Open mike 04/06/2023

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, June 4th, 2023 - 68 comments
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68 comments on “Open mike 04/06/2023 ”

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  1. bwaghorn 1
    4 June 2023 at 7:34 am

    https://i.stuff.co.nz/taranaki-daily-news/news/132169319/railway-advocate-concerned-railway-line-could-be-mothballed-as-use-drops

    Is railway still a good spend , ?

    Maybe we should just be going all in on transitioning our trucking fleet to hydrogen .

    Got a mate in parts in palmerston north,

    If he gets something bought down by train it can take upto 5 days to get in a train off a train and delivered from Auckland.

    It's over night by road

    • weka 1.1
      4 June 2023 at 8:52 am

      Think road maintenance over the next 50 years, including from increasing extreme weather events. Also the problems of hydrogen.

      if we want resiliency in the climate age we need to not put all our eggs in one basket. Nature does diversity for a reason.

      • bwaghorn 1.1.1
        4 June 2023 at 10:18 am

        Pssst occasionally I say things I don't necessarily believe, so I can sit back and learn from the bebate, something I'm not good at, my thinking speed is more entish than elvish.

        • weka 1.1.1.1
          4 June 2023 at 10:35 am

          👍

          It's good to have a topic at the top of OM that people can get their teeth into.

      • Belladonna 1.1.2
        4 June 2023 at 10:47 am

        When it comes to resilience from extreme weather events, I'm not sure that rail is the best option.
        Heavy trains require a much greater degree of safety engineering than roads do. And, there is no possibility of routing around damaged areas, or allowing limited and controlled passage – as you can do for damaged roads undergoing repair.

        Comparing the resilience of the road and rail from Wairoa to Napier for example.

        Both were washed out and badly damaged (including bridges) in Cyclone Gabrielle (and run pretty much parallel, through the same country). The road has been repaired to some extent – although there are go-slow sections, and ongoing heavy repair work – but cars and restricted-weight trucks can get through.

        The rail has no time-frame on the repair.

        https://www.gisborneherald.co.nz/news/300-damage-sites-on-wairoa-napier-rail-line

        Now, it may be possible that this is due to the level of resources thrown at the two repair tasks. But, I suspect it's due more to the higher level of engineering required for a railbed, than for a road.

        The remainder of the rail network (through to the Napier port) has been repaired in the 'ugly fast opening' style – but, my understanding is that there was no road closure to the port – in comparison.

        Rail may well be a significant and useful heavy transit option – but it is not resilient in extreme weather events.

        • weka 1.1.2.1
          4 June 2023 at 12:12 pm

          Heavy trains require a much greater degree of safety engineering than roads do. And, there is no possibility of routing around damaged areas, or allowing limited and controlled passage – as you can do for damaged roads undergoing repair.

          resliency comes from having multiple systems that intersect. Hence don't put all your eggs in one basket (road or rail). I didn't argue that rail is better than road. I'm saying that we need rail for climate mitigation, and we should also design it with adaptation in mind.

          It's pretty clear that the response to Gabrielle is primarily short term focused. Nothing wrong with that except where that's all there is. Changing how we move people and goods is an imperative and we're not even having that conversation yet. Most people want a green BAU replacement for mitigation, and seem to be trying to find a position for resilient BAU and haven't yet realised that this is largely just not possible.

          The more we can relocalise food supply, jobs, education, and healthcare, the easier it will be to adapt to unforseen events. Fortunately for us, that relocalisation also acts as mitigation.

    • PsyclingLeft.Always 1.2
      4 June 2023 at 8:53 am

      Well….the problem as I see it, is not about Rail per se, but who, is running Rail !

      Get Rail back to NZ Rail. Employ the right people. Electrify it.

      I dont know if you have ever looked at the previous comments on here about this ? Over a long period I have put many links. On Transport Efficiency ? Rail wins hands down. Damage to roads ? Trucks cause the most by a major factor. Hydrogen as a fuel? Its still in VERY early stages. Rail is now.

