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Open mike 10/06/2021

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, June 10th, 2021 - 148 comments
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148 comments on “Open mike 10/06/2021 ”

  1. Sabine 1


    Stop pleading with people who can't be bothered, or don't want to be vaccinated and allow people who want to be vaccinated to get the jabs.
    Also stop sending out invites to people from the DHB and the GP at the same time to the same people. One could understand if there is some confusion if you can’t even get that right.

    • KSaysHi 1.1

      Hard to imagine the vaccine programme failing given the heavy coercion via media, and all that censorship.

      I'm fully expecting vaccine lotteries similar to those in the US and Canada to be rolled out next although it might be illegal here at present. Be surprised to see medical Drs speaking out against this type of manipulation if it does occur

      • Sabine 1.1.1

        Well i would be happy if they could just co-ordinate enough to send the same person to two different places at the same time because they are ovbiously on more then one list.

        After all is that not what a new IT system was invented? I have heard that from a few people now, specifically those that appear on different lists as they are healthcare workers, or in a particular age group and then again in a different group due to health reasons.

        I honestly don't care if people go for the vaccine or not – unless it is made mandatory you can't force people to get it, but you can prioritise those that WANT the vaccine, and then sweep up those that may change their mind over the time.

        I however am not happy about getting people back from Melbourne without a requirement to either go into quarantine or self isolate, but then the risk is acceptable to us unvaccinated. Right?

      • Anne 1.1.2

        … and all that censorship.

        What censorship? I've not heard of any. Unless you're referring to the conspiracy theories which people are rightfully encouraged to ignore.

        I agree with Sabine. Stop wasting time on the lazy and the doubters. I have a close relative who is 77 with underlying conditions (not overly serious but they exist) and he tried to get a jab from the one and only vaccine clinic in the North Shore region. He was turned down on the basis he was out of the zone. He lives in Devonport.

        Based on that premise it means all over 65s who live in the south of the region are currently out of luck – unless you received an official invitation to make a booking which only applies to a portion of the local elderly. Nobody seems to know why they got an invite and not the rest of us. The invitees I know don't know either.

        Bit of a mess here.

        • Rosemary McDonald

          What censorship? I've not heard of any.

          Excellent! It's working then.

          • mac1

            Clever response, Rosemary. It's very hard to identify good censorship.

            On the other hand, and by the same logic, how do we know we are being censored at all?

            How do you prove that something is not happening, especially when the proponents are saying it is happening but you don't know it is because that is the nature of censorship, od secrecy, and dare I say it, of conspiracy?

            I see the answer might be found below at #6 from Isaac. The key to it all……..

      • Drowsy M. Kram 1.1.3

        Coercion: the practice of persuading someone to do something by using force or threats

        Hard to imagine the vaccine programme failing given the heavy coercion via media, and all that censorship.

        What heavy coercion via media? If some do feel heavily coerced about anything in the NZ media, my advice is to limit their exposure to said media – a kind of reverse censorship. It's really easy as no-one can be coerced to 'consume' media offerings.

        I do hope that NZ's optional COVID-19 vaccination programme achieves it aims of limiting the spread of COVID-19 and/or the severity of symptoms, just like other optional vaccination programmes to protect against rotavirus, diphtheria, tetanus, whooping cough, polio, hepatitis B, Haemophilus influenzae type b, pneumococcal disease, chickenpox, measles, mumps, rubella, human papillomavirus, and shingles.

        No vaccine is 100% effective, as they all rely on immune systems, but their ‘prevent and protect‘ functions are, on balance, beneficial to human health.

        If you want to get vaccinated, or vaccinate your children, then go for it – I'm looking forward to getting my COVID-19 jabs – no (heavy) coercion via media required.

        • mauī

          "What heavy coercion via media?"

          Where have you been living for the past year? We get daily news about everything vaccine in the major print, radio, tv and internet news.

          Anyone with a negative view towards the vaccine is labelled "anti-vax", "vaccine hesitant", or a "conspiracy theorist".

          Anyone taking a critical look at what the media has been saying for months should clearly be able to see this bias.

          • McFlock

            Someone with a negative view towards anything would be "anti", or at least "hesitant", about that thing, no?

            How would reporting that be "bias"?

          • Drowsy M. Kram

            Coercion: the practice of persuading someone to do something by using force or threats

            Maui – yes, there's plenty of MSM coverage about COVID-19 vaccines, both positive and negative. As the global pandemic death toll closes in on 4 million tragic deaths (with the realistic death toll much higher) that's hardly surprising.

            As far as I can tell no Ministry of Health staff or reputable media outlets are concealing the fact that the Pfizer vaccine is effective for ‘only‘ ~19 of every 20 recipients, or that there is a (very very) tiny risk of significant side-effects. Just type "COVID vaccine side-effects" into a Google search to see for yourself.

            So if you believe that the media coverage amounts to "heavy coercion" = use of heavy force or heavy threats (to do what?), then we'll have to agree to disagree.

            Tbh, it saddens me that you, or anyone, might feel coerced by the release of factual information about the effects and side-effects of COVID-19 vaccines.


            Fwiw, vaccine hesitancy is fairly commonsense, and shouldn’t be confused or lumped in with ‘anti-vax’.

            • Incognito

              Maybe peer pressure or social pressure are better terms? There’s always pressure to conform to the majority view. I have to confess that I often like to give the finger to majority views and social ‘expectation’ especially when it there appears to have no solid foundation. I’ve learned to resist that temptation though because of OOS 😉

              • Drowsy M. Kram

                Hard to imagine the vaccine programme failing given the heavy coercion via media, and all that censorship.

                Hard to imagine anyone wanting the 'vaccine programme' to fail, but…

                Yep Incognito, pressure/encouragement from peers and wider society (including government agencies) to get vaccinated against COVID will be significant; certainly far greater than peer pressure to not get vaccinated.

                Just thought 'heavy coercion' was ott – more appropriate to describe the treatment of WWI conscientious objectors, 1951 Waterfront workers, or indeed events such as the Dawn and Urewera raids.

                Can't rule out the possibility that there are instances of "heavy coercion" to get vaccinated against COVID-19, but imho such a claim should be supported by at least one NZ example.

                I support the freedom of any NZer to remain unvaccinated, although it's reasonable that those in critical border control and healthcare roles who choose not to, or are unable to get vaccinated must accept redeployment to duties with a relatively low risk of COVID-19 infection.

                I have to confess that I often like to give the finger to majority views…

                I too have a propensity to be suspicious of majority views. Regarding this global pandemic, is there a credible minority view (not Plan B) that's advocating against the widespread use of effective COVID-19 vaccines?

                Potentially useful prediction of how much of the population needs to be vaccinated for herd immunity.

                Will be interesting to see if, like the 1918 'Spanish flu', this pandemic burns out, or whether it settles into a (hopefully low-level) 'virus-vaccine arms race'.

  2. Adrian Thornton 2

    Good news for the Left, Socialists look to be winning in elections in Peru, despite vicious attacks and smears from the local MSM….of course.

    Socialist Castillo clings on to tight lead in Peru election as count nears end


  3. Incognito 3

    The other side to the PHARMAC story by somebody who has at least has some inkling how things work – no mention of cycling & walking bridges anywhere 🙂


    • Sabine 3.1

      Penny Tucker is concerned that there are “miracle drugs and biologics that have transformed many conditions from a death sentence to a surmountable challenge” and blames the lack of supply of these squarely on Pharmac. She is disappointed that Pharmac’s budget is not part of the review and is critical of its bureaucracy.

      I acknowledge that she has declared no involvement with the pharmaceutical industry but her arguments sound about the same as those from Graeme Jarvis of Medicines New Zealand. She makes no mention of the role that the pharmaceutical industry plays in the difficulty of funding these.

      The headline “Pharmac works well. Unless you’re sick” is seriously misleading. The contrary is true for the vast majority of New Zealanders, who received pharmaceuticals worth $1.04 billion last year

      Funny thing is though, that this is true for both, Pharmac is ok for those that don't need extra super duper special medication, but for those that need it, Pharmac does not work quite so well. And for those that had their working meds changed to a cheaper alternative without consultation, Pharmacs decision can be well say challenging.


      But then, if this does not affect certain people, these same people might not give a dime that someone else is suffering.

      • ghostwhowalksnz 3.1.1

        Virtually every drug has side effects and often people have to stop taking them, luckily for me Pharmac had a second choice but because it was more expensive needed a specialist sign off.

        A bit baffled over a generic switch , but not surprised the concerns were from people with a 'mood related ' disorder or have been on a previous drug for a long time can forget the original adjustment wasnt easy either.

