Open mike 11/10/2019
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7:00 am, October 11th, 2019 - 87 comments
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For those with a technical/engineering bent, here's a good piece from Vox about the climate problem from industrial process heat.
https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2019/10/10/20904213/climate-change-steel-cement-industrial-heat-hydrogen-ccs
It could have been better, though. It didn't even mention what effects a price on carbon would have in its cost comparisons, nor did it even mention the possibilities of completely changing some industrial processes such as electrolytic steelmaking or electrochemical cement production.
Electrolytic Steel ?
"until the product is actually built and tested at commercial scale, it’s too early to say how well or affordably it will really work. "
Electrochemical Cement ?
"‘A modern cement plant typically produces 10,000 tonnes of cement per day – it is very difficult to imagine this scale of production by electrolysis.’
There would be telephone books ( remember them) worth of research papers produced that dont go any further than saying , yes we can do it when we make 0.5kg in the lab
Just about every part of modern society had its origins in small scale lab experiments. The stuff that got commercialised on a massive scale was where there was a big commercial incentive to do so.
In the case of cement or steel, that commercial incentive will come from a carbon price or heavy-handed government restriction on burning fossil fuels. But right now, when fossil fuel burners get to dump their hazardous waste in the atmosphere for free and the rest of the world has to deal with the damage it causes, there's no commercial incentive to further develop alternatives.
John Key's 'you'll just have to wait and see'..regarding who bought his Parnell hacienda,leaves me to believe( as no title transfer of sale has occurred )that maybe the buyer is a foreigner and not eligible under new laws.
If that is the case ,I'm sure some creative solution will be found.
Wouldn't you say it could be another cosy related party like the buyer of his beach house? Who else owes him a favour for services rendered?
And the buyer is…………. Christopher Luxon when he parachutes into the electorate after selection. The much photographed pool will provide quite a media splash.
Thats because Keys house was originally in a Family Trusts name. he and his family are the beneficiaries.
Whats happened is the Trust still exists but has new beneficiaries which arent listed on the title, just the Trustees
Sen. Paul neatly skewers the pro-war left over Syria pullout.
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/washington-secrets/rand-paul-compares-trump-syria-withdrawal-to-reagans-beirut-pullout
Using a hard right republican tea bagger to justify the extermination of the Kurdish people. How very left wing of you.
i was surprised to see paul cited here..but part of his and his fathers' politics is pulling american troops out of whatever…so despite his other r/w beliefs there is some consistancy there..
the takeaway/surprise for me was the small number of troops involved (50-100..)
so the significant aspect of this isn't so much the troop withdrawal itself..
but the conversation trump had with erdogan..where we are told he basically handed over the isis-problem to erdogan..
giving him the green light to do whatever..
something else to consider is that turkey currently has three and a half million refugees from this conflict in their country..
and turkey won’t want to ‘exterminate’ the kurds – historically the kurds have been a buffer-zone between turkey and the middle-east..
and in different times/wars the kurds have fought alongside the turks..
so i am guessing erdogan wants control back of that area – so he can send back the kurds he has not ‘exterminated’ – who are in turkey as refugees..
these fings are often quite nuanced..
(and i see allen delivered an ill-thought-out/simplistic-sneer – it must be a day ending in a 'y'..)
There's never anything Ill thought out from me, Philip, though cant argue with simplistic – One has to play to the level of the audience after all just like last night, when you were shepherded into ducking a simple question.
Still, it is odd how some left wingers choose to quote or cite rabid righties in order to attack others on the left. Thats a very confused position for sure.
maybe some people are actually seeking illumination..
preferring that over doctrinaire-posturing..?
@ Al1en " There's never anything Ill thought out from me, "..thanks for that I needed that little mid morning chuckle.
I would have thought an anti-war stance is one of the few areas where libertarianism coaligns with true leftist position
Disagreements aplenty in other areas
Your kind of simplistic tribal thinking does no one any good
Nothing in the posts I made above, about a presumed lefty attacking the falsely alleged "pro war left" by way off a right wing tea party has changed with your comment.
no surprises there…
allen puts the 'id' in '- – – -id'..
Your ad homs are getting worse, Phil. Up your game, if you can..
I can't get an ad hom out of – – – – id – is it 3 or 4 letters before the id? I thought 3 and vap id would be a tidy double hitter
close..!..but no chocolate-fish..
i was working with four letters..
