Open mike 07/01/2023

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, January 7th, 2023 - 79 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:


Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

79 comments on “Open mike 07/01/2023 ”

  • Comments are now closed

  1. SPC 1
    7 January 2023 at 8:20 am

    Migrant workers working in extreme heat barely last 10 years.

    One-third of transplant patients at a center near Kathmandu have been young men who worked abroad in extreme heat

    In recent years, scientists and groups including the International Labor Organization have increasingly warned about the deadly, yet often overlooked, link between exposure to extreme heat and chronic kidney disease.

    “These epidemics of chronic kidney disease that have surfaced … [are] just the beginning,” said Richard Johnson, a professor of medicine at the University of Colorado who is studying pockets of kidney disease globally. “As it gets hotter, we expect to see these diseases emerge elsewhere.”

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/01/06/climate-change-heat-kidney-disease/?

  2. joe90 2
    7 January 2023 at 11:00 am

    Won't be holding my breath waiting for an admission from Kaushal that he's overstating the threat of beggars and “feral families”.

    https://twitter.com/sfchronicle/status/1611067264974917652

    Dairy owners working in increased fear have declared a “retail crime emergency” and called for urgent support from law-makers including more legal protection to use self-defence, installation of facial recognition cameras and cracking down on beggars and “feral families”.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/dairy-crime-fury-if-the-government-is-not-able-to-provide-safety-they-have-no-right-to-govern/6KHRRVE2MRBAPKGAGTBQWH3QE4/

    • PsyclingLeft.Always 2.1
      7 January 2023 at 3:01 pm

      But the fine appeared only to provoke further errant behaviour by Mr Samuel.

      Over the following two months, he made explicit threats to two employees by phone, which were recorded and disclosed to the Labour Inspectorate.

      Believing one worker to be responsible for the initial complaint, Mr Samuel said he would arrange someone to cut off the man’s limbs and harm his family.

      A second man was told to "prepare for his parents’ funeral in Sri Lanka.".

      https://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/exploitation-migrants-revealed

      As time went on, Sanjay's conditions worsened. The business owners, he says, began to abuse him, accusing him of stealing, or of abusing customers and other staff. They fabricated events, letters and complaints, digging at his self-esteem, and eroding his mental health.

      Eventually, when it came to a head, Sanjay had a mental breakdown.

      https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/479673/man-denied-day-off-for-wedding-after-working-70-hours-a-week-for-five-years

      The two liquor barons who have mansions and underpaid staff

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/119699816/the-liquor-barons-who-have-mansions–and-underpaid-staff?rm=a

      IMO Dairies…will have the same exploitations going on. Does Mr Sunny follow those up? I'm sure….

    • tWiggle 2.2
      7 January 2023 at 9:19 pm

      Once again, my interpretation of these attacks is crime gangs using underage kids to soften up retail business owners for protection rackets. The actual stuff stolen is not the point, the social menace is. A point: many migrant dairy owners are from countries like India where rule of law and the courts are barely functional, and bribery and protection rackets are common. How to address this criminal intimidation is to target not only offenders, but also those who plan to benefit from their actions. There needs to be good education and solidarity at the local business community level, coordinated with police, to resist any 'protection' approaches.

      • Incognito 2.2.1
        7 January 2023 at 9:54 pm

        It is a lovely theory but you have zero evidence for protection rackets happening, do you? In other words, it is pure speculation on your behalf, isn’t it? You know that we like to see evidence for claims of opinion because they make debate informative and relevant.

      • joe90 2.2.2
        7 January 2023 at 10:04 pm

        I know nothing about older offenders but according to my SO who works at the pointy end of child protection; in our burg at least the majority of these incidents are social media driven copycat crimes. Offences are committed by young people who've had little previous contact with police/youth justice. They're egged on by media peers to record their offending and post the evidence, their social media is monitored and high clearance rates ensue. Apparently there's little evidence of any Fagin like organiser involvement in young people's offending.

        btw, anecdotally, the only dairy in a 5 Km radius of where I live has given up reporting thefts and stand-over tactics. The plods insistence on shutting the doors while they carry out their forensics costs a lot of money, and, I suspect, their presence may interfere with the day to day rorts.