        Placebo and Nocebo effects show no active ingredient or no change in drug can still trigger side effects

    • Matiri 3.2

      Another side to the PHARMAC story from someone who would benefit from them being much more generous with funding certain miracle drugs and procedures if you read the media reports. I research the relevant medical publications and expert assessments relevant to my condition and conclude that PHARMAC decisions are robust and clinically sound in this respect.

    • woodart 3.3

      quite correct incognito. the usual moaners on here looking for a reason to whinge, should get out and pay full $$ for their meds. would make them stop and be very slightly grateful for pharmac(but probably not, too full of their own misery). their will ALWAYS be patients with unusual medical problems that need meds that arent subsidized, but with the HUGE range of meds for all sorts of conditions, that really is unavoidable. as someone who takes lots of meds, I am grateful for pharmac and how much they save me. a couple of the meds arent subsidized but winz often helps, and I figure if pharmac is saving me $50 on every ventolin inhaler, I can afford to put something toward meds they dont subsidize. too many on here are constantly whineing about how the gov isnt doing enough..get off your arse and help yourselves!!

    • bwaghorn 3.4

      Why does nobody go after the drug greedy companies, $70k a year for the latest alzheimer medicines, hell if they sold it for $10k a year I bet they would sell more than 7 times the amount.

      • Sabine 3.4.1

        the guys in the US ask that one too.

        Best one to ask this question is this Lady here……


      • Nic the NZer 3.4.2

        You think drug companies would be made more popular meerely by planning to increase alzheimer's patient numbers by 7 fold?

        • bwaghorn

          Not sure what you mean . My point us once a drug is developed selling more of it at a cheaper rate must increase profits, but they chose to be arsholes!!

          If the UN had balls or teeth they would sort this out . If companies are gouging fuck them and their patents just steal thier recipe.

          • Nic the NZer

            I have this strange belief that the demand for alzheimers treatment is less related to price and more related to the number of people with the condition. Especially in NZ where there is public funding.

            But if we take your reasoning as true then they are apparently surpressing alzheimers by 7x just by over charging. Maybe they could be asked to reduce the condition further by over charging even more?

      • weka 3.4.3

        lol, how very anti-capitalist. There are some things we are not allowed to touch, and big pharma is one of them. AIDS drugs in Africa being a prime example, but covid vaccines is fast catching up.

        • Drowsy M. Kram

          There are some things we are not allowed to touch, and big pharma is one of them.

          Maybe "we are not allowed to touch", but 'big pharma' occasionally takes its lumps.

          5 Famous Class Action Lawsuits Against Pharma Companies
          1. GlaxoSmithKline – Unlawful promotion of prescription drugs – $3bn

          And to think Glaxo started in NZ – "…symbolises the culture of innovation that New Zealand is known for around the world."

          Joseph Nathan and Co. was founded in 1873, as a general trading company in Wellington, New Zealand, by a Londoner, Joseph Edward Nathan. In 1904, it began producing a dried-milk baby food from excess milk produced on dairy farms near Bunnythorpe. The resulting product was first known as Defiance, then as Glaxo (from lacto), and sold with the slogan "Glaxo builds bonnie babies." The Glaxo Laboratories sign is still visible on what is now a car repair shop on the main street of Bunnythorpe.



          • Rosemary McDonald

            And our very own favourite Pfizer has had it's day in court…https://www.pharmaceutical-technology.com/features/biggest-pharmaceutical-lawsuits/

            …but if anything goes awry in the Dominican Republic with the Covid vaccine….Pfizer has well and truly protected it's butt.


            Pfizer has asked some Latin American countries for “indemnity from civil cases, meaning that the company would not be held liable for rare adverse effects or for its own acts of negligence, fraud or malice,” according to a recent report from the Bureau of Investigative Journalism. “This includes those linked to company practices – say, if Pfizer sent the wrong vaccine or made errors during manufacturing.” In comments featured in the Bureau of Investigative Journalism report, Georgetown Law professor Lawrence Gostin explained that “[s]ome liability protection is warranted, but certainly not for fraud, gross negligence, mismanagement, failure to follow good manufacturing practices.”

            (A copy of the contract is embedded in the article, and is written in both Spanish and English.)

            • Drowsy M. Kram

              yes And yet we NZers can't get enough of (some of) those wonder(ful) drugs!

      • Incognito 3.4.4

        Never heard of Dr Ben Goldacre?


  4. Prickles 4

    Chinese medicine to be included under the Health Practitioners Competence Assurance Act (HPCAA). Now that's a big step for the government.


    • weka 4.1

      What does the Act do?

      • Prickles 4.1.1

        Essentially the Act is about protection of the public – makes sure that all those who are covered by it have appropriate qualifications, standards and scopes of practice etc and prevents others who do not have the right training from being able to call themselves a doctor, nurse, physiotherapist or whatever other health profession.

        The Act covers all the health professions but until now the Chinese medicine practitioners have not been covered by it.

    • ghostwhowalksnz 4.2

      Its not medicine, its folk cures as my (indian) doctor calls them.
      Apart from acupuncture.

      • weka 4.2.1

        5,000 years of empirical practice, theory development and building knowledge. Not to diss folk medicine but TCM is a form of medicine that requires training to n complex theory and practice. What qualifications in TCM does your doctor have?

    • joe90 4.3

      So, lip service to the woo-believers while patients, families and communities are not only left to fund their own drugs, they're forced to stump up to administer life saving therapies to friends and loved ones.



      Because Keytruda is unfunded in New Zealand for all cancers other than advanced melanoma: The Ministry of Health has directed that public hospitals are not to administer unfunded medicines and therefore Keytruda can only be given in a private hospital setting.

      This directive adds another $27,000 on top of the $60,000 which pays for the administration, scans, oncologist fees and GST for the private hospital.


  5. greywarshark 5

    For reducing fossil fuels use coastal shipping? The Jane Gifford, a dainty looking scow is still going.



    • Stuart Munro 5.1

      My granddad had that boat for a few years.

      • greywarshark 5.1.1

        Looks like one of those reliable usefully shaped workhorses of the sea that could come into its own again do you think?

        I think ‘Jane’ had masts and they took them down. So sail and fuel enhancement – batteries?

          • greywarshark

            What a busy, demanding job being a seaman on a sailing ship eh!

            • KJT

              Well. It could be, at times.

              An awful lot of time spent waiting for wind and tide to be in the right direction, and for loading and discharging.

              A big contrast to a modern container ship working 24/7 day and night every day of the year.

              I worked years ago with many of the old scow sailors and several people who were on the Pamir.

              Most of them much preferred the more relaxed, old days.as

              Plenty of stories of days in the pub, waiting for wind and tide. One swore that the story of a scow spearing an, occupied, farmers dunny with the bowsprit while tacking up a creek, was true.

        • Stuart Munro

          Yeah, she had sails, but an engine too. You use the sails when you've got a bit of room, not up tidal creeks and such. Electrification is I think a later step for improving transport fuel efficiency – just getting freight off the roads is the first step, and given industry resistance, you'd want to see how that battle played out before electrifying our largely extinct coastal shipping.

          I think the government hasn't really given much thought to coastal shipping. You'd want to develop Clifford Bay or somewhere nearby, as the fairweather ferry port, and move freight through there when conditions allow – knocks a big chunk of fuel out of the interisland equation. And fuel = emissions.

          • greywarshark

            Oh dear Clifford Bay again. I knew it was a bit closer for trucks and the ferry. Now you say that it would be a better port from the weather situation. If it was open could Picton still be used by inter-islander for tourist purposes and the rail link? Would that be viable? Picton needs to use its investment in seagoing ventures, and they keep the town going. It would be bad for it to divert too much elsewhere.

            • Stuart Munro

              A port outside the Sounds saves about an hour on the ferry, together with some wake erosion. Picton will still be needed in strong easterlies apparently, so it doesn't close. Less ferries and more leisure craft can still keep it prosperous.

          • RedBaronCV

            I seem to have a vague memory of Gerry Brownlee selling the land at Clifford bay that was being held fr a port. My understanding was, if a breakwater was built, then the ferry trip from wellington is shorter, the trip to christchurch is shorter and the rail wagons don't have to be hauled over the Dashwood incline.