When you two have finished patting each other on the back maybe you could drop the infantile attempts to wind up another commenter here? Yes? It is getting bloody tedious to have to listen to same old broken record time after time. If you cannot take a joke, maybe you take a hint? Yes?
heh..!
how in earth is 'pitting the 'id' in '- – – – id'.. an ad hom..?
what am i saying there..?
i cd also note that since my return here – allen has been this malevolent shadow – responding to anything i said with 'ad homs'…
and/but nary a murmer from you on that..eh..?
to the extent i had to police him/her by telling him/her i wd not respond to ad homs..
and 'if you can'..eh..?
a bit of putting the old 'id' in '- – id -' there..eh..?
heh..!
Thanks for proving id..
Not moderated, not told off, not warned nor banned.
Im guessing it's because I know how to play this better than you, Philip. I don't need to insult you to shred your arguments, and I don't have to worry about getting booted when I do so. It's the best of both worlds.
@ incognito..
are you doing yr punning thing again..?
some people asked me to ask you to 'please just stop it'..
(they seemed quite distressed by the/yr practice..)
Get your id under control and get over your issues with The Al1en.
If you can (asking for a friend)?
Happy to leave you to it .. then..!..
Who is this "allen" you're trying to insult?
'who'?..indeed…!
i have asked myself that question..
Andre, Philip has this thing he copied from Marty years ago, where he can't bring himself to use my chosen login when addressing me, and he's done it for so long, if he ever changed it would be viewed as a sign of defeat. It's like a wee willy wave on permanent Viagra. Lol
Its only him and the greywarshark, the Nelson nibbler who do it today, and as much as every time I see it its like a +1 to my score before I've even started, it's all a bit silly seeing as my name is Dan
I thought it was quite genius at the time because it upset you so much – lol those were the days…
It really didn't, but it's one of those things if you deny, people will claim the opposite. I still see it as admitting defeat up front, and I'm glad you at least managed to get over it and a hold of your sh1t, 'cause it don't half make these clowns look broken up when they do it.
yes we moved on which was nice
Yep. Still got a pint with your name on it when I switch islands.
Yep looking forward to it
Oddly enough, the Kurds are not experiencing the Turkish invasion as an antiwar moment.
agreed..and great to see such concern..
but it pays not to forget that since obama america has been droning/bombing/shelling/killing this whole region..
in their latest proxy war..
why do you think those 3.5 million refugees are in turkey..?
for the weather..?
so i do find yr concerns to be somewhat selective..
That would be because you haven't done your homework on Putin. No-one on the Left who wants to talk about peace can do so while blindly following the totalitarian responsible for the Chechen genocide. Exchanging US hegemony for kleptocrat hegemony is not a victory, though it may take the Putin hero worshippers thirty years to work that out.
who are these 'putin-worshippers' of whom you speak..?
are you speaking to me..?..munro-man..?
Nope – I'm not certain of your stance.
Yeah exactly Mr Munro, "who are these 'putin-worshippers' of whom you speak..?", how about you point them out for us?
You for one, tragically.
@ Stuart Munro.
And when exactly have I said or done anything like that, that would give you that idea?
Actually, why don't you go and find one comment on the Standard or anywhere on the net for that matter, (I use my real name) where I have shown myself to be a " Putin hero worshipper"….I can tell you right now you won't, so that leaves me with only one thing to say the the likes of you……flick you,melonfarmer.
"Let Lynn know what?, that his site is full of aggressive Russiagate conspiratory theorists I hope…"
Yesterday.
There is ample evidence on the record of the Russia/Trump connection, but you won't entertain it for some reason.
Look you fool, just becuase someone dosn't buy into the ridiculous Russiagate conspiracy/smokescreen, does not mean they have any love for Putin…your problem is that you and many like you seem to instantly assume that any enemy of Trump is all of a sudden a friend of your's ..wrong..very very wrong.
Holy shit you people are so gullible you even believe that the FBI and CIA are suddenly on your side now…FFS I have even seen your Trump/Russia hating loonies in the Liberal press now giving Bolton a free pass as long as he is attacking Trump…Bolton, yes I said Bolton..that's how far down the rabbit hole you guys (and girls) have gone…yet you lot won't or can't even seem to see that?
But I can guarantee you one thing for sure, that the people who will be looking back on this whole sad episode in the future in embarrassment and shame at the so called 'friends' they touted, qouted and defended won't be me or Bill or morrissey or Shiobhan, phillip ure, francesca etc, no it will be you and your super gullible friends..but now that I think about it you probably won't be embarrassed or ashamed at the damage you are doing to the Left, or yourself for that matter..and it's a shame.(but I really do hope that one day at least some of you will wake up and come back to the light)..good night.
