Open mike 11/06/2013

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, June 11th, 2013 - 156 comments
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156 comments on “Open mike 11/06/2013 ”

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  1. Jenny 1
    11 June 2013 at 6:18 am

    Key may be over Dunne.

    But is Key over the GCSB?

    Despite strong assurances from Winston Peters that he does. John Key says he doubts that Peters has the Dunne/Vance emails:

    Peters has claimed to have seen emails that were personally embarrassing for Dunne. But Key questioned that.

    ‘‘I don’t believe that’s correct. I’ve never seen them, I can’t see why Mr Dunne would give it to him, I can’t see why Andrea Vance would give them to him.’’

    KATE CHAPMAN, TRACY WATKINS, VERNON SMALL AND HAMISH RUTHERFORD Stuff.co.nz 10 June 2013

    Our spooks are the only other ones privy to everyone’s emails. Despite keeping Key in the dark, this puts them squarely in the picture as responsible for the leak to Peters.
    The question is; Are our secretive spy agencies heading for a clash with our democracy at this time?

    Our spooks despite their belief that they are above the law, may have gone to far this time.

    John Key is the sole minister responsible for oversight of the GCSB, and SIS. If the spooks bypassed Key to leak the emails to Peters. And if Key finds out this is the case. Then the Prime Minister may consider them to be out of control. And a personal embarrassment to himself, and an insult to the office of Prime Minister.

    This may lead to a serious clash of wills between our spooks and the Prime Minister. Who could demand that someone inside these agencies be held accountable.

    This would actually be an unprecedented situation. These secretive and arrogant spies may never have been held accountable for their behaviour ever before. It will be a new experience for them.

    These secretive goons may think they are in trouble now…… And this is what led them to leak the Dunne/Vance emails to Peters, as revenge against Dunne for Dunne putting the evidence of their illegal spying on 88 New Zealanders into the public domain.

    Which really is where this whole scandal actually springs from.

    • Pascal's bookie 1.1
      11 June 2013 at 7:54 am

      “Our spooks are the only other ones privy to everyone’s emails”

      You don’t need access to everyone’s emails to have access to Dunne’s. You just need access to the servers they are on. The list isn’t long, but it’s not empty.

      In any case, there is no evidence Winston has the emails. He was obviously tipped off about something, but he’s not shown any cards yet that go beyond what we know from Henry’s report.

      • muzza 1.1.1
        11 June 2013 at 8:35 am

        Recall the tea pot saga, Wiwnston blowing hot air about *holding informatioton*.

        His claims then, as now, are hot air!1

        • Morrissey 1.1.1.1
          11 June 2013 at 11:02 am

          Recall the tea pot saga, Winston blowing hot air about “holding information”. His claims then, as now, are hot air!

          Indeed.

          In view of Mr Peters’ reluctance or inability to supply more evidence, and bearing in mind that he is fond of baffling us with a blizzard of bullshit, technically known as “snowing”, it might be an opportune time to remind people that

          “Winston Peters, Dunne-hunter”

          anagrammizes to….

          “Unpenitent thunderer snows.”

      • muzza 1.1.2
        11 June 2013 at 8:35 am

        Recall the tea pot saga, Wiwnston blowing hot air about *holding information*.

        His claims then, as now, are hot air!1

      • bad12 1.1.3
        11 June 2013 at 8:36 am

        True, Winston would only have needed heard on the Parliament gossip line that Dunne had refused to co-operate fully with Henry to put 2 and 2 together,

        Of course if we are speculating, we might think that Slippery the PM realizing that it was odds on that Dunne would not stand for the Parliament again in 2014 and has simply tossed him to the wolves in the form of Winston Peters,

        That’s pretty machiavelian, but National will need NZFirst in 2014 and giving Peters such a juicy piece of red meat and thus NZFirst a large dose of electoral oxygen would have been easily accomplished with a whisper from anyone employed on the 9th floor or a couple of National MP’s discussing Dunne’s refusal to fully co-operate within ear-shot of anyone from NZFirst…

      • Lanthanide 1.1.4
        11 June 2013 at 8:58 am

        When interviewed this morning on Morning Report, I got the distinct impression that Winston had ‘seen something’, probably not the emails themselves, but was not in possession of whatever it was.

        Similar to the teapot saga as muzza alludes to, where it turns out Peter had seen a transcript of them at the TV3 office, but didn’t actually have copies himself.

        • ianmac 1.1.4.1
          11 June 2013 at 10:17 am

          Mr Key says Winston has the emails. Winston has never said he had the emails. Just access to some “electronic information.” Winston says he has enough to supports his view.
          Of course regardless of when, how, or if the emails are released, everyone will be very cautious now about emails for ever, especially in the light of PRISM.

          • Pascal's bookie 1.1.4.1.1
            11 June 2013 at 11:09 am

            Winston was also ahead of the pack in talking about what was in Brash’s emails, just quietly.

          • Huginn 1.1.4.1.2
            11 June 2013 at 7:44 pm

            Do Peter Dunne’s tweets count as ‘electronic information’ ?

      • Jenny 1.1.5
        12 June 2013 at 6:03 am

        Yes, it seems that though Winston Peters has claimed to have seen the emails and is privy to their contents. He is not in possession of them.

        The GCSB and the SIS being the paranoiacs they are. Wouldn;t trust Winston Peters with the Dunne/Vance emails.

        But someone with access (and authorisation), could have met with Peters, pulled out their laptop or smartphone and shown them to him.

        This must be considered a possibility.

        An investigation is called for into the GCSB.

        As the stink gets higher and the spooks keep up their arrogant misbehavior, and law breaking, even a tory administration will start gaging at the smell and get sick of them eventually.

    • Pasupial 1.2
      11 June 2013 at 9:23 am

      If a coalition of parties received enough votes to form a government which was pledged to cancel laws that serve the security interests of our allies, and the Governer-General unconstitutionally refused to sign such legislation; who would the Army follow? Former; Chief of Defense Force, &; Director of GCSB, Lt General Jerry Mateparae, or a civilan hodgepodge of parties led by; an ex-UN aid worker, an Australian, and a Maori Radical?

      [Cut & pasted from a (in retrospect; otherwise rather pissy) comment I made in response to Phoebe Fletcher’s excellent article on the daily blog.] Link: http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2013/06/08/a-dunne-drama-lets-focus-on-the-important-bit-the-policy/%5D

      • freedom 1.2.1
        11 June 2013 at 10:57 am

        If it actually came to that level of action, the lines would be even clearer than in ’81. I suspect many kiwi soldiers would choose defending New Zealand over defending America.

        • Pasupial 1.2.1.1
          11 June 2013 at 11:44 am

          Placard waving civilians wearing motorcycle crash helmets and cricket pads vs experienced soldiers in full bullet-resistant body armour? Then there are; the LAVs, the drone (if they ever get it to work), fully automatic weapons, artillary, plus whatever goodies that the inevitable military aid will throw into the mix. Speaking as someone with military on both sides of the family (been a few heated discussions there, as you can imagine), soldiers are best at following orders down the chain of command. Deserters in a time of war are hunted down and shot.

          But what am I thinking? Such things could never happen here…
          [We really need that “sarcastica” font that Arj Barker talks about!]

          • freedom 1.2.1.1.1
            11 June 2013 at 12:58 pm

            maybe you misunderstood what I said.
            I suspect many kiwi soldiers would choose to defend New Zealand, not attack it”

            As far as any other Nation [read USA] having a go at us, if it gets to that point we are fubar anyway

            • Pasupial 1.2.1.1.1.1
              11 June 2013 at 1:12 pm

              But what if these soldiers believe they are defending NZ (as represented in the Queen’s representative; the Governor General), against the forces of terroristic anarchy? They may in fact be propping up a corrupt kleptcracy run in the economic interests of another nation; but that kind of thinking is not exactly encouraged in the defence forces.

