Open mike 08/08/2012

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, August 8th, 2012 - 125 comments
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Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the link to Policy in the banner).

Step right up to the mike…

125 comments on “Open mike 08/08/2012 ”

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  1. Jenny 1
    8 August 2012 at 6:15 am

    “Flipping” the revolution.

    Supplied anonymously by someone who aptly calls themselves Colonial Viper.

    http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-06082012/comment-page-1/#comment-503380

    Struggling to keep a straight face Gayane Chichakyan for ‘Russia Today’ Portentiously intones “Al Qaida (pause) has infiltrated”

    Everyone has to see this ridiculous effort from ‘Russia Today’ to believe it.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GhF9ib8bIY&feature=g-u-u

    It starts with a small intro with some serious news. Before segueing to Washington DC, for an incredible case of interviewing your typewriter type commentary. Aided with some disjointed editing of a US senate hearing on Syria. Interrupted by clumsily cutting away to some “experts on terrorism”. And more on the streets (of Washington) commentary.

    Adding to the whole air of unreality of this piece, is the body language of the front person, which seems to suggest that she is uncomfortable reading her ridiculous script.

    What this video actually reveals, is that the Russian and American ‘Big Powers’ have been caught completely flat footed by the revolution in Syria.

    What the senate hearing seems to be discussing, (though it is hard to tell due to the crap editing), is the ‘possibility’ of intervening.

    The Russian Today announcer indignantly cries “America has already intervened”.

    Russia Today claims that both Al Qaida and the US are currently working together in Syria.

    “Large number of Al Qaida linked fighters are reportedly bolstering the opposition’s ranks and these groups are being supported by the US”, Russia Today.

    (Despite being at each other’s throats everywhere else.) We are being asked to believe by Russia Today that America and Al Qaida are working together in Syria.

    This is highly unlikely while the US is spending vast amounts of money and thousands of lives (including New Zealand lives) fighting Al Qaida in Afghanistan.

    What is really happening here is that the outside Russian and American powers, inexplicably finding themselves on the sidelines, are both trying to talk up an Al Qaida presence as an excuse to intervene.

    Make no mistake, an intervention in Syria, by either the Russians, or the US will be with the purpose of strangling this genuine people’s revolt.

    • Bored 1.1
      8 August 2012 at 6:41 am

      FFS Jenny, having another dig at CV. Give it a miss, it detracts from what is a valid message, Im bored by the personalised bitching..

      • Jenny 1.1.1
        8 August 2012 at 7:24 am

        I am glad that you agree I have a valid message.

        I am annoyed at Colonial Viper because though he dresses it up in leftist rhetoric, his deeper message is misanthropic, continually negative, and deeply conservative, and most of all, defeatist.

        • Bored 1.1.1.1
          8 August 2012 at 7:35 am

          There are a lot of us here who cross your barriers. Rather than doing pre-emptive strikes please respond to specifics when they happen, otherwise it looks dreadfully like that other equally obnoxious activity, stalking.

      • bad12 1.1.2
        8 August 2012 at 9:45 am

        Same, your message is valid, but your intro having a dig at CV just detracts from that valid message,

        You run the risk of making the issue one of egotistical camps, as in those who support you and those who support CV, thus losing all perspective and, more importantly blinding yourself to being able to work out the truth of what the conflict has become…

      • Draco T Bastard 1.1.3
        8 August 2012 at 11:19 am

        I’m actually at the point where I now read more of PG’s comments than Jenny’s.

        • bad12 1.1.3.1
          8 August 2012 at 11:34 am

          Larffs, geez that’s gotta be painful…

        • Jenny 1.1.3.2
          8 August 2012 at 6:54 pm

          It is a fact that Bashar Assad like his father before him is a mass murderer.

          It is a fact that Bashar Assad regime uses torture*.

          It is a fact that Colonial Viper supports this regime.

          I must be getting old. There used to be a time when those who supported torturers and mass murders were not welcome in polite society. (Especially Left polite society).

          *A fact so well known that Syria is one of overseas territories used by the CIA for rendition, (the practice of exporting victims to be tortured to territories where torture is allowed.)

          Inshallah the Americans won’t have this option for much longer.

          • Draco T Bastard 1.1.3.2.1
            8 August 2012 at 8:37 pm

            It is a fact that Colonial Viper supports this regime.

            That’s not a fact – just your supposition. It is possible to neither support the present Syrian dictatorship nor the rebels.

            • Jenny 1.1.3.2.1.1
              8 August 2012 at 11:03 pm

              What do you make of this then?

              Colonial Viper
              21 July 2012 at 11:11 pm

              Feel free to ignore the active destabilisation of a peaceful and culturally advanced country to get to this point, however.

              As for a choice between Assad and the rebels…we know what we’re going to get with Assad. What are we going to get with the rebels? Sharia law and a roll back of womens rights to the norm of every other arab country?

              In Aleppo in an interview with a rebel soldier, a government tank shell went off near New Zealand journalist Anita McNaught in the building next door.

              http://kiaoragaza.wordpress.com/2012/07/30/as-battle-for-aleppo-rages-rebels-seize-the-countryside/

              Colonial Viper in an unprincipled attack on the integrity of McNaught, suggested that McNaught had rigged the shell to explode in the middle of the interview.

              place a shell 200m away and when you need it, set it off with a small charge.

