Open mike 12/02/2023

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, February 12th, 2023 - 41 comments
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41 comments on “Open mike 12/02/2023 ”

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  1. Jenny are we there yet 1
    12 February 2023 at 8:19 am

    We live in a great country.

    I think we need to double and treble or even quadruple our support for this wonderful initiative now that the need is greater.

    We live in a great country. The New Zealander/ New Zealanders responsible for this initiative deserve an award.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/131198924/nzlinked-school-in-turkey-helping-people-recover-from-the-devastating-quakes

  2. bwaghorn 2
    12 February 2023 at 8:33 am

    https://youtu.be/sFBOQzSk14c

    Monty python predicted the future.

    I'm with John Cleese on this one

    • weka 2.1
      12 February 2023 at 10:18 am

      Youtube will embed as a clear link. If you put it in the link tags, it will appear as a link instead. In which case you need to explain what you mean because it won't be visible and most people won't click through. Feel free to repost the link as a clear link

      • bwaghorn 2.1.1
        12 February 2023 at 11:04 am

        OK probably beyond my abilities as what you've said sounds like a forgien language to me,

        It's a skit about a man wanting to be called a woman and wanting to have baby.

        It ends with Cleese pointing out that it's the man's lack of grip on reality that is the problem

        • joe90 2.1.1.1
          12 February 2023 at 11:26 am

          Post the link into your address bar.

          Hit play and it becomes

          Post

          in your comment.

        • arkie 2.1.1.2
          12 February 2023 at 11:48 am

          The character, Reg, becomes more accepting later in the film:

          REG: I now propose that all seven of these ex-brothers be now entered in the minutes as probationary martyrs to the cause.

          LORETTA: I second that, Reg.

          REG: Thank you, Loretta. On the nod. Siblings!

          and:

          https://shkspr.mobi/blog/2020/03/the-evolution-of-reg/

        • logie97 2.1.1.3
          12 February 2023 at 9:01 pm

          That sketch on the terraces is so apt for these times. I am sure that the fundamentalist right in the USA would love to use it in their promotions. However, because they would be giving exposure to "The Life of Brian" (otherwise banned from viewing amongst their masses) they would have to compromise. Interesting dilemma for them.

          • bwaghorn 2.1.1.3.1
            12 February 2023 at 9:10 pm

            It's an amazing bit of prediction from Monty python, the whole thing has become a farce, apparently its infiltrating womans surfing now.

  3. joe90 3
    12 February 2023 at 9:47 am

    Libertarianism unhinged.

  4. Visubversa 4
    12 February 2023 at 10:24 am

    Not just "men in women's prisons" – but "the worst kind of men in women's prisons".

    Not our crimes!

    "The issue of rapists identifying as women is not hypothetical. The ONS has published Crown Prosecution Service data for England and Wales. Rape is classified as a male crime in UK law, and females can only be charged with rape as an accomplice. Documented instances of females being charged with rape as an accomplice are rare. Yet, between 2012 and 2018, this data shows that the proportion of rape defendants classified as women varied between 1.2 per cent and 1.8 per cent. During this seven-year period, 436 individuals prosecuted for rape were recorded as women."

    https://www.parliament.scot/chamber-and-committees/committees/current-and-previous-committees/session-6-citizen-participation-and-public-petitions-committee/correspondence/2021/pe1876_h-professor-alice-sullivan-submission-of-27-august-2021

    • weka 4.1
      12 February 2023 at 10:48 am

      would be interesting to know if rape crimes that involve women as accomplices are more likely to get to trial.

      • Visubversa 4.1.1
        12 February 2023 at 11:52 am

        Well, if the above cases went to trial – that is 436 times that a raped woman has to stand up in court and refer to her rapist as "she" – as in "and then she raped me with her penis". As above – in those jurisdictions, the crime of rape is defined as an unlawful act involving a penis.

        • weka 4.1.1.1
          12 February 2023 at 12:11 pm

          In the UK at least, the judges' handbook has been revised to not require women to use the self ID pronouns for sexual and violent offences cases. Don't know how that is playing out in real life.

