Open mike 06/12/2023

40 comments on “Open mike 06/12/2023 ”

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1. Dennis Frank 1

   6 December 2023 at 6:17 am

   You didn't know that hippies are politically influential in Aotearoa, did you? It's to dispell such ignorance that Shane is spreading the word. I saw him doing so on One News & 3 News last night:

   "It is preposterous that the Māori Party should think that they are the authentic voice for Māori New Zealanders. I remind everyone again that party got less than 3 percent of the vote and a lot of their party voters were not Maori, a lot of them were hippies." https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2023/12/te-p-ti-m-ori-mps-defend-parliament-swearing-in-actions-shane-jones-calls-it-excessive.html

   Whilst most kiwi males are comfortable with traditional excessive swearing, and thus likely to feel solidarity with TMP on that basis, they probably still have the old idea that hippies lie around stoned all the time in their heads. The wake-up call from Shane could perturb them somewhat.
   • Macro 1.1

     6 December 2023 at 9:44 am

     Bloody Hippies!

     https://youtu.be/auA8jy8km8o?t=1572
     • Dennis Frank 1.1.1

       6 December 2023 at 9:56 am

       Cultural commentary, artistry & excessive swearing. Nicely blended with harmony, catchy tune…
2. Dennis Frank 2

   6 December 2023 at 7:13 am

   Natives getting restless?

   Kiingi Tuheitia has issued a royal proclamation calling for a national hui for Māori to unite over ensuring "all voices are heard when holding the new coalition government to account". Te Paki o Matariki, the highest form of proclamation by the king, has been issued after rangatira from around the country expressed "a very clear message" to the Kiingitanga during an event celebrating its 165th anniversary held over the weekend.

   https://www.1news.co.nz/2023/12/06/maori-king-calls-for-national-hui-on-unity-holding-govt-to-account/

   The call is supported by iwi leaders including Ngāti Tūwharetoa's paramount chief Sir Tumu Te Heuheu and head of Rātana Church Manuao Te Kohamutunga Tamou… The event will be held at Tūrangawaewae Marae in Ngaruawahia on January 20, whereby the "mauri of the hui" will be carried on to the annual Rātana and Waitangi Day celebrations later in the year.

   kotahitanga – unity, solidarity, collective action

   Calling for all voices to be heard is crowd-sourcing wisdom. The process seems designed to form common ground. A sensible basis for consensus decision-making.
3. Pat 3

   6 December 2023 at 7:20 am

   "Currently there are no legitimate units that the Government can purchase from overseas. I made mention of that in my previous article two weeks ago. The Climate Change Commission knows this and the Labour Government had also come to that conclusion by the end of its term, although basically they kept that to themselves. It is now the task of the new coalition to work their way through that."

   Our troubled ETS and response to climate change.

   https://www.interest.co.nz/rural-news/125551/stopping-ets-review-solves-one-carbon-forestry-issue-meantime-also-brings-other

   This is a comment from the author of the linked article. The author can always be relied upon to examine things rationally without any political bias….a rare thing indeed in this troubled world.
   • lprent 3.1

     6 December 2023 at 7:49 am

     Basically the author of this piece starts from a completely false assumption. He assumes that sequestration via forests is useful in climate change. It is a waste of effort and time. There are a lot of reasons to forest. But climate change isn’t one of them.

     The fundamental problem with it is that forestry isn’t useful for climate change gases sequestration unless the forest debris is allowed to go under water in a anaerobic state.

     This is a timescale issue. Human generated climate change is being caused by rapidly releasing fossil carbon from previous geological epochs over the past 200+ years. It is completely idiotic to think that a forest that will either be cut or involved in a fire within a few decades is useful for sequestration. It is just a very short step on the transient carbon cycle. Same for wood uses like housing (expected maximum life 6 decades), furniture (expected maximum life 1 decade), paper (expected max life less than a year).

     The only use for sequestration if carbon can be sequestered for a minimum of several centuries in non-oxidising conditions.

     Then it has a impact against the extra fossil carbon already released if and only if no further fossil carbon is released. In the mean time all sequestration is pointless if new fossil carbon is being extracted, burnt, and released.

