Open mike 05/10/2020

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, October 5th, 2020 - 182 comments
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Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

182 comments on “Open mike 05/10/2020 ”

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    • Sacha 1.1
      5 October 2020 at 7:08 am

      Editorial cartoonist who was a journo in Australia is not amused by Act’s antics.

      https://twitter.com/rodemmerson/status/1312696542009016320

      • Andre 1.1.1
        5 October 2020 at 7:16 am

        Interesting question, whether there's an NRA backdoor to ACT. But maybe the NRA's current troubles are severe enough they haven't the time, money, or energy for that kind of fuckery.

        • Sacha 1.1.1.1
          5 October 2020 at 7:20 am

          Might be support from other US orgs backed by Koch money etc?

          • Graeme 1.1.1.1.1
            5 October 2020 at 7:27 am

            We've got a big enough firearms industry in New Zealand to play silly buggers without needing overseas help, most of it in one operator.

            • Sacha 1.1.1.1.1.1
              5 October 2020 at 7:31 am

              Someone a few months ago also mentioned that NZ's post-massacre buyback scheme had left many owners flush and motivated to contribute.

              • Graeme …
                5 October 2020 at 9:49 am

                One thing the buy back has done is to point out who the nut cases are to the sane and responsible firearm owners. There's quite a stark division there now and the nutters aren't really listened to. And oddly, most of the 'Fuck 1080" bumper stickers and banners have disappeared. Often the same people.

              • Maurice …
                5 October 2020 at 12:17 pm

                Yep – Over $100 Millions paid out to firearms owners …. if just 1% of that heads in ACT's direction that is a quite large war chest ………

                Unintended Consequences.

                Who knows what the other $99 Millions has been spent on?

                • Graeme …
                  5 October 2020 at 12:46 pm

                  From my small circle who surrendered their semi autos, it was the purchase, or deposit on something much better, and more appropriate for the sort of hunting they do. In all cases no regrets and are wondering why / how they came to buy the semi autos in the first place.

                  Also know someone who qualifies, and is going down the path of being able to legitimately own them.

        • woodart 1.1.1.2
          5 October 2020 at 9:57 am

          dont forget act have form for this behaviour. three strikes prison was pushed by senseless sentencing trust, with david garret as bagman.

  2. Herodotus 2
    5 October 2020 at 7:36 am

    I am struggling to find and policy regarding immigration, there has been a lot of noise regarding shortfalls in our workforce. Last election we were told of a reduction in immigration by all. Yet we achieved records growth.80,000 pa net inflows. Or for both National and Labour will it be open our boarders to all and sundry and then fix any resulting problems?

    https://www.labour.org.nz/policy

    • Stuart Munro 2.1
      5 October 2020 at 8:23 am

      It would be nice to see them just enforcing the law we have.

      Fruit pickers, liquor store checkout operators, or dairy shedhands are not and never have been skilled, and as such never have qualifed for working visas.

      And, the statutory declaration "I could not find any suitable New Zealanders for the position" needs to be challenged in such instances. Most employers seeking these kinds of staff have perjured themselves, and should be prosecuted for it.

      This systematic lawbreaking, often beginning under National, but shamelessly continued under Labour, is a major contributor to entrenched poverty and poor employment practices in NZ.

      • UncookedSelachimorpha 2.1.1
        5 October 2020 at 8:37 am

        My suggestion – no industry can import any labour unless they can't get staff with reasonable working conditions on offer and $35/hr pay. And pay /conditions on offer (including to imported labour) must remain at this level or better the entire time imported labour is used.

      • UncookedSelachimorpha 2.1.2
        5 October 2020 at 8:39 am

        Often NZ industries suffer from a wages shortage, not a labour shortage.

      • Descendant Of Smith 2.1.3
        5 October 2020 at 11:21 am

        RSE essentially tightened up immigration controls in the horticulture industry as it reduced significantly the use of illegal labour and all the associated problems that went with that – people not returning home, orchardists undercutting each other, no PAYE paid to IRD. It also became part of the aid package to the Pacific.

        To some extent John Key opened up the rorting again with allowing students to work full-time while in NZ – English language schools that were fronts for residence and seasonal work.

        Orchard rorts still continue but much reduced from twenty years ago e.g. the slavery case over in Hawkes Bay. Who was the orchardist in the media reports paying him in bags of cash for the last 10 years? Why isn't their name public?

        There is a mis-match between where the supply is and where the work is and sharp peaks. In apples the peak is in picking, in kiwifruit in packing. One is definitely more attractive than the other hence when COVID hit many people jumped to the packhouses.

        We also need to be careful about talking about labour supply that we are not being racist in demanding people work there. NZ Europeans have left the picking of fruit for other better paid, less physically difficult work for years and increasingly those left to pick have been Maori and PI. One hopes that Maori aspire to do more than pick fruit and if we are going to pressure New Zealanders to do this work that that pressure isn't just applied to Maori and PI.

        • Stuart Munro 2.1.3.1
          5 October 2020 at 11:41 am

          If you think RSE tightened up controls it seems that you are mistaken. Segregated accommodation for married couples, harsh lessons in 'not bucking the boss', denied access to migration based on race and background – these are the epiphenomena of a deeply flawed system.

          • Descendant Of Smith 2.1.3.1.1
            5 October 2020 at 1:18 pm

            It was definitely worse before that. I never said it fixed all the problems in the industry.

            Like a lot of the neo-liberal reforms over time the "good employers" got driven out as they couldn't compete with the crappy ones who paid low wages.

            It did get rid of lots of dodgy contractors for instance.

            • Stuart Munro 2.1.3.1.1.1
              5 October 2020 at 1:42 pm

              It's like the government sublet their morality to Treasury. If you only look at the numbers it doesn't matter who picks or prunes, but in terms of the local economy RSE workers don't have much of a spending profile – their portion of GDP is a loss, and Treasury should count it as such – then they might not be quite so keen on end runs around labour laws.