          • Visubversa 4.1.1.1.1
            12 February 2023 at 12:21 pm

            Thanks – that is good to know. And I gather that the Police have also been told to report reality rather than fantasy these days.

        • Ghostwhowalksnz 4.1.1.2
          12 February 2023 at 12:36 pm

          Does UK law require rape only with a penis, or does other methods apply ?

          NZ law has two specific types of sexual violation, both with same maximum sentence as the male only rape.

          In New Zealand law, the word “rape” is restricted to cases of a male penetrating a female’s vagina with his penis. However, under the law this is just one of two types of the crime of “sexual violation”. The other type – “unlawful sexual connection” – covers all the other types of sexual assault described above, and it has the same maximum penalty (20 years’ jail) as cases of “rape” of a female by a male.

          So its splitting hairs really, as the crime of sexual violation isnt restricted to men only or penis only.

          link
          https://communitylaw.org.nz/community-law-manual/chapter-8-gender-and-sexuality/sexual-orientation-and-your-rights/rape-sexual-assault-and-family-domestic-violence/

          • weka 4.1.1.2.1
            12 February 2023 at 2:12 pm

            are you suggesting that there shouldn't be a differentiation in law between rape and other forms of sexual assault? Why?

    • tWiggle 4.2
      12 February 2023 at 12:40 pm

      Visubversa, I guess you are fanning the flames under the issue of housing transgender people guilty of sexual assault, by jumping on UK rape stats to prove rape is a penis-based crime.

      I don't feel stirring up outrage over UK judicial rape processes is a useful cranking of this debate, given the actual stats and policies regarding transgender prisoners in Scotland.

      BBC backgrounder on Scotland's transgender prison row

      In Scotland, there are 4 transgender women and 8 transgender men in a prison population of under 3,800. A safety plan is drawn up for each transgender person. Scotland has amended its policies so that transgender persons on remand will initially go to a holding facility based on their pre-transition sex.

      Maybe it's time to reduce focus on this transgender people in prison issue, especially as it is yet to impact us in NZ, with our own, differently-run judicial system. Interesting, around a quarter of people in prison in NZ were sentenced with sexual assault as their most serious crime.

      https://www.corrections.govt.nz/resources/statistics/quarterly_prison_statistics/prison_stats_march_2022

      • tWiggle 4.2.1
        12 February 2023 at 12:47 pm

        Sorry, Scottish prison population is 7500.

      • Visubversa 4.2.2
        12 February 2023 at 1:42 pm

        We have "Pandora Electra" in Springhill woman's prison following his violent attack on 3 people. Fortunately Toko Shane "Ashley" Winter is in Paremoremo where he belongs for the sadistic torture and murder of a young woman. One man in a woman's prison is one too many.

      • weka 4.2.3
        12 February 2023 at 1:43 pm

        Rape is a penis based crime. In the UK afaik rape is defined in law as a crime committed by men. In NZ the law has been made gender neutral,

        I don't feel stirring up outrage over UK judicial rape processes is a useful cranking of this debate, given the actual stats and policies regarding transgender prisoners in Scotland.

        How many women have been raped by males self IDing into women's prisons? How many in the UK? How many in NZ? What makes you think this isn't already an issue in NZ? What number of women being raped by male prisoners is an acceptable number?

        I'm asking these questions because while I completely agree that there should be more focus on how to solve the issues for trans people in terms of prisons (eg of violence against trans people in prisons), sacrificing women is not ok in arguments or in fact. And that is what has happened already, so it's understandable that women are fucked off and pushing back hard.

        As I've said, if No Debate hadn't been done and successful, the left would have been debating how to resolve the issues for trans people and women. Or women and trans people.

        • weka 4.2.3.1
          12 February 2023 at 1:47 pm

          NZ Crimes Act,

          Sexual violation defined

          (1)

          Sexual violation is the act of a person who—

          (a)

          rapes another person; or

          (b)

          has unlawful sexual connection with another person.

          (2)

          Person A rapes person B if person A has sexual connection with person B, effected by the penetration of person B’s genitalia by person A’s penis,—

          (a)

          without person B’s consent to the connection; and

          (b)

          without believing on reasonable grounds that person B consents to the connection.

