Open mike 11/09/2024

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, September 11th, 2024 - 108 comments
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108 comments on “Open mike 11/09/2024 ”

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  1. Jenny 1
    11 September 2024 at 7:18 am

    Germany provokes China

    This is not normal

    German warships to pass through Taiwan Strait this month, Spiegel says
    By Reuters
    September 8, 20243:31 AM GMT+12

    …..Reuters reported last month that the warships were awaiting orders from Berlin to sail the Strait, prompting a rebuke to Germany from Beijing.
    Spiegel cited unspecified sources as saying Beijing would not be formally notified of the German ships’ passage to emphasise that Berlin views the trip as normal…..

    https://www.reuters.com/world/german-warships-pass-through-taiwan-strait-this-month-spiegel-says-2024-09-07/

    “Normal”?

    Really?, Germany sailing two warships to the other side of the globe to buzz the coast of China is "normal’?

    This is not normal

    What the hell is a German warship doing in the Taiwan Strait?
    It is certainly not defending Germany.

    And what’s the second one for? to pick the dead and wounded from the water, in any encounter?

    An obvious incitement of the Chinese to take pot shots at their warship, is not doing anything to lessen itensions in the Pacific region.

    Don't get me wrong, I fully support the right of the people of Taiwan to their sovereignty, including their right to formally cecede from China if that is their wish.
    But surely even an idiot would have to admit that China has some right to the shared waterway between them.

    “Beijing would not be formally notified of the German ships’ passage….”

    What if; two Chinese war ships circled half way around the globe to enter the Baltic Sea through the Fehmarn Belt, the narrow sea passage between Germany and Denmark, saying Berlin woulld not be formally notified?

    What if; the Chinese and Russian navy, held a major military exercise in the Baltic? Would the Germans be right to be worried, if not alarmed? What if the Chinese and Russians invited Iran to join their military exercise in the Baltic?

    What if the Iaranian military declined to answer questions about its participation in the exercise?

    RIMPAC public affairs confirmed Israel would take part but said it would have no aircraft or ships in the exercise. The Israeli military declined to answer questions about its participation in the exercise.

    https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/6/28/worlds-largest-maritime-drills-begin-in-an-increasingly-tense-asia-pacific#

    We're through the looking glass here, folks.

    Russia is close to signing new bilateral treaty with Iran: Shoigu

    Despite facing charges of committing genocide before the world Court, Israeli forces invited to military exercise in the Pacific.

    What if Russia invited, treaty partners China and Iran and even North Korea to take part in a military exercise in the Baltic?

    Would that be normal?

    • Jenny 1.1
      11 September 2024 at 7:37 am

      "How did the war start?"

    • mikesh 1.2
      11 September 2024 at 8:37 am

      It looks like madness on Germany's part but I'm wondering if the US has asked them to do this, hoping to create an international "incident" if China reacts. Perhaps Germany is to be the "canary in the coal mine".

      However, I guess China is entitled to its "Monroe doctrine" just as much as the US.

    • Barfly 1.3
      11 September 2024 at 9:26 am

      ROFL … The Taiwan Straight is 130km wide at its narrowest. The dam thing contains…..

      A 91km wide stretch of International water

      • Subliminal 1.3.1
        11 September 2024 at 10:32 am

        I think the point is why the German navy needs to sail around the world to this piece of "international water". It is completely ludicrous and can only be viewed as an attempt to aggravate China. It is interesting that at a time when German industry is exploring working more closely with China in an attempt to mitigate the loss of Nordstream gas, the govt is again undermining its own industrial base. As stated above, the only conclusion is that the German government prioritises its subservience to the US over its own interests. In case there was still any doubt after Nordstream…

      • Jenny 1.3.2
        11 September 2024 at 10:39 am

        Barfly @1.3

        11 September 2024 at 9:26 am

        ROFL … The Taiwan Straight is 130km wide at its narrowest. The dam thing contains…..

        A 91km wide stretch of International water

        What’s your point?

        Though admitedly much narrower, the whole of the Fehmarm Belt, the straits between Germany and Denmark, are also considered to be international waters.

        From Wikipedia the online encyclopedia

        …..following territorial losses, Øresund and Fehmarn Belt are now shared with Sweden and Germany,…

        …The straits have generally been regarded as an international waterway.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danish_straits#:~:text=The%20Copenhagen%20Convention%20of%201857,regarded%20as%20an%20international%20waterway.

        I admit I am guessing here Barfly. But you don't think the Germans would have any legitimate concerns if the Chinese Navy crossed two oceans and passed through the Fehmarm Strait unannounced?

        Y'know, being international waters and all that.

        • Belladonna 1.3.2.1
          11 September 2024 at 10:55 am

          The chances of the Chinese navy actually being able to cross two oceans seems, in itself, unlikely, it's very much a coastal-water fleet.

          Given that the Russian fleet (a much more realistic threat to German interests) does indeed sail through the Fehmarn Belt – it seems highly unlikely that Germany would jump up and down, and ban the Chinese from doing likewise.

          https://euro-sd.com/2022/07/articles/exclusive/26754/admiral-gorshkov/

          The Germans may be highly suspicious of the motives – but have made no attempt to ban other navies from sailing International waters (even ones close to home).

        • Scud 1.3.2.2
          11 September 2024 at 2:58 pm

          Actually China sent a Small Task Force Group to the recent Russian Navy Day Regatta/ Parade at St Petersburg this yr.

    • Belladonna 1.4
      11 September 2024 at 10:48 am

      Note that the Taiwan Strait is not a 'shared waterway'. China claims it (along with Taiwan) as Chinese territory. Taiwan (and the US) regard it as international waters (at least the navigable strip in the centre).

      And a very large corridor of international cargo shipping passes down it.

      The two German naval vessels are not sailing East for the express purpose of sailing through the Taiwan Strait – they are participating in joint naval exercises in the region.

      The two German vessels are participating in exercises in the region with France, Indonesia, Italy, Japan, Malaysia, Singapore, the Philippines and the US.

      https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/archives/2024/09/09/2003823479

      As a country dependent on international trade, which has a navy completely incapable of protecting our shipping; we should be very cautious over condemning the navies which actually do protect shipping – especially from pirates (the Houthi in the Red Sea are the most recent example) – but also from countries which are undertaking a rapid naval build-up with no obvious reason (China).