              Colonial Viper

              http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-06082012/comment-page-1/#c

              • Colonial Viper …
                8 August 2012 at 11:10 pm

                Colonial Viper in an unprincipled attack on the integrity of McNaught, suggested that McNaught had rigged the shell to explode in the middle of the interview.

                You’re a fucking unprincipled liar

                • Jenny …
                  9 August 2012 at 4:49 am

                  Colonial Viper
                  8 August 2012 at 11:10 pm

                  Colonial Viper in an unprincipled attack on the integrity of McNaught, suggested that McNaught had rigged the shell to explode in the middle of the interview.

                  You’re a fucking unprincipled liar

                  Was that not the link to the thread where you made your comment, along with your other comments suggesting that Anita McNaught had sold out her journalistic integrity to her employers?

                  Are you suggesting that someone else placed this comment under your pseudonym?

                  If you can prove this, then I will apologise.

                  Maybe Lynn Prentice may want to come in here, he knows who posts what.

                  • lprent …
                    9 August 2012 at 8:21 am

                    As far as I read the rather heated conversations, CV was arguing that it was common that civil wars against terrible regimes wound up with worse regime afterwards. Hard to disagree bearing in mind some of the examples from the history of the 20th.

                    He also commented that it was easy to fake stuff for journos. He didn’t say that was McNaught or Al jazerra which is what you are asserting. As I read it he was just offering alternates to it being the Syrian army dropping shells. It could have as easily been local insurrectionists with plastique. The only thing that is hard to fake with shells is the distinctive incoming noise which probably too high pitched for camera mikes.

                    Any history of insurrection or war is replete with examples of groups mugging it up for the journos. They have a vested interest in making news look good for them and most conflicts have at least a few examples of it.

                    I rather suspect that CV is mostly saying that skepticism is a good attribute to cultivate when viewing any conflict.

              • Draco T Bastard …
                8 August 2012 at 11:28 pm

                Oh noes, he’s questioning the motives of the rebels, Oh woe is us!!!1

                /sarc

                As he pointed out further down:

                Feel free to talk about liberal naievete in matters of revolution as long as you remember how the likes of Marcos, the Shah of Iran, Saddam Hussein, Pinochet, etc. stayed in power so long.

                In all of those cases the government was replaced by revolution supported by other governments (most notably, the US) and the result was far worse than what had been there before. Considering the lies that the US has promulgated about their actions in the ME over the last few decades it seems reasonable to be sceptical of their motives now and history shows us that we should question what the result will be with them meddling in the rebellion.

                And questioning the rebels doesn’t imply support of the current regime. Effectively a position of Yes, the current regime needs to go but the result of the rebellion could actually be worse. With history being on the side of it being worse.

          • bad12 1.1.3.2.2
            8 August 2012 at 9:07 pm

            Link us all to that bit won’t you, where the CIA was sending people to Syria to be tortured…

  2. BillODrees 2
    8 August 2012 at 6:29 am

    A deep breath.

    Let us not pull the house down on top of ourselves. A few twits are already doing that……

    A small group of ABCs had a nihilist moment or three and briefed an impressionable jurno.

    The target is Key and his gang. The motivation is the poorly paid hard workers, the children, the old and infirm, the many who need a strong and progressive Labour Party. 

    This is the chance for Shearer to show his mettle.  It is timely, given the review and the forthcoming conference.  Every cloud has a silver lining. 

    • Pete George 2.1
      8 August 2012 at 6:59 am

      “Every cloud has a silver lining. ”

      Only if the opportunity to show his mettle is taken, and there is significant and visible change as a result.

    • Dr Terry 2.2
      8 August 2012 at 10:53 am

      Are you perhaps confusing mettle for jelly?

      • BillODrees 2.2.1
        8 August 2012 at 5:24 pm

        Meow! 

        He is our leader, even if we are unhappy with the selection process.   Helen, Mike Smith, Mike Williams and others could have proposed a new leadership process and didn’t.  That is not Shearer’s fault. 

        I’ve no doubt that he is shocked and angry with the  idiots who instigated and acted in this play with Garner and others.  It was so crass, so stupid, it is almost unbelievable. 

        Shearer would never have wished for major bush-fire like this.  With his background he knows the importance of putting out bush-fires quickly. Give him time.  

         

  3. Jenny 3
    8 August 2012 at 6:51 am

    Iranian elite commandos captured by Syrian rebels in Damascus? A Turkish general captured by Assad’s forces in Aleppo? True or false? It doesn’t actually matter all that much. Even if there were Iranian killers in Syria, the Assad regime is still an indigenous dictatorship. Even if there was a Turkish general in Aleppo, the Syrian democracy movement and its armed wing are still an indigenous uprising.

    Grant Morgan editor Kiaoragaza.net

    http://www.facebook.com/l/aAQGQ8Hz8AQGWk1qg-cnaC_5vV8NLJGoO7mIZzGkcSXUVbQ/kiaoragaza.wordpress.com/2012/08/07/syria-an-indigenous-uprising-shakes-an-indigenous-dictator/

    • Pascal's bookie 3.1
      8 August 2012 at 7:05 am

      “True or false? It doesn’t actually matter all that much”

      Says it all really. That’s some news outfit.

      • Jenny 3.1.1
        8 August 2012 at 7:45 am

        Your criticism is a little out of context here PB.

        Morgan is talking about the accusations that because Al Qaida, or Turkish generals, or Russian advisers, or CIA agents are (possibly), all in Syria, then it can’t possibly be a genuine people’s revolt.

