Open mike 09/09/2019

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, September 9th, 2019 - 238 comments
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238 comments on “Open mike 09/09/2019 ”

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  1. phillip ure 1
    9 September 2019 at 7:15 am

    a dairy farmer has penned an open letter to jacinda ardern..

    pleading for 'no legislation'..

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/the-country/news/article.cfm?c_id=16&objectid=12259057

    it is complete and utter bullshit…on a stick..

    • New view 1.1
      9 September 2019 at 8:58 am

      what part didn’t you like Phillip. I thought he had some fair points.

      • phillip ure 1.1.1
        9 September 2019 at 9:05 am

        i didn't like any of it..

        it may be faster if you detail what you like..

        it ignored science – was emotional-bullshit..(cue the violins/sad-faced-choir..)

        it completely lacked any intellectual-rigor..

        aside from that – it was pretty good..

        how did you read it..?

        • New view 1.1.1.1
          9 September 2019 at 9:56 am

          No Phillip he didn’t ignore the science. He objected to being taxed on it when there was no way for him to measure the emissions. He objected to being taxed when he felt he had done a huge amount on his farm to resolve environmental issues. So you saying it’s all just bullshit is in itself bullshit. Be honest Phillip you just hate dairy farmers generally. They most likely hate you.

          • Dukeofurl 1.1.1.1.1
            9 September 2019 at 10:01 am

            Cant measure the emissions ? hes in denial

            Its easy , just count the cows

          • phillip ure 1.1.1.1.2
            9 September 2019 at 10:09 am

            ' They most likely hate you'..

            maybe they cd organise a mass bbq..?

            (and i don’t ‘hate’ farmers..

            i object to what dairy-farming has done/is doing to our country…

            and i really really object to the industrial cruelties being done to animals on a daily basis..

            ‘hate’ isn’t really an emotion i run with..

            and i can understand/see how/why many are dairy farmers…(family circumstances/whatever..

            but they just have to stop what they are/have been doing..

            and i also realise they are only in the animal-extraction industries – because people want to eat animals – and their bye-products..

            i don’t make it anywhere near as personal as you seem to suggest..)

      • Pat 1.1.2
        9 September 2019 at 9:06 am

        As an individual he may..in aggregate less so.

        Why have sheep and beef emissions declined above the rate required to date?

        • phillip ure 1.1.2.1
          9 September 2019 at 9:12 am

          oh..i don't really feel like getting into a climate-denial debate with you..

          i'll pass on that undoubted delight..

          • Pat 1.1.2.1.1
            9 September 2019 at 9:17 am

            think you may be somewhat confused….take another look at the numeration

            • phillip ure 1.1.2.1.1.1
              9 September 2019 at 10:00 am

              to be honest pat – i don't know enough about the science of climate change to be able to debate in any credible way – some sliver/aspect of it..

              i tend to rely on the scientific consensus on the big-picture..

              which is pretty unequivocal..

              so i will pass on discussing that which you refer to..

        • New view 1.1.2.2
          9 September 2019 at 11:03 am

          I don’t know about declining, I do know that the emissions from sheep and beef would be less per hectare because the stock aren’t as concentrated as a general rule, and unless the beef part is all large bulls, the average size of the cattle would be smaller.

          • Pat 1.1.2.2.1
            9 September 2019 at 11:32 am

            sheep and beef emissions have indeed declined…simply because the national flock has over halved….and been replaced (and emissions increased) by dairy.

            • bwaghorn 1.1.2.2.1.1
              9 September 2019 at 12:29 pm

              A large chunk of the reduction in sheep and beef numbers is due to dairy conversion, but also forestry and manuka plantations have taken alot sheep n beef out of the system. I believe we are well below 1990 carbon emmisions in the sheep and beef sector.

    • Ian 1.2
      9 September 2019 at 9:56 am

      If you read it you will discover that he is a sheep and beef farmer,not a dairy farmer. Quite a difference Phillip.A well balanced letter and I look forward to reading the reply from Ardern.

      • marty mars 1.2.1
        9 September 2019 at 10:09 am

        "I admit I am no climate change expert, but if you can show me someone who professes to be one, I would say they are either delusional or just flat-out lying."

        yeah nah and it goes down hill from there – stick to farming mate or not by the sound of it, and leave the big stuff to people who get it.

        • phillip ure 1.2.1.1
          9 September 2019 at 12:33 pm

          @ ian..

          wot mm said..

          and can i suggest you don't hold yr breath untill you get to see that reply from ardern..

          • cleangreen 1.2.1.1.1
            9 September 2019 at 5:03 pm

            phillip.

            The PM's title is the 'Prime Minister Honourable Jacinda Ardern' not the disrespected/inconsiderate manner you refer to her as.'ardern'

            You are showing a biased lack of respect.

            Respect our PM please.

            • phillip ure 1.2.1.1.1.1
              9 September 2019 at 5:25 pm

              david farrar also once said that to me…re key..

              i'm not that big on honorifics…eh..?

              would pmhja suit you..?

              it was clark – it was key = it is ardern..

              respect (or lack of it) doesn’t come into the picture..

    • mac1 2.1
      9 September 2019 at 8:43 am

      The article is criticising supermarket practice of specialling food by offering discounts for bulk buying.

      The article is however blatantly misrepresenting the issue with its $10 sausage claim. It further misleads the reader with a claim that the sausage ends up costing more than a cigarette.

      When you read through the article, down below the photographs and the advertising and the list of what else you can read, at the eight paragraph you find out the opinion writer's issue is with a pack of six sausages at $10 or three packs for $20.

      Now I'm not interested in the criticism of the supermarket discount policy. That's not my issue. My issue is the falseness of the article's headline "Fury over $10 sausies: Anger, alienation and supermarket pricing strategies" and the opening three sentences.

      "All I wanted was some sausages at a fair price.

      Not a big ask in a supermarket, you would have thought.

      But at $10 each sausage would cost more than a cigarette. I know because I looked at how much those cost these days."

      Read that far. How much does each sausage cost? $10 each?

      Now read paragraph eight, down below the photograph.

      "So there I was with my three unpalatable choices: Pay $10 for the six "alpine pork" sausages…etc"

      You might argue that the picture tells the story. But the words tell a different one.

      What it looks like, and The Chairman, if you have read this far, down to paragraph 12, you may have been deceived into believing that under this government even the cost of sausages has gone through the piggery roof.

      It's poor writing at best.

      At worst (sorry about the pun) it is the opinion writer Rob Stock being very unfair because if you don't read it all, you get very much the wrong idea.

      The original article on Rob Stock's blog "Muck Rack" does not include any photographs btw as the Stuff article does.

      https://muckrack.com/rob-stock

      • greywarshark 2.1.1
        9 September 2019 at 9:56 am

        Perhaps this is a domestic example that follows the political pattern talked about in this Radionz The Detail item:

        'Is post-truth politics creeping into New Zealand?'

        And nowhere is ‘post-truth’ more visible than in politics – where ‘fake news’ and ‘alternative facts’ have become part of industry language.

        “It’s not a new concept, really,” says Sam Sachdeva, political editor for Newsroom.co.nz, who acknowledges that the ‘spin-doctoring’ of past decades “bears similarities” to the post-truth world of today….

        People live in these echo chambers and if you want to, you can kind of stay in a closed circuit where you’re just hearing the same messages that you put out, repeated back at you.”

        While some suggest fact-checking is the key to avoiding untruths in the news cycles, Sachdeva says a better option is just to try and understand all the sides of an issue….

        https://www.rnz.co.nz/programmes/the-detail/story/2018712121/is-post-truth-politics-creeping-into-new-zealand

        NZ Jester below has looked at the political side that is being practised here.

      • Sanctuary 2.1.2
        9 September 2019 at 11:26 am

        The thing about supermarket prices is they seldom reflect the actual cost of the product. Stevia, for example, is cheaper than sugar in Europe but a massively marked up sugar substitute here in NZ. Why? Because stevia is labelled a "luxury" diet item. Meat is no different. The secret is to work out the per kilo cost. A whole cured large ham on the bone at the moment might cost $60, but I bet it is a fraction of the price per kilo of sausages – which I think work out to be $35-40 a kilo, which is why they can be discounted on that 3 items for $20 dollar deal. Why? Because there are more people with $20 in their pocket than people with $60, regardless of the actual value. And I guarantee that exact same sized ham will cost at least twice as much when Xmas comes around.

        Supermarkets prices are based on demand, competition and (carefully manipulated) value perceptions, not what any particular item actually costs.

        • OnceWasTim 2.1.2.1
          9 September 2019 at 8:06 pm

          Which is probably why the next inquiry should be into supermarkets, or maybe banks, or maybe insurance companies…….flip a coin, take ya pick. Something could come of it by the turn of the next century – there's a lot of shit to try and fix

          • phillip ure 2.1.2.1.1
            9 September 2019 at 8:36 pm

            most of the food industry are total bandits..

            and will concoct up any crap they think people will buy..

            they are like the cigarette companies..a morals-free zone..

            they sell food that is proven to make people sick..

            laden with sugar..and..and…

            and that is just the childrens' cereals..

            what they peddle as healthy breakfast food is nothing like that…

            the only solution is to regulate them into submission..

            to set max-levels of sugar ..and..and…that they can put in their products..

            the costs to the health system from people living on this crap – if factored into the cost of this rubbish..would put the price of it thru the roof..

            why are the rest of us having to pay to clean up the mess they are making..?

            make-it-stop..!

    • Jimmy 2.2
      9 September 2019 at 9:27 am

      Supermarket just doing what most good retailers do….try to increase their sales. As a customer there is a simple solution, if you don't like it, vote with your feet and shop elsewhere. Plenty of decent butchers (probably better quality too?) or go to New World or Pak n Save.

      • Dukeofurl 2.2.1
        9 September 2019 at 10:04 am

        Heard of Duopoly ?

        Pakn save and New World are part of the same retail group, along with all the other small 'brands'

        Butcher ….you must be joking

        • Jimmy 2.2.1.1
          9 September 2019 at 1:03 pm

          Yes I've heard of the duopoly in the NZ grocery trade and am aware that PNS and NW (and even 4 Square) are part of Foodstuffs.

          But my comment remains…NW and PNS tend to not promote the bulk buys as much as Countdown so if you want one pack of sausages go to PNS (which will probably be the cheapest).

          I would still recommend the butcher in our area (we have at least two good ones) and you can buy single sausages if you like and they weigh them for you.

