Open Mike 10/08/2017

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, August 10th, 2017 - 98 comments
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98 comments on “Open Mike 10/08/2017 ”

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  1. ScottGN 1
    10 August 2017 at 6:27 am

    If Winston has the Barclay texts it might be a good time to stop pussy-footing around…

    • Johan 1.1
      10 August 2017 at 6:44 am

      Winston is the master of drip feed, all in good time.

    • Cinny 1.2
      10 August 2017 at 7:32 am

      Once the Greens are out of the gossipy news cycle, then I suspect Winston will tell us more.

      Yesterdays question in Parliament was very telling, it’s far from over.

      • ianmac 1.2.1
        10 August 2017 at 10:03 am

        At the end of Winston’s questioning of Bill he remarked, “They are going to miss you.” Ominous?

        • You_Fool 1.2.1.1
          10 August 2017 at 4:19 pm

          Yeah, Winnie has something, and he at least thinks it is big. He must have proof that Bill was party to the agreement, knew about it and used ministerial limos to ferry people around in Southland to get the agreement done.

          Give Winnie a week to allow the furor around the Greens to die and he will nail Bill. He might wait a little longer to see if he can skewer anyone else, or if he sees a way to eek out some more support from it, but it is coming….

    • marty mars 1.3
      10 August 2017 at 10:24 am

      Old bill english must be so scared now – likely 2 time loser, sad texts about to come out – oh the shame is coming, no policy, tired weak team of backstabbers and nobodies. More big bangs to come for Bill as he goes down and keeps going down until all his energy is spent – that’ll be early next week

    • mary_a 1.4
      10 August 2017 at 10:30 am

      @ScottGN (1) … I agree. Winston needs to step up now, if he’s in possession of the texts. In typical form, he’s treating the issue as a game, which doesn’t do him or NZF any favours.

      I watched a recent online video of Winston being questioned about the texts. He would not give a straight answer and when pushed, he began attacking the journalists concerned! It was like a replay of his mentor Muldoon in action, when journalists put the pressure on him! The similarities in response was quite eerie!

      However the old cynic in me is thinking maybe Winston could be using the English texts as a form of blackmail (for want of a better word), attempting to see what a Natz (via English) deal will come up with for him, post election.

      • McFlock 1.4.1
        10 August 2017 at 11:59 am

        after the election they’ll be worthless, as will any promises made because of them.

        If he has them and they are really bad for blinglish, Winston will expect light treatment from the nats during the campaign. No muckraking from farrar, hoots, or Jizzpaste McSweaty. No seeking out family members. Otherwise, a couple of weeks out, Peters will drop ’em.

  2. Ffloyd 2
    10 August 2017 at 7:29 am

    Could anyone be more annoying than Susie Ferguson? Why doesn’t she just answer her own questions and be done with it.

    • OncewasTim 2.1
      10 August 2017 at 8:39 am

      She’s probably aiming for a spot on The Nation or Q+A panels as a rent-a-voice
      She’s by no means the worst of them but they do engage in binary ‘yes or no’ thinking at times

      • In Vino 2.1.1
        10 August 2017 at 7:16 pm

        Well said, Ffloyd. Calculated interruptions which both disrupt the flow of the interviewee and prevent the listener from hearing the reply. Some replies are worthless evasion – but to Susie, any answer is fair game. Unless it is a high-ranking National politician of course.

    • Xanthe 2.2
      10 August 2017 at 7:22 pm

      Yes yes she annoys the heck out of me for that too

  3. Kay 3
    10 August 2017 at 7:57 am

    For the last decade or so I’ve more and more hated being a New Zealander, being on the receiving end of everything my “alleged” Government (and most of the opposition) has to throw at me, their overt hatred for my existence- for the simple reason I’m unable to work due to illness and need a benefit to survive. Yes, you could extend that back 30 years, but the extreme extreme cruelty kicked in more recently.

    And of course, one has to admire the success of the divide and conquer campaign of the last 30 years (also revved up more recently) which has led us to now.

    My Government openly despises me.
    Labour don’t give a damn but they won’t say it out loud. Their actions during their last reign and silence in opposition since make that pretty clear.
    A significant group of my fellow compatriates have been somehow brainwashed by politicians and the media into despising me. Maybe not as many as it feels like and it’s just a well coordinated media campaign that makes them sound like they represent the majority, but it still hurts.

    I don’t believe it’s an exaggeration to say there’s a lot of people here who genuinely couldn’t give two hoots if I died under a bridge. As a beneficiary in NZ, our status on the pecking order is just above an incarcerated prisoner, if not on a par. Of course, we are all now by default guilty of something until proven innocent.

    Yesterday for the first time ever I openly cried over what happened to a politician, for the simple reason I never had any reason to give a damn what happened to one before, and the sustained attacks on MT were also attacks on every beneficiary in the country and while we weren’t their target at times we might as well have been. I was close to joining to non-voter ranks, especially after the Greens seemed to go very quite on welfare for a couple of years- I’ve always voted but now fully understand why people give up on the process. When literally no politician will speak out for you then you’re not being represented.

    Greens, please don’t push your welfare policy into the background now that the topic’s finally being talked about publicly. In between all the horrible stuff there’s been some reality checks come through in some MSM and the public can’t be allowed to forget.

    • weka 3.1
      10 August 2017 at 8:08 am

      I’m hearing you Kay and full solidarity on all that.

