Open mike 09/07/2024

48 comments on “Open mike 09/07/2024 ”

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1. Bearded Git 1

   9 July 2024 at 7:08 am

   I watched the first hour of the Biden -Trump debate-it was all that I could stomach.

   It was clear that Biden is no longer viable as a candidate. The polls have started to move against him. Democrats who aren't convinced of Biden's fitness to serve for 4 more years (and assuming they hate Trump) can vote for Kennedy who (incredibly) is polling 10%, or they can not vote at all. Trump will almost certainly win.

   The easiest way out of this mess is to replace Biden with Kamala Harris. She is smart, female, black, youngish and (as explained in the link) is a viable candidate who would inherit Biden's war chest.

   https://www.semafor.com/article/07/05/2024/replacing-biden-how-it-would-work
2. Ad 2

   9 July 2024 at 8:11 am

   Part bad luck part poor judgement, but when you've had 40% of your MPs changed without warning, you're in poor shape:

   – Elizabeth Kerekere

   – Efeso Collins

   – Golriz Gharaman

   – James Shaw

   – Darleen Tana

   Labour and the Greens are just a long way from being a coherent opposition when we need them to be. Shape up Greens.
   • gsays 2.1

     9 July 2024 at 8:28 am

     The reasons for 3 of them are disheartening (Gharaman, Kerekere and Tana).

     Sure no other party is pure, but the self interest of these three …

     This not a lazy kick a team when they are down, it's a genuine desire for them become worth voting for.

     Candidates with some proven service to community or organisation.
     • Ad 2.1.1

       9 July 2024 at 9:01 am

       Peters is showing there's no mercy and will use all he can to keep the Greens down. Act are doing the same every chance. But this is now in the hands of the Green caucus to get out of. The Greens will get pecked to death like a herd of ducks if this drags out this week.
       • gsays 2.1.1.1

         9 July 2024 at 9:20 am

         I can see a few tensions at play.

         The push and pull between the need for experience and electability (Shaw) vs appeasing the youth activist base (Kerikeri?).

         Plus the social justice vs environmental strand.

         Does anyone have Eugenie Sage's number?
     • Grey Area 2.1.2

       9 July 2024 at 9:19 am

       Candidates with some proven service to community or organisation.

       Indeed. I am a GP member and wonder sometimes about the motivations of some of the people on the party's list.

       I also wonder if some gain their higher list rankings through their profile within the party, rather that the community.
     • Bearded Git 2.1.3

       9 July 2024 at 10:50 am

       The Kerekere matter was two and a half years ago now. How far are we going back here? Let’s list all the Labour and National scandals during this period too.

       The Gharaman issue was brought on by a combination of MS and severe depression brought on by venal public and social media attacks (similar to Jacinda's resignation).

       That really only leaves the Tana issue. She should resign from parliament.

       Personally (as a Green voter) I have never understood why the Greens have been so opposed to the Waka bill. It is there so that the make up of parliament continues to reflect voting intentions. This is the perfect time to use it-they should approach the speaker, allowing him only to see the report in relation to Tana's behaviour in confidence and get her chucked out.
       • Grey Area 2.1.3.1

         9 July 2024 at 11:29 am

         My comment was about list candidate motivations and experience generally and the ranking process (which I understand) rather than than specifically about Tana or other scandals.

         As for the waka-jumping issue I has always believed that if a list MP resigns from their party they at the same time should resign from parliament. The only reason they are there is because of MMP and being on their party's list. Because of this I supported it at the time it was being discussed within the Greens.

         I have also been uncomfortable with electorate MPs becoming independents. They should resign and stand in a by-election and see if their electorate still wants them to represent them.
         • Bearded Git 2.1.3.1.1

           9 July 2024 at 11:45 am

           Yes agreed Grey.
       • weka 2.1.3.2

         9 July 2024 at 12:41 pm

         it's because of the democracy kaupapa. The party shouldn't be deciding who is in parliament, the voters do that, and Tana was already voted in.

         I agree that she should resign as an MP though, she's an idiot if she doesn't.
         • Bearded Git 2.1.3.2.1

           9 July 2024 at 12:59 pm

           I disagree with that Weka…Tana was only voted in on the coat-tails of the Green Party.