You ignore the plain evidence in front of you for specious reasons.
It's fools like you that render the west vulnerable in this new cold war.
And then you have the incredible arrogance to pretend to be Left. The 'old reds' who naively supported Stalin were both more sincere and more realistic than you.
Putin is Right, authoritarian, corrupt, invades, and slaughters journalists. You cannot square that with pretentions to Left or progressive values.
I am ashamed of you, and when you grow up, you will be ashamed of yourself.
Man you are really one paranoid individual, they really got you good pal…like some sort of crazy old demented cold war warrior..well your old sexually perverted boss Hoover would be proud of you…
https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/11/19/article-2063491-0EDBBFF300000578-188_306x423.jpg
There is nothing anti-war about enabling an attack by Turkey on the SDF (who only resisted IS a secret Turkish ally) and displacing Kurds from their homes in northern Syria.
There are no Kurds in Turkey as refugees.
But there will be in Syria when Turkey occupies northen Syria and displaces the Kurds living there.
You'll be stoked that Meghan McCain agrees with you then Allen…
https://thehill.com/homenews/media/465227-meghan-mccain-rips-trump-rand-paul-blood-on-their-hands-while-kurds-are
Probably not near as much you are having the arche duke of neoliberalism to make your attack on lefties for you.
slight ideological-labelling correction here –
like his father before him – paul is a libertariam..not a neoliberal..
So Clark is definitely a neo lib but you're wanting to get picky over what to label a full on conservative tea bagger? Lol
what exactly don't you get about 'libertarian'..?
and yes..clark is/was a neoliberal-incrementalist..
she came from a tory family – and despite having the labour party as her vehicle to power..didn’t stray far from those roots..
her record in office underlines/confirms that..
what don't you get about that..?
and clark is in part the cause of any reticence i have about warren..in that she also comes from a ‘tory’ background – the republican party..
prob-ly just unfounded paranoia on my part..but still a niggle..
Paul is a conservative republican, wants low taxes, reductions in spending, anti abortion, doesn't support lgbti rights and detests socialism, social democracy and the left.
If you want to champion him and his opinions, go right ahead.
I have read of RP described as Neo lib, but besides you predictably nit picking over a label, isn't anyone to the right of Sanders supposed to be a neo lib anyway?
As for your concerns about Warren- Are these new?
paul self-describes as a libertarian-consevative..
which is very different from neoliberal – that wd be like equating paul with h. clark..silly..!
scandanavian countries are democratic-socialist – higher taxes – strong social support..
clark/nz – aust – britain (where the poorest are left to rot..) are neoliberal..
we here in nz need to move from neoliberal into democratic-socialist..
(hope that helps clarify that for you..)
Uhh, scandinavian countries are social democracies, not democratic socialists. Those scandies are still firmly based on capitalism, ie private ownership of the means of production, rather than the socialist principle of collective ownership of the means of production.
Here's an explainer for you:
https://jacobinmag.com/2018/08/democratic-socialism-social-democracy-nordic-countries
Heh, 'I thought we were the popular people's front of Judea'…
they are utter bastards – the popular peoples' front of judea…
The US is not "exterminating the Kurdish people". If one must put blame somewhere, then blame Turkey.
Thanks to Trump abandoning them to their fate, sure.
They have options
"But the constitution committee is Putin’s brainchild and he will not wish to see it threatened by fighting in north-east Syria. Instead he will see if the Turkish invasion is a chance to engineer an unlikely reconciliation between the Kurds and the Syrian regime.
Some Syrian Kurds, watching the accumulating signs that Trump would leave them in the lurch, have argued that their future security lies in coming to some form of reconciliation with Damascus based on a federal Syria. The commander of the mainly Kurdish Syrian Democratic Forces, Mazlum Kobane, said in the past week: “We are considering a partnership with Syrian president Bashar al-Assad, with the aim of fighting Turkish forces.”
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/oct/10/russia-and-iran-reaction-to-syria-assault-likely-to-most-concern-erdogan-turkey
Sophies choice due to the u.s ditching the kurds
Gee, the presence of American military personnel in the area was the one thing actually preventing war in that specific area. As evidenced by how quickly war started up after it was made clear they wouldn't actually do anything to protect a vulnerable minority people if they were attacked. How could the self-styled "anti-war" delusionals have missed that little nuance?