          Sounds like you live in a bad area for butchers!

      • mac1 2.2.2
        9 September 2019 at 10:16 am

        The sausages in question weighed 525 gm for six. That means at 6 for $10 that's $19.10 per kg. At 18 sausages for $20 that means $12.75 per kg for a more upmarhet sausage than your average banger. The packaging said, after all, 'alpine pork' and 'free farmed"!

        Whatever that means…………

        Supermarket sausages cost up to $16 kg. My butcher charges about the same for his own manufactured sausages.

  3. NZJester 3
    9 September 2019 at 7:36 am

    The RNZ asks in a headline "Is post-truth politics creeping into New Zealand?"

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/programmes/the-detail/story/2018712121/is-post-truth-politics-creeping-into-new-zealand

    My answer to that is that I think the book "Dirty Politics" shows it has been in full force in New Zealand for some time now.

  4. AB 4
    9 September 2019 at 7:48 am

    The Block turns into the flop. Not even the 'di-nemick pursnellity of Muk Richersin' could save it. Rename it to "Speculative Capitalism Sucks' or dump completely in 2020. 12 weeks work for zilch while the do nothing ticket clippers at Ray White never miss out on the meat and gravy. There's a parable here of a two-track economy if anyone has the gumption to write it.

  5. A 5
    9 September 2019 at 7:48 am

    Is Tauranga a bellweather for the rest of the property market?

    Key points:

    – about 30 commercial property units vacant in two streets

    – in last weeks residential auctions 8 out of 11 properties did not sell. The ones that sold were at the lower end of the market (suggesting first time buyers are the only ones stepping up)

    • Sabine 5.1
      9 September 2019 at 8:06 am

      its the same everywhere.

      to expensive.

      no business confidence

      people that live there have no money left to spend

      no tourists in winter

      and and and

      voila, empty overpriced commercial spaces.

      Luckily, loopholes and tax avoidance schemes (all legal of course) will assure that the property speculator will be able to write of any losses of empty properties they may have in their books.

      And our current lot does as little as the last lot did when it comes to speculation, pricies and legal tax avoidance schemes. Ain't no one ever gonna ask these 'landlords' to drop their outlandish prices.

    • A 5.2
      9 September 2019 at 8:52 am

      Oops soz, 8 out of 11 auctions didn't get a single bid and only two sold. Ouch.

      • Dukeofurl 5.2.1
        9 September 2019 at 10:14 am

        Unless you are a property spruiker…why would we care . a mass auction in a stable market never works anyway… they will have to sell the old fashioned way… waiting to see who puts in offers over 9 months

        • A 5.2.1.1
          9 September 2019 at 10:50 am

          I care because I think that first home buyers are being lead like lambs to the slaughter. The more people who get good info, the less these kids are penalised later on.

          If the sellers get less than "market" price they don't actually lose unless they used their property as an ATM.

    • tc 5.3
      9 September 2019 at 10:09 am

      Yes and the usual councils ineptitude has let their CBD's go off the boil as the mega malls arise on the edges along with more attractive commercial property.

      They approved it so it’s not like they didn’t know it was coming. Does tauranga CBD have a sensible parking regime to encourage folk in ?

      • Sabine 5.3.1
        9 September 2019 at 10:59 am

        funnily this could be its biggest attraction to making the marina more attractive is the loss of cars. It has got cycle lane in it and heck it would be a nice evening entertainment area ala italy if planned and implemented correctly. But non of that has anything to do with the price of the commercial leases anywhere in NZ. They are not 'market based' they are tax write off based.

        Where i live a shop situated in a mall with a few staff and good income closed because they could not absorb the new lease demand. Simply closed and went home. The empty shops in the 'CBD" are also to expensive.

        The people from town who need what they sold will now have to travel to the next town over by car. 🙂 World is fucked.

    • Brigid 5.4
      9 September 2019 at 8:26 pm

      Real estate agent told me properties rarely sell at auction, but does give an indication of what the market will pay.

      Damned expensive bit of marketing I think but I guess some are conned by the agent that it's a good idea.

  6. Pat 6
    9 September 2019 at 8:46 am

    "Forbes’ PhD research showed that Pinus Radiata can be used as a nurse canopy, nurturing baby native forest through its vulnerable early years. Many native seedlings scorch and die if they attempt to grow in the open. In nature, they rely on mature trees to keep them safe until they’re bigger.

    On the right site, says Forbes: “What the pine canopy will do … is moderate the microclimate, to mimic the shelter of a natural forest and to allow native tree species to establish."

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2019/09/09/788817/nobody-loves-radiata

    Another policy reset needed?

    • greywarshark 6.1
      9 September 2019 at 10:11 am

      That has been discussed on Sundays How to Get There. Gorse is an efficient starter canopy for natives, and is nitrogen fixing through the roots. Perhaps Robert can bring us up to date with the aspect of pines. I think if we keep concentrating on pines we make ourselves very vulnerable to pests and disease wiping them out as has happened to Kauri. Too much a monopoly of species in plantation growth.

      NZ needs to promote new ideas which have been researched and offered as worthy and valuable for active use. We tend to be planted firmly in conservative approaches – 'If it ain't broke, don't fix it'. But says an alert mind, why would we not change until something has broken? Think ahead, widen the mind, pilot the new and measure the milestones, and adopt for mainstream new avenues, and think also on a precautionary level.

    • Dukeofurl 6.2
      9 September 2019 at 10:20 am

      Newsroom can be largely fact free

      "Radiata became the nation’s wood crop after most of our ancient Kauri forests were destroyed by indiscriminate logging in the 1880s"

      Kauri only grows north of lat 38deg . ie Auckland Coromandel and Northland

      Central North Island volcanic plateau etc didnt have trees at all over the pumice lands till Radiata came along

    • mauī 6.3
      9 September 2019 at 10:26 am

      Gorse does a much better job of nursing native trees and the native can over top it in a few years.

      Pines grow and grow and basically stunt the growth of whatever is underneath them. Can't really see people buying into achieving a native forest once the pines die in 100+ years.

      • marty mars 6.3.1
        9 September 2019 at 10:44 am

        + 1 pine is a money maker and that is why it is loved.

        • marty mars 6.3.2.1
          9 September 2019 at 11:15 am

          I live in the bay – milnthorpe is not a pine forest but it is exotic.

          • Pat 6.3.2.1.1
            9 September 2019 at 11:34 am

            that is the point…it is a hybrid….they didnt attempt to eradicate the exotic but used them as a nursery for natives….successfully

            • mauī 6.3.2.1.1.1
              9 September 2019 at 12:03 pm

              I'm warming to the idea of a hybrid native-exotic forest, but I don't like the idea of using pine in it. Go for a walk in any pine forest that has reached maturity and see the sparseness of native underneath.

              Use a high value species instead, say like Tasmanian blackwood and select fell on maturity. Then it can provide ongoing local income and the regenerating native forest can still build the carbon sink but slowly.

              • phillip ure …
                9 September 2019 at 12:44 pm

                not so much 'sparse' as totally devoid of..

                pine forests are dead forests..

                the pine-needles kill most else…

                replacing anything with even more bloody pine trees..

                ..is a terrible idea..

                doubters should go for a walk in a pine-forest..

                it is not a pleasing experience..

                you will hurry to get out again..

                and we want to cover new zealand with that..?

                that is seriously fucked up…

                after the death of the animal extraction industries we will need far less land to grow the food we need..

                so much of it could be allowed to return to natural regrowth..(economic forces cd dictate this..)

                sure..throw some seeds around..

                then let nature work its’ magic..

                i reckon that’s a better plan..

                than more bloody pine trees..

                • bwaghorn …
                  9 September 2019 at 12:48 pm

                  Depends where they are the tokoroa pines I worked in were jungles of understory nz natives under a full pine canopy. Out in kaiangaroa the higher pumice country was just needles and gnarly shrubs around the edges .

                • OnceWasTim …
                  9 September 2019 at 8:18 pm

                  Apparently magic mushrooms grow quite well in and around the pine needles – or so a few Wellington High School students used to tell me.

                  I guess it must be true – there's one brain fried ex student/ex-employee of the local New World I sometimes see scurrying around in the nearby undergrowth desperately looking for an escape

              • weka …
                9 September 2019 at 1:47 pm

                What kind of pine forest? Plantation pine won't grow much, but it's not a natural forest. I've seen kānuka growing well under mature pines, not plantation though.

                There's a kind of madness in chopping down pines just because. We don't have to plant more of them but we can make better use of the ones growing themselves.

  7. mac1 7
    9 September 2019 at 9:16 am

    Boris Johnson gets the message from a policeman.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/115635315/the-trumpisation-of-uk-politics-boris-johnson-is-busting-political-norms

    "The prime minister's nightmare week ended with his speech before the West Yorkshire police cadets, where he stumbled and bumbled for a full minute, trying unsuccessfully to recite the police caution – Britain's equivalent of the Miranda rights.

    As he spoke, a cadet standing behind him fainted.

    Mark Burns-Williamson, the West Yorkshire police commissioner, called Johnson's performance a "political stunt" and demanded an apology. He said police had been told Johnson planned to focus solely on public safety spending.

    "It clearly turned into a rant about Brexit, the opposition and a potential general election," Burns-Williamson told reporters. "There's no way that police officers should've formed the backdrop to a speech of that nature."

    Not a good week for Boris. Losing votes in the House, losing MPs from his own party, losing his cool in the House with inappropriate and sexist language, and losing the respect of a senior police officer for using the Police for a political stunt.

    • Dukeofurl 7.1
      9 September 2019 at 10:11 am

      So . Labour hasnt been losing Mps too? Essentially means nothing except to the political TV shows who need to compete with 'fake reality' genre

      Does following all this sort of stuff keep you up at night

      • mac1 7.1.1
        9 September 2019 at 2:21 pm

        Dukeofurl, I don't recall making any comment about Labour, or any comparison with Labour, so why do you introduce that distractive meme into a four point list of failures that PM Johnson has achieved in a very short time?

        I note that you do not address the very important issue that a senior English police officer objected very strongly to having the Police politicised in the way that Johnson attempted?

        But thanks for your concern about my nocturnal health. I am not sure, though, whether it is addressed to my wakefulness or my sexual potency………..

    • tc 7.2
      9 September 2019 at 10:14 am

      A bad week for Boris is when he's not the centre of attention.