           Oddly I agree with Winston and not you where he says the Greens should use the Waka legislation…I guess it had to happen one day.
           • Dennis Frank 2.1.3.2.1.1

             9 July 2024 at 1:19 pm

             Yeah, hard not to agree, but seems like the thing hinges on the issue of natural justice – Tana made that point earlier and the Greens also see it from their perspective according to this report: https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/115-days-green-mp-darleen-tana-spends-half-her-political-career-suspended/QXJ2RQEMGVCM5PDXPGL4H2Q66U/

             Everyone involved has been careful not to explain their angle on the natural justice in the situation. I presume that's because they all know democracy is served by ignoring the crux of a situation. After all, the public interest must be subordinated to the collective narcissism of the insiders.

             Asked why the investigation hadn’t yet concluded, Swarbrick noted how its terms of reference had been expanded following fresh allegations becoming public through media reporting.

             Clever politics here: shift the goal-posts, because it makes the game more interesting. Folks love it when politicians entertain them.
           • weka 2.1.3.2.1.2

             9 July 2024 at 2:05 pm

             I disagree with that Weka…Tana was only voted in on the coat-tails of the Green Party.

             She stood as a candidate, candidate campaigning impacts the party vote, the GP list is determined by the party members, and so on. It's not a coat tail, it's a core part of our electoral system.

             And I didn't say they were right or wrong, I pointed out why they haven't just tossed the principle.

             The main issue I have right now is that if they force her out they're changing their long term position substantially. And they risk being targeted for being hypocrites. I did like that Swarbrick mentioned that it would be something for the party to discuss not just the caucus.

             So not saying they shouldn't do it, just that there are good reasons on both sides
           • weka 2.1.3.2.1.3

             9 July 2024 at 2:15 pm

             also, because I am thinking through a post on this topic generally, no self respecting left wing party supports the taking away of people's job without due process. If the Greens want to change their position on waka jumping, there's a policy and position process to work through before someone changes their whole life to become an MP.

             And again, not saying they shouldn't do it now, but that it's not as straight forward as many seem to believe.

             Not that the Greens employ Tana. But too much of the left at the moment seems to think it's ok to just fire people.
             • James Simpson …

               9 July 2024 at 2:43 pm

               I have sympathy for what you are saying, but I don't see being an MP as a job. It is public service. Not employment.

               An MP is accountable to the public.

               Every election we get the choice of who is elected to serve us. I have never felt like I was firing someone if I voted for a candidate that is not the standing MP.

               I advocated for the Nats to be wiped out in 2020 and when it happened I didn't feel like I had fired anyone.
               • weka …

                 9 July 2024 at 4:23 pm

                 elections aren't hiring and firing though. That's different because everyone knows where they stand and there is no guarantee of getting the role.

                 Imagine if an MP was working class, had kids and no partner. Leaves their party on a matter of principle (a principle they were elected on), and thus loses their career and job and income all in on swoop. How do they live?

                 It's not about being an employee. It's about whether the left considers depriving someone of their livelihood to be ethical. Unfortunately too many on the left now think it is an ok thing to do if they don't like the person's politics.

                 Gross misconduct or illegal behaviour is a different matter.
                 • James Simpson …

                   10 July 2024 at 11:40 am

                   But that same working class MP still needs to stand for reelection. When they are voted out after 3 years, they lose "their career and job and income all in on[e] swoop. How do they live?"

                   The same as if they walked after 30 months.
                   • weka …

                     10 July 2024 at 12:27 pm

                     people can plan around an election. Depriving people of their income at short notice is hugely problematic from a leftist pov.
             • gsays …

               9 July 2024 at 5:37 pm

               "no self respecting left wing party supports the taking away of people's job without due process."

               That's a good point. On the other side of the scale is the alleged behaviour of exploiting vulnerable workers. Something that more and more occurs in left party's 'blind spot'.

               TBF it may be more accurate to describe it as a neo liberal issue as opposed to 'left'. Shameful none the less.

               By that I mean successive regimes allowing the Seasonal workers and more recently Little's Approved Employer Scheme (I forget it's official title) that had 40 migrant welders and truck drivers living in a 3 bedroom house with no income.
               • weka …

                 9 July 2024 at 6:01 pm

                 true, I should have said the (neo)liberal left.