          (3)

          Person A has unlawful sexual connection with person B if person A has sexual connection with person B—

          (a)

          without person B’s consent to the connection; and

          (b)

          without believing on reasonable grounds that person B consents to the connection.

          https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1961/0043/latest/whole.html#DLM329051

          What that means is that there are two kinds of sexual assault crimes, and rape is defined as being by someone with a penis. The gender neutrality here is presumably to cover males who self ID as not men. Maybe it's also to cover post-surgical TM, I don't know how possible rape is for them.

          • Craig H 4.2.3.1.1
            12 February 2023 at 9:40 pm

            Rape is a subset of the crime of sexual violation, and the other subset (everything else) of unlawful sexual connection is there to cover a wide range of other things like using bottles, broom handles, hands, fingers, tongues etc. Sexual connection is defined in the Interpretation section of the Crimes Act as:

            sexual connection means—

            (a) connection effected by the introduction into the genitalia or anus of one person, otherwise than for genuine medical purposes, of—

            (i) a part of the body of another person; or

            (ii) an object held or manipulated by another person; or

            (b) connection between the mouth or tongue of one person and a part of another person’s genitalia or anus; or

            (c) the continuation of connection of a kind described in paragraph (a) or paragraph (b).

        • Liberty Belle 4.2.3.3
          12 February 2023 at 2:09 pm

          "Rape is a penis based crime. "

          "How many women have been raped by males self IDing into women's prisons?"

          "The United Kingdom Ministry of Justice (MoJ) has revealed that inmates who identify as transgender are responsible for a rate of sexual attacks that is exponentially higher than their proportion of the population of women’s jails and prisons. In response to a question that former Labour Party General Secretary Baroness McDonagh put before Parliament, the MoJ has acknowledged that, “Since 2010, out of the 124 sexual assaults that occurred in the female estate a total of seven of those were sexual assaults against females in custody perpetrated by transgender individuals.”

          ‘Transgender’ Inmates Sexually Assault, Rape Female Inmates at a Shocking Rate, Ministry of Justice Reveals | Women Are Human

          But it's possibly even worse (same source):

          "The percentage could be higher, as the statistics of transgender inmates with Gender Recognition Certificates are included with female inmates’ statistics."

        • tWiggle 4.2.3.4
          12 February 2023 at 5:42 pm

          weka, I guess I mention the cranking up bit because I've seen a lot of trans and ‘terf’ posts in the last month here with !!! vibes, shocking headlines, etc.

          Just a tiny bit of looking online after your post sent me to the UK Fair Play for Women site.

          https://fairplayforwomen.com/campaigns/prisons/

          This site provided a lot of background information as part the extensive campaign they've run on transgender issues in womens' prisons since 2017, including female-only safe spaces, and trans sexual violence against females.

          They frame it well, and now I can see why Scottish trans people in womens' prisons were so controversial after their self-id legislation passed. The Scottish trans prison population is low, but there are much greater numbers in England/Wales, where id-ing as trans, even if still in male prisons, earns shower-alone privileges, etc.

          I guess I generally prefer information packaged in fact form, like this. A shock! horror! outrage presentation alone just confuses me about the topic under debate, if it's new to me. On the other hand, the image of the anti-'terf' banner on a trans float at a Dresden fair is a great example of where shock IS of value in informing me.

          • weka 4.2.3.4.1
            12 February 2023 at 8:33 pm

            thanks for taking the time to explain that tWiggle. It's very useful to understand how people come across and process information differently especially in fraught debates like this.

            One of the things happening is that some women are really sick of how much energy it's taking to get the issues acknowledged, let alone addressed. Women lost so much ground to quickly. It affects others too, and women have born the brunt of it. There's often a progression of women being less abrupt, and then realising that the situation warrants strong words, repeatedly.

          • Molly 4.2.3.4.2
            12 February 2023 at 9:39 pm

            There's been a bit of difficulty getting accurate information out of Department of Corrections.