              It was hard enough too end my the last comment on an upbeat, it’s just beyond me here… The best I can do is to point out when the Bolivian army was ordered to slaughter their own families when they tried to collect rain-water to drink rather than pay the exorbitant cost of tap-water (the infrastructure having been hocked off Haliburton), they did refuse, and rebelled. Which led to the socialist government of Evo Morales. It was a long hard road to that happy ending though, and there were many corpses left on the wayside.

  2. Jenny 2
    11 June 2013 at 6:24 am

    The GCSB may think that they have it all over the Prime Minister. But John Key may have the power to make them think again.

    If Key cannot get the GCSB to play ball, and own up for going over his head to Winston Peters. In response the Prime Minister may demand the release of the names of those illegally spied on, so that these people can take their own cases against this out of control spy agency. A scenario that they would not welcome at all.

    • bad12 2.1
      11 June 2013 at 8:15 am

      There is no evidence that the GCSB leaked information to Winston Peters so what you are saying is merely speculation which is all good if you label it as such instead of publishing such as ‘fact’ as you seem to have done…

  3. Jenny 3
    11 June 2013 at 6:25 am

    Beyond the possible clash between the prime minister and the spies. The spies and the government may also be set on a collision course with our journalists and the media.

    Fairfax Group executive editor Paul Thompson said Fairfax was “absolutely” backing Vance.

    “Andrea is a very talented journalist, she has done some terrific work this year,” he said.

    “Her handling of the GCSB report was absolutely faultless and there was nothing improper going on. We are 100 per cent behind her.”

    He said politicians should tread carefully before embarking on a witch hunt. That could have a chilling effect on how journalists covered politicians.

    “The protection of our sources is paramount,” Thompson said.

    “We will resist any attempt to force us to release that sort of information.’’

    KATE CHAPMAN, TRACY WATKINS, VERNON SMALL AND HAMISH RUTHERFORD Stuff.co.nz 10 June 2013

    Who knows who will come out on top in this dispute?

  4. Jenny 4
    11 June 2013 at 6:28 am

    The ongoing rolling maul that started with revelations of illegal spying activity by the NZ and US state spy agencies against Kim Dotcom. Just seems to lead to more and more revelations, and is gathering a bigger and bigger head of steam every day.

    The story so far:

    Revelations of illegal GCSB spying uncovered by the high powered Dotcom defence team.

    Leaks from Dunne that illegal spying went way further than Dotcom.
    Prime Minister Key is “irked” by Dunne’s release of the report.
    Subsequent snooping in Dunne’s dirty laundry basket for reasons of possible revenge and humiliation. The minister responsible for spying, John Key, is kept in the dark. Instead; Mysterious retaliatory leaks to a conservative opposition MP.

    And the latest; Revelations from a CIA defector who fled to communist China, about a wider illegal global spying conspiracy. A conspiracy in which our spy agencies let this country be used as a test bed for. Revelations of this intrusive and illegal spying operation first tested on New Zealanders, has become a scandal engulfing both the US and British governments.

    The orwellian horror revealed just grows in scope and size.

    And there are many more revelations yet to come out.

    Stay tuned

  5. Tigger 5
    11 June 2013 at 6:43 am

    http://i.stuff.co.nz/national/8779068/Judge-told-he-should-surrender-knighthood

    Judge told his knighthood may corrupt him.

    There’s a way to fix this. Trash the honours system. All of it. It is very often political anyway. Do things because you want or need to, not in the hope someone might give you a meaningless title.

    • wyndham 5.1
      11 June 2013 at 8:28 am

      Labour did trash it Tigger.

      Key brought the system back. Guess why.

    • RedBaronCV 5.2
      11 June 2013 at 7:22 pm

      Can’t see that happening. This Judge is gullible but not that gullible, looks after himself craps on the nation’s kids.

  6. logie97 6
    11 June 2013 at 7:06 am

    Exchange rate rapid drop.
    Who in NZ is in a position to profit from the recent change in the exchange rate?
    People who had some “surplus” and have been moving it offshore waiting for the inevitable drop?
    Institutions in the know (i.e. privy to inside knowledge)?
    People saddled with mortgages?
    Ordinary mums and dads?
    People living on subsistence salaries?
    If you had Sterling then a 7% gain in the last two weeks is not a bad return if you were to cash up.

    • grumpy 6.1
      11 June 2013 at 1:02 pm

      Who???? Well Shearer for one.

      • logie97 6.1.1
        11 June 2013 at 5:30 pm

        Funny you should say that.
        Actually Shearer’s money was apparently already in the overseas account.
        I was more interested in the people in NZ who were in the know who were in a position to move money around and make transfers while the dollar was high. People who were close to the action, or people who were in a position to influence the situation. In the last two years the dollar has gone steadily from 44pence to the dollar to 56pence to the dollar, and then within a matter of weeks dropped to 50pence. The sort of movements the trading floors love…

  7. logie97 7
    11 June 2013 at 7:33 am

    Apparently the Transport agency wants a name for the motorway tunnel in Auckland.
    I heard a suggestion they call it the “Underwater View”.
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10889686

  8. geoff 8
    11 June 2013 at 7:42 am

    Just heard Winston on Morning Report regarding his source of the Dunne emails. He’s got nothing! What a performance.
    No fool like an old fool eh? 😉

    • Paul 8.1
      11 June 2013 at 7:46 am

      Well he got Dunne to, resign.
      Hardly nothing…….

    • Te Reo Putake 8.2
      11 June 2013 at 7:48 am

      I think ending Peter Dunne’s career counts as a little bit more than nothing, Geoff. If Winston was bluffing, he should consider a career playing poker, because he’s the only winner in this affair. And he was dead right about the real question, which is ‘why won’t Key check the emails?’.

      • geoff 8.2.1
        11 June 2013 at 7:53 am

        Settle down you two, I’m not denying he did nothing, I’m just pointing out he’s over played his hand.

        • Winston Smith 8.2.1.1
          11 June 2013 at 8:07 am

          The scary thing is he’ll probably be in power with either National or Labour…I’m not sure thats a good thing for either party

          • Te Reo Putake 8.2.1.1.1
            11 June 2013 at 8:09 am

            Oh, bollox. The scary thing for you is that it won’t be National.

            • Winston Smith 8.2.1.1.1.1
              11 June 2013 at 9:03 am

              I would rather see National in power (obviously) but my second choice would be Labour (without NZfirst or the Greens)

              • lprent …
                11 June 2013 at 9:13 am

                There hasn’t been a non-coalition government possible since 1996. What makes you think that it is feasible it could happen now? In fact National will probably be the largest party in the coming election, but more than likely be unable to form a coalition, as they have sucked up and dessicated (or pissed off) all of their potential coalition parties and still will get no where close to having a single party majority.

                In the current mis-government they have coalition agreements with the Maori party, John Banks (in court), and Peter Dunne (in disgrace). After the election they are likely to have just one or two MP’s from the Maori party if they are lucky. It isn’t exactly meant to be a “National in power”, although that is what it appears to be (as they suck the remaining political vitality out of the husk of their coalition parties).

                I’m kind of curious about the delusion

                • Winston Smith …
                  11 June 2013 at 9:50 am

                  I’m just saying what I’d like to see not what will happen.

                  But if you want a prediction, here goes: National wins a third term with NZfirst.

                  I’d guess NZFirst supporters would be more comfortable with National than the Greens and thats what will tip the balance.

                  National will win the most seats and Winston will go with the biggest party (as he should)

                  But I won’t be doing cart wheels as it’ll probably mean the coilition will implode thus ruining Judith Collins chances of being PM

                  • Pasupial …
                    11 June 2013 at 10:05 am

                    Hah!.. A “coilition”; yes, that is the perfect term for a potential Natland First government. I imagine two ouroborean snakes slowly choking on one another.

                    • Winston Smith …
                      11 June 2013 at 10:11 am

                      I would have added Act but much like the Greens they really have no where else to go so…

                      National/WinstonFirst/Act will be the next government (and maybe Peter Dunne might sneak in as well)

                    • lprent …
                      11 June 2013 at 2:42 pm

                      Can’t see Act getting in at all. The voters of Epsom (even the most right wing ones I know) are quite literally champing at the bit in their eagerness to get rid of John Banks, and the they’re not much more happy with Act. National’s only chance to get a Act candidate from there is not put up a National candidate – and then watch votes disappear to Labour, Conservatives, or NZ First.