  8. Andre 8
    9 September 2019 at 9:52 am

    Rejoice, one and all. A long-standing problem of deep significance has been resolved. We now know that 42 is the answer to …

    (-80538738812075974)^3 + 80435758145817515^3 + 12602123297335631^3 = 42

    https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2019/09/the-answer-to-life-the-universe-and-everything-finally-cracked/

    • Peter Christchurh nz 8.1
      9 September 2019 at 10:16 am

      Yes, but we still do not know what the question was!

      Classic series that (Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy for those who missed it).

  9. greywarshark 9
    9 September 2019 at 10:23 am

    DukeofUrl I see today you are following your common model of being disagreeable, in all of its meanings, rather than just discussing a matter. You manage to respond in a way that diminishes the writer implying that they are wasting their time putting their ideas forward. Is this how you get your enjoyment in life? Is it what gets you out of bed each day – to go onto The Standard and others and put down almost everybody's comments in a superior fashion. The archetypical tall poppy slayer!

    • Andre 9.1
      9 September 2019 at 11:06 am

      Greywarshark I see today you are following your common model of criticising commenters, rather than just discussing a matter. You manage to respond in a way that diminishes the writer implying that they are wasting their time putting their ideas forward. Is this how you get your enjoyment in life? Is it what gets you out of bed each day – to go onto The Standard and others and put down almost everybody's comments in a superior fashion. The archetypical tall poppy slayer!

      • greywarshark 9.1.1
        9 September 2019 at 12:06 pm

        Andre I notice that you are criticising me. I am trying to discuss the way that a commenter enters into interaction on The Standard as a 'matter'. I find that many of you here are doing the blog a disservice and limiting discussion by demeaning comment. You seek to put down earnest efforts – you have mockingly repeated to me the words I questioned DukeofUrl that are meant to make him think. They obviously haven't penetrated you as to their meaning and reasoning.

        The rule you quote is just a useful edict to prevent commenters from having any say in the way that the blog is run. And it is an important blog for lefties who hope to achieve improvements and timely measures for all NZ in the near and distant future. Instead of encouraging people to share in a responsible way in a democratic way in the discussion, you cling to top-down attitudes that suit the superior style of people who are convinced of their own perfection. This means that you adopt executive behaviours, negative and discouraging to people who could otherwise come to the blog. The attitude is anti-democratic, anti-free speech and not progressive in that it preserves conservative attitudes that are an antithesis of encouraging thought and understanding amongst the broad mass of people.

        We are being led into a future hard to understand and comprehend. We need to be encouraging of people putting their ideas forward and discuss them and not just respond with derision and self-serving edicts that exclude. I am not just responding like a disaffected member of some club. I am concerned that older people who are guiding the direction of this blog that could be an excellent way of leading to a more civilised future are firmly stuck in a didactic, pedantic approach that has been the common one during the last century which has been inadequate to prevent the present that is full of dangers and talk of annihilation.

        So it is important for people to be able to reach out and talk and think and make changes in their attitudes. And smarmy, smart alick attempts to attempts to break through persistent negativity to achieve a wide level of discussion from a wider group of people than those batting on about their favourite obsession is essential. It is not me triviialising the blog it is people like you Andre and you DukeofUrl who limit it, dominate it, and diminish its potential for effective talk on the way forward. So if this is too long for you to read, you aren't near to being capable of responding to the predicament that we face today. Enjoy your little club, batting round your wisdom in a word game to fill your day. It acts as a herbicide to ensure that nothing will grow into something useful and helpful to the young for their future.

        And you can respond to this as you wish. I have no more to say about it so you can carve it up, crumple it and throw it in the wastebasket as you wish. I have been coming here for years and hoped for really good discussions from informed people. But they rarely happen. And I think that often people have been discouraged by ambush commenters, Posts may be swampted by those who want to proselytise their one belief. Also the feeling that the moderator is a teacher and even committed and thoughtful commenters are to be treated like naughty children or rabble who must not question authority. In NZ we need participatory democracy and I thought that this left blog would be progressive and a leader in encouraging people to get involved and take on some of the work, but it seems set in a didactic role only.

        • greywarshark 9.1.1.1
          9 September 2019 at 3:14 pm

          This old man gives me heart and I must listen to him regularly and take in his wisdom about talking and listening to others. I think we would all learn some nuggets of gold from his thoughts.

          Theodore Zeldin

    • Jimmy 9.2
      9 September 2019 at 1:10 pm

      I totally agree with you on Dukeofurl…..see my comments above at 2.2 and 2.2.1.1 and that was only discussing sausages.

      SAUSAGES ffs!!!!

    • OnceWasTim 9.3
      9 September 2019 at 8:32 pm

      Children children! Wait until your father gets home! If you don't settle down there'll be no bedtime story and I'm going to have to separate you. This is the second time today.

      I might even have to discuss withdrawing you all from the Steiner School with him, and just think how that might thwart your clevernesses.

  10. greywarshark 10
    9 September 2019 at 10:31 am

    Edit
    Here is a great Maori Initiative showing government what they should be doing for disadvantaged Maori first and foremost, and then roll it out for impoverished pakeha and other tauiwi.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/2018712432/from-sleeping-rough-to-path-to-kaitaia-home-ownership

    Good on you up there in Kaitaia. You have really got 'Kaitaia Fire' (a brand of chilli sauce produced there.) He Korowai Trust deserves a high ten.

    Sub standard dwellings, high rents, Aucklanders on the move and a lack of suitable housing are all factors contributing to the housing crisis in the Far North.

    But a Kaitaia-based social services provider is offering hope for people who've been homeless, or living in sub-standard accommodation to aim for home ownership of recycled state houses. He Korowai Trust Chief Executive Ricky Houghton tells Kathryn about the Whare Ora scheme, and we hear from Hayleigh Te Hira who will move into one of the houses in a couple of weeks.

    • Rosemary McDonald 10.1
      9 September 2019 at 11:03 am

      Ricky Houghton, local hero, change -maker and standards setter.

      Criteria to qualify for a Project “Whare Ora” home

      All applicants MUST:

      • Have been refused home ownership assistance or
      • Be living in substandard housing conditions eg: Cow-shed, Condemned home, Bus, Lean-Too, Tent;
      • Comply with the No-Alcohol, No illegal Drugs, No Violence policy of the papakainga;
      • Fully complete & graduate from the Trusts Home Ownership Education programme;
      • Following the Home Ownership graduation for the first 5 years comply with any mutually agreed parenting, budgeting, specialists counselling including self help programme / plan;
      • Ensure their children attend on-site pre-school and parents attend on-site training (if not working or training or school off-site);
  11. marty mars 11
    9 September 2019 at 10:57 am

    I've been pretty dark on this one – so many levels of wrong with this disgusting event. I stand with these horrified whānau.

    Descendants of Herepo Rongo and Kirikino Epiha are outraged at the misappropriate use of the portraits of their ancestors.

    The whānau gathered at Poihakena Marae today to discuss a way to stop their ancestral taonga being disrespected.

    John Haru, a grandchild to Herepo Rongo, says, "It's just beyond disrespectful, even more so because he himself I believe is Māori."

    https://teaomaori.news/whanau-call-stop-misuse-maori-taonga

    • adam 11.1
      9 September 2019 at 3:51 pm

      Totally with you on this one marty mars.

      I'm saddened, more than I'm angered by this – just another example of the anomie that has gone hand in hand with urbanisation and pepper potting post 1945.

  12. phillip ure 12
    9 September 2019 at 10:59 am

    (you find some interesting stuff on twitter..)

    'With the royalties and fees Roger Waters bought whole rows of houses and gave them to the council in Battersea in the 70s'..

    (i reckon that's very cool..)

  13. Pete George 13
    9 September 2019 at 11:53 am

    It appears that the Labour Party is failing assault victims badly here. Yesterday from Stuff:

    Young Labour abuse victims barred from Parliament offices

    ​Labour's president Nigel Haworth barred complainants and witnesses in an alleged bullying and sexual harassment case from one of Parliament's main buildings.

    Leaked emails show Haworth and other senior officials instructed the women, all Labour party members, to stay away from the Labour party offices in Bowen House, where the man at the centre of their complaints works.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/115592299/young-labour-abuse-victims-barred-from-parliament-offices

    Today from The Spinoff:

    A Labour volunteer alleged a violent sexual assault by a Labour staffer. This is her story

    A Labour party staffer is alleged to have committed a serious and sustained sexual assault on a 19-year-old volunteer early in 2018. The volunteer told the Spinoff the assault was compounded by the resulting inquiry, during which the alleged perpetrator was not stood down from any duties, which included the supervision of Young Labour volunteers. The complaint process, undertaken entirely by people within the Labour Party, has left her feeling “angry, quite fearful and desperate”.

    https://thespinoff.co.nz/unsponsored/09-09-2019/a-labour-volunteer-alleged-violent-sexual-assault-by-a-senior-staffer-this-is-her-story/

    The Party is running out of carpet to sweep this under. Nigel Haworth's position must be in jeopardy.

    Why Labour president must resign over sexual assault allegations

    Ardern can no longer pretend that sexual harassment is someone else's problem.

    It will be a painful realisation, but Labour must accept that it has a toxic culture and does not look after its young members.

    The first step in addressing that is to fire Haworth, the man who badly failed all the complainants.

    This time, the party must protect them – and not turn away.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/115593917/why-labour-president-must-resign-over-sexual-assault-allegations

    Jacinda Ardern needs to step up and ensure that the Labour Party acts appropriately on this. Much damage has already be done, but priority needs to be on addressing the serious concerns of complainants.

    • Sacha 13.1
      9 September 2019 at 1:26 pm

      Accompanying editorial from Spinoff: https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/09-09-2019/editorial-labour-has-failed-vulnerable-young-members-for-second-time-there-must-be-consequences/

      If the Labour party boss has any integrity, his resignation should lead the 6pm news.

    • Dukeofurl 13.2
      9 September 2019 at 1:26 pm

      Confused much ?

      One at the Youth Camp wasnt a Young Labour member.

      The other story is employment issues at Parliament staff which were investigated and 'unfounded'

      The story calls the Parliament employees as 'Young Labour abuse victims' without any verifification

      Indeed this is the basis of that claim

      "Stuff has also learned three of the women were invited to a young Labour event, in the party's caucus room at Parliament"

      The person complained was there!