        .

  4. millsy 4
    7 January 2023 at 11:23 am

    Dont know why the media is giving this reactionary thug a platform:

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/i-would-have-been-killed-why-farmer-bill-burr-ordered-his-son-to-chop-off-the-tip-of-a-teens-finger/WYZYNJR64VHHPA6Q6BWIWADRCM/

    The guy mutilated someone just because they broke into his house. I am picking if he had his way, they would have been strung up from lampposts.

    His support for Trump is pretty vocal as well, which means the guy probably condones police brutality, lynching and crackdowns on the LGBT communuty, all things that Trump has backed. He deserves no sympathy. If he had his way, NZ would be like 1950's Mississpi.

    The guy is full of hate. Plain and simple. Hate for brown people, hate for LGBT’s, hate for women, hate for due process. He has KKK written all over him.

    [1 year ban. Long pattern of behaviour of unsubstantiated claims of fact and slurs, that the mods are sick of, that you apologise for at the time but then keep doing. Explanation is here from one of the more recent moderations, including clear instructions that you need to provide pre-emptive links as evidence for claims. Which you appeared to agree to but you haven’t been doing. https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-11-11-2022/#comment-1920681 and https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-11-11-2022/#comment-1920633 – weka]

      • alwyn 4.1.1
        7 January 2023 at 1:31 pm

        You must be very well off yourself if you regard having to pay a $73,000 fine as being so trivial that you can ignore the law with impunity.

        If I was going to have to pay a fine of that magnitude I would feel that I had been whacked with the full force of the law.

        • joe90 4.1.1.1
          7 January 2023 at 1:41 pm

          Good thing I didn't say that he was able to ignore the law with impunity, eh.

          • alwyn 4.1.1.1.1
            7 January 2023 at 2:41 pm

            OK. You said that he was "above the law". I merely paraphrased it.

            You may therefore be willing to explain how, if he is "above the law" he was prosecuted and appears to be facing a large fine. If he was "above the law" he wouldn't have been charged at all, much less being subject to a large fine would he?

            So, in spite of this do you still think he is "above the law" or would you now agree that your statement is simply wrong?

            • Incognito 4.1.1.1.1.1
              7 January 2023 at 2:57 pm

              I’m getting tired of your pedantic nitpicking and your ‘paraphrasing’ that is essentially a euphemism for altering and twisting other people’s words to score trivial points. You don’t contribute to (robust) debate, you divert away from it.

              If you have a point to make, make it. If you want to indulge in frivolous trivialities then start your own blog.

            • joe90 4.1.1.1.1.2
              7 January 2023 at 3:01 pm

              He was informed of the restrictions yet he went ahead. Either the consequences of going ahead, a $73,000 fine and the costs of the remediation order, were a minor irritation or he thought he was above the law.

              He didn't become a wealthy man without knowing the value of a dollar so I'm picking he thumbed his nose.

              • alwyn …
                7 January 2023 at 4:10 pm

                I don't have any problem with you saying that he thought he was above the law. In fact I agree with the statement and I think he may have been expecting nothing to happen.

                What I didn't agree with was that you said, or at least implied, that he was above the law which seems to be saying that no action would be taken and that the Crown would just ignore what he has done.

                This seems to me to be saying that the law in New Zealand is not applied equally to everyone. That prospect scares me.

                Well thank God they haven't ignored it and I like to think they never will ignore such actions. If we ever get to the stage that the law is applied differently depending upon who you are, or who you know we are sunk.

            • Drowsy M. Kram 4.1.1.1.1.3
              7 January 2023 at 3:06 pm

              The Burrs are not "above the law", yet their actions evince their feeling that the law simply did not apply to them.

              Prior to purchasing the property the Burrs received advice from the Department of Conservation and the regional council as to the significance of the wetland and restrictions on what activity can occur that may impact on the wetland.

              Despite this instruction the Burrs immediately started unlawful works.
              …
              Judge Harland described the offending as “energetic” stating that “Mr Burr was moving forward at a very fast pace and the impression I gained was that he was not stopping for anyone”.

