Open mike 09/04/2020

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, April 9th, 2020 - 249 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

249 comments on “Open mike 09/04/2020 ”

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  1. Ad 1
    9 April 2020 at 6:06 am

    Bernie Sanders is out of the race.

    If this pandemic had happened a year earlier, the need for nationwide healthcare reform would have been his saving.

    It's a cruel fate this 2020 election.

    • Andre 1.1
      9 April 2020 at 7:23 am

      Credit to Bernie for shifting the terms of debate on healthcare. But I've got my doubts that Medicare for all would have been enough to tip it to Bernie even had the pandemic happened a year earlier.

      First, there's Bernie's approach to the topic. Half of Americans get their healthcare through employer subsidised insurance. It's a fact of human nature that people value keeping what they have more than taking a risk on getting something better. Given the degree of governmental malfunction in areas of governmental monopoly in the US, being forced into a government health health plan looks like a big risk.

      Second, paying for M4A is a gnarly topic. Bernie didn't have a clear message on how workers would be better off financially. Most people just heard their taxes would go up to pay for it. Furthermore, relieving companies of their burden of subsidising their employee health insurance programs amounts to a massive windfall to the companies.

      Third, the other candidates would have adjusted their messaging, so Bernie's stance would not have remained as large a differentiation as it was.

      edit: then there’s this piece for a broader look at why Bernie fell short.

      https://www.huffpost.com/entry/bernie-sanders-campaign-retrospective-2020-democratic-primary_n_5e837ecfc5b603fbdf4a8782

      • Ad 1.1.1
        9 April 2020 at 7:53 am

        Andre I just threw that line about healthcare in to be kind to the Bernie supporters.

        Be nice to them today and don't bayonet the wounded.

        • Andre 1.1.1.1
          9 April 2020 at 8:17 am

          Sorrreeee. blush

          • Ad 1.1.1.1.1
            9 April 2020 at 8:18 am

            🙂

          • Cinny 1.1.1.1.2
            9 April 2020 at 8:23 am

            🙂

            Gutted for the USA, beginning to think they have been cursed, the death toll coming out of there is horrendous. Those poor people.

            At least Bernie is staying on the ballot, even if he has pulled out of the presidential race.

            • Andre 1.1.1.1.2.1
              9 April 2020 at 8:50 am

              There is the practical matter that if he gets over 1/4 of the delegates (including superdelegates), he can force a vote at the convention on any policy platform proposals he wants to push. That means he would need around 1200. He's got about 900 now, with about 1600 still to be voted on, so it will be tight for clearing that hurdle.

            • Carolyn_Nth 1.1.1.1.2.2
              9 April 2020 at 10:42 am

              The global death toll is horrendous, including the high NUMBER of deaths in the US. However, so far, the US does not have the highest death rate pre 1 million of their population. Their’s is 44. Many European countries and the UK have higher death rates so far.

              US: 44

              UK: 105

              France: 167

              Netherlands: 131

              Belgium: 193

              Spain: 316

              Switzerland: 103

              Sweden: 68

              Ireland: 48

              • Bearded Git …
                9 April 2020 at 11:04 am

                The US and the UK are catching up Carolyn, though doubt if they will get near Spain and Italy which has a death rate of 292/m. Odd you missed it from your list.

                • Carolyn_Nth …
                  9 April 2020 at 11:10 am

                  Yes. I did say this is the current stats. My list wasn't comprehensive – just a selection to show some of the spread. Spain is the highest at the moment.

                  I linked to the full list in my opening sentence.

                • Andre …
                  9 April 2020 at 11:23 am

                  If the US gets a similar death rate to the current death rates in Italy and Spain, then they will have around 100K deaths. But they're still suffering high ongoing deaths in Italy etc.

                  Compared to Italy and Spain, the US has a younger population and a culture that is somewhat less up close and personal in terms of physical space. But the US went a lot later and softer on physical distancing and isolation, helping the contagion spread.

                  It's a horrifying but fascinating experiment to watch as it plays out in real time.

              • Cinny …
                9 April 2020 at 12:35 pm

                Thanks for that Carolyn, was wondering what that stat's were like re population. Much appreciated.

                Andre, they were talking of 100,000 -200,000 expected deaths in the US last week at one of trumps pressers. Agree re horrifying but fascinating however twisted that sounds.

                • In Vino …
                  9 April 2020 at 5:59 pm

                  The stats don't tell everything. You probably know that we Kiwis have greater personal space than people in densely concentrated urban areas.

                  The last time I visited a big European city, I took two weeks to get used to the density of buildings and the number of people always close to me.. So different from my major-city NZ abode.

                  NZ has an advantage in that respect – the virus will naturally spread faster in those areas of greater population density.

        • Tiger Mountain 1.1.1.2
          9 April 2020 at 9:39 am

          And, condescending post of the day so far award goes to…it never failed to amaze, the number of spineless centrists and closet righties masquerading as leftists, disparaging the Sanders Campaign on The Standard. Not even luke warm support for Medicare for all and $15 min wage etc.

          Bernie put up a great campaign–his analysis and policy were spot on–as subsequent tragic events have illustrated what happens with for profit healthcare and millions living week to week on low wages…

          His strength–not running with the herd–was ultimately his weakness too. But he has certainly laid the platform for “the next Bernie”.

          • Ad 1.1.1.2.1
            9 April 2020 at 10:38 am

            Sanders and Warren have already shunted Biden leftwards on many policy areas.

            Everyone will be looking to see what Biden's revised healthcare plan looks like.

            Straight out of the blocks the big progressive activist groups have told Biden what they are wanting out of him

            https://nextgenamerica.org/Biden-letter/

            The big question is whether Trump's popularity bump holds for 4 weeks, 8 weeks or 10. That's the danger. Nothing either Biden or Sanders could have done about that,.

          • Gabby 1.1.1.2.2
            9 April 2020 at 2:07 pm

            Did he sell it to employers as saving them a buttload of money?

        • AB 1.1.1.3
          9 April 2020 at 10:35 am

          The Sanders campaign no doubt made some tactical mistakes – I've said before that the branding of 'revolution' and "democratic socialism" was unsuited to that particular political market. The policy prescriptions (on the whole) were well received by a majority – and a rhetoric of returning to the sensible centre after 40 years of extremism, a return to proven solutions from America's own past and to core American values, would have been a better approach.

          That said, history takes no prisoners as 'Pepe' Mujica remarked"And now I am the president. And tomorrow, like everyone, I will just be a pile of worms". The grace, historical awareness and humility of Sanders withdrawal speech yesterday, as is so often the case with defeated candidates, gives us a sense of what has been lost.

    • Morrissey 1.2
      9 April 2020 at 9:15 am

      Bernie was out of the race when he failed to counter Warren's scurrilous lie about him being a sexist, and when he claimed, bizarrely, that that doddering old fool from Delaware could beat Trump.

      no

      • RedLogix 1.2.1
        9 April 2020 at 12:04 pm

        All white males over a certain age are by definition misogynist. There was nothing Bernie could have said to 'defend' himself. Indeed the mere attempt at doing so would have only confirmed his guilt.

      • Ad 1.2.2
        9 April 2020 at 12:11 pm

        Defending the literacy programme of Castro was excellent for left sympathizers, but it lost him Florida. You can win neither a nomination nor a presidency without Florida.

        • Morrissey 1.2.2.1
          9 April 2020 at 1:06 pm

          But the Cuban literacy programme was, and is, excellent. As is the Cuban health system. Bernie lost not because he told the truth and angered a few elderly extreme right ideologues, but because the Democratic Party machine was determined not to let his "insurgent", i.e. authentically popular and truly democratic, campaign triumph. They'd rather have Trump than Bernie, that is clear.

          And then of course there's the very serious question of Bernie's failure to stick up for himself in the face of a campaign of belittlement and abuse; very similar to Corbyn's failure.

          • Andre 1.2.2.1.1
            9 April 2020 at 1:15 pm

            Sanders was indeed correct about the Cuban literacy programs being a good thing. In a very narrow sense.

            But arguing that statement is technically correct when you are trying to win an election in Florida is grossly negligent political malpractice, given the importance of the Cuban-American vote. The malpractice is further aggravated by the foregone opportunity to draw a contrast with the current nepotistic kakistocracy's habit of using the presidency to promote their personal private business interests in foreign countries.

            • Morrissey 1.2.2.1.1.1
              9 April 2020 at 1:25 pm

              The Democratic Party has a long and dishonorable history of compromising, indeed abandoning, basic commitments to human rights in order to get the votes of certain sectors. Before the Cuban right wing, the Florida constituency it bent over backwards to placate was the Ku Klux Klan.