              • Descendant Of Smith …
                5 October 2020 at 2:56 pm

                I'm sure at the time Treasury were more concerned with people coming from overseas, setting themselves up as contractors, then disappearing with all the PAYE and student loan money.

                In this day and age I still don't get why the employer can't be required to simply pay it to IRD each payday – it's not their money – it's the employees.

                That would save hundreds of millions each year in crook employers. My wife went through years of hassle because her employer didn't make the payments deducted out of her pay. Just as well she kept her payslips.

                • Stuart Munro …
                  5 October 2020 at 8:13 pm

                  So we're left with a structure an accountant would call a C minus, and a citizen an F. And exercising structural prejudice against hiring New Zealanders – it should be utterly destroyed.

                  Meanwhile, governments express concern about declining regional economies – as if they hadn't just pulled out much of the cashflow.

                  • Descendant Of Smith …
                    5 October 2020 at 9:03 pm

                    Aye things like the benefit cuts have cost regions hundreds of millions over the years as has the centralisation of public services to main centres.

        • Draco T Bastard 2.1.3.2
          5 October 2020 at 12:42 pm

          Part of the result of economics as practised in NZ is that if a company can't get the workers then it must be uneconomical and closes down. Its not supposed to go whinging to the government for assistance and get an effective subsidy..

    • Anne 2.2
      5 October 2020 at 9:41 am

      Or for both National and Labour will it be open our boarders to all and sundry and then fix any resulting problems?

      NO.

      If you had been keeping up with campaign news you would know that both major parties (Labour definitely and I'm sure I heard Collins say something similar) have indicated they are not planning to use immigration as an election issue because there is too much uncertainty around Covid 19 and its aftermath – words to that effect.

      Wise and sensible while our borders are largely closed. In the meantime, I expect the ‘experts’ are quietly modelling new laws on future immigration policy for the next government to consider as we speak.

      Whether it will be sufficient to solve some of the current problems remains to be seen.

  3. Sacha 3
    5 October 2020 at 7:43 am

    Concise article by a Massey academic and parent on the discrepancy between ACC and our other health and income support options. https://www.stuff.co.nz/manawatu-standard/opinion/300123342/the-accident-compensation-corporation-a-neoliberal-fairy-tale

    The function of the Accident Compensation Corporation as a “top tier” alternative health and welfare system demonstrates the rampant and continuing success of a neoliberal agenda in Aotearoa. If we are going to move anything, we need to move this.

    …

    But let us not forget, this crisis, like the Global Financial Crisis before is working to the advantage of the already wealthy. Neoliberals never let a good crisis go to waste. And sadly, we are all neoliberals now. Even those who yell helplessly into the void, faced with the tyranny of a state-run system that pits my brain injured child against yours because yours was “lucky” enough to be in a car crash, as opposed to a birth crash.

    …

    This pandemic will do one thing for sure: exacerbate. Will it exacerbate inequality, as we are seeing? Or exacerbate our drive for a fairer future?

    • Descendant Of Smith 3.1
      5 October 2020 at 11:27 am

      I have no problem with illness being extended to a higher rate and treated like ACC but we could do this in several ways:

      1. Have an illness levy like an ACC levy
      2. Increase benefits at least to the NZS rate like they used to be
      3. Properly fund the health system

      Replicating he ACC model for illness might not be the right solution.

      Be interested in who you think should pay the levies – employer, worker – what about non-workers? What happens when ACC boot you off for illness if we no longer have a sickness benefit?

    • Draco T Bastard 3.2
      5 October 2020 at 12:51 pm

      ACC needs to be done away with. It was good when it was first put in place but has been truly broken with the neo-liberal tweaks that its suffered under.

      Simple fact of the matter is that health should be free no matter how you ended up in the system.

      Then there needs to be a base benefit that's enough to live on with needs based increases.

      Put more people through training as medical professionals, build more hospitals and clinics around the country and pay them well.

      And, yes, we can afford it as government spending actually boosts the rest of the economy. Need to stop subsidising uneconomic businesses though.

  4. Stephen D 4
    5 October 2020 at 8:04 am

    I feel for the whanau who have lost everything in the McKenzie Basin fires. Big ups to the firefighters and helicopter pilots.

    But what the fuck are we doing farming in that area in the first place. Dry tussock hill country is not suitable for arable farming. Unless heavily watered, which it is.

    As an area of unbelievable natural beauty it should be left that way.

    We sure know how to fuck up a landscape.

    • aj 4.1
      5 October 2020 at 8:37 am

      As an area of unbelievable natural beauty it should be left that way.

      I'm not disagreeing with you. Fly over that basin really brings home the lunacy of dairy farming in the basin.

      RNZ this morning, a farmer said the problem was the land around his farm had been 'locked away' and this 'was just waiting to happen'. Not a lot of thought in that comment.

      I'd be quite interested in how the fire started.

      Thus it is, the divide between developers and environmentalists will always endure

      • Graeme 4.1.1
        5 October 2020 at 9:34 am

        Early report were that it had started from power lines arcing in the wind. The local lines company is frantically trying to hose that down because then it's on the lines company's insurance.

        Fires from arcing powerlines are very common in Waitaki / Central Otago. Central in particular is afflicted by a notoriously tight arsed lines company and the lines aren't maintained properly, stretch in the wind and then start arcing. I've caught one that happened right in front of me driving down the road, fortunately the wind was blowing the right way and a couple of other people turned up and we got it out, could have been very different very easily. And there was nothing 'ungrazed' about this one, but a lot of rural residential carved off to keep the farmers afloat, and a lot of wilding conifers, because 'they look nice' and cost the land owners to control.

        • weka 4.1.1.1
          5 October 2020 at 10:01 am

          How much of this is about inappropriate land management where power lines run?