      FYI..in my opinion light trucks still definitely for delivery. Anyway, I will link a couple…one from a Professor (who absolutely knows what she is talking about )

      The other is a PDF ,not a big one but has all the comparison efficiency figures Rail, Coastal ship, and trucks…albeit doesnt incl hydrogen. As I say…its very early and there are many maybes about Storage (incl on truck…VERY difficult , requires an extremely gas tight tank !)

      https://theconversation.com/why-new-zealand-should-invest-in-smart-rail-before-green-hydrogen-to-decarbonise-transport-153075

      https://www.nzta.govt.nz/assets/resources/research/reports/497/docs/497.pdf

      • Ngungukai 1.2.1
        4 June 2023 at 8:59 am

        Evidently we have been subsidizing road freight for the past 30-40 years to the detriment of the Rail Network. Also sold off NZ Rail for a pittance under the 1984 Labour Government to the Merchant Banking Fraternity and Wiscounsin Rail who just asset stripped it to the point the NZ Government had to buy it back to try and save it ???

        • PsyclingLeft.Always 1.2.1.1
          4 June 2023 at 9:35 am

          Yep. That Labour..(in name only, who went on to form act)

          • Ngungukai 1.2.1.1.1
            4 June 2023 at 9:46 am

            Correct aka Roger Douglas, Richard Prebble & Michael Bassett.

            • PsyclingLeft.Always 1.2.1.1.1.1
              4 June 2023 at 10:02 am

              And (with others) personally responsible for a massive wealth gain for a VERY small number of associated scumbags…and literally generations of suffering for a large number of NZers.

              Which we are still paying for.

            • Peter 1.2.1.1.1.2
              4 June 2023 at 12:39 pm

              One of the rewards for Prebble is that he still gets to write newspaper columns saying how shit everyone else is at running the country with the suggestion that he has the answers.

        • Ad 1.2.1.2
          4 June 2023 at 9:59 am

          Regional rail was in rapid and irreversible decline well before Richard Prebble got hold of it. It had been declining since the 1920s even when some branch lines were still being built.

          • aj 1.2.1.2.1
            4 June 2023 at 1:20 pm

            declining since the 1920s

            Was the Think Big of those days.

            • Ad 1.2.1.2.1.1
              4 June 2023 at 2:31 pm

              That was the time in our country's history when we needed grand central-driven connection projects.

          • Johnr 1.2.1.2.2
            4 June 2023 at 5:39 pm

            Well AD,at 1212. Have you a reference to support that statement

        • joe90 1.2.1.3
          4 June 2023 at 1:26 pm

          Also sold off NZ Rail for a pittance under the 1984 Labour Government

          National flogged it in 1993.

          /

      • Macro 1.2.2
        4 June 2023 at 1:52 pm

        I attended the Cabinet Economic Committee Meeting when the electrification of the Main Trunk Line was agreed and approved, it was announced to the media immediately after the meeting by Lance Adam-Schneider, then Minister of Railways. Part of the "Think Big" programme under Muldoon.

        • Ad 1.2.2.1
          4 June 2023 at 2:55 pm

          Present at the creation!

          What was it like working with Bill Birch? In that era he was like the godchild of Sutch, just wrong side of the tracks. So to speak.

          • Macro 1.2.2.1.1
            4 June 2023 at 3:50 pm

            I was serving on the Naval Staff at that time in a number of roles, one of which was manpower planning. Defence had just moved from fixed term engagements to Open ended engagements – 3 months notice. The effect on some specialisations was horrific – particularly electric engineering and control engineering as essentially Navy at that time was one of the only organisations in the country with knowledge in this area and our people were in high demand for places like Glenbrook and the oil plants in Taranaki etc. They were leaving in droves and at one point the Admiral had to don no1's (sword and medals) and go up to Parliament and say – any more loss and we tie up another frigate! We were seen as the training establishment and I remember a meeting we had with Bill Birch at the time when these factors were discussed.

            My attendance at the CECM above was in relation to the funding for the then new Resource Protection Vessel ( To be HMNZS Endeavour) which was also under consideration, as was the price of wheat. It was not wrong to say that at that time the country was run from the PM's desk.