              • Andre …
                9 April 2020 at 1:32 pm

                What does that have to do with the dumbfuckery involved in Sanders blowing a perfect opportunity to go after Don Drumpfeone's corrupt foreign entanglements, just so he could show off the moral superiority of his progressive purity?

                Thereby blowing any chance he may have had of winning the biggest swing state, for no conceivable gain anywhere else.

                • Morrissey …
                  9 April 2020 at 1:36 pm

                  Stating an uncontestable truth is not to make a show of "purity", it's simply stating a fact. Telling a lie in order to curry favour with the extreme Cuban right wing would not make him a whit more electable, it would make him another Hillary Clinton.

                  But, anyway, they’re going to select someone who’s prepared to say anything, and does.

                  • Andre …
                    9 April 2020 at 1:48 pm

                    One of the most basic political skills needed to successfully run for a position as basic as a student council is how to use a question as an entry to talk about a subject that's favourable ground. There's no need to lie, he simply needed to make his answer about something that isn't awkward ground, while still "addressing the subject" in an innocuous way.

                    Sanders failed that basic test that's frankly at high-school politics level. And cost himself what could have been a significant prize in a completely unforced error.

                    • Morrissey …
                      9 April 2020 at 5:02 pm

                      Well said, sir. Yes, Mr Sanders could certainly have spoken more adroitly.

                      However, in the end, his opposition was the billionaire-backed DNC, and they were going to win their pyrhhic victory no matter what. I do not look forward with any relish to the gruesome spectacle of Biden being savaged and humiliated by Trump.

                      I just hope that this year we are spared the unedifying sight of unhinged Democratic Party supporters gnashing their teeth and melting down like this….

  2. Ad 2
    9 April 2020 at 6:27 am

    The World Trade Organisation makes it very clear why this impending global recession will be far worse than the 2008-9 GFC:

    "The economic shock of the COVID-19 pandemic inevitably invites comparisons to the global financial crisis of 2008-09. These crises are similar in certain respects but very different in others. As in 2008-09, governments have again intervened with monetary and fiscal policy to counter the downturn and provide temporary income support to businesses and households.

    But restrictions on movement and social distancing to slow the spread of the disease mean that labour supply, transport and travel are today directly affected in ways they were not during the financial crisis. Whole sectors of national economies have been shut down, including hotels, restaurants, non-essential retail trade, tourism and significant shares of manufacturing."

    "A strong rebound is more likely if businesses and consumers view the pandemic as a temporary, one-time shock. In this case, spending on investment goods and consumer durables could resume at close to previous levels once the crisis abates. On the other hand, if the outbreak is prolonged and/or recurring uncertainty becomes pervasive, households and business are likely to spend more cautiously.

    Under both scenarios, all regions will suffer double-digit declines in exports and imports in 2020…"

    https://www.wto.org/english/news_e/pres20_e/pr855_e.htm

    This to me show how distinct the New Zealand response to the health crisis of the virus is to the economic response to the shutdown.

    I have a suspicion we will be as different a country coming out of this one as we were before and after the Great Depression.

  3. ScottGN 3
    9 April 2020 at 6:39 am

    Ha! Radio NZ just had a piece on the news with National’s Campaign Chair Paula Bennett saying that the government must delay the election – “NZers won’t cope” she said.

    Any guesses what National’s polling must be telling them?

    • weka 3.1
      9 April 2020 at 7:21 am

      Lol.

      What does she mean "can't cope"?

      • ScottGN 3.1.1
        9 April 2020 at 7:34 am

        I don’t know what she meant. Whatever it is it will be bullshit though, a delaying tactic to allow National time to get their dirty politics machinery back on track.

      • KJT 3.1.2
        9 April 2020 at 10:52 am

        She means that National knows they don't have a shit Show of getting back into power this year.

        So. They need extra time for a manipulative propaganda offensive.

      • UncookedSelachimorpha 3.1.3
        9 April 2020 at 12:07 pm

        She means NZ "can't cope" with anything other than a National government.

    • bwaghorn 3.2
      9 April 2020 at 7:28 am

      Yesterday colmar brunton put out a poll saying 90% of people trust the government's handling of covid

      • ScottGN 3.2.1
        9 April 2020 at 7:44 am

        Interestingly I’ve been getting some of those National Party Border Closure petition posts on my Facebook in the last 24 hours. Given the party political nature of these posts you’d expect the comments to be mostly supportive. But they’re not really. National is getting chastised by their own supporters for electioneering at this time.

      • tc 3.2.2
        9 April 2020 at 7:45 am

        Swinging voters likely on board then and why not when you look at Bridges arrogance.

    • observer 3.3
      9 April 2020 at 7:34 am

      I thought Scott must have misheard (hey, it's early) but no …

      RNZ news report

      What's more, the deputy Oppn leader doesn't even understand the law:

      "With New Zealand now in full lockdown for at least another two weeks and businesses and livelihoods in disarray, the opposition said an election in September just seemed too much.

      National's deputy leader and campaign chair Paula Bennett said the government and opposition needed to discuss in the weeks ahead whether 19 September was a realistic date." (italics added)

      Of course, the PM doesn't need to discuss the election date with National at all. PMs never do that with the opposition. Ardern could call an election tomorrow (if she lost her mind). September 19 is an intention, but has no meaning in law.You aren't relevant, Paula.

      They would certainly need to discuss an extension of the term, which would need approval from Parliament. But there is no reason to do that when an election could be held as late as December, if the PM so decides.

      • tc 3.3.1
        9 April 2020 at 7:39 am

        Wondered how long before they'd bring that up.
        Shows where the real concern is…..getting decimated. Bridges would’ve floored them.

      • weka 3.3.2
        9 April 2020 at 7:46 am

        "With New Zealand now in full lockdown for at least another two weeks and businesses and livelihoods in disarray, the opposition said an election in September just seemed too much."

        I will be interested to see how that goes down. Can't see any kind of rationale there. The only challenge is how to vote in ways that don't spread coronavirus. Other than that, NZers are resilient enough to manage voting in five months time. It's not like it's next week. Daft (but haven't listened for the context).

        • observer 3.3.2.1
          9 April 2020 at 7:54 am

          If there was any kind of rationale, Bennett would be saying:

          "Forget about going to watch sport in September. Forget about going to concerts and all those events that require more public interaction and health concerns than going to one location and putting paper in a ballot box."

          That would be logical, and incredibly unpopular, so …

          • weka 3.3.2.1.1
            9 April 2020 at 8:09 am

            Actually, I'm not assuming we will be able to do public gatherings by September, and that the govt may have to make arrangements around that to ensure voting can happen.

        • dv 3.3.2.2
          9 April 2020 at 7:59 am

          Assuming the lockdown is over by Sept!!!

          • observer 3.3.2.2.1
            9 April 2020 at 8:07 am

            Paula's not a deep thinker, but it should occur to her that the lockdown will be over well before Sept … unless things go badly wrong and we have a second wave – a rise in cases and back to Level 4.

            If that happens, the government's support will take a hit. National would change their tune.

            • bwaghorn 3.3.2.2.1.1
              9 April 2020 at 8:45 am

              We wont be in lock down in September. It just wouldn't be possible.

              It would destroy nz financially.

              People wouldn't handle it or accept it .

              • dv …
                9 April 2020 at 8:51 am

                Bw very likely you are right

                BUT can you predict especially what will happen with the virus, AND what will happen overseas eg USA, Europe.

                • Forget now …
                  9 April 2020 at 9:34 am

                  It depends what you mean by lockdown. I can't see the entire country being still at level 4 for the duration. But level 1 certainly, which prohibits mass gatherings (eg political rallies, demonstrations, or fundraising concerts). And some parts of the country may be level 2 or higher (over 70s encouraged to stay at home and as yet unspecified size smaller gatherings only).

                  But a virtual lockdown may linger on in people's heads. Being permitted to return to social proximity does not mean that we will overnight overcome the fear and distancing conditioning we will have spent months soaking up.

                  A society is an ongoing process not a fixed object.

                • bwaghorn …
                  9 April 2020 at 11:22 am

                  I predict we will have stamped out but will still be quarantining and inbound travelers a measure that will start this week . (It better start this week)

                  The USA will be carnges Europe will be winning slowly . 3rf world countries dont know.

                  • Forget now …
                    9 April 2020 at 2:55 pm

                    How will we know if we have stamped out Corona? Given that the antibody tests are far more likely to give a false negative (insufficient viral load at time,or sampling error), than a false positive (samples getting mixed up, testing equipment inadequately sterilized). Let alone the possibility of animal reservoirs (really hoping that we've avoided that nightmare scenario).

                    If any of the 10% or more people diagnosed with Covid who test as false negatives then proceed to infect others, we will be back in an exponential growth phase again very quickly.