          • Graeme 4.1.1.1.1
            5 October 2020 at 12:09 pm

            There's certainly land management issues, but they go both ways. The confrontational attitude that lines companies take in managing vegetation, and the resulting minimalist, or non holistic, pruning that results doesn't help. The way the legislation works the land owner ens up with a minimal trim to the regulated limits, but no assistance, in either labour or planning, to manage the vegetation long term.

            Then there's lines that shouldn't be where they are, or are that poorly engineered or managed that arcing and fires are inevitable. A lot of the networks have grown in an ad hoc way with each extension done to the minimum extent in the cheapest way. So you end up with something that wanders all over the place and is quite different to what you'd have if it was rebuilt from scratch. Long established rural areas with multiple phases of rural residential subdivision are terrible for this, above and below ground. Lines and cables everywhere, often not recorded properly or at all.

            The defensive attitude of the lines company here has me wondering if the situation in Ohau wasn't that different to the network around here.

          • Draco T Bastard 4.1.1.1.2
            5 October 2020 at 12:55 pm

            There will certainly be some of that but power lines should be run underground by now which is the other part of the problem. Everyone in the industry knows that overhead power-lines are dangerous but its expensive to put them underground.

        • tc 4.1.1.2
          5 October 2020 at 11:46 am

          "tight arsed lines company" is part of our dysfunctional power industry by design.

          The annual rebate on consumer bills is a political tool of the lines trusts club members. Max Bradfords regionally based gravy train for the old power boards.

          Network strengthening and resilience likely sit back in the queue as they can always blame the weather, which they mostly do.

          • McFlock 4.1.1.2.1
            5 October 2020 at 12:56 pm

            The otago one is a slightly different issue – the city council that owns it dragged out dividends that really should have been spent on lines maintenance, and then they got pinged by a whistleblower when the power poles 30 years past their replacement date started falling over.

            • tc 4.1.1.2.1.1
              5 October 2020 at 3:37 pm

              Sounds exactly like the others McFlock, all a question of priorities as dividends/rebates on accounts etc should come after all the maintenance is up to scratch.

              If you looked at the wooden pole issue across NZ lines companies you'd likely find 'consistency' in this approach with Mother Nature now driving the work reactively.

              • McFlock …
                5 October 2020 at 3:54 pm

                fair enough. Wasn't sure about the "lines trusts". I'm often a bit hazy on precisely the way the world is fucked up, but I know a good stink when I smell it, lol

                • Stuart Munro …
                  5 October 2020 at 8:08 pm

                  Part of the council's thing was to stop central government glomming the whole asset (as they did with Rangiora High School's properties) – so they created a nicely indebted structure to make it unpalatable – good accounting, but they needed a couple of engineers on board to explain infrastructure lifetimes.

                  • McFlock …
                    5 October 2020 at 10:53 pm

                    This would be the same council that fire-sold the generator pre-reforms.

                    But the main reason it needed the dividends was the fecking stadium.

                    • Stuart Munro …
                      6 October 2020 at 6:54 am

                      Goes back a bit before that – but the stadium was certainly a fine model of the third world infrastructure project that needlessly indebts citizens. If not for the Christchurch earthquakes it would have lost even more money. Just have to hope their harbourside monstrosity doesn't go through.

  5. Andre 5
    5 October 2020 at 8:06 am

    That denunciation of Proud Boys that was just too hard for the Fourth Dorkman of the Apocalypse to get out? It might be forthcoming now …

    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/10/4/1983433/-Gay-men-overwhelm-Twitter-taking-back-ProudBoys-and-it-is-glorious

    Or not, since it seems they might be doing a Weekend at Bernie's with him:

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=12370238

  6. Robert Guyton 6
    5 October 2020 at 8:54 am

    Trump's in hospital, and so's Farrar!

    It just got beyond weird (hand-clasped, be-pewed Collin's was freaky enough – now this startling coincidence – OR IS IT???)

    • Stuart Munro 6.1
      5 October 2020 at 11:44 am

      You mean Covid can spread by morphic resonance? Now we're really in trouble!

    • Cinny 6.2
      5 October 2020 at 12:45 pm

      Just to make it a bit weirder…. maureen pugh wasn't at Meet the Candidates in Golden Bay during the weekend.
      She has a cold and as a result is self isolating just in case of Covid.

  7. Dennis Frank 7
    5 October 2020 at 9:26 am

    Toby Manhire makes the case for why it might happen: https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/05-10-2020/how-judith-collins-and-national-win-the-2020-election/

    Recent days have seen Judith Collins making an unmistakable play for votes from people who might have gravitated towards other smaller parties. A sudden run of references to her Christian faith, and a visit to an Anglican church, look like a medium-term play to solidify support in caucus, but also an invitation back to the mothership to the 1.4% of the electorate planning to vote New Conservative, according to the last Colmar Brunton / TVNZ poll.

    There have also been policy embraces of the racing industry – hello the remaining NZ First loyalists (1.4%)! Pronouncements on gun reform in the second debate round off a busy time of pitching the big tent on the right.

    Bit of a stretch, right? His reasoning is weakest when he doesn't explain what would shift centrists away from Labour now. The fact that the Nat leader isn't courting them – is trying to herd neanderthals instead – is a tacit admission of defeat, I reckon.

    But the best bit is his screenshot from ONE News of the TVNZ political editor modelling the 1950s housewife style. Frump, with flowers on. My daughter has been telling me for years that retro styles are huge in younger generations, but I hadn't realised things have gotten that bad.

    • Sacha 7.1
      5 October 2020 at 9:36 am

      Aren't comments about someone's attire just channelling your inner Judith? Or worse, your inner Bowron, musty with talcum. https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/122961639/policy-on-the-hoof-reflected-in-hooves

      • Dennis Frank 7.1.1
        5 October 2020 at 9:40 am

        Normal commentary style here. Trump's orange hair continued to feature persistently long after he blonded it several years ago. When in Rome, do as the Romans do…

        • Sacha 7.1.1.1
          5 October 2020 at 9:44 am

          Perhaps you are just showing your age.