              Maybe the Burrs were aiming for a fait accompli drainage, and a 'no use crying over spilt milk' defence – drain the swamp!

    • Nic the NZer 4.2
      7 January 2023 at 11:49 am

      Millsy woulda ordered his son to put a brew on. Then he would have sent the lad on his way with a very stern warning not to do it again.

      • joe90 4.2.1
        7 January 2023 at 12:41 pm

        The son's a recent provincial back rower who weighed in at >95Kgs. He and his father weren't happy with just subduing an overweight teenager. They mutilated him to satisfy their own, racist lust for revenge.

      • weka 4.2.2
        7 January 2023 at 12:46 pm

        Two adult men had the teen on the ground with a rifle pointed at him. All they had to do was wait for the police to arrive.

        • Belladonna 4.2.2.1
          7 January 2023 at 1:00 pm

          Easy to say. He was reportedly (and we only have the reports to go on) – armed with a large knife, and continually getting up to try to attack them.
          They also didn't know if there were other people outside (from the original article – he says he assumed that the guy and his girlfriend had been dropped off – and there were others outside).
          Nor did they know how long the police would take to get there (a real concern in rural communities).

          Do I think it could have been handled better? Sure I do. In many ways, including beginning a lot further back on the criminal trajectory. I also think it could, very easily, have resulted in the teen being dead, or seriously crippled.

          • weka 4.2.2.1.1
            7 January 2023 at 1:11 pm

            definitely a dangerous situation. How does cutting off the tip of the teens finger make that better?

            • Cricklewood 4.2.2.1.1.1
              7 January 2023 at 1:47 pm

              It doesn't, but given it was tue third or fourth time and he'd been clattered around the head with a wine bottle at 1 30 am its hardly suprising he lost the plot at went to far.

              I'd be really interested to know why he was been targeted by the teen and why he was able to continuously return.

              Eitherway the system failed the both of them badly ending in a pretty horrific situation.

              • joe90 …
                7 January 2023 at 1:55 pm

                but given it was tue third or fourth time and he'd been clattered around the head with a wine bottle at 1 30 am

                Cite?

                • weka …
                  7 January 2023 at 2:04 pm

                  It was the fourth time the teen, who he knew, had broken into his home; the previous time was just a week earlier.

                  …

                  The first Burr knew about it was at 1.45am when, in a deep sleep, he was hit over the head with a wine bottle.

                  from the link in millsy's original comment.

                  • joe90 …
                    7 January 2023 at 2:19 pm

                    Deeply felt racial animosities are all too common in that part of the country but we only have the violent thug's word that this was the fourth time the teen, who he knew, had broken into his home.

                    Waiting for Crinkle to justify the assertion that this was the third or fourth time he'd been clattered around the head with a wine bottle.

                    • weka …
                      7 January 2023 at 2:36 pm

                      Crickle didn't say that, they said,

                      it was tue third or fourth time

                      and he'd been clattered around the head with a wine bottle at 1 30 am

                      My emphasis.

                      I assumed that the reporter has some familiarity with evidence from the court case, and wasn't just letting him say what he wanted.

                    • joe90 …
                      7 January 2023 at 2:45 pm

                      and

                      Fair enough. Still disgusted by attempts to justify the actions men who beat, subdued, and used a knife to mutilate a disabled teen with, according family, the intellectual capacities of a child.

                    • Cricklewood []
                      7 January 2023 at 3:58 pm

                      I'm not justifying anything, just saying the reaction is unsurprising. It's possible we see something similar happen if one of the kids holding up dairies gets collared.

                      I do think there's alot about this particular case that we don't know, perhaps due to suppression orders. The repeated targeting seems weird and there were attempts at to sort things out. Like I say the system failed both of them.

                    • Muttonbird …
                      7 January 2023 at 4:03 pm

                      @ Cricklewood. No system has failed William Burr.

                    • Cricklewood []
                      7 January 2023 at 4:49 pm

                      I disagree, to have the same offender in your home multiple times despite restorative justice etc is a failure.

