Open mike 13/06/2021

108 comments on “Open mike 13/06/2021 ”

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1. Ad 1

   13 June 2021 at 9:03 am

   http://metvuw.com/forecast/forecast.php?type=rain®ion=swp&noofdays=10

   Anyone notice how little energy we're getting out of the southern ocean in terms of weather front formation?

   The 10 day forecast through to 23 June shows slow moving Tasman lows, which is great for moisture (finally!), but not the deep southern energy that will bring snow and hence snow packs.
   • Robert Guyton 1.1

     13 June 2021 at 9:28 am

     Yes, I certainly do notice that. It's been the case for a while now; at least, it's been patently obvious to those of us living in the far south; at first we said, "sleeping dragon', knowing it was just building, ready to burst upon us the way at always has done, only it doesn't any more; our weather is tame compared to what it was. Both encouraging and concerning at the same time.
   • Graeme 1.2

     13 June 2021 at 9:46 am

     Yeah, strange days in Whakatipu. I'm looking out my window at a green, sort of growing lawn, this time of year it would normally be browned off by the frost. Go onto a north facing hill and there's quite a bit of growth, and grazed out paddocks are coming back green after a week or so.

     The way the forecast models are looking there's not going to be any change from this pattern until maybe early July, maybe… So no natural snow for southern skifields, and temperatures too warm for any meaningful snowmaking until after the school holidays.

     This could get rather interesting around the town.
     • bwaghorn 1.2.1

       13 June 2021 at 1:55 pm

       Same up here at ruapehu, freaky june weather, not complaining to much was good for shearing last week .

       Usually the rock n roll weather starts after the shortest day ,but we haven't even had a taste of winter yet.
   • weka 1.3

     13 June 2021 at 9:51 am

     Apparently there is a anomaly around the Antarctic, saw a technical explanation I didn’t understand and didn’t talk about nearby land masses. Will see if I can find the tweets.
     • weka 1.3.1

       13 June 2021 at 10:03 am

       https://twitter.com/scottduncanwx/status/1403370165195128833?s=21
       • Ad 1.3.1.1

         13 June 2021 at 11:07 am

         I hope that simply means our big cold hit is in August ie later, harder, and shorter.

         Getting in training for the Hump Ridge for later.
       • Poission 1.3.1.2

         13 June 2021 at 8:03 pm

         There is an explanation by Ben Noll .

         1 There is a strong polar vortex (pv)operating.

         2 The pv is found when the southern oscillation is positive.

         3 The exceptional cold anomaly in the Antarctic (-6.9c) moves all indicators the SH is around -0.6 and the global anomaly is 0.

         https://twitter.com/BenNollWeather/status/1403719990394556422
   • Sabine 1.4

     13 June 2021 at 11:13 am

     yeah, its muggy alright, but sadly no drops are falling.
2. Pat 2

   13 June 2021 at 9:33 am

   Build less, not more.
   • weka 2.1

     13 June 2021 at 9:52 am

     Yes.
   • DukeEll 2.2

     13 June 2021 at 10:41 am

     With some exceptions to that rule. Projects pandering to my personal interests and hobbies is a good place to start

     [typo fixed in e-mail address]
   • Sabine 2.3

     13 June 2021 at 11:13 am

     Build better, and build to need rather then status.
     • Pat 2.3.1

       13 June 2021 at 12:26 pm

       Build to need i agree (though what constitutes need will cause debate e.g. cycle bridges)….build in the knowledge that everything built creates emissions and consumes limited resources in its construction and importantly in its maintenance.
       • greywarshark 2.3.1.1

         13 June 2021 at 12:57 pm

         edit
         And also build to last for just 50 years rather than the 100 years someone mentioned previously. Everything changes rapidly so be prepared with Plan B if a weather event happens or with a sea bridge, a ship loses steering or something and wipes out essential parts.

         Think Picton – Mikhail Lermontov, Italy – dozy navigation also there etc. And possibly government-sponsored terrorism, Rainbow Warrior v France, USA v Iran. We are not immune from that even if we are dancing away from Covid19.
         • Pat 2.3.1.1.1

           13 June 2021 at 3:59 pm

           "And also build to last for just 50 years rather than the 100 years"

           Are you sure you have that the way round you intended?
3. Morrissey 3

   13 June 2021 at 10:56 am

   That upcoming Hollywood treatment of the Christchurch massacre

   I wonder if they'll show the dramatic sequel involving Chelsea Clinton at the vigil in New York….

   https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03-17/hillary-clintons-daughter-accused-of-stoking-islamophobia/10909366

   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faiK4M7LXc4
4. Ad 4

   13 June 2021 at 11:26 am

   Kim Jon Un wants to crack down hard on anyone listening to K-Pop with hard labour and work camps.

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/music/300331611/kim-jong-un-calls-kpop-a-vicious-cancer-that-merits-work-camp-execution

   I used to have thoughts like that whenever Rick Astley and anyone out of the Stock Aitken and Waterman school of mid 1980s music was pushed into my ears in a supermarket.

   But helpfully I didn't run the country at the time.
   • Morrissey 4.1

     13 June 2021 at 12:52 pm

     Could Kim Jong Un send Chance the Rapper to a labour camp? He might learn to write something witty and clever there?
   • Morrissey 4.2

     13 June 2021 at 12:53 pm

     Could Kim Jong Un send Chance the Rapper to a labour camp? He might learn to write something witty there.
     • Andre 4.2.1

       13 June 2021 at 2:27 pm

       In your case, mozzie, I think we'd be happy to find you somewhere you could learn to just post once, before progressing to something much much more difficult such as wit (relatively speaking).