      As far as I can tell the Greens aren’t going to abandon beneficiaries, last night Shaw again committed to *ending poverty* in NZ and positioned the Greens as the only party willing to do that. But I can see that they need now to prove this to supporters and beneficiaries so I hope they do this in the next while.

    • Bob 3.2
      10 August 2017 at 8:36 am

      I hear you Kay, being on the bottom rung of the so called ladder is no fun at all.
      I too have been in your situation & feel your frustration with the system.
      You will get more compassion under an inclusive Labour Led Govt. than anything that is currently being offered.
      I hope u don’t loose faith in the broken system we have to deal with, because voting is the only way to try and change that.Miturea has fallen on her sword sadly, but has done NZ a favour by opening this can of worms.
      It won’t go away now.
      Don’t give up #letsdothis

    • KJT 3.3
      10 August 2017 at 8:56 am

      Have a look at the Green pages on facebook. And take heart.

      The leaders and the party are more determined than ever to address both social and environmental progress.

      • Carolyn_nth 3.3.1
        10 August 2017 at 9:04 am

        I don’t see anything on the GP FB since Turei’s registration. Where’s Davidson’s live chat last night on FB that some on twitter have mentioned?

    • patricia bremner 3.4
      10 August 2017 at 9:37 am

      Courage Kay, many Labour voters and members like me are sending clear signals about how we feel about the situation sickness beneficiaries and the unemployed find themselves in.

      I too, shed tears for Metiria and those she represented.

      Yes, REPRESENTED,

      This is the role of parliamentarians and those seeking office.

      To be representatives.

      Humility kindness empathy, and most of all truthfulness have been in short supply.

      Paul Goldsmith;s racial comments and entitled view just an example.

      Those voters who want change, support the greens, as we want to keep Labour honest and on track not to be Nat Lite.

    • Karen 3.5
      10 August 2017 at 10:31 am

      Kia kaha Kay.

      Marama Davidson will be a very strong advocate for welfare reform in the next government. This is not going to go away.

    • Sumsuch 3.6
      10 August 2017 at 11:50 pm

      Kay, all for you and speaking for you as much as possible. You are right, remember that. The nonsense of present nonsense–like Jim Bolger when he was PM for 7 and a half years–is, anything but materially, nothing. What remains is you are right. NZ’s heart is in the under- dog, or nowhere.

  4. Pete 4
    10 August 2017 at 8:05 am

    The scummy behaviour of National doesn’t ever seem to bite them on the bum.

    “Citizen Thiel material wrongly withheld at billionaires’ request”

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11900954

    • Cinny 4.1
      10 August 2017 at 8:11 am

      Wows. Thanks for the link, appears that even Thiel believed it was a dodgy deal, if he didn’t his lawyers would not have requested that the information to be withheld.

      “Thiel avoided usual requirements when then-Minister Nathan Guy invoked a little-used “exceptional circumstances” clause of the Citizenship Act, citing Thiel’s philanthropy and venture-capital investments in this country.”

      Excellent journalism by Matt Nippert

      Will Nathan Guy be around to explain this?

    • marty mars 4.2
      10 August 2017 at 8:12 am

      I hope they tell him to fuck right off.

  5. Cinny 5
    10 August 2017 at 8:05 am

    It’s just been hinted on newshub that Kennedy Grahame wants to go back on the greens list.

    • marty mars 5.1
      10 August 2017 at 8:10 am

      I hope they tell him to fuck right off.

    • weka 5.2
      10 August 2017 at 8:26 am

      Newshub that literally made up the news the other night? Probably not the best source of information or political analysis.

    • Craig H 5.3
      10 August 2017 at 8:34 am

      Shaw has ruled it out.

    • Carolyn_nth 5.4
      10 August 2017 at 8:41 am

      Also more than hinted at by RNZ. It may have been in response to questions, so the context is needed. But Shaw sounds like he’s trying to be diplomatic and to avoid bening damning of Graham.

      He also suggested the door could be open for Dr Graham and Mr Clendon to return, now Mrs Turei had gone.

      Mr Clendon had no intention of returning but his understanding was that Dr Graham had been talking to the national executive.

      “It’s a matter for the party executive [but] I think it would be very tough for either Dave or Kennedy to come back into caucus at the moment – there’s a lot of raw feeling about the events of Monday.”

      He had “tremendous respect” for Dr Graham and his climate change expertise, but there were others who would take on that issue, he said.

    • ScottGN 5.5
      10 August 2017 at 9:06 am

      RadioNZ reporting this possibility too now in the 9am news bulletin.

    • millsy 5.6
      10 August 2017 at 9:52 am

      Graham should be old enough to realise that things dont work like that,

    • mary_a 5.7
      10 August 2017 at 10:37 am

      Hi Cinny (5) … I also heard on RNZ this morning that James Shaw suggested the door is open for Kennedy Graham to return!

      What’s going on there?

      I am a Green supporter, but after hearing that, I’m having some WTF moments about the party!

      • marty mars 5.7.1
        10 August 2017 at 11:02 am

        I just do not get this either – I am officially worried about this.

