the Committee for Auckland?

    http://www.committeeforauckland.co.nz/membership/member-organisations

    Doug McKay Chief Executive Office Auckland Council http://www.aucklandcouncil.govt.nz

    Despite the General Counsel for Auckland Council Wendy Brandon, opposing the following ten new ‘Items of Evidence’ – High Court Judge Ellis allowed me to so ‘adduce’ in the Occupy Auckland vs Auckland Council Appeal, in which I was one of two successful Appellants:

    http://www.occupyaucklandvsaucklandcouncilappeal.org.nz/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/OCCUPY-AUCKLAND-APPEAL-APPLICATION-BY-APPELLANT-BRIGHT-TO-ADDUCE-NEW-EVIDENCE-pdf.pdf

    4/.NEW EVIDENCE in the form of a Local Government Official Information Act reply from Auckiand Council’s General Counsel Wendy Brandon, dated 10 February 2012 advised that:

    1) ” …. that Auckland Council CEO Doug McKay is a member of the Committee for Auckland in his capacity as Chief Executive of Auckland Council’.

    2) Mr McKay is an honorary member of the Committee for Auckland. As such there was no joining fee charged or paid.

    3) No resolution of any committee of the Auckland Council was sought or given in relation to Mr McKay’s membership of the Committee for Auckland. The Committee for Auckland is an independent organisation and its aims and objectives are a matter of public record.

    4) Mr McKay is not aware of any meetings ofthe Committee for Auckland regarding the “Occupy Auckland movement”. He has not attended any Committee meeting, and is not in possession of any Committee emails/briefings or minutes.”

    This new evidence confirms the direct links with the CEO of Auckland Council with the Committee for Auckland, an unelected body made up of predominantly influential and powerful corporate interests, which represent the ’1%’ whom Occupy Auckland were opposed both in principle and practice.

    This evidence was not previously available.
    ______________________________________________________________________________

    How can New Zealand be ‘perceived’ as the ‘least corrupt country in the world’ (along with Denmark and Finland according to the 2012 Transparency International ‘Corruption Perception Index’, when our biggest local authority, Auckland Council, has so little TRANSPARENCY? http://www.transparency.org/cpi2012/results

    How can you have genuine TRANSPARENCY without proper WRITTEN RECORDS?

    I am SO looking forward to establishing the Auckland Mayoral ‘Commission Against Corruption’, staffed and paid for from the Aiuckland Mayoral budget, in order to achieve my Auckland Mayoral vision “to stop the corrupt corporate control of the Auckland region”.

    Kind regards,

    ‘Her Warship’

    http://www.pennybright4mayor.org.nz