                    • Incognito …
                      9 April 2020 at 3:26 pm

                      Antibodies are a host response and made by the host and will stay in the host’s circulation (or not) long after the virus has gone from the host. Equipment sterilisation is to remove viable bugs and spores, not antibodies (although these should also be removed in the whole cleaning & sterilisation process).

                    • Forget now []
                      9 April 2020 at 4:24 pm

                      Whoops! I meant that the current SARS-COV-2 RNA testing. Overly hopeful to announce the existence of an antibody test that would be able to tell who has previously been infected!

                      Sterilisation itself should get rid of contamination from previous tests, but only if done correctly. People get tired and mistakes get made, but my point was that a false negative is currently more likely than a false positive.

                    • Incognito []
                      9 April 2020 at 4:42 pm

                      Almost all the materials used for the PCR-based test are disposable.

                      Yes, people do make mistakes and tired people make more mistakes but the decontamination & sterilisation processes are almost fully automated and done according to SOPs that stand the test of time, so to speak.

                      Yup, likelihood of false negative is much higher than false positive.

                    • patricia …
                      9 April 2020 at 4:15 pm

                      Yes ForgetNow, , and Jacinda will listen to the scientists.

                      You are right about the possible problem of animal transmission.

                      We have never eradicated bovine TB in possums, and spend billions testing and poisoning. Governments deal with Foot and Mouth by culling and burning all affected animals… that was a British nightmare at one stage.

                      We are learning more about this virus, some helpful, some terrifying.

                      I have never in my 78 years felt as I do now. Friends and family truly at risk and many learning how tenuous the threads of the "safety net" really are. Learning to value our humans and pets, and creating our own safety net, all the time being aware of the hidden mainly silent suffering of those whose lives have been damaged or at least impacted by this virus.

                      I am a survivor of the 1946/7 polio epidemic which closed schools and had 34 victims in a village of 326. I was six and did not have close contact with my parents while in the Waikato Crippled Children's Hospital for nearly six months. I saw them twice through the distorting glass of the hospital door.

                      This has made me feel for those in quarantine or hospital separated from loved ones. It is terrible and remains a fear for life. Also not being able to say goodbye takes comfort away from the bereaved.

                      Awful though this has been for some, most of us have been spared that through the decisions of a switched on Leader and cabinet, who have put well being at the centre of Government Policy.

                      Let us hope that they manage the swell of unemployed, streamline the mechanics of welfare, revamp training and retraining and build the support net needed 'till we weather this. May the goodwill last.

                    • bwaghorn …
                      9 April 2020 at 5:21 pm

                      Can this thing lie dormant? Or if we have 4 weeks with no new cases is most likely it's gone.

                  • patricia …
                    9 April 2020 at 3:41 pm

                    bwaghorn, "quarantining"Starting midnight tonight 9/4/20

                  • Andre …
                    9 April 2020 at 7:00 pm

                    @wags: Can this thing lie dormant? Or if we have 4 weeks with no new cases is most likely it's gone.

                    My bigger concern is how long this lurgee can be infectious in asymptomatic/low symptom carriers. It could only need a chain of two or three asymptomatic carriers to go past that four weeks and then initiate a whole new infectious breakout.

              • In Vino …
                9 April 2020 at 6:41 pm

                Not only that. Lockdown would have been a proven failure by September.

          • weka 3.3.2.2.2
            9 April 2020 at 8:10 am

            Nope, we should still be able to vote even from lock down.

        • dv 3.3.2.3
          9 April 2020 at 8:05 am

          And the other aspect is that some big businesses are struggling to survive for 4 week and need tax payers support

          Do they not have ANY planning for major problems?

      • mac1 3.3.3
        9 April 2020 at 11:35 am

        National's deputy leader and campaign chair Paula Bennett said the government and opposition needed to discuss in the weeks ahead whether 19 September was a realistic date."

        It's interesting how someone projects their own wants and needs onto someone else. She means the opposition wants to discuss. The government certainly does not need to. It sets the election date. It's about Paula's, and National's, desires. She really means, "I want to change the date." Needs and wants- too easily confused.

    • Cinny 3.4
      9 April 2020 at 8:24 am

      Who can't cope paula? Maybe she's run out of oregano?

    • Gabby 3.5
      9 April 2020 at 2:15 pm

      They'll be glad of a day out by September.

  4. Morrissey 4
    9 April 2020 at 9:00 am

    A puff piece on Passover in Jerusalem

    RNZ National, Thursday 9 April 2020, 8:50 a.m.

    Listeners this morning were inflicted with another P.R. piece for Israel—this time a once-over-lightly piece about Passover/Easter in Jerusalem with one Barry Guy, who usually does the sports news, having a breezy chat with Liat Collins of the extreme right wing Jerusalem Post. He asked not one awkward question, of course.

    Liat Collins has been used by the dupes at RNZ National before…..

    https://morrisseybreen.blogspot.com/2018/01/another-israeli-propagandist-takes.html

    • Paddington 4.1
      9 April 2020 at 9:28 am

      You're on that again? Ok, I can argue this either way, because there are madmen on both sides. But just for you:

      Attacked by Palestinians on Israeli's since October 1st:

      Stabbings = 84

      Attempted Stabbings = 57

      Car Attacks = 31

      Shootings = 20

      Bombings = 4

      Death Toll:

      Palestinians killed carrying out attacks against Israelis = 149

      Palestinians shot by Israeli forces during clashes = 59

      Israelis killed in attacks by Palestinians = 35

      Citizens of other countries killed = 5

      https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/world/israel-palestine-deaths/

      • Morrissey 4.1.1
        9 April 2020 at 9:30 am

        MEMO: Editors/Moderators of The Standard

        Lin, why is this ignoramus allowed to post inflammatory nonsense?

        [lprent: Because we mainly and almost entirely moderate on behaviour. Ideological differences can be aired provided that they don’t descend into hate speech and bigotry. And we’re pretty good at detecting undeclared pattern of behaviours and dealing with them. The same thing applies to paddington, as it does to you. ]

        • Paddington 4.1.1.1
          9 April 2020 at 10:09 am

          The data is taken from the Washington Post. These are simple facts. If you want to self promote your own blog, go for gold. But as I have posted earlier, the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is a complex mixture of historical, religious and cultural factors where there is no good guy/bad guy scenario. No matter how you try to paint it otherwise.

          • lprent 4.1.1.1.1
            9 April 2020 at 10:34 am

            These are simple facts.

            Nope – I’d describe them as being self-serving propaganda and simply not worth the media they are printed on.

            Those figures are what are reported by the Israeli forces. Since the occupation troops are a pack of layabout draftees who have been known to lie every time they fuck up – I personally give them no credibility when they are reporting their live round kills.

            Anyone who has spent time living on the west bank (and I know a few who have) knows the Israeli draftees are useless lazy young badly trained fuckwits with guns. They routinely block the checkpoints so that they can have a siesta. They like to provoke the palestinians going through checkpoints or when they are on patrol. And in my estimation at least half of their kills and injuries are directly due to their behaviour.

            They are an occupying force of incompetent garritroopers. Which is why they also don’t let in outside observers to evaluate their reporting of the justification of their troops. It is also why the Israelis don’t even let their own courts look at the behaviour of their troops.

            I can’t read the WP article – but I’d take a bet that they haven’t referenced a single Palestinian report.

            So I’d say that your authoritative source could be described only as complete trash. About as credible as the lack of active Russian troop involvement in Eastern Ukraine – which is the classic example of fake PR.

            • Morrissey 4.1.1.1.1.1
              9 April 2020 at 10:51 am

              Thanks, Lin. Here's some reading for our friend Paddington….

              https://mondoweiss.net/2019/01/newspapers-palestinians-headlines/

            • Paddington 4.1.1.1.1.2
              9 April 2020 at 1:13 pm

              Hi lprent. Thanks for your response. I'm not going to push this, because my point was not to defend Israeli activity but to try to communicate to Morrisey that the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is far more complicated than his rather simplistic commentary. From my own observation, this is a conflict between intractible parties whose focus on ancient historical and religious grievances is (close to) psycopathic.

            • lprent 4.1.1.1.1.3
              9 April 2020 at 2:28 pm

              Of course I could have just as easily argued the other way.

              But on the balance, I think that the Palestinians have had the raw end of the stick both from the Israeli state (who in my view have no historical rights to Palestine – unless they wish to argue with the Romans) and from the Europeans of Europe and the US, who they could easily argue owe them for their complicity and actions in a recent genocide.

              It sure as hell doesn't give the Israeli government any right to attempt genocide or ethnic cleansing on their fellow citizens of the land of Palestine.