        • weka 5.7.1.1
          10 August 2017 at 11:16 am

          I just listened and here is what I heard James Shaw say (my paraphrasing):

          – Clendon doesn’t want back in.
          – Graham might
          – it’s up to the Party to sort that out, and the appropriate staff (national executive) are looking at it.
          – Shaw himself can’t see how it would work because of the raw feelings in the caucus from what Graham and Clendon did only a few days ago.
          – Graham is hugely experienced on climate change and Shaw has a lot of respect for him
          – the party is bigger than any one person
          – the party has a number of people very experienced on climate change

          The thing to understand about the GP is that the leader doesn’t get to dictate stuff. There are processes to work through and it’s not Shaw’s place to pre-determine what that will be.

          http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/336863/greens-tough-week-entirely-recoverable-shaw Relevant bit starts at 30 secs.

          My own feeling is that Graham should do what Norman and Hague did and go get himself a kick arse NGO job that allows him to be political on CC. I hope the party say not to having him back because of the betrayal and because of the message it would send to Māori and poor people.

          I really wish people would start trusting the Greens more and listen to what they say. I know this is hard, but mostly everything that the MSM say is based on them not really understand the kaupapa.

          • marty mars 5.7.1.1.1
            10 August 2017 at 11:32 am

            Trust them to be pragmatic? Always the problem –
            pragmatism and idealism. I’m idealistic. I heard all that on the radio and understand the process and role of the leader – no issue with Shaw for me but can’t say the same about even CONSIDERING this decision – the people inspired today will be uninspired tomorrow of that I’m certain.

            I hope the vegreens don’t pack on me now lol

            • McFlock 5.7.1.1.1.1
              10 August 2017 at 12:08 pm

              Well, of course it has to be considered. There’s a process to go through.

              And I’m pretty sure that any reasonable process would thoroughly and impartially examine the situation, take into account all relevant factors, and then courteously but firmly tell him to fuck off.

              You don’t get to shit on your friends like that and then swan back into the circle when the one you don’t like leaves to have a shower.

            • weka 5.7.1.1.1.2
              10 August 2017 at 12:22 pm

              “Trust them to be pragmatic? Always the problem –
              pragmatism and idealism.”

              No, I meant trust their own words rather than relying on what the MSM interpretations, because IME the Greens are honest in their communication, and if what they say doesn’t make sense there’s usually a good reason for that related to not understanding them on their own terms. And that the MSM and many commentators often end up with interpretations based on really not understanding what the Greens are doing. This is a serious issue for the Greens, a long standing one, I don’t know what the solution is.

              I don’t know what the internal processes are, and I think it’s valid for people to be nervous, all I’m suggesting is that people give the Greens the benefit of the doubt about process because they’re good at this stuff, and also, tweet, email, FB, phone them and let them know what you think 😈

  6. miravox 6
    10 August 2017 at 8:06 am

    A health system that’s the envy of the world according to Johnathan Coleman, when he spoke to a conglomerate of cancer charities.

    Oh how I laughed, reading this on the same day I was pleading with my specialist to write me a letter so the medication I get in Europe would be available to me when I get back to NZ. It’s not that it’s not available in NZ (do not be fobbed off with the “but it’s available” line), it’s that the criteria for approval is too high.

    By noting Legatum and the US as envious of the NZ health system, Coleman is not looking beyond his own ideological blinkers when making that statement either.

    One point he made that I did agree with is that approvals and access should be Pharmac decisions, not political decisions. From my point of view, both John Key (herceptin) and Andrew Little (keytruda) were both guilty of politicising medicines decisions. It is, however the job of politicians to ensure Pharmac is adequately (and for fairness sake) publicly funded. Coleman should be working on that.

    Meanwhile

    According to data from Medicines NZ, the country ranks 19th of 20 comparable countries in the OECD when it comes to waiting times for funding all new medicines and innovative treatments, and in some cases funds no medicines for specific cancers.

    Which pretty much contradicts Coleman’s claims of a health system that’s the envy of the world – (well, at least the countries NZ likes to compare itself with in all those ‘best of’ lists).

    • tc 6.1
      10 August 2017 at 9:54 am

      Envy of the neoliberal world. Fify

      • miravox 6.1.1
        10 August 2017 at 8:01 pm

        Probably stumped as to why the US only ranks 31st in life expectancy when it spends so much more on health than any other country.

    • Herodotus 6.2
      10 August 2017 at 12:44 pm

      Some here may not like anyone supporting David Seymour, yet he has become a strong supporter for this Intraoperative Therapy, and Dr.Erica Whinery Kelly should be commended for all her efforts in progressing this form of treatment
      This interview is IMO well worth listening to.
      http://www.95bfm.com/bcast/david-seymour-presents-an-alternative-treatment-for-breast-cancer-patients
      And as a support person for someone who has been treated both by: the traditional 5 week radio therapy treatment and this IORT. I cannot see why both the government and those within the health industry are so opposed to this.
      http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/81143167/calls-for-public-funding-of-new-oneoff-breast-cancer-treatment

      • miravox 6.2.1
        10 August 2017 at 7:51 pm

        This is an interesting issue. There some research around rural women’s access to breast cancer treatment and the difficult considerations they must weigh up before embarking on a course of treatment, so I can see how important this treatment appears to be, especially for these women but also others. It’s not a surprise that Dr.Erica Whinery Kelly has highlighted Mid-Central DHB .

        If the evidence shows a treatment is effective, then of course politicians like Seymour should be asking the question about funding. It seems a no-brainer if IORT is cheaper and just as effective for traditional therapies (a quick look at recent papers suggests funding approval might be a confirmation of appropriate use issue?)