        • weka 7.1.1.2
          5 October 2020 at 9:59 am

          the difference is that the president of the US isn't a class subjected to oppression. Women are routinely subjected to put downs, body shaming, ageism, classism and so on on the basis of their sex class, and additionally that plays into other real world effects of institutional sexism. If we devalue frumpy old women we don't have to pay them as much.

        • SPC 7.1.1.3
          5 October 2020 at 12:21 pm

          The young and 1950's retro … possibly derived from the United States of Tara, that or Mad Men or channelling dead grandparents before their children (it's a form of rebellion).

          As for Tara, Gone with the Wind and Trump's hair, its less a change in colouring as looking different when sprayed on a ligher base, graying hair.

      • Incognito 7.1.2
        5 October 2020 at 10:14 am

        Old Spice and Brylcreem?

        • Sacha 7.1.2.1
          5 October 2020 at 10:15 am

          Eu de RSA.

          • weka 7.1.2.1.1
            5 October 2020 at 10:18 am

            how is ageism a good response to sexism?

            • Sacha 7.1.2.1.1.1
              5 October 2020 at 10:24 am

              Standards change over time. Overconfident old men are not a class subjected to oppression.

              • weka …
                5 October 2020 at 10:33 am

                what's the relevance of old? Are you saying that returned servicemen are overconfident as a class?

                Saying that Dennis deserves to be mocked because he's not part of a class subjected to oppression fails in at least two ways.

                1. old people are a class subjected to oppression

                2. if we say it's ok to mock some people on the basis of age as a class, then why not some people on the basis of body shape/size, or sex and so on?

                • Sacha …
                  5 October 2020 at 10:45 am

                  You seem to be getting caught up in detail here and confusing commentary for 'mocking'. What is acceptable discourse is a function of time, so our ages are relevant. The smell of Old Spice and Brylcreem reminds me of RSAs on rare visits as a kid. May not mean much to younger readers. Maybe more to older ones than me?

                  In this particular case, for years Jessica Mutch's hips were kept out of shot on screen, probably to avoid the sort of erudite rejoinders we saw upthread.

                  Can we all agree that the least interesting thing about the story cited is what she wore, then move on with our days?

                  • woodart …
                    5 October 2020 at 10:48 am

                    yes, way too much outrage. I realise that is default setting for many on here, but is bloody tiresome!

                  • weka …
                    5 October 2020 at 11:11 am

                    if you weren't mocking, I definitely misunderstood. It appears Incog was though.

                  • greywarshark …
                    5 October 2020 at 11:23 am

                    Sacha Old Spice is still on sale at supermarkets. The makers have found that the OTT scents of modern product don't appeal as much to the sense of the olders. As you say let's keep on with the main story, and not be deflected to run after the smell of red herrings.

                • Incognito …
                  5 October 2020 at 10:53 am

                  Dennis is in and of a class of his own and mocking him could be called Dennism 😉

                • greywarshark …
                  5 October 2020 at 12:09 pm

                  Oh come on weka. Don't be so uptight. Let us make rude remarks about each other sometimes. As long as it is give and take. Fr'instance men calling each other 'old bastard' doesn't mean they don't like each other or are calling their mothers' out.

                  I think you have been indoctrinated by some university course, or prolonged reflection and navel gazing one – similar to those I have attended myself, but have shed some of the strictures! I realise to many they are sacred, and everything that is said in them must be written in stone, and objectors bashed on the head with it. Feel free. But please can I be only attacked by one person, not a gang.

          • Incognito 7.1.2.1.2
            5 October 2020 at 10:21 am

            😀

        • Cinny 7.1.2.2
          5 October 2020 at 12:46 pm

          Brut and Blue Stratos? Hehehe

    • Incognito 7.2
      5 October 2020 at 10:08 am

      You know that you are intellectually overreaching when you use labels to generalise ordinary decent citizens as Neanderthals, which is not even stereotypically accurate, don’t you?

      You also know that JC is fighting a rear-guard battle to stem imminent losses of MPs without any medium-term vision or strategy, don’t you?

      And you should also know that it is the camera angle and studio lighting that might make that dress look less flattering, yes?

    • Bearded Git 7.3
      5 October 2020 at 10:54 am

      Toby Manhire is right. If the Greens fall below 5% Judith may well be PM.

      Auckland Central Labour voters should split their vote, giving Chloe Swarbrick the candidate vote and Labour the party vote. This will ensure the Green vote is not wasted so that they can join Labour in coalition.

      In other constituencies a party vote for the Greens is a vote for a more progressive Jacinda government.

      • Sacha 7.3.1
        5 October 2020 at 11:05 am

        For the Greens to drop below 5% would require its previous voters switching to Labour or staying home. The latter seems unlikely this year. The former counters any fantasies about a Judith victory celebration.

        • Uncle Scrim 7.3.1.1
          5 October 2020 at 11:24 am

          Yes the ‘paths to victory’ theorised by Manhire and others require major shifts between blocs, not just between parties. It requires National’s vote to rise significantly to c 40% without taking any of those votes off Act, and for the Greens to dip under 5% without those votes going to Labour.

          • Bearded Git 7.3.1.1.1
            5 October 2020 at 11:56 am

            Wrong Uncle-read the article again.

            • Uncle Scrim 7.3.1.1.1.1
              5 October 2020 at 8:58 pm

              His figures propose Nats 37.5% and Act 8%. The latter is the highest Act have been in any poll in the last few years. I don’t see they’d stay there if Nats climb over the 28-33% they’ve been in recent polls.