      • Subliminal 1.4.1
        11 September 2024 at 11:14 am

        The Houthi are one of the few countries taking the genocide in Gaza seriously. They have stated numerous times that the blockade on Israel will end when the blockade and genocide on Gaza ends. Characterising the UK/US continuing agression on Yemen (since 2015) as the good fight is perverse. Prior to the latest Gaza genocide, Yemen was blockaded and starved along similar lines. Using the term "pirates" may make you feel good but unlike the US/UK agression, they at least have clearly stated principles and conditions for cessation

        • Belladonna 1.4.1.1
          11 September 2024 at 11:42 am

          Given that they are randomly attacking all freight in the Red Sea – including shipping with zero connection to Israel – their rhetoric on this subject is frankly unbelievable.

          Much more likely to be a in search of international pay offs to leave shipping alone. It's called blackmail.

          Their latest effort – deliberately boarding an oil tanker (which had been abandoned as the result of a previous attack) and setting it on fire (deliberately set explosions – not an accident) – beggars belief.

          https://apnews.com/article/red-sea-attack-sounion-yemen-houthi-rebels-israel-hamas-war-76c68f18a984d18905ce7c84e5cabe0c

          • Subliminal 1.4.1.1.1
            11 September 2024 at 12:14 pm

            Call it what you like but the fact remains that name calling only serves to whip up hysteria to the point where any western response, no matter how soaked in blood can be justified.

            Just as with your defence of Israel, it serves your purpose to ignore history and context. Making out that the Houthi just magically appeared in order to cash in on Middle East problems is extreme ignorance.

            You may remember Air NZ getting in hot water over servicing Saudi Navy Engines? This was because they were taking a leaf out of Israels book on Naval blockades. 20 million!! Yemeni were at the point of starvation

            In Yemen, 20 million people are in crisis, with another 3 million potentially facing starvation due to coronavirus. Because of funding cuts, 8.5 million beneficiaries only receive WFP assistance every other month.

            We have seen this story play out too many times … the world stands by until it is too late, while hunger kills – David Beasley

            “We’ll be forced cut rations for the remaining 4.4 million by December if resources do not increase,” stressed Mr. Beasley. “The world needs to open up its eyes to the Yemeni people before famine takes hold.”

            But of course, for you, people like the Yemeni and Palestinians have no signifiance and are just another impediment to international trade and your right to be a consumer.

            • Belladonna 1.4.1.1.1.1
              11 September 2024 at 12:51 pm

              I do hope that you, personally, are taking all appropriate steps to avoid purchasing anything which has come to NZ via the Red Sea, or via any shipping line which might have any connection to Israel in any way. After all, you want to support the Houthis and Palestinians.

              It might be best if you purchased nothing which was not entirely created in NZ; and indeed created within walking distance of where you live – since all of the oil/diesel for freight originates outside NZ. And see how easy you find it to live that way. If any of your IT items (phone, computer), for example, fail over the next year – you'd better go back to smoke signals to communicate.

              Sneering at the right to be a consumer, ignores that we are *all* consumers; and particularly in NZ, our entire lifestyle depends on international trade.

              I note that you've made no comment on the wanton environmental damage caused by the deliberate burning of an oil tanker.

              And also ignoring the much greater famine and ethnic cleansing going on in Sudan. But I guess the Sudanese don't fit your 'West is evil' narrative, either.

              • Subliminal …
                11 September 2024 at 1:05 pm

                Sneering at the right to be a consumer, ignores that we are *all* consumers; and particularly in NZ, our entire lifestyle depends on international trade.

                Good grief. Truism as argument?? There is a point at which other things trump consumerism. Shopping isn't everything.

                I note that you've made no comment on the wanton environmental damage caused by the deliberate burning of an oil tanker.

                Pathetic. When the US military packs up and goes home we can talk about a burning oil tanker

                And also ignoring the much greater famine and ethnic cleansing going on in Sudan. But I guess the Sudanese don't fit your 'West is evil' narrative, either.

                Also pathetic whataboutism. Theres always something else we could talk about. The latest 24 hour sale at Briscoes for example.

                • Belladonna …
                  11 September 2024 at 1:22 pm

                  Yep. Highly blinkered.

                  No point in further debate.

                  • Scud …
                    11 September 2024 at 3:12 pm

                    Yes another one that has forgotten what the Navy's role is and no doubt has forgotten what the NZ Navy was up too 25yrs ago a longer with the rest of the NZDF?

        • Tiger Mountain 1.4.1.2
          11 September 2024 at 3:11 pm

          yes

      • Scud 1.4.2
        11 September 2024 at 3:10 pm

        Your assumption that China is still a Brown Water Navy is incorrect.

        They have sent a number of Task Force Groups to various parts of the world the Russian Navy Day Regatta/ Parade, to the Sandpit plus exercising with the Russian Pacific Fleet this yr so far and have a couple of oversea bases for example Djibouti & in Cambodia.

        They are currently working up to have 3 Carrier Groups with its latest Carrier having Cats & Traps compared to the other Carriers that rely on Ski Jumps for Take Off. It's expected that China will construct at least another to 2-3 Carriers between this decade & the next decade.

        Plus their Submarine arm has or about to have parity with the US & it's Allies in the Pacific. With their Surface Fleet minus it's Carrier & Amphibious Groups will have parity with the US by the end of this decade.

    • lprent 1.5
      11 September 2024 at 4:28 pm

      Jenny: if I understand what you're trying to say, you seem to have some mistaken ideas about what or what is not valid passage in the law of the sea – which 169 countries have signed (including the PRC and Russian Federation)

      FFS: try to read up a bit on what you're talking about before making a ‘idiot’ of yourself. In this case I think that you have a confused idea about what the EEZ is compared to territorial maritime waters under international treaties. Warships aren't notable for their efforts in "the exploration and use of marine resources, including energy production from water and wind". Do try to read to the end of my comment…

      This is governed by the Convention of the Law of the Sea. (wikipedia gives a more accessible overview). It is one of the many international treaties that the Peoples Republic of China has signed up for. In this case

      SECTION 2. LIMITS OF THE TERRITORIAL SEA

      Article3

      Breadth of the territorial sea

      Every State has the right to establish the breadth of its territorial sea up to a limit not exceeding 12 nautical miles, measured from baselines determined in accordance with this Convention.

      The Taiwan strait are far wider than that (did you think that they were narrow?)

      The Taiwan Strait is a 180-kilometer (110 mi; 97 nmi)-wide strait separating the island of Taiwan and the Asian continent. The strait is part of the South China Sea and connects to the East China Sea to the north. The narrowest part is 130 km (81 mi; 70 nmi) wide.[1]

      So even if Formosa was still a province of China, warships of any country could, can and do travel through it provided that they don’t go within the maximum 12 nautical miles of any land masses and islands (regardless of which state who owns them). They neither need the permission of the PRC or Taiwan.