          • Morrissey 4.1.1.1.2
            9 April 2020 at 10:36 am

            The data is [sic] taken from the Washington Post.

            Those absurd and dubious "statistics"—Palestinians are not just shot by IDF marksmen, they are always killed appropriately, as in "killed carrying out attacks against Israelis", "clashes", and "attempted stabbings"—are direct from the Israeli authorities, and are nearly always contested by human rights groups and witnesses of the killings. The Washington Post is notoriously biased on this issue, amongst many others.

    • observer 4.2
      9 April 2020 at 9:33 am

      It's a discussion of Passover. At Passover.

      There is no possible reason to object to that.

      • Morrissey 4.2.1
        9 April 2020 at 9:42 am

        It's a discussion of Passover. In Jerusalem. With an extreme right commentator who shamelessly defends Israeli actions and routinely pours opprobrium on the victims of Israel’s regime of repression.

        There is every reason to object to that, but poor Barry Guy had not a clue.

        • observer 4.2.1.1
          9 April 2020 at 9:47 am

          None of which is in the piece. So listeners were not "inflicted" (your word) with anything.

          Except an accurate description of a traditional Jewish festival, and that would not annoy any reasonable person. (Of course some might be triggered by it, but we despise those people, don't we?).

      • Bearded Git 4.2.2
        9 April 2020 at 3:10 pm

        On Jessie Mulligan today a lovely intelligent Jewish restaurant lady was talking about the fact that because NZ Jews cannot meet some were going to have "Zoom Passover"….love that.

    • Gabby 4.3
      9 April 2020 at 4:32 pm

      Jeez Morry, what's your problem with passover?

  5. Peter 5
    9 April 2020 at 9:41 am

    Here is the news, the sad new about the lockdown.

    We have 'gotten' nasty in 14 days with online bitching. Exactly that.

    Mike Hosking said it; " … and nasty, and my word we have gotten nasty in 14 days with online bitching."

    He is upset because in 14 days we have got nasty and bitchy? 14 days? Is it 14 years he's been like that?

    • Cinny 5.1
      9 April 2020 at 9:46 am

      Lmao !!!!!! Bruised ego hosking after kiwi's slayed him on social media for being an egg.

      Maybe he could start a support group 🙂

      • UncookedSelachimorpha 5.1.1
        9 April 2020 at 12:11 pm

        Start a Give A Little for Mike's ego I say! I'll put in the first cent (or do they allow half-cent donations?)

    • Anker 5.2
      9 April 2020 at 10:06 am

      Next MikieHoskings will be calling for kindness….

      seriously though, can’t we get rid of him. Please

    • Sabine 5.3
      9 April 2020 at 10:21 am

      twenty years. He was bitchy and nasty while on morning TV in 1998 with his then lover, now wife.

      The guy and his now missus were never anything else but nasty and bitchy.

    • ScottGN 5.4
      9 April 2020 at 10:31 am

      He’s gone behind the paywall on the Herald. Maybe they no longer think he’s quite the crowd-puller they thought?

    • Gabby 5.5
      9 April 2020 at 4:33 pm

      Did the wind change on Horeskin and he got his own back?

  6. aj 6
    9 April 2020 at 9:43 am

    From the Independent Media Institute:

    Truth and Propaganda About Coronavirus

    "In the early weeks when the virus emerged in Wuhan, the Chinese government neither suppressed evidence nor did their warning systems fail"

  7. Morrissey 7
    9 April 2020 at 9:50 am

    Beyond Words

    by CRAIG MURRAY, 8 April 2020

    Yesterday Mark Sommers QC, the extremely erudite and bookish second counsel for Julian Assange in his extradition hearing, trembled with anger in court. Magistrate Vanessa Baraitser had just made a ruling that the names of Julian Assange’s partner and young children could be published, which she stated was in the interests of “open justice”. His partner had submitted a letter in support of his Covid 19 related bail application (which Baraitser had summarily dismissed) to state he had a family to live with in London. Baraitser said that it was therefore in the interests of open justice that the family’s names be made public, and said that the defence had not convincingly shown this would cause any threat to their security or well-being. It was at this point Sommers barely kept control. He leapt to his feet and gave notice of an appeal to the High Court, asking for a 14 day stay. Baraitser granted four days, until 4pm on Friday.

    I am in lockdown in Edinburgh, but received three separate eye witness reports. They are unanimous that yet again Baraitser entered the court carrying pre-written judgements before hearing oral argument; pre-written judgements she gave no appearance of amending.

    There have been two Covid-19 deaths in Belmarsh prison so far. For obvious reasons the disease is ripping through the jail like wildfire. The Department of Justice is admitting to one death…

    Read more….

    https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2020/04/beyond-words/

    • The Al1en 7.1
      9 April 2020 at 10:19 am

      Good job he's in solitary confinement, then, and not general population.

      • Morrissey 7.1.1
        9 April 2020 at 10:25 am

        People like you sneered at the people locked away in Stalin's and Mao's crackdowns on dissenters.

        Will you laugh if he dies?

        • The Al1en 7.1.1.1
          9 April 2020 at 10:36 am

          Only people like you could associate assange with the victims of Mao and Stalin.

          • Morrissey 7.1.1.1.1
            9 April 2020 at 10:39 am

            Only people like you would laugh at the victims of Mao and Stalin.

            • The Al1en 7.1.1.1.1.1
              9 April 2020 at 10:41 am

              Except I don't.

              • Morrissey …
                9 April 2020 at 10:45 am

                You laugh at the suffering of Julian Assange. I have no doubt that you would also have laughed at the suffering of other dissenters and journalists imprisoned by repressive and anti-democratic regimes.

                Or is this contempt for Assange just a one-off?

                • The Al1en …
                  9 April 2020 at 10:52 am

                  Logical fallacies

                  I think you used every single fallacy in this chart during this exchange.

                  • Morrissey …
                    9 April 2020 at 10:56 am

                    You sneer at the suffering of a political dissenter in Great Britain and callously repeat state-sponsored lies about him. Ergo, you would probably have sneered at the suffering of political dissenters in other brutal regimes and you would have callously repeated state-sponsored lies about them. That’s a reasonable inference, assuming that your behaviour in this case is not bizarrely inconsistent with your normal behaviour.

                    Your comments on logic are as credible and as thorough as your disparagement of Julian Assange.

                    • The Al1en …
                      9 April 2020 at 10:59 am

                      Losing credibility in your eyes is a right of passage on the standard and should be taken as a compliment rather than a curse.

                      Being shamed by Mr Angry from Cheam isn't as bad as you may believe it to be.

                      But that aside, do carry on with how outrageous it is that a convicted bail jumper didn’t get bail.

                    • Morrissey …
                      9 April 2020 at 11:10 am

                      You can be sure that I'm not the only one who sees you have little or no credibility. Your lame "Mr Angry from Cheam" quip shows you have little or no SOH, either.

                    • McFlock …
                      9 April 2020 at 1:30 pm

                      Moz, a few people here agree with you. A few people here agree with The Al1en. That's how a forum works.

                      I would suggest you get over yourself, but that would be futility exemplified.

                    • Morrissey …
                      9 April 2020 at 1:31 pm

                      You could be right there, McFlock. yesheart

      • Francesca 7.1.2
        9 April 2020 at 10:33 am

        Except he's not

        That ended some weeks if not months ago

        • The Al1en 7.1.2.1
          9 April 2020 at 10:35 am

          So the campaign to end the isolation 'torture' has put him in more danger. Well done.

          • Francesca 7.1.2.1.1
            9 April 2020 at 10:40 am

            No the UK and US govts with the complete endorsement of vast numbers of total plonkers brainwashed by propaganda is what has put Assange in danger of his life

          • Morrissey 7.1.2.1.2
            9 April 2020 at 10:43 am

            What do you mean when you put the word "torture" in scare quotes? Are you pretending that he is not being tortured? Is that another of your jokes?

            I urge other Standard readers to bear in mind The Al1en's sneering contempt for Assange and compare his behaviour to that of the United Nations' Rapporteur on Torture….

            https://www.republik.ch/2020/01/31/nils-melzer-about-wikileaks-founder-julian-assange

            • The Al1en 7.1.2.1.2.1
              9 April 2020 at 10:48 am

              The Standard readers are free to bear in mind whatever they want about me, be that my alleged sneering contempt, or whatever else takes their fancy.

              It's all good.

              • Morrissey …
                9 April 2020 at 11:06 am

                No, it's not "all good." Your sneering contempt for this suffering dissident is not "alleged", it's there for posterity.

                You've condemned yourself, and your flippant words now can't make it go away.

                • The Al1en …
                  9 April 2020 at 11:08 am

                  Yep, it's still all good, as am I.