       Baby steps.
   • Brigid 4.3

     13 June 2021 at 1:04 pm

     Ah yes.

     You can be sure to be well informed by reading the entertainment sector of any publication. That's for sure.
5. greywarshark 5

   13 June 2021 at 11:37 am

   These are the women that women and concerned men should be advocating for:

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/444596/homeless-women-more-likely-than-men-to-be-younger-maori-and-sole-parents-study
   The Otago University research analysed data of nearly 400 men and women who were homeless before being re-housed by Housing First services…
   "To address the issue to the best of our ability, we need to know more about the different experiences of different groups, and that includes women.

   "In New Zealand, about 50 percent of our overall homeless population are women, which is internationally quite rare…

   Women had an average of 2.6 children, while men had an average of 1.6 children..
   Four out of every five women were Māori while for men, two thirds were Māori

   Dr Fraser said the statistics showed the welfare system was not working.
   "It really just shows our benefits aren't high enough. They need to be higher, they need to be easier to access.

   "These are really vulnerable people and their children deserve the best possible start in life that they can, but they're clearly not getting that if their mums are so stressed out and needing that wrap-around housing support."
6. Sabine 6

   13 June 2021 at 12:35 pm

   Such a kind and gentle government.

   https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/the-feebate-govt-confirms-rebates-for-buyers-of-electric-cars-but-petrol-car-buyers-will-cop-it/TEJ3V5CF72YFTT5NPQTOWJ3AAE/

   It offers rebates of up to $8,625 for a new electric car and up to $5750 for a plug-in hybrid car – but will not be given on cars that cost $80,000 or more. Cars had to have at least a three-star safety rating to be eligible.

   Fees on higher emitting vehicles will start from January 1, 2022.

   i guess they set 'affordable' until it hits 79.999.99 NZD……..oh boy.

   Well i guess the new minimum wage will making the buying of such a car within a year totally affordable. Totally. Or else those making that amount should just cycle from South Auckland to their jobs. But then maybe when all those that can not afford to buy a new car between now and Jan 2022 are to be 'fined' out of car ownership, rather then 'incentivised in' via cheap to free and punctual, safe and regular public transport. Something we are still not able to provide pretty much anywhere in the country.

   But i hope that the Middleclass in NZ that changes things is very happy and pleased and totally not ashamed of the fact that the lower class is financing their Middle Class status to great measure. Maybe Labour needs to rename itself the "Middle Class Party of Aotearo".

   And last but least, read the article to the end, and realise that not word not one pixle was used on 'bicycles, or buses, or trams, or any other form of public transport'. It is not the 'tradies subsidizing teslas', it is the poor NZ who needs a car because they have no public infrastructure what so ever that is subsidizing the schmucks in Wellington, and the million dollar burbs in Auckland.

   Or in words that some might understand better, The tax payer from South Auckland is financing a new car or several new family cars for the likes of Mike Hoskins and everyone in his ‘class’. The Upper Class. The Middle class gets a treat for buying the used cars of the likes of Mike Hoskins, and the proletariat is financing all of it.
   • ghostwhowalksnz 6.1

     13 June 2021 at 4:54 pm

     Did you know the median household income p.a.in Auckland in 2020 is $140,000, for rest of NZ its $114,000

     yes no one can afford at $15,000 car at all
     • Andre 6.1.1

       13 June 2021 at 6:02 pm

       No I don't know that.

       Stats NZ (link to Excel sheet on this page) sez the median gross household income for Auckland year ended 30 June 2020 was $104,821 – and the mean gross household income was $128,138.

       But yeah, plenty of opportunity there for $15,000 cars. Or even a $50,000 car every few years. It might just need a sacrifice of a few expensive holidays.
       • Incognito 6.1.1.1

         13 June 2021 at 8:50 pm

         It might just need a sacrifice of a few expensive holidays.

         There’s a lot of pent-up money because people had to cancel their overseas holidays in 2020 and also this year. So, let’s spend it on a Tesla or some other vital material wealth.
         • Andre 6.1.1.1.1

           13 June 2021 at 8:55 pm

           Gotta admit, every now and then I sneak a fantasy peek at Tesla's NZ inventory list. They seem to be shifting them a lot faster now than even just a few months back, let alone last year.
           • Incognito 6.1.1.1.1.1

             13 June 2021 at 9:00 pm

             

             We all have our weaknesses but mine is not Teslas, I have to confess.
       • ghostwhowalksnz 6.1.1.2

         14 June 2021 at 9:53 am

         https://ecoprofile.infometrics.co.nz/auckland/StandardOfLiving/Household_Income

         Infometrics would use official information – the link is a time series table and easier to read without Excel
         • Andre 6.1.1.2.1

           14 June 2021 at 6:03 pm

           Your infometrics link says mean household income, not median.

           It doesn't say where it gets its information from – I wouldn't assume anything about where it comes from.
7. Patricia Bremner 7

   13 June 2021 at 12:49 pm

   Sabine this was a Green Policy which was stymied by NZ First. It is designed to encourage the greater buying of electric and hybrid vehicles by those who can make the choice, as most of us have never purchased a new car and need more second hand choices.

   In your usual fashion you poke the Government instead of looking at the intended outcomes James Shaw and Julie Anne Genter were aiming for. There is so much bile in your system it is clouding your judgement and causing many to be turned off posting, but then that is perhaps your goal? There is no suggested "Other" way.. just bile.
8. mac1 8

   13 June 2021 at 12:53 pm

   What got left out of Sabine's critique of the article might be important.

   "and about $3,500 for used cars."