      • Macro 5.1.2

        The "Janey!" – Do you have the pamphlet written about her and the crew? A real work horse. The Warkworth Cement works started by Wilsons was dependent upon her fetching shell from the shell banks at Miranda in the Firth of Thames – where the godwits now feed. She is of course back at her old locality on the Maharangi River in Warkworth. My wife is an descendant of Davy Darroch who built her. Named after the ship which brought Davy and his father George and mother Nicholas to NZ in 1842. (Jane Gifford was the wife of the owner of the ship). Davy's tools are held in the Warkworth museum.

        • Stuart Munro

          I still have a copy of The Janey and Her Skipper – written by Ivy Collins – Reg's wife.

          He worked her pretty hard, loading shell and shingle by barrow as often as not. My understanding was he let her go when the rules changed requiring him to carry an engineer – which must have affronted someone who lost so much hair nursing a temperamental diesel into life with a blowtorch.

          • Macro


            I enjoyed reading a lent copy of it from a g'son of a former crew member. The family here have a fond attachment to the Janey and have a copy of the painting of the Jane Gifford and The Duchess of Argyll arrival in Auckland on the wall.

          • Macro

            Here she is approaching her berth at the Warkworth Wharf.

            • Stuart Munro

              Got to love anything schooner rigged – they always look like they're going a million miles an hour.

      • greywarshark 5.2.1

        Amongst the photogenic pictures of 'Jane' there were ads for Omaha Beach's Jane Gifford Place and this was put up only 2 years ago.

        Imagine waking to the gentle sounds of surf, leaping out of bed, a 3-minute stroll to watch the sun rise on the pristine, white sands of Omaha Beach. Walk your dog with a friend, cast your fishing rod or catch a wave, then wander back via the café

        I hope that people have finally caught up with the idea of – a Sea level rise b Weather bombs c King/queen tides more frequent d Huge waves from local or distant weather events. Just not what you want to wake up to and definitely not 'the gentle sounds of surf'.

        I hope too the Rip van Winkels don't wake up with a shock, and go waah Council, government, come and help us now we have been foolish and wilfully ignorant and invested in wet sand. Even the bible warns against that though note; it isn't the real estate 'profession' bible.

        ..shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. Matthew 7: 24-27

      • Stuart Munro 5.2.2

        Damn – I've never sailed on her – my marine career was mostly down south. Did the Foveaux yacht race a couple of seasons – never got up to Warkworth.

    • mac1 5.3

      The historical reason for Blenheim being where it is comes from the fact that it was the first firm land suitable for wagons to unload cargoes from coastal scows such as the Edwin Fox etc.

      It would be interesting to see the Clifford Bay proposal revisited in these changing times.

  6. joe90 6

    Had my first on Tuesday but sadly, I'm no Magneto.


  7. greywarshark 7

    Spite. There is a fair amount of it in politics and surrounds.

    Interesting thoughts – https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/queensbirthday/audio/2018798701/can-any-good-come-from-spite

    • greywarshark 7.1

      In this game you’re told you’re playing a game against somebody and that person has been given a pot of money which they must share with you. They may have $10 and make you an offer of $2.
      “And then you have a choice, you can choose to take that $2, which is real money, walk away and buy something, or you can decide to turn the offer down.

      But if you turn the offer down, then you leave with no money, and the other person also leaves with no money…”

      “But what they found was that if people were offered $2 out of a $10 pot then around half of people would turn that down.”
      This held true even for larger amounts of money, he says.

      “An American group then did it where it was $100 a game. And they still found that when people were offered 20 bucks out of that 100, around half would still turn it down. So even if there's quite a lot of money on the line people will still spitefully turn it down.

      “They turned it down because they didn't want the other person to get more money than they did.”
      This could simply be a fairness instinct manifesting itself, but other games show a darker impulse.

      The ‘Joy of Destruction’ game is when everybody has a task and earns the same amount for it.
      “At the end, you're asked under conditions of anonymity whether you'd like to destroy some of the other person's money just because you can do and about 40 percent of people spitefully choose to destroy the other person's money – just because they can.”

      What do you think. A bit of something, is worth more than a lot of nothing, all things being equal?

      • alwyn 7.1.1

        I have observed the instinct in cases where the person wasn't going to get anything but was simply jealous of someone they don't know being fortunate. The one where people will reject quite large sums still surprises me though. I simply don't understand the psychology of such people.

        In terms of the spite behavior though I can offer the variant I never understood either. An acquaintance of mine bought an old Rolls Royce a couple of years ago. It was about 30 years old and it only cost him about $15,000, ie the price of a 3 year old basic car. He just wanted to own one once in his life and it being old and a bit unreliable didn't bother him.

        It was totally ruined for him because he couldn't park it anywhere in Wellington. It would have some idiot run a coin down the side, just for spite it appeared. It happened to him 4 or 5 times in just a couple of months. Why did people behave that way? He got rid of it because the behavior of other people who were simply jealous of someone they didn't even know was too much for him.

      • Pat 7.1.2

        Nobody was earning, it was (potentially) fortuitous gain…the logical and fair thing to do was offer to split it….id suggest if that was done the uptake would be near universal.

      • Incognito 7.1.3

        I wonder if the outcome would have been different if it had been apples, pies or marbles, for example, instead of dollars. We seem to have an other-worldly relationship with money.

  8. Stuart Munro 8

    Chloe is in good form in the Guardian – a bit of common sense on renting.

    Under the government’s current plans it will be half a century before house prices return to affordability

    • gypsy 8.1

      I suspect Ashley Church may be rather better informed about housing affordability than Chloe. And I'd suggest Chloe may need to do more reading if she is seriously advocating for rent controls.

      • Incognito 8.1.1

        I suspect Ashley Church is not an elected MP with an electorate seat who is in Parliament for the whole of Aotearoa-New Zealand. You sure make some silly comments.

        • gypsy

          Being an elected MP does not make Chloe any more educated on housing affordability. That is abundantly clear from her comments.

          • Incognito

            Never said that. Point is that as an MP, she gets to make policy and decisions that affect many more than just a Real Estate lobby group. She’s accountable to all Kiwis. You’re betting on the wrong horse, but maybe you have an engrained bias against the Green Party or an agenda or both.

            • gypsy

              My comment was never about influence, it was about knowledge and experience.

              "I suspect Ashley Church may be rather better informed about housing affordability than Chloe."

              If Chloe wants to use her policy and decision making ability in a constructive way, she could a lot worse than to have a chat about housing affordability with someone with Ashley Church's experience.

              • Incognito

                So you did, which was a meaningless comment, at best, and more like an attack on a Green MP. For example, Andrew Little is not medically qualified in the slightest yet he’s the Minister of Health. The way it works is that Government MPs and Ministers get professional and expert advice from qualified people. I doubt Ashley Church is among those, for obvious reasons. National MPs OTOH might welcome it with open arms and lots of hugs & kisses; a few former MPs are now Real Estate agents I’ve heard.

                • gypsy

                  " I doubt Ashley Church is among those, for obvious reasons."

                  The only "obvious reason" would be that Church is informed, knowledgeable and experienced. Chloe is not. Which, despite your obvious misreading of my post, is why I suggested she does some more research.

      • Pat 8.1.2

        I suspect a property spruiker is the absolute last person you would seek information from regarding property affordability

        • gypsy

          In a choice between Ashley Church and Chloe Swarbrick, Chloe wouldn't even get second.

          • Stuart Munro

            Vox populi says otherwise – the only Ash I know of, except the man with the boomstick, is a doctor.

          • Drowsy M. Kram

            Thanks, gypsy, for that confirmation of where you're coming from.

            In a choice between [insert name here] and gypsy, gypsy wouldn't even get second.

            Sound familiar?

      • Stuart Munro 8.1.3

        By all means point to the errors in her reasoning – looked pretty good to me.

        • gypsy

          Look at Chloe's claims on housing affordability, then look at Ashley's Church's evidence based article. That's just a start.

          • Drowsy M. Kram

            Swarbrick/Church aren't the only ones making claims on housing affordability.

            CoreLogic report shows continued decline in housing affordability

            Rising unaffordability “nothing new

            CoreLogic notes that affordability analysis can rarely be based on absolute comparisons – it has to be an area’s figures measured relative to its own history or to other parts of the country. All in all, Mr Davidson says, “There is nothing new about increasing unaffordability – to combat it, New Zealand needs more supply of housing and more intensified housing – making use of prefab techniques and tiny housing.

            The key message from this report is that housing affordability worsened quite appreciably in the final three months of 2020 and any further declines will increase the divide between existing owners and those who aspire to buy, and lessen the pool of people who can actually enter the market, ensuring that this issue remains right at the top of the public agenda for some time to come.