        Morgan is saying that whether these accusations are true or not, it is still a popular revolt and we should support it.

        I notice that Morgan does mention the possibility, that if this meddling continues or even erupts into open military intervention that, that this could change. Nothing is guaranteed in this life in any human endeavor.

        And these foreign forces do have huge military power backed up by influential propaganda resources.

        Yet for all this, we should support the people of Syria in their valiant effort to rid themselves of Tyranny. It’s the decent thing to do.

        • Pascal's bookie 3.1.1.1
          8 August 2012 at 8:09 am

          Not at all Jenny.

          The truth is always important. That’s how you actually build a context.

          People who say that the truth doesn’t really matter, are eliminating contextual elements.

          And what exactly do you mean by support the people of Syria in their effort. Mouth pablum on the internet? Start flame wars? How does this help?

          What actual things are you suggesting be done?

          • chris73 3.1.1.1.1
            8 August 2012 at 8:41 am

            Be careful or you’ll start another vendetta…

          • Carol 3.1.1.1.2
            8 August 2012 at 9:02 am

            Good questions, PB. Also, how do we separate the legitimate grassroots revolution/aries from all the other players trying to get in on the act in order to benefit their own interests.

            I would love to see Assad’s regime removed and replaced with something more humane and democratic. But with the big powers all trying to get in on the act, isn’t there a risk of another US/Western puppet being installed – something that worked so well in places like Iraq in the past?

            • Vicky32 3.1.1.1.2.1
              8 August 2012 at 6:04 pm

              But with the big powers all trying to get in on the act, isn’t there a risk of another US/Western puppet being installed – something that worked so well in places like Iraq in the past?
               

              That is 100% likely, sadly. 🙁

          • Bored 3.1.1.1.3
            8 August 2012 at 10:18 am

            PB, I like the term contextual elements. Seems to me when we try and straight-jacket issues into paradigms of democracy, decency, freedom, sovereignty etc etc we can easily miss out on context.

            Syria is a classic for historic and geographic context. For better or worse they sit on one of the crossroads of the world: because of this their interests have for 000s of years often been at odds with those of others. We in NZ represent a little island state at the ends of the earth, our geo-political context is so very different. We don’t sit next to a country occupied by a superpower, or next to a rogue state supported by a superpower, nor in a region where an ex-superpower is testing the incumbent super powers over-reach. We don’t have oil or pipelines from oil fields. We don’t have any historic record as a battleground between the people and ideas of the east and west.

            With regard to Syria and who is doing what to whom and why I could come up with a hundred versions, all at odds. Could be Jenny is right and wrong concurrently, and CV the same. Context please.

            • bad12 3.1.1.1.3.1
              8 August 2012 at 10:44 am

              Give it 10 years and we will all likely learn that after 9/11 the CIA was finally let loose from it’s legislative chains,

              Whereupon said organization took it’s ooodles of cash and organizational capabilities into the desert sands and viola we have the Arab Spring,

              Time will obviously tell how close to the truth that little assertion is, but, i liken US foreign policy to a Mafia protection racket,

              The US in order to protect it’s client States in the Gulf can either engage in messy expensive invasions after the fact of some abhorrent behavior inflicted upon the client by another State, or, the US can engage in fermenting internal revolution in such States in the region that are or could become a threat to the US clients…

          • Jenny 3.1.1.1.4
            8 August 2012 at 9:28 pm

            Things to be done.

            Firstly. We need to confront and challenge the hysteria being created around Al Qaida involvement in Syria, which is being deliberately whipped up to shape public opinion into accepting Western foreign intervention in Syria.

            Second. Anyone with the ear of any Green Party MP needs to let them know that any support for intervention by the US, the UN or any other outside powers will be counterproductive. To this end the Greens should be lobbied to withdraw any and all calls from them in support of foreign intervention.

            Third. Prepare at the first sign of either Russion or US led UN armed intervention to rally outside the embassies of the invading countries.

            Fourth. Prepare to help rally as many friends and colleagues as possible to join with others to protest outside the the electoral office of any MP whether National or Green who suggests that New Zealand should send a contingent to take part in any such military intervention.

            And lastly habibi. Think for yourself, forget the propagandists, listen to the voice of the Arab and Syrian People. Learn about the Arab Spring.

            • Colonial Viper 3.1.1.1.4.1
              8 August 2012 at 11:49 pm

              🙄

              the Syrian people and their country are being crushed under a wave of foreign fighters and foreign funded geo-political interests.

            • Pascal's bookie 3.1.1.1.4.2
              9 August 2012 at 9:38 am

              So essentially you are saying that we, as a nation, should do nothing. As individuals, we should campaign against doing anything, and shout down anyone who points out that the rebels are being assisted by some pretty unsavoury types.

        • Colonial Viper 3.1.1.2
          8 August 2012 at 9:20 am

          It’s still a popular revolt?

          Even though many foreign fighters and jihadists are the ones doing the fighting and killing of Syrian citizens, and even though every surrounding country is trying to fuel and influence outcomes for themselves? Particularly US allied countries who see this as a way to weaken and isolate Iran further.

          Alawites and Shia Syrian citizens all through Syria fear being targetted now by the rebels. Funny how foreign funded fighters can do that against local citizens and you still say that its a popular revolt.

          • Vicky32 3.1.1.2.1
            8 August 2012 at 6:10 pm

            Alawites and Shia Syrian citizens all through Syria fear being targetted now by the rebels. Funny how foreign funded fighters can do that against local citizens and you still say that its a popular revolt.