        • Bearded Git 7.3.1.2
          5 October 2020 at 11:53 am

          Sacha-Imagine waking up on Oct 18 to PM Crusher per the Toby Manhire article.

          How would you feel?

        • Craig H 7.3.1.3
          5 October 2020 at 5:23 pm

          Or enough extra voters coming out in force without voting for the Greens that they drop below 5% (very unlikely, but thought I'd mention the slight possibility).

      • Incognito 7.3.2
        5 October 2020 at 11:09 am

        Powerful forces are at work. JC prays to God and even Sir John is back in the house as if he never left. Fortunately, ponytails are relatively safe due to social distancing rules.

        • I Feel Love 7.3.2.1
          5 October 2020 at 11:22 am

          Anecdotal stuff here, but I heard the voting places around Otago university are pumping, apparently the referendum is getting a lot of young ppl voting, could be interesting if it really is a trend.

          • Incognito 7.3.2.1.1
            5 October 2020 at 11:53 am

            You think it is due to just the one referendum? Even that would be good news!

            I think younger people have many reasons as to why they should engage and vote but apathy has ruled for years and not just voter apathy.

            • Corey Humm 7.3.2.1.1.1
              5 October 2020 at 6:38 pm

              Yes many people who have never voted are coming out to vote for the first time in years or ever for weed.

              I keep getting asked by people if they can leave their party and candidate vote blank and just vote for the referendum (I think that's a an incomplete ballot? Though should be an option) so I expect much of that to go to the greens and top and there will be a bunch of people who just vote for some random parties with no chance (like TOP or legalize marijuana or even soc cred) still if it gets weed passed, good.

              • Incognito …
                5 October 2020 at 6:45 pm

                When they first suggested holding two referendums at the General Election I thought it could be too much, overloading people, and putting them off voting altogether. I’ll be gladly proven wrong 🙂

                • Andre …
                  5 October 2020 at 7:22 pm

                  I suspect one of the reasons turnout is so low in the US is it's such a pain. Most places you're voting for an order of magnitude more candidates than even Auckland local government. Feels like everybody is on the ballot down to third assistant dog-catcher.

                  If it's paper ballots, it's a stack like a magazine, or in Pennsylvania the voting booth had a machine with more levers to turn than a nuclear power station control room.

                  So a mere four ticks to think about – dead easy.

                  • Incognito …
                    5 October 2020 at 7:45 pm

                    Agreed, make it as simple as possible, which is necessary but not sufficient for high voter turnout. In other words, it is not good enough for people to have no excuse not to vote, but they have to have an actual reason to vote. Merely ticking boxes of a Candidate and a Party is barely enough, it seems, and for some it is not even enough. I hope my writing is improving because I know Morrissey is reading 😉

                  • Macro …
                    5 October 2020 at 9:24 pm

                    I suspect one of the reasons turnout is so low in the US is it's such a pain. Most places you're voting for an order of magnitude more candidates than even Auckland local government. Feels like everybody is on the ballot down to third assistant dog-catcher.

                    Exactly.

                    This is called "democracy". Except the right, and opportunity to vote is being eroded day by day – State Law by State Law – county by county and district by district.

                    https://twitter.com/PoliticoRyan/status/1312989158730862594?s=19

              • I Feel Love …
                5 October 2020 at 8:47 pm

                Not sure Corey, you get 3 separate pieces of paper for voting, one for election, and 2 for each referendum, I would think you can vote for all 3, or just one? I'm not sure of course but just the fact it's all separate I assumed that? For what it's worth I voted Green Party, Labour candidate, and Yes & Yes for referenda. Walked in, stated my name, and voted. So easy, we got a lot to be thankful for in this country.

                • Incognito …
                  5 October 2020 at 8:51 pm

                  Do I have to vote in both referendums and the General Election?

                  At this year's General Election, New Zealanders can vote in:

                  • the General Election
                  • a referendum on the proposed Cannabis Legalisation and Control Bill
                  • a referendum on the End of Life Choice Act 2019.

                  Eligible voters can choose to vote in all, some, or none of these.

                  https://www.referendums.govt.nz/faq.html

          • woodart 7.3.2.1.2
            5 October 2020 at 12:42 pm

            yes, think the fact there are two important referendum along with general election, and covid fallout, will lead to a high voter turnout. usually not good news for conservative parties.

    • SPC 7.4
      5 October 2020 at 11:23 am

      Who knows, maybe in a few years erudite experts on popular culture will explain how the pandemic lockdowns and loss of female employment exacerbated existing trends towards delivery of food then cooked and prepared for dinner parties. As women reclaimed the home as their dominion for meaningful work and identity.

      All while men resumed dominance of life in the wider world in a way not seen since the Greeks first made up democracy and western civilisation.

      Of course New Zealand under an Ardern government would have to be ostracised as a socialist outlier …

      • greywarshark 7.4.1
        5 October 2020 at 11:37 am

        SPC What action oriented women wanted was choice. The ability to get out and do things in society, not be embedded at home and treated as a 'drawing' on the household budget, and remaining in men's minds at about the age of 18, just over the age of consent and no more.

        Unfortunately the male-oriented capitalistic culture always willing to pick out religious strictures about where women belong in society chose to elevate male’s true interest, that of making money, over the building of a good and fair society of strong characters. Women's work is dismissed, child rearing also, socialisation and building character and skills also, and women are forced into level entry jobs that teenagers preparing for their work life should be able to access.

        That is the background to the present situation of many women. They aren't better than men, but are certainly are worthy of a lot more respect and attention to their ideas and smarts than now happens. And they would like to be at home more and able to carry out their child-raising duties adequately. But most would not want to be stuck there, instead enabled to get part-time work with school holidays off while the children are young. Later to move further into the enterprise and trading society, not objects of charity or dependency for life.

        • SPC 7.4.1.1
          5 October 2020 at 11:45 am

          Job sharing would work, but men would have to learn how to use Zoom (as well as a car) and multi-task if there were children about.