     The ETS should exclude all forestry unless forestry owners have a swamp ready to take forest debris and logged wood and the legal title prevents any draining of that swamp.

     However maintaining deep anaerobic swamps is useful – that is what the ETS should support.
     • Robert Guyton 3.1.1

       6 December 2023 at 8:40 am

       "The only use for sequestration if carbon can be sequestered for a minimum of several centuries in non-oxidising conditions."

       Yes. I've been promoting this for a long time now having listened to the pilot a tourist boat on one of the West Coast lakes describing the logs spilt from barges carrying them across the water, lying still, fully intact, on the lake bed, many decades later.

       It's obvious where we have to sequester our carbon. Grow the forests. Sink the logs.
       I wonder, did this happen naturally? Trees fall, wash down rivers into the sea then sink into deep ocean trenches?
       I bet they did. Nowadays, we have very little driftwood in the ocean, having far fewer forests on the land.
       • Francesca 3.1.1.1

         6 December 2023 at 10:10 am

         It's incredibly complex

         https://e360.yale.edu/features/scientists-probe-the-surprising-role-of-trees-in-methane-emissions

         particularly in wetlands
         • Robert Guyton 3.1.1.1.1

           6 December 2023 at 11:12 am

           Or incredibly simple

           "Nobody is arguing that trees are therefore bad for climate and should be cut down. Indeed, in most cases, their carbon storage capability easily outweighs their methane emissions."

           The "methane from tree"s issue occurs where forests are flooded for significant periods, a minor aspect across global forests.

           But yes, interesting, Francesca.
     • UncookedSelachimorpha 3.1.2

       6 December 2023 at 11:11 am

       Replacing pasture with forest retains some carbon, but obviously at best only carbon previously released from deforestation, not the massive input from fossil fuels.

       I have often wondered if a good use of forest slash (and maybe entire plantation forests) might be biochar – enhances soil productivity and locks carbon in soils for potentially many centuries. Grow the forest -> carbonise -> repeat.

       It appears that the carbon will be sequestered for a thousand—possibly thousands—of years, unable to contribute to global warming in the form of greenhouse gases. Green charcoal, or biochar made from agricultural residues or renewable biomass, appears to hold the most promise as a carbon sink. Every ton of this biochar in the soil is capable of capturing and holding at least 3 tons of carbon.
       • Robert Guyton 3.1.2.1

         6 December 2023 at 11:15 am

         Biochar, sure, if we can be assured that the gases created in its production are inconsequential, or at least, easily captured.

         Farmers! Burn your piles of branches and hedge trimmings from the top down! 🙂
         • gsays 3.1.2.1.1

           6 December 2023 at 12:33 pm

           Biochar made in a retort utilizes the wood gases to use as fuel for the carbonation process.

           Smoke that leaves the retort can be condensed by cooling and used as a myriad of helpful products.

           Pyroligneous acid or wood vinegar is a great fertilizer, insecticide, fungicide, germination aid as well as a bird repellent all depending on dilution rates.

           Not telling you how to suck eggs Robert, more for general elucidation.

           https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=svNg5w7WY0k&t=1508s&pp=ygUUbGl2aW5nIGZhcm1zIGJvb2NoYXI%3D
           These guys have series of vids on YT on biochar and other products.
     • Pat 3.1.3

       6 December 2023 at 2:53 pm

       Oddly enough many trees live for centuries….sometimes millennia.

       As to what assumptions the author has made that may depend upon the purpose of the piece…is it an appraisal of our ETS implications or is it an appraisal of the benefits of forestry for GG emissions (or both).