            ABSOLUTELY TRUE! Seconded thirded and quoted for truth!

            • Dem Young Sconies 3.1.1.2.1.1
              8 August 2012 at 8:48 pm

              I’ll forth that proposition.

              If the NATO / Saudi backed insurgents are successful there will be a massacre of Alawites, and every other religious minority in Syria. If they fail then the Sunni majority are in the firing line. This is now a stalemate. Neither side will yield for fear of the consequences. I certainly wouldn’t feel comfortable in the knowledge that these supposed “Free Syrian Army” guys were coming my way.

  4. Carol 4
    8 August 2012 at 8:59 am

    Opposite sides of the same coin?

    Is Shearer on the right track here? If so how does he work to counter these Auckland trends?

    It certainly looks like provincial NZ is losing out to the cities, and nothing is being done by the present government to develop the positive sides of rural living.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10825364

    Mr Shearer will speak in Nelson today where he is expected to accuse National of neglecting the well-being of provincial New Zealand and stripping regional road funding to pay for projects such as Auckland’s motorways, National’s “roads of significance”.

    Labour will also issue a series of statements setting out a range of bad news stories for each province since National came into Government in 2008 – including companies where there were big job losses, dodgy roads and the numbers from each region who had gone to Australia.

    But is the current dynamic growth of Auckland inevitable, sustainable, and, in the long-term good for the whole of NZ?

    Certainly the Herald’s report on the Household Labour Force Survey’s findings is giving the city a young, sexy, innovative gloss: a city abundant in opportunities and good pay for those that want it.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10825358

    Auckland’s working population is younger, more highly educated and better paid compared with the rest of the country, a review of employment in the city has found.

    Or are these advantages really just minimal in a context that is not great for the majority of workers overall? The employment/unemployment/wages stats don’t exactly indicate boom-times for Kiwis in general.

    Maybe it would be better for workers overall, if necessary and innovative business were spread more evenly around the country? This would take the pressure of the transport systems and available accommodation in cities like Auckland, and make sustainable living, close to the countryside a possibility for more Kiwis.

    • Colonial Viper 4.1
      8 August 2012 at 10:30 am

      yeah Aucklanders are like 10% better paid facing 60% higher housing and transport costs, can someone get the Herald to grow a brain please.

    • Colonial Viper 4.2
      8 August 2012 at 11:27 am

      It certainly looks like provincial NZ is losing out to the cities, and nothing is being done by the present government to develop the positive sides of rural living.

      Provincial NZ is not particularly interested in what Labour has to say; in general it doesn’t believe that Labour holds an understanding of or attitude helpful towards smaller towns and rural areas.

      • bad12 4.2.1
        8 August 2012 at 11:36 am

        And, Dave Shearer going there and accentuating the negatives while not laying out a Labour Government blue-print to bring about the positives aint about to have them all waving red rosettes in the streets…

    • Draco T Bastard 4.3
      8 August 2012 at 11:39 am

      But is the current dynamic growth of Auckland inevitable, sustainable, and, in the long-term good for the whole of NZ?

      No it’s not. What we need to be doing is looking at ways to encourage people to move out of Auckland into other areas so that we can downsize Auckland. This probably means an increase in government funded research and manufacture complexes around the country which encourages cooperative competition.

      • prism 4.3.1
        8 August 2012 at 12:00 pm

        DTB 4.3
        Sounds a good idea. Are you clever enough to persuade someone in power to do this?? Or will it be another one of those good ideas that get directed down a dark alley and coshed?

        • Draco T Bastard 4.3.1.1
          8 August 2012 at 5:30 pm

          Are you clever enough to persuade someone in power to do this?

          Possibly. I’m still getting my head around the idea.

          • Colonial Viper 4.3.1.1.1
            8 August 2012 at 11:53 pm

            When the opportunity and the movement comes, you’ll recognise it. Just for the sake of irony, we’ll probably run our first conference in Auckland, in SkyCity.

        • mike e 4.3.1.2
          8 August 2012 at 11:47 pm

          not enough votes in that idea.
          nact canned regional development after it created a lot of jobs

  5. chris73 5
    8 August 2012 at 9:28 am

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/7435955/Dump-gay-marriage-bill-Labour-MP

    I’ll say it again…teamwork people, it’ll get you into power or it’ll keep you out of power

  6. bad12 6
    8 August 2012 at 9:57 am

    Welcome to New Zild, the Hungarian Consul General Klara Szentirmay has come to the conclusion that we all reached long ago about Slippery the Prime Minister,

    She called Slippery’s remarks about Hungarian troops serving in Afghanistan unhelpful and snide after our Prime Minister flushed like a common toilet and disrespected EVERY soldier that is or has ever served in Afghanistan by saying Hungarian soldiers don’t go out at night in Afghanistan but do so in the Hungarian Capital Budapest,

    Slippery our Prime Minister cracking snide jokes after the deaths and injuries suffered by the Kiwi troops what a piece of s**t…

    • chris73 6.1
      8 August 2012 at 10:03 am

      Got a link or source for either comments?

      • bad12 6.1.1
        8 August 2012 at 10:08 am

        Herald on line today, that good enough…

        • Carol 6.1.1.1
          8 August 2012 at 10:15 am

          Well, not really, because the article has now slipped off the Herald’s main page and is hard to find.