            About CoreLogic
            With coverage of 99% of the New Zealand property market and more than 500 million decision points in our database, we're absolutely passionate about data accuracy which allows us to deliver on our promise of the most reliable and powerful property insights and analytics.

            Maybe Church's analysis is the odd one out, which would be odd indeed given that he's a former CEO of the Property Institute of New Zealand.

            That being said, maybe the recent tax changes for residential investment properties will begin to have an effect at the lower end of the property market.

            • gypsy

              I have the answer for you. It is in the words "final three months of 2020". Church's analysis covers a considerably longer time frame.

              “That being said, maybe the recent tax changes for residential investment properties will begin to have an effect at the lower end of the property market.”
              My personal view is they won’t, because there is still a huge issue with supply. Ashley Church, in his letter to the PM, points out that the biggest impediment to first home buyers is the deposit, and there are ways to fix that that the government could be considering.

          • Stuart Munro

            No, before you bring in your dodgy propagandist, you must answer Chloe's case.

            Church seems to be disqualified by avarice (he's a rentier) and inclination (he is involved with the untruthful and frankly toxic taxevader's "union") from meaningful commentary – if we wanted even more failed Chicago school bullshit, we need only consult the ape-descended primates on Kiwibog.

            • gypsy

              So being a rentier disqualifies a person from having an informed opinion on the property market? That's like saying anyone who benefits financially from climate change policy is disqualified from having a qualified on opinion on climate change. It's silly.

              As for Chloe's case, I have answered it. She speaks about it taking decades for housing to return to affordability, but as Ashley Church points out, housing is more affordable now than it was 33 years ago.

              Chloe also argues for rent controls, and in support links to the UK Labour Party's proposals, which are untried, while ignoring the evidence that rent controls have perverse outcomes.

              I have nothing against Chloe personally, but she is seriously out of her depth.

              • Incognito

                I have nothing against Chloe personally, but she is seriously out of her depth.

                How lovely to know that your attacks on Chlöe are not personal, nor on James Shaw or the Green Party at large, I take it. And you would know this because your hero/guru Ashley Church told you?

                The Green Party has opened this for public discussion and feedback and put up eight options to start the debate.


                Clearly, housing affordability is low, especially in Auckland. As the Greens point out, there are international examples of various ways of control and regulation that work. Unsurprisingly, you had to cherry-pick the untested proposals by Labour UK. However, I do assume that those proposals are founded on research too, as is the case with the Green Party’s initiative.

                The Taxpayers’ Onion has no credibility whatsoever until they put up a discussion document that National or ACT can take to Parliament. Instead, they fear-monger in the hope of stymying the debate and killing off any firm policy proposals by this Government. It goes without saying that they don’t ACT in good faith. Never have. Never will. Do you donate to them?

                • Pat

                  Pointless exercise ….gypsy has misinterpreted the claim in his linked 2019 article (median house price has increased by over 30% since) where Ashley Church does what he accuses others of doing and cherry picks 'serviceability' criteria to compare two points in time to create a false narrative and conveniently ignores deposit criteria, mortgage terms and income ratios.

                  Corelogics most recent report notes these factors in its analysis and is a much better source of analysis than an industry spruiker.

                  • Incognito

                    Thanks. Indeed, it is obvious what gypsy is doing here. Have seen it before and it always ends the same way, which they should know by now 🙁

                  • gypsy

                    The Core Logic data is looking at a much narrower window. I havn't misinterpreted any claim. And the deposit criteria is something Ashley Church specifically mentions in his letter to the PM.

                    What I do find strange is the seeming willingness to accept untried political opinions over the word of someone who understands the housing market. I doubt that principle would be applied in other areas?

                    • Pat

                      Lol…what I find strange is the supporting links in his letter to the PM are his own articles….he provides ZERO evidence for his talking points…all of which are regularly trotted out by the industry.

                      The fact is housing affordability is completely controllable by the government should they so choose….the real question is whether the consequences are politically saleable.

                      As the Gov and RBNZ are well aware its a question of when not if the housing ponzi crashes….and every action to date has been to defer that day.

                  • gypsy

                    " the supporting links in his letter to the PM are his own articles….he provides ZERO evidence for his talking points…"

                    Yes he does…they are in the articles he links to.

                    "The fact is housing affordability is completely controllable by the government should they so choose…"

                    Over the long run, I agree. But as you point out, there would be political costs that would likely be unpalatable.

                    • Pat

                      If (contrary to what Ashley Church espouses) the Gov can control housing affordability as you agree AND that is a political decision then why would you listen to his advice ( a failed politician) over that of a successful politician (Chloe Swarbrick)?

                      He's a lobbyist using an industry provided outlet and his opinion deserves to be viewed as such.

                  • gypsy

                    " If (contrary to what Ashley Church espouses) the Gov can control housing affordability as you agree AND that is a political decision then why would you listen to his advice ( a failed politician) over that of a successful politician (Chloe Swarbrick)? "

                    1. That isn't what Ashley Church espouses. In fact his letter makes suggestions about how the government could fix the housing market.

                    2. Why would I listen to the advice of a proven expert over someone with zero experience?

                    3. Ashley Church was the youngest ever person elected to the Napier Council. He served 3 terms. Like Stuart, you don't seem to know much about Ashley.

                  • gypsy
                    1. Do you understand the difference between house prices (from Ashley's Church's quote) and housing affordability (from your quote I replied to)? Clearly you don't, which could explain a lot. FYI, this was the headline of his letter to the PM “Dear Prime Minister, how I would ‘fix’ the housing market”.
                    2. Ashley Church's credentials are well recognised. I'm not aware that Chloe Swarbrick is called on to offer her expert opinion on any aspect of the property market.
                    3. Your reference is a Napier general election result. In a safe Labour seat in which Church stood for National. Church served for 3 terms as an elected Councillor. “He was responsible for the ‘NapierLife’ Marketing program, which was a key driver in reversing population decline and re-energising economic activity in Hawke’s Bay during the 1990s. ” (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashley_Church#Political_career). Chloe failed in her bid at the Auckland mayoralty. She only got 7.33% of the vote. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Auckland_mayoral_election) Does that make her a 'failed politician'? I think not.
                    • Pat
                      1. You do understand the meaning of 'affordability' and its relationship to price?

                      2. Ashley Church's credentials have no basis in housing affordability, the area you attribute his 'expertise'….indeed his experience is more accurately in property investment and sales and marketing, the almost antithesis of affordability.

                      3.Yes Chloe Swarbrick lost her first foray into local body politics and went on to succeed within national level politics whereas Mr Church never managed to progress beyond local Councillor….and we know the quality of local body politics.

                      4. You are welcome to hang on Mr Church 's property proclamations regarding property investment but if he wishes to make policy then he can re-offer his services to the electorate and see if he fares any better this time round, meanwhile C Swarbrick can continue to perform the role she was elected to do.

                  • gypsy

                    "You do understand the meaning of 'affordability' and its relationship to price?"

                    Yes. It is one component of many. But you really did confuse the two didn't you.

                    "Ashley Church's credentials have no basis in housing affordability"

                    Of course they do. He is a well regarded expert on property matter generally, and has written on the topic for a living.

                    "Yes Chloe Swarbrick lost her first foray into local body politics and went on to succeed within national level politics whereas Mr Church never managed to progress beyond local Councillor….and we know the quality of local body politics."

                    So by your own standard, Chloe has failed at politics. Unless you have a different standard for people you disagree with?

                    "You are welcome to hang on Mr Church 's property proclamations regarding property investment but if he wishes to make policy then he can re-offer his services to the electorate and see if he fares any better this time round, meanwhile C Swarbrick can continue to perform the role she was elected to do."

                    I don't hang my hat on anything. It is important to consider a range of viewpoints. If and when Chloe establishes her bona fides in property, I will even listen to her.

                • gypsy

                  " Clearly, housing affordability is low, especially in Auckland. "

                  Ashley Church has presented an argument that housing affordability is better than it was 30 years ago. You have an opportunity to refute that.

                  " The Green Party has opened this for public discussion and feedback and put up eight options to start the debate. "

                  I never critiqued Green party policy. I was commenting on an article written by Chloe Swarbrick that contained her ideas about housing affordability and rent controls. I consider her opinion ill-informed, and have provided references to support that view.

                  “How lovely to know that your attacks on Chlöe are not personal, nor on James Shaw or the Green Party at large”
                  In this entire discussion I have not made any comment about James Shaw (who I admire) or the Green party generally. I have also made no mention of the Tax Payers Union, National or Act.