      What if Russia invited, treaty partners China and Iran and even North Korea to take part in a military exercise in the Baltic?

      The main entrance from the North Sea to the Baltic Sea is within the 12 nm limits of 3 nations. It is governed by its own convention and laws essentially making it possible to have free passage of warships in time of peace with some restrictions.

      You can examine that ordinance here. So in that case China, Iran, and North Korea could pass through after following the procedures of the authority of those territorial waters.

      Or of course, Russia could simply invite them to enter the Baltic sea via the canal that joins the White Sea with the Baltic Sea. It is a long way around but is covered by the LoS (and often a lot of sea-ice).

      Incidentally if you wanted to know more about the current naval issues in the Baltic sea, then I'd suggest reading this.

      But basically I think that you're confusing the nautical territorial rights (up to 12 nautical miles) with Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ) rights. Both are in the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea. That have separate purposes.

      But surely even an idiot would have to admit that China has some right to the shared waterway between them.

      Only an 'idiot' would confuse the (probably) separate non over-lapping rights of the economic zone between Taiwan and the PRC mainland with the maximum 12 nautical mile of a territorial limit.

      An 'idiot' who has no idea about what the international Law of the Sea actually is…

      sigh

      • Jenny 1.5.1
        13 September 2024 at 5:47 am

        I posed a question, Would the German people feel worried, or even alarmed, if the situation was reversed?

        In reply to Barfly who seems to think this behaviour is perfectly rational.

        I admit I am guessing here Barfly. But you don't think the Germans would have any legitimate concerns if the Chinese Navy crossed two oceans and passed through the Fehmarm Strait unannounced?

        Barfly @1.3

        11 September 2024 at 9:26 am

        ROFL … The Taiwan Straight is 130km wide at its narrowest. The dam thing contains…..

        A 91km wide stretch of International water

        It's not the width, it;'s the message it sends, is intended to send.

        Two German warships crossed two oceans to enter the Taiwan Strait between China and Taiwan, what for?

        To antagonise/inrimidate/annoy China?

        And this is considered "normal"?

        I was attempting to use metaphor to show how abnormal I think this situation is.

        But my metaphorical example is not that too far removed from reality.

        Russia, China Kick off Large Scale Naval Exercise

        Dzirhan Mahadzir

        September 11, 2024 6:22 PM – Updated: September 11, 2024 11:21 PM

        ….The exercise will include more than 400 warships, submarines and support vessels, over 120 naval aircraft and more than 90,000 personnel, the Russian Ministry of Defense announced on Tuesday. The drills will take place in the waters of the Pacific and Arctic oceans, Mediterranean, Caspian and Baltic seas, according to the MoD……

        https://news.usni.org/2024/09/11/russia-china-kick-off-large-scale-naval-exercise

        Two vast military forces are being arrayed against each other,

        That way there can never be a war.

        Mark my words Lynn. War is coming,

        The question I am posing Lynn, is this; Should we, Aotearoa/NZ, be part of this lunacy?

        @1:53 minutes (see above)

        Two superblocks developed, us the French and the Russians, on one side and the Germans and Austro-Hungary on the other.

        The idea was to have two vast opposing armies, each acting as the others deterrent, That way there could never be a war.

        Blackadder How did World War I Begin

        The preparations and practicing for World War III are underway, the ground work is being done, the necessary aliances are being lined up, on both sides. We are only, one miscalculation, one provocation away, In 1914 it took only one spark, the assassination of Duke Franz Ferdinand.
        What will spark it this time?
        A clash in the Taiwan Strait?
        The assassination of some embassy official attributed to the other side?
        A Chinese policing operation in the Pacific Islands that goes wrong, or is challenged by the Western powers?

        https://www.nbr.org/publication/chinas-police-security-in-the-pacific-islands/

  2. PsyclingLeft.Always 2
    11 September 2024 at 8:11 am

    "wonderful" Woolworths, paying shit wages and working conditions…. Workers strike !

    Thousands of Woolworths supermarket staff strike

    FIRST Union national retail secretary Rudd Hughes said staff from Woolworths stores in Auckland were arriving in Ponsonby for a protest.

    "We should see a really sizeable crowd here," he said. "We've been at the bargaining table for over 13 days. We're getting very little movement from the company. We've moved quite a long way in our claims, and you know, what we're hearing from them is that they don't want to move any further."

    ^ This from the $Billion dollar Grocery Duopoly : (

    A Woolworths spokesmouth bullshits…..

    "Making sure our team is paid fairly has always been a priority for us and we've brought a strong offer to the table in our discussions with FIRST Union," said a spokesperson. "We are one of the leaders in pay for our sector."

    And pouring on the Carewash….

    "In the current challenging economic environment, our customers need us to provide affordable food. We have to balance increasing costs in our business so we can provide more value for our customers.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/527561/thousands-of-woolworths-supermarket-staff-strike

    And on the "leaders in pay"…You start just above minimum wage (remembering this is a multi $Billion industry) and after five years…you move up slightly. Wow. Truly wonderful.

    What do supermarket workers really get paid?

    At Woolworths, a nightfill worker would start on an hourly rate of $24.93 at the moment, and move on to $26.21 after five years.

    A checkout operator would start on $25.03 and progress to $26.31 after five years

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/business/520663/what-do-supermarket-workers-really-get-paid

    Grocery workers struggle with low pay, understaffing and customer abuse

    Union national secretary for retail and finance Rudd Hughes said workers hailed as heroes during the Covid-19 pandemic were no longer treated that way by employers.

    More than 70 percent of those surveyed said their wages were not sufficient to cover living costs, and more than 60 percent of a sample size of 1514 workers said their pay rises over the past two years had not kept pace with rising costs.

    Hughes said the National-NZ First-ACT coalition's repeal of fair pay agreement legislation denied workers a pathway to negotiate minimum standards across the supermarket industry.

    "They've offered up a paltry tax cut, whereas fair pay agreements would have actually made a real difference to workers' wages."

    The survey showed 69 percent of workers had considered quitting in the past two years, and on top of this, 90 percent said their stores were understaffed.

    "Understaffing is a major contributor to workers' stress and burnout, and it makes supermarkets much more unsafe workplaces for staff than they should be," Hughes said.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/business/519921/grocery-workers-struggle-with-low-pay-understaffing-and-customer-abuse

    Grocery Duopoly saves by paying Workers the very least they can..and by minimising Staff levels.

    I'd say shame on them, but they have none. Workers.. Strike for your Rights !

  3. Rosielee 3
    11 September 2024 at 8:46 am

    So we should all refuse, on principle, to use those damned self serve machines which are taking peoples' jobs.