   "Rebates of up to $3,450 will be given to those who buy used electric cars and $2,300 for plug-in hybrids. From January, smaller rebates will also be offered to buyers of other low emission cars."

   "Wood said those fees would not apply to cars already in the country, which meant low-income families who relied on cheaper second-hand cars would not face the fee."

   "Petrol cars with lower emissions – such as a Toyota Rav 4 or Suzuki Vitara – would not face fees."
   • Incognito 8.1

     13 June 2021 at 12:56 pm

     Thank you for adding that; it obviously didn’t fit her usual vitriolic rant narrative.
     • Sabine 8.1.1

       13 June 2021 at 1:25 pm

       yes, it does.

       It means that people that have the means get government tax rebates as per the cars the y buy.

       As i said Incognito

       The rich can get up to 8700 NZD per vehicle they purchase, the not so rich can get a few grand less, and the rest of the country that can't afford a used or a new electric or hybrid vehicle and is dependend on an old gasguzzler get to pay for the boondoogle.

       And not a single word and pixle was extended to the announcment of the Government and dear Green Co leader Shaw to the tax rebates commuters that use public transport will get with the purchase of an annual bus ticket. – Got any comment to that?

       And thus you discuss me and the details of the money, and rest assured Mike Hoskins and his wife and their children could easily buy a car for each of them, rake in the 8700 max per vehicle and thus get 5 for the price of 4 all courtesy of those that actually pay taxes in this country.

       Good grief, this is the best national government we could get. Maybe that is why it is so appreciated by Middle Nuzilind.
       • bwaghorn 8.1.1.1

         13 June 2021 at 2:01 pm

         This government should do nothing because someone will miss out according to sabine
         • Sabine 8.1.1.1.1

           13 June 2021 at 2:58 pm

           No, this government should be looking at being fair.

           So this particular announcement should have been coupled with an announcement for the many that use public transports. Tax rebates for both.

           Is that really so hard to understand?

           Disclaimer, i don't own a car, never did. I am a public transport user, a walker, a cycler, i ride share etc.

           So in my opinion this announcement will do very little to encourage people that don't have the money to buy up and into a better car generation to use buses and trains instead. But i guess that was never the point. It is however nice to know that we are not so broke as a country to not give away a few tax incentives to people who already aren't known for paying much taxes.
           • ghostwhowalksnz 8.1.1.1.1.1

             13 June 2021 at 4:49 pm

             You forgot about 'the nurses'…. early starts late finishes and all that
       • mac1 8.1.1.2

         13 June 2021 at 2:50 pm

         Sabine asseverates, "the rest of the country that can't afford a used or a new electric or hybrid vehicle and is dependent on an old gasguzzler get to pay for the boondoogle."

         The article Sabine quotes says "Petrol cars with lower emissions – such as a Toyota Rav 4 or Suzuki Vitara – would not face fees." They don't pay for the boondoogle. Nor do people who keep their cars, gas guzzlers or no.

         The article also says that those who buy a car already in the country do not pay the fee- "low-income families who relied on cheaper second-hand cars would not face the fee."

         Funny how people get things wrong. ACT's Seymour says that Tesla buyers will get all this money, but the announcement limits the EV/hybrid fees to cars below $80,000.
         • Sabine 8.1.1.2.1

           13 June 2021 at 3:03 pm

           and you will have seen that i mentioned the price ticket. You can get some nice cars for 79.999

           according to this the cheapest comes in at 49.900

           https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/evs/124395353/lowest-to-highest-every-new-electric-car-you-can-buy-in-nz-in-2021

           for what its worth, i must be too poor as i don't know many people who can afford that much for a car, but then i am proud proletariat and i know my place :).

           What i am saying is that those that don't get tax rebates – are the ones that finance tax rebates generally the tax paying working public, many who are not in a financial position to take the government up on its offer. And in this announcement there is no mention of tax rebates for people that use public transport all year round, or those that have bought a decent bicycle to ride all year round. – Care to comment on that?

           What it does is it affords a tax incentives to people that can buy an EV or lower emission vehicle in the time. Are you one of these people ? Because then you may are biased in your assumption.
           • Andre 8.1.1.2.1.1

             13 June 2021 at 3:10 pm

             Did you miss the bits where the funding for the rebates is going to come from fees loaded onto the highest emitting vehicles such as Ford Ranger Codpiece Editions? That the whole programme is set up to be zero cost to the government? That it only affects the cost to those buying freshly imported vehicles (new or used), that it will not have direct effects on the used vehicle market within NZ?
             • Sabine …

               13 June 2021 at 3:22 pm

               That is not at all what i missed. As i said, many that drive high emission vehicles are not forcibly in a postion to actually change their cars. For a starter. So yeah, again those that can't afford to buy a decent car get to subsidze those that don't need a hand out. Maybe they should have targeted the group that drives old and high emission vehicles with that incentives.

               Did you miss where i advocate for tax rebates for people that commute? Have you got a comment to that? You know, incentives people out of gazz guzzlers or other cheap polluters by making public transport cheap?
               • Andre …

                 13 June 2021 at 3:35 pm

                 Those not in a position to change their cars are completely unaffected by this emissions fee and rebate scheme. They can continue driving the cars they already have in exactly the same way they are doing now. Yes, you have completely missed that part of it.

                 Public transport users are already heavily subsidised, and very likely will continue to get ever more subsidies. Just by tweaking where NZTA spends money. Where does NZTA get its money? Almost entirely from road users. But that's a completely separate funding give and take from this emissions feebate scheme. And the way road users subsidise public transport users means there's already a pretty good argument the poor family from Otara that drives because public transport just can't work for their workplaces and schedules is already subsidising the hi-falutin mirror-glazed office denizens of central Auckland.