        Generally though, as much as I respect the right of politicians to highlight treatment options and the funding of them, it’s the politicians making decisions about treatment that disturbs me (as Key did with making herceptin funding an election promise).

        I’d also respect these lobbying politicians much more if they insisted on adequate funding for DHBs and Pharmac – to provide them with the resources to ensure all New Zealanders have equitable and timely access to good and effective treatment options. I doubt Seymour or Coleman are that sort of politician.

  7. marty mars 7
    10 August 2017 at 8:08 am

    wow just wow – and they are not good wow’s

    Nearly every dairy farm in the Selwyn district would need to be shut down for a polluted lake to meet national water quality standards, Environment Canterbury (ECan) has told the Government.

    The resulting $300 million annual loss in the district’s operating surplus would fundamentally change its economic and social fabric, it said.

    It would likely lead to a reduction in employment, depopulation, and bankruptcies. They were the findings of a business case analysis prepared by ECan for the Ministry for the Environment and obtained by Stuff. It has not yet been publicly released…

    …The lake is expected to become more polluted over time. Its nitrogen load of 3200 tonne is projected to increase to 5600t, partly due to the Central Plains Water irrigation scheme.

    ECan hoped to limit the increase to 4800t by 2037 – still an increase of 50 per cent of current levels.

    ECan councillor Lan Pham said funding clean-ups was pointless in such a case.

    “We’re just throwing our money away if we’re not actually addressing the sources of the pollution.”

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/95610302/improving-lake-to-national-standard-would-have-severe-social-and-economic-consequences

    Yep they would let Te Waihora/Lake Ellesmere die before doing anything.

    • miravox 7.1
      10 August 2017 at 8:36 am

      I really hope they tell them to fuck right off!

      The priorities in this report goes all the way back to the 2010 anti-democratic decision by the National Government to sack ECan Councillors and replace them with commissioners. I don’t hold out much hope for Te Waihora/Lake Ellesmere unless we change the government.

      • Bob 7.1.1
        10 August 2017 at 8:40 am

        Yes this needs to be talked about more often, that move at Evan was doctoral to say the least.
        The Nats only know one way, that’s Divide and rule!! And they call the other side Communists! Hypocracy !!!

        #letsdothis

    • Gabby 7.2
      10 August 2017 at 10:30 am

      Can’t they, like, fine polluting farms? Or even say hey guys stop the polluting?

    • Draco T Bastard 7.3
      10 August 2017 at 12:31 pm

      It would likely lead to a reduction in employment, depopulation, and bankruptcies.

      Then that’s what needs to happen.

  8. Eco maori 8
    10 August 2017 at 8:42 am

    Just read that Bob Jones’s is going to build the tallest wooden office building in the world it’s good to see that some business people are getting on the sustainability train

  9. ScottGN 9
    10 August 2017 at 9:02 am

    Stephen Mills on Morning Report this morning suggesting there are rumours that Curia’s tracking poll for National has the Greens sliding below 5%?

  10. eco maori 10
    10 August 2017 at 9:32 am

    Did any one watch Hillary Barry read that TXT this morning on Metiria that was a national troll anyone could see that the stories were all fake!!!! to damage the greens image

  11. greywarshark 11
    10 August 2017 at 10:11 am

    At Bowalley Road Chris Trotter looks at Metiria’s desire to stand down completely from Parliament. He is thinking apparently that politics is basically the art of achieving the possible. If virtue is achieved by being too pure and idealistic and nothing else can be accepted then politics is getting into dangerous territory and refer to the Jacobins and how their virtuous tide got tarnished by being taken beyond the extremes and flipped back on itself.

    So should Metiria step down? She has won many people’s admiration, mine amongst them. The strength of the attack from the self-centred and those hostile to human rights, except theirs, indicates she has pierced the skin of complacent, uncaring, money-mad NZ. She is more than disappointed, and she is drained from holding herself erect while the barrage sweeps round her.

    For that reason she shouldn’t go, just go back on the List. Change your mind Metiria. We need you, the Greens have to put little figures on their model landscape, we are needy animals wanting the proper treatment for our condition of die-back too. So don’t whisk Metiria away, she has brought you up to a higher level, which can result you gaining new adherents and bring you to 18% from 8% back to 10-12% with people joining from the ranks of those with nothing to lose and a life to gain.

    This is what Chris said in Bowalley:
    http://bowalleyroad.blogspot.co.nz/

    Thus does History instruct us. That any political movement which abandons the reasonable pursuit of achievable objectives and embraces instead a regime dedicated to the imposition and enforcement of a universal and uncompromising “republic of virtue”, may begin by executing its enemies, but it will end by making enemies of, and executing, its friends. Freedom can never be secured by coercion. Every revolutionary movement which tried has ended up devouring itself.

    If the Greens have indeed entered their Jacobin phase, it is likely to be their last.

    • weka 11.1
      10 August 2017 at 12:54 pm

      no idea wtf he is on about, but I’ve been wondering if it would turn out he’s a fair weather friend.

      • alwyn 11.1.1
        10 August 2017 at 2:37 pm

        ” if it would turn out he’s a fair weather friend.”

        I f you mean a friend of the Green Party I think you would wrong to think of him as a friend, fair weather or foul.
        Chris is, and I think has always been, a friend of the Labour Party. He doesn’t give a damn about any other party I would think except so far as they can damage Labour’s enemies.