    • PsyclingLeft.Always 3.1
      11 September 2024 at 9:02 am

      And that loops right back to..the Grocery Duopoly minimising Staffing levels. Would be awesome if Customers supporting Workers joined together. Solidarity against them !

    • Incognito 3.2
      11 September 2024 at 9:08 am

      You’ve bought just a few necessary items in a carry-basket. One check-out is open with a short queue of quite full shopping trolleys and over there are a number of self-service check-out stations free. What do you do?

    • Belladonna 3.3
      11 September 2024 at 10:52 am

      Do you also refuse to use online banking or hole-in-the-wall machines?
      After all, they too 'take people's jobs'

      Do you still send all communications via mail (the posties are even more endangered than supermarket workers)?

  4. Reality 4
    11 September 2024 at 9:25 am

    I rarely use self-checkout on principle. I'm spending all that money so don't choose to do the supermarket's job for them by swiping and packing my groceries.

    • Belladonna 4.1
      11 September 2024 at 9:54 am

      Presumably you don't mind a 10 minute wait in line. Or can afford (as in time) to shop at quieter periods.

      I know that many retired people prefer the human-staffed checkouts for a couple of reasons: fewer technological challenges; and it may be their sole human-interaction of the day.

      Others have to use them: purchase of cigarettes or alcohol; or a desire to pay in cash (I'm constantly astonished at the number of people pulling out $200 or so in folding cash to pay for groceries)

      Interestingly, some supermarkets overseas are moving back to human-staffed checkouts – to combat the regular theft of items (they say it's customer service, but look further and you'll see the bottom line is prominent in their decision-making)

      https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/we-like-to-talk-to-people-supermarket-giant-ditching-self-checkout-for-staffed-tills/W5BAUBE2PJHVHMGN435VLXDM3E/

      • AB 4.1.1
        11 September 2024 at 12:25 pm

        I avoid self-checkouts because a few extra minutes is not material to me these days – but principally because the checkout operators are not any kinds of jobs. They are important entry-level jobs for students, some immigrants and working-class mothers getting back into part-time work after raising children. They are socially-important roles for this reason – building those baseline skills of cooperation, service, communication and understanding the importance of adherence to process and standards. If these jobs do not exist the state will have to create them as they used to do with PEP schemes and the like.

        However if there was a machine I could use that would remove the livelihoods of landlords, property speculators, forex traders, marketing executives, and all other types of wealth-extractors and social value-destroyers, you would have to drag me off the thing with a posse of security guards.

        • Belladonna 4.1.1.1
          11 September 2024 at 12:38 pm

          And do you also avoid online banking, and hole-in-the-wall cash machines? Or send all communications via post (posties are a much more endangered occupation than checkout operators)? Both of these jobs are arguably just as much 'entry-level' work, as supermarket workers.

          • AB 4.1.1.1.1
            11 September 2024 at 12:58 pm

            One does what is possible – makes a meagre contribution here and there befitting one's flawed moral nature. But my imperfections and inconsistencies do not alter the validity of my point.

            • Belladonna 4.1.1.1.1.1
              11 September 2024 at 1:19 pm

              Oh, so you only take action when it's convenient to you.
              Not exactly an ethical strong point, then.

              • AB …
                11 September 2024 at 3:08 pm

                You misunderstand. My point was never that I'm a particularly ethical person. That would be irrelevant and wrong in fact.

                My point was that although automated checkouts are no doubt economically efficient, efficiency is a minor virtue that has to serve some prior goal. It should not be elevated above its proper place. When efficiency contributes to the public good, we should be enthusiastic about it. But when efficiency is mostly enhancing a private good (e.g. supermarket shareholder dividends) and damaging a public good (high employment levels among the young and poor), then we have to be more sceptical about it.

                • Drowsy M. Kram …
                  11 September 2024 at 8:44 pm

                  yes

                • PsyclingLeft.Always …
                  12 September 2024 at 8:55 am

                  For the greater good is a concept alien and anathema to these type of companies , and, as I have said, this despite their vast amounts of advertised Carewashing.

                  Do they and their peers dream of McDonalds and Robot Arms ? IMO Yes.

                  The first mostly non-human-run McDonald’s is open for business just outside Fort Worth, Texas.

                  At just one location so far, customers can drive to the golden arches and expect to be served a Big Mac or a Happy Meal by a food and beverage conveyor instead of an actual, real-life human being.

                  But the stunt drew the ire of activists, who criticized the fast food corporation for entertaining the idea of a costly automatic restaurant rather than pay its workers a living wage.

                  The test restaurant plays into fears that jobs will one day be taken over by robots and automation, replacing the need for human employees.

                  And this also is a multi $ Billion company. And as for the (literally) poor who work there..?

                  n Texas, the minimum wage is $7.25 an hour and hasn’t increased in nearly a decade. It ranks above only Georgia and Wyoming’s minimum wage of $5.15, which is $2.10 less than the US federal minimum wage. Five other states have not adopted a set minimum wage: Alabama, Louisiana, Mississippi, South Carolina, and Tennessee.

                  Across the country, most McDonald’s workers earn less than $15 an hour – far below a living wage in nearly every state. McDonald’s is one of 300 publicly held companies with the lowest median worker wages, according to a 2021 Institute for Policy Studies report.

                  https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/dec/23/mcdonalds-automated-workers-fort-worth-texas

                  Absolutely disgusting.

                  Why I stand up about this…because for all the Carewash expounded by the Grocery Duopoly, if they could..they would minimise Human Staff..to max out their already massive profit.

                  Solidarity the only way for us to fight back.

                • Belladonna …
                  12 September 2024 at 10:38 am

                  So, based on this, you're just an condemnatory (if not more so) over the shift to online banking (and the consequential reduction in bricks and mortar access to banks); and the cost-driven reduction in mail (resulting in the removal of post offices from many communities, as well as employment prospects for the young and poor).

                  Both are 'economic' decisions – and the post office one isn't even at the behest of a private organization.

                  Of course, it's easy to be a keyboard warrior – loud in denunciation – much harder to shift our personal practice away from the (undeniable fact) that these options are also more convenient to us, most of the time.

        • mikesh 4.1.1.2
          11 September 2024 at 1:09 pm

          I don't think the Luddites had anything against automation as such; it was the loss of jobs and therefor incomes that was problematic. Perhaps it is time societies moved away from an economic system in which jobs are the only source of income. Is it time to introduce a UBI, or negative income tax.