          • Descendant Of Smith 7.4.1.1.1
            5 October 2020 at 12:03 pm

            TBH the cat walking across my keyboard, wanting pats, rubbing up against the monitor, meowing loudly on calls and pinching my seat as soon as I get up are bigger problems than the children that frequent the house.

            The dog at least just pokes his head in the door says "Oh you're still there" and wanders off again!

            • lprent 7.4.1.1.1.1
              5 October 2020 at 1:01 pm

              Right now, we have budgie sitting while family are off on a holiday annoying grandparents. I think that I’d prefer the squabbling kids.

              Having the choice, I have retreated back to the workplace. In a 55 square metre apartment, I have decided that there isn’t really room for budgies.

              The cat was ok – you just provide a unused laptop with its builtin heater and keyboard where they can supervise. Then use the 10 foot throw so they have to think about landing on their feet as entertainment when you have to remove them from place that are your spaces. They learn fast. Just not fast enough about motorway off-ramps – damnit.

              • RedBaronCV …
                5 October 2020 at 3:28 pm

                I'm sure a quick ad in the very local suburb news will produce some children in exchange for the budgie.

                Walks off whistling "you don't know how lucky you are……"

            • Macro 7.4.1.1.1.2
              5 October 2020 at 1:50 pm

              Yeah! You gotta watch those pussy cats!

              https://media1.giphy.com/media/unQ3IJU2RG7DO/giphy.gif

          • greywarshark 7.4.1.1.2
            5 October 2020 at 12:43 pm

            SPC Job-sharing – perhaps. But women getting out into the wider world from the home and family is also good. Helps to enable full adult and social growth and understanding, (getting towards Maslow's ideas of self-realisation).

            However to digress, I forecast that there will be more small family-owned businesses making small profits but being regularly in work, employing children etc – back to medieval approach. The march of the large corps(es) have and will continue to kill off many of our previous jobs.

            The only way for society and community to survive is to practise circular trade with each other, so circulating money and enabling each other. This will provide the well-known multiplier effect, and build lively and busy towns, with lots of social contact, while big business tries to put spokes in everyone's wheels. The wealthy class and leaders might start taxing wheels as a good flat tax! The money-magnets will always be looking for ways to get their fingers in the pie. A tax on windows once, when glass was scarce.

            https://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/view/document/obo-9780195396584/obo-9780195396584-0236.xml
            Family Life in the Middle Ages Jacqueline Murray

            http://www.localhistories.org/middleageswomen.html

            https://rosaliegilbert.com/employment.html

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_household#Rural

            https://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/users/rauch/worktime/hours_workweek.html – Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's

            https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26289459 – What medieval Europe did with its teenagers

            google keywords for further info: – medieval women at work in family business

  8. Dennis Frank 8
    5 October 2020 at 9:37 am

    Once again Vernon Tava gets it wrong. Timed his run too late, then shot himself in the foot.

    The Sustainable New Zealand Party has admitted that a woman featured in one of its online video advertisements is not a small business owner named Jill, but is the partner of the party's leader.

    However, a senior lecturer for marketing at Auckland University said there was a chance the ad breached advertising standards. "I think that portraying her as a small business owner, not disclosing the fact that she is an actor and is in fact his partner, I think that most people would see that as not quite telling the full truth," Dr Bodo Lang said.

    Lang pointed to the second principle in the Advertising Standards Code called 'Truthful Presentation'. The section states that ads must not mislead, or be likely to mislead, deceive or confuse consumers or exploit their lack of knowledge. "This includes by implication, inaccuracy, ambiguity, exaggeration, unrealistic claim, omission, false representation or otherwise."

    Tava said he did not believe the ad to be genuinely misrepresentative or misleading at all. https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300123635/election-2020-sustainable-nz-campaign-advert-uses-actor-to-play-party-supporter

    Poor Vernon. Obviously, the ad was not only misleading – it was designed to mislead! What part of authenticity doesn't he get? Every part.

  9. Dennis Frank 9
    5 October 2020 at 10:52 am

    Bruce, on being a leftist:

    Springsteen is still willing to dive directly into politics, as his approval of — and brief appearance in — a Democratic National Convention video using “The Rising” in August made clear. https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/bruce-springsteen-interview-new-album-touring-e-street-band-1059109/

    He’s found the past few years to be a “very disturbing time.” “Overall, as somebody who was a born populist,” he says, “I’ve got a little less faith in my neighbors than I had four years ago.”

    Many on the left — including Springsteen’s friend Tom Morello — see Trump as more of a symptom of larger problems, I point out. “I’m probably not as left as Tom,” says Springsteen. “But look, if we want to have the America that we envision, it’s going to need some pretty serious systemic changes moving leftward.”

    As for the leading politician on the left: “I like Bernie Sanders a lot,” Springsteen says. “I don’t know if he was my main choice, my first choice. I like Elizabeth Warren, I like Bernie.” For the moment, though, he is fully on board with the centrist Democratic nominee. “The power of the American idea has been abandoned,” Springsteen says.

    “It’s a terrible shame, and we need somebody who can bring that to life again.… I think if we get Joe Biden, it’s gonna go a long way towards helping us regain our status around the world. The country as the shining light of democracy has been trashed by the administration. We abandoned friends, we befriended dictators, we denied climate science.”

    • Nic the NZer 9.1
      5 October 2020 at 11:30 am

      Is Bruce a covergence moon bat?

      • Dennis Frank 9.1.1
        5 October 2020 at 11:45 am

        Doubt it. Normally comes across as sensible. I always get a sense that he inherited leftism from his working-class dad. See the song Factory, for instance.

        End of the day, factory whistle cries
        Men walk through these gates with death in their eyes

        • tc 9.1.1.1
          5 October 2020 at 11:54 am

          Bruce's never done a hard days manual labour work or been in a factory, he admits that as most think that's his past based on the music.