                      Burr is an odious individual but nobody deserves been burgled robbed or threatened especially in their own home.

              • weka …
                7 January 2023 at 2:09 pm

                yeah, there's a lot about that whole story that's not clear.

                It's not hard to imagine that cutting the finger tip happened from escalation and trying to stop the kid with the knife from getting up off the floor. But it's also not hard to imagine that the solutions coming into Burr and his son's head arose from their values and lives. Other people would have reacted differently.

    • weka 4.3
      7 January 2023 at 12:20 pm

      mod note

      • joe90 4.3.1
        7 January 2023 at 12:30 pm

        Prick told an ambulance driver that they were “too PC” and were “dealing with black people”. But millsy's overstating things.

        /

        • weka 4.3.1.1
          7 January 2023 at 12:44 pm

          It's milly's commenting style and behaviour that is the problem. I assumed there was some truth in what he was saying, but the inflammatory spray style runs counter to TS's requirement of evidence based robust debate. And as you say, the comments are misleading. There's also the problem of defamation and what happens when one of milly's comments puts the site owners at risk.

          If millsy had provided the link you did, they wouldn't have gotten banned. They've been told so many times, sucked up so much moderator time, and we're sick of it. Also, election year, so we're tightening up.

        • Belladonna 4.3.1.2
          7 January 2023 at 12:52 pm

          From your link

          He denies a claim made in court by an ambulance officer that he told them they were “too PC” and were “dealing with black people”.

    • Muttonbird 4.4
      7 January 2023 at 4:35 pm

      I stand with you, millsy.

      It is obvious Burr is MAGA (it's in the link you took the time to provide) and, as you say, therefore it's probable he condones aggressive policing, vigilantism, and crackdowns on vulnerable and minority communities.

      The other link provided by joe90 @ 4.3.1 details more of Burr's character, where he likens the young Māori offender to a dog:

      “He’s still [his mother’s] kid. He just went off the rails. If you have a dog, and you don’t train it and no discipline – they need education and discipline.

      So, probably racist too, which was your other reasoned assertion.

      Another link from joe90 @ 4.1 describes Burr's attitude to environmental laws and the environment itself. It's pretty clear what the man is like when you build a picture from his own words and actions, ie, not someone who progressives would defend.

      One thing I'd like to say about millsy's extremely heavy ban is that for some commenters TS is a means to document and release frustrations. One commenter who does this a lot is Swordfish in his ongoing battle with the imaginary managerial middle class.

      I do it myself, not necessarily seeking feedback, just wanting to get down on paper as it were what I'm thinking, with links, for possible reference later. My point is, some commenters rely on TS for the ability it provides to 'get things down on paper' as described, and this helps with their mental health.

      Also, the requirement for commenters to be thorough with expanding on claims and providing links for each claim is discriminatory to those who are time and technology poor.

      Such a long ban (particularly for highlighting the behaviour of a horrible individual) doesn't seem to factor much of that in at all.

      Frustrated moderator decisions do affect frustrated real people…

  5. Peter 5
    7 January 2023 at 2:15 pm

    Guns and the right to bear arms is always a hot US topic. A six year old shot a teacher in a classroom.

    I understand all the stuff about preventing crazed people having guns, them taking guns into schools and procedures in the event of terrible incidents happening.

    The need to check 5 and 6 year olds to see if they're carrying?

    It's another context for all the talk in the country just a year after there was insurrection at the country's Capitol. And at a time so many in the debate for House Speaker are talking about the US being the greatest country in the world.

    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/shooting-virginia-elementary-school-leaves-1-adult-injured-rcna64695

    "Data also suggests that young people disproportionately commit gun homicides. For example, 18-20-year olds comprise just 4% of the US population, but account for 17% of known homicide offenders."

    https://giffords.org/lawcenter/gun-laws/policy-areas/who-can-have-a-gun/minimum-age/

  7. tsmithfield 7
    7 January 2023 at 3:02 pm

    It looks like the West is getting serious in the arms it is supplying Ukraine.

    The US is supplying 50 Bradley fighting vehicles amongst other things.

    France is sending AMX-10 RC light tanks.