          • AB 4.1.1.2.1
            11 September 2024 at 3:30 pm

            Yes. On the Luddites:

            "Highly trained individuals whose careers were destroyed by technological progress. This progress was treated as inevitable and uncontrollable. The Luddites therefore occupied the only remaining intellectual position, which consisted of rejecting technological progress". (John Ralston Saul, The Doubters Companion, 1995. p.195)

            Technology, like the principle of efficiency, has to serve some pre-existing social goal. They can't be left to run free.

            • Belladonna 4.1.1.2.1.1
              12 September 2024 at 10:46 am

              The pre-existing social goal of making materials more affordable to more people?

              The Luddites wanted to retain their 'artisan' model (which had economic benefits to them), over the technological innovations which resulted in more affordable products to many more people.

              Were the resulting textiles lower quality than those produced by the artisans? Almost certainly yes, (at least in the short term). Was the difference in quality enough to make them unusable. Certainly not.
              Was the difference in price sufficient to make the (admittedly lower quality) textiles available to a much wider section of the population. Again, yes.

              Did the manufacturers make more money. Again yes. Higher volumes of production, at lower prices – resulted in increased sales volumes and revenue (less money for each piece, but less cost to produce, and a lot more sales).

  5. koina 5
    11 September 2024 at 10:25 am

    The biggest problem is accomodation costs.

    House prices average a million dollars in Auckland rents average $750 a week.

    In todays world you need 100k before tax per year just to scrape by.

    That is if you are single.

    A family needs 150k p/a

    Until salaries catch up to the huge rise in housing costs post 2015

    this situation wont be solved by 10% salary claim by the lowest paid

  6. Patricia Bremner 6
    11 September 2024 at 10:51 am

    Belladonna, those who pull $200 cash out to pay for groceries. That is their allowance for food, and their way of controlling the spend. I know many people who shop with a calculator, and challenge the total if it does not match ticket prices.

    • Belladonna 6.1
      11 September 2024 at 10:53 am

      Seems unlikely. From the outside, it looks much more like under-the-table 'jobs for cash' people. Certainly the contents of the trolleys wouldn't support the 'make every cent count' narrative.

      • BK 6.1.1
        11 September 2024 at 12:10 pm

        So because someone pays in cash (Still a legitimate currency as far as I'm aware from the outside) and has nice food they surely must be working under the table? Awesome logic

        • Belladonna 6.1.1.1
          11 September 2024 at 12:40 pm

          Well, what inferences would you draw? It's very clearly not Patricia's inference of tight budgeting.

          If you are …. unaware … of the cash-under-the-table-to-avoid- taxes operations in NZ – then you must indeed live in a very privileged bubble.

          • BK 6.1.1.1.1
            11 September 2024 at 1:09 pm

            Well I certainly wouldn't jump to they must be doing cash jobs! Maybe they leave enough of their salary/ wage in their account to pay their bills, go to an ATM take out the rest and that's what the live on untill their next pay day?

            I'm also pretty sure we are all aware of the tax dodgers out there, they appear to be in the rich class, maybe they give their help some cash to do the shopping for them.

            • Belladonna 6.1.1.1.1.1
              11 September 2024 at 1:13 pm

              Maybe they do. Although that's just as big a jump in 'awesome logic' – with no supporting evidence.
              Do you know anyone (under the age of 65) who follows your suggested pathway?
              I don’t. Most people I know struggle to have any cash-in-hand at all (pay all bills and expenses online, all shopping is debit or credit card based). It comes up periodically when you need a random $5 for a street stall or a kids school event, and the number of people who can produce this, without prior notice – is very, very small.

              Most people don't pay cash for all transactions, if the bulk of their income is managed through the bank.

              • BK …
                11 September 2024 at 1:28 pm

                Yes Belladonna, you have stumbled on to my point, we can make any assumption with leaps in awesome logic 🙂

                • Belladonna …
                  12 September 2024 at 10:23 am

                  I'm guessing that the answer to my question is 'No'. You don't know anyone under 65 who routinely pays cash for purchases and transactions.

                  • Drowsy M. Kram …
                    12 September 2024 at 10:56 am

                    Another high quality reckon (guess) from the B. If I said I knew people under 65 who routinely paid in cash, would anyone believe me?

                    Of course, it's easy to be a keyboard warrior – loud in denunciation –

                    It’s not easy being ‘respectful centrist’ here, but you can do it – if you try.

                    • Belladonna …
                      12 September 2024 at 11:19 am

                      Well, do you know people under 65 who routinely carry cash for all purchases?

                      It's all-too easy to be a self-declared Marxist here, but you can rise above your conditioning — if you try.

                  • lprent …
                    12 September 2024 at 11:12 am

                    I am now 65 and I haven’t carried cash in NZ for at least 30 years.

                    I get cash as gifts or recompense from relatives or friends usually (max about $100). I occasionally get gift cards (the largest of those have been about $1k) from families or as recognition, I just pass those to my partner to deal with. She likes to ‘shop’. I seldom ‘shop’ except at a supermarket or online / pickup or deliver.

                    Nor do I physically go to a bank to stand in a queue or ATMs. I have been robbed at a ATM (pickpocket + obviously read my pin), so I don’t use them either.

                    My ‘wallet’ only contains cards and a single bill as a just in case. I check the home emergency cash stash about every five years mostly to make sure the currency is still valid.

                    Why would anyone carry cash in NZ? If I have to use cash, then I go somewhere else (carwash places being the obvious pain in the arse).

                    Offshore I usually carry some local cash. The systems are often not as good or as reliable as they are here.

                    • Belladonna …
                      12 September 2024 at 11:17 am

                      I agree. Most people don't.

                      However, there appears to be a trenchant group on TS, who believe this is a common and routine activity, not worthy of comment or suspicion.

                  • Drowsy M. Kram …
                    12 September 2024 at 11:50 am

                    I'm guessing that the answer to my question is 'No'. You don't know anyone under 65 who routinely pays cash for purchases and transactions.

                    Well, do you know people under 65 who routinely carry cash for all purchases?

                    No – but that wasn't your original supposition – bad faith B, bad faith.

                    I do, however, know people under 65 who routinely carry cash, and who use that cash to make purchases/payments – why on earth not?

                    • Belladonna …
                      12 September 2024 at 12:03 pm

                      And the reasons that they do this, are?
                      My suppositions were (since you seem to need a refresher)

                      People spending large sums of cash ($200+) at the supermarket are:

                      • Struggling with technology in self-check options (typically over 65)
                      • Needing the face-to-face contact (again, typically over 65)
                      • Strict budgeting
                      • Under-the-table cash being spent.

                      Note: none of the first three categories fit the people I'm seeing spending large sums in cash at the supermarket. Demonstrably not over 65, and the contents of the trolleys don’t demonstrate adherence to a strict budget.