          10 years of solid gigging with the East Street band are his dues prior to ‘fame’ he's simply one of the best songwriters about able to convey emotion in a tune.

        • Morrissey 9.1.1.2
          5 October 2020 at 1:37 pm

          "Normally comes across as sensible."

          ?????????

          "Sensible"? Really? Then who's this singing out for Barack Obama in 2012? Not in the “hope and change” year of 2008, mind you, but after four years of signing off on drone killings (all of them illegal), shaking hands with and being lionized by human rights abusers, continuing the war against democratic governments in Central and South America, and persecuting and imprisoning U.S. and Australian journalists.

          • Dennis Frank 9.1.1.2.1
            5 October 2020 at 3:35 pm

            Folks who lead a busy life often don't keep up with politics, nor pay much other than scant attention to headline news stories. You tend to see black & white all the time. Others see shades of grey, some pale, some dark, some in between…

            • Morrissey 9.1.1.2.1.1
              5 October 2020 at 5:10 pm

              Folks who lead a busy life often don't keep up with politics, nor pay much other than scant attention to headline news stories.

              Bruce Springsteen is certainly busy. Too busy to think or care about the implications of backing a war criminal. In fact, three war criminals in successive elections.

              You tend to see black & white all the time.

              Actually, as you will admit when you cool down, my thinking is a lot more sophisticated and subtle than that. But when it comes to people who order the killing of civilians, the destruction of democracy, and the persecution of journalists, yes, I do see such criminality in "black & white."

              Others see shades of grey, some pale, some dark, some in between…

              There's a way to finesse the killing of civilians and the undermining and/or destruction of democratic governments in Central and South America?

      • Andre 9.1.3
        5 October 2020 at 12:27 pm

        Is Bruce [Springsteen] a covergence moon bat?

        Almost certainly not.

        Being fully on board with Biden is one strong indicator.

        He was an unequivocal Hillary supporter in '16, instead of ranting about how Dems and Repugs are equally bad and Bernie wuz robbed and how he would vote for Stein or not at all.

        AFAIK he's never suggested the likes of Tucker Carlson 'get it' or tried to smear movements such as BLM by calling them marxist or indulged in other white-supremacist-adjacent behaviour.

        Nor has he ever shown any other behaviour associated with convergence moonbats, to my knowledge.

        • Morrissey 9.1.3.1
          5 October 2020 at 1:43 pm

          Being fully on board with Biden is one strong indicator.

          angry Yikes! “The Boss” has spent far too much time singing hoarsely, not enough time reading and thinking.

          He was an unequivocal Hillary supporter in '16….

          surprise

          AFAIK he's never suggested the likes of Tucker Carlson 'get it' or tried to smear movements such as BLM by calling them marxist or indulged in other white-supremacist-adjacent behaviour.

          If he’s such a progressive and tolerant person, then why is he supporting Biden? And why was he an "unequivocal Hillary supporter" in 2016? Clinton?

          • Incognito 9.1.3.1.1
            5 October 2020 at 1:56 pm

            Maybe The Boss is not familiar with your oeuvre, Mr Breen, the illiterate uncultured heathen he is.

            • Morrissey 9.1.3.1.1.1
              5 October 2020 at 1:58 pm

              You're probably right. I doubt he reads much at all.

              • Incognito …
                5 October 2020 at 2:06 pm

                You're probably right. I doubt he has much time at all, in between the writing. In any case, why read when you can write?

                • Morrissey …
                  5 October 2020 at 5:14 pm

                  To write well, you have to read. That explains why, for instance, Jeffrey Archer is such an appalling writer. And Cameron "Whaleoil" Slater.

                  • Andre …
                    5 October 2020 at 5:25 pm

                    By that standard, you've apparently never read anything significant in your life.

                    Explains all the third rate attempts at stenography, tho.

                    • Morrissey …
                      5 October 2020 at 5:33 pm

                      …you've apparently never read anything significant in your life. Explains all the third rate attempts at stenography, tho.

                      Well that little effort was not as colorful as your ever-inventive cascade of abuse for the Orange Shit-Gibbon, or whatever witty putdown you're about to employ for the Fanta Fascist. Just as lame, however.

                      Keep trying, my friend. By the way, what's the state of progress in the search for that missing bit of evidence proving that Drumpf is a Russian puppet? crying

                  • Incognito …
                    5 October 2020 at 6:40 pm

                    Not sure that applies to writing songs/music in the same way as, say, writing literature. Neither does storytelling rely on reading necessarily and many cultures, including Māori, of course, have a long and rich oral tradition in storytelling. I think living with open eyes and an open mind, observing, creating experiences, and meeting other people and travelling, for example, are probably more important for writing well than reading other people’s words.

    • PaddyOT 10.1
      5 October 2020 at 12:44 pm

      When something pernicious is reframed by Judith as an employment scheme to give the 'dodgy' lot a chance..you know( you know that lot)…. then sack them.

      " Collins said she backed 90-day trials.

      "They give businesses confidence to give people a go, when … maybe there's something with that person – maybe there's something in their background, maybe they're not quite qualified enough, maybe they're not that experienced, maybe they don't know them that well.

      Maybe they're a different ethnicity – you know, this is about actually giving people a chance "

      • RedBaronCV 10.1.1
        5 October 2020 at 3:23 pm

        So Judith thinks the employers of this country are all pretty much racist? Oh dear – these employers need state support to overcome their racism??

        • Descendant Of Smith 10.1.1.1
          5 October 2020 at 7:22 pm

          Someone should ask Michael Barnett or Phil O'Reilly a direct question about whether they agree with Judith Collins that small employers need 90 days to overcome their fear of employing someone of a different ethnicity.

          I'd love to see them squirm in response……

    • Brigid 10.2
      5 October 2020 at 1:37 pm

      Oh god she's horrible.