        He is rather fun to read though. Can you imagine any other commentator who would talk about a “sibilant kiss” as he did here.

        “Robespierre, himself, was declared an “enemy of the people” and laid open to Madame Guillotine’s sibilant kiss”.

        • In Vino 11.1.1.1
          10 August 2017 at 7:37 pm

          To my mind Chris has a great knowledge of history, and what he has learned from that is what he is most loyal to. (Including good writing. History depends upon good writers!)
          Labour cops plenty of his criticism, but others who have small historical knowledge rush to slate him whenever he writes something unfavourable for their particular political clique. He ends up being attacked from all quarters – but I always eagerly click on his articles. And I don’t think he is entirely serious about the Greens being in the Jacobin phase. The analogy is almost ironic.
          But it seems applicable at the moment in some ways..

      • Stuart Munro 11.1.2
        11 August 2017 at 2:23 pm

        Chris has dark moments when his analysis suffers – he penned an anti-Corbyn piece a couple of months back – he’d bought the negative media mood.

    • francesca 11.2
      10 August 2017 at 2:27 pm

      And yet in another recent post he talked up the virtues of remaining true to your core policies even if it meant working from outside parliament
      I sometimes think he’s trying too hard to shoehorn his latest reading matter in to current politics
      And lets not forget that anti apartheid protestors, anti slavers and suffragettes were all deemed to be either terrorists or dangerous nutters.They didn’t prevail by pandering to the less brave
      And we’ll see how the Greens deal with their two dissenters, if I know the Greens it’ll be anything but Jacobinist

      • In Vino 11.2.1
        10 August 2017 at 7:46 pm

        Agree. But with Chris I don’t think it is just his latest reading matter. My impression is that he remembers just about all he has read, which few of us can do. He shoehorns when he sees it as relevant.

        • greywarshark 11.2.1.1
          10 August 2017 at 7:53 pm

          I think Chris opens his mind to other possibilities than would be considered by a focussed person with the view that their thinking is The One Way. So he tries to present different scenarios. It’s amazing that we all don’t think the same isn’t it. Never mind all will be explained by a clear and well modulated AI voice in the future and disagreement will be futile.

          • In Vino 11.2.1.1.1
            11 August 2017 at 12:32 am

            If I weren’t so old as to be unable to wait much, I would say that I can hardly wait. But I agree with your first two sentences.

    • Carolyn_nth 11.3
      10 August 2017 at 7:55 pm

      Then there’s this little flight of inspiring fantasy on The Daily Blog today.

      IT WAS SHORTLY AFTER MARAMA DAVIDSON’S impassioned appeal to Metiria Turei’s devastated supporters, that the “Avenge Metiria” meme made its first appearance. No one’s entirely sure who started it, but pretty soon it was all over social media. Then the ideas for action started pouring in to the Green Party HQ. Though expressed in a multitude of ways, the message was clear: “If Metiria is to be avenged, then we have to get her supporters to the polls!”

  12. dv 12
    10 August 2017 at 10:12 am

    There has been a series of investigation of cops removing kids under care and protection orders.
    Some of the video is horrific
    AND there has been no reaction in MSM,I have seen.
    This needs a wider distribution.

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2017/08/07/41459/taken-by-the-state

    Police show up unannounced, during the night, at the home of a 5-year-old girl’s mother. They have a warrant, issued by a Family Court judge, for the removal of the child, by force if necessary – and it is clear the police are not leaving without her.

    The child screams, cries for her mother, and tries to escape the officers by hiding behind a couch. Inevitably, she’s caught, lifted into the air and carried through the living room, kicking and wailing. Her mother films the scene, as the girl’s grandfather pleads with police not to hurt her. One of the officers calls the grandfather an “idiot” and as the girl is taken into the night she screams: “I’m going to vomit”.

    Circumstances would suggest the girl was in grievous danger. Why else would three uniformed officers show up in the night and whisk a child into a police car?

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2017/08/08/41759/minister-no-changes-to-child-warrants

    Justice Minister Amy Adams says no changes are planned to the law covering Family Court ‘uplift’ warrants where children can be taken from parents by police without notice – even when a child is not at immediate risk.

    While she felt judges should decline to order such warrants if they “considered they didn’t have enough information”and said the government was concerned to ensure protections for children are “sufficient and appropriate” she said no improvements were planned to the Care of Children Act.

    There will be times that there is a need to remove kids from a nasty situation.
    BUT Adams view seems willfully blind. Sort of like that min of health.

    • Gabby 12.1
      10 August 2017 at 10:32 am

      Hard to say. Can you give any background on the family situation?

      • dv 12.1.1
        10 August 2017 at 11:07 am

        Gabby, follow the links. There is a discussion about the family situation.
        But dragging a screaming 5 year old away from her mother doesnt seem to be the best way.

      • Molly 12.1.2
        10 August 2017 at 11:59 am

        If you take time to watch the fifteen minute video in the first linked article, it will give you some background to the situation.

        The mother went to put the child on the plane to return them to the custodial parent, but the child reacted so strongly to leaving her mother that Air New Zealand refused to put her on the plane.

        The mother contacted the father to say that she was not able to get on the flight, and they would attempt the seven-hour drive to return her the next day.