                  • lprent …
                    11 June 2013 at 2:38 pm

                    Can’t see NZ First getting on board with John Key at the helm.Assuming that NZF is within range of being a suitable size, then John Key would have to be ditched and preferably (from the viewpoint of the National MPs) before the election. That scalp from 2008 would probably be sufficient to get Winston to consider it.

                    Judith Collins has displayed no qualities that indicate that she will be any good at coalition building. In fact I’d go so far to say that she has impressed me as being a politician with no obvious redeeming characteristics apart from a relentless personal promotion. I certainly don’t think that two like minded useless egotists in coalition talks will work and I rather suspect that is the way that many of the National MPs will view it.

                    Joyce or almost anyone else is a better bet for the National MPs. Besides they’d bring more useful skills to the job.

                  • felix …
                    11 June 2013 at 3:48 pm

                    “Winston will go with the biggest party (as he should)”

                    And right there Winston Smith you demonstrate that you’re still thinking in FPP.

              • Pasupial …
                11 June 2013 at 9:46 am

                @ O’Brien
                Given that your first choice would be Big Brother (currently trading under the NACT brand), I fail to see why I should care what you’d rather see.

                But, at least; today, you’re not mocking Peters for having the very same first name as the pseudonym you’ve adopted for this site.

          • Pascal's bookie 8.2.1.1.2
            11 June 2013 at 8:35 am

            Best hope for preventing Winston being in power, Winston, is to party vote Green.

            • Winston Smith 8.2.1.1.2.1
              11 June 2013 at 9:04 am

              Do you really believe Labour/Greens will be able to govern without anyone else?

              • Pascal's bookie …
                11 June 2013 at 9:14 am

                It’s the only way Winnie won’t be a minister.

                • Winston Smith …
                  11 June 2013 at 9:52 am

                  I suppose Labour/Greens/Maori Party and Mana might be able to scrape up enough votes…

                  • Colonial Viper …
                    11 June 2013 at 2:46 pm

                    Very very tight and Labour would have to get a very minimum of 33% or 34% on E-Day to pull it off, with the Greens on no less than 14% or so.

                    Potentially possible but I wouldn’t bet my grandma on it.

                    And getting the Maori Party onboard? Another stretch there.

                    • Te Reo Putake …
                      11 June 2013 at 3:59 pm

                      The soundings round Ratana way suggest that the Maori party will have a grand total of no seats at all next election. Turia was their lifeline and they apparently have no obvious candidate in the wings good enough to win her seat in 2014.

                      However, even if they do scrape back in, without Turia the spiteful anybody but Labour position disappears, so they are just as likely to back Shearer in coalition talks. I’d have no problem with a LP/G/MP government if that’s how it plays out. Or a LP/G/Mana one, for that matter.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      11 June 2013 at 4:20 pm

                      Agreed.

            • Populuxe1 8.2.1.1.2.2
              11 June 2013 at 3:46 pm

              Except you seem to have forgotten that (at least as far as I know, and I know rather a lot) neither the Greens or NZF have flat out refused to work with each other this time around.

              • Pascal's bookie …
                11 June 2013 at 4:14 pm

                nope, haven’t forgotten it, it’s just not relevant.

                If Labour need Greens and NZF to govern, then it’s highly likely that NZF would go with National (seeing you ‘know rather a lot’ I guess I don’t need to explain why that is).

                Ergo, the best way to ensure Winston isn’t in a position to be in government is to make sure that governments can be formed without him.

    • freedom 8.3
      11 June 2013 at 8:09 am

      Heard that report also, interesting interpretation there geoff. Peters stated in plain english, it is the PM not being asked the real questions that should be the focus of journalists, not what cards he himself may or may not hold.

      • Alanz 8.3.1
        11 June 2013 at 8:29 am

        Indeed. Winston is correct and spot on.

        The focus is on the responsibility and accountability of John Key as the PM and Minister of GCSB.

        The issues are major as they have been of such gravity involving the ministerial resignation of a coalition partner. And that has happened with such speed and opaqueness, tied to a related negotiated deal involving Speaker’s wrong and bad ruling.

        Don’t let the PM and his spinners distract you and get away with this. The emails are damaging to them and they will do what it takes to suppress their release or to draw things out as long as possible.

        I wish I can post some more this morning but I need to get to the office (and I can’t do that there with Judith, in her designer dresses about to burst at their seams, swanning in and out of the office with a self-satisfied smirk ….. maybe joking here hehe). Not a good idea to post comments on blogs while using work facilities anyway! Have a nice day you all and stay focused on the real issues!

        • Alanz 8.3.1.1
          11 June 2013 at 8:42 am

          Just a few more quick words.

          It wasn’t so clear to Dunne then but the PM/GCSB Minister had more to lose than Dunne himself. It was just that Dunne had the party de-registration thing hanging over his head. He thought he needed something which actually the PM was going to give him anyway because John Key would take a bigger dent.

          At least another opposition party should continue putting pressure about the Speaker’s latest ruling … and someone else need to dig deeper into the circumstances triggering the UF party president requesting the Electoral Commission to cancel UF’s party registration cough cough.

    • mickysavage 8.5
      11 June 2013 at 8:43 am

      OK so Peters is in a death dance with Dunne. Only one will survive. Both of them appear to be blowing smoke of a certain quality. A slightly calmer analysis may show that this is the case.

      For instance Peters previously made a great deal about how Dunne was questioned on oath by Henry. But Henry’s report seems to say nothing of the sort because it acknowledges that he had no power to coerce an answer out of anyone.

      And Dunne says that he did not leak the report to Vance. This may be so. It may be that with a deft Clintonian distortion of the truth he is telling the truth because he did not show Vance a copy of the report but one of his many emails may have contained snippets that then formed the guts of Vance’s article. So no leaking of the report but some leaking of the details.

      To get to the truth we need a media that asks the right questions. Just like Kim Hill did yesterday.

      • freedom 8.5.1
        11 June 2013 at 8:47 am

        How can Dunne be allowed a weeks leave from Parliament at this time?

        Mallard was right. Our Parliament is a farce!

      • veutoviper 8.5.2
        11 June 2013 at 9:10 am

        “For instance Peters previously made a great deal about how Dunne was questioned on oath by Henry.”

        MS – my recollection is that Peters asked repeatedly whether Dunne was questioned under oath – not how. That is, Peters appeared to be implying that he knew that the questioning was not under oath, and that he considered that it should have been. You no doubt understand the difference.

        I totally agree with the rest of your comment.

        Re Kim Hill, high on my to do list for today is to email RNZ on how refreshing it is to have Kim back on Morning Report albeit for just two weeks asking the hard questions compared to the insipid interviewing that has become the standard there over recent years. Kim herself sounds like she has got a new lease of life and is really enjoying being back. It would be great to have her back fulltime or at least much more often as a ‘locum’.

        I hope others also inundate RNZ with support of Kim’s return.

        • mickysavage 8.5.2.1
          11 June 2013 at 12:50 pm

          Agreed Veuto that the questioning was very targeted and he did not way that Dunne was questioned on oath but he did make it sound like Dunne was.

  9. millsy 9
    11 June 2013 at 7:45 am

    So if Auckland’s MUL’s are removed, and Auckland is able to “grow out” as they say, are the people who own the scores of dirt cheap housing that will magically appear going to have access to amenities such as shops, petrol stations, bus stops, parks, libaries, post offices, schools, etc. Or are they just going to suck it up and not have anything?

    Dont really get it.

    • Ad 9.1
      11 June 2013 at 7:55 am

      That’s Massey 1970s redux, or Dannemora 2010 redux.

      Another two decade long binge-purge cycle of leaky homes, social isolation, crap urban design, gradual slumming, transport poverty, acute isolation, disengagement between school-home-work-family-community, together with all the social damage for decades.