                  • Morrissey …
                    9 April 2020 at 11:11 am

                    You're gasping. It's embarrassing.

                    sadno

                    • Morrissey …
                      9 April 2020 at 11:17 am

                      You keep saying that, but you have no ability to develop an argument. Why don't you cut your losses and go read a book or something?

                    • The Al1en …
                      9 April 2020 at 11:22 am

                      I'm not making an argument, I'm replying to your continued usage of logical fallacies, which is easy to do as you're well practiced and predictable with it.

                      The actual guts of the matter are:

                      Good job he's in solitary. – Turns out he's not being isolation 'tortured' anymore.

                      The convicted bail jumper didn't get bail. – No answer.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      9 April 2020 at 2:38 pm

                      Excerpts from a February 2020 report on the propaganda war against Assange. UN special rapporteur on torture Melzer "admits that he was himself initially taken in by the propaganda campaign."

                      "Four democratic countries joined forces – the U.S., Ecuador, Sweden and the UK – to leverage their power to portray one man as a monster so that he could later be burned at the stake without any outcry. The case is a huge scandal and represents the failure of Western rule of law. If Julian Assange is convicted, it will be a death sentence for freedom of the press."

                      "There is only a single explanation for everything – for the refusal to grant diplomatic assurances, for the refusal to question him in London: They wanted to apprehend him so they could extradite him to the U.S. The number of breaches of law that accumulated in Sweden within just a few weeks during the preliminary criminal investigation is simply grotesque."

                      https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO2002/S00093/un-special-rapporteur-on-torture-demolishes-the-fake-claims-targeting-julian-assange.htm

            • Adrian Thornton 7.1.2.1.2.2
              9 April 2020 at 11:02 am

              You are probably wasting your time on these subservient citizens here Morrissey, they are obviously just a bunch of wannta be camp guards only waiting for the opportunity to prove their worth to their masters, quite disgusting and vile.

              • Morrissey …
                9 April 2020 at 11:08 am

                Thanks for those kind words, Adrian. Much appreciated.

                • te reo putake …
                  9 April 2020 at 11:29 am

                  They're not "kind words", Moz. Far from it, actually.

                  I'm devastated that your normally astute and utterly reliable analysis of the written word has deserted you on this occasion.

                  I blame The Al1en for making you angry 😉

                  ps, Cheam is a very pleasant London suburb, particularly the Eastern portion around the railway cutting.

    • JanM 8.1
      9 April 2020 at 11:24 am

      Yes it's a beauty isn't it? I think he's in mourning lol

    • Ad 8.2
      9 April 2020 at 12:33 pm

      Someone here needs to do a decent response to Trotter.

      Hey Mr Trotter try this out:

      1. New Zealand now has the most effective democratic socialist government in the entire fucking world Mr Trotter. Best led, best communicated, best response through the public health system, best deployment of policing and social enforcement. And it's not me saying it.

      So fuck off with your "thoughts" on democratic socialism. We already have it.

      2. This government has just embarked on the largest Keynsean expansion since the Depression, and is going to keep expanding through the May 8th 2020 budget, and through the campaign manifesto, and through the 2021 budget.

      The state is going into tens of billions of debt on new projects, is propping up every single waged person with a business who asks for it, and we are now a month away from even more largesse in the budget.

      So fuck off with your "… but not yet!"

      3. There is a gobsmacking irony of a blogger begging for a lifeline for a physical print of the Listener, when his own personal blog is now the only place the Trotter's own writing is published anywhere. Trotter's own practise of publishing online from many years ago is the clearest evidence that he knew this day was coming and planned for the demise of printed commentary years ago.

      If Trotter wanted to he could amass his analogue leftie comrades and buy the Listener masthead from the receivers. But that's won't happen because he's all mouth and no trousers.

      And while we are at it, the government is already well underway to strengthen broadcasting under Fa'afoi's plan for RNZ and TVNZ. They are well and truly doing their part already.

      So fuck off with your defence of The Listener.

      4. Trotter needs to get it out of his head that the government reaction to this recession is going to look the same as the Labour response to the 1930s Depression. That he can't step out of his tragedian pyre and lead something practical in society other than perpetually interviewing his typewriter and adding poorly paralleled historical anecdote, shows how deeply stale his imagination really is.

      5. This government is holding the whole of the political order, the whole of society, and the whole of the economy, together right now, through sheer will and debt. They are about to get us through the virus crisis in better health shape than any other developed nation on earth. Overseas commentators are already noticing.

      So we can afford to give them a smidgen of a break as we await coherence on the plan to revive our economy.

      • pat 8.2.1
        9 April 2020 at 12:46 pm

        "If Trotter wanted to he could amass his analogue leftie comrades and buy the Listener masthead from the receivers. But that's won't happen because he's all mouth and no trousers."

        Funny you should suggest that, I was wondering why he hadnt proposed the staff purchasing it for the dollar (potential liabilities aside) and running it as a collective (or co operative)…the existing staff would be the best placed to judge its future viability an could potentially secure both their ongoing employment and maintain an independent voice but havnt seen anyone involved propose such.

        • Ad 8.2.1.1
          9 April 2020 at 12:48 pm

          It still had 30,00 subscribers apparently.

          [lprent: 32,000 from memory. ]

          • pat 8.2.1.1.1
            9 April 2020 at 12:58 pm

            If the staff and management dont see a future path to sustainability why would anyone else

            • Sam 8.2.1.1.1.1
              9 April 2020 at 1:42 pm

              thats why command dosnt suit you

              [On 26 July 2019, Sam wrote these memorable words:

              I had intended for the conversation I had with Adam and McFlock in last nights [sic] daily review to be my last and still intend to.

              Link: https://thestandard.org.nz/protect-ihumatao/#comment-1640435.

              He now seems to think that he can return here from his self-imposed exile with a blatant troll comment.

              Sam is wrong about that.

              Banned for a year so that we can all recover from the pandemic and prepare for the election without having to endure his inane troll comments that create more work for Moderators – Incognito]

          • lprent 8.2.1.1.2
            9 April 2020 at 3:21 pm

            It [The Listener] still had 30,00 subscribers apparently.

            Subscribers really isn't that useful as a measure of utility. Certainly not a measure of how much it is valued by the public for whom it is purportedly doing good.

            Consider this site as an alternative ‘risk free rate’ for taxpayers and look at the usage – which is our only measure of subscribers.

            According to google analytics this site has had ~23k unique visitors in the last 30 days in ~89k sessions. This excludes almost all of the bots and because it is google has a fairly accurate idea about who is a person even when they jump machines (as I do all of the time)`.

            ~57k of those sessions were from users who entered the site with more than 15 times over 30 days – ie reading on average about every two days or better on average. ~31k sessions were from users who read the site more than 201 times over that 30 days.About ~26k of the sessions were from users who entered less than 5 times or less.

            Average session duration is 6:32 and average pages per session is 3.84. Once you start figuring out the probable times that some people on here, then there is clearly a *lot* of utility.

            The last 30 days was up about 1/6th above our recent median. Session times and page counts are slightly elevated.

            That was done with a far more amateur level level of writing, no subscription to the site, we don't inflict advertising, and the commenters provide as much writing value as the authors.

            Arguably even with all of the low rent comments and the provocative authors, that is a shit load of writing on here. I'd expect that it is of far more volume than The Listener.

            The Listener really has to argue on the basis of the quality of its writing.

            Quality – who knows? I personally haven't read one in some time – but it hasn't improved much beyond the mostly 'I reckons' writing that we do in blogs, or is common in the daily media, or even around reddit.

            Sure there were always nuggets in the mix of waffle. But they weren't worth effort of finding the paper copy, paying for it, and reading it without the opportunity to comment. I certainly wouldn't want to pay for it as taxpayer even when I last read it.

            It provided me with no value. If I want to subsidize writers then personally I'd prefer to pay for this ad-free venue – which is mostly what happens. I think that it is of more benefit to many of the people here.

            I wouldn't mind being able to subsidizing journalists more. All they have to do is to have it all easily online, largely dump the advertising, separate the opinionists away from the journalism (the former is ideal as a filtered pay per read), and let me subscribe just to the journalism.

            Problem is that is very hard to get in NZ media outside of a few mail feeds.

            • Incognito 8.2.1.1.2.1
              9 April 2020 at 3:37 pm

              My summary: we’re doing ok but there’s always room for improvement here on TS 😉

              • lprent …
                9 April 2020 at 3:54 pm

                And IMHO the Listener was not.

                The writing here might be rough as (especially when I write), but in terms of the value that you pay for it is extremely valuable.

                For me, I'm happy to spend money for reading material that is better than what we have here. But I didn't feel any sense of value in any of the Baur stable of magazines to outweigh the cost. A different editorial policy may have produced a better material. But they basically needed to change their business model even more – and showed no real signs of doing that.