                 Where the money for public transport comes from

                 The NZ Transport Agency and public transport 2013The NZ Transport Agency’s investment in land transport comes mainly from the National Land Transport Fund (NLTF) – a three-year funding pool, currently at $9.3 billion. Other sources include local authorities, developers, landowners, and the Crown (government). These funding sources are combined and paid out on a three yearly basis through the National Land Transport Programme (NLTP).Who contributes to the NlTF?Anyone who owns or runs a motor vehicle invests in land transport, and therefore in public transport. New Zealand’s road users contribute to the $9.3 billion NLTF through fuel excise duty (around 52%), road user charges (39%), and motor vehicle registrations (6%). The rest comes from people who lease or buy state highway property. By law, NLTF money has to be invested in land transport.

                 snip

                 How we invest through the NlTP

                 Investments of more than $1.7 billion will be paid out through the 2012-15 NLTP for public transport services, infrastructure and planning. This amount is over 15% of the total NLTP, and includes the money from our regional and territorial authority partners.

                 We pay out 50% of the subsidy for urban buses, and between 40% and 60% of the subsidy for the Total Mobility scheme (help for people with impairments who cannot use public transport).

                 https://www.nzta.govt.nz/assets/resources/public-transport-information-pack/docs/public-transport-information-pack-no-4.pdf
               • bwaghorn …

                 13 June 2021 at 3:47 pm

                 Most public transport is heavily subsidized
                 Oppd I see Andre beat me to it with a far better effort
         • Drowsy M. Kram 8.1.1.2.2

           13 June 2021 at 4:00 pm

           asseverates

           Thanks mac1; as good as Readers Digest's "How to increase your word power."
         • alwyn 8.1.1.2.3

           13 June 2021 at 4:52 pm

           About 80% of all Tesla sales are Model 3s. You can get a new one of these in New Zealand for just under $70,000.

           64% of all the new battery electric cars sold in New Zealand in March 2021 were model 3 Tesla vehicles. So a lot of Tesla buyers will certainly be cashing in. They won't get "all" the money but I would like to see your evidence that Seymour really made that statement and used those words. How about a link for him saying that?

           My links are

           https://yourcar.co.nz/new-car-quotes/tesla-model-3-342/spec

           https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/evs/124764306/these-are-the-most-popular-electric-and-electrified-vehicles-in-nz
           • mac1 8.1.1.2.3.1

             13 June 2021 at 6:01 pm

             Context should give you that I was quoting from the article that I was quoting higher in the comment which linked to the comments I made to Sabine' article available in her original comment.

             I was wrong is saying all Teslas were outside the $70 grand range. There is a cheaper model at $69 grand so Seymour is not wrong.

             There was a hefty price drop on Tesla models announced 19//4/21, less than a month ago dropping the entry model to below $70 grand.
             • alwyn …

               13 June 2021 at 6:18 pm

               Thank you for replying. No I didn't get any hint from the context, but I now see where you were getting it from. Seymour was coming close to your interpretation but it isn't that much divorced from the reality of the 64% numbers implication.
               • mac1 …

                 13 June 2021 at 10:18 pm

                 Thanks, Alwyn. How many EV or hybrids, bought in NZ are second-hand as opposed to new Teslas? I'm asking whether new Teslas are a significant part of total EV sales.

                 I have a second hand Leaf. Three people I know have the same. I know of no Teslas. One mechanical buff I know- I saw his EV today….. a second hand EV ute that he converted to be an EV from a petrol ute using a Leaf battery and some sort of lower-powered electric motor.
                 • alwyn …

                   14 June 2021 at 12:04 am

                   I'm not at all sure whether I am reading this correctly but if I am there were 427 more new-import pure EVs at the end of March than February and 256 more used-import EVs for the same period. That would seem to make New Tesla vehicles about half of all the EVs registered in the month.

                   I'm not sure where to get the number of used Tesla cars though. Be very cautious with my calculation though. I'm not at all sure on whether I am reading these numbers correctly.

                   https://www.transport.govt.nz/statistics-and-insights/fleet-statistics/sheet/monthly-ev-statistics

                   I have noticed a great increase in the number of Tesla cars in Wellington this year. That probably is only due to the fact that a Tesla is very distinctive and I tend to notice them. I don't think I would recognize a Leaf at a glance.

                   We have a hybrid Camry and an ICE Jazz. We use about 4.6 l/100 Km in the Camry and 5.7 l/100 Km in the Jazz. The Jazz is all around town usage in a hilly Wellington. Those aren't too bad for fuel consumption really.
       • Incognito 8.1.1.3

         13 June 2021 at 2:54 pm

         And thus you discuss me and the details of the money, and rest assured Mike Hoskins and his wife and their children could easily buy a car for each of them, rake in the 8700 max per vehicle and thus get 5 for the price of 4 all courtesy of those that actually pay taxes in this country.

         Happy to discuss. You have an issue with Mike Hosking, which is why you can’t stop ranting about him. In fact, my diagnosis is that you have Mike Hosking Syndrome. And please leave his children out of your tirades; what have they done to you to deserve your scorn? A very low blow by anyone’s standard.

         You obviously didn’t read the press release from Government on this announcement. Doesn’t surprise me, because ignorance is bliss, isn’t it?

         “We’ve already committed to policies that will make a difference, like the Clean Car Import Standard, decarbonising the public transport bus fleet and revitalising rail, but we have to do more.

         https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/clean-car-package-drive-down-emissions

         Surprisingly, there was nothing in the announcement either about the movie on the Christchurch mosque shootings, but maybe that was just an oversight or a deliberate omission by “Government and dear Green Co leader Shaw”, if you’re inclined that way, as you clearly are.