        Due to the ongoing distress of the child, the mother also contacted the child’s lawyer, and the local GP to ensure that the child was well. She also contacted CYFS to make them aware that they had missed the return of the child on the contracted date. They told her they would be in touch.

        She also contacted the police. Unbeknownst to her, the decision to get a judge to give an “uplift” warrant had already begun.

        She was still awaiting contact from CYFS, when the police arrived to return the child to the father.

        The warrant was issued – not because of concern about the wellbeing of the child – but because of the failure to return the child at the appropriate time.

        In terms of child trauma, this response is inappropriate.

        • Draco T Bastard 12.1.2.1
          10 August 2017 at 12:30 pm

          Why doesn’t the child want to be with the father?
          The father must have lied to get this action from the police.
          The police obviously didn’t talk to either themselves or to CYFS first. And I’d say that the father bypassed process as well.

          By the sounds of things, the mother did everything right.

          • dv 12.1.2.1.1
            10 August 2017 at 12:39 pm

            AND YET Adams says no problem!!!!

          • Molly 12.1.2.1.2
            10 August 2017 at 1:51 pm

            “Why doesn’t the child want to be with the father?”
            I wouldn’t know. I would think that thought lead to the mother making an appointment with the GP to determine that all was OK. Anything else is only further speculation.

            “The father must have lied to get this action from the police.”
            No. Apparently the system is set up so that failure to comply with a court order for custody or visitation – and in this case it was failure to return the child on the stipulated date – gives automatic heft to a compliance order, which may result in an uplift order enacted by the police.

            “The police obviously didn’t talk to either themselves or to CYFS first.”
            Even if they did, they would act in accordance with the uplift order. Rightly or wrongly.

            “And I’d say that the father bypassed process as well.
            I’d say he acted within the system. But the result would have been traumatic for his child. My personal response would be to arrange to pick up the child myself, and have support staff available for pickup but that is a process that requires time, effort and exemplary social department resources.

            “By the sounds of things, the mother did everything right.”
            And many would agree with you. Myself included. But our concern is for the child’s wellbeing, not compliance with a system that is flawed and often deeply traumatising. It is hard to watch the video of the 14 yr old boy without empathising with his distress. And it is impossible to imagine that his mother would agree with such actions if she was to witness what an uplift order meant for her child. Not if she truly had his wellbeing at heart.

            • Draco T Bastard 12.1.2.1.2.1
              10 August 2017 at 2:23 pm

              I wouldn’t know.

              I was asking more in the lines of: There is something seriously wrong here if the child doesn’t want to go back, is anybody looking?

              No. Apparently the system is set up so that failure to comply with a court order for custody or visitation – and in this case it was failure to return the child on the stipulated date – gives automatic heft to a compliance order, which may result in an uplift order enacted by the police.

              I assume that the only way for the police to know about it is if the father told them and he had been contacted by the mother telling him what was happening and knowing the child would be returned next day. For the police to act as they did and as fast as they did he must have told them that the mother had said that she’s not returning the child at all.

              I’d say he acted within the system.

              Probably but did he go to the child’s lawyer first? Surely that would be the first thing to do to ensure that communications aren’t bypassing each other.

              • Molly …
                10 August 2017 at 3:09 pm

                “I was asking more in the lines of: There is something seriously wrong here if the child doesn’t want to go back, is anybody looking?”
                Yes, I understood that. But I also understand that a child can behave quite dramatically to situations that do not warrant further investigations. The mother understandably took the child to a local GP, who found no indication of physical harm (psychological and mental harm is much harder to identify).

                I would suggest that a two-day visit to a loving mother and doting grandparents after a long hiatus, may have just passed too quickly for a small child. If the drive to return is seven hours, then it is unlikely it is a frequent occurrence. That is a possible explanation, given no evidence or concern has been identified.

                “I assume that the only way for the police to know about it is if the father told them and he had been contacted by the mother telling him what was happening and knowing the child would be returned next day. For the police to act as they did and as fast as they did he must have told them that the mother had said that she’s not returning the child at all.”

                The child’s lawyer will not make recommendations to either parent. They are supposed to be completely separate in order to ensure they act in the best interests of the child. I believe that is the response given to the mother when she got in contact with her. The mother herself contacted the police.

                The video is worth watching because of the commentary given by the advocate and the professor. They believe that if the judges granting the uplift warrants, and the parents requesting them actually viewed the consequences this situation would not be happening.

                The current system for non-compliance makes the use of uplift warrants as a means to ensure compliance a common one.

            • greywarshark 12.1.2.1.2.2
              10 August 2017 at 8:15 pm

              It seems that the child is just a pawn in a very nasty case of hijacking a child yet it is legal. Here is a case of a law being followed with extreme harm to the child and family instead of the protection it is supposed to provide. Metiria has to diddle her receipts from boarders or flatmates so she can finish her schooling and achieve something in her life but she couldn’t have been spoken of more harshly if she had been a child beater.

              If she didn’t have a job and salary would the police not also be likely to come to her home because some timetable set to suit the adults concerned was not adhered to, and the mother did all the right things but still there was police brutality. Children are traumatised for life by one event like this. The whole thing is disgraceful.

              I was talking to a health worker tonight who I met while we waited for a pizza. We agreed that NZrs won’t complain and will accept substandard outcomes, don’t stand up for themselves to get right and fair treatment, we are prepared to put up with shoddy everything. At work she finds forms not filled in properly and systems not carried out efficiently.