    • ianmac 13.3
      9 September 2019 at 2:17 pm

      There have been no actual complaints laid, so difficult to action. Suspect that P Bennett set it up so, because then you get the smear for an age but the Labour Party cannot take any action. Limbo. Dirty Trick I reckon.

      • Puckish Rogue 13.3.1
        9 September 2019 at 2:51 pm

        There is something Jacinda could do

        https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2019/09/the_clause_jacinda_refuses_to_use.html

        But Jacinda has obviously decided that winning reelection is more important than some young womens complaints

        As the old saying goes you can't make an omelette without sexually harrassing young women, whitewashing the investigation and then bullying the victims into silence

        • marty mars 13.3.1.1
          9 September 2019 at 3:30 pm

          score your points with your fake concern – you are disgusting using distress and hurt politically like that but a typical rwnj behaviour and the fact you think judith collins should be PM should show readers what a POS you are puckwit

        • Gabby 13.3.1.2
          9 September 2019 at 5:54 pm

          Allegedly puckers.

      • Chris T 13.3.2
        9 September 2019 at 4:44 pm

        There are sometimes when being one eyed just makes someone look stubbornly billigerent.

        Given the number of alleged incidents of this type with Labour, it seems to be heading to one of those times.

    • Robert Guyton 14.1
      9 September 2019 at 12:19 pm

      There were these two terriers who loved the scent of blood and would lose their minds with excitement when they caught a hint of any on the breeze…

      • Rosemary McDonald 14.1.1
        9 September 2019 at 12:33 pm

        Robert…let's cut through the seemingly clever quips and demand that the Labour Party deal to this shit. Toot sweet. Is there a sexually predatory megalomaniac working for Parliamentary Services, close to the Prime Minister? If not, someone should be unleashing those Legal Attack Dogs and sue these journalists for casting aspersions on the good reputation of the Good Ship Labour and all who sail in her.

        • Robert Guyton 14.1.1.1
          9 September 2019 at 1:12 pm

          Indeed, Rosemary, demand away.

          • Puckish Rogue 14.1.1.1.1
            9 September 2019 at 1:26 pm

            Robert, John Key pulled a ponytail and the left in NZ collectively lost its shit. Numerous people have tried to come forward about allegations of sexual assault, alleged victims have been banned from workplaces and your response is to what minimize the situation? Ignore it?

            Do you remember Roastbusters, this is starting to look uncomfortably like Roastbusters 2.0 except this goes to the highest levels of power (power imbalance much)

            • Robert Guyton 14.1.1.1.1.1
              9 September 2019 at 1:32 pm

              Many times, he pulled, Pucky. Let's not minimalise facts.

              • Puckish Rogue …
                9 September 2019 at 1:47 pm

                Ok he did, he pulled a ponytail many times.
                Do you remember this:

                https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/73884590/

                John Keys comments led to a walk out, whats Labours actions led to…

                https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/115592299/young-labour-abuse-victims-barred-from-parliament-offices

                'Leaked emails show Haworth and other senior officials instructed the women, all Labour party members, to stay away from the Labour party offices in Bowen House, where the man at the centre of their complaints works.'

                There appears to be a problem within Labour involving abuses of power by men over women facilitated by those that try to minimize the actions

                • adam …
                  9 September 2019 at 4:20 pm

                  As I will lose it when the truth is revealed here,. There is no point going off half cocked in an attempt to score political points – which helps no one.

                  That said, did you forget the media ambushed the young women who got her hair pulled – so she lost her job.

                  She was treated by a Prime Minister as a sexual object – a power differential so wide – if you didn't feel shocked – then there is somthing seriously wrong with your ability to make moral decisions.

            • Stuart Munro. 14.1.1.1.1.2
              9 September 2019 at 8:53 pm

              There was a bit more than that to the failings of the Key Kleptocracy – remember He Who Is Not To Be Named? Who turned out not to be the Lovecraftian deity but Mike Sabin instead. Didn't see comparable concern for the complainants in that instance, much less click whoring news stories. The simple fact that it made the news shows that it isn't being covered up the way Sabin's doings were.

      • Puckish Rogue 14.1.2
        9 September 2019 at 1:08 pm

        Robert no this is not something minor, this is a big deal for the victims involved, don't you see that?

        • Robert Guyton 14.1.2.1
          9 September 2019 at 1:13 pm

          I do see that, Pucky. Neither Pete nor Sam are "the victims involved" – do you see that?

          • Puckish Rogue 14.1.2.1.1
            9 September 2019 at 1:17 pm

            Can you not see that there seems to be a major issue within Labour with, alleged, sexual assault, with reporting, alleged, sexual assault, with supporting the victims of, alleged, sexual assault and with dealing with the people accused of, alleged, sexual assault

            Lets do this

            • Robert Guyton 14.1.2.1.1.1
              9 September 2019 at 1:25 pm

              The anonymous author of today's opinion piece is saying that there seems to be etc. So yes, I agree with you, there seems to be. Seemingly.

              • Sacha …
                9 September 2019 at 1:29 pm

                Robert, I agree with Pete below on this. That should tell you how far off-base you are. Please stop digging.

              • Climaction …
                9 September 2019 at 1:35 pm

                The whole point of MeToo was to enable victims to come out of the dark when abused by persons in position of power. And here you go chasing them back in by snidely referring to them as “anonymous”

                wouldn’t be because of the power imbalance inherent in the situation would it?

          • Pete George 14.1.2.1.2
            9 September 2019 at 1:24 pm

            Andrea Vance, Alison Mau, Alex Casey, Toby Manhire and Duncan Greive are not "the victims involved" either, but are speaking out for the victims. They are trying to address what sounds like serious claims of predatory sexual behaviour.

            If you think that petty trolling is more important than that then so be it. But I think that puts you at risk of appearing as a diverter/defender of attacks against women and men, abuses of power, and very disappointing attempts at covering this up.

            I'd like to see Jacinda step up and act responsibly here, for the good of the victims, both specific in this case and the many who are victims of a culture of abuse and excusing or diverting from abuse.

            If not I think that the Labour Party will be further damaged by ongoing mismanagement of multiple abuse allegations. That's not good for the Government.

            • Robert Guyton 14.1.2.1.2.1
              9 September 2019 at 1:29 pm

              I've made no comment about the issues, Pete, only your and Sam's seeming delight in highlighting commentary around them. Pucky too, seems enlivened by the scent of blood in the water.

              • Pete George …
                9 September 2019 at 1:35 pm

                I think you're being pathetic. I made no expression of delight – you haven't even misperceived, you've just made it up.

                I have no delight in people being sexually abused.

                I have no delight in a political party that has sold it'self as being different and caring but dealing very poorly with allegations within it's own party and offices.

                I doubt that supporting rape culture was your intent, but it is how it appears to me, attacking messengers to divert from serious messages.

              • Puckish Rogue …
                9 September 2019 at 1:37 pm

                How many more, alleged, victims will need to come forward before you take your blinkers off and think maybe theres an issue that needs to be addressed or are you more worried that this will hurt Labours chances of reelection, that maybe the victims should not be saying anything lest National gets back into power

                Does the end justify the means for you Robert?

              • Rosemary McDonald …
                9 September 2019 at 1:40 pm

                Robert….sigh. Nevermind.

                • Jimmy …
                  9 September 2019 at 2:07 pm

                  You would not want to be a woman working for a department that Robert was in charge of! Is he older? and "possibly comes from a time when the secretary received a 'pat on the bottom for a job well done'?

                  [This comment is just diatribe and playing the man. The topic is sensitive and should be treated as such. Please do not add more diatribe to the growing pile here – Incognito]

                  • Incognito …
                    9 September 2019 at 2:15 pm

                    See my Moderation note @ 2:07 PM.

                  • Puckish Rogue …
                    9 September 2019 at 2:18 pm

                    I think this says it all:

                    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12263955

                    'Priest said the accused had a complete defence to the fourth charge, an allegation of unwanted kissing.'

                    "She wanted it," Priest said. "There is no indecent assault here."

                    Wonder if there'll be any marches down main stream about the sexual harrassment culture in Labour, any mass walk outs maybe…

                    Yeah right

                    • Psycho Milt …
                      9 September 2019 at 2:40 pm

                      One looks forward to your wholehearted support for future attempts to make the criminal justice system less hostile to victims of sex crimes. Proposals up to now have been roundly denounced by right-wingers for being unfair to the alleged perps, so it's nice to see this change of heart.

                    • Puckish Rogue …
                      9 September 2019 at 2:57 pm

                      I have no problems with making the criminal justice system less hostile to victims of Labours sex crimes or any sex crimes for that matter

                  • Peter Christchurh nz …
                    9 September 2019 at 2:19 pm

                    Yeah, those days are long gone. My assistant is my wife, and even I am not allowed to do that to her without her threatening to quit.

              • Sam C …
                9 September 2019 at 2:14 pm

                Robert, are you able to point anywhere in my post to my "seeming delight"?

                No, didn't think so.

      • Jimmy 14.1.3
        9 September 2019 at 1:17 pm

        There's two sides to every story and a person is innocent until proven guilty, but surely you cant believe Labour has dealt well with these serious issues?

        • In Vino 14.1.3.1
          9 September 2019 at 8:18 pm

          I think Robert is quite right. You who protest such deep concern are actually delighted to have found such a way of embarrassing and thereby attacking the Labour Party, and you are doing so with obvious relish, despite all your protestations of sincere concern (often a giveaway by the less-than-sincere.)

          Why not wait for the full story to emerge before rushing to demand self-flagellation by those whose guilt is not yet established?

          • Jimmy 14.1.3.1.1
            10 September 2019 at 11:11 am

            Not at all. I feel sorry for the 'victims' but I guess in both yours and Roberts eyes they are expendable "for the greater good".

            I am disappointed with the way Labour has handled it. Jacinda quite rightly should be pissed off (although she used the term frustrated) especially with Nigel Haworth if what has been reported is true. In fact I believe he could end up paying the price for this and lose his job.

    • SHG 14.2
      9 September 2019 at 1:56 pm

      Oh please, she was nineteen, can anyone believe what a teenage girl says? I bet she was wearing makeup and revealing clothes, so it was basically her fault even though it didn't happen.