    Germany is sending Mauder infantry fighting vehicles.

    Plus, it looks like countries in Europe are going to send Leopard 2 tanks.

    Most of this stuff is a lot better than the Soviet era stuff the Russians are using atm.

    So, it looks like Ukraine is going to get everything it needs to push the Russians out of Ukraine. This is important, even from a negotiating perspective. It is vital that Russia sees that the west is not going to back down in its support for Ukraine. So, in that way Russia will see that continued aggression on its part is futile.

    • weston 7.2
      7 January 2023 at 4:02 pm

      If it gets hit by Russian artillery it'll blow up just the same tsmithfield

      • tsmithfield 7.2.1
        7 January 2023 at 4:20 pm

        That is a big "if". The Ukrainians tend to be a bit smarter than the Russians who house their soldiers next to ammunition dumps which doesn't lead to great outcomes for the soldiers when their base is targeted by Ukrainian artillery, as happened in Makiivka the other day.

        Even the Russians now acknowledge that 89 soldiers were killed in the attack, which means the number is much more likely to be in the hundreds as claimed by the Ukrainians and many other sources.

        Aftermath of the attack here:

        https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/cellphone-use-by-russian-soldiers-allowed-ukraine-to-target-troops-russian-military-says

      • Scud 7.2.2
        7 January 2023 at 5:13 pm

        Given the way Tsar Poot's Army has handle it's fabled "Red God" Zhukov & Co would be rolling in their graves atm.

        As for it's Combined Arms Tactics/ Doctrine, you wouldn't be getting a Cuppa Tea & Biscuit interview with Chief Instructor & RSM at the School of Armour, Infantry or at Staff College!

        But a RTU or worst a notice to show cause why we shouldn't boot you out on your ass.

        Oh sorry to nit prick, the AMX 10 isn't a Light Tank, it's Wheel Tank Destroyer or Heavy Armoured Car armed with a 105mm gun.

        The AMX 10 would a good vehicle to have alongside the Aussie Bushies for those deep penetration attacks/ offensives after the Heavy Brigades ie Tanks & Infantry Fighting Vehicles have broken through the Russian Defensive Belt in coming spring after General Mud has passed or this winter which is starting to look very unlikely now.

        • tsmithfield 7.2.2.1
          7 January 2023 at 6:55 pm

          Yeah, thanks for that. I realise the term "tank" is a fairly loose description.

          They should be handy for the Ukrainians though. I think they can be transported by air, and I understand the older version is amphibious, which could be handy for the Ukrainians.

          • joe90 7.2.2.1.1
            7 January 2023 at 7:08 pm

            Leopard 2's will be welcomed. Designed specifically to operate on the open steppe against Warsaw Pact armour during a European winter.

            • Scud 7.2.2.1.1.1
              7 January 2023 at 8:26 pm

              Any MBT would be welcome for the Ukrainian Armoured Corp, heck even the old upgraded IDF Cents, T55's & T62's would be a bit of handful for Poot's Army given the Ukrainian Army's Combined Arms Tactics/ Doctrine has been exceptional.

              Yes, it's been rough for the Ukrainian Armed Forces at start of the Russian Invasion & a few things didn't go to plan especially in the Sth Command Region. But they didn't panic & stayed to their Strategic Battle plan as they knew this day would come.

              Leopard 2's would be a game changer on the battlefield especially at a tactical level, also of note Jordan is retiring it's Challenger 1's MBT which is also a beast & would be interesting if a 3rd or the Poms suddenly brought them. It may not have the mobility ie speed on the battlefield, but packs a punch with its firepower & protection with it Cobham Armour.

          • Scud 7.2.2.1.2
            7 January 2023 at 7:10 pm

            The AMX 10 is a good wagon for mobile operations & those QRF/RRF UN Missions which the French used them for during the 80's & 90's.

            They were a vast improvement over the AML 90's from the 1960's- 70's which were a primped up French version of the British Ferret.

  8. Joe900 8
    7 January 2023 at 5:11 pm

    Pride, or they're culling the herd.