      Which gets fixed two or three decades later with truly massive renewal intervention costing billions and billions, fixing up the mess that poor regulation and low-rent developers leave behind. Which is paid for by us ratepayers and us taxpayers.

      Auckland Council’s Auckland Plan debates the Housing Accord draft today. Expect Government to keep in the “reserve the right to override” clause.

      The relevant 7 Ministers come up to Auckland to duscuss it with Council July 16th.

      • mickysavage 9.1.1
        11 June 2013 at 8:51 am

        Aye.

        And at the same time Smith will act to reduce developer contributions. Apparently such things as Art Galleries are “nice to have” not integral parts of community infrastructure. And the market will provide the perfect solution to Auckland’s woes.

        I just spent some time in Sydney. The place has a population density about twice that of Auckland and most sections are much smaller. My sister’s property in a salubrious part of Sydney was 250 square meters, the sort of area that some say will cause the end of civilisation as we know it. But the place works well and the increased density means that public transport works much better.

        Not that practical examples of what can be achieved have ever stood in the way of blinkered ideology …

    • freedom 9.2
      11 June 2013 at 9:26 am

      perhaps Kim Hill cold agree to do a Tuesday and Wednesday slot, that bizarre time when real stories so often are left to die.

  10. bad12 10
    11 June 2013 at 8:24 am

    1 for Lanth, yes i concede the point of the debate we were having vis a vis the proportionality of the Parliament being altered by a by-election,

    i got that one wrong and that is confirmed this morning by an email from the Electoral Commission saying that if a party won an electoral seat in a by-election that they had not held at the previous election that party’s share of list MP’s would not change,

    Will email them later and see if their position is supported by Law or Regulation or they have assumed such a position because the Law and Regulations do not specifically address that issue…

    • Lanthanide 10.1
      11 June 2013 at 9:01 am

      Ta, bad.

    • freedom 10.2
      11 June 2013 at 9:44 am

      ” or they have assumed such a position because the Law and Regulations do not specifically address that issue…” with current form being displayed in the House, that certainly seems a necessary distinction

      • bad12 10.2.1
        11 June 2013 at 1:06 pm

        Have just sent another mail to the Electoral Commission putting the relevant questions to them, there is possibly an amendment or regulation attached to the 1993 electoral act some place where i couldn’t see it that allows for the proportionality of the Parliament to be upset by a by-election but so far i haven’t been able to find it,

        i have the sneaking suspicion that such a situation occurring where the proportionality of the Parliament could be altered by a by-election might not have been thought of when the 1993 legislation was drafted and perhaps someone(s) have granted unto themselves without regulatory right the right to alter the proportionality of the Parliament in the unlikely event of a by-election delivering such a result,

        That however is mere speculation on my part and we will see what the Electoral Commissions reply contains, i would hate to see the proportionality of the Parliament distorted simply because someone(s) don’t like the idea of the lowest placed MP on a party’s list being given the kick should their party win a by-election…

        • Lanthanide 10.2.1.1
          11 June 2013 at 6:32 pm

          Gobsmacked posted this yesterday:
          http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-09062013/#comment-645950

          I think that makes it fairly clear that your suggestion is unworkable: just as a list member resigning after winning a by-election increases the party’s seat count by 1, resigning as a list-member after a colleague won the by-election and becoming an independent that votes along with your former party (a la Horan) would equally allow the party’s effective seat count to increase by 1.

  11. kiwicommie 11
    11 June 2013 at 8:32 am

    Al Jazeera
    Racism: Tolerated and trivialised in New Zealand
    Indigenous groups seek to fight back against stereotypes being pushed in mainstream media.

    […]Public support and governmental complacency

    But it is not just Nisbet who believes the cartoons are an acceptable part of popular and political culture. Marlborough Express editor Steve Mason claims that although the paper has received complaints, the cartoons have also garnered public support. And then there is governmental leadership that refuses to seriously intervene. New Zealand’s Race Relations Commissioner, Susan Devoy, states that although the cartoons are offensive, they do not exceed a racism threshold established by the Human Rights Commission. Even New Zealand’s Prime Minister, John Key, chimed in, arguing that the racism threshold should not be changed because, like pornography, racism is subjectively defined.

    http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2013/06/2013691024183680.html
    Thanks to National and Nisbet, New Zealand’s international reputation has been brought into a disrepute, for refusing to act over racism. Like people didn’t see this coming.

    • fatty 11.1
      11 June 2013 at 11:07 am

      Thanks to National and Nisbet, New Zealand’s international reputation has been brought into a disrepute

      I think this issue has strengthened our (negative) international reputation. We are well known around the world for our racism

      • Populuxe1 11.1.1
        11 June 2013 at 3:54 pm

        And you obviously don’t get out much as we genuinely have a high reputation for race relations compared to the UK, France and Australia, but what ever floats the chip on your shoulder, eh?

        • fatty 11.1.1.1
          11 June 2013 at 4:32 pm

          Cheers for backing up my point by listing three of the most ethno-centric nations in the world.
          Two colonial nations and Aussie, nice one. Downward comparisons aren’t really my thing, but you go for it
          Anything else to offer?

    • Populuxe1 11.2
      11 June 2013 at 3:51 pm

      If racisim is “subjectively defined”, how can you have a threshold at all?

      • fatty 11.2.1
        12 June 2013 at 9:35 am

        because all forms of violence (racism being on of them) can be subjective.

        Probably best if you don’t use Plant Key logic in your arguments

  12. marty mars 12
    11 June 2013 at 8:53 am

    A nice article about putting the culture back into agriculture

    “At one point ‘agriculture’ was about the culture of food. Losing that culture, in favor of an American cultural monocrop, joined with an agricultural monocrop, puts us in a perilous state…” says food and Native activist Winona LaDuke.[i]

    Her lament is an agribusiness executive’s dream. The CEO of the H.J. Heinz Company said, “Once television is there, people, whatever shade, culture, or origin, want roughly the same things.”[ii] The same things are based on the same technology, same media sources, same global economy, and same food.

    http://intercontinentalcry.org/putting-the-culture-back-in-agriculture-reviving-native-food-and-farming-traditions/

    The article offers some solutions and continues the discussion some have been having on this forum about this subject.

  13. Morrissey 13
    11 June 2013 at 9:13 am

    LIARS OF OUR TIME
    No. 20: John Key

    “But if the question is do we use the United States or one of our other partners to circumvent New Zealand law then the answer is categorically no.”

    John Key, TV3 Firstline, Tuesday 11 June 2013

    See also….
    No. 19 Matthew Hooton: “It is ridiculous to say that unions deliver higher wages! They DON’T!”
    No. 18 Ant Strachan: “The All Blacks won the RWC 2011 because of outstanding defence!”
    No. 17 Stephen Franks: “Peter has been such a level-headed, safe pair of hands.”
    No. 16 Phil Kafcaloudes: “Tony Abbott…hasn’t made any mistakes over the past eighteen months.”
    No. 15 Donald Rumsfeld: “I did not lie… Colin Powell did not lie.”
    No. 14 Colin Powell: “a post-9/11 nexus between Iraq and terrorist organizations…connections are now emerging…”
    No.13 Barack Obama: “Simply put, these strikes have saved lives.”
    http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-27052013/#comment-638881
    No. 12 U.K. Ministry of Defence: “Protecting the Afghan civilian population is one of ISAF and the UK’s top priorities.”
    No. 11 Brendan O’Connor: “Australia’s approach to refugees is compassionate and generous.”
    No. 10 Boris Johnson: “Londoners have… the best police in the world to look after us and keep us safe.”
    No. 9 NewstalkZB PR dept: “News you NEED! Fast, fair, accurate!”
    No. 8 Simon Bridges: “I don’t mean to duck the question….”
    No. 7 Nigel Morrison: “Quite frankly, they’ve been VERY tough.”
    
http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-15052013/#comment-633295
    
No. 6 NZ Herald PR dept: “Congratulations—you’re reading New Zealand’s best newspaper.”