            • Anne 1.2.2.1.1.1
              4 June 2023 at 5:35 pm

              "It was not wrong to say that at that time the country was run from the PM's desk."

              We didn't have a democratically elected government. We had a malevolent dictator who was known to direct his lackeys to act unlawfully on his behalf.

        • PsyclingLeft.Always 1.2.2.2
          5 June 2023 at 8:05 am

          Aha. So..you say. And your point?

    • Ad 1.3
      4 June 2023 at 9:05 am

      Rail is needed when you need to move bulky, heavy, cheap goods around.

      So if your economy declines in its need for that kind of transport, you need rail less and less.

      Some of the big components for the Motonui, Maui and Kapuni gas and petroleum stations came through by rail in the 1970s and 1980s.

      But then they stopped.

      When the Patea freezing works closed in 1992 and Waitara freezing works closed in 1997, rail use declined further.

      Mostly the left are stuck with nostalgia over rail because it used to employ tens of thousands of working class guys particularly Maori.

      With domestic coal use dying by policy direction, soon there will be very little use for the rail line to Westport, or the Nightcaps-Ohai line to Invercargill. Rail north of Whangarei is almost unused.

      Let it go.

      I'd venture that the Otago Rail Trail makes more money in cycling and tourism than the actual rail ever did.

      Rip up the regional tracks, shift away from bulk cheap exports, and do something smarter.

      • PsyclingLeft.Always 1.3.1
        4 June 2023 at 9:33 am

        Mostly the left are stuck with nostalgia over rail because it used to employ tens of thousands of working class guys particularly Maori.

        Fuck..just bullshit. Read my links. Or not

      • Ngungukai 1.3.2
        4 June 2023 at 9:50 am

        Hopefully they are going to sort out the rail from North Port to Auckland and we will get a fully functional rail and freight service running from Whangarei Port to Auckland.

        • Ad 1.3.2.1
          4 June 2023 at 9:57 am

          There is no rail line to NorthPort.

          There's no capital available for the Whangarei-NorthPort line, which is what would start to make rail Auckland to Northland viable.

          They've done the Designation but it's more than a decade away in reality.

      • weka 1.3.3
        4 June 2023 at 10:33 am

        Mostly the left are stuck with nostalgia over rail because it used to employ tens of thousands of working class guys particularly Maori.

        it's not nostalgia, it's climate consciousness. I would say any comment about rail that doesn't put it in the context of climate is nostalgia for a time when we could pretend that the economy was the most important thing and the environment was something over there for the greenies to worry about.

        • Ad 1.3.3.1
          4 June 2023 at 10:39 am

          When did rail ever do anything for climate change?

          Has any civil defence plan ever relied on rail? Nope.

          Is even commuter rail performing in Wellington or Auckland? Nope.

          Regional rail is the dumb economy. And regional rail is the dumb society.

          • weka 1.3.3.1.1
            4 June 2023 at 11:49 am

            maybe go do some reading on why climate actioners support rail, and how that might look in NZ?

            When did rail ever do anything for climate change?

            this is so inane, I'm not even explaining it.

            Has any civil defence plan ever relied on rail? Nope.

            What happens when a civil emergency takes out the roads?

            Is even commuter rail performing in Wellington or Auckland? Nope.

            Why not?

            Regional rail is the dumb economy. And regional rail is the dumb society.

            Neoliberalism for the win!

          • Scud 1.3.3.1.2
            4 June 2023 at 3:18 pm

            I believe after Bola & a couple of other times, but I'll to unpack a couple of boxes without the wife looking/ or knowing to confirm this.

            • Shanreagh 1.3.3.1.2.1
              4 June 2023 at 7:20 pm

              Are they the ones who have already told her you have got rid of? wink if so I can understand your caution.

          • Patricia Bremner 1.3.3.1.3
            4 June 2023 at 10:13 pm

            Ad, tell that to the Aussies who live in suburbs or satellite towns who Drive-Park then Ride on a train to their work.