                      I guess we could also add the tinfoil hat brigade (big brother is watching you), and the preppers – but I don't tend to see many of either in my inner-suburb supermarkets.

                      Which category do the people you know fit in?

                      Or do you have some other categories to add?

                      Are you actually interested in the topic – or just find it a useful vehicle to continue your constant chipping at me?

                      I find that your responses to me usually lack any form of contribution to the debate, and are simply personal attacks.

                  • Drowsy M. Kram …
                    12 September 2024 at 12:04 pm

                    It's all-too easy to be a self-declared Marxist here…

                    All too easy for who?

                    "Self-declared Marxist" – what are you on about? "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" just appeals to me, as a human being.

                    … but you can rise above your conditioning –

                    I don't (need to) use conditioner – respect wink

                    I find that your responses to me usually lack any form of contribution to the debate, and are simply personal attacks.

                    Sorry that you feel the link to the RBNZ cash use survey wasn’t a useful contribution, but it seems to me that you’re tying yourself in knots over this. It’s knot a matter of ‘win or lose’ – we just have different perspectives is all.

          • Visubversa 6.1.1.1.2
            11 September 2024 at 9:36 pm

            There ae lots of reasons for using cash for shopping. I use cash to buy the groceries every so often. It is because my partner – who is a bit older than me – still works on a cash economy. She has a bank card – but that is about it. She does not do online banking. I pay for several subscriptions for her through my accounts, and every so often she goes to the cash machine and gets out $$$$ to repay me. Rather than go to the bank and deposit it – I use it for the next week's food supplies.

            • Belladonna 6.1.1.1.2.1
              12 September 2024 at 10:22 am

              I'm guessing that your partner is over 65.
              Not the case for the people I'm seeing doing this.

      • Cricklewood 6.1.2
        11 September 2024 at 5:00 pm

        Its also a way of controlling the appearance on your bank statement of your weekly supermarket or entertaient spend when wanting to apply for a mortgage.

        Basically the idea is spend a few months withdrawing a saving cash or buying prezzie cards then spend the next three months prior to making an application making your expenses look lower by using the cash you saved.

        Makes it much easier to get a mortgage when they were going through everything with a fine tooth comb.

      • Cinder 6.1.3
        11 September 2024 at 6:47 pm

        Elderly parent gives you cash as a present and tells you to spend it on something nice.

        Good foods I can't typically afford you think to yourself.

        Belladonna bursts into the room "What's going on here? This looks dodgy as f@$k!. I better call the IRD."

        I don't know about anybody else, but my elderly parent usually gives me cash and underwear on my birthday and at Xmas. I usually spend the $ on flash pantry items that will last.

        And Belladonna. In other scenarios it is called "Cash budgeting" and we used to train people to use it Auckland Action Against Poverty 15 years ago for the following reasons:

        Firstly, yes they do have AP's for rent and some other payments and also into savings accounts (if they have any $ left over, which was almost never).

        If they take all their disposable income out in one go it is much easier to manage as it is right there in front of them. At the time it also allowed you to avoid multiple transaction fees (now gone).

        For people with poor numeracy & literacy, people who may have English as a second language, those may have a visual, neurological or other disability, this approach to budgeting can work very well.

        Many of our clients were also data poor or were not IT literate so constantly checking their accounts etc… wasn't always an option. Knowing exactly how much you have left until the next pay day simply by looking in your pocket was invaluable.

        It also allows you to get in the habit of leaving the house without your ATM / debit card which dampens impulse spending.

        Having been caught in natural disasters and blackouts, and also experiencing my phone bricking and ATM machines swallowing my card and switching off, I always carry some cash.

        Can I ask how many other Standardista's are curtain twitching at peoples shopping?

        • Belladonna 6.1.3.1
          12 September 2024 at 10:30 am

          Really Sunshine – I've better things to do that curtain twitching – I'll leave that to you.

          The point I was making is that people who are choosing to pay in cash, will also be using the checkout operators (by default – no self-check option).

          I find it noteworthy to see so many paying in cash for shopping trolleys full of items: when the person is not over 65 (not comfortable with technology, or wanting social interaction); and/or very clearly not buying low-budget items (the other reasonable budget-management explanation).

          Again, if you are unaware of the under-the-table cash-for-jobs economy … you clearly also live a very sheltered life.

          The fact that you 'carry some cash' doesn't mean that you routinely pay for your $200+ grocery bill at the supermarket in cash.

          • Drowsy M. Kram 6.1.3.1.1
            12 September 2024 at 11:18 am

            You love “Sunshine” too? Fantastic – we sun-worshippers must stick together.

            Survey respondents using cash for everyday purposes was 57.2% in 2023
            https://www.rbnz.govt.nz/-/media/project/sites/rbnz/files/notes-and-coins/future-of-cash/2023-cash-use-survey-summary-report.pdf

            Well well well – another reckon, this time from the RBNZ smiley

            Question: Not as many people are using cash to pay for everyday things as before. Even if you are not a cash user, which one of the following best describes how you feel about this?
            Key finding:
            In 2023, almost half (49.3%) reported they felt very concerned (17.5%) or somewhat concerned (31.8%) about fewer people using cash. This continues a trend of increasing concern which started in 2019.

            To be fair, “over 65” is a growing demographic – along with a few others.

          • Cinder 6.1.3.1.2
            12 September 2024 at 8:17 pm

            Yes! Really! Buddy!

            You started off with anecdotes about curtain twitching over grocery shopping. And now it seems you do it on the regular. Projection or making shit up?

            You do realise anecdotes are not evidence right?

            How many times do you go to this supermarket of illicit transactions in a week? Which city and shop is this? Was it Moore Wilsons? It was wasn't it? How long are you spending in a queue to observe so many tax dodging transactions? I mean, do you purposefully pick the longest, slowest queue so you can watch? Do you like watching? Does the Stasi aspect of it all give you a little thrill? Give us numbers Belladonna, some actual quantitative data to work with, go on…

            And yes, select self service checkouts do take cash. They are signposted.

            Anyhoo…

            You have set your own parameters for can "legitimately use cash to buy product X in manner Y" so there is actually no point in going down this road with you as you are inflexible in those parameters. What was that about poor quality debate?

            Sheltered life? You're the one engaging in ableism matey blokey. You can't even acknowledge what I said above. They’re not even in your list of parameters. A lot of disabilities are invisible and there are many people under 65 who are not IT literate or simply data poor.

            But then, you have made your judgement about people being tax dodgers based purely of appearance so this shouldn't be surprising.

            And, Yes I have heard of cashies.

            Have you heard of the internet phrase "Your ass is hanging out"?