    
No. 5 Rawdon Christie: “…a FORMIDABLE replacement, it seems, is Claudette Hauiti.”
http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-13052013/#comment-632594

    No. 4 Willie and J.T.: “The X-Factor. Nah, nah, there’s some GREAT talent there!”

    No. 3 John Key: “Yeah we hold MPs to a higher standard.”
    
No. 2 Colin Craig: “Oh, I have a GREAT sense of humour.”
    
No. 1 Barack Obama: “Margaret Thatcher was one of the great champions of freedom and liberty.”

  14. prism 14
    11 June 2013 at 9:38 am

    Listening to Greg O’Connor this morning he sounded like Peter Dunne with that firm, certain tone in his voice. A bit of uncertainty is called for in these complex days I think. ‘We think this is the best approach but we will be monitoring it for effectiveness and open to suggestions’ sort of thing.

    Why do we hear so much about policing matters from the President of the Police Association which is a union (though they call it a service organisation), and why isn’t there an official police spokesperson who is a go-to?

    • muzza 14.1
      11 June 2013 at 8:44 pm

      Because Greg O’connor is a drunk, and thats the sort of front face, easily bent over, ideal for taking the public lashing, and happy to do so.

      Thats Greg!

  15. Morrissey 15
    11 June 2013 at 9:47 am

    The project to criminalize and marginalize dissent:
    Radio NZ’s thoughtless “news” items make it an accomplice to state repression

    After listening to Suzy Ferguson read out a “news” item that might have been composed for her by the U.S. State Department, or the Pentagon, I sent her the following e-mail….

    Date: 10 June 2013
    Time: 5:35 p.m.
    From: morrisseybreen@gmail.com
    To: checkpoint@radionz.co.nz

    Your prejudiced language used to describe Edward Snowden

    Dear Suzy,

    You have twice said that the whistleblower Edward Snowden is “holed up” in Hong Kong. That is the kind of language that is used to describe a desperado on the run after robbing a bank or murdering someone. When you do that, you (perhaps unwittingly) repeat the U.S. government’s propaganda against this dissenter.

    Why do you not say that he has taken refuge in Hong Kong?

    Yours in concern at the standards at Radio NZ,

    Morrissey Breen
    Northcote Point

    No reply so far, more than twelve hours later.

    I urge others to contact this publicly funded organization and make the same point, then demand a reply.

  16. Winston Smith 16
    11 June 2013 at 10:21 am

    http://i0.wp.com/www.whaleoil.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Norman-11062013.png

    Now thats interesting, what brought the change of heart on…

    • fatty 16.1
      11 June 2013 at 11:11 am

      Sorry, I don’t click on whaleoil links.
      Probably better if you paraphrase what he’s said. Some of us have self respect

      • Winston Smith 16.1.1
        11 June 2013 at 11:29 am

        Oh arn’t we sooo superior, if you’d checked you’d see its a screenshot of a detailed post from Russell Norman

        • prism 16.1.1.1
          11 June 2013 at 12:16 pm

          W Smith
          Well don’t be a tease, tell us about it. It’s a dirty job going to WO but you’re the person to do it apparently. And we will await your report.

        • Draco T Bastard 16.1.1.2
          11 June 2013 at 6:30 pm

          So, why didn’t you just link to Russel Norman’s post?

      • veutoviper 16.1.2
        11 June 2013 at 12:37 pm

        As I am about to head to the shower, I clicked on it and as WS says, it is purely a screenshot of Norman’s post – not a link to WO itself.

        And it is worth reading.

        • freedom 16.1.2.1
          11 June 2013 at 1:53 pm

          and it did come from Norman’s FB page

        • Winston Smith 16.1.2.2
          11 June 2013 at 2:25 pm

          theres enough paranoid conspicracies on here as it is (don’t mention fluride!) but it is quite a a quick turn around

          Who got to him, why get to him and what leverage was used to get to him…or did he just realise he was overeacting…

          • weka 16.1.2.2.1
            11 June 2013 at 3:17 pm

            What’s Norman done a turn around on? Can you please link to something to compare the FB bit to?

            • felix 16.1.2.2.1.1
              11 June 2013 at 3:54 pm

              Yes Winston, show us the “turnaround”. Has Norman contradicted an earlier statement?

              You wouldn’t just be taking Slater’s word for that would you? He’s well known to have hated Australians since the age of 6.

          • weka 16.1.2.2.2
            11 June 2013 at 9:06 pm

            Still waiting Winston. What exactly did Norman do a turn around on?

  17. Morrissey 17
    11 June 2013 at 11:34 am

    The Eloquence of Fran O’Sullivan
    Fran O’Sullivan, interviewed by Kathryn Ryan
    Radio NZ National, 11 June 2013, 11:07 to 11:24 a.m.

    “um, ahh”….89
    “Well” …….11

    • Tim 17.1
      11 June 2013 at 2:44 pm

      I think they actually pay them (her) too!
      It’s a bit like those deep an meaningful ‘market analysis’ commentaries on nightly news ‘shows’ where the market analysts are the traders and ‘chief economists’ from various institutions. (Impartial of course!)
      It reminds me of the late 80s/early 90s when we used to keep score of their various predictions – you could have been more accurate usually with the aid of a dart board.

  18. Morrissey 18
    11 June 2013 at 12:10 pm

    NewstalkZB host reckons it’s time to “speak out about prejudice”!
    This time, however, he’s on the side of the VICTIMS….
    NewstalkZB, Monday 10 June 2013, 12:20 p.m.

    Your host: DANNY WATSON!

    Prince Harry—the heroic “Warrior Prince”—is renowned for drinking till he’s shit-faced, snorting coke, cavorting with prostitutes and killing peasants in Afghanistan. And now, this paragon of English manhood has defended a gay soldier against bullying.

    No, I don’t believe that last bit either—but that’s the latest story to come out of the British Army’s enormous, indefatigable PR machine.

    One person who evidently DOES believe this unlikely tale of royal heroism is NewstalkZB’s Danny Watson, who used it to set up the topic for today’s learned discussion: “Are we an intolerant society?”

    DANNY WATSON: Are we more tolerant these days? I think we are. But when we hear someone using derogatory language against ANY group, it’s our duty to speak out! Michael, hello!

    MICHAEL: We hear a lot about gays being discriminated against, but what about them discriminating against others? I was abused by a group of gays just this morning.

    DANNY WATSON: What do you mean?

    MICHAEL: Well I was in a supermarket andTHEY called ME homophobic. Now to me they are just like robbers and boy racers—I don’t like what robbers and boy racers do either, but I don’t hate the person.

    DANNY WATSON: [dubiously] Y-y-yeahhhhh….

    MICHAEL: I’m not SCARED of them. They just think they can attack me because I’m a Christian….

    NewstalkZB. Tune Your Mind.

    • fender 18.1
      11 June 2013 at 2:19 pm

      He may pretend to be more compassionate than his colleagues but Danny anti-“free money” Watson is just as gross as the others, FoulTalkZB is shit radio imo and more likely to screw your mind or redden your neck than anything else.

  19. fender 19
    11 June 2013 at 12:42 pm

    It will be very concerning if the opportunistic, pro ’81 Springbok tour supporter John Key decides to attend the seemingly imminent funeral of Nelson Mandela.

  20. mickysavage 20
    11 June 2013 at 12:53 pm

    Question 4 today in Parliament from Shearer to Key:

    “Has he received any information that shows foreign intelligence agencies are routinely collecting emails, other communication or location data on New Zealand citizens and residents while they are in New Zealand; if so, has the resulting information been passed on to the Government Communications Security Bureau?”

    I am sure the answer should be yes but Key will never admit that.

    • McFlock 20.1
      11 June 2013 at 12:56 pm

      he’ll refuse to answer on the grounds of security. Cocksucker.

      • Colonial Viper 20.1.1
        11 June 2013 at 12:58 pm

        yeah, the grounds of his job security.