      [2 month ban for running rape culture lines. The only reason it’s not longer is I haven’t had a chance to give you a warning. So take notice of this. If I see you suggest that women cause rape by what they wear (or that they generally lie about rape) I will ban you for a very long time. – weka]

      [had a look at some of your other comments, and giving you the benefit of the doubt. Ban reduced to three days, this conversation needs less flame in it, so please rethink the sarcasm soundbite approach. By all means be sarcastic as needed but you have to make it clear that is what you are doing and what your political point is. I also suggest adjust that to lessen any aggro developing over time in the debate – weka]

      • Puckish Rogue 14.2.1
        9 September 2019 at 2:03 pm

        Why is she making a big deal of it anyway, he was just being friendly, showing her the ropes, its called networking, doesn't she realise that she might be responsible for losing the election for Labour if can't she keep quiet about it (so selfish of her), its no big deal anyway, its not like sex actually happened

        [lprent: Carry on in this supercilious way and I will demonstrate how exactly ‘friendly’ I can get. It adds nothing to the discussion and merely makes me think that you’re not taking the topic seriously.

        Basically I don’t like idiot fuckwits and you just dropped to down to that level. Jez what a gormless mansplainer you must be. ]

        • Peter Christchurh nz 14.2.1.1
          9 September 2019 at 2:27 pm

          Sadly, many still think like that. The end (election victory) justifies the means (sweeping the allegations under the carpet).

          Yet again, Nigel Haworth proves that he is not up to the responsibilities of his position.

      • Puckish Rogue 14.2.2
        9 September 2019 at 3:35 pm

        Weka SHG isn't seriously running those lines. He/she is using sarcasm to point out how bad Labours investigation looks

        • weka 14.2.2.1
          9 September 2019 at 3:43 pm

          Ok, the ban is for politicising rape then. Next time they will be more careful.

          • weka 14.2.2.1.1
            9 September 2019 at 3:46 pm

            seeing your reply to SHG, you're on my radar now too. I have no problem with commenters here wanting more accountability from Labour (I do), and arguing for that. But there is a line, including not politicising rape. If you don't know where the line is, then I suggest withholding the comment.

      • weka 14.2.3
        9 September 2019 at 4:04 pm

        updated mod comment for you SHG.

      • weka 14.2.4
        9 September 2019 at 5:35 pm

        btw SHG, you may or may not be aware that comments deleted by a commenter, or comments made after a ban has been entered into the system, are still visible to moderators.

        So, subtext, while important doesn't trump context. I think you got the point, but I'll reiterate. Moderation isn't here to parse subtext, it's to protect the site owners (from defamation charges) and to uphold the robust debate ethic while making the place reasonably functional to debate within. Mostly I moderate on patterns of behaviours, but sometimes a comment will stand out on its own as problematic. Hence the advice to be more clear when commenting (onus there is on you, not me).

    • Gabby 14.3
      9 September 2019 at 5:56 pm

      I'd like you to name the alleged perpetrator sambam. Go on go on go on go on go on.

      [a week’s ban for making an incredibly stupid suggestion that someone puts the site’s owners at risk of defamation. – weka]

      [I’d like you to realise that by tempting another commenter to break the Law on this site you are putting the site at risk. Take a week off – Incognito]

      [Edit: Weka beat me to it]

  15. Poission 15
    9 September 2019 at 12:18 pm

    The sudden stratospheric warming,and expected (forecast) outcomes.

    https://ozonewatch.gsfc.nasa.gov/meteorology/figures/merra2/temperature/t60_90s_10_2019_merra2.pdf

    https://twitter.com/CopernicusECMWF/status/1170733433154408449

    This (the singularity SSW) should provide some good tests for the expected (dynamical) response, as an analogue of the outcomes of the montreal protocol

  16. greywarshark 16
    9 September 2019 at 12:39 pm

    Here is some conspiracy stuff that is possibly correct. Mass shootings are not treated with the quick response to shut them down that would be expected. And they have a clandestine use for an agency that has a covert agenda extending from Israel – USA – other countries.

    https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2019/09/08/the-daily-blog-open-mic-sunday-8th-september-2019/#comment-473970

    • McFlock 16.1
      9 September 2019 at 12:49 pm

      All conspiracy stuff is "possibly correct". That's part of why they suck people in.

      • Poission 16.1.1
        9 September 2019 at 1:18 pm

        Like the deep state? Woodrow Wilson (1913)

        Since I entered politics, I have chiefly had men's views confided to me privately. Some of the biggest men in the United States, in the field of commerce and manufacture, are afraid of somebody, are afraid of something. They know that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they had better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it.

        They know that America is not a place of which it can be said, as it used to be, that a man may choose his own calling and pursue it just as far as his abilities enable him to pursue it; because to-day, if he enters certain fields, there are organizations which will use means against him that will prevent his building up a business which they do not want to have built up; organizations that will see to it that the ground is cut from under him and the markets shut against him. For if he begins to sell to certain retail dealers, to any retail dealers, the monopoly will refuse to sell to those dealers, and those dealers, afraid, will not buy the new man's wares.

        https://www.gutenberg.org/files/14811/14811-h/14811-h.htm

        • McFlock 16.1.1.1
          9 September 2019 at 1:44 pm

          "Deep state" is shorthand used by people who can only comprehend monoliths and who therefore only see monoliths.

          A bit like how the yanks refer to "the Taliban" when it's a far less cohesive group than the name implies – more a mixture of lose federations and local leaderships entering into alliances of convenience.

          Monoliths are easy to demonise and to fight. Realities are more subtle.

          Confusing economic arguments about monopolies and monopolistic practices with the modern concept of the "Deep state" is just icing on the cake.

        • greywarshark 16.1.1.2
          13 September 2019 at 10:42 am

          What those things that Woodrow Wilson said were confided to him, are happening 'Right here in River City', or others that haven't had musicals made about them.

          So though everything that two or more people do may be called a conspiracy, there are large and pervasive ones that are as thoroughly bedded in as the bindweed roots in my soil. A nasty weed too, though all conspiracies aren't. But not to be dismissed out of hand, they are important to be aware of.

          I have realised that our financial system is the embodiment of a conspiracy; one that can lead to good or ill. We are sort of aware of this but still try to operate within its lets and hindrances.

          DracoTBastard was always telling us about how capitalism tends to be used against, not for us. He was thinking about what was important for those of us not in the conspiracy group, in May.

          Draco T Bastard‏ @DracoTBastard May 12

          Food, shelter, care for our kids. Not loan sharks' profits. Tell the Government to stop predatory lending. http://www.together.org.nz/loansharks?recruiter_id=15100 … #nzpol

      • vto 16.1.2
        9 September 2019 at 8:41 pm

        Mcflock not many realise that the human ability to conspire is the main thing that has got us here. It is as human as it comes….

        • McFlock 16.1.2.1
          9 September 2019 at 9:04 pm

          Conspiracies exist.

          Secret monolithic conspiracies… not so much.

          I tend to view it as an invisible hand of skulduggery – formal and informal power structures, the individuals within plotting for their personal advancement as well as the advancement of their structure and the branch they occupy within it. all individually plot away and very little if anything is centrally planned.

          Spectre and the Illuminati don't exist nearly so much as General McWhatsits looking for a post-retirement board membership of Spacely Aerosprockets, and Colonel McAccounting isn't going to take a thin case against McWhatsits' favourable assessment of the Aerosprockets bid because it'll shaft his own military career and future with corporate legal firms if he loses, or even wins and makes an enemy of McWhatsits' West Point classmates. And Spacely Aerosprockets will put McWhatsits on their board because he will still have contacts with those classmates and former subordinates to thereby smooth the process for future bids.

          No conspiratorial planning. Everyone involved knows how the world works and can do their own risk:reward assessments. They see their superiors do it a little bit at a time, and get promoted the more they do and say the right things.

    • greywarshark 16.2
      9 September 2019 at 9:51 pm

      Did anyone actually read and comment on the Israel – USA connected entity? It was new to me but seems to have been going for a while.

  17. phillip ure 17
    9 September 2019 at 1:08 pm

    our spy agencies did know about prisoners in 'secret locations'..

    but they did not know that prisoners were being tortured..

    mm-kay..?

    (they must be pretty crap at their job – in their intelligence gathering roles..eh..?..)

  18. SHG 18
    9 September 2019 at 1:54 pm

    From Vance's stuff article:

    Labour put together a panel to investigate the latest complaints. It was not independent: all three were on the party's New Zealand Council, its governing executive.

    None were professional counsellors or experts in dealing with the victims of assault.

    After four months, the panel found no reason to take disciplinary action.

    The complainants had no right to appeal, because such a step wasn't written into the party's constitution.

    The women were angry, disappointed, bewildered. So, Labour made an inadequate and token gesture, agreeing to a review (not of the allegations, but of the process).

    But they appointed the party's solicitor, a lawyer from the same Wellington firm that carried out the external youth camp review.

    What the actual f*ck, how is that acceptable for the Labour Party in the year 2019?

    • ianmac 18.1
      9 September 2019 at 2:23 pm

      If there were grounds for a complaint they should make it to Parliamentary Services or the Police. Mallard says no complaints have been made or am I misinformed.

      • SHG 18.1.1
        9 September 2019 at 2:27 pm

        Of course, I'm sure the women are making it all up, you know how females are

        [How do you think you posting sarcastic and stereotypical comments is helping? All you do is adding to the growing pile of increasingly poor and insensitive comments here. By doing so, you are creating an atmosphere and environment that is not positive, which I find ironic but not amusing – Incognito]

        • Incognito 18.1.1.1
          9 September 2019 at 2:35 pm

          See my Moderation note @ 2:27 PM.

          • SHG 18.1.1.1.1
            9 September 2019 at 2:45 pm

            I know, the truly distressing thing about this whole affair is the proliferation of sarcastic comments. That's what we should be focusing on.

            [A mature way of dealing with it is what is I’m asking for. If people can’t or don’t want to oblige I will temporarily remove them so that others can – Incognito]

            • Sacha 18.1.1.1.1.1
              9 September 2019 at 2:52 pm

              It is a risky topic to be playful with.

              • Incognito …
                9 September 2019 at 2:53 pm

                Very risky.

              • Robert Guyton …
                9 September 2019 at 4:38 pm

                Sure is (was). Can there be an opportunity to explore why it's so risky to discuss issues of this nature; where the traps lie, what they look like, why people, including commenters here, fall into them, how to avoid them and so on. Without citing these particular issues, could some exploration be had as to how we could, collectively and individually, approach topics of this nature in a manner that would engender fair and productive discourse and a chance to learn how others view/feel about/react to, such topics? I know some commenters and authors here have considered views on this; how about bringing the rest of us into the fold: this sort of messy thread will keep happening unless we try to unravel the knots. Apologies if it's been done before and I've missed the message, but you know, some of us learn at a glacial pace.