      • bwaghorn 1.3.4
        4 June 2023 at 12:51 pm

        It's the bulk product s that are leaving the new Plymouth line due to it being cheaper to truck it,

        So we either have to subsidize rail ,more, or charge higher rd users on trucks! Both will have knock effects upstream and down.

        • Ad 1.3.4.1
          4 June 2023 at 2:30 pm

          We don't have to do either.

          We have let most of our regional rail die including the Catlins Line, Otago inland line, Canterbury inland lines, the Blackball line, the Greymouth line, the Nelson line, the Dargaville line, the Otira line, the Paeroa line, the Waihi line, the Thames line, the Rotorua line, and dozens more …

          … and guess what we are more efficient, more responsive, stronger and more adaptable as a country than we have ever been.

          Go right ahead and invest more to Tauranga, Auckland and Hamilton where the freight and most of the passengers are and will be.

          Stop wasting time and taxpayer money on regional rail.

          • bwaghorn 1.3.4.1.1
            4 June 2023 at 3:10 pm

            "Stop wasting time and taxpayer money on regional rail.

            What about in 30 years and nzs approaching 15 million people, the region s will soak alot ofvthat up, .

            Surely it's cheaper to maintain then now for future need than to let them go to ruin,

  2. Ad 2
    4 June 2023 at 10:36 am

    So what's it like inside the Green Party at the moment?

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/left-wing-green-party-members-lose-leader-nicole-geluk-le-gros/6HIOHIPL2VETHFR5THNQWCMOQ4/

    Maybe it's time to stop claiming there's nothing wrong as Incognito did two weeks ago.

    https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2023/06/04/standard-attack-dr-edwards-for-green-conspiracy-as-greens-quietly-purge-ultra-woke-conspirators/

    Outside the non-reality of the RoyMorgan poll, this is what a competitive non-mainstream party looks like, and it ain't the Green Party:

    https://www.act.org.nz/a_time_for_truth_offers_real_change

    • Bearded Git 2.1
      4 June 2023 at 11:41 am

      ACT are a worry, though much of their vote is Luxon generated.

      The Greens are concentrating on Climate Change, the Environment and Inequality at this election now the gender/woke obsessed fanatics* have been put in their place.

      These three issues will attract many votes, especially given Labour's shift to the centre under Hipkins.

      I'm predicting Greens 11% this election.

      *gender should be a cross-party issue

      • weka 2.1.1
        4 June 2023 at 12:07 pm

        I think the Greens are handling this relatively well. The shift towards environmental, climate and inequality issue and the quiet downplaying of the excesses of identity politics seems on point for the election campaign. I don't know how that is happening (thinking about Davidson's public facing work while KJK was here suggests she's still pretty out there), but am glad it is.

        • Bearded Git 2.1.1.1
          4 June 2023 at 12:23 pm

          Agreed Weka.

          I can see TMP getting at least 3% because its leaders seem adept at keeping a high profile.

    • weka 2.2
      4 June 2023 at 12:00 pm

      Coughlan appears to be saying that the Green Left Network removed Geluk-Le Gros because she supports an identity politics position that is too far even for the Greens and that it was causing problems for the party. Seems a good thing to replace her in that case, especially if the concern is what she would be doing in election year.

      I can't see the problem, it's not like NZ voters are going to be following that level of detail, and it's hardly clickbait that the MSM can run with. It seems like normal level repositioning that goes on in all political parties.

    • Visubversa 2.3
      4 June 2023 at 12:13 pm

      "Lived experience"? – as in "my lived experience – which is what I say and most of which I make up, outweighs your biological reality every time"?

      Yet another reason to avoid the Green Party!

      • weka 2.3.1
        4 June 2023 at 1:21 pm

        I'm not sure Coughlan represents the constitutional change accurately (am still trying to get my head around it), but here ist he list of initial Lived Experience Networks.