            I don't have the time now, but if you have the interest then two places you can start to find statistics and policies etc are on:

            Department of Corrections – Selected OIA responses

            FYI – a website tracking submitted OIA's

            There is a built in data failure in collecting statistics at present, which also makes accurate figures hard to ascertain.

            As weka has mentioned, there are several recent reports of men convicted of violent crimes being transferred to the women's prison estate in Aotearoa. It would be interesting to see what the assessment process criteria is. (Perhaps another OIA.)

            In 2019 there was a reported sexual assault by a man in the women's prison estate. (There has also been a sexual assault conviction, but at a different prison. So, it will require another OIA to determine if that conviction relates to the investigation, and the prisoner was transferred before conviction.)

            The fundamental question is whether the reasons for establishing a separate women's prison estate still exist, and whether they are of value.

            If the answer is Yes – which I believe it is – then the boundaries of single-SEX should be maintained.

  5. joe90 5
    12 February 2023 at 12:37 pm

    Marvelous.

    /

    Four dead seals have tested positive for bird flu in Scotland, as the number of cases of highly pathogenic avian flu in mammals continues to grow globally with experts warning of “a step-change” in its spread.

    The largest ever bird flu outbreak had already spilled over into otters and foxes in the UK, with about 70 mammals having tested positive for the (HPAI) H5N1 virus. The seal carcasses were sent for screening last year and the results have come back positive, according to the Scottish Marine Animal Strandings Scheme (SMASS).

    “Three out of the four harbour seals and one of the two grey seals from 2021 and early 2022 tested positive for HPAIV H5N1,” said SMASS in a statement. The animals were found in Aberdeenshire, Highlands, Fife and Orkney. “We also want to check our more recent cetacean cases for evidence of spillover,” it said.

    As well as ripping through wild bird populations around the world, H5N1 has been found in dolphins, domestic cats, leopards and grizzly bears. Earlier this week the Peruvian government said nearly 580 sea lions had died from it in seven protected marine areas.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/feb/10/four-dead-seals-test-positive-bird-flu-scotland-aoe

    What appears to be mammal-to-mammal transmission of highly pathogenic avian influenza (HPAI) A(H5N1) on a mink farm in Spain has caught the attention of infectious disease epidemiologists around the world.

    A paper published in Eurosurveillance last monthopens in a new tab or window detailed an H5N1 outbreak among farmed minks in the Galicia region of Spain in October 2022. Montserrat Agüero, of Spain's agricultural ministry, and colleagues suspected that transmission occurred between the animals based on "the increasing number of infected animals identified after the confirmation of the disease, and the progression of the infection from the initially affected area to the entire holding."

    While none of the farm workers were infected, experts said these are the conditions that can ignite a deadly H5N1 pandemic in humans.

    https://www.medpagetoday.com/special-reports/features/103000 ( https://archive.li/oyd67 )

  6. observer 6
    12 February 2023 at 3:04 pm

    Byron Clark is a brave man and he deserves our thanks. This Stuff column is a must-read for anyone who doubts or downplays the danger from the far right:

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300801726/notes-in-the-letterbox-being-followed-and-death-threats-life-as-a-leading-altright-researcher

    • AB 6.1
      12 February 2023 at 3:38 pm

      Thanks – good link. Would be interesting to know how much cross-fertilisation there is between the far right and the mainstream right – whether it's a permeable membrane through which ideas, people and money can flow. That's another and probably more difficult research project.

    • corey 6.2
      12 February 2023 at 8:52 pm

      I like Byron I've known him for years. He has some great insights on the extremism on the right but will deny left wing extremism exists

      Im a mixed race gay working class lefty and I'm over the moon labour dropped hate speech legislation (Byron is very upset) because we've seen the left and the right globally, use strengthened hate speech laws to threaten, harass and intimidate people they disagree with

      Say something critical of gender theory? Expect a knock on you door from the cops. Mock and humiliate religion? Expect a knock on your door.

      Considering the radical elements of the identitarian left is constantly updating and changing what it considers transphobic, racist, homophobic etc etc say something that was progressive four years ago but someone decided wasn't, expect a knock at your door.