                • Sacha …
                  9 September 2019 at 5:06 pm

                  Robert, can I instead suggest doing some research about this yourself and bringing it back here? Otherwise it can become another situation where men expect women to do our emotional/communicative work for us. And there's no better way to learn than to teach.

                  Ah, see Weka below: https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-09-09-2019/#comment-1653401

                  • Robert Guyton …
                    9 September 2019 at 5:38 pm

                    Thanks, Sacha. I read weka's excellent explanation and believe I've understood (thanks, weka) and also the comments of which Molly's moved me most where she said:

                    "Weka is asking men contributors to listen first, and see whether their input is 1. required at all, 2. knowledgeable about rape culture and 3. helpful.

                    If not, then they don’t have to enter the discussion, although they can ask thoughtful questions. It leaves the space open for progressive voices."

                    So, my apologies to all and there'll be no more vroom vroom from me.

            • Incognito 18.1.1.1.1.2
              9 September 2019 at 2:52 pm

              See my Moderation note @ 2:45 PM.

            • Jimmy 18.1.1.1.1.3
              9 September 2019 at 3:06 pm

              I think peoples frustrations are coming through with the actions (or lack of actions) taken so far by the party officials.

      • McFlock 18.1.2
        9 September 2019 at 3:33 pm

        No.

        The complainants should be supported if they take it to the employer or the police, but there's no "shoulds" for the complainants themselves.

        This inability to deal with sexual assault complaints is the sort of festering abcess that will steadily weaken Labour, and rightly so. It's unacceptable, and is obviously an entrenched problem within the party.

        The attempts so far by Labour to deal with this issue have been hamfisted, defensive, prescriptive, and incompetent. They need a clear pathway for complainants, genuinely independent and fair investigations, and a way to resolve ongoing disputes if they decide "he said/ she said" means "nothing can be done".

        To put it bluntly, they're risking a "Catholic Church" scenario of leaving the guy in a position to abuse after multiple complaints. No matter how important they think he is, he ain't worth that.

    • Puckish Rogue 18.2
      9 September 2019 at 2:29 pm

      It appears to be acceptable as he seems to be very important to Labours reelection chances and shes just an ordinary, unimportant, no name women

      • JohnP 18.2.1
        9 September 2019 at 2:45 pm

        It's not wholly surprising that Labour's party structure appears unfit for purpose when it comes under even the lightest of pressure in terms of these allegations and the handling of them, is it?

        • SHG 18.2.1.1
          9 September 2019 at 2:48 pm

          As a Green voter my position is: burn the f*cking Labour Party to the ground. Eject every one of the party elite that enables this toxic club of sex predators that is eating the party's young.

      • SHG 18.2.2
        9 September 2019 at 3:02 pm

        https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/09-09-2019/editorial-labour-has-failed-vulnerable-young-members-for-second-time-there-must-be-consequences/

        Read this timeline and feel your jaw drop at how totally transparent the Labour machine's defensive strategy is. "You never said sexual assault" "well ok maybe you did say sexual assault but it's not in any documents" "well yes ok it's in the name of the file but you should have made more noise when we emailed it to you" "well ok we didn't actually email it to you… lol we emailed it to the alleged offender instead and now he knows everything you’re claiming”

        these are the actions of an organisation trying to grind down and destroy a young woman.

        • JohnP 18.2.2.1
          9 September 2019 at 3:06 pm

          Vaguely reminiscent of Sir Humphrey's explanation of the purpose of minutes in Yes Prime Minister.

          It is characteristic of all committee discussions and decisions that every member has a vivid recollection of them and that every member’s recollection of them differs violently from every other member’s recollection. Consequently, we accept the convention that the official decisions are those and only those which have been officially recorded in the minutes by the officials, from which it emerges with an elegant inevitability that any decision which has been officially reached will have been officially recorded in the minutes by the officials and any decision which is not recorded in the minutes has not been officially reached even if one or more members believe they can recollect it, so in this particular case, if the decision had been officially reached it would have been officially recorded in the minutes by the officials, and it isn’t so it wasn’t.

        • Puckish Rogue 18.2.2.2
          9 September 2019 at 3:08 pm

          Don't worry about it, Jacindas got it sorted:

          https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12266003&ref=clavis

          My view is that if something as left wing as The Spinoff is piling into this, eventually, then something really big must be happening

          [Do you think this is funny and a matter of amusement and cheap entertainment? I’m rapidly losing my ‘sense of funny’ with some of the commentary here – Incognito]

          • Incognito 18.2.2.2.1
            9 September 2019 at 3:20 pm

            See my Moderation note @ 3:08 PM.

          • Puckish Rogue 18.2.2.2.2
            9 September 2019 at 3:30 pm

            I'm not trying to be funny. I'm trying to get people on this blog (not all on the left of course) to face up to what their party is, was and has become all in the pursuit of power (the silence is deafening)

            I'm hoping that members of the Labour will become so embarrased and incensed that they'll start writing to their MPs demanding action

            I'm hoping that any left MPs or staff that read these comments might start to think that throwing the victims under a bus was maybe a bad idea

            Hell maybe even a post on here absolutely condemning the actions might be an idea.

            [Oh, you were not trying to be funny. So, what was your intention with this completely irrelevant attempt at distraction and/or to drag the PM and her young daughter into the cesspit:

            Don’t worry about it, Jacindas got it sorted:

            https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12266003&ref=clavis

            Please don’t insult my intelligence again – Incognito]

            • marty mars 18.2.2.2.2.1
              9 September 2019 at 3:33 pm

              bullshit – you are so transparent – scoring points from suffering is so gnatty – laugh your head off goon – and this from the judith collins for PM braintrust too –

              • Puckish Rogue …
                9 September 2019 at 3:38 pm

                Own it marty, own it like you expect every National voter to own whatever National does.

                • marty mars …
                  9 September 2019 at 3:49 pm

                  perhaps you are proud of your behaviour and comments today – for me it solidifies why you are a fanatic judith collins for PM pusher

            • Incognito 18.2.2.2.2.2
              9 September 2019 at 3:38 pm

              See my Moderation note @ 3:30 PM.

            • Puckish Rogue 18.2.2.2.2.3
              9 September 2019 at 3:41 pm

              Thats cool, your blog your rules, warning received, noted and taken on board.

              • Incognito …
                9 September 2019 at 4:16 pm

                Thanks. FWIW, the rules are in place because they work well to optimise freedom of expression and debate, not because of some ‘arbitrary authoritarian personality flaw’ 😉

                I’d rather not have to moderate here and prefer that everybody is mature enough to tread lightly around sensitive topics. Please note that this is a personal comment and not a moderation note.

            • weka 18.2.2.2.2.4
              9 September 2019 at 3:42 pm

              PR, maybe try supporting women and feminists to write and comment here, and then you will see more criticism of Labour over this. There are reasons why there aren't any regular women writing here on issues that affect women.

              I don't think a post should go up at the moment on this because the commentariat can't be trusted to talk about rape culture in a way that will make the discussion accessible for women (that's a commenter, author and moderator issue). This is not a new issue, it's a long standing one.

              "I'm trying to get people on this blog (not all on the left of course) to face up to what their party is"

              A reminder that making out people here are Labour members generally pisses off the people who aren't (which is most of us).

              Also, telling us what to write tends to piss off authors, especially where there is an implied criticism that we are avoiding writing about this to protect Labour. Doubly pissing me off because I don't feel free to write about women's issues. If this generally matters to you (sexual assault) then be more supportive of women writers and commenters here and create a space that makes it easier for us to take part.

              • Puckish Rogue …
                9 September 2019 at 3:47 pm

                I disagree with some of your points however I agree with some of them as well so I'll back off this subject

              • adam …
                9 September 2019 at 4:10 pm

                My problem is talking about alligations and making a political football out of it helps no one.

                It does not help the women involved, it does not help the investigation and it does not help getting to the truth.

                Sure we should have a discussion after we know ALL, or at the very least most of the facts. Until then it's just shitty politics and dick waving.

                • weka …
                  9 September 2019 at 4:16 pm

                  I agree about the politicking and I'll be keeping an eye on that.

                  Can't really stop people taking about it though, and given this is now a pattern of behaviour with Labour, I think the conversation needs to be had because they're not handling these issues well and they've had the opportunity to. I haven't read up on the ones this week, so I don't know how much information is out there.

                  What would really help here and now would be for men (left and right) to make this space better for *women to be talking in. Today isn't the worst conversation about rape on TS by any means, but it's still not good. Am noting the number of comments and how few are by women.

                  • adam …
                    9 September 2019 at 4:29 pm

                    I agree – there is a difference between how the labour party is dealing with the issue. And the issue itself.

                    But on this topic, most are really bad at separating the two. Hell I'm vocal in my attacks on labour on many issues (mainly economic) – but on this one we won't get a good/safe/robust debate until we can seperate the two issues. That won't happen whilst the point score and other BS is still prominent.

                    • weka …
                      9 September 2019 at 11:26 pm

                      I think we won't get a good/safe/robust debate until we sort the cultural issues on TS that suppress women's voices.

                      It's not *that hard to moderate conversations like this. But it needs support to do so.

                    • lprent []
                      10 September 2019 at 2:04 am

                      The biggest cultural issue for me isn’t cultural – it is simply a lack of time. I have limited time for almost everything at present apart from work, supporting my partners work, and deep learning a new operating system (android), a number of new libraries (android UI + NDK) and languages (kotlin) in my spare time as this (and last) years professional development.

                      Not helped at present by the weather. You start to notice the squally weather when the wind starts to howl up your bike poncho as you struggle up the Grafton Gully bike way in the rain :). I’m looking around for a set of rain over trousers. Looks like Ground Effect Splashdowns will do what I need.

                      I suspect a different (but much the same) set of factors are having the same effect on mickey at present. My life seems to have been getting quite constrained recently.

                    • Rapunzel …
                      10 September 2019 at 6:31 am

                      I realise today after some thought, based on past personal opinion, that there is quite a bif "difference" between "managing" and dealing with a situation.

                      One thing is clear to me now is that the courage of the victim of the abuse in pursuing the exposure of the offence and the "managment" of it, because that seems to have been all it was, is a lesson to all and one that needs to be seen as an opportunity.