         But then again, this announcement was on “Clean car package to drive down emissions”. PT is already heavily subsidised and you obviously didn’t know this or deliberately left it out of your comments because it obviously doesn’t suit your narrative.

         … it is the poor NZ who needs a car because they have no public infrastructure what so ever that is subsidizing the schmucks in Wellington, and the million dollar burbs in Auckland.

         Coming from you, calling them “schmucks” is quite something. Of course, your comments are completely disconnected from reality and it just shows your blind envy and hatred for people whom you don’t even know.

         Or in words that some might understand better, The tax payer from South Auckland is financing a new car or several new family cars for the likes of Mike Hoskins and everyone in his ‘class’.

         Oh, that’s right, only the poor pay taxes and the rich evade and avoid their dues. FYI, Mike Hosking has no class.

         “Importantly the policy only applies to new and used cars arriving in New Zealand, so the existing second hand market of cars that lower income families tend to purchase from will not be affected.

         Do you want NZ to become “a dumping ground for millions of "dirty second-hands"”.

         https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2021/06/nz-risks-becoming-dumping-ground-for-dirty-petrol-cars-if-ban-comes-too-late-climate-change-minister-james-shaw.html

         I’d rather listen to dear Mr Shaw than the reckons of an ignorant simpleton. Any time.

         Bye bye for now, I’ve got work to do.
         • Sabine 8.1.1.3.1

           13 June 2021 at 3:14 pm

           Oh, that’s right, only the poor pay taxes and the rich evade and avoid their dues. FYI, Mike Hosking has no class.

           “Importantly the policy only applies to new and used cars arriving in New Zealand, so the existing second hand market of cars that lower income families tend to purchase from will not be affected.

           Do you want NZ to become “a dumping ground for millions of "dirty second-hands"”.

           No Mike Hoskins is part of the 'Upper Class'. You or anyone else liking him or not has got nothing to do with that, that status is based on income and he has that income. Secondly, he and his wife are be financially flush enough to take the government up on this offer to buy a brandnew vehicle for each and everyone of their whanau and this will then be a nice discount if you can get it. – Or do you dispute that reality?

           Next, NZ is already a dumping ground for millions of dirty second hands, as most Kiwis can't afford anything better, and this country does not builds its own vehicles. So by essence every vehicle is imported and NZ will thus become its burial ground. – Or do you dispute that reality?

           As for who pays taxes in this country, are you now saying that the rich do pay their full share of taxes and thus we don't need to tax the rich? Because it is not the poor that depend on puplic transport that are being offered tax incentives to get out of their unwarrnated, unlisenced, dangerous cars that they drive because that is all they can afford, and that is the only transport they have due to systematically underfunding of the public transport. – Or do you dispute that reality?

           I do hope that you are able to at least think a bit further then "labour good' everyone else who don't agree is bad. It makes you look deeply lazy and conformist.

           The best way to get the roads free of cars for cyclists is to get people into public transport. And a really good way of doing that is to make it cheap, safe, fast, reliable and often. And by paying the people that drive the buses, and such a decent wage. Unless of course we are too broke for that.
           • greywarshark 8.1.1.3.1.1

             13 June 2021 at 3:33 pm

             Looking at the list of comments on the right hand side I realise that your icon is a nice colour Sabine, and you have so many there will soon be enough to wallpaper a small room.
           • Incognito 8.1.1.3.1.2

             13 June 2021 at 8:28 pm

             I do hope that you are able to at least think a bit further then "labour good' everyone else who don't agree is bad. It makes you look deeply lazy and conformist.

             

             You can read my mind like an open book, but you’re too illiterate to understand the words.

             The best way to get the roads free of cars for cyclists is to get people into public transport. And a really good way of doing that is to make it cheap, safe, fast, reliable and often. And by paying the people that drive the buses, and such a decent wage. Unless of course we are too broke for that.

             Do you know what zero cost to the Government means?

             Do you know what “Clean car package to drive down emissions” means?

             Do you think it has anything to do with saving the lives of penguins?

             I don’t, which is why I stay on topic and you’re all over the place with your comments. It is not that people disagree with your opinions, it is that they have pointed out what you have missed and what you got wrong. Unfortunately, there’s quite a lot of it and sadly, you simply ignore it, as usual. You call yourself “proud proletariat” but your comments are not helping anybody.

             I cannot dispute your ‘reality’ because it is all true, in your head.
   • RedBaronCV 8.2

     13 June 2021 at 4:49 pm

     I fear this is a policy being rapidly over run by events. Much cheaper electrics and hybrids are coming onto the market fast.

     The whole of life cost of running electric and hybrid vehicles compares very very well with running an equivalent ICE vehicle. So much so that if you have the money (and a bit of solar on the roof makes it even better) frankly you are nuts to not buy electric unless there are range issues where a hybrid is the best answer. I simply would not have subsidised the high price vehicles – maybe a cap at around $32k if you have to do this at all. It would have been far better to do a smaller ongoing subsidy to lower the buy price for the cheap vehicle market with maybe some limited repayment through slightly higher rego. fees. You want the people who spend $5k to $15k on vehicles being able to get the lower running costs of small electrics not continuing to use ICE vehicles And with no run out market the new market for ICE cars is likely to collapse quite quickly.

     This looks like a trickle down vehicle market where the wealthier get the subsidy and the poorer wait for the left overs.

     As to fleet vehicles – given the economics I'd give about an 18mth grace period then wack them with the tax system if they haven't changed over from ICE.