                Can't see a reasons to subsidize them more than any other business as there are others around that market place. The wage subsidy should have been enough to keep them viable if they’d had a business model that would work in the future – which they didn’t. That looks to have been the conclusion of Bauer.

                • Incognito …
                  9 April 2020 at 4:12 pm

                  I love it when I read a truly good piece written by a true professional. It’s the same with music, art, or science. When I need to dig too deep and too hard to find that rare gem, it’s not worth my money and even less so my time – actually, I have to work for my money so it all comes down to my time, which I don’t have as much of as I’d like 🙁

                  Indeed, a good editor is like a good conductor: worth their weight in gold; they can work miracles and turn things into gold but equally, they can fuck up things and turn things to custard.

      • Morrissey 8.2.2
        9 April 2020 at 1:14 pm

        Good reply to the insufferable Trotter—except for the confidence expressed in Chris Fa'afoi. He's an incompetent minister, if ever there was one.

      • In Vino 8.2.3
        9 April 2020 at 7:30 pm

        Edit – this got shunted down the list while I was writing it.
        I am replying to Ad at 8.2

        As a reader of the Listener since the 1970s, I am not entirely convinced by you, Ad.

        1) If our system is best in the world, the standard is not very high. Other countries with far greater population density (meaning far more infections) seem to have done better. And you may be counting chickens that have not yet hatched.

        2) Partly true, but only in its infancy, and I hope that the Govt has the courage to continue in this vein. Especially if the Righties start criticising this policy, as they will.

        3) That is not irony – I see it more as Trotter lamenting the Listener's earlier role. I also remember the Listener and the Auckland Star being the only printed vehicles of real criticism of the disastrous Vietnam War.. There is a lot to be lamented since the Listener got swallowed by the right-wing marketers.

        4) Maybe Trotter still has a vision of real social reform, whereas you don't. Or you don't show it very often. Blairite?

        5) Fully agree, but one out of five is far from convinced.

        I suspect that Trotter is afraid that after we have succeeded in starting to look for coherence on the plan to revive our economy, it will be too late to do any serious social reform.

        Ad – do you want any serious social reform?

        I am struggling to understand why you are so hostile to Trotter.

      • aj 8.2.4
        9 April 2020 at 10:17 pm

        I second every single word of your comment, Ad

    • Brigid 8.3
      9 April 2020 at 1:07 pm

      I can't see that Chris has 'melted down' with this statement though:

      "According to Andrew Little’s former Chief-of-Staff, Neale Jones:

      “I cannot think of a worse time to implement a UBI than in the middle of this economic crisis. Some of us are doing fine. Others need unprecedented government support just to stay afloat. UBI would spread that support thinner, or quickly spend 10s of billions we may need later."

      Meaning Neale has no grasp at all of Keynesian economics. No understanding of the crucial importance of keeping up the level of aggregate demand. No historical grasp of the crucial role spending plays in lifting a nation out of an economic slump. Nor does he understand the practical and moral efficiency of universal, as opposed to means-tested, state support. The massively positive effect of telling every Kiwi: ‘You are important in your own right, not because you’re in need of charity but because you are a citizen of New Zealand.’ Everyone keeps telling us that “we’re all in this together” – a UBI would prove it."

      " How did dreary pragmatism become Labour’s default-setting? A full explanation would require a book-length answer. Suffice to say that once a party embraces the fundamental tenets of neoliberalism, anything other than orthodox and cautious policy responses will be treated as the political equivalent of upending a can of petrol over your head and striking a match."

      It seems to me that someone (the janitor – it's always the janitor) changed Labour's label to 'socialist' while everyone was at morning tea and no one has the courage to change it back, while the majority of them has no courage either to enact real socialism.

      I wonder if Jacinda is banging her head against her desk at the 'dreary pragmatism' that pervades the party. I wonder.

      Although perhaps it is the fact that since the 1980s Labour has become a centrist party with neo liberal leanings and that's all there is to it.

      Oh well.

      • pat 8.3.1
        9 April 2020 at 1:09 pm

        isnt a collective real socialism?

        • lprent 8.3.1.1
          9 April 2020 at 3:38 pm

          Collective is implicitly shared agreement. When it is mandated by those for whom it is convenient it just becomes coercion.

          Problem is that I fail to see a point in subsiding a stable of publications that with massive cost-cutting producing what looked like a inaccessible mediocre product and barely managing to hold a subscriber base or a profit level is worth trying to save.

          In an economic sense you could easily argue that their mere presence in the marketplace was actually constraining innovation in a failing area. They were holding on to audiences and thereby preventing development of a more viable economic model. As a government, you’d be better off using resources to provide technical infrastructure for writers to try to find a more useful model to build a viable and accessible product in. There are examples around like Newsroom, Spinoff, Evening Report, and even Scoop as well as the online mass media.

          Because in the end, unless they figured out a different way to operate, then all of those magazines had been on a ventilator ready to die of technical obsolescence in the market for about a decade. Removing their Bauer DNR wouldn’t have made them last for many more years even if there wasn’t a pandemic at the same time.

          • pat 8.3.1.1.1
            9 April 2020 at 3:40 pm

            dont disagree with that but my point was Mr Trotter was bemoaning a lack of socialism and ignored the most socialist response

            • lprent 8.3.1.1.1.1
              9 April 2020 at 3:56 pm

              Yeah – there are number of fully or semi cooperatives already in that space (as I pointed to). They just don't pay much.

              • pat …
                9 April 2020 at 3:58 pm

                no i dont imagine they do…and it would be interesting to be a fly on the wall should the staff ever attempt it….I could imagine it wouldnt go smoothly.

    • Bearded Git 8.4
      10 April 2020 at 5:27 am

      Trotter doesn't understand economics, or pretends not to. Buying these magazines for a dollar sounds cheap until the losses start to mount. I think he is emotionally attached to the titles and can't bear to see them go.

      If there is a profitable market for a right-wing (but pretending not to be) glossy like the Listener, a new magazine will be set-up by somebody using their own money.

      It's not the government's job to invest in/take over the media-accusations of manipulation for political ends would follow like night follows day.

  9. pat 9
    9 April 2020 at 10:15 am

    Speaking to relatives in Aussie last night , one of whom works for a large retailer (who shall remain unnamed) and the relating of how the social distancing and 'lockdown' is being handled there is an object lesson in why we are correct to minimise the number of retailers that are able to trade.

    The complete disregard for the guidelines from both the company and the general public makes a mockery of the process.

    • The Al1en 9.1
      9 April 2020 at 6:44 pm

      Couldn't believe it at pak n save today, waiting in the queue at the checkout, using the marked lines as a distancing guide, and people were pushing their trolleys between the gaps left behind me, completely ruining the purpose of having the lines in the first place. I told a floor supervisor that I realised it's not up to her to police it, but that particular part of the system was broken.

      Didn't help that the customer in front of me took out a wad of notes and proceeded to lick his fingers, twice, whilst thumbing through them, and then again before touching the eftpos card he part paid with. Had to warn the checkout kid before she touched this idiot's cash, and patiently waited until she had decontaminated it and the terminal before I could check out, contemplating survival of the fittest v stupid by association.

      • pat 9.1.1
        9 April 2020 at 6:48 pm

        and pales in comparison in both scale and actions related to me about Victoria last night….Im very pleased our Gov appears to be holding the line as staunchly as it is in the face of considerable pressure

        • The Al1en 9.1.1.1
          9 April 2020 at 6:53 pm

          Generally I've been impressed with the supermarkets down here, but then I've been able to time my runs really well, to have shopped at the slowest of times. Today, I had to risk the one day closed hoarders, so maybe the mentality of customers and staff were a bit less focused than of late, especially with the drop off in new cases. Let's hope complacency doesn't creep in and ruin all the good work thus far.

  10. A 10
    9 April 2020 at 10:36 am

    UN Council for Human Rights – China now on the council.

    Unbelievable.

    Countries with a seat on the council get to oversee and appoint representatives who in turn investigate + report on human rights abuses.

    Other council members with this influence include Somalia, Saudi Arabia, Cuba, Egypt, Nigeria, Venezula, Lybia…more here https://qz.com/1418293/what-countries-are-on-the-un-human-rights-council/

    • RedLogix 10.1
      9 April 2020 at 3:52 pm

      A den of thieves put in charge of the bank. This is the problem when you select for 'equitable representation' than competency.

      • aom 10.1.1
        9 April 2020 at 4:52 pm

        I thought you generally made sure you were better informed RedLogix. 'A' has reeled off an out of date hit-job and stupidly highlighted China which is not on the Council. Besides, the representatives on the Council are not appointed to represent their countries or any political viewpoint, unlike the Cato Institute or Quartz.