                 If it turns out she knew that workers were being exploited then that would count as reason enough for her not to remain an MP. The Greens seem to be saying she did more than we are aware of currently, so who knows. But the people involved in the business, workers and others, all need due process too.
                 • weka …

                   9 July 2024 at 6:02 pm

                   I think it's my way of saying I don't think it's possible to be left and be ok with removing people's livelihoods over matters of belief (cf to Forstater case in the UK). Obviously there is more with the Tana case, but my general point was about waka jumping and why it's not cut and dried.
                   • Dennis Frank …

                     9 July 2024 at 6:30 pm

                     It's a good point & indeed the correct response to Winston on the issue. The Herald report I linked to earlier said she's been suspended for half of her political career at this point in time, but the lawyer the Greens put on the case has to do due diligence process – so just another case of lawyers taking way longer than anyone else to get a job done I guess…
                   • weka []

                     9 July 2024 at 7:13 pm

                     I think new evidence or complaints from workers came to light? and the investigation was extended.
             • Bearded Git …

               9 July 2024 at 5:39 pm

               The real problem is that if Tana had any scruples/principles she would resign from parliament immediately.

               Failing this, the Waka legislation is the only way to remove her.

               The alternative-to have her hanging around in parliament for over 2 years poisoning the atmosphere for the Greens is far worse than accusations of hypocrisy that will quickly be forgotten, particularly if Chloe argues "using the Waka legislation should not have been necessary but the party felt that in this one-off case we had no alternative given Tana's unfortunate refusal to resign from parliament".
               • weka …

                 9 July 2024 at 5:57 pm

                 yeah, agree with all that. She should definitely leave, very bad all round for her to stay, even for her I think.

                 It's also against Green Party kaupapa. The relationship has broken down so much, how could she be an MP with them even outside the party?
         • Michael Scott 2.1.3.2.2

           9 July 2024 at 1:41 pm

           I don't get why she should resign. It is alleged that her husbands business illegally hired staff and paid staff less than the minimum wage. So far there exist only allegations. The issue is yet to be tested in a court of law.

           Darleen says unfair and allegations unproven. Chloe says you need to go. None of us has seen the report.
           • weka 2.1.3.2.2.1

             9 July 2024 at 2:08 pm

             from the GP's point of view, she did two things:

             1. she didn't declare the issues during the candidate selection, or after
             2. she then misled the leaders.

             Swarbrick has also said that her actions (undefined) fell well below what is ok for any MP. That's a third thing, harder to comment on until we see the report. But the first two, I see no reason to not believe the party on this, given they have read the report.

             I suspect that there are issues around how much she knew about what the business was doing, but again, we can't know unless the report is released.

             Tana is an idiot is she stays either way, unless maybe if she went to TPM, but honestly, why would you. Bad blood.
             • Michael Scott …

               9 July 2024 at 2:15 pm

               If the bike business is struggling financially maybe she puts her own family needs ahead of her country or party and stays on as long as possible simply for the money.
             • Chris …

               9 July 2024 at 5:32 pm

               Surely TPM are well aware the political cost of accepting Tana into their party would be way too high a price to pay for likely zero return.
               • weka …

                 9 July 2024 at 5:58 pm

                 I can't imagine they would want to take that mess on, but I don't know if she has connections with TPM.
           • gsays 2.1.3.2.2.2

             9 July 2024 at 5:39 pm

             "Her husband's business.."

             The two of them are directors and intimately involved in the running of the business. If the allegations are true, and they appear to be, then her hands are dirty.
   • weka 2.2

     9 July 2024 at 12:38 pm

     Shaw was normal turnover in a party. Collins was a tragedy akin to Rod Donald. Neither should be on the list. The other three are signs of problems that need to be addressed.

     Thing that pisses me off about Tana is that NZ is a small country, and Waiheke is very small and I would have thought crawling with GP members, so how come no-one knew there were issues when she was being selected?

     Swarbrick said yesterday that there is an onus on candidates to self-declare issues. Fair enough. But hopefully they've learned now to not rely on that. She did make a pointed comment about selection processes being reviewed.

     Ghahraman's situation is sad, I think they handled it ok, but obviously there are issues in the political parties generally around mental health care and wellbeing. Parliament is brutal and particularly for brown women.

     Kerekere was a liability in terms of behaviour and probably should have been addressed earlier. But I suspect it was poor selection process too, it seems likely that the behavioural stuff would predate selection.