     I see that it only applies to plug in hybrids according to the news story
9. joe90 9

   13 June 2021 at 1:20 pm

   If a country with one of the highest vaccination rates on the planet is struggling with the Delta variant, imagine countries with low vaccine coverage.

   https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1403423583641210880

   https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1403423583641210880.html
   • Sabine 9.1

     13 June 2021 at 1:27 pm

     Yes, I saw that speculated yesterday. 90% of the new infections are all Delta Variant. The fucking virus is not finished yet with us humans.
     • Andre 9.1.1

       13 June 2021 at 1:39 pm

       It's just more evidence to get your jabs when they are offered to you.

       With two doses of a coronavirus vaccine showing good protection against infection from the Delta variant, the government is seeking to get more jabs into arms. Currently, 55.4 per cent of the adult population has had two doses. (from the ft link in the tweet joe90 linked)
       • joe90 9.1.1.1

         13 June 2021 at 1:56 pm

         And there goes the but more data…

         According to the Kaiser Family Foundation's latest vaccine monitor report, nearly a third — 32% — of unvaccinated adults are waiting for full FDA approval of a vaccine before getting it.

         Dr. William Moss, executive director of the International Vaccine Access Center at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, said the large share of those waiting for approval came as a surprise.

         […]

         "Yes, it's kind of a formal stamp of approval, but I don't think it really provides much more than what we already know," he said. "We have more data on vaccine safety than with any other vaccine, even before the review of the full approval."

         https://abcnews.go.com/Health/full-fda-approval-drive-covid-19-vaccinations-experts/story?id=78048166
       • Patricia 2 9.1.1.2

         13 June 2021 at 2:45 pm

         Trying hard to organise my vaccination but best case scenario is currently second week of August.
         This is Auckland Central.
         • Macro 9.1.1.2.1

           13 June 2021 at 4:27 pm

           Meanwhile…

           Here in the Waikato there is virtually no information being given out by the DHB for those of us in Group 3 except to say they will contact us. Been waiting since early May – not a dicky bird.
       • Sabine 9.1.1.3

         13 June 2021 at 3:24 pm

         When …….

         right. 🙂
       • alwyn 9.1.1.4

         13 June 2021 at 4:59 pm

         "Currently, 55.4 per cent of the adult population has had two doses".

         Wouldn't it be wonderful if they could say the same about New Zealand? We are at about one tenth of that figure aren't we?

         And wouldn't it be wonderful if we were actually being offered the jabs instead of being told, basically, Shut up and wait. Don't call us. We'll call you at some future time. Maybe.
         • Andre 9.1.1.4.1

           13 June 2021 at 5:13 pm

           Fuck me you're a clueless selfish whining twat, alwyn. Clue for the clueless: it’s not all about you.

           You are not at risk of getting covid at the moment, unlike those in the UK or just about anywhere else.

           Getting our population vaccinated will be a good thing economically for those reliant of foreign warm bodies arriving here, but really for just about everyone else here, economically it's ticking along similarly to how it would be without covid. A little bit of patience is in order.
           • alwyn 9.1.1.4.1.1

             13 June 2021 at 6:00 pm

             "You are not at risk of getting covid at the moment".

             Really? When we have thousands of people who have been in Melbourne and who are allowed back without any isolation at all I am entitled to be worried.

             After all, Melbourne was meant to be safe too, wasn't it? Look how that has turned out? I am of an age, and with a suitably compromised state of health to be concerned. But you say that I'm not at risk and you know, or at least claim to know all about such things.

             I can assure you that there is no way that I plan to take up your offer to "fuck you" as you so delicately put it. On the other hand I don't mind suggesting that you get fucked.
             • Drowsy M. Kram …

               13 June 2021 at 6:21 pm

               Alwyn, you sound almost sick with worry – I for one hope you pull through.

               It’s official, California: COVID-19 has left us sick with worry and increasingly depressed. And our youngest adults — those ages 18 to 29 — are feeling it the worst.
               https://ktla.com/news/california/44-of-californians-reports-clinical-levels-of-anxiety-depression-during-covid-19-pandemic/ [August 2020]
           • greywarshark 9.1.1.4.1.2

             14 June 2021 at 11:17 am

             Andre
   • Incognito 9.2

     13 June 2021 at 2:01 pm

     Their struggle could well become our struggle. The longer the virus runs rampant in unvaccinated people and populations with low vaccination rates, the higher the chances of new variants evolving that might be resistant to existing vaccines. Looker after Number One only is the most shortsighted thing to do, as it generally is anyway.
     • joe90 9.2.1

       13 June 2021 at 2:12 pm

       Making good progress in my burg. 0800 booking secures group 3's and over 50 Māori an appointment within a week and supply dependent after 4pm walk-ups, afaik all over 16's, are available.
       • alwyn 9.2.1.1

         13 June 2021 at 5:02 pm

         Where do you live? Nobody in Wellington seems to have the faintest idea when over 75's are going to get the option?

         Perhaps I can move into your neighborhood.
         • joe90 9.2.1.1.1

           13 June 2021 at 7:51 pm

           Whanganui.
   • Rosemary McDonald 9.3

     13 June 2021 at 4:41 pm

     UK….is struggling with the Delta variant … but in Cornwall,

     luckily, G7 attendees appear immune.

     Beggars belief that these top flight world leaders, including the queen, would be allowed to gather and hob- nob unfettered in this stinking plague pit.

     Have they not heard of Zoom?
     • McFlock 9.3.1

       13 June 2021 at 4:51 pm

       Bets on how many of them aren't fully jabbed?

       Bojo might be one, having had it, but I'm betting the others were near the top of the queue.
       • alwyn 9.3.1.1

         13 June 2021 at 5:05 pm

         "others were near the top of the queue."