       Wetlands themselves are problematic especially in a warming climate.
       • francesca 3.1.3.1

         6 December 2023 at 3:07 pm

         And we have our local volunteer fire brigade(amazing guys) warning us about higher Temps this summer and probably drought and the necessity of chopping trees in a 10 metre radius around our houses and keep it mowed

         Personally I have planted deciduous and native evergreens like griselinia and flaxes as a fire retardant in that zone

         There's no way I am going to live in a barren wasteland

         I'll take my chances
         • Pat 3.1.3.1.1

           6 December 2023 at 4:20 pm

           I'll take my chances too….nothing like a bit of shade from a grand old oak
4. SPC 4

   6 December 2023 at 7:52 am

   Sean Plunkett reaches out for a new low in media communications – by calling those wearing Palestinian clothing, dressing like a rapist.

   https://twitter.com/SeanPlunket/status/1731884391335374969
   • Tiger Mountain 4.1

     6 December 2023 at 8:22 am

     That is pretty appalling on various levels including stereotyping of Palestinians. He is talking about members of the NZ Parliament here.

     John Key played the rape card in the house one time (during the Australian off shore detention debate) that caused a walk out by women MPs.

     Some pundits really are off their heads these days.
     • Chris 4.1.1

       6 December 2023 at 8:57 am

       Plunket ain't no pundit.
   • lprent 4.2

     6 December 2023 at 8:49 am

     Clearly Plunkett hasn’t focused on the many reports of what happens to Palestinian women, men, and children shoved into Israeli civilian or military prisons, courts, interrogations and military or police capture. After selecting from the first page of a single query…

     https://www.berghahnjournals.com/view/journals/conflict-and-society/9/1/arcs090105.xml
     https://english.wafa.ps/Pages/Details/111828
     
     https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67581915

     Sean Plunkett is such a complete arsehole, that I feel confident in saying that in my opinion that Plunkett would say that they were asking for it because they were Palestinians.

     He really is ignorant pig who will excuse anything if it agrees with his bigotry.
   • Bearded Git 4.3

     6 December 2023 at 8:57 am

     That is just about the worst thing I have ever seen.

     I watched Aljazeera for an hour or so yesterday-an entirely different take on the Palestine situation to the MSM. Horrific treatment of civilians-the Israelis continue to conduct war crimes daily. Not just in Gaza but also on the West Bank. But the Gaza attacks are not going well, and the international community is starting to realise through the fog of propaganda what is really happening.

     Well done the Greens for standing by the Palestinians.
5. Adrian 5

   6 December 2023 at 9:03 am

   But are swamps the answer, surely that’s where almost all the methane comes from, with the exception of ruminants, but to grow logs to stick them in swamps means we would have to create even more swamps and even more methane. What are the mechanics of getting a log to actually sink? I would imagine it is quite a long process as it is more likely to wash up and rot on the shore not mention the navigation problems as well as the danger of giving the forestry industry an out “ See, slash is actually good for the environment , we need more slash”. Yeah, right.

   Want a solution, albeit temporary, only a couple of thousand years or so. ..plant a kauri or a rimu et al.
   • ianmac 5.1

     6 December 2023 at 9:16 am

     Adrian I thought Iprent and Robert's point was not to drown all the forests, but to doubt that forests were even a viable means of climate change.
   • Robert Guyton 5.2

     6 December 2023 at 9:24 am

     Hi Adrian – yours are valid concerns. I'm promoting the planting of vast forests to replace those lost to civilisations spread, while at the same time sequestering logs-that-sink, hardwood, into deep, cold lakes and ocean trenches. Standing forests are vital to us all, for a number of reasons. The sinking of dense tree-trunks (not "slash") is the most effective, viable method of taking carbon out of the cycle long enough to effect the amount floating about the atmosphere as gas.
6. Chris 6

   6 December 2023 at 9:49 am

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/301021346/tova-obrien-splitting-heirs-giggling-gerties-and-ructions-in-national-over-mori–parliament-is-back

   The first hint of the inevitable unrest amongst Maori nat MPs seems to have emerged. Rabid right-winger Trish Sherson was the canary in the coal mine so it was just a matter of time. Old right heavyweights will be next to raise their heads. Luxon and Willis will be like possums in headlights. This isn't going to end well for the government.
   • Dennis Frank 6.1

     6 December 2023 at 10:13 am

     One can always hope:

     Waititi said, “nobody got hurt today, lightning didn’t come down and fire anybody up the arse”.