     The loss of Shaw still burns, and while Swarbrick has many skills and the GP needed to try out the radical edge, she really needs to up her game and shift to leader more than activist.
     • weka 2.2.1

       9 July 2024 at 12:39 pm

       have only watched to half way through the media questions, but I thought Swarbrick did well in the press conference yesterday, she does seem to be getting better at the leadership stuff.
3. gsays 3

   9 July 2024 at 8:31 am

   I've tried using the search function in Desktop mode while on my Oppo.

   It gives several results but they all link to the same OM page.

   Any tips?
   • weka 3.1

     9 July 2024 at 12:39 pm

     restart device and try again.
   • lprent 3.2

     9 July 2024 at 12:52 pm

     Don't know about the Oppo.

     But the caching at the CDN seems a bit suspect at times. I'll dig out some time and turn it off for certain pages. Search results would be one of them. Thye should go direct to my servers.
4. dv 4

   9 July 2024 at 9:51 am

   Do the greens get another list mp with Tana gone from greens?
   • lprent 4.1

     9 July 2024 at 10:44 am

     If she resigns as a MP or the Greens or Speaker force the waka jumping legislation
     • dvr 4.1.1

       9 July 2024 at 11:04 am

       Thanks lprent
     • dvr 4.1.2

       9 July 2024 at 11:17 am

       Thanks
     • Michael Scott 4.1.3

       9 July 2024 at 1:46 pm

       Could she join the Maori Party?
       • lprent 4.1.3.1

         9 July 2024 at 1:55 pm

         Hot potato. Doesn’t feel like it would be a wise choice for them.

         If the employment accusations about not paying employees correctly were true, then a better home would be the National party or Act. Sounds like the type of activity that would approve of such behaviours – they are the parties for arsehole employers.

         However joining any other party in this term of parliament would probably force the speaker to declare that the proportionality of the house had been disturbed. This hasn’t been tested yet – see Kerekere
         • weka 4.1.3.1.1

           9 July 2024 at 2:10 pm

           very difficult to continue a nascent political career with a husband being investigate like he is.
           • lprent 4.1.3.1.1.1

             9 July 2024 at 2:44 pm

             Yeah. That is why this is why long investigations and prosecutions are such a pain.

             It is also why I took the trouble, extra effort, and cost to help drive my foolhardy private prosecutor (Dimwit Nottingham) over a post in this site into bankruptcy. If I'd had a choice I would have taken the time to try to put him into jail. It deters any future idiots from trying false complaints and prosecutions. It appears to be a family trait.

             If these allegations prove to be false, then I hope that Tana and her husband do the same to their accusers. Including to whoever is making the investigation so long.
             • weka …

               9 July 2024 at 4:24 pm

               Whatever her husband has or hasn't done, I think she broke things by not telling the GP leaders about the situation. There's not really a way to come back from that. Will be interesting to see what the story is if she agrees to the report being released, but it may not be possible because of the investigations into him.
5. Dolomedes III 5

   9 July 2024 at 1:00 pm

   The health sector is racist, according to this article in Stuff: https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350331208/racism-against-maori-medical-students-and-doctors-widespread-study-finds

   The evidence? https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/article-abstract/2820600. This is very poor quality “research”. No randomization (participants were self-selected), and based entirely on subjective perceptions of racism – apparently, not saying “kia ora” is racist. Neither is there any control group, as they didn’t ask Kiwis of European or Asian descent about their experiences of “racism” or bullying in the health sector. My sister trained as a doctor, and says she was bullied – but she’s white. It’s clear that training to be a doctor is hugely stressful and not for the faint-hearted, irrespective of ethnicity.

   But now the article has been published, it will be held up by activists as “proof” that the health system is racist, and must undergo further “indigenization” etc. This is how the academic publishing industry is complicit in the ideological capture of institutions. It’s called “idea laundering”. But what editor would dare risk accusations of “racism” by rejecting such a flawed piece of work?
6. adam 6

   9 July 2024 at 1:39 pm

   Interesting choices in new UK Government
7. lprent 7

   9 July 2024 at 4:49 pm

   Umm, someone in the Russian Federation really really wants to get on the site backend.

   Trying to hack the login system. Probably with a list of possible logins. The internal security keeps knocking them back and it shifts IPs.

   It can join the turkish network that did the same thing a few months ago.

   Blocking out 5.188.62.0/24 at Petersburg Internet Network Ltd.

   If push comes to shove I will block off the whole service provider network.

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