                  [Time to start moderating you because it seems that you’re pushing a nefarious agenda on this site and your comments don’t appear to be in good faith, as others have come to realise and have noted too.

                  Housing affordability is low, especially in Auckland.

                  This is a fact that does not get nullified by some historical comparison, which is a disingenuous debating trick. In addition, the comparison is arguably flawed anyway, as others have already pointed out.

                  I never critiqued Green party policy. I was commenting on an article written by Chloe Swarbrick that contained her ideas about housing affordability and rent controls.

                  Actually, Chlöe Swarbrick didn’t give or discuss any specific ideas about rent controls in her article in the Guardian. She mentioned that her party had started talking about rent controls (see the link in my comment listing 8 options to kick-off debate and consultation). And you went apeshit. When you try to refute her “ideas about housing affordability and rent controls”, by using Ashley Church as your prop – do you have any expertise of your own at all in this area? – you are, in fact, trying to critique “Green party policy”. Don’t you even realise what you’re doing here or is this part of your gaslighting MO? So far, you have not critiqued anything, but just went out on a full-scale blanket attack against the broad concept of rent control in Aotearoa-New Zealand. Quite possibly, because you’re ideologically opposed or have vested interests or both.

                  In this entire discussion I have not made any comment about James Shaw (who I admire) or the Green party generally.

                  Strictly speaking, this is correct, but I (and others here) read all your comments and I put this in context of what you’re doing here specifically in this thread. For example, starting here with your obscure Listener article that nobody else here could access: https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-13-06-2021/#comment-1797969. Short memory? Comes with the job, I guess.

                  So, others and I see a pattern emerging and when challenged, you deny and obfuscate.

                  I have also made no mention of the Tax Payers Union, National or Act.

                  Not verbatim, correct again, but you mentioned/introduced Ashley Church and keep propping him up. Are you playing cute when insulting our intelligence?

                  The way I see it is that you are a slippery commenter who does not comment in good faith, particularly on housing affordability, rent controls, and Chlöe Swarbrick. You don’t engage in constructive debate, which is why others are wasting their time on your comments (26 so far here and going on for 3 full days now). Here is your warning: stop with this disingenuous way of commenting or take it somewhere else. Please acknowledge that you have read and understood this warning, thanks – Incognito]

                  • greywarshark

                    It seems gypsy that you are a candidate for thought along the lines of Bertrand Russell:

                    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. Bertrand Russell


                    There is a problem with housing affordability for the younger working age group, and it has been shown that the number of years income required to buy a house has shot up skyhigh, compared to earlier times when there was more gradual rise in line with young adults' earnings.

                    I think this is generally recognised and you criticising people for thinking differently makes you seem a hostile provocateur in the column. Are you a rentier yourself only concerned with your own interests or those of family or friends or clients? We are thinking about the interests of general society, it is a different perspective; it seems there is a chasm between the two sides.

                    • gypsy

                      "I think this is generally recognised…"

                      What is generally recognised is that getting together a deposit is the problem, which is precisely the point Ashley Church makes.

                      " We are thinking about the interests of general society, "

                      …which cannot be served by poor analysis of the problem. Being nice is not a solution. On this issue, Chloe is neither experienced or wise.

                    • greywarshark

                      gypsy You are cherry picking things to go on about, and repeat, and go on about, and… Why don't you take up building mountains out of molehills elsewhere? We want to see real housing being carried out, and not leaky stuff either, and haven't got time to indulge in acrimonious arguments with people 'vaccinated with a gramophone needle' as my Gran used to say. Please go and find yourself a good hobby where you can show off your aggression and erudition to an appreciative well-heeled audience. Body building or ultimate fighting might be to your taste.

                    • gypsy

                      " We want to see real housing being carried out, "

                      I have only been commenting on Chloe's opinion piece, and only about housing affordability and rent controls.

                    • Stuart Munro

                      seaman's language?

                      Seamen have been known to enhance their expressive range with deck spanners – nor is their tolerance for fools infinite. But it is better not to lay one's vices off on one's profession. A certain terseness and directness of expression sometimes, perhaps.

                    • gypsy

                      " There is so much to read and follow and these people are a distraction "

                      No-one is forcing you to engage. Given your responses, I would suggest your issue is sensitivity to criticism of Chloe rather than truly believing she is more qualified to speak authoritatively on this than Ashley Church.

                  • Stuart Munro

                    You have thoroughly established yourself as a bad faith commenter.

                    I consider her opinion ill-informed

                    I consider your opinion fatuous.

                    I would suggest you get help,

                    I'm sure we are all amused by

                    • your assumption of mental health credentials you don't possess
                    • your departure from them by offering diagnosis without consultation or consent

                    But it is entirely consistent with the quality of your opinions on real estate, and on Chloe Swarbrick; that is to say, not worth a moment of anybody's time.

                    • gypsy

                      You continue to believe the word of a 26 year old who has no experience, and I'll continue to listen to expert opinion. I hope you feel better soon.

                  • Incognito

                    See my Moderation note @ 1:13 pm.

                    • gypsy

                      When you try to refute her “ideas about housing affordability and rent controls”, by using Ashley Church as your prop – do you have any expertise of your own at all in this area? \

                      Providing expert opinion is not a 'prop'. I can just imagine your response if I had given my own opinion without support! And yes I have expertise. Considerable. But that doesn't actually matter, so I quoted from an industry professional whose analysis people actually pay for.

                      [So much to unpack in this short comment; a most revealing litigious comment, which should have been a short and simple acknowledgement of a Moderation note, no more, no less.

                      If all you do is refer to one single so-called expert without providing your own arguments and facts, yes, then it is a prop. You’re hiding behind your prop and this is the well-known authority fallacy.

                      My imagined response is mostly irrelevant; more importantly, imagine the response of other commenters if you had given your opinion supported with well laid out arguments and information and you had engaged in good faith; we wouldn’t be having this convo right now. But no, Ashley Church is the best thing since sliced bread, apparently, and Chlöe Swarbrick is ignorant, inexperienced, and young – “a 26 year old who has no experience”, FFS!!

                      So, it does actually matter that you argue from your own position of knowledge and expertise instead of hiding behind a prop. It also adds authenticity to your comments, which builds trust and respect, even when others don’t necessarily agree with you. This is the kaupapa of this site and your comments run counter to this.

                      So, you chose a prop that people pay for? What kind of argument is that? Should we be impressed, in awe, and stunned? Does it make his opinion any better than Chlöe Swarbrick’s who’s also paid by the people to do her job dutifully as MP? Does it make him more trustworthy and accountable?

                      It is a pathetic argument and we know it – Incognito]

                    • Incognito []

                      See my Moderation note @ 7:09 pm.

                    • gypsy

                      Housing affordability is low, especially in Auckland.

                      Now this is a really good example of how you operate – you either don't understand the content or you deliberately misrepresent it. I have never argued affordability is or is not 'low'. What i did was introduce Ashley Church's evidence that housing is more affordable than it was 30 years ago. Chloe's article was headed " Under the government’s current plans it will be half a century before house prices return to affordability ". The point I made from the outset was that this is misleading, because housing is more affordable now than it was 30 years ago. That's why I referred to the work by Ashley Church.

                      [Chlöe Swarbrick correctly stated in her article that housing affordability is low. I stated the same thing (https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-10-06-2021/#comment-1798194). Your response was to mention some silly historical comparison by Ashely Church with which you agreed, obviously. Now you’re saying “I have never argued affordability is or is not ‘low’.” You’re lying through your teeth; you attacked that statement of fact more than once!

                      Chlöe’s statement was about how long it might take to correct this unaffordability, a projection into the future, which you ‘countered’ with a backward statement. If that isn’t the comment of a disingenuous troll, I don’t know what is.

                      Now this is a really good example of how you operate – you either don’t understand the content or you deliberately misrepresent it. [my italics]


                      The only one who has been misleading is you – Incognito]

                    • Incognito []

                      See my Moderation note @ 7:21 pm.

                    • gypsy

                      This is a fact that does not get nullified by some historical comparison, which is a disingenuous debating trick.

                      Chloe's article was headed " Under the government’s current plans it will be half a century before house prices return to affordability ". Presenting historical evidence that housing is more affordable now than 30 years ago in response to that claim is a "disingenuous debating trick"?

                      Seriously, I've enjoyed this little exchange. And yes, I understand the warning. It is a petulant rant from a moderator who clearly doesn't like their pets being criticized.

                      [Nope, you pulled the debating trick arguing against my comment that housing affordability is low, particularly in Auckland. This is undeniable and yet you deny it!? And it could indeed take decades to get down to levels that are more acceptable.