  11. Barry Hardhat 11
    9 April 2020 at 10:52 am

    Two weeks till Business as Usual reconvenes, woohoo!

    Government sanctioned "mental illness" will be forgotten, and Cognitive Dissonance in all things will be the name of the game. Project your fears onto anyone weaker than you and aim to take it all!

    Hot Tip: don't get caught on the line when the starter pistol fires, not unless you are ready to slash your way through anyone you meet.

    • AB 11.1
      9 April 2020 at 11:42 am

      Totally – I'm devising a method to gouge the newly-unemployed. Awesome eh? Can't wait.

    • Incognito 11.2
      9 April 2020 at 3:41 pm

      Domestic tourism = landlords and AirBnB are rubbing their hands with glee. Shame that many campsites have turned into mini- wannabe-Omahas.

  12. AB 12
    9 April 2020 at 11:09 am

    I'm feeling lucky to be the recipient of good fortune in several ways. These are: NZ's isolation, a generally competent government that aims to serve the interests of all its citizens not just some, and enough social cohesion to voluntarily observe a lock-down with high levels of compliance. (There are a few peripheral sociopaths like Mike Hosking but that is to be expected)

    Therefore I'm not really faced with the fear and rage that clearly prompted this piece from the fabulously civilised RJ Eskow a couple of weeks ago – No – I will not die for this damned economy. He used the word 'damned' advisedly – not as a mere expletive, but in the Biblical sense "this damned economy…and we, the damned who live within it." What we need to emerge from this crisis is an economy that does not damn so many – the odds are we will get one which damns more.

  13. Carolyn_Nth 13
    9 April 2020 at 11:21 am

    FFS! David Seymour is asking, at the Epidemic committee, why employers including sole traders in receipt of wage subsidies get named publicly, but sole parents etc in receipt of benefits are not publicly named! At about 1hr 15 minutes into the committee today.

    I think Sepuloni also said there is a box to tick asking if employer agrees to be named publicly when applying for a subsidy.

  14. Carolyn_Nth 14
    9 April 2020 at 11:54 am

    We had some debate about this early on in level 4.

    It has now been announced that WOF's, regos and licenses that expired after Jan 1st have been extended for essential travel.

    The Government is extending expired or expiring licenses and Warrants of Fitness to enable essential travel.

    Transport Minister Phil Twyford said all driver licences, WoFs, CoFs, and some vehicle certifications, that expired on or after January 1, 2020 would now be valid for up to six months from April 10, 2020.

    • weka 14.1
      9 April 2020 at 12:01 pm

      so someone with an expired rego or wof can use their car to drive to the supermarket?

      Has NZTA shut down?

      • Ad 14.1.1
        9 April 2020 at 12:12 pm

        No, their regulatory team just have more pressing things to attend to.

        • weka 14.1.1.1
          9 April 2020 at 12:14 pm

          so we can still get a rego online and via NZPost?

          • Ad 14.1.1.1.1
            9 April 2020 at 12:16 pm

            Are NZPost places still open?

            I wouldn't expect quick service, and as the Minister has pointed out, it's unnecessary.

            • weka 14.1.1.1.1.1
              9 April 2020 at 12:27 pm

              You can order a rego online, doesn't need to be at a Post Shop. Post is still being delivered as far as I can tell. I was just curious if that part of NZTA was still operational or not.

              • Sabine …
                9 April 2020 at 12:46 pm

                in order to get a rego you need a wof.

                in order to get a wof you need to go to a testing station.

                so essentially to me it means if you can get a rego because your wof is still valid, go online, get it.

                if you need a wof first, don't worry, you can still drive without getting a huge ticket.

              • Alice Tectonite …
                9 April 2020 at 12:54 pm

                Yes, regos still being issued:

                Drivers are still encouraged to licence their vehicle on-line where possible.

                NZTA media release 9 April

      • Carolyn_Nth 14.1.2
        9 April 2020 at 12:21 pm

        Looks like it means private vehicles used by essential workers, or general members of the public using their cars to access essential services.

        It also looks like there is some vehicle WOF renewals for essential business vehicles.

        Where can I go to renew my WoF/CoF if I am providing an essential service and it is expiring during Alert Level 4?Back to top

        You can renew your WoF/CoF at several vehicle inspection sites around the country (see links below) or check with your local provider if they are available on an appointment only basis.

        Please note that at all locations, there are requirements you need to follow for an essential vehicle inspection to be carried out

        I don’t work for an essential service, my vehicle WoF/CoF is due for renewal and I need to get groceries. Can I keep using my vehicle since testing stations and garages are shut?Back to top

        To help smooth the transition back to compliance, if your WoF/CoF expired on or after 1 January 2020, it is temporarily extended.

        See also at ATA.

        The Stuff article I linked to in my previous comment says:

        It'll still be up to drivers to keep their vehicles safe and I urge owners to follow the NZ Transport Agency's advice and regularly self-check their vehicle." The Government was allowing for essential repairs, like sorting out punctured tyres or damaged windscreens. Previously only essential service workers' vehicles could access repairs and certification services. Other people are only able to get critical repairs done for the purpose of accessing essential services. "If anything looks out of order, please go get it fixed as soon as you can," Twyford said.

  15. Poission 15
    9 April 2020 at 2:42 pm

    Wimbledon and the precautionary principle.

    https://twitter.com/darrenrovell/status/1247933676874334208

  16. observer 16
    9 April 2020 at 2:43 pm

    Over the past couple of weeks various voices have said "Let's be Sweden"!

    Latest: Sweden 696 deaths. New Zealand 1.

  17. McFlock 17
    9 April 2020 at 3:31 pm

    Fuck, I love NZ.

    Ministry of health tweet on exercise in isolation. Informative and funny.

  18. ianmac 18
    9 April 2020 at 3:32 pm

    Some have been published on media for not hearing the result of their tests for many days afterwards. The explanation includes the fact that results are fed back to whoever authorised the test such as the doctor.

    If the test is positive the victim is informed straight away and followup action taken.

    If the result is negative then the lesser urgency will be in the hands of the doctor to inform. Maybe too busy but must be anxious wait for the victim though the longer the wait the more likely all is well.

    • I Feel Love 18.1
      10 April 2020 at 7:29 am

      Heh, just like when you get tested for STDs, if you all clear you usually don't get notified (check your online hub thing), only if you positive will they be in touch (& not a call you want, obviously).

  19. joe90 19
    9 April 2020 at 4:21 pm

    So closing down flights from China didn’t save thousands of lives.

    Coronavirus in New York came mainly from Europe, studies show.

    New research indicates that the coronavirus began to circulate in the New York area by mid-February, weeks before the first confirmed case, and that it was brought to the region mainly by travelers from Europe, not Asia.

    “The majority is clearly European,” said Harm van Bakel, a geneticist at Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai, who co-wrote a study awaiting peer review.

    A separate team at N.Y.U. Grossman School of Medicine came to strikingly similar conclusions, despite studying a different group of cases. Both teams analyzed genomes from coronaviruses taken from New Yorkers starting in mid-March.

    http://archive.li/Ek2U9 (nyt)

  20. Macro 20
    9 April 2020 at 5:25 pm

    Latest graph of modelling for CV19 shows just what NZ has avoided:

    No metadatahttps://www.rnz.co.nz/news/covid-19/413885/lockdown-could-eliminate-covid-19-new-nz-research

    There could have been hundreds more cases of Covid-19 in New Zealand already if a lockdown had not gone ahead, new modelling shows.

    Instead, the country now has a high chance of eliminating the virus, the research says – but only if the level 4 restrictions are extended.

    Te Pūnaha Matatini, a cluster of researchers from Landcare Research and the Universities of Auckland and Canterbury, has been working for more than a month on modelling the spread of the virus here.

    The total number of active Covid-19 cases in New Zealand has stalled over the past four days, hovering between 920 and 930 cases.

    Additionally, the Ministry of Health reported 29 new cases of Covid-19 today – the lowest number of new cases over a 24-hour period in a fortnight.

    The paper published by Te Pūnaha Matatini today showed that had the government not gone into a level four lockdown, the number of new cases each day would exceed 150 by now, rising to 350 a day by the middle of next week.

  21. alwyn 21
    9 April 2020 at 6:08 pm

    "Coronavirus: Greenkeepers granted exemption for maintenance work after Easter"

    And about bloody time. Golf Greens and Bowling Greens can be destroyed and take years to recreate if they aren't very carefully maintained. Why did it need Grant Robertson to do the bloody obvious. You don't need to allow people to play but a green keeper can work in isolation and preserve the painstakingly cared for lawns.