              It seems that the country has been trained to accept third best for citizens. This sort of disgraceful treatment of children is how the National Party consider is right for those who aren’t of the right class, or who have problems. If you do, then the police will thump you somehow, somewhere but if you’re on the right side the problems will just go away.

              • Molly …
                10 August 2017 at 8:35 pm

                I have a very good friend, whose daughter was a child placed with her from CYFS.

                The siblings who had been removed, spoke once of their memories. The boy has a very traumatic memory of playing with his siblings outside in the sun with the hose and laughing, and hearing a car pull up and the police were there and took the children – still in their togs and wet – away.

                The trauma of this incident remained with them all. And although such actions are sometimes necessary, the resources needed to aid them through such unexpected separation is not available.

                To remove children is sometimes necessary. But just as important, is appropriate care and support after that removal.

                That being said, I don’t think the case above was about removal for the wellbeing of the child. It appears to be something that is unfortunately becoming common as a result of non-compliance of custody orders. The trauma for the child must be immense, and it is hard to see any caring parent wanting their children to go through this for that reason alone.

                • greywarshark …
                  10 August 2017 at 9:08 pm

                  Interesting Molly.
                  It is a disgraceful case of a hypocritical government lacking in any integrity making play with being the big I am over a legal decision about a child involving the child and caregivers.

                  If the police were ordered to pick up stolen property, capture a dog that was of value, they might behave in exactly the way that they did with this poor child.

                  You give the picture – this from your comment;
                  in this case it was failure to return the child on the stipulated date – gives automatic heft to a compliance order, which may result in an uplift order enacted by the police.

                  and from you at 12.1.2
                  The mother went to put the child on the plane to return them to the custodial parent, but the child reacted so strongly to leaving her mother that Air New Zealand refused to put her on the plane.

                  The mother then did: The mother contacted the father to say that she was not able to get on the flight, and they would attempt the seven-hour drive to return her the next day.

                  She also did: Due to the ongoing distress of the child, the mother also contacted the child’s lawyer, and the local GP to ensure that the child was well. She also contacted CYFS to make them aware that they had missed the return of the child on the contracted date. They told her they would be in touch.

                  She also did: She also contacted the police. Unbeknownst to her, the decision to get a judge to give an “uplift” warrant had already begun.

                  Note: She was still awaiting contact from CYFS, when the police arrived to return the child to the father.

                  Cold impersonal callous punitive-type law: The warrant was issued – not because of concern about the wellbeing of the child – but because of the failure to return the child at the appropriate time.

                  In terms of child trauma, this response is inappropriate.

                  Perhaps we should appeal to the SPCA. (The British version of the SPCA was started before there was an agency for helping children, I think the NSPCC!)

                  I haven’t watched the video but knowing your reasoned style, you have explained the steps and the whole situation.

                  It is disgraceful law, with the government making no allowance for the good and kind care of vulnerable children they always say they regard as very important. The law should be changed. And very soon.

                  And further there should be a panel of citizens who can step in at times like this, and get draconian laws abated, conduct our own enquiry into its performance and ensure it meets all psychological and physical needs of the child and caregivers with the emphasis being on the child’s short term happiness, and then attention given to assist long term happiness.

  13. eco maori 13
    10 August 2017 at 11:10 am

    yes yes the sheep think that the police are the protectors of the public and that they would never break NZ law SORRY THEY ARE JUST LIKE THERE MASTER FOR 9 YEARS
    NATIONAL BEND AND BREAK ANY LAW AND SIT BACK AND SAY PROVE IT

    • tc 14.1
      10 August 2017 at 11:27 am

      Predictable and intersting to see if he tempers his nat fanboy approach hedging his bets for potential new paymasters

    • mary_a 14.2
      10 August 2017 at 11:37 am

      @ Carolyn_nth (14) … quite believable really, considering Hosking is part of the despicable msm, the scum which put pressure on Metiria to step down, thereby depriving NZ’s vulnerable of a true champion to speak on their behalf!

      This decision by TVNZ proves the intelligence level at the network, must be severely lacking, if Hosking is the best it has to host the debates!

    • DoublePlusGood 14.3
      10 August 2017 at 11:53 am

      Labour and the Greens should just say “No. We will not participate in such a debate.” and favour the other channel’s debates instead.

  15. joe90 15
    10 August 2017 at 11:26 am

    Meanwhile, behind the Whitehouse….

  16. Carolyn_nth 16
    10 August 2017 at 11:39 am

    Statement from Auckland Action Against Poverty, which I agree with:

    POSTED BY VANESSA COLE 52SC ON AUGUST 10, 2017
    Auckland Action Against Poverty would like to send our support to Metiria Turei for making a stand for beneficiaries and unemployed workers facing the cold face of neoliberal capitalism.

    “The resignation of Metiria is a symbol that our political parties support the votes and desires of the wealthy over the poor,” says Vanessa Cole, Co-ordinator of Auckland Action Against Poverty.

    “The treatment of Metiria by the media and glorified public opinion is emblematic of the way we treat the poor and unemployed in this country.

    “The sustained attack on social welfare over the last 40 years enables people to blame the poor for their situation and justifies punitive policies which place people in further financial hardship.

    “The wealthy have to justify poverty by blaming the unemployed for unemployment in order to mask the reality that the wealthy profit from poverty.