        • Inclusive Greens (disability);
        • Rainbow Greens;
        • Green Women;
        • Young Greens;
        • Rural Greens;
        • Pasifika Greens

        https://elections.nz/assets/party-files/Constitution-of-the-Green-Party-of-Aotearoa-New-Zealand-June-2022.pdf

        There is provision to add more.

        I'm not sure the LENs are inherently a problem, or if it's simply that GP culture now blocks sexed based rights discussion. I take the position that it's better to try and reclaim the GP rather than reject them out of hand (same with the rest of the left)

  3. joe90 3
    4 June 2023 at 10:41 am

    First Armenian leader to attend the inauguration of a Turkish leader.

    @revishvilig

    Preisdent of Azerbaijan Aliyev and Prime Minister of Armenia Pashinyan at the inauguration of the Turkish President Erdogan. Substantial changes taking place in the South Caucasus

    https://twitter.com/revishvilig/status/1665091282404777990

  4. joe90 4
    4 June 2023 at 1:11 pm

    Lotsa shenanigans in the Russian border region. A town of 40,000 is being bombed by separatists, people have been evacuated and there are reports of widespread looting by locals and Russian forces. And it was supposed to be a wee imperialist venture where only Ukrainians would die, only Ukrainian children would be terrorised, and only Ukrainians would have their homes and communities destroyed.

    Shame, really.

    /

    https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20230603-frightening-thousands-of-russians-flee-shelling-to-belgorod

    • mikesh 4.1
      4 June 2023 at 2:15 pm

      According to an article the Weekend Herald the attack was carried out by Russian dissidents.

  5. Stephen D 5
    4 June 2023 at 4:05 pm

    ACT wants the Education portfolio.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/132220276/act-is-on-the-brink-of-holding-some-power-what-does-that-mean

    ”What does it want?

    It’s testament to ACT’s confidence that Seymour sees one of his caucus as education minister. This is potentially a fish hook for Luxon who also sees the portfolio as a priority.

    ACT wants enormous reform – and that goes far beyond the return and expansion of charter schools (which Luxon has already committed to).

    School funding would depend on digital quarterly reporting, especially of attendance (importantly, income wouldn’t be dependent on the results, but the frequency of reporting.)

    This does seem rather bureaucratic for an anti-bureaucracy party – but underlines the importance they attach to chronic truancy.”

    Wow, interesting times head. And not in a good way.

    It’s about time the media started investigating ACT policy.

    • Peter 5.1
      4 June 2023 at 5:53 pm

      Previously Act's big education thing (bedsides charter schools) was 'voucher' education.

      I haven't seen any mention about that or that their other great driver, parental choice, will mean school zoning is done away with.

      Principle seems to go down the tubes with Seymour when electoral reality kicks in. You want parental choice? Yes. If that affects the values of your constituents' houses? No.

  6. joe90 6
    4 June 2023 at 8:07 pm

    What could have been.

    4/6/1989

  7. SPC 7
    4 June 2023 at 11:53 pm
    • Take New Zealand from five tax rates on income down to two. It reduces the incentive for tax avoidance and sends a message that if you work hard and do well, you get to keep more of your own money
    • Reduce the number of public servants and remove whole departments that add no value for the public
    • Invest in safer communities by increasing the number of prison beds so dangerous criminals can be kept off the streets
    • Provide the ability to lock up serious youth offenders with the construction of 200 new youth justice beds under the management of the Department of Corrections
    • Increase capitation rates for GP practices, ensuring New Zealanders can get an appointment with their GP when they need one
    • Pay good teachers more and pay the best teachers a lot more with the Teaching Excellence Reward Fund
    • Protect New Zealand and its allies by increasing defence spending to match Australia’s at 2% of GDP
    • Share over a billion dollars a year with councils for infrastructure through GST-sharing, but only if they say ‘yes’ to building more homes.

    https://www.act.org.nz/time-for-truth

    The tax is 17.5 cents to $70,000 and 28 cents over that level.

    More spending, and huge reductions in tax revenue. It would result in an immediate downgrade in our credit rating.

    Of course the policy is not serious, because they are not proposing it as policy to be applied by any government. One wonders it they will even have it costed by any reputable body.

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