      • Morrissey 20.1.2
        11 June 2013 at 3:31 pm

        he’ll refuse to answer on the grounds of security. Cocksucker.

        Stick with the handle “McFlock”, my friend.

        • McFlock 20.1.2.1
          11 June 2013 at 4:49 pm

          Did you need a computer to help you with that joke, too?

          • Morrissey 20.1.2.1.1
            11 June 2013 at 7:16 pm

            Did you need a computer to help you with that joke, too?

            Nope. It was a spontaneous human reaction, even if on reflection it was a bit puerile.

            I used a computer for this one, however….

            McFlock’s now known as “Cocksucker”—-his new handle.

            which, significantly, anagrammizes to….

            Wreckful condom slackens. Check! Now wash on sink.

            • Colonial Viper 20.1.2.1.1.1
              11 June 2013 at 7:20 pm

              We having a competition to replicate the Sewer?

              • Morrissey …
                11 June 2013 at 8:46 pm

                We having a competition to replicate the Sewer?

                McCocksucker started it.

                [RL: Good place to end it.]

    • muzza 20.2
      11 June 2013 at 8:52 pm

      Should be getting through to people, how the system could quite easily function, to blackmail MPs, the world , in large chunks , will be run on shame!

      The intelligence agencies are out of control, have been since they formed, just now that people are beginning to learn but what sort of reach, and some of the antics, these wankers are capable of!

  21. freedom 21
    11 June 2013 at 1:19 pm

    For Mr W Smith, and all who need new nightmares
    http://postimg.org/image/ft18zsqtf/

    apologies to the various cartoonists involved

  22. gobsmacked 22
    11 June 2013 at 1:21 pm

    Let’s play Soundbite Bingo!

    Guess the prepared lines given to David Shearer by his staff before today’s press conference …

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL1306/S00076/david-shearers-pre-caucus-press-conference-11-june-2013.htm

    • Rob 22.1
      11 June 2013 at 2:05 pm

      Oh well in his defence , he probably has his mind on other issues, like how many of the $1000 tickets he will sell to his lunch with Sir Ian McKellan.

  23. Winston Smith 23
    11 June 2013 at 2:37 pm

    And now for some good news:

    http://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/national-standards-and-ng%C4%81-whanaketanga-rumaki-m%C4%81ori-data-released

    “Pasifika children showed the greatest increase on last year, improving by around 3 per cent in all three standards.”

    Of course its early days and theres still a ways to go but this is a promising start.

    Well done Anne Tolley and National standards

    • Morrissey 23.1
      11 June 2013 at 3:29 pm

      An ignorant right wing dope blithers thusly….

      Well done Anne Tolley and National standards

      Even though YOU will not get the irony, it will amuse others here that you have unwittingly chosen an Orwell character’s name to post your adulation of the most anti-democratic government this country has ever suffered.

      • Winston Smith 23.1.1
        11 June 2013 at 4:25 pm

        No unwittingly about it, its more a reaction to every left-wing nutbar that keeps mentioning 1984 whenever the government (sorry the National government) do anything.

        I sometimes think that theres more than a few lefty nutbars who wouldn’t mind us coming under big brothers rule just so they could say told you so

        • Morrissey 23.1.1.1
          11 June 2013 at 7:19 pm

          No unwittingly about it, its more a reaction to every left-wing nutbar that keeps mentioning 1984 whenever the government (sorry the National government) do anything.

          You’re unwitting, all right. Do you even know what George Orwell wrote about?

          I sometimes think that theres more than a few lefty nutbars who wouldn’t mind us coming under big brothers rule just so they could say told you so

          In case you haven’t noticed, we are very much under Big Brother’s rule.

          (Hell, what am I saying? Of course he hasn’t noticed.)

        • Draco T Bastard 23.1.1.2
          11 June 2013 at 7:19 pm

          You have the job at the Ministry of Truth don’t you?

          National Standards are useless because they’re neither standard nor national. Throw in the fact that teaching to the test dumbs the the children down and decimates their creativity and National Standards are the worst thing that any government could have done to their educational system.

          Of course, that’s what National want and, in fact, need. People who actually question what their told will easily see through National’s lies.

    • fatty 23.2
      11 June 2013 at 6:28 pm

      Its a shame National’s arithmetic fails them when they need to count the number of Kiwi’s in poverty.
      But make up some incomparable and questionable stats, and the monkeys will clap

  24. Morrissey 24
    11 June 2013 at 3:25 pm

    With War Crimes Argument Banned,
    Manning’s Military Trial Is Judicial Lynching
    by CHRIS HEDGES, 10 June 2013

    The military trial of Bradley Manning is a judicial lynching. The government has effectively muzzled the defense team. The Army private first class is not permitted to argue that he had a moral and legal obligation under international law to make public the war crimes he uncovered. The documents that detail the crimes, torture and killing Manning revealed, because they are classified, have been barred from discussion in court, effectively removing the fundamental issue of war crimes from the trial. Manning is forbidden by the court to challenge the government’s unverified assertion that he harmed national security. Lead defense attorney David E. Coombs said during pretrial proceedings that the judge’s refusal to permit information on the lack of actual damage from the leaks would “eliminate a viable defense, and cut defense off at the knees.” And this is what has happened.

    Manning is also barred from presenting to the court his motives for giving the website WikiLeaks hundreds of thousands of classified diplomatic cables, war logs from Afghanistan and Iraq, and videos. The issues of his motives and potentially harming national security can be raised only at the time of sentencing, but by then it will be too late.

    The draconian trial restrictions, familiar to many Muslim Americans tried in the so-called war on terror, presage a future of show trials and blind obedience. Our email and phone records, it is now confirmed, are swept up and stored in perpetuity on government computers. Those who attempt to disclose government crimes can be easily traced and prosecuted under the Espionage Act. Whistle-blowers have no privacy and no legal protection. This is why Edward Snowden—a former CIA technical assistant who worked for a defense contractor with ties to the National Security Agency and who leaked to Glenn Greenwald at the Guardian the information about the National Security Council’s top-secret program to collect Americans’ cellphone metadata, e-mail and other personal data—has fled the United States. The First Amendment is dead. There is no legal mechanism left to challenge the crimes of the power elite. We are bound and shackled. And those individuals who dare to resist face the prospect, if they remain in the country, of joining Manning in prison, perhaps the last refuge for the honest and the brave.

    Coombs opened the trial last week by pleading with the judge, Army Col. Denise Lind, for leniency based on Manning’s youth and sincerity. Coombs is permitted by Lind to present only circumstantial evidence concerning Manning’s motives or state of mind. He can argue, for example, that Manning…..

    Read more….
    http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/16861-with-war-crimes-argument-banned-mannings-military-trial-is-judicial-lynching

  25. weka 25
    11 June 2013 at 3:32 pm

    I/S –

    An illegal DNA databank in the UK

    Back in 1995, the UK government set up a national DNA databank to hold the DNA profiles of people arrested and imprisoned. Since then it has become one of the most extensive DNA databases in the world, holding profiles on almost 6 million people (many of whom have not been charged with any crime). But that’s not enough for the police – it turns out they’ve been keeping a parallel secret database without statutory authority:
    Police and intelligence services have been sending terror suspects’ DNA to counterparts around the world with no official scrutiny over their actions, a government watchdog has warned.

    The National DNA Database Ethics Group has demanded an explanation as fears emerged that a little-known archive of thousands of samples, often taken without permission from innocent people during counter-terrorism operations, had been operating with “no statutory basis”.

    The group has also asked ministers to detail exactly what information from the Counter Terrorism DNA database – operated by the Metropolitan Police as an “adjunct” to the national database – has been handed to foreign governments and intelligence services, and what safeguards govern how the information is used.

    This likely violates the Data Protection Act and possibly other legislation. The question now is whether the police will be punished for it, or whether they are in fact above the law.

    Meanwhile, this raises an obvious question: are our police doing the same?
    Posted by Idiot/Savant at 6/11/2013 02:21:00 PM

    http://norightturn.blogspot.com.au/2013/06/an-illegal-dna-databank-in-uk.html

    I remember when that DNA database was set up, and the concerns about how it would eventually be used.