    “Poverty is not an individual behaviour or choice. It is, however, a political and economic choice by the rich who continue to accumulate wealth at the expense of those who actually produce it.

    “Sole mothers are workers, underpaid and under-resourced, and we should be outraged that they are being punished by a system which is supposed to protect them.

    “People are forced into poverty through low benefit rates, precarious work, inadequate state housing supply and punitive policies imposed by the toxic culture of Work & Income.

    “For the unemployed workers who come to see us seeking advocacy, having to choose between food and rent is not a real choice when the threat of eviction is looming over their heads.

    “Metiria’s treatment shows what happens to people who break the silence on this war against the poor, and AAAP thank her for taking this stand at great personal cost.

    “The struggle for a welfare system which provides enough income and support for people to live with dignity will continue beyond the ballot box.

    “This is a war on the poor, and we must stand up and fight back together.”

    • eco maori 16.1
      10 August 2017 at 11:48 am

      YES IT IS A WAR ON THE POOR IF YOU ARE WORRIED WERE THE NEXT MEAL IS COMING FROM THEY WILL NOT BOTHER TO VOTE . WHEN LABOR GET ELECTED THEY SHOULD MAKE COMPULSORY TO VOTE THAT WILL CHANGE THINGS AND KEEP THE POLITICIANS LOOKING AFTER THE PEOPLE

      • mauī 16.1.1
        10 August 2017 at 5:08 pm

        Hey mate, just a heads up if you write in capital letters you will probably cop a ban from moderators for “shouting text” on this blog.

  17. Draco T Bastard 17
    10 August 2017 at 12:17 pm

    Estimated time before all the iron sands off of Taranaki are all gone? 35 years:

    Under the Crown Minerals Act, TTRL has obtained a mining licence for 20 years, which expires in 2034. It is seeking a marine consents and marine discharge consents under the EEZ Act, with a duration of 35 years.

    This is not a sustainable way to run the economy. We’re extracting the resources as if there’s no end to them despite the fact that we know that there is an to them.

    The end result is that we’ll be poor because we’ll no longer have the resources necessary to support us.

  18. popexplosion 18
    10 August 2017 at 1:15 pm

    So has Kim got nukes and needs to show off one… …Will Trump be rolled… ..did Trump know the right put Penne on the ticket, that’s why Trump is burning Presidential influence so Penne is a lameduck having gained power on Trumps ticket. Kim’s going to blow something up soon and Trump is too weak or so Kim thinks.

  19. eco Maori/kiwi 19
    10 August 2017 at 2:15 pm

    I agree with you Draco we have to change the way we use things at least its starting to happen but it is to slow things will change when National are kicked out

  20. Ad 20
    10 August 2017 at 2:22 pm

    Just in case you wondered where the opposition to all the commie talk about welfare and rivers is, get ready for the next marketing push from National’s funders at Barfoot&Thompson, plus of course the retail banks: People who vote according to property.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11901728

    “Auckland’s house prices could skyrocket again in one to two years driven in part by the public’s view of property as a money-making asset in a market where stocks are limited.

    New academic research suggested recent changes to the loan-to-value ratio restrictions that eased pressure on the market by reducing low-deposit loans would not keep the prices at bay for long.”

    Titled Catch Animal Spirits in Auction: Evidence from New Zealand Property Market, it showed house prices had increased more than 50 per cent between 2013 and 2015.

    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/1540-6229.12206/full

    This election isn’t going to be about welfare.

    It’s going to be about whether National can scare enough people that under Labour they will lose great chunks of their equity in property.

  21. Pete 21
    10 August 2017 at 2:48 pm

    Simon Bridges in the House proving again his parents spelt Slimin’ wrong.

  22. ianmac 22
    10 August 2017 at 3:09 pm

    At this late stage in the Electoral cycle we have lost 2 Leaders.

    Would it be a hat-trick if the Leader of the National Party was dismasted by Winston’s revelations, or his Deputy Leader having to face DPB revelations and forced to quit?.

  23. Pete 23
    10 August 2017 at 3:57 pm

    Nikki Kaye beaming out from the Herald online. The Good Fairy is bringing us more presents by way of new classrooms in Auckland. Spare me!

    The bloody population of the city is going up like crazy and she’s being little Miss Wonderful by simply catering for the growth by providing rooms?! I can see a Damehood just around the corner for services to mankind.

  24. Anne 24
    10 August 2017 at 6:32 pm

    Where is Daily Review!

    Just picked up this from Checkpoint. Fascinating. It appears both Glenys Dickson and Stuart Davies of Barclay Affair fame are now members of another political party. Would that be NZ First? If so, then it is highly likely Winston Peters does have copies of the 450 texts English sent to Dickson around 18 months ago.

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/201854299/pm-staying-quiet-on-450-texts-to-todd-barclay-s-staff-member

    The segment begins at 4:28 mins.

  25. greywarshark 25
    10 August 2017 at 9:21 pm

    In case you haven’t spotted this from No Right Turn:

    Another sign of the decay in transparency under National: the Department of Internal Affairs unlawfully allowed lawyers for foreign vampire capitalist Peter Thiel to veto what was released about him under the OIA: An Official Information Act request by the ..
    http://norightturn.blogspot.co.nz/2017/08/public-servants-should-work-for-us-not.html
    WTF

    And there is another piece on a housing warrant of fitness.

    I’m too weary to read them but both will push buttons. Ding, ding.