                      It's political nature means it is of interest to media, I hope they stick to the facts and that the lessons hopefully eventually learned breaks down the silence that shields every similar action and behaviour in work places and in homes.

                      The ability of one or just a few selfish and self-indulgent individuals to negatively impact others is at the heart of this and many of the "ills" NZ faces. That needs to be turned around and the bravery of this victim could finally be the catalyst for change.

                  • Pete George …
                    9 September 2019 at 4:35 pm

                    "What would really help here and now would be for men (left and right) to make this space better for *women to be talking in."

                    That would be a good aim for everyone.

                    But really the only way for men to deal with these discussion s better is to be involved in them. I note that men have been victims of the Labour linked issues too. It isn't a female only problem.

                    I'd also like to point out that there are mixed signals for men – sometimes told to keep out of 'women's' topics, but sometimes condemned for tacit acceptance of abuse through silence.

                    I personally think that it's important for men to condemn known and proven abuses by men, be it against women or men.

                    There's no easy answers. We're all learning to deal better with one of the most damaging issues faced by our society – sexual violence and general violence (along with abuse of power).

                    • weka …
                      9 September 2019 at 5:03 pm

                      I wrote about it 18 months ago when a previous round of issues with Labour's handling of rape culture came up,

                      https://thestandard.org.nz/talking-about-sexual-assault/

                      Men do need to be involved, but in this situation, on TS, that shouldn't be at the expense of women being involved. Which is what usually happens. You can read the middle of that post for my suggestions on how men can take part. Sometimes listening and learning, or just asking questions, is the appropriate thing to do.

                      I had no problem with your initial comment today, linking to Vance and Mau's article. It's an important topic and needs discussion. Unfortunately the commentariat here still isn't very good at doing that (although today is less terrible than in the past).

                      Fwiw, if you find it hard to listen to the women here, or there aren't any around, there are some men whose voices are usually handling the topic well. McFlock is one of the ones today.

                      RW men and centrists like yourself are going to struggle to be taken at face value where you have a history of criticising Labour and not speaking up for women. Some of the RW men are politicising rape culture. Learning how not to do that would be a really good start.

                      I haven't had time to read through all the comments so it's possibly I am missing some things.

                    • Pete George …
                      9 September 2019 at 6:14 pm

                      "Fwiw, if you find it hard to listen to the women here"

                      An odd comment. I view comments based on content and tone, not by gender. I have long promoted diversity in discussion, with gender being one aspect. I have addressed sexist attacks when they occur (and they do).

                      "RW men and centrists like yourself"

                      Prejudging me in an inaccurate box suggests you don't know my politics well at all.

                      "where you have a history of criticising Labour"

                      I also have a history of criticising National, Greens, NZ First and Act, and other parties. I also have a history of promoting policies and praising parties and politicians across the spectrum.

                      But I would prefer people actually judged the content of comments I post without misconceived ideas of what has happened here in the past.

                      "and not speaking up for women" I have longed supported women speaking up for themselves, as well as speaking up on issues that impact on women.

                      "Some of the RW men are politicising rape culture."

                      That sounds like politicising a problem that I've seen right across the spectrum, including here.

                      "it's possibly I am missing some things"

                      Possibly you are.

                      For better trans-gender discourse men need to listen better to women – and women should perhaps be prepared to listen better to a range of male inputs.

                      For decades in my working and personal life I have interacted with including talking issues with women significantly more than with men. And with blog posting I often sounded out the views of women to get their perspective, mores so than with men.

                  • Rapunzel …
                    9 September 2019 at 4:57 pm

                    Ok I am a woman not young but also not elderly with daughters and grand-daughters, and in fact grandsons who we now tell to be careful about any situations they might find themselves in also.

                    If a situation arose it would be "talked about" maybe we are lucky but I am having difficulty in that context to understand being able to "talk" to media and not the police.

                    Also having had a daughter in the NZ Navy in the early '90s we as a family are well aware of what can happen, it needs to be met with prompt and very loud action.

                    • weka …
                      9 September 2019 at 5:24 pm

                      I haven't read the reports yet, but the fact that it is Vance and Mau tells me a lot. They've done the hard yards on reporting on rape culture, #metoo and changing reporting within their own profession. They're compassionate and socially intelligent on the issue of sexual assault. They will be prioritising the wellbeing of anyone who comes to them to talk about sexual assault. My guess is that they were trusted.

                      The police on the other hand have a substantial history of supporting or being active participants in rape culture. Roast busters, what happened to Louise Nicholas, general very low investigation and convictions rates. Some things have change in recent years, but I think many women would think twice about taking allegations to the police, especially where the rapist holds a position of power in society. Women are routinely disbelieved and blamed across society, so entering a system that doubles down on that is not for the faint hearted or often the recently traumatised.

                    • Chris T …
                      9 September 2019 at 5:27 pm

                      Maybe they are worried about the consequences, career wise, or have other issues going on in their lives where they want justice, but don't want to be dragged through the courts.

                      Could be a lot of things

                  • Anne …
                    9 September 2019 at 5:08 pm

                    …given this is now a pattern of behaviour with Labour, I think the conversation needs to be had because they're not handling these issues well and they've had the opportunity to.

                    Just walked into this conversation so don't know how it started, but agree with you weka.

                    Indeed the whole story is veiled in a certain amount of mystery. I can understand why an individual is too afraid to go to the police. After a long period of stalking plus other incidents, I was too afraid to go back to the police (after discovering the person's identity) because of the way I was previously treated by them. But I don't understand why all seven of them have not taken a complaint to Parliamentary Services.

                    Having said that, it looks on the surface like the Labour hierarchy have collectively buried their heads in the sand on this one in the hope it might go away. Whoever is advising them is not doing a good job.

                    • weka …
                      9 September 2019 at 5:26 pm

                      I haven't caught up on the details yet either, but agree that Labour are handling these issues well and I think it's probably a cultural issue high up in the party.

                    • Anne …
                      9 September 2019 at 5:51 pm

                      @weka

                      Yes, it is a cultural issue in the sense it is unconscious bias against the word of women. In other words women are far less likely to be believed than the men and I suspect this is what happened in this case.

                      But of course its only speculation until the appointed QC comes up with the facts of the case.

                    • weka …
                      9 September 2019 at 5:56 pm

                      just reading the Spinoff editorial, that's pretty damning stuff in terms of process. Can't tell if it's incompetence or protecting someone/something, but yes, someone independent looking at the facts who can then tell Labour how to get their shit together would help a lot.

                      I just commented on twitter that I grew up watching Muldoon's bullying and drunkeness, and I don't think that much has changed, so the idea that parliament is a safe place makes no sense to me. Some people need to open their eyes.

                    • Chris T …
                      9 September 2019 at 11:28 pm

                      I agree it is burying their heads in the sands, but the problem is I can't voice the obvious reason as to why in my opinion they were, as it would probably mean a banning, for a month.

                      [lprent: You above all people should know how this operates. You usually don’t get bans for what you say. You usually get bans for not being able to support idiot assertions. Essentially from pulling crap ‘that everyone knows’ out of your arse stating it as a fact and then running away from responsibility for your assertions.

                      To make an obvious assertion – you just fit the classic sterrotype of the classic kiwi gendered fool who “… eats shoots and leaves” and then expects everyone else to agree that it is a great way to operate. Personally I just find it mischievous and unhelpful for a robust debate and I find the whining as you get your arse kicked for being a fool to just be repetitive and boring.

                      But always compliment progress for small children it is really good that you’re starting to think ahead enough to foresee the the blindingly obvious future consequences. ]

                  • Climaction …
                    9 September 2019 at 6:34 pm

                    it’d be a safer place if harmful actions weren’t allowed to be minimised by men like dukeofurl in a partisan fashion, then idiots like PR, SHG and Sam C wouldn’t be able to treat this as a political / labour only, point scoring exercise. Roberts pithy dismissals don’t help the conversation either.

                    Left supporters should be seeing the support networks visibly in place immediately to move the conversation away from power struggles and partisan divides. As long as the conversation remains there it doesn’t feel safe to comment on anything but the lack of support

                    • Sam C …
                      9 September 2019 at 8:52 pm

                      As a father of two daughters and the brother of a sister systematically abused in her workplace over a number of years, I can assure you I’m not using this as a point scoring exercise.

                      Having mopped up the consequences of this toxic shit one too many times, it is high time we called people and organisations out on this stuff, regardless of our political stripes.

                    • weka …
                      9 September 2019 at 11:21 pm

                      I hear you Climaction. It's a catch 22. Unless we get more feminists writing and commenting here, it's hard to change the culture, but we have to change the culture to get more women writing.

                • Pete George …
                  9 September 2019 at 4:24 pm

                  I don't think either The Spinoff nor Stuff are going anywhere near political kicking. The accounts are about party members very disappointed with their own party's handling of their complaints and the overall problem and processes dealing with it.

                  "It does not help the women involved"

                  It appears that women chose to get the media involved because of their dissatisfaction with their party's handling of their complaints.

                  'Sarah' in the Spinoff story said that publicising things via Paula Bennett was "a good way" of breaking the silence.

                  The pressure mounted after National MP Paula Bennett revealed that one of the complainants had approached her. “The woman has taken the extraordinary step of contacting me because they are not being listened to,” she told Newstalk ZB. “They are having panic attacks and are anxious.”

                  Neither Jamie nor Sarah was involved in the approach to Bennett. Her involvement made a difference, however, said Jamie. They all wanted to see the silence broken, and “the deputy leader of the opposition asking questions and making a story out of it was a good way of it happening.”

                  I can imagine that for women who have been traumatised by abuses of power of a sexual nature to go public indicates they are deeply dissatisfied with how their complaints have been handled, and seem to be putting greater good (jolting Labour to accept proper responsibility via publicity) ahead of their own interests.

                  • adam …
                    9 September 2019 at 4:40 pm

                    And that is the women's choice to talk to the media, and anyone else who will help, I'm glad they did. You will remember Pete George the young women who had her hair pulled did the same thing by going to the Daily Blog.

                    That said, I think your bias is showing about those two outlets not playing games with these young women's lives for political and profit purposes.

                    I also think that a political party doing it's own investigation over sexual assault and sexual harassment claims is horse shit (no matter what side of the divide). It should be done by an outside source. The police or someone else. But, not, not, not by journalists.