    They are far more fragile and harder to repair than most Council owned parks and sports grounds. Mowing of those seems to have been allowed throughout.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/golf/120948493/coronavirus-greenkeepers-fume-as-jacinda-ardern-defends-delay-in-exemption-request

    • bwaghorn 21.1
      9 April 2020 at 6:24 pm

      You know the government is doing a great job when rich rightwing fuckwits can only find golf greens to attack them about.

      • alwyn 21.1.1
        9 April 2020 at 6:41 pm

        Your KDS is showing. He plays golf doesn't he?

        The membership of the average golf club is quite typical of the whole New Zealand population. And New Zealand is one of the cheapest places to play golf in the world. A full playing membership at Inglewood, which is a pretty little course near New Plymouth is only about $500/year. The Waitara Golf Club, also near New Plymouth is even cheaper at $350/year.

        Royal Wellington and Royal Auckland and Grange excluded of course.

        Do't be such a bigoted little prat.

        • In Vino 21.1.1.1
          9 April 2020 at 7:51 pm

          Tut tut, alwyn. I sail, and my yearly sub is only $120. I probably spend less on my boat (which I bought with trailer for $2,500 in 1987) than you spend on clubs and lost golf balls (sorry to be rude.)

          Your altruistic concern for the well-being of golfing greens is rather amusing.

          But there we are. I get mad when stupid but well-meaning people plant trees near the lake I sail on, and ruin the wind after the tree has grown.

          • alwyn 21.1.1.1.1
            9 April 2020 at 8:44 pm

            $2,500! For a boat? It sounds as if you bought one of Paul Allen's cast offs.

            I am, I admit, an unusual golfer (or should I say a former golfer). I played for about 48 years and only ever owned two sets of clubs. I bought the first set in the late 60's for the grand sum of $100. The second set was purchased in about 1996 for rather more, but I would still be under the cost of your boat. Golf balls are quite cheap. You can get perfectly suitable golf balls for about $2.00 each.

            https://www.golfwarehouse.nz/collections/golf-balls/products/srixonad333whitegolfballsv8-4dozen

            Most people I know spent rather more. Almost every golfer lives with the dream that if they buy the latest driver they will be able to hit their drives out to about the 280 metre mark. I was always a realist. I might have admired the skills of Jack Nicklaus and Tiger Woods but I was never under the illusion that I could play like them.

            • In Vino 21.1.1.1.1.1
              9 April 2020 at 10:03 pm

              Aye, and I am foolishly still trying to sail a teenager's one-man racing skiff, because when I get a few good rides, it beats being on every big expensive lead-swinging keelboat that ever sailed.

              As a matter of interest, what were your average subs for belonging to a club?

              • alwyn …
                9 April 2020 at 11:43 pm

                I sailed a P class when I was very young. In my 20's we bought a Javelin. That was great fun, although we always thought we should fly the letter flag "D" when we were out. For those who don't sail it means "Keep clear of me; I am maneuvering with difficulty".

                I had to give up playing 5 years ago so my knowledge of subs is a bit out of date..

                When I was a child I had a dose of a much nastier virus than Cofid 19. It appeared I had fully recovered from it but it turns out you never do. About half the people like me get problems many years later and my walking was affected so I gave up playing. I believe a full playing membership at the last club I belonged to is about $1250/year. You can play all day, every day of the year for that. That would be typical of city clubs I should say.

        • bwaghorn 21.1.1.2
          9 April 2020 at 8:54 pm

          I was thinking more of you bringing petty nitpicking shit here. The government was made aware there was a problem and rightly assessed that a green keeper can probably work alone safely.

          My patience has run out with pathetic moaning morons .

          • alwyn 21.1.1.2.1
            9 April 2020 at 11:44 pm

            Self loathing must be a terrible affliction. My sympathy for your suffering.

      • Gabby 21.1.2
        10 April 2020 at 12:18 am

        Aren't poor people allowed to play golf? Far canal.

    • weka 21.2
      9 April 2020 at 7:06 pm

      Have any golf courses or bowling greens been destroyed thus far? If not, what's the problem? Lots of people are waiting to get their privileges back, it takes time for processes to be worked through.

      • Robert Guyton 21.2.1
        10 April 2020 at 7:23 am

        Golf courses, bowling greens, rugby fields and other expanses of manicured lawn are ring-worm patches on the body of Mother Earth smiley

        • weka 21.2.1.1
          10 April 2020 at 12:28 pm

          Lol. I still like to lie on my lawn, and I can see the potential of permaculture cricket pitches and rugby fields. But holy shit, there's a reason there are no organic golf courses. I'm guessing bowling greens might be similar?

  22. joe90 22
    9 April 2020 at 6:47 pm

    Thirty seconds in tRump says that he wants the US economy to collapse.

    https://twitter.com/gaslitnation/status/1237785570815938560

  24. joe90 24
    9 April 2020 at 7:34 pm

    If Singapore can't keep this under control then I doubt we'll be ending lockdown anytime soon.

    https://twitter.com/ChorzempaMartin/status/1247893963639386117

    • In Vino 24.1
      9 April 2020 at 7:52 pm

      ulp

    • Adrian 24.2
      9 April 2020 at 8:46 pm

      I understood that Singapore was initialy relying on phone apps and the internet to do a lot of the tracing work and they found out a bit too late that it wasn't very successful, as Dr Bloomfield said a few days ago a phone can't do the job that a thorough face to face ( at 2 metres I presume ) interview can. Just exactly how many crimes would be solved with a little chat on line or a few texts. Sweet fuck all.

    • Macro 24.3
      9 April 2020 at 9:35 pm

      I think Singapore tried to move too quickly and were reliant on the phone technology. Furthermore being an island about the size of Lake Taupo and with over 5m people isolating is far more difficult. I'm not sure just what restrictions they have in place wrt new arrivals, but a large proportion of their workforce in terms of amah, and construction workers are from the Philippines, India, and Malaysia.

  25. ScottGN 25
    9 April 2020 at 7:57 pm

    Well this is interesting. Overseas buyer’s interest in the Pacifica apartment building is up 200% because of favourable reaction to the government’s Covid-19 response. Both expats and foreign buyers (this development has an exemption for foreign buyers) have registered an interest.

    https://www.oneroof.co.nz/news/37795

  27. pat 27
    9 April 2020 at 8:22 pm

    It appears that there is some appetite to change the paradigm….Kate Raworth style

    "The port of Amsterdam is the world’s single largest importer of cocoa beans, mostly from west Africa, where the labour is often highly exploitative.

    As an independent private company it could reject such products and take the economic hit, but at the same time almost one in five households in Amsterdam qualify for social benefits due to low incomes and savings.

    Van Doorninck says the port is looking at how it moves on from dependence on fossil fuels as part of the city’s new vision, and she expects that to naturally evolve into a wider debate over other pressing dilemmas brought to the forefront by the doughnut model.

    “It gives space to talk about whether you want to be the place where products are being stored that are produced by child labour or by other forms of labour exploitation,” she says."

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/08/amsterdam-doughnut-model-mend-post-coronavirus-economy

  28. joe90 28
    9 April 2020 at 10:02 pm

    This is outright malice.

    https://twitter.com/npratc/status/1247988083376549888

    WASHINGTON — Although President Donald Trump has directed states and hospitals to secure what supplies they can, the federal government is quietly seizing orders, leaving medical providers across the country in the dark about where the material is going and how they can get what they need to deal with the coronavirus pandemic.

    Hospital and clinic officials in seven states described the seizures in interviews over the past week. The Federal Emergency Management Agency is not publicly reporting the acquisitions, despite the outlay of millions of dollars of taxpayer money, nor has the administration detailed how it decides which supplies to seize and where to reroute them.

    Officials who've had materials seized also say they've received no guidance from the government about how or if they will get access to the supplies they ordered. That has stoked concerns about how public funds are being spent and whether the Trump administration is fairly distributing scarce medical supplies

    https://www.adn.com/nation-world/2020/04/08/hospitals-across-us-say-feds-are-seizing-masks-and-other-coronavirus-supplies-without-a-word/

  29. Forget now 29
    9 April 2020 at 11:13 pm

    This looks like good news (haven't typed that phrase in a while!):

    https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanrhe/article/PIIS2665-9913(20)30092-8/fulltext

    It's based on unpublished data, so has to be taken with a chunk of salt. But, if; the IL6 cytokine is predominantly involved in SARS-COV-2 pneumonia, then an IL6 receptor blocker being of use in preventing that, does make a certain amount of sense on the face of it.

    After all, it doesn't really matter if people are infected with the Crow, just so long as you can stop them suffocating on their own body!

    Except that the more replications of a virus, the more chances for mutations. DNA is more stable than RNA.