  7. tWig 7
    11 September 2024 at 11:59 am

    NZTA told to toll new Manawatu-Wairarapa crossing. The obverse outcome of 'tax cuts'.

    Asking for submissions now. The issue with this is that it is the only road that crosses the ranges for at least 80 km on each side. Toll roads must have non-toll options nearby that still supply the same transport.

    If it is tolled, then trucks need to be tolled at a charge rate that reflects the much greater damage they do to the road.

    This NZTA doc from Jan 2022 (Labour) discusses setting Road User Charges dependent on the actual costs of each vehicle type.

    • Georgecom 7.1
      11 September 2024 at 6:01 pm

      The road build started a few years ago and presumably funded/budgeted for from fuel taxes/RUCs. Suddenly change of govt and its going to be tolled. I have been pointing this out to a few people and suggesting they join the dots between an out of control minister of transport who wants to build crazily expensive highways in auckland and north and the billions of $$$ he needs to find to pay for it. Might not be too much to suggest manawatu drivers are to be milked to pay for Simeons silly road obsession.

  8. tWig 8
    11 September 2024 at 12:10 pm

    Big hairy news discuss the Treaty draft Bill, and Seymour's hidden agenda. in Pat and Chewie do a good rip apart of Seymour's more egregious statements.

    Chewie does a great takedown about 1.05 h in, if you want a quick summary of the discussion.

  9. gsays 9
    11 September 2024 at 12:16 pm

    While I agree with getting trucks to pay their way, I'm not sure where you get the 80km figure from.

    The Pahiatua Track @ Aokautere is 14 km away and the Ashhurst end of the Saddle Road would only be 5kms from the western end of Te Ahu a Turanga.
    One crosses the Tararua ranges and the other the Ruahine ranges.

  10. Bearded Git 10
    11 September 2024 at 1:42 pm

    I've said it before and I'll say it again. The closure of the two Winstone Pulp mills has almost NOTHING to do with power prices.

    In a company such as this…remembering that there are hundreds of employees….power costs would be a small part of overall costs…probably less than 10 per cent.

    Even if power prices have on average gone up 20 per cent this year (the major price spikes tend to be very short term) this would mean that power price increases have added TWO PER CENT to the operating costs.

    The real reason is now emerging why they are closing …it is the fall in price of wood pulp.

    The MSM needs to stop quoting "the mills closed due to rocketing power prices" bollocks. This meme seems to be all about helping Simeon Brown justify his ridiculous LNG import proposal.

    • Mike the Lefty 10.2
      11 September 2024 at 6:06 pm

      I tend to agree with you BG.

      The surging power prices are part of it, to be sure, but I get the image of the Winstone execs sitting around a table saying to each other: hell we're not making the kind of dough we want here, we'll tell them the only way we'll stay is if they pay US to stay, like they did with Rio Tinto in Bluff.

      They won't?

      Well goodbye, and thanks for all the fish!

      But on the other hand, I don't think the National led government tried too hard to keep them here either.

      The loss of a few hundred jobs is nothing to National, except perhaps if it comes a couple of months before an election.

  11. Ad 11
    11 September 2024 at 2:39 pm

    Kamala just wiped the floor with Trump.

    And real clear putting the case for her candidacy to the Undecideds and waverers.

  12. Kay 12
    11 September 2024 at 3:01 pm

    That was a masterclass in malignant narcissism.

  13. tsmithfield 13
    11 September 2024 at 3:02 pm

    I saw most of the debate. I thought Harris clearly won. Trump was sounding quite unhinged through a lot of it.

    • lprent 13.1
      11 September 2024 at 3:09 pm

      Yeah. We agree on something again. Trump kept teetering off incoherently into grievance mode.

      Don’t think that Harris did a great job of presenting herself but it was competent. But she did a very masterclass job at getting Trump to reveal his ‘malignant narcissism’ (as Kay put it).

      • tsmithfield 13.1.1
        11 September 2024 at 3:38 pm

        Claims that illegal immigrants are eating family pets was typical of the sort of nuttiness that personifies Trump.

        If I was an American voter, I would be rolling my eyes and thinking "please, not another four years of this."

      • Belladonna 13.1.2
        12 September 2024 at 11:27 am

        Have to admit to not watching the debate. But all reports seem to agree that, while Harris was not outstanding, she outclassed Trump and effectively baited him into explosions of rage.

        However, the issue is not whether she 'won' in NZ (we don't get a vote), or even in the Democratic heartland of the US, but whether she persuaded enough of the uncommitted voters to either switch votes, or (if Democrat) get off the couch to turn out and vote for her.

        Guess we'll see in November.

        • lprent 13.1.2.1
          12 September 2024 at 12:04 pm

          I have been discussing this with my partner who tends to concentrate on the ‘youth’ vote and the votes focused about the reproductive rights decisons (ie abortion, contraception and IVF).

          Mostly what I am interested in (and probably what the Harris campaign was targeting) is the ‘independent’ vote. These are voters who will routinely vote but don’t register in primaries for either party. They tend to congregate (ie register) in what are electoral college swing states. They are also very susceptible to the arguments about age of candidates. Also usually don’t poll very well because they often won’t answer pollsters. They’re the most reliable swing voters and tend to be the deciders of elections when turnouts are lowish. Just like they are here.

          They were the group that Trump largely lost between the 2016 and 2020 elections. Losing that group that lost him the election both in the popular vote and in the electoral college despite the gains he made in the MAGA base.

          For them the choice will be between economic issues, social issues, and chaos issues.I think that that the Harris campaign wanted their candidate to not piss that group off which I think that she succeeded in. But mostly to let them see Donald Trump in his malicious narcissist with grievances mode yet again, even as muted as he was trying to be.

          Normally you’d have to go and watch one of the turgid campaign stops to see those grievance episodes at length. I have watched a few over the years and they are incredibly boring if you aren’t just interested in a parrot repeating catchphrases. The head-on-head debates are pretty damn effective at letting that appear.

          Harris do a good job at it. I think that Trump won’t have picked up any independent votes.

          What is interesting is that the debate leaves Trump highly vulnerable to any increase in youth (influenced by Taylor Swift and others) or reproductive rights turnout.

          • Belladonna 13.1.2.1.1
            12 September 2024 at 12:14 pm

            Agree that it's the independent voters who decide elections. And, particularly for the Democrats, getting their voters to actually vote. Republicans seem to be better at turnout.