      It's never ever occurred to her that the employer employee relationship should be reciprocal. An equal partnership.

      'give people a go'

      fuksake

    • AB 10.3
      5 October 2020 at 2:08 pm

      Judith is loved by the base because she says the quiet bits out loud. Having to keep the quiet bits quiet feels like oppression, like being 'told what to think'. By saying it out loud Judith breaks the shackles of this 'oppression' and champions 'freedom of speech'. Undoubtedly God agrees, because he/she/it speaks through Judith.

      • PaddyOT 10.3.1
        5 October 2020 at 3:38 pm

        " the quiet bit"

        Instead of addressing underlying issues such as causes of people having 'backgrounds' , worker exploitation, non-livable wages or the sacking of workers for unseemly profit margins, it's Judith's innuendo (" the quiet bit" ) that it's okay that innate prejudice exists, that there is a boss with 'superior' knowledge and ethnicity …

        Hey Judith while you're playing to the base secret supremacist, say it out loud…
        Subjectively, One is only, you know, " a different ethnicity " when you Judith are looking in the mirror.

        There'll be though that 1/10 grateful lepers out there for 90 days, dismissed on a whim, who's then on a WINZ stand down.

  11. Andre 11
    5 October 2020 at 12:34 pm

    The Weekend at Bernie's similarities just keep coming. Now they've propped him up in a car to wheel him around for a few minutes in front of adoring Drumpfkins.

    Come to think of it, how do we know it was really him? Could have been a crisis actor.

    https://edition.cnn.com/2020/10/04/politics/donald-trump-coronavirus-alternate-reality/index.html

  12. Incognito 12
    5 October 2020 at 1:19 pm

    Level 1

  13. greywarshark 13
    5 October 2020 at 1:23 pm

    I looked at an old Punch and came across Edwina Currie – she was done on Spitting Image. This is a small break from The Election and the buskers involved – so out of tune many of them aren't they!

    Currie came across as a lively speaker in Punch so I looked her up and here she is being interviewed in 2012. This gives an interesting example to compare with our women pollies or how they are presented anyway. Currie was in the Conservatives. https://www.theguardian.com/uk/edwina-currie

    (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5j4D9iU4nac

    Today's Spitting Image.

    Here she is in full flow at the Oxford Union. Topic: We are not all feminists. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cSrX2FJ-Q8

    • McFlock 13.1
      5 October 2020 at 2:42 pm

      The NZ covid song was pretty funny, up until they did the "island with small population" bullshit. Fuck that excuse is getting old. If our PM was a dickhead we'd have covid through the roof just like they do.

  14. Ad 14
    5 October 2020 at 1:41 pm

    And to celebrate Jacinda bringing Auckland back down to Level 1, let's all sing along to the Spitting Image song

    SuperKiwiSocialisticExtraGoodJacinda

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501119&objectid=12370354

    • greywarshark 14.1
      5 October 2020 at 2:00 pm

      Spitting Image fired their gun at a sensitive spot though. We are trying to stop people firing guns, not spot them. Bad people at spitting image, they don't know what's truly funny in the UK, their tastebuds have become coarsened with indulgence in jeremymandering, our rosebuds are still blooming, just.

    • Chris T 14.2
      5 October 2020 at 6:44 pm

      Amazing. Who would have predicted that with the rugby in a post…….

  15. greywarshark 15
    5 October 2020 at 1:49 pm

    This sounds intersting – something for those with election malaise to have a look at

    https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/BU2010/S00063/its-not-too-late-govt-can-save-marsden-point-by-partnering-on-a-just-transition.htm

    Refining NZ have this morning confirmed that around 100 jobs will be cut as the first part of its Strategic Review concludes, but FIRST Union says that it isn’t too late to save more jobs, assets and infrastructure while transitioning to cleaner and greener operations if the Government are serious about a Just Transition for Marsden Point….

  16. millsy 16
    5 October 2020 at 2:10 pm

    Poll today?

    • Macro 17.1
      5 October 2020 at 3:39 pm

      My thoughts entirely!

      Just this morning I was musing to myself on the hypocrisy of Trump being cared for by a team of doctors and nurses and contributing hardly a cent to the public expense of such care being lavished upon him. And, at the same time doing his utmost to deprive millions of his fellow Americans, even the bare minimum of the treatment that he was receiving.

      It also astounds me that the woman he has nominated for the Supreme Court; having had the way to the position she currently holds, paved for her by the tenacity of RBG, should now be even considering pulling up the ladder which she has climbed. Much like Pulla Benefit did to the women of NZ.

  18. greywarshark 18
    5 October 2020 at 4:29 pm

    This USA commentator was concerned about loss of USA civil liberties and democracy mid last century – Edmund Wilson.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmund_Wilson#Cold_War
    In his book The Cold War and the Income Tax: A Protest (1963), Wilson argued that as a result of competitive militarization against the Soviet Union, the civil liberties of Americans were being paradoxically infringed under the guise of defense from Communism. For those reasons, Wilson also opposed involvement in the Vietnam War. …

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cold_War_and_the_Income_Tax
    He's shocked and alarmed at the sums spent to fuel the arms race with the Soviet Union, and upset also at how enthusiastically his government pursues chemical, biological and nuclear weapons technology — what now gets lumped under the "Weapons of Mass Destruction" banner. He determines, finally, that:

    When the stakes in games become so serious — when everybody's life is at stake — they ought not to be played at all, and the taxpayers should not support them. But the taxpayers do support them, and that is why we cannot halt these activities.

    And later:

    I have said that it was difficult to understand, in what we call our free world, how it can come about that a scientist who has been working on CBR [Chemical, Biological and Radiological weapons] but is dubious about the morality of what he is doing should not find it in his power to resign. But how free are we citizens of this free world to resign from the gigantic and demented undertakings to which our government has got us committed?

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