    China has rebuffed repeated U.S. offers to share advanced vaccines as Beijing battles a fast-spreading wave of COVID-19, a rejection that’s led to growing frustration among American officials concerned about a resurgence of the pandemic.

    https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2023/01/07/asia-pacific/china-covid-vaccines-us/

    • Graeme 9.1
      7 January 2023 at 9:25 pm

      I thought that was well written and quite fair in a neutral sort of way. Whatever happens we will end up with with an amalgamated 3 Waters service model. The current local authority model is a failure in many cases, Haldon's 'orphans', and really can't be fixed.

      About the only bit that can change is how independent of councillor control, and how universal, the new model is. Some councils have done very well, New Plymouth is an example, but they are lucky to have a strong growing economy and helpful topography along with good leadership. Queenstown Lakes is similar, we can do whatever is required thanks to a vibrant development community that willingly* hand over vast sums in development contributions to realise their dreams.

      Down the road is Gore. They have a combined sewage / stormwater system, a shrinking economy along with a similarly shrinking and aging population. Successive councils have kicked the can down the road, funding civic amenities but ignoring the pipes. It's going to be a huge undertaking fixing this and well beyond the resources of the town. Love to see how National and ACT will deal with this.

      Most likely outcome if National are government in 2024 will be a "review" which will change the name of it all, maybe create a couple more entities so it feels more local, and Mana Whenua involvement is up to the shareholding Councils to decide. The regions that choose to develop strong relationships with Mana Whenua will get things done, this that don't might find it a bit harder.

      ACT have been wanting to return GST to councils to reduce rates fund infrastructure for a while. Reality will be more roads, councillors get elected by promising things that constituents can see and touch, not shit that's buried in the ground and they have to dig up the roads to put there.

      • Muttonbird 9.1.1
        7 January 2023 at 9:35 pm

        I'd love to leave the orphans behind because they, in the thrall of the farming lobby, are so resistant to any form of help.

        Let them drink cow piss day and night.

        • Graeme 9.1.1.1
          8 January 2023 at 9:10 am

          That's the problem National will have in trying to dismantle 3 Waters. The 'orphans' are the bluest of the blue. National will be faced with either taking the Gores out the back and shooting it, or having to justify pouring billions into propping up dying towns, which will go down really well with ACT.

          I really don't think National have thought through how they are going to sell this to their constituents or support parties. The few Nat MPs that can think more than one move ahead are probably hoping like hell they either don't win this year, or come up with a viable policy PDQ.

          I'm not sure the orphans are resistant to help or change, it's just that the problem has been so large and has just been getting larger for 100 years. They should have been moving to separated services in 1930, but couldn't afford it then and it's just got harder with time. They aren't alone, Auckland has only just separated the last of it's combined services.

          In Gore's case fixing involves replacing 70% of the towns sewer and stormwater network, and then rehabilitating the street. Starting again on a new site is probably quicker and cheaper.

    • joe90 10.1
      7 January 2023 at 10:48 pm

      Martin Bradbury has an interesting take on the Standard.

      The pompous arse has a new pejorative?

    • UncookedSelachimorpha 10.2
      8 January 2023 at 12:41 am

      His take isn't far from mine. Got to avoid the disaster of a NAct government (and get another Green / Labour one instead) – but Labour has done very little to significantly address the real problems of inequality, poverty, worker's rights and conditions in NZ. And certainly haven’t been transformative in any way, to my mind.

  11. SPC 11
    8 January 2023 at 2:20 am

    Many forecasts were made as to the arrival of winter and its impact on the Russian invasion of Ukraine and wider Europe because of an energy crisis.

    https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=general+winter+ukraine

    What no one expected was a heat wave in winter. With temperatures of 19 degrees, rather an 1 degree, people were out jogging wearing a teeshirt rather than going skiing.

    Blame it on a continuance of La Nina (a rare third year).

    https://www.npr.org/2023/01/05/1147116000/la-nina-climate-change-california-bomb-cyclone-winter-heat-wave

    But it is coming to an end. Signs are that it is going neutral for a turn to El Nino later this year.

The server will be getting hardware changes this evening starting at 10pm NZDT.
The site will be off line for some hours.