     Ritualised biodiversity is what parliament is for:

     Labour’s Willie Jackson gave Peters’ a “boo!” when he announced his return.

     NZ First’s Shane Jones went on to accuse the party of excessive “kapa haka theatrics” and Seymour called the events “performative narcissism”.

     All these Maori politicians using oppositional stances at each other are classic exhibitions of biodiversity.

     Six times Stuff asked Māori Crown Relations Minister Tama Potaka if he backed the government’s policy agenda when it comes to Māori or if he’s raised concerns with his cabinet colleagues and Prime Minister. Six times he skirted the question.

     Excellent performance from a guy still on training wheels, eh? Only the second week, and he's already set himself up for crossing the floor to Labour.

     https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/301021346/tova-obrien-splitting-heirs-giggling-gerties-and-ructions-in-national-over-mori–parliament-is-back
7. Dennis Frank 7

   6 December 2023 at 10:58 am

   Happened a fortnight ago but maybe flew under msm radar: https://newsroom.co.nz/2023/11/22/tiny-group-celebrates-win-over-water-bottling-giant/

   Too diligent to qualify as hippie, but does have hair cred:

   On Monday, a Supreme Court judgment threw out an appeal by Chinese-owned water bottler Cloud Ocean Water in favour of Richardson’s lobby group, Aotearoa Water Action, ending a five-year, publicly funded legal battle. “I always thought they would come to that decision, but you never know,” says the 62-year-old, who practises mainly commercial and property law… ECan, Canterbury’s regional council, decided both companies could use the water consents they’d acquired for a different purpose than was originally granted, and then approved merging the new consents with the old. The public wasn’t notified. Aotearoa Water Action (AWA) was formed in 2018 to fight the consent decisions.

   So, after that saga the moral of the story is sufficient local grievance funding an organised lobby group can win big-time!
8. Robert Guyton 8

   6 December 2023 at 11:42 am

   Barbara Kuriger?

   Deputy Speaker?

   Gravitas?

   Wasn't there some dodgy behaviour from said Nat MP regarding her son's farming "difficulties"?

   Maureen Pugh? Assistant Speaker?

   Wonder what Simon thinks?
   • gsays 8.1

     6 December 2023 at 12:11 pm

     The speaker bar was already fairly low with Mallard in the seat, so these two don't have to do an extreme limbo to pass muster.
9. Mike the Lefty 9

   6 December 2023 at 12:13 pm

   Gerry Brownlee as Speaker!

   Our lowest expectations have been granted.

   Let's see how he rules if others put up countless silly trifling points of order that he specialized in.
10. SPC 10

    6 December 2023 at 2:55 pm

    In a classic Trump move the hydra headed coalition has appointed someone anti worker as Workplace Relations Minister, Brooke van Velden.

    None of that is surprising, and she parrots the neo-liberal lines that low wages are good for workers, as it means more secure jobs and it would be a risk to them if they got higher wages without improving productivity first.

    All presuming the ignorance of people about the growing share of profit to shareholders and declining share to workers that has been going on for around 4 decades.

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2023/12/act-s-brooke-van-velden-claims-fair-pay-agreements-will-hurt-low-wage-employees-lead-to-job-losses.html

    The more interesting thing is business advocates citing the ILO on their side against collective bargaining.

    https://businessnz.org.nz/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/220516-FPAs-put-on-list-of-worst-cases-by-ILO.pdf

    There is this savage criticism of the ILO and what happened to it.

    https://library.fes.de/pdf-files/iez/15592.pdf
11. Bearded Git 11

    6 December 2023 at 3:05 pm

    Hipkins just did a very good speech in parliament where he listed all of the many achievements over the last 6 years.

    It was so frustrating that these things did not come out in what was a very negative election campaign.
    • observer 11.1

      6 December 2023 at 3:14 pm

      The contrast with Luxon's vacuous speech in response is remarkable.

      Hipkins talked about dozens of policy areas, Luxon just wants to be a petty jerk.
      • observer 11.1.1

        6 December 2023 at 3:22 pm

        Somebody should do a side-by-side montage of Peters sitting next to Luxon, and Robertson sitting next to Hipkins. Or even Peters next to Ardern in 2017, beaming.