          But here it is, courtesy of a google.news search:

          http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10825366

          The highest-ranking Hungarian representative in New Zealand has described Prime Minister John Key’s remarks about the effectiveness of Hungarian troops in Afghanistan as “snide” and “unhelpful”….

          “Maybe there’s a gap there that needs to be addressed, but it’d be dealt with at that level and not by making snide remarks and inferring blame on Hungary for two New Zealanders’ deaths.

          “It’s completely unhelpful because I’m sure there’s very good reasons why Hungary doesn’t [patrol at night].

          “If New Zealand feels it is necessary to do that, then it is a discussion which should already have started.”

          She added: “I felt quite offended by it. It’s … emotive, quite derogatory. That’s my personal opinion.

          “It probably, if anything, just reflects more on John Key than on the actual relationship between New Zealand and Hungary.”

          • bad12 6.1.1.1.1
            8 August 2012 at 10:23 am

            I bow befor your superior computer skills…

          • Jackal 6.1.1.1.2
            8 August 2012 at 12:27 pm

            Cross another country off Nationals To Offend list.

          • weka 6.1.1.1.3
            8 August 2012 at 11:55 pm

            “It probably, if anything, just reflects more on John Key than on the actual relationship between New Zealand and Hungary.”
             

            Smart woman.
             
            Can Key be anymore embarrassing?

          • mike 6.1.1.1.4
            9 August 2012 at 4:12 am

            “Mr Key said: “As far as I’m aware, the Hungarians don’t go out at night. Not in Afghanistan anyway – they might in Budapest.””

            John Key you dick. Trying to make an insult to the courage of another country’s soldiers sound like a throw-away joke: fail. You’re not talking about a rugby rivalry now idiot.

            Here’s a hint JK, when discussing anything even remotely connected to people dying in warzones, just drop the jokey blokey jokes altogether. Because then you might look like less of an embarrasment to the country you pretend to represent. But don’t worry I understand Dear Banker, antisocials often just don’t realize that the things they say could offend others in even moderately complex emotional situations. It’s the inability to empathize thing, you see.

            Btw I think I’ve found John Key’s ‘How to bullshit the public when you’re slippery sociopath’ bible:
            http://loveforlife.com.au/content/08/02/09/25-ways-suppress-truth-rules-dis-information-michael-sweeny

  7. Bored 7
    8 August 2012 at 10:34 am

    Watching the infighting within Labours parliamentary team is so very sad. That it is happening is an indictment on the Caucus for not resolving the leadership issue in a satisfactory manner to all parties.

    I would suggest that the Guiding Principles of Labour http://www.labour.org.nz/about-us should be more than enough to set policy direction, and those too long in the tooth time servers who have not adhered to this for years in office need to go. There are some newer members in power positions who should probably sit down and read, and if they cannot commit begone (Parker, Shearer etc).

    To Mallard, King, Goff, Street, Dyson and others (in the words of Cromwell) “You have been sat to long here for any good you have been doing. Depart, I say, and let us have done with you. In the name of god, go!”

  8. Kotahi Tāne Huna 8
    8 August 2012 at 10:36 am

    Right on cue: the best thing about shooting yourself in the foot is that there’s one foot left.

    • Pete George 8.1
      8 August 2012 at 10:56 am

      On the scale of meaningless polls that one rates fairly high.

      What’s your reaction to Louisa Wall’s gay marriage bill?

      _ I’ll be more likely to vote for Labour
      _ I’ll be less likely to vote for Labour
      _ Happy/unhappy but voting preference unchanged

      It’s about evenly split between the three options of vagueness.

      • bad12 8.1.1
        8 August 2012 at 11:11 am

        ^ 🙄 ^

      • Kotahi Tāne Huna 8.1.2
        8 August 2012 at 11:14 am

        167 🙄

        • McFlock 8.1.2.1
          8 August 2012 at 3:45 pm

          That would be:

          🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄

             
          🙂 

    • Carol 8.2
      8 August 2012 at 11:14 am

      Not really shooting in the foot – especially not if you look at the poll results beside that article, on a news site where conservative opinions usually dominate in such polls.

      And it’s not helpful all round to support any conservative opposition to marriage equality by using it as evidence that equality shouldn’t happen.

      I think it’s actually positive to see such a debate in a lower socio-economic area where there is a significant amount of social conservatism. And Wall has responded well with some good arguments:

      http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/112663/labour-mp-wants-same-sex-marriage-bill-withdrawn

      Ms Wall says a lot of opposition by Pacific churches is based on the misbelief that they will be compelled to conduct same-sex marriages.

      “What I don’t like,” she says, “is ministers telling their congregation members that they’re going to have to accept same-sex marriages in those churches.

      “That’s not true; and I don’t want mistruths interfering in what should be a really rational debate about what a diverse New Zealand looks like and how we should all have tolerance and accept each other for who we are.”

      Ms Wall says her bill will allow same-sex couples to go to the state for a marriage licence and will not stop churches defining marriage as being between a man and a woman.

      She says she expects the bill to be sent to a select committee at its first reading, and Pacific communities should make submissions at that stage.

      and from the Herald article:

      Many Pacific Islanders also live in Wall’s electorate but she says she is not getting any resistance from voters.

      However, she had written to all religious leaders, not only Pacific leaders, in her electorate explaining what the bill was about and stressing they would not be forced to perform any gay marriages.

      “What I am really worried about is misinformation and propaganda.”

      Wall said she “completely disagreed” her bill could cost Labour the next election.