            And, of course, the State based approach makes a big difference. It doesn't matter if Harris wins California by 55% or 90% – it's the same number of electoral college votes. So converting independents in States she's already going to win, is a fairly pointless exercise. It absolutely makes sense for her to concentrate on Intependent votes in swing states. [NB: a friend was telling me that there were no Harris election material in her (overwhelmingly Democrat) area – but her husband had seen a lot where he works (more of a swing State)]

            Economic and social issues are very strong factors, I think, in the US ATM. At least that's what I'm hearing from friends there. Stronger in the areas which are not Democrat strongholds. I don't know, at this stage, if voters will hold their noses and vote for Trump (because they like his policies) or hold their noses and vote for Harris (because they like her).

  14. Sanctuary 14
    11 September 2024 at 3:45 pm

    Stop press – Taylor Swift has come off the ropes and it's now it's surely all over for Trump.

    In a highly polarised America where a hyper-partisan media has ensured a good 40% of the population is now completely detached from objective reality the odds of this debate moving the dial much if at all is quite small.

    • Ad 14.1
      11 September 2024 at 6:06 pm

      Yes that's a youthquake that one.

      What we need now is a joint Kamala-Taylor stage appearance.

    • Binders full of women 14.2
      11 September 2024 at 7:36 pm

      And I heard on HDPA that Swift signed off "and I'm a childless cat 🐈 😻 woman"

    • Belladonna 14.3
      12 September 2024 at 11:38 am

      While you may well be right – and Swift does have that level of impact on the election.

      From a democratic standpoint, I'm appalled that any entertainer has the ability to sway an election, in any country, one way or the other.
      Doesn’t say much about the intelligence level of the electorate.

      • Drowsy M. Kram 14.3.1
        12 September 2024 at 6:37 pm

        Understanding Reagan in the Era of Trump
        Never the smartest guys in the room, the two entertainers turned presidents drastically changed the Republican Party. Do the similarities stop there?

        From a democratic standpoint, I'm appalled that any entertainer has the ability to sway an election, in any country, one way or the other.

        Agreed, most regrettable, but it is what it is – "Are You Not Entertained?"

        Hulk Hogan rips off his shirt, endorses Trump at the RNC [19 July 2024]

        Musk’s full-throated backing of Trump is uncharted territory for a tech boss [19 July 2024]
        X CEO’s support for Trump is a break from the role that major social media heads have played in US politics
        …
        “I could have said ‘drop to your knees and beg,’ and he [Musk] would have done it,” Trump wrote.

        Closer to home, a 'donation loophole' in our democracy may be cause for concern.

        The political newcomers spending thousands to influence the election
        [11 Oct 2023]
        Political parties need to disclose where large donations come from; groups like Vote for Better and S.B. Group don't.

        Victoria University of Wellington senior research fellow Max Rashbrooke said this represents a loophole in our system. "There is the potential, increasingly in the future for a large amount of dark money, essentially to be pushed in to attack ads and campaigns that are obviously aimed at swaying the election in a certain direction."

        Remember the well-funded anti-MMP campaign in the lead-up to the 1993 General Election and FPP vs MMP referendum.

        The election campaign is overshadowed by the referendum on changing the voting system from First-Past-the-Post to the Mixed Member Proportional (MMP) system. A well-funded anti-MMP group, the Campaign for Better Government, spends $500,000 on TV adverts in the last week of the campaign; pro-MMP campaigners even accuse them of inserting subliminal messages. But MMP is endorsed by 54% to 46%.

        https://nzhistory.govt.nz/culture/tv-history/elections

        Might be interesting to know the sources/quantities of money deployed in various campaigns to retain/abolish Māori wards – I'd welcome a retrospective analysis.

        • Belladonna 14.3.1.1
          13 September 2024 at 10:12 am

          Might be interesting to know the sources/quantities of money deployed in various campaigns to retain/abolish Māori wards – I'd welcome a retrospective analysis.

          Perhaps you should undertake one.

          • Drowsy M. Kram 14.3.1.1.1
            13 September 2024 at 12:14 pm

            Perhaps you should undertake one.

            Thanks B – appreciate your words of encouragement.

            I would certainly welcome an analysis of the sources/quantities of money deployed in various campaigns to retain/abolish Māori wards, but will likely lack the time, and certainly (as a retired scientist) the skills to unearth the information and present it in an easy-to-digest form.

            A job for one of our investigative journalist, I reckon – perhaps Nicky Hagar.

            NAct Magpies (with apologies to Denis Glover, who would understand)

            When John and Joyce took their seats
            the public’s assets bled
            and Trust me TPP I’m not a U.S. lackey
            The keywee said

            John’s minders dug their dirt
            and Judith’s ethics fled
            and Trust me Smith Dunn Williamson Wong Banksie
            The keywee said

            Year in year out they schemed
            while poverty grew overhead
            and Trust me Brownlee with airport security
            The keywee said

            Let’s mine and sell this lovely land
            Clean rivers won’t keep us fed
            and Trust me johnkey to oversee the GCSB
            The keywee said

            Judith is gone now (yet risen again)
            Ol'             Banksie’s gone light in the head
            and Trust me johnkey trust me cuppa tea?
            The keywee said

            The Govt’s still there, and Hollow Men
            still hold sway
            and Trust me the truth’s just a left-wing conspiracy
            The keywees say.

          • Drowsy M. Kram 14.3.1.1.2
            13 September 2024 at 12:50 pm

            Oops – Hager.

      • Muttonbird 14.3.2
        12 September 2024 at 6:54 pm

        How sweet.

        Q: Is democracy not working in your favour because of young people?

        A: Yes, and I shall now have a tantrum about it.

        • Belladonna 14.3.2.1
          13 September 2024 at 10:10 am

          How sweet.

          Q: Are peoples votes being swayed by entertainers?

          A: Yes. And I shall be pleased about it this time, because the entertainer agrees with my political prejudices. But next time, I shall have a tantrum about it, because I disagree with the entertainer.

          Just occasionally, it might be good for you to expand your mind and think about the possible consequences of actions.

          • Muttonbird 14.3.2.1.1
            13 September 2024 at 7:02 pm

            Consequences of what actions? Taylor Swift endorsed Kamala Harris. Big deal, that's the liberal left exercising their right to engage in politics. Taylor Swift has a huge reach and could be a potent weapon for the Harris campaign.

            If you were honest with yourself for once, a real challenge for centrists I know, you would recognise entertainers are largely of the liberal left and a force against the untold wealthy and business financial backing of the politically conservative right.

            Having high profile entertainers back the left is democracy, and it's our competitive advantage. No surprise you don't like it.

      • weka 14.3.3
        12 September 2024 at 11:26 pm

        Doesn’t say much about the intelligence level of the electorate.

        What if her influence is simply getting out the vote?

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