        Winston now is stony-faced.
        • observer 11.1.1.1

          6 December 2023 at 3:32 pm

          He's finished now, and barely talked about any specifics in the government's programme.

          Those 2 speeches were a clear illustration of what we now have. The leader of the opposition was followed by … um, the leader of the opposition to the last government!

          Luxon had to focus on Labour because that – and not much else – is what holds the coalition together.
          • ianmac 11.1.1.1.1

            6 December 2023 at 5:08 pm

            Luxon spent 14 min of his 28 min speech moaning about Grant and Chris then launched into his election speech without any actual grit. Empty vessel.

            Hope? Excitement? Competence?
12. SPC 12

    6 December 2023 at 3:27 pm

    In parliament CLuxon says the government intends to match investors to its projects to speed up the process. Quite apart from future costs to government (the nation state’s people) from this financing arrangement (it is the way international capital exploits the election cycle tactics of political parties, like a payday lender) there is the issue of corruption/being gamed by business.

    It will probably be concerning news for the Auditor-General.

    https://newsroom.co.nz/2023/11/30/auditor-general-seeks-greater-scrutiny-of-public-sector-integrity/
13. Rolling-on-Gravel 13

    6 December 2023 at 3:40 pm

    Bit of a Freudian slip there with that choice of the word: "own" – hmmmmmm, given that Nat, NZF & ACT is in the tank for landlords, business people and their ilk… one would think they would want to return to the "happy old days" of feudalism…

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2023/12/new-national-mp-james-meager-delivers-powerful-maiden-speech-telling-the-left-they-don-t-own-m-ori-the-poor-or-the-workers.html
    • SPC 13.1

      6 December 2023 at 3:59 pm

      Powerful. The person was raised in a state house, and at times while his mother was on sole parent support

      Meager insisted he and his siblings never went without and had “a great life”.

      He shifted to promoting themes of personal responsibility and limited government.

      “It’s not the state that saved my family, it was my Mum.

      and he now wants less state support for others.

      He cites a father of Ngāi Tahu ancestry who worked 40 years in the freezing works to demonstrate his working class background

      he was raised by his mother and rarely saw his father.

      Members opposite do not own Māori. Members opposite do not own the poor. Members opposite do not own the workers.

      He opposes Labour support for Maori, the poor and the worker. And he is gaslighting those National has it in for. Little chance of a state house, nor of owning their home and being subject to an anti-tenant and anti-worker regime (limited MW increases and no Fair Pay Agreements).

      https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/news/politics/left-doesn-t-own-poor-maori-national-mp-james-meager-s-revealing-and-personal-maiden-statement/
14. SPC 14

    6 December 2023 at 4:37 pm

    David Seymour in parliament said we would all be "wealthier" because of the hydra headed government.

    Given many have no assets apart from a car, nor are likely to, the term wealth is an interesting one. Only one thing is guaranteed those who have home ownership now, will be more wealthy as a result of their term in office. And the more wealth one has now the greater the gain.

    Wealth inequality will grow.

    But parliament allows the attempt at fraudulent misrepresentation by government.

    It can predicted that the numbers leaving for Oz will be the real story of the next three years.
15. Georgecom 15

    6 December 2023 at 5:48 pm

    Been a bit of a c lux ter fk for the coalition of chaos this past week. Winston being petulant and making luxon look week. Widespread condemnation of the tobacco law changes. Willis as much as admitting she cannot fund her tax cuts. Protests on the street on the day the new government is sworn in. Ridicule for its regressive approach to climate change.

    Given all of this you might have expected luxon to spend the first day in the house laying out some sort of vision. Instead I heard he spent his time sniping at Hipkins and his leadership. Chance for luxon to show some leadership but instead it was "labour this, labour that". The bus already off the tarmac and into the sand?
16. Chess Player 16

    6 December 2023 at 7:36 pm

    Welcome to the echo-chamber Terry.

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]
    

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