      “Labour will come out strongly in terms of fighting for the rights of all people. This fundamentally is about human rights and the dignity every New Zealand citizen has to access what is an institution that the state moderates, only the state can give out marriage licenses.”

      • Kotahi Tāne Huna 8.2.1
        8 August 2012 at 12:02 pm

        Sure, Louisa Wall is doing a very good job. Su’a Sio not so much. He talks about priorities as though Labour had no other bills on the ballot.

    • Tiger Mountain 8.3
      8 August 2012 at 11:38 am

      Who dis Su’a Sio? Don’t often hear a squeak out of him and then he pops up with this “warning” on the Wall Bill. I kind of agree with him though about what is a priority (as reported on RNZ) when we are looking down the barrel of a three term tory turd administration.

      Identity politics is fraught with booby traps as the Māori Party has comprehensively demonstrated.

      If not now, when? is the battle cry of all manner of worthy social and personal justice reform supporters. My instincts on the Wall Bill are charge on regardless of pasifika or any other god botherers, but what is the veracity of Sio’s claims? Are trad labour voters (who did not turn out in sufficient numbers in Mangere last time anyway) really going to dig their sandals in on this one policy?

      • bad12 8.3.1
        8 August 2012 at 11:54 am

        That’s pretty culturally insulting don’t you think, Mangere is 58% Pacific Island as a demographic, culturally,(whatever we think of it), that huge chunk of Pacific Island vote is very church based, i doubt S’ua Sio will lose His seat should the churches in His electorate become vocal opponents of the Wall bill,

        But,

        Should those churches do so Labour may loose a sizable chunk of it’s vote in the electorate…

        • Tigger 8.3.1.1
          8 August 2012 at 1:41 pm

          This whole ‘we should be working on the economy’ thing is pure BS. First, gay marriage is good for the economy. More weddings, more tourists from non-gay marriage countries coming here to wed. Second, if taken to its extreme, you should do nothing but work on the economy. Can anyone say that’s all they do? Of course not.

          • Vicky32 8.3.1.1.1
            8 August 2012 at 6:19 pm

            First, gay marriage is good for the economy

            Funny! 😀 😀 😀

            • Allyson 8.3.1.1.1.1
              9 August 2012 at 11:10 am

              Prostitution reform is also “good” for the South Auckland economy. Not a Labour vote winner though

        • the pink postman 8.3.1.2
          8 August 2012 at 3:27 pm

          bad12

          No but the bloody churches will still take the money from their members. The Pacific people will still be robbed by their pastors and what they don’t take the Nat’s who they will inadvertly help to victory will take the rest,
          I just cannot believe that this Labour MP would danger the chances of Labour at the next election because of religion, If he carries this out he should be expelled from the party , Religion should never influence policy.

        • the pink postman 8.3.1.3
          8 August 2012 at 3:27 pm

          bad12

          No but the bloody churches will still take the money from their members. The Pacific people will still be robbed by their pastors and what they don’t take the Nat’s who they will inadvertly help to victory will take the rest,
          I just cannot believe that this Labour MP would danger the chances of Labour at the next election because of religion, If he carries this out he should be expelled from the party , Religion should never influence policy.

          • bad12 8.3.1.3.1
            8 August 2012 at 3:47 pm

            So if S’ua Sio acting on behalf of the people that voted Him into the Parliament as a Labour MP votes against a piece of Legislation that is being carried through the Parliament as a ‘conscience vote’ He should be sacked,

            That appears to be the gist of what you are saying, I would have thought He deserves a promotion for actually acting on the wishes of those who voted him into the office in the first place…

            • Pascal's bookie 8.3.1.3.1.1
              8 August 2012 at 4:24 pm

              That’s not what he’s arguing at all B12.

              He is saying that the bill should be withdrawn or labour will lose.

              He can vote how he wants, it’s a conscience vote. But he is going further than that.

              And his argument is weak in any case,

              He claims 30K voters left after the CU bill. Labour won the election after that. Apparently though, either those voters came back to Lbabour and will leave again, or there are another 30K who will leave.

              That doesn’t actually make much sense when you think about it. More importantly though, he says that labour should be focussing on other things that are more important to these voters. Good oh, get fucking to it, it’s what we pay him for afterall.

              If Labour’s hold on these voters is so tenuous that marriage equality will send them packing, and there are other issues that will make them stay, then don’t blame the marriage equality. Get busy on the other stuff too.

            • Draco T Bastard 8.3.1.3.1.2
              8 August 2012 at 5:41 pm

              So if S’ua Sio acting on behalf of the people that voted Him into the Parliament

              I’ll believe he’s doing that when I see the referendum of his electorate. As I/S at NoRightTurn says though, polling indicates that the Pacific Islanders are actually more in favour of marriage equality than Pakeha.

            • the pink postman 8.3.1.3.1.3
              9 August 2012 at 3:04 pm

              B12.

              For a start I believe that there should not be a concience for MPs. If they are not happy voting with their party just obstain.
              Also if a member or MP has an issue then the conference is the place to discuss. Any MP or member who puts his party in danger should either shut up or resign.
              As an old time member of the LP I have often disagreed with some policies.The traitorious bastards Preeble /Douglas are an example but us true LP members just worked in the background to bring the party in line.
              One does not fight in public thus putting the LP in opposition for years.

        • McFlock 8.3.1.4
          8 August 2012 at 3:49 pm

          what will the churches do? Say ‘vote for National’? Key’s for the bill.
          Say ‘vote conservative’? If they are prespared to do that, they probably already have done. Say ‘vote for the Density political arm’? That would change things how?