      If you say trans women are women but not biologically women, expect a knock at your door.

      If you say you're gay which means you're not attracted to people with vaginas ie trans men, expect a knock at your door.

      They would use this to shout down, frighten, threaten and ruin the lives of everyday people. Go on Twitter and tell me they won't do it.

      There were many radical extremist leftys at that parliament protest, you know the type the conspiratorial west= bad anti Jewish pro gun prepper tanky types

      Radicalism is always so God damn toxic and ugly.

      I wish Byron all the best and anyone who threatens him is a scum bag, I hope he does some research into on the online radicalism of the other side because as a lefty, those people make us look bad, the extreme right are the most immediate threat but the slow cooking percolating radicalism of online weirdos of the left is deeply concerning

  7. tWiggle 7
    12 February 2023 at 7:04 pm

    In my opinion, an extreme view publicised will drag a part of mainstream society with it, over time. I'm thinking of the 'burn the bra' movement 50 years ago. Of course, these days social media speeds up the transmission of memorable social memes by 100 or 1000 times. What's more, a meme can rapidly infect a local group. In NZ, for example, entire small rural communities seemed particularly vulnerable to anti-vax and anti-Jacinda messaging.

    • Graeme 7.1
      12 February 2023 at 7:48 pm

      In NZ, for example, entire small rural communities seemed particularly vulnerable to anti-vax and anti-Jacinda messaging.

      The seeds for that were carefully sown over a long period, "Labour hates farmers" and "they're giving the water to the Marris" (both go back 10 years at least)

      It doesn't take much, covid and a few perceived examples of their fears in legislation and it's full on cookerville.

      • pat 7.1.1
        12 February 2023 at 8:38 pm

        Its no surprise, the history of NZ politics has always had the Labour Party as the antithesis of farmers interests….labour v capital, as it ever was.

        It is nothing new and isnt likely to change…..the problem is the farming community feels abandoned by their own representatives and appear to have no alternative, which is ironic as the working class are in the same position with Labour.

        • Visubversa 7.1.1.1
          12 February 2023 at 9:09 pm

          Yes, the farmers seem to still be mourning the demise of the Supplementary Minimum Price handouts.

          I was working in the Banking industry at the time, and winter was a good time to visit rural branches as they were really quiet because all the farming customers were off overseas on holidays thanks to the SMP payouts.

          • pat 7.1.1.1.1
            12 February 2023 at 9:15 pm

            many are overseas midwinter now without SMPs….but the halving of farm values in the eighties still resonates….like all occupations there are those that are competent and deserve the success they have earned and there are those that will likely lose that which was inherited ….and there are those that have no idea how fortunate they are and moan and have their hand out at every opportunity…such are folk.

          • Graeme 7.1.1.1.2
            12 February 2023 at 10:18 pm

            Yeah, the communist Labour Government put farmers out of business by getting rid of the SMPs, which were the closest this country has come to communism.

            It can take a bit to walk them through that thought.

      • tWiggle 7.1.2
        12 February 2023 at 9:15 pm

        Does that sort of messaging work with small, predominantly Māori areas which also went anti-vax? Social media is pernicious in its rapid evolution of a whole set of messages, each slightly different, which are thrown into the marketplace. By Darwinian selection, a particular one adapts to suit a small niche.

        I became aware of this when commissioning a small social media campaign to recruit volunteers. Scared me properly at its immediate success. Like fishing with one of those multi- hook lines dragging for miles, where you used a single hook before.

  8. Jenny are we there yet 8
    13 February 2023 at 6:13 am

    The conspiracy theorists are at it again.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/the-whole-truth/300802897/the-whole-truth-no-cloud-seeding-isnt-causing-all-this-awful-weather

    what is it that links all these conspiracies together?

    What is the common theme?

    Why are conspiracy theories favoured by the Right and Far Right?

    Money

    To save lives during the pandemic, to limit CO2 pollution requires government regulation of business. Something the Right cannot abide. Anything that halts or slows the flow of profit is a cause for them to scream bloody murder

    For the love of money is the root of all of evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

    Timothy 6:10