                      Yes, I’m sure you’ve enjoyed your little exchange with me and all those other ones with other commenters here. So far, 31 comments here. Unfortunately, you don’t want to understand the warning and rather attack the Moderator, which is a silly thing to do. Your attack is misplaced and misguided, anyway, because they are not my “pets” nor did you criticise anything. All you did was sniping and yapping.

                      I see that you ran some other counter-attacks on my Moderation note, which is just wasting more Moderator time. I will deal with those later, but first I will put a stop to this charade. Banned for 31 days, one day for each comment – Incognito]

                    • Incognito []

                      See my Moderation note @ 7:25 pm.

                  • gypsy

                    You need to get over yourself. This isn’t North Korea FFS.

                    But you mentioned/introduced Ashley Church and keep propping him up. "

                    No, I responded to ad-hominem attacks on an expert commentator that were irrelevant to the post. Have you moderated those who carried on those attacks? I’ll bet you haven’t.

                    but I (and others here) read all your comments and I put this in context of what you’re doing here specifically in this thread.

                    This seems to go to the heart of your moderating. You don’t like criticism of something you agree with. But whatever you may assert, an article in the listener is not 'obscure'. I do note that criticism of any Green Party policy is now unacceptable to you. Particularly one that is supported by a reference.

                    Actually, Chlöe Swarbrick didn’t give or discuss any specific ideas about rent controls in her article in the Guardian.

                    This is arguably one of your sillier comments.
                    Her piece in the guardian is headed "Everyone deserves a decent, secure life. It’s time New Zealand talked about rent controls." Her article links to Green Party policy on housing, which includes control of rents!

                    I could go on, but you have form that I was warned about by other commenters here when i was new. In the case of this convo, I understand it goes back to your silly comment here.

                    [This is a note for future reference.

                    Indeed, this is not North Korea, because here you can freely comment and argue your opinion without fear of repercussions. FFS.

                    Moderators here are more concerned about ad homs at other commenters and, above all, Authors. If somebody doubts your ‘expert’ this is hardly the stuff that would trigger moderation unless it kills debate and/or creates a bad vibe. Moderation usually starts with a warning, anyway.

                    Moderation is all about commenting behaviour, not about disagreeing at all. You’ve got it all wrong. I really don’t care if you want to criticize any Green Party policy but that’s not what you did here; you attacked a Green MP in a dishonest way without proper arguments other than your prop Ashley Church.

                    It is rather puzzling that you think so highly of Ashley Church and think his opinion on the matter is definitive and some kind of ‘industry standard’ since you wrote about a week ago:

                    That is a personal opinion provided based on someone’s experience. That has value, but it is certainly not definitive.

                    The Listener article that you quoted was “obscure” because it was inaccessible to others here, me included, i.e. it was hidden. This is an accepted meaning of “obscure”.

                    Indeed, Chlöe Swarbrick and the Green Party want (us) to talk about rent controls. The Green Party website lists 8 options to kick-start the discussion. You did not counter any of those options. You want to kill off any debate about rent controls full stop. No discussion needed around any of the options. No need to evaluate the supporting material provided. Just abort it ASAP. All rent control is bad, according to you, without actually arguing any specifics in the GP discussion document. We should simply take Ashley Church’s word for it. Yeah, right!

                    If you don’t want to debate rent controls here on this site, then you can leave it or go somewhere else. Others may want to discuss it and don’t need you riding roughshod all over the thread and diverting it away to Ashley Church of all people, i.e. without you diversion trolling here.

                    No, you cannot go on, because you have now been banned and when you come back you can pull your head in.

                    Yes, I saw your comment at the time (https://thestandard.org.nz/about-trevor-mallard/#comment-1791405) and thought it was silly and I took it a face value. So, you were new here, were you? Not only do you treat other commenters here with contempt, you also treat a Moderator as a fool. Let’s stop playing your silly little game, because we both know how this will end, don’t we? – Incognito]

              • Stuart Munro

                No, you have not even begun to answer Chloe's point, the crisis of unaffordability, nor are the opinions of a dishonest extreme right provocateur of interest.

                housing is more affordable now than it was 33 years ago


                "Only one country in a worldwide survey saw house prices rise faster than New Zealand in 2015. And no country could top New Zealand for house price jumps relative to income." New Zealand house price rises outpace all but one country | Stuff.co.nz

                You and Ashleigh Church can ‘make love elsewhere’.

                • gypsy

                  House price increases and income levels do not determine affordability. You have ignored interest rates for one. And providing a single comment from a moment in time 6 years ago is not a credible argument.

                  Your comment is precisely the reason you need to be listening to more informed voices.

                  Edit – if you enjoy snap shot comments, here’s one for you:

                  “We’ve always been expensive. When I bought my first house 46 years ago, I struggled to get it. I sold all the nice things and put in flat mates. It was never easy.” https://www.oneroof.co.nz/news/kiwi-house-prices-how-do-they-compare-to-the-rest-of-the-world-38726

                  • Stuart Munro

                    You trying to peddle the views of a dishonest redneck on a left-leaning site really takes the cake.

                    you need to be listening to

                    No, no I don't. You and the revolting Mr Church can find somewhere else to peddle your facile lies.

                    Here, we are concerned with making progress on the clusterfuck people like you and the revolting Mr Church have made of what was once a functional and well-ordered society.

                    If you're not with that program, maybe you don't belong here. People on the BFD are apparently stupid enough to pay attention to you – you'll be right at home.

                    I rate Chloe infinitely more trustworthy and better informed than either of you – you constitute a mighty low bar.

                    • gypsy

                      Ashley Church is a commentator on property with considerable knowledge and experience. I can only suggest you have lost all sense of proportion.

                  • Stuart Munro

                    Ashley Church is a commentator on property with considerable knowledge and experience. I can only suggest you have lost all sense of proportion.

                    Ashleigh Church is a liar and a provocateur. These things are bad manners in civilized societies.

                    Sod off and take your scoundrel with you.

                    • greywarshark

                      Brief and salty Stuart – seaman's language?

                    • gypsy

                      First it's Ashley, not Ashleigh.

                      Secondly – he knows his stuff when it comes to property. In the context of this discussion, that's all that matters, notwithstanding your irrational dislike for the man.

                  • Stuart Munro

                    First it's Ashley, not Ashleigh.

                    His mother might care, but we do not.

                    Secondly – he knows his stuff when it comes to property.

                    You have produced no evidence whatsoever to support this dubious assertion – on the contrary, you have pointed out his conflicts with the well respected Chloe Swarbrick, and it has surfaced in the course of discussion that he is a member of that rat pack, the so-called taxpayer's union. With the possible exception of the Nazi party or Nambla you would look long and hard to find an organization less deserving of public confidence.

                    Now, have you anything rational to offer beyond beyond your tawdry and utterly discredited appeal to authority?

                    • gypsy

                      " You have produced no evidence whatsoever to support this dubious assertion "

                      As you seem to possess a pathological dislike for the guy, I would have thought you would have known more about him. Including:

                      1. He is a frequent commentator on property matters across multiple forums.
                      2. He is a past CEO of the Auckland Property Investors Association.
                      3. He is a past CEO of the Property Institute of NZ.

                      And Chloe's credentials on property are?

                  • Stuart Munro

                    Look – I posted a good sensible column from Ms Swarbrick, on housing policy.

                    You rubbished her, without addressing anything she said, and wheeled out the despicable person of Ash Church.

                    As you seem to possess a pathological dislike for the guy, I would have thought you would have known more about him. Including:

                    1. He is a frequent commentator on property matters across multiple forums.
                    2. He is a past CEO of the Auckland Property Investors Association.
                    3. He is a past CEO of the Property Institute of NZ.

                    All of which make him competent to advise on property investment – and make his advice self-interested and unworthy of consideration in relation to public policy.

                    The wankers and property speculators who have created the present housing crisis are not competent in regard to housing policy, which thanks to their antisocial input now stands in need of frankly heroic intervention, as Chloe points out, and which you would know if you had read and understood her column instead of trying to crawl up Asley Church's spotty bottom.

                    Is the penny finally starting to drop yet?

                    The function of government is not to enrich sociopathic assholes like Mr Church – nor yet their lamentable lickspittle lackeys neither.

                    • greywarshark

                      We've had this type of commenter before haven't we. Can't be convinced of anything because it doesn't suit them to think or change. Could be someone working for the right, working for NZ Initiative, or even the Treasury. You can't convince them of anything that doesn't enhance their position. And the other thing they like to do is adopt the superior position! They have all the facts and understand them thoroughly, and you are either ignorant, or missing the point, or putting the wrong construction on the wording.