          • Tiger Mountain 8.3.1.4.1
            8 August 2012 at 4:07 pm

            True, ShonKey has notched up a few appearances at the Auckland “Big Gay Out” to toady favour possibly with tory gay voters in Auckland Central for Nikki Kaye, figuring it won’t do him any harm.

            It will be interesting if the long rumoured MP aspirations of Michael Jones happen if he tires of flogging insurance and stands for the Nats, what is the ex all black going to say to the faithfull about his dear leaders stance.

            But really Sio should take a more sophisticated position.

          • Lanthanide 8.3.1.4.2
            8 August 2012 at 4:18 pm

            They’ll say don’t vote, and Labour will have a turnout like 2011.

            • McFlock 8.3.1.4.2.1
              8 August 2012 at 4:37 pm

              Actually, fair point.
                     
              But then that’s as good as telling them to vote National. 

  9. prism 9
    8 August 2012 at 11:01 am

    KTH
    That was very witty and true.

  10. prism 10
    8 August 2012 at 11:11 am

    Brownlee this morning gave me the pip. Going on about the Greens being the masters of meaningless talk – talk then about the big pot calling the kettle black. And having a go below the belt about Greens not wanting another war memorial, which they say they do but not now. And that seems reasonable – someone said similar way back. “Oh, Master, make me chaste and celibate – but not yet!” … Augustine was born in Tagaste, Numidia, now Souk Aghras, Algeria, in 354AD.

    Then later there was a news piece about moas managing to survive climate change but being beaten by being eaten by man. I bet it was an ancestor of Brownlees. Now that’s meaningless talk on my part! I’ll admit it but the man mountain drives me around the (mountain) bend.

  11. Jackal 11
    8 August 2012 at 12:10 pm

    Herald editor backs up shonkey legislation

    I’m getting used to the NZ Herald editorials being bent towards Nationals rightwing policy direction… In fact they’ve been completely devoid of objectivity and journalistic integrity lately…

    • Pete George 12.1
      8 August 2012 at 12:35 pm

      That’s beastly for them (as much as I hate the labels the media seem to think they have to apply to criminals).

      This is a very difficult dilemma, adhering to our laws but protecting society from someone like that. A genuine case for NIMBY.

    • joe90 12.2
      8 August 2012 at 12:44 pm

      We’re a prison town with local businesses dependant on the Kaitoke gold mine and the $30 million plus in wages corrections pay every year. Wilsons release will up the taxpayer contribution to us.

      Councillor Jacks reaction is somewhat puzzling though.

    • Draco T Bastard 12.3
      8 August 2012 at 4:01 pm

      It’s cases like that that show that we need some law that prevents obvious re-offenders from being released back into the community.

    • Bored 12.4
      8 August 2012 at 4:49 pm

      Well HS, it all started with an “H”….

  13. prism 13
    8 August 2012 at 12:28 pm

    Jackal 11
    Heartbreaking item from you with quotes from The Herald. Heralding what tho? And reminds me of a summary of the Exon oil spill debacle in an old textbook. There were rules, they were not adhered to, the authorities conspired to hide stuff, the precautionary gear that needed to be available and maintained over the years when there was no spill was not present or ready to go, etc.

    I came away from that couple of pages of condensed disaster info feeling certain that we can’t trust companies or government to be careful enough to prevent damage occurring from technologically challenging environmental projects. And indeed that was borne out by the fact that risk assessment was done by the company that led to a forecast that there would be a likely environmental breach within 25 years. So that was in their thinking when they started their oil transport project. In other words it is inevitable and the line of possibility goes up probably exponentially on the graph after so many years and keeps rising.

    • Bored 13.1
      8 August 2012 at 1:31 pm

      Prism / Jackal, I too am appalled by the legislation and the cavalier attitude toward risk to the environment. Remember the Rena, a few thousand tons of bunker oil, a spill of very minor proportions compared to what an oil well might deliver. But of course to Key and his buddies what we have is a cost to risk equation, nothing more or less.

  14. joe90 14
    8 August 2012 at 1:28 pm

    I wonder if there’s an I-predict book on if and when one of the new cure-all charter schools pulls something like this.

    One Louisiana school is dealing with the state’s high rates of teen pregnancy by taking an “out of sight, out of mind” approach. No pregnant students are welcome at Delhi Charter School in Delhi, Louisiana — a policy that the institution enforces by requiring students who are “suspected” of being pregnant to submit to a mandatory pregnancy test.
    If students are pregnant, they are no longer allowed to attend classes on the school’s campus and will be forced to either switch to another school or begin a home school program. If a student refuses to take the test, she is “treated as a pregnant student” and also kicked out of Delhi Charter School, according to the student handbook:

    If an administrator or teacher suspects a student is pregnant, a parent conference will be held. The school reserves the right to require any female student to take a pregnancy test to confirm whether or not the suspected student is in fact pregnant. The school further reserves the right to refer the suspected student to a physician of its choice. If the test indicates that the student is pregnant, the student will not be permitted to attend classes on the campus of Delhi Charter School.
    If a student is determined to be pregnant and wishes to continue to attend Delhi Charter School, the student will be required to pursue a course of home study that will be provided by the school…Any student who is suspected of being pregnant and who refuses to submit to a pregnancy test shall be treated as a pregnant student and will be offered home study opportunities. If home study opportunities are not acceptable, the student will be counseled to seek other educational opportunities.