As for Rand Paul, he's not anti-war. His bag is that the rich and powerful get to do what they want, and they richer and more powerful someone is, the more they get to do whatever the fuck pleases them. So if an authoritarian dictator, the epitome of unrestrained wealth and power, gets a hankering for a bit of genocide, all good as far as Rand Paul is concerned. The idea that the US should feel any need to act on any kind of moral consideration such as the UN “responsibility to protect” doctrine, is abhorrent to him, but the idea that there might be some actual cost to him in the way of taxes to pay for that protection of a vulnerable people is absolute anathema.
Goodness me those yankee soldiers really are titans eh?
50 of them kept the slavering masses at bay
And as for "the reponsibility to protect goes"I have yet to see a situation that was improved by sending in the troops
The Gadaffi exercise was later found to be a total fraud by the UK parliamentary committee that provided a report on the Libya intervention
Depleted uranium was used in the bombing of Serbia that went on for 78 days non stop
The incidence of cancer is the highest in Europe. Real humanitarian stuff there.
Yeah, I s'pose you could see it that way. If you're an enthusiast of authoritarian dictators fucking over the ordinary people that have the misfortune to be within that dictator's area of influence, that is.
Here we go Andre , see what your heroes did in Iraq…for the very best of reasons of course protecting Kuwait and ridding the world of a dictator in 2003
The Iraqis have thrived under US good intentions?
https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2013/03/2013315171951838638.html
fancy birth defects more than cancer
https://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/insidestoryamericas/2012/08/2012815458859755.html
R2P is nothing but a crock, a fig leaf for death and destruction and regime change.
You good old boys sure love the military
Your claim was about Serbia. How about backing up your actual claim, instead of diverting.
None of the lies used to try to justify the Iraq war even tried to invoke responsibility to protect. They couldn't have, both Iraq wars predate the adoption of the responsibility to protect doctrine. In any case, the motivation for military action in Iraq (both times) was punitive and/or control of oil, unlike the Balkans which was about protecting civilian populations.
When it comes to depleted uranium munitions, the only number I've seen comes from RT which says 10 to 15 tons of depleted uranium munitions were used in total. There's probably more uranium than that spread around very finely every year in fertiliser.
Whereas in the two Iraq wars, thousands of tons of DU munitions were used, including in civilian areas. So while there are indeed recognised harmful effects attributed to DU munitions among US military and Iraqis from both Iraq wars, they also experienced massively higher exposure.
Nice diversions, though.
" unlike the Balkans which was about protecting civilian populations."
Like hell it was.
Read this ffs Andre
https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2016/08/17/destruction-yugoslavia-template-for-america-future-policy/
Incidentally Francesca is not offering a diversion but information which you may well take advantage of since you are only able to offer your 'reckons' on the subject which of course hold no weight.
Wayne Madsen, huh? Yet another one of the Alex Jones freak show cast?
All sorts of ..ahem … interesting stuff pops up when you google those two together.
edit: and that site he’s publishing on?
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/strategic-culture-foundation/
Is this what you'd describe as 'protecting civilian populations'?
"Three days after NATO began its war, workers and management issued an open letter which was sent to trade unions abroad and U.S. President Clinton, British Prime Minister Tony Blair, U.S. Secretary of State Madeleine Albright, and other Western leaders. "We, the employees of Zastava and freedom-loving Kragujevac, made a live shield," the statement proclaimed. "Even at the shift end, even at the alarm sound, the Zastava workers did not leave their workshops, but remained to protect with their bodies what provides for their families' living, that in which they have built in years-long honest work in order to provide for their better future."
Shortly after 1:00 AM on April 9, NATO responded to the workers' letter by sending a volley of cruise missile flying into Kragujevac."
https://www.sott.net/article/295315-Shameless-How-NATO-stole-Yugoslavias-prosperity-targeting-state-owned-and-worker-cooperative-factories
Y'know, the internet is full of sites and people making all kinds of weird and wonderful claims. I really can't be arsed checking out everything put up by someone who in all seriousness linked that Wayne Madsen piece above. Particularly since a brief search on Gregory Elich and SOTT gives me no confidence that either is in any way reliable or factual.
1: Turkey would be reluctant to kill US soldiers, even by accident, so yes their presence was indeed a political barrier to Turkey's operation;
2: 50 soldiers can talk to aircraft that are carrying a shitload of explosives overhead, so can be a very practical obstacle to turkey's operation. Refer to afghanistan, 2001, for further information.
3: what Andre said
Also; francesca, are you suggesting Serbia has an elevated cancer rate as a result of the military activities there? Or are you just throwing out a couple of unrelated dots and hoping readers make the connection?