    We are so fucked. Might be time to batten down the hatches.

    • Morrissey 25.1
      11 June 2013 at 3:46 pm

      We are so fucked. Might be time to batten down the hatches.

      Hmmmm. If you’re so concerned about civil liberties, how come you were joining our resident fascists in yesterday’s gang-bang against dissenters?

      • weka 25.1.1
        11 June 2013 at 4:15 pm

        Link, so I know what the fuck you are on about.

        Nice early Godwin btw.

        It’s people like you that make me despair sometimes. We can recognise people like Key or Hooton for what they are and act accordingly, but people like you, who are supposedly on the same side, but have almost no capacity to build relationship because you believe that your views are the most important thing and never wrong, well you just suck the lifeblood out of any useful movement towards change. It’s a pity you cannot stand dissent (irony alert), because you do bring in useful POVs and information. But then so much gets lost in the aftermath.

        Of course what will follow now will be:

        1. no link

        2. apparent refutation of what I say, but completely devoid of anything of substance that addresses my points, and full of pseudo-clever phrasings about how terrible weka is – because that’s the most important thing, isn’t it? What is apparently wrong with me, as opposed to intelligently critiquing my views or actions.

        Let me give you some clues: instead of calling me all the variations of an idiot, why not try and explain what you disagree with by referring to what I have said.

        (you won’t of course be able to use yesterday as an example, because I wasn’t being fascist, nor was I ‘gang-banging’* dissenters).

        * 🙁

        • Morrissey 25.1.1.1
          11 June 2013 at 8:27 pm

          1.) Link, so I know what the fuck you are on about.

          Have a look at our little contre-temps on yesterday’s Open Mike. That’s what I was referring to.

          2.) Nice early Godwin btw.

          Oh God, we’re back on the Godwin’s train, are we? All right, let’s agree that, although those fellows who were pouring scorn on Edward Snowden—Populuxe1 sneering at him as a “desk jockey” with a “narcissistic personality disorder and fantasies of being James Bond”—may not be signed up members of the S.S. Trust or the Nazi Party, they are certainly keen to recycle official lies, as soon as they are promulgated. Snowden’s unveiling only happened a couple of days ago; Populuxe was repeating the official line on him within 24 hours.

          3.) It’s people like you that make me despair sometimes. We can recognise people like Key or Hooton for what they are and act accordingly, but people like you, who are supposedly on the same side, but have almost no capacity to build relationship because you believe that your views are the most important thing and never wrong, well you just suck the lifeblood out of any useful movement towards change.

          Your claims about me are both extreme and unfair. In what way have I shown I “have almost no capacity to build a relationship”? I am more than willing to enter into a good faith discussion; I am also perfectly willing to modify my views, and even discard some of them after being convinced.

          4.) It’s a pity you cannot stand dissent (irony alert),

          Again, that is an unfair and entirely erroneous statement.

          5.) ….because you do bring in useful POVs and information. But then so much gets lost in the aftermath.

          I think you are blaming me for the hysterical denunciations engaged in by a few people—with, yes, Populuxe1 being the most unhinged of those denouncers.

          6.) Of course what will follow now will be:

          1. no link

          I gave the link.

          7.) 2. apparent refutation of what I say, but completely devoid of anything of substance that addresses my points, and full of pseudo-clever phrasings about how terrible weka is – because that’s the most important thing, isn’t it? What is apparently wrong with me, as opposed to intelligently critiquing my views or actions.

          No, I don’t think that, and I’ve never thought it. I think you’re a valuable contributor to this forum.

          8.) Let me give you some clues: instead of calling me all the variations of an idiot, why not try and explain what you disagree with by referring to what I have said.

          (you won’t of course be able to use yesterday as an example, because I wasn’t being fascist, nor was I ‘gang-banging’* dissenters).

          I accept your word in good faith. But just take a good luck at what I write in future.

          • weka 25.1.1.1.1
            11 June 2013 at 9:22 pm

            Ok, fair enough Morrissey, and thanks for your considered reply.

            I’m still not really sure what you were referring to yesterday (I read alot of comments, but not all of them). I don’t consider any of the regulars here to be fascists. Nor myself.

            I probably disagree with some of the same people you do, but IMO the point of Godwin’s law is to stop comparisons of relatively ordinary behaviour with the extremities of the Holocaust because once those comparisons start we may as well all call each other fuckwits and go home (ie the debate is nearing pointlessness). Reading Godwin yesterday, I understand that one of his primary motivations was to prevent that kind of dishonour of Holocaust victims. In other words we should save the word fascist for when we really need it.

            btw, I don’t think I’ve expressed an opinion about Snowden yet, but fwiw, on the basis of what I’ve seen so far, I think he is brave and doing the US and the world a great service. I also think that it’s almost impossible for us to know the truth about him as a person, and that his motivations may be more complex that what we are being shown presently.

            It may help to know that reasonably often I will argue something in a discussion on principle that has little bearing on what I think about the actual topic eg my first comments recently about Godwin were aimed at people on both sides of the debate, and were irrespective of what I thought about fluoridation of public water supplies. Sometimes people get confused about which side I am on.

    • marty mars 25.2
      11 June 2013 at 4:15 pm

      This from wikipedia
      “The UK DNA database is one of the world’s largest, and has prompted concerns from some quarters as to its scope and usage. The database helps in solving crime and prosecuting runaway criminals years after the crime has been committed. Recordable offences include begging, being drunk and disorderly and taking part in an illegal demonstration.”

      Yep we are fucked and it would be nice to know if our law enforcement are doing the same or similar but it is a rhetorical question really because they will be.

  26. Molly 26
    11 June 2013 at 3:42 pm

    Every month my heart sinks when I collect the offerings from our letterbox, and included within it is the free eLocal magazine.

    (I live in Franklin, and while there are some salt of the earth types around, I think it is reasonable to say that a book of Al Nisbet’s cartoons would be a popular stocking filler around Christmas time.)

    Every edition of the eLocal contains at least one diatribe against Māori. This month’s edition contains the feature Twi$ting the Treaty – A Tribal Grab for Wealth and Power along with a couple of other articles denigrating in some way our tangata whenua.

    To give some indication of the tone of the feature articles (and indeed the whole publication): the opening paragraph:

    The big question out of dozens that this book raises for me, is this: Is New Zealand moving towards an apartheid style of Government, where the Māori race prevails over all others?”

    Every month I put aside the magazine in order to compile an email list of the advertisers, so that I can vent to those that pay to have this drivel delivered for free to my address. To my dismay, I find that each month that list gets bigger and bigger and now over half of the 64 pages of this magazine are advertisements of some sort for local businesses.

    So, once again I’ll put my magazine aside for my to-do list, but thought I would post the link to the publication here, along with the information that a new political party 1Law4All that supports this view is also being promoted in this business subsidised rubbish.

    You can view back editions to read what residents of Franklin and the local tangata whenua have to put up with.

    Moderation is used for comments – so I’m waiting to see whether mine will be published.
    Feel free to add your own and give the moderators something to do…

    • Molly 26.1
      11 June 2013 at 5:42 pm

      Surprise… did get published.. along with this answer from the editor.
      (Don’t even want to comment on the repeated spelling errors from this editor.)

      Molly
      Tuesday, June 11, 2013

      I consider most of your articles offensive, and ill informed. It is a shame that constant denigration of a treaty partner is considered to be still acceptable in NZ society today.
      Perhaps you should read books that expand your world view, instead of selecting only those that reinforce it.

      editor
      Tuesday, June 11, 2013

      Thank you for your comment Molly. I would like to ask you which books that can expand my view that you feel is making elocal an ill informed product. I would like to point out that we are pointing out the obvious in that the traty partner has privilaged rights over all other ethnic groups. Here are a just a few of those rights that non Maori can not participate in. I’m not sure why you would not see the obvious?