    • Bored 14.1
      8 August 2012 at 1:35 pm

      Ah but Joe there are so many different models for Charter Schools, didnt you know? And some are very successful so we are told, by what criteria who knows but……anyway it is true because lovely blondie Catherine Isaacs said so. So there!

    • joe90 14.2
      8 August 2012 at 2:40 pm

      there are so many different models for Charter Schools,

      Then this’ll please Brian the bish.

      http://www.motherjones.com/blue-marble/2012/07/photos-evangelical-curricula-louisiana-tax-dollars

      • Bored 14.2.1
        8 August 2012 at 2:43 pm

        Cool link Joe, the best fun I have had all day. Can I be a teacher?

      • joe90 14.2.2
        8 August 2012 at 2:58 pm

        BoingBoing: What Do Christian Fundamentalists Have Against Set Theory?

        Set theory, particularly the stuff about infinity, has a bit of that wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey flavor to it. It doesn’t make sense on the level of “common sense”. It’s dealing with things that aren’t standard, simple numbers. It makes links between nice, factual math and floppy, subjective philosophy. If you’re raised in Christian fundamentalist culture, all of that—every last bit—absolutely reeks of modernism. It’s easy to see how somebody at A Beka would look at set theory and conclude that it’s really just modernist propaganda. To them, set theory is just a step on the road to godless atheism.

        • Colonial Viper 14.2.2.1
          8 August 2012 at 6:28 pm

          Best way to get rid of a troublesome female pupil is to get her knocked up.

    • prism 14.3
      8 August 2012 at 5:34 pm

      joe90 14
      Replace the word pregnant with the word ‘leper’ and see what perspective that gives.

  15. Dave Kennedy 15
    8 August 2012 at 1:52 pm

    National has let unfettered testosterone course through their decision making processes. Do we really want National’s collective testicles leading the governance of the country?
    http://localbodies-bsprout.blogspot.co.nz/2012/08/yin-and-yang-applied-to-governance.html

  16. Carol 16
    8 August 2012 at 2:53 pm

    Because the bosses like her accent? Really? REALLY?

    That’s what it takes to get a job at RNZ these days? Not being a good journalist, host or critical analyst?

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10825503

    • Tiger Mountain 16.1
      8 August 2012 at 3:45 pm

      Heh, to my kiwi ears, Noelle was a one trick pony with her tortured syllable adding ennunciation. She often sounded like she was dining at the same time as being on radio.

      Bomber Bradbury however seems not to have an accent to the liking of the tory toffs at RNZ.

      • Pete George 16.1.1
        8 August 2012 at 3:55 pm

        Do you mean his accent on extreme rhetoric?

        • fatty 16.1.1.1
          8 August 2012 at 5:38 pm

          Bomber is only extreme in comparison to the brainless and gutless twits that continue to perpetuate ignorance through their blogs…have you had anything readable in the past year of so Meat George?…yawn

      • Vicky32 16.1.2
        8 August 2012 at 6:55 pm

        Heh, to my kiwi ears, Noelle was a one trick pony with her tortured syllable adding ennunciation

        Seconded! As a matter of taste, I loathed her accent!
         

  17. chris73 17
    8 August 2012 at 4:47 pm

    http://www.nzonscreen.com/title/frost-over-new-zealand-the-leaders-1973

    Big Norm spoke quite well didn’t he but on a random note was one of the topics Frost was going to cover about “the fat society”?

    And here I was thinking this was something that had happened only in the last decade…

  18. Pete George 18
    8 August 2012 at 4:49 pm

    The worst excuse yet for not voting for the marriage equality bill. Damien O’Connor
    said “he did not believe the discrimination and injustice was so great that it warranted a change in the legislation”.

    “In short, I have taken into account all of the facts and I believe that there are far more injustices that need to be addressed. For example, people who are disabled through accidents receive full support, while those disabled from birth do not. These injustices are the issues that need to be addressed.”

    It’s being debated in the house regardless of how important he thinks it is. Is he going to be too busy working on injustices to vote?

    I thought he was supposed to be a straight talker.

    • felix 18.1
      8 August 2012 at 7:24 pm

      Lame. Now let’s see you do one about most of the National MPs and their lame reasons for not voting for marriage equality.

      • QoT 18.1.1
        8 August 2012 at 10:17 pm

        Well, I’m kind of on Pete’s side here, felix. O’Connor was quite happy not that long ago to whinge about Labour being invaded by a “gaggle of gays” in order to suck up to the assumedly-redneck West Coast-Tasman crowd, and now he’s too chickenshit to actually say “I’m going to vote against this because I disagree with it”?

        Seriously, he’s said “Even though I am being given the opportunity to help with a minor oppression which I admit exists, and even though it will take no more effort on my part to support this than to oppose it, I’m going to oppose it because it’s not a big deal.” How does that even fucking work?

        Like, “Even though you have given me a free icecream I’m going to refuse to eat any of it because I only want a little bit of icecream, not a whole icecream.”

  19. chris73 19
    8 August 2012 at 6:45 pm

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/7439618/Dire-euro-straits-bring-Kiwis-home

    Did someone in Labour seriously piss off someone in the media just recently?

  20. rosy 20
    8 August 2012 at 7:10 pm

    Not a good time to be a Muslim in Burma. Escaping to Bangladesh is not something people would do unless desperate and in fear for their lives. So far 80,000 people have recently decided to do this. And they’re not welcome.