If it's the first, linky-link please? Coz I googled "depleted uranium serbia cancer" and got screeds of the usual nonsense from the usual kook and crank sites.
Googling "serbia cancer rates" brought up sites like this one with actual data. Serbia's cancer rate was steadily increasing from 1991 to about 2009, when it levelled off and has started to slightly decrease. There was no apparent change in the trend in 1999 or the few years thereafter. Any assertion the 1999 war has increased cancer in Serbia appears unsupported by actual data.
Also notable is that Serbia is #25 on wikipedia's list of countries by cancer frequency with 269.7 new cases of cancer per year per 100,000 population. That's well below other nations such as NZ (295), US (318), Denmark (338) etc.
Here's some more of your good old fashioned humanitarianism,
https://apnews.com/c2de89e6e9b0c09320a67cbfdfabbf1e
All to wrench those democracy loving Kosovars from Serbia
https://www.politico.eu/article/kosovo-hashim-thaci-un-special-court-tribunal-organ-trafficking-kla-serbia-milosevic-serbia-ramush/
Your AP link relates to 1992 and 1993. That doesn't back up your claims about 1999. Nor do the outcomes of sanctions have anything to do with the outcomes of military activities motivated by the responsibility to protect doctrine. Which had its origins the Rwanda genocide of 1994.
Did you read your politico link? It's about efforts to reduce the corruption and cronyism that sadly still plague Kosovo. To try to give ordinary Kosovars some improvements in their lives. I expect any US contribution to those efforts has come to a halt under Generalissimo Bonespurs, making it more likely some nasty authoritarian dictator has a better chance to take over and fuck over ordinary Kosovars. Is that the outcome that would please you, francesca?
Nice diversions, though.
All of those wars were started on the principle/pretense of necessary intervention
None of them had benign effects
Killing other people is a solution that never turns out very good. Regardless of the reason to take aim.
Interesting to hear on radio so many foreign voices talking about what is good for NZ and our democracy. It may just be that we should welcome them, which I hadn't done wholeheartedly before. At least they have a wish to preserve some things that they like about NZ and try and save them, which is not the uniform attitude of all actual NZ-born citizens.
This morning on RadioNZ there was a discussion about slow voting in Auckland, hard to motivate the citizens apparently. I wonder if they find that they are so anonymous in the Supershitty and so brassed off with its workings, that they don't feel part of anything that is involved and concerned with them in the great Auckland city. Perhaps they should start a petition to correct the spelling to Orcland or Awkland .
https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/2018717214/councils-stress-still-time-to-vote
politics Councils stress still time to vote
From Morning Report, 8:16 am today Listen duration 3′ :00″
If you haven't voted in your local elections yet – you had better be quick. Voting closes at midday on Saturday, but councils are urging people to act now. Marguerite Delbet, the General Manager Democracy Services at Auckland Council, spoke with Gyles Beckford.
It could be true that the anonymous citizens don't feel part of anything that is involved and concerned with them in the great Auckland city.
It's pretty certain though that when something doesn't suit them 100% they'll be 100% interested. And moan and grizzle that others who they think should 100% feel part of everything that is involved and concerned with the great Auckland city set things up for them or sort out their grievance. 100%.
To reinforce my so-called rant of yesterday, this poor man didnt give up and has my admiration, this article from RNZ this morning confirms this
https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/2018717226/hdc-complainant-accuses-watchdog-of-bias-incompetence2
Looks awesome this one – hope lots of youth go to hear from other, older, activists who created change and fought injustice. Just met a teacher of mine from High School, at a funeral of a classmate – she still remembers my anti tour graffiti around our small town. Proud moment for me to be part of that fight.
Hattip – Sue on fbook
i hope they are inviting extinction rebellion to be honoured guests..?
😎
Have been thinking about this, because of the challenges laid down by Māori to Extinction Rebellion and trying to remember how Pākehā responded to Māori leadership with the anti-Tour organising and mahi.
I was there too (didn't think to graffiti though, damn) but a teen so don't have a good direct sense of what worked and what didn't. It was a watershed time for NZ in terms of confronting our own racism, hugely influential on my politics. I wish I could remember the details better.
Our friends, the enemy
seize their assets – nationalise the bastards – close them down..
let each nation nationalise the branchs/whatever in their countries..
The new head of AirNZ head of Walmart? The gun sale Walmart? The mass shooting Walmart? Oddly enough the puff pieces haven’t mentioned that.. did I read Key bigged him up?
Yep, the very same Wal-Mart, who even by US standards is regarded as an arsehole employer.
Air NZ employees be very afraid