      MAORI-ONLY PRIVILAGES …
      Schools
      Education scholarships
      Housing projects
      Health prioritisation and initiatives
      Welfare (whanau ora)
      Prisoner programmes
      Positions on government agencies
      Consultation rights under the RMA
      Parks, rivers, lakes, coastline
      Maori authority tax rates
      Maori authority tax-free status
      Seats on local councils
      Local government statutory boards
      Local government liaison committees
      Seats in parliament
      Sports teams
      Maori Land Owners Trustee Organisation Brand
      Maori electoral roll
      Agribusiness Awards
      Maori TV Channel
      Billions of $ of Government payouts
      Music Awards
      Forest Rental Trust, which only Maori can use to finance their claims however the forests are owned by the public. (“Let the Truth be known” by Hilda Philips she found there were about 269 Acts giving Maori preference over non-Maori).
      Sole Rights to Greenstone in the South Island
      Sole Rights to whale watching and beached whales

      Heading off to Bill McKibbens talk at the moment. Please feel free to send the editor of the Franklin Elocal some reading literature that might help him out.

      • Colonial Viper 26.1.1
        11 June 2013 at 5:56 pm

        Maybe the editor would also like to get a share of high Maori unemployment and imprisonment ‘privalages’?

    • Molly 26.2
      11 June 2013 at 5:45 pm

      Surprise… did get published.. along with this answer from Franklin Elocal.
      (Don’t even want to comment on the repeated spelling errors from this editor.)

      [karol – deleted repeated content]

    • Molly 26.3
      11 June 2013 at 5:46 pm

      Surprise… did get published.. along with this answer from Franklin Elocal.
      (Don’t even want to comment on the repeated spelling errors from this editor.)

      [karol: deleted most of the repeated content – won’t trash the whole repeat post as it will disrupt the discussions that follow]

      • Molly 26.3.1
        11 June 2013 at 5:50 pm

        Crap… don’t know what happened. Moderator feel free to delete multiple posts.

    • Molly 26.4
      11 June 2013 at 5:46 pm

      Sorry, double hit…

    • marty mars 26.5
      11 June 2013 at 6:07 pm

      Molly I’m afraid that Franklin eLocal whateveritis has a history of racism and stupidity – good luck with fighting it – check out Reading the Maps for other attempts

      http://readingthemaps.blogspot.co.nz/2009/11/mykeljon-picks-another-loser.html

      http://readingthemaps.blogspot.co.nz/2009/01/pseudo-history-countering-cranks.html

    • RedBaronCV 26.6
      11 June 2013 at 7:59 pm

      Firstly I looked at the advertising rates and the 1st three months is free and I wouldn’t mind betting that it gets rolled over for free too. So if you ask a local business how it came to their attention you may be able to confirm that the “free” was a large part of the deal.

      The I tracked the Elocal back thr’ the companies office etc. and after going thr’ various directors etc I found an “Edward Brian DAY” who looks like he owns the company that owns the company etc etc. and he signs petitions hosted by nzcpr.com.

      This site hosts this “Constitutional Reform – join our campaign to oppose a new Treaty-based Constitution ”
      and the site is supposedly founded and run by “Dr Muriel Newman is the founder and Director of the New Zealand Centre for Political Research.” ex Actoid.

      So I suppose the questions are:
      Who funds the Elocal site
      Who funds Muriel Newman’s site – it is supposedly funded by donations but that is a pretty wide statement. Maybe they get one or two large donations from some where.

      So I guess the killer questions to ask the local businesses is “Do you know you are supporting Muriel Newman and ACT?

  27. Tim 27
    11 June 2013 at 3:56 pm

    Wait…. wait… I feel a Morrisey Breen interlude coming on.
    That nicest man on Earth has (once again hooked up with the Irish sage – Her, once accused of plagiarism who took a break in the hope that a return would be seen through a red filter, rather than the Blue one we’re accustomed to)

    Christ! Err Her Err Her – no – can’t frikken stand it any longer. I suspect (judging by the wee her err her err) indicatetes a Farrar muppet about to pop up seeking the credibility of the masses.

    • Morrissey 27.1
      11 June 2013 at 8:04 pm

      I heard it too, Tim, and will be posting my thoughts on the grievous (as usual) “Pre-show” segment. I missed everything after 4 o’clock, but I am sure it was as awful as I suspect it was.

      Perhaps the low point of the day, however, came at about 1:30, when Jim Mora introduced the utterly useless Nicky Pellegrino as “the celebrated novelist.”

  28. gobsmacked 28
    11 June 2013 at 4:45 pm

    Labour leadership stupidity … part 378

    https://twitter.com/oneforthedr/status/344308204194377728

    But remember, the real problem is the likes of us (“corporate box? I can barely afford a telly”) not all working harder for a Labour victory. Coz, you know, they totally deserve it.

    • McFlock 28.1
      11 June 2013 at 4:56 pm

      That is a stupid move on his part.
      It would be interesting to see what sort of process such gifts should be declared/vetted through the various parties, too.

      • Colonial Viper 28.1.1
        11 June 2013 at 5:23 pm

        Why shouldn’t a politician be allowed to have a taste of the high life, as a just reward for all that hard work and self sacrifice they perform on behalf of the public? Especially as an Opposition MP’s salary is pretty minimal by real standards and these people are real leaders who can get far better paying jobs in the private sector if that was their motivation.

        Talk about the politics of envy you lefties.

        Anyhows, corporates have a real business need to forge ties with all different political parties, it helps reduce the material risk of important and profitable business arrangements with Government being arbitrarily undone.

    • karol 28.2
      11 June 2013 at 5:19 pm

      Today, Shearer had a well written speech to read in the urgent debate on Dunne’s resignation, but oh my, the over-emphasised, shouty speech full of hesitancies.

      • mac1 28.2.1
        11 June 2013 at 7:39 pm

        Missed Shearer’s beginning with a phone call but saw the rest, and enjoyed the speech- one hesitancy worth remarking on and picked up by the opposition benches. But I liked the glare and the retort he gave to an interjection “Woken up, have you?”

        His content was good and I note that Key did not defend his actions but left it to English.

        Labour kept to one theme- that this government and its ugly programme is kept in office by two minor parties of one MP each who are involved with money in brown paper bags or are so untrustworthy that they cannot be left on an intelligence committee.

        Key was dreadful to watch at question time, and is allowed far too much room by the Speaker to put in, almost for him obligatory, digs at the opposition along ‘You did it, too” lines.

        • karol 28.2.1.1
          11 June 2013 at 7:51 pm

          The “woken up have you?” and the quality of the speech writing were the bright points. But listening to it, rather than watching, I found somewhat painful. He is still no where near good enough for a party leader, and just doesn’t spark..

          I caught a bit of Cunliffe speaking on the immigration Bill just before the dinner break – it was excellent as usual, and much more front bench quality than what Shearer is coming up with.

          Banks was more painful in his points of order. He tried to divert from Shearer’s comments about Key’s support partners (including Banks facing court) in quite a nasty way. Banks comments about Shearer’s NY “money laundering account” were wide of the mark, and in no way equivalent to the funding issues and corporate cronyism Banks is associated with.

          Shearer’s bank account is not a good look for a labour movement party leader, but there’s been no evidence of money laundering.

          • karol 28.2.1.1.1
            11 June 2013 at 9:06 pm

            OK, It seems that when they returned from dinner, Maggie Barry managed to get a point of order calling for the vote. What a disgrace that Unite Future had a vote.

            But Cunliffe was just warming up when he was interrupted: on the immigration Bill aiming to prevent mass arrivals of “boat people” – Cunliffe calls it a distraction from a government teetierng on the brink: a government that is trashing people’s rights etc.

  29. freedom 29
    11 June 2013 at 6:01 pm

    Funniest moment in Parliament today had to be Carter thrice referring to Winston Peters as the Prime Minister.

    Runner up today undoubtedly when English ‘forgot’ how many jobs National promised to deliver by 2014

  30. lprent 30
    11 June 2013 at 11:55 pm

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