         You mean like all the many and varied Health Ministers, and Covid 19 Minister we seem to have who were getting done back in March.
         • McFlock 9.3.1.1.1

           13 June 2021 at 8:11 pm

           Yes.

           I do mean like that.
       • Andre 9.3.1.2

         13 June 2021 at 5:06 pm

         BloJo got his first late March. It's AZ, so he's probably close to getting his second.

         Merkel mid-March with AZ, dunno about second dose

         Biden second dose of Pfizer in January.

         Trudeau first dose AZ late April

         Macron says he's been vaccinated but haven't found further details

         Suga fully vaccinated with Pfizer early April

         Draghi got first AZ jab end of March.

         So mostly not fully vaccinated.
         • McFlock 9.3.1.2.1

           13 June 2021 at 8:03 pm

           how long before the second dose with AZ? Didn't think it was all that long, but haven't been looking too closely.
           • Andre 9.3.1.2.1.1

             13 June 2021 at 8:15 pm

             Originally the delay between doses was three weeks IIRC. As was used for the phase 3 trials.

             When the UK started running short with the AZ, they decided to delay the second dose to 12 weeks to free up those doses for other people to get their first dose. Since then, it seems they've decided the longer delay actually gives a better immune response. But now they're closing the gap between doses to try to get more people double-dosed as quickly as possible because of the new variants.

             Dunno what other countries are doing.
             • McFlock …

               13 June 2021 at 8:42 pm

               interesting.
     • joe90 9.3.2

       13 June 2021 at 7:47 pm

       Zoom's for ordinary people. And red-shirts.

       https://twitter.com/kevinguilfoile/status/1403376339319668736

       https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/covid-19-outbreakcloses-hotel-hosting-g7-summit-delegation-2021-06-10/
       • greywarshark 9.3.2.1

         14 June 2021 at 11:23 am

         Children's learning game – Which one is not like the others? Interesting about red shirts joe90 – hadn't known that and funny (not) in this context.

         They do look as if they've just been beamed down. Using Tesla Star Transport I presume.
10. David 10

    13 June 2021 at 5:51 pm

    The Herne Bay set will be pleased with the government. Last week they got the billion dollar bike bridge to bayswater, this week they got a subsidised Tesla.

    Sorry folks in the rest of Auckland where your roads have been cancelled and now your subsidising someone else’s Tesla.
    • Ad 10.1

      13 June 2021 at 5:56 pm

      Herne Bay has resisted the shared path for over a decade.

      Herne Bay people don't stoop to a car worth only $80k.

      Try a different suburb for imagined grievance.
    • gypsy 10.2

      13 June 2021 at 6:36 pm

      Similar point made in an excellent Listener article this week, when they compared the 'bike bridge' to the private 'green school' funding. “The Greens cannot credibly claim to be the party most dedicated to the vulnerable and marginalised when they’re seduced into showboating projects such as this.”
      • Drowsy M. Kram 10.2.1

        13 June 2021 at 6:55 pm

        “The Greens cannot credibly claim to be the party most dedicated to the vulnerable and marginalised when they’re seduced into showboating projects such as this.”

        Intriguing quote Gypsy. I cancelled my Listener subscription earlier this year, so perhaps you could check for me – did the author(s) of that "excellent Listener article" happen to indicate which political party, if not the Greens, they think is "most dedicated to the vulnerable and marginalised"? Perhaps the Māori party?
        • gypsy 10.2.1.1

          13 June 2021 at 7:06 pm

          They didn't pass that judgement, I'm afraid. I believe their point was to highlight the hypocrisy of paying for education and cycling for the wealthy while championing the cause of the downtrodden. You know, the old 'actions speak louder than words' thing?
          • Drowsy M. Kram 10.2.1.1.1

            13 June 2021 at 7:17 pm

            So then it's possible that the Greens are (still) "the party most dedicated to the vulnerable and marginalised"? Disappointing that the author(s) didn't clarify what they believed in their otherwise "excellent article" – how difficult could it be?

            The author(s) are right, of course: hypocrisy – there’s a lot of it about.
            • gypsy 10.2.1.1.1.1

              13 June 2021 at 7:54 pm

              It's possible they still are. The authors point is that they may no longer be able to credibly claim to be. But to be fair you haven't read the article.
              • Drowsy M. Kram …

                13 June 2021 at 11:51 pm

                But to be fair you haven't read the article.

                To be fair I made that clear, and the quote you provided is confirmation that the decision to cancel my Listener sub was a good one, so thanks for that.

                "It's possible they still are." "…they may no longer be able…"

                Still relatively good then – they’ve got my party vote until it’s shown that the Greens are no longer “the party most dedicated to the vulnerable and marginalised” – could be a looooong wait.
                • gypsy …

                  14 June 2021 at 12:29 pm

                  Fair enough. At the moment mine will cancel yours out, but heh, you never know.
          • Bearded Git 10.2.1.1.2

            13 June 2021 at 7:29 pm

            James Shaw accepted that, while there were green positives in relation to the green school, the funding model supported was a mistake.

            Maybe we need more honest parties like the Greens in parliament.

            Meanwhile gypsy you ignore all of the positive work being done by the Greens on climate change and poverty. Take s look at their proposal for a wealth tax for instance…. something Jacinda and Robertson are far to neo-liberal to contemplate.
            • Incognito 10.2.1.1.2.1

              13 June 2021 at 7:36 pm

              I don’t want to derail this thread, but I’m curious how you found the new Cromwell-Clyde ride.