                      It's your time if you want to keep replying, but remember we already have Alwyn. Do we want another wilfully ignorant person here with commenters wasting their time on them? There is so much to read and follow and these people are a distraction; I believe they set out to be and possibly have a modus operandi that they follow that presses our buttons, but fail to ring a warning bell in our heads.

                    • Incognito []


                    • gypsy

                      " I posted a good sensible column from Ms Swarbrick, on housing policy. "

                      And I refuted two key elements of her 'policy' using the writings of someone far more eminently qualified. Chloe is 26 years old. I'm not aware she has ever owned a house, let alone had any experience of managing housing as a market.

                  • Stuart Munro

                    You refuted nothing, instead resting your flimsy smear on the reputation of a liar and a profiteer.

                    We can forgive fools who make errors through ignorance, but not those whose motive for wrongdoing is profit.

                    Church's knowledge of property is like the wolf's knowledge of sheepfarming – exhaustive, but motivated by self interest, not general prosperity.

                    Address Chloe's argument without reference to that charlatan – if your object is to actually discuss housing policy and not exhibit your unseemly enthusiasm for that despicable grifter.

                    • gypsy

                      Yes your hatred is truly psychopathic. That doesn't affect in any way the expertise of the source.

                  • Stuart Munro

                    Yes your hatred is truly psychopathic. That doesn't affect in any way the expertise of the source.

                    Your failure to engage in actual argument is typical of trolls – without your false prophet you are incapable of grappling with the issues the surround housing, and fall back on ad homs, first of Ms Swarbrick, and now of me.

                    Housing is, frankly, a mess. As Swarbrick notes, and your idol is unable to refute, it is going to take fifty years on current trends, for housing to return to reasonable affordability – which given the way variability affects economic predictions over time, is tantamount to never.

                    Property investors and real estate companies are largely to blame for this. They are also to blame for many of our homeless, and those the government is presently lodging in dodgy motels as a stopgap. They are freeloaders, whose business model was built on tax free capital gain, but neither the homelessness nor the tax evasion is the greatest damage they have done to New Zealand. That would be the massive inflation they have caused, and continue to cause – some 30% this year. Anything over 20% or so is usually referred to as hyperinflation.

                    This imposes massive deadweight costs right across the economy, money that should be circulating productively is sucked into the black hole of property. There will be no rising tide, even with the current dairy receipt boom, while property is sucking all the liquidity out of the economy.

                    It needs to be addressed – but we fully understand why the guilty parties, Church and his fellow travelers, are desperate that it not be.

                    Your disparagement of Swarbrick is part of an extended campaign on behalf of the self-styled Taxpayers Union that goes back to its ill-natured and ineffectual attacks on Mojo Mathers. How proud you must be to be part of that group of momentarily unincarcerated villains.

                    • gypsy

                      " Your failure to engage in actual argument… "

                      I was commenting on an article written by Chloe Swarbrick that contained her ideas about housing affordability and rent controls.

                      I consider her opinion ill-informed, and have provided references to support that view.

                      You, on the other hand, have engaged in an ad-hominem diatribe that reveals an irrational hatred of real estate agents, property investors, the Taxpayers Union, none of whom I have even commented on.

                      I would suggest you get help, but no doubt you've got some deep set hatred of anyone who could help you.

                    • In Vino

                      Is that you on meth, alwyn?

                    • alwyn

                      @Il Vino.

                      I would suggest that it is yourself who is on some illicit drug.

                      I haven't made a single comment on this subject, except for this one.

                    • In Vino

                      Fair enough, old boy. I have come to like your wry humour, even if your attitude often shows a right-wing bias.

                      But it seems to me that this gypsy fellow is a bigger nit-picker than either of us ever was.