              • Robert Guyton …
                9 September 2019 at 4:47 pm

                "I don't think a post should go up at the moment on this because the commentariat can't be trusted to talk about rape culture in a way that will make the discussion accessible for women (that's a commenter, author and moderator issue). This is not a new issue, it's a long standing one."

                Any suggestions as to how we might all repair that problem? Fighting small fires set by the unwary/unaware/downright stupid smiley doesn't seem ideal.

                • weka …
                  9 September 2019 at 5:29 pm

                  None of it is ideal. The biggest issue for me today is that I'm the only feminist moderator (or regular author), and that is part of a much bigger problem. So fighting small fires is probably all that is going to happen at the moment.

                  You can have a read of this that I wrote 18 months ago, about how to discuss sexual assault on TS. I need to update that, but the gist of it probably still stands.

                  https://thestandard.org.nz/talking-about-sexual-assault/

                  Asking about how to talk about this is a good place to start.

                • Cricklewood …
                  9 September 2019 at 8:00 pm

                  I've been reading and occasionally commenting here for 6 or 7 years… the amount of shit / pile ons the feminist authors and commentors have had to put up with…. it's a marvel there are any left.

                  Seems to me that the shitty attutudes that make it so hard here also prevail in the Labour party hierarchy.

            • McFlock 18.2.2.2.2.5
              9 September 2019 at 4:01 pm

              I mean, I agree with you on this point.

              But aren't you the guy who's a Judith Collins fanboi, you know, the politician who made a witticism about the prison violence (including sexual violence) that would result from her double-bunking policy?

  19. Chris T 19
    9 September 2019 at 5:24 pm

    Forgive me if this is a stupid question, but can’t Ardern not just ask for the police to investigate the matter even without a police complaint?

    At least then the investigation would have some sort of semblance of being independent.

    Unless I am wrong and she can't, and it is a stupid question.

    Just being the head honcho and that, I would assume she can.

    • phillip ure 19.1
      9 September 2019 at 5:47 pm

      ardern sez she was told the assaults were not sexual..

      that she will not say she has confidence in party president..

      a q.c. is making an independent inquiry..

      • Chris T 19.1.1
        9 September 2019 at 5:50 pm

        Well she has known since it started being reported, but better late than never.

        It is allegations of sexual assault and as such the police should be involved.

    • lprent 19.2
      9 September 2019 at 6:10 pm

      … can’t Ardern not just ask for the police to investigate the matter even without a police complaint?

      The short answer is no.

      Like any member of the public who observes or finds out something that may be unlawful, she can inform them those facts. She cannot ask them to investigate unless she is willing to lay a complaint, and that requires that she has to show some direct consequence to her of an unlawful act.

      There is some pretty direct parts of the Summary Offences Act – like this:- http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1981/0113/latest/DLM53580.html

      The police aren't employed to act as some kind of private security force – regardless of what Boris Johnson (and some of our more ridiculous loudmouths) appear to think.

      I took about 6 months to decide to lay a complaint with the police about Cameron Slater paying someone thousands of dollars to hack my computers. That was because it was all hearsay and I had no direct observed knowledge of the facts.

      That was despite having to waste most of a week of my time scanning logs and increasing defences against direct attacks.

      It took a lot to convince me – because unlike you I actually am aware of the laws. I’m happy to raise your level of awareness as well.

      Unlike Cameron Slater I also default to obeying them unless I have a really good reason not to.

    • Sacha 19.3
      9 September 2019 at 6:12 pm

      Ardern is no more the head honcho of her party than Bridges is of his. Just of the parliamentary caucus part of it.

    • Andre 19.4
      9 September 2019 at 6:24 pm

      Whether or not police operational decisions are directed by the head of government is one of the things that differentiates between liberal democracies and authoritarian and totalitarian states.

      • Chris T 19.4.1
        9 September 2019 at 6:27 pm

        Probably a very good thing I guess.

        • Andre 19.4.1.1
          9 September 2019 at 6:29 pm

          Yeah, it's quite an important safeguard for freedom. Even though there will be many individual operational decisions made by police that we as individuals strongly disagree with.

  20. Chris T 20
    9 September 2019 at 6:12 pm

    It might be an issue of the size of our country meaning the sites wouldn’t care, but I can't see why the govt just don't follow Aussies lead.

    "Telcos ordered to block eight websites under new Christchurch attack rules"

    https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/telcos-ordered-to-block-eight-websites-under-new-christchurch-attack-rules-20190906-p52oo7.html

    • Sacha 20.1
      9 September 2019 at 6:15 pm

      Our telcos did not need the govt to tell them to block relevant content and sites at the time.

  21. Chris T 21
    9 September 2019 at 6:17 pm

    Neither did theirs, the govt has ordered an extension.

    "While the sites have already been blocked voluntarily by the telcos for five months, the violent material hasn't been removed leading the eSafety Commissioner to formally order an additional six months' block."

  22. vto 22
    9 September 2019 at 8:57 pm

    A fundamental problem with diversity is the requirement for reference to gender age race and more… the very matter it is seeking to overcome…

    Isn't it?

    • Adam Ash 22.1
      9 September 2019 at 10:17 pm

      Indeed VTO. In an ideal constitutional and legislative situation, the only 'rights' defined should be to prevent others interfering with your life, liberty and property. Include in that the liberty to speak your mind.
      As soon as an elected politician bows to pressure to confer some specific right upon somebody, she immediately has to conflict with the 'ordinary man's' rights by stealing from him to give to the beneficiary of the new law.
      Thus as soon as we define a 'right' to diversity, we must take away from the ordinary man his/her right to be what ever she-he wants to be, and instead she-he must fit into one category or the other, in order to be legally recognised. The ability to be somewhere on a continuum of gender or racial identity is lost because we have only the defined number of boxes to tick on the form.
      The best thing that can be done for 'diversity' and 'equal opportunity' laws is to remove all laws which refer to gender, race, creed and any other identifying characteristics. That would return us to a level playing field again, and everything would work out 'naturally' Some will not like the natural outcome, of course – they will scream 'prejudice' although what is happening is just natural, and fair for one and all.

  23. greywarshark 23
    9 September 2019 at 9:41 pm

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/opinion-analysis/115597414/who-pays-and-who-doesnt-pay-when-a-company-fails

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2019/09/06/794310/two-building-companies-liquidatedcrane-firm-in-receivership

    (It's high time contractors clubbed together and had a permanent agent looking after their interests. They have been slack in the past, holding a meeting, sharing grievances and then most not bothering to go further. So they are the authors of their own misfortune. Maybe this will change now.)

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/business/398443/calls-for-more-leadership-accountability-when-companies-fail

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/115179394/troubled-construction-sector-one-of-the-most-profitable

    Construction companies had a return on equity in 2018 of about 30 per cent. It reached as high as 43 per cent between 2013 and 2018.

    Economist Bill Rosenberg says construction is the second highest profitable industry sector after mining.

    ABIGAIL DOUGHERTY/STUFF

    Economist Bill Rosenberg says construction is the second highest profitable industry sector after mining.

    Rosenberg said the figure was about three times the average for all industries such as manufacturing, utilities, various services, transport and retail.

    He initially thought the data was incorrect because of the many stories he heard about building firms such as Arrow International collapsing and the tribulations facing Fletcher Building.

    Rosenberg asked Statistics NZ, "Is there something I am overlooking here?" Statistics NZ replied, "No. We believe current return on equity figures are a good reflection of what happens in the construction industry at present".

    While some companies had gone on a "feeding frenzy" and over-extended themselves, construction industry profits were high overall, Rosenberg said. The only higher sector for return on equity was mining.

    At the same time, a large proportion of construction company earnings went on wages compared with some other sectors.

  24. greywarshark 24
    9 September 2019 at 9:56 pm

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/398442/hutt-city-council-candidate-s-billboards-scrawled-with-racist-slogans

    This candidate was confronted by an aggressive man who stated he would deface all her billboards as she replaced them. Nasty. But a chance for some more publicity if she offered to have a meeting with him where he would state his grievances publicly – there should be media at the meeting.

    He had written something about his business going to the ground. So he must have a story to tell.

  25. Eco maori 25
    11 September 2019 at 8:38 am

    Kia Ora Newshub.

    It would be great to have SuperRugby in the region I can remember 10 years ago all the big games were full fans.

    Rotorua becaming the first bilingual City in Aotearoa make me have faith that our Tangata Whenua O Aotearoa Culture will stay Mana.

    I agree we're need to listen to our tamariki and show them aroha one negative interaction clears 9 good things out of there minds.One should tell there tamariki they aroha them even when we disagree.

    I quite like the Irish Kiwi

    Dr Martin tech predicting tangata heart attack cool. Tech is going to in just about everything we do.

    Let's hope that there are no lives lost in the Australian Bush fires.

    Australia need to stop using water to grow cotton and other high water use industrial thing like coal production and burning coal for power. Solar and wind power use bugger all water.Save Wai for there beautiful wild life. Trying to truck fish to Awa with water is a ambulance at the bottom of the hill tactic

    Peter Mihaere CEO of a stand against slavery great cause there should be NO tangata treated like that in the year 2019.

    Ka kite Ano

  26. Eco maori 26
    11 September 2019 at 6:27 pm

    Kia Ora Newshub.

    It good that there is so justice for Ann Tollys case and for her whanau who were championing her case.

    I think it's stinks that air nz is trying to trade mark a Te reo Maori word.

    Well one has to buy the tools/ plant to do the job the Auckland cranes are needed to do the job more efficiently.

    That's is the correct move to prioritise tamariki for measles vaxcernation as they are the most valuable.

    That's good to know having a nap 2 x a week reduces your heart attack risk by 40 % That is something Dairy farmers do with the early starts.

    Any Tawhirimate in my neck of the motu Ingrid I hope so

    Ka kite Ano

  27. Eco maori 27
    11 September 2019 at 6:46 pm

    Kia Ora Te Ao Maori News.

    I agree the far north tangata whenua should stop the heavy machinery from driving on the beach collecting muscle spat going back to hand gathering it will save the tuatua and create mahi for the locals.

    I think it's stupid people trying to block a small block of land being returned to Tangata Whenua of Tauranga. Tangata Whenua O Aotearoa lost millions of hectare of land.

    Maori tourism Trust connecting to China that's the way whanau look for people of similar cultures to tau toko our business.

    There you go Whanau Mike King is correct.

    Ka kite Ano.

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