              If you do reply, feel free to make it a standalone comment 😉
              • Bearded Git …

                19 June 2021 at 3:20 pm

                It was excellent.

                You need an ebike or you have to be super fit. We rode the whole way from old Cromwell which is 43k and took 4 hours with stops.

                You can start a few km closer to Cromwell amongst the vineyards at Bannockburn.

                We had a car at each end. Friends have swapped keys at the half-way point.

                Olivers is excellent for a beer/fud at the end.

                The only downside is the noise of the traffic on the road across the lake.
                • Incognito …

                  19 June 2021 at 3:26 pm

                  Ta
            • gypsy 10.2.1.1.2.2

              13 June 2021 at 7:58 pm

              Proposals are not 'positive work being done'. The funding of a school for the wealthy was an actual policy put into action and supported by the Green party.
          • In Vino 10.2.1.1.3

            13 June 2021 at 7:44 pm

            No, Drowsy – just a light-weight, cheap shot at the Greens with no serious analysis of any party's social policy.

            When Pamela Stirling became Editor of the Listener, Chris Trotter related in a recent post that she said that the Listener would cease being the mouthpiece of the Alliance Party. Chris then said she had since pretty well transformed it into a mouthpiece for the National Party.

            I saw this editorial as confirming what Chris wrote.
          • Incognito 10.2.1.1.4

            13 June 2021 at 8:55 pm

            You are misinformed or do have a selective memory.

            “Just to be clear, never, ever was this a 100 per cent grant – not at all,” Chris Edwards, Green School New Zealand chief executive, said on Wednesday. “The application was for a 25 per cent grant – the rest was a series of loans.”

            https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/122640790/green-schools-117m-from-govt-never-ever-been-a-100-per-cent-grant-ce-says
            • gypsy 10.2.1.1.4.1

              13 June 2021 at 9:15 pm

              I didn't claim the school received a 100% grant. I described the money as 'funding'. James Shaw himself described the decision as an error of judgement, and went on to say this:

              "So again I apologise. I apologise to parents, to teachers, to unions. I apologise to Green Party members who have been working tirelessly in their communities to make sure that the Green’s are a party the next Government and have felt demoralised by this decision. I apologise to the schools in Taranaki who quire rightfully want the best for their children. And I want you to know, all of you, that I have listened to your concerns."
              • In Vino …

                13 June 2021 at 9:25 pm

                Gypsy – you knew all that which you have just quoted, and that James Shaw had clearly stated that it was an error of judgement… Yet you sneakily used it to back up the Listener Editorial which I have described as a cheap shot, but which you described as 'excellent'.

                I think we can all see where you are coming from, Gypsy.
              • Incognito …

                13 June 2021 at 9:29 pm

                You said this:

                … paying for education and cycling for the wealthy … [my italics]

                Make of that what you will, but to me you were lying by omission to tell the full story, which would make you a hypocritical troll, in my book. This seems to a hallmark of commenters who have an engrained anti-Green Party bias. Quoting from a propaganda magazine that is not accessible to others here is very poor form but goes with the trolling, I guess.
    • mac1 10.3

      13 June 2021 at 10:06 pm

      The fee only occurs if you buy in a vehicle from overseas- cars already in NZ don't pay a fee. The fee occurs if you choose to buy a petrol /diesel car with more than low emissions.

      You get a fee paid to you if you choose to buy a car that is new or second hand and it's an EV or a hybrid and costs less than $80,000.

      You avoid paying a fee if you choose to buy a car with low emissions.

      You neither pay or receive a fee if you choose an EV of hybrid costing over $80,000 or if you choose a low emissions vehicle.

      There are choices. You can choose to subsidise, or not.
      • Incognito 10.3.1

        13 June 2021 at 10:12 pm

        Some people don’t like others having choices because it is only fair if all people have the same choices. They’re living in Fantasy Land.
11. greywarshark 11

    13 June 2021 at 10:17 pm

    This sounds interesting though i haven't as yet read it.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/444634/internal-affairs-intelligence-and-investigation-system-panned

    It set out in 2013 to set up a system that let investigators in five different units share intelligence.

    "The ultimate outcome… will be to enable efficient single and multi-unit investigations," it said.

    Instead, after a series of hurdles, eight years on it has spent about $2 million on the intelligence side of things.

    Obvious why it didn't work – they hadn't spent enough millions on it! Everyone else just pours the $ on, with a cherry on top. /sarc
    • McFlock 11.1

      13 June 2021 at 10:26 pm

      Heh, interesting.

      The bit about changes "that improved how investigations were managed" – were they part of the results from the suggested programme, or did the project take so long to get off the ground that other managers implemented a workaround that turned out to be better than the proposed project?

      Or maybe it just took so long to get going that it became obsolete before it started lol.
      • RedBaronCV 11.1.1

        13 June 2021 at 10:33 pm

        I was unclear what all these groups needed to "investigate" or was it a dodge to cover up prying into the personal affairs of their fellow citizens without checks nd balances.

        Any ideas anyone?
        • McFlock 11.1.1.1

          13 June 2021 at 10:45 pm

          Depends on the units involved. They mentioned passports, so there's one aspect. There's also financial stuff, like gambling, lotteries, and some international financing/laundering regulations.
    • Craig H 11.2

      14 June 2021 at 1:11 am

      The 2 year delay at the start probably sunk it – they attempted to tender in 2016 and then the only company which met the requirements went into liquidation.
12. Incognito 12

    13 June 2021 at 10:29 pm

    To Ben Purua and all others who have and will turn their lives around: RESPECT!

    Kia kaha

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/125383822/ben-purua-went-to-prison-for-manslaughter-at-16–farming-has-changed-his-life

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