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    3 hours ago
  • Funding to help clean up contaminated sites
    The Government is supporting the clean-up of contaminated sites in Northland, Dunedin and Southland to reduce risk to people’s health and protect the environment. Environment Minister David Parker said the funding announced today, through the Contaminated Sites Remediation Fund, will help us turn previously hazardous sites into safe, usable public ...
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    6 hours ago
  • Predator Free apprenticeships open up new job opportunities
    The expansion of a predator free apprenticeship programme is an opportunity for more people to kick-start a conservation career, Conservation Minister Kiri Allan says. “The Predator Free Apprenticeship Programme is focused on increasing the number of skilled predator control operators in New Zealand through a two-year training programme. “The Trust ...
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    19 hours ago
  • Further NCEA support confirmed for Auckland students
    The number of Learning Recognition Credits for senior secondary school students will be increased for Auckland students, Education Minister Chris Hipkins confirmed today. This recognises the extended time these students will spend in Alert Levels 3 and 4. “It means students in Auckland will have a fair opportunity to attain ...
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    22 hours ago
  • Long-term pathway next step to better mental wellbeing for New Zealanders
    The Government is taking a new approach to support people who experience mental distress, Health Minister Andrew Little says. “Kia Manawanui Aotearoa – Long-term pathway to mental wellbeing (Kia Manawanui) is the first 10-year plan of its kind that targets the cause of mental distress and also sets out how ...
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    1 day ago
  • Keeping our Police safe to keep our communities safe
    The Government is committed to keeping our frontline police officers safe, so they in turn can keep New Zealanders safe – with one of the largest investments in frontline safety announced by Police Minister Poto Williams at the Police College today.   The $45 million investment includes $15.496 million in ...
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    1 day ago
  • Clean Vehicles Bill passes first checkpoint
    The Land Transport (Clean Vehicles) Amendment Bill will help New Zealand drive down transport emissions by cleaning up the light vehicle fleet, Transport Minister Michael Wood says. The Bill passed its first reading today and will establish the legislative framework for key parts of the Government’s Clean Car Package, including ...
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    2 days ago
  • Funding boost supports ongoing Māori COVID-19 response
    The Government is responding to the need by whānau Māori and Māori Health providers to support their ongoing work responding to COVID-19 and to continue increasing rates of Māori vaccination, Associate Minister for Health (Māori Health), Peeni Henare and Minister for Māori Development Willie Jackson announced today.   This increased ...
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    2 days ago
  • Significant increase to COVID-19 penalties
    Penalties for breaches of COVID-19 orders are set to significantly increase from early November 2021 to better reflect the seriousness of any behaviour that threatens New Zealand’s response to the virus, COVID-19 Response Minister Chris Hipkins said today. “Throughout this Delta outbreak we’ve seen the overwhelming majority of people doing ...
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    2 days ago
  • Counter-Terrorism Legislation Bill returns to Parliament
    The Counter-Terrorism Legislation Bill has returned to Parliament for its second reading in an important step towards giving enforcement agencies greater power to protect New Zealanders from terrorist activity. “The Bill addresses longstanding gaps in our counter terrorism legislation that seek to protect New Zealanders and make us safer,” Justice ...
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    2 days ago
  • Joint Statement: New Zealand and Australian Trade Ministers
    Hon Damien O'Connor MP, New Zealand Minister for Trade and Export Growth, and Hon Dan Tehan MP, Australian Minister for Trade, Tourism and Investment, met virtually on Monday 20 September to advance trans-Tasman cooperation under the Australia-New Zealand Closer Economic Relations Trade Agreement (CER). CER is one of the most ...
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    3 days ago
  • Prime Minister’s Post Cabinet Press Conference/COVID-19 Update opening statement
    ***Please check against delivery***   E te tī, e te tā, nau mai rā [To all, I bid you welcome]   As you will have seen earlier, today there are 22 new community cases to report; three of which are in Whakatiwai in the Hauraki area, and the remainder in ...
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    3 days ago
  • Major milestones for Māori COVID-19 vaccine rollout as new campaign launches
    Whānau Ora and Associate Health (Māori Health) Minister Peeni Henare acknowledges two major milestones in the rollout of the COVID-19 vaccination programme for Māori. “I am very pleased to announce more than 50 percent of eligible Māori have received their first dose and 25 per cent are now fully vaccinated,” ...
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    4 days ago
  • Government funding to fight infectious diseases
    $36 million for research into Covid-19 and other infectious diseases The investment will improve our readiness for future pandemics Research will focus on prevention, control, and management of infectious diseases The Government’s investing in a new Infectious Diseases Research Platform to boost Aotearoa New Zealand’s Covid-19 response and preparedness for ...
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    4 days ago
  • Quarantine-free travel with Australia to remain suspended for a further 8 weeks
    Suspension to be reviewed again mid to late November Decision brought forward to enable access from Australia to first tranche of around 3000 rooms in MIQ Air New Zealand working at pace to put on more flights from Australia from October    The suspension of quarantine-free travel (QFT) with Australia has ...
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    6 days ago
  • Extra support for Ethnic Communities to share vaccination information
    Extra support is being made available to Ethnic Communities to help them share COVID-19 vaccination information within their communities, Minister for Diversity, Inclusion and Ethnic Communities Priyanca Radhakrishnan said. “We know we need to get every eligible person in New Zealand vaccinated. A fund being launched today will allow for ...
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    6 days ago
  • School holidays remain unchanged for Auckland region
    School holidays in Auckland will continue to be held at the same time as the rest of the country, starting from Saturday, 2 October, Education Minister Chris Hipkins said today. “I’ve carefully considered advice on the implications of shifting the dates and concluded that on balance, maintaining the status quo ...
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    6 days ago
  • Government continues crackdown on gangs and organised crime
    Operation Tauwhiro extended until March 2022 Since it was launched in February, Operation Tauwhiro has resulted in:   987 firearms seized $4.99 million in cash seized 865 people charged with a firearms-related offence Gangs and organised crime groups will continue to be relentlessly targeted with the extension of Police’s successful ...
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    6 days ago
  • Speech to Body Positive 'HIV Treatments Update Seminar 2021'
    E ngā mana E ngā reo E ngā iwi Tēnā koutou katoa Ka huri ki ngā mana whenua o te rohe nei. Tēnā koutou. He mihi hoki ki a tatou kua tau mai nei I raro I te kaupapa o te rā. Nō reira tēnā koutou katoa Acknowledgements It’s a ...
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    6 days ago
  • Power bill changes bring fairness to charges
    A key recommendation of an independent panel to make electricity charges fairer across all households will be put in place, the Energy and Resources Minister Megan Woods has announced. “Phasing out the regulations on ‘low-use’ electricity plans will create a fairer playing field for all New Zealanders and encourage a ...
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    6 days ago
  • NZ economy’s strong momentum will support rebound from Delta outbreak; COVID fund replenished
    The economy showed strong momentum in the period leading up to the recent Delta COVID-19 outbreak, which bodes well for a solid economic rebound, Grant Robertson said. GDP rose 2.8 percent in the June quarter, following on from a 1.4 percent increase in the previous March quarter. This was a ...
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    7 days ago
  • Projects create benefits into the future
    Making a well-known lake swimmable and helping to halt the decline of the endangered hoiho/yellow-eyed penguins are among a suite of new projects being supported by the Government’s Jobs for Nature programme across the southern South Island, Conservation Minister Kiri Allan says. “It’s no secret that many of our most ...
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    1 week ago
  • Opening statement for Whāriki Indigenous Small Business Roundtable
      Kei ngā tōpito e wha o te āo e rere ana te mihi maioha ki a koutou nō tawhiti, nō tata mai e tāpiri ana ki tēnei taumata kōrero mo te ao hokohoko arā mā ngā pākihi mo ngā iwi taketake Tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou katoa – Pai Mārire.  ...
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    1 week ago
  • New members appointed to Kāpuia
    The Government is adding four additional members to Kāpuia, the Ministerial Advisory Group on the Government’s Response to the Royal Commission of Inquiry into the terrorist attack on Christchurch mosques. “I’m looking forward to having Pamela MacNeill, Huia Bramley, Melani Anae and Katherine Dedo  join Kāpuia and contribute to this group’s ...
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    1 week ago
  • Timeline confirmed for Emissions Reductions Plan
    Cabinet has agreed to begin consulting on the Emissions Reduction Plan in early October and require that the final plan be released by the end of May next year in line with the 2022 Budget, the Minister of Climate Change, James Shaw confirmed today. “Cabinet’s decision allows organisations and communities ...
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    1 week ago
  • Pay parity pathway for early learning teachers confirmed
    Pay parity conditions and higher funding rates for education and care services will come into force on 1 January, 2022, Minister of Education Chris Hipkins confirmed today. The Government signalled this work in Budget 2021. “From 1 January, 2022, centres opting into the scheme will receive government funding and be ...
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    1 week ago
  • Speech to the New Zealand Nurses Organisation Conference 2021
    Kia Ora tatau katoa.   Ka tuku mihi ki nga nēhi, He pou Hauora o Aotearoa, E ora ai tatou.   Whakatau mai  I runga i te kaupapa o te ra Te NZNO conference.   Tena koutou tena koutou Tena tatou katoa   Good morning, and thank you inviting me ...
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    1 week ago
  • Government investment in farmer-led catchment groups sweeps past 150 mark
    171 catchment groups have now been invested in by the Government 31 catchment groups in the Lower North Island are receiving new support More than 5,000 farmers are focussed on restoring freshwater within a generation through involvement in catchment groups  Government investment in on-the-ground efforts by farmers to improve land ...
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    1 week ago
  • Fight to protect kauri on track
    The Government is pitching in to help vital work to protect nationally significant kauri forests in Auckland, Minister of Conservation Kiri Allan says. “Ensuring the survival of these iconic trees for future generations means doing everything we can to prevent the potential spread of kauri dieback disease,” Kiri Allan said. ...
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    1 week ago
  • Joint statement of Mr Bernard Monk; Hon Andrew Little, Minister Responsible for Pike River Re-entry,...
    [Note: The Parties have agreed on terms to fully and finally settle the proceeding and will jointly issue the below statement.] At the heart of this litigation are the lives of the 29 men tragically lost at the Pike River mine on 19 November 2010 and to whom we pay ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • More financial support for businesses
    Today’s decision to keep Auckland in a higher COVID Alert Level triggers a third round of the Wage Subsidy Scheme which will open for applications at 9am this Friday. “The revenue test period for this payment will be the 14th to the 27th of September. A reminder that this is ...
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    1 week ago
  • Aotearoa New Zealand provides further humanitarian support for Afghanistan
    Aotearoa New Zealand is providing a further $3 million in humanitarian assistance in Afghanistan, Foreign Minister Nanaia Mahuta announced today.  “There is significant humanitarian need in Afghanistan, with the crisis disproportionately affecting women and girls,” said Nanaia Mahuta. The UN has estimated that 80% of the quarter of a million ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Innovative te reo prediction tool announced in Te Wiki o Te Reo Māori
    A new Māori language prediction tool will play a key role in tracking our te reo Māori revitalisation efforts, Minister for Māori Development Willie Jackson announced today. He Ara Poutama mō te reo Māori (He Ara Poutama) can forecast the number of conversational and fluent speakers of te reo Māori ...
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    1 week ago
  • Further Government support for people to access food and essential items
    The Government is responding to need for support in Auckland and has committed a further $10 million to help people access ongoing food and other essential items, Minister for Social Development Carmel Sepuloni announced today. This latest tranche is targeted at the Auckland region, helping providers and organisations to distribute ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Half a million Pfizer vaccines from Denmark
    The Government has secured an extra half a million doses of Pfizer COVID-19 vaccines from Denmark that will start arriving in New Zealand within days, Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern announced today. “This is the second and larger agreement the Government has entered into to purchase additional vaccines to meet the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • Inland Revenue providing essential COVID support for businesses
    Inland Revenue is seeing increased demand for Resurgence Support Payments and other assistance schemes that it administers, but is processing applications quickly, Revenue Minister David Parker said today. David Parker said the Resurgence Support Payment, the Small Business Cashflow (loan) Scheme and the Wage Subsidy are available at the same ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • New Zealand marks 20th anniversary of 9/11 attacks
    New Zealand is expressing unity with all victims, families and loved ones affected by the September 11 2001 terrorist attacks, and all terrorist attacks around the world since, including in New Zealand. “Saturday marks twenty years since the 9/11 terrorist attacks in the United States, which killed nearly 3,000 people ...
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    2 weeks ago
  • Speech to SPREP Environment Ministers
    Talofa Honourable Ulu of Tokelau Faipule Kelihiano Kalolo Tēnā koutou katoa and warm Pacific greetings from Aotearoa to your excellencies, ladies and gentlemen. The new science released by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change on 8 August paints an alarming picture of the projected impacts of climate change on the ...
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    2 weeks ago
  • Additional Resurgence Support Payments to support business
    Businesses affected by higher Alert Levels will be able to apply for further Resurgence Support Payments (RSP). “The Government’s RSP was initially intended as a one-off payment to help businesses with their fixed costs, such as rent. Ministers have agreed to provide additional payments to recognise the effects of an ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago