Why is the BBC permitted, day after day after day, to pump out programming which actively promotes a political programme far to the right of where the British population actually stand? With the continual over-representation of nutty right wing groups like the Taxpayers’ Alliance and the Henry Jackson Society, while left wing groups of much larger membership such as Stop the War are completely ignored. Why low tax campaigners but no invitation ever to groups like Black Triangle who represent claimants interests? Not to mention the routine ignoring of the SNP, parliament’s third largest party.”
This is why State owned media is a bad idea. Even an organisation set up to attempt to be unbiased like the BBC gets accused of bias by people and then they start discussing his it can become more “unbiased”. This is usually code for ‘agree with my side more.
No. That’s why state-funded media is essential. Because it’s the only organisation that will ever be under any meaningful obligation to be impartial.
It’s that fact that makes the debate Ed started even possible. Nobody expects state-funded media to do a perfect job, but at least the obligation is there.
I agree.
We just have to deal with the bias of the senior executives at RNZ.
Why so many Taxpayers’ Union New Zealand Initiative stories?
Why the acceptance of neoliberal premises on economics?
Why the framing of stories from a right wing agenda?
Fortunately we now have alternative news sources to show the lies the mainstream runs.
@Ed +1 You can add to your list…
Why financial updates all through out the day, but no workers news?
Why is it RNZ have nearly all domestic and international financial/economic analysis done by bank economist?…economists who have a ideology that is based on selling and profiting from debt.
State-funded media doesn’t have to be one single entity that might dominate the media landscape. Nor does it have to mean an entity where the Board & Chairman are appointed by the Government of the day. Nor does it have to mean an entity with strict hierarchical structure with strict managerial and editorial over sight where decisions by others are controlled and overruled by superiors all the way to the top. And it also doesn’t have to mean a Charter that demands financial/operational return AKA profit and dividends (to the Government).
Rather than having a one-size-fits-all entity or set-up why not reflect our society’s diversity and pluralism and fund that adequately? Media should cater for all citizens and inform the people so that they can make their own judgements if they wish …
Riiight – and that wretched chip wrapper The Herald never interferes politically at the editorial level? The state model is sound – the only commercial enterprise that even approaches the BBC or Al Jazeera for quality is Reuters.
Gosman: talking the obvious unaccountability of private news organisations you have guaranteed politically based interference in what the populace receives and no one can say a word.
Talking the obvious accountability of state news organisations you have at least the formal capacity for the populace to holler like hell if/when there is the appearance or fact of political interference.
I see you’re still exercising risibly twisted, absolutist zealotry; oligarchs = good while the people = bad.
Sure but again independent journalists also have their own bias.
I try to read everything from a multitude of sources. I read The Standard as much as I read Kiwiblog (though I’d never lower myself to comment there). I read the New Yorker, The Atlantic, Fox News, BBC, NYT, Washington Post, The Listener, AJZ, CNN, NBR , the list goes on and on.
It gets fucking tiring but I’m a news junkie. Then there’s the science mags and the books….it’s a wonder I manage to have job and raise a child while maintaining an alcohol habit.
Sure but again independent journalists also have their own bias.
And there’s nothing that we can or should do about that – except demand that they provide proof and not just ‘reckons’ as we get from so many talking heads in the private sector.
State-ownership, in my view, ought to mean that it is owned and managed by the state on behalf of all citizens and it has a (social) mandate to deliver (a service or product) for the public good, not for (financial) profit to the owners. This doesn’t make it immune from political meddling but any (political) benefits may be harder to obtain (and hide from public view) as they tend to be more indirect (arm’s length influence and control). State-owned media have a fundamentally different mandate and governance compared to privately-owned media unless they’re run strictly as a business in the common sense in which case it is an easy step for National & ACT to sell/privatise.
State owned media is no less biased than private media. The difference is our taxes don’t fund private media. State run media is totally surplus to requirements in a modern society.
Sure a state can run a lame media – Pravda or RT – but not all states do.
What’s wrong with the MSM is not state interference, but commercial interference. Murdoch etc. The useless ZB network. Fox.
The citizen has no comeback against their shit short of shutting them down. When you see the crap NZ TV has become it’s looking like a pretty good option.
Who said anything about state propaganda? Can you provide an example of “state propaganda” on TVNZ or RNZ. Be specific: quote the actual article in question and explain how it qualifies.
“What’s wrong with the MSM is not state interference, but commercial interference. ”
Commercial interference is paid for by commercial interests. State interference (and it is endemic in state media) is paid for by tax payers. Stop it all.
That isn’t what you claimed. You claimed them as an example of “state propaganda”. So you’ve now abandoned that claim and are claiming bias.
But once again, you’ve failed to provide any examples of this bias, although perhaps you mean Matthew Hooton.
I expect you’ll cite John Campbell as an example, but then you’d have to show how Checkpoint exhibits a “state” bias, as opposed to John Campbell’s. And if your only objection is that individual hosts bring their own biases to the mix, RNZ is doing no more or less than whoever it is that employs Hoskings et al, and RNZ has the advantage of a wider spectrum of views.
Perhaps it’s that advantage that you don’t like. The very idea that the state might provide something more useful (and popular) than the “free” “market”.
Unless you can link to a specific example of “state propaganda”, that is. Tumbleweeds?
“You claimed them as an example of “state propaganda”.”
Where?
“So you’ve now abandoned that claim and are claiming bias.”
Well when the Minster of Broadcasting has a clandestine meeting with a senior RNZ executive, that both try to hide, I’d say that was a pretty good example of at least an attempt at state influence. Of course you support the Greens, so you are in bed with liars and cheats.
Whereas I’m happy to provide it on my “dime”, and since at the last count far more people support my position (even the Trashional Party funds RNZ when in government) than yours, I’m pretty sure we can do without your petty contribution. Tell you what, we’ll fund the things we like and you can contribute to David Seymour’s taxpayer funded trough, eh.
On this issue, I’m also in bed with the NZLP, NZF and National. We’re having a great time while you’re in line to practise necrophilia with Ayn Rand, and Don Brash took your place in the queue 😉
On what issue? The welfare cheat? The MP who worked for war criminals while claiming to be bringing them to justice? The MP who has gone on to head an organisation who are bullying people for donations?
The continued funding of RNZ. Perhaps if you and Don pooled your resources you could afford a couple of clones of Ayn, and they could humiliate and despise you just like the original.
In case you missed it, the ‘liars and cheats’ I was referring to were the Greens. Here, you’ll get the idea if you read my comment “Of course you support the Greens, so you are in bed with liars and cheats.”/open-mike-12-05-2018/#comment-1483690
You provided your own example. Do you seriously want me to post examples of state media propaganda from China, Russia, etc etc? If you don’t think it can happen here, perhaps you missed the meeting between Clare Curran and Carol Hirschfeld?
I don’t click on the Herald’s links – following others in boycotting it since its ghastly rubbish a couple of weeks back,
The Herald is rapidly becoming an echo chamber for Farrar and his crazed right wing friends.
You mentioned “Red Radio”, aka RNZ. Provide a specific example of an RNZ article that constitutes “state propaganda”.
You freely admit “commercial interference” in commercial radio. You allege that similar interference, specifically “state propaganda” exists in local state owned media, and cite RNZ as an example.
Yet you can’t point to a single article to illustrate your argument. Don’t get me wrong, I know you’re full of shit, but you might at least make some flailing attempt to justify your conspiracist delusions.
“Provide a specific example of an RNZ article that constitutes “state propaganda”.”
All bias on red radio represents state propaganda. Note, not government propaganda. State propaganda. Now John Campbell is biased, and I have no problem with that on private media, but not on my dime.
“You allege that similar interference, specifically “state propaganda” exists in local state owned media…”
No, never said ‘local’.
“and cite RNZ as an example.”
I asked you a question about Red Radio and provided evidence of at the very least interference – Curran’s meeting with Hirschfeld.
But wait, there’s more:
“When Metiria Turei announced she was stepping down from Parliament, Radio NZ’s Checkpoint host John Campbell was a paragon of empathy and compassion, writes Liam Hehir.”
“Like many news agencies, Radio NZ has a mild centre-left bias. If you don’t believe it, my guess would be that you probably have a centre-left disposition yourself.” https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/99720488/radio-new-zealand-should-appoint-its-own-ombudsman
“Matthew Hooton broadcasts state propaganda. Good to know ”
No, he doesn’t broadcast it, but he participates in it. You see, Blokey, with private broadcasters we can discern the bias and we’re not paying for it. With public broadcasting we’re getting propaganda and paying for it. No thanks.
Explain it yourself, you rude prick. You don’t get to make demands: you get to provide some supporting evidence for your assertions of “propaganda”. Put up or shut up.
Advertisers? Oh, that’s o.k. then as that would make private broadcasters immune from political meddling because political parties and their lobbyists never take out ads in MSM, never ever. And private broadcasters only broadcast direct messages on behalf of their advertisers, like shampoo manufacturers. That’s why all talkback shows, for example, are about shampoo and other commodities and never about politics. I mean, I can tell when an ad is about shampoo although sometimes it is hard to discern at first because it could also be a lipstick ad …
Talking of lipstick, do you know whether Mike Hosking and Simon Bridges use the same brand of hair gel, by any chance?
One last question, who’s paying the advertisers?
And one very last question, I promise, are advertising and marketing expenses tax deductible in NZ?
“…because political parties and their lobbyists never take out ads in MSM, never ever.”
Of course they do. That’s the point…they are the ones paying, not the taxpayer.
“And private broadcasters only broadcast direct messages on behalf of their advertisers, like shampoo manufacturers.”
Of course not. They broadcast their opinion. How many awards did Newstalk ZB receive at the recent Radio Awards?
You seem to believe private commercial interests having opinions and broadcasting them is bad. It isn’t. What is bad is the government owning the medium for broadcasting ideas.
“One last question, who’s paying the advertisers?”
People who voluntarily buy their products.
“And one very last question, I promise, are advertising and marketing expenses tax deductible in NZ?”
Of course. They are a cost of deriving assessable income.
So, private broadcasts are full of political and other direct and indirect advertising but that’s o.k. because the consumers pay for it; the consumers who are also the Taxpayers.
The only accountability and transparency, if any, is to the private owners of the station; the consumers/Taxpayers will have no idea who’s influencing them.
As long as the funding does not come directly from the Taxpayers any opinion or influence that the private broadcaster wants to send out for whatever reason and on whomever’s behalf without either the listeners or consumers/Taxpayers fully in the know is perfectly fine.
All this is perfectly acceptable because consumers voluntarily buy (or not) the products of the advertisers in a free-market exchange. The commercial guys are so much more credit-worthy than politicians, aren’t they? [pun intended]
You do know the saying that if you don’t know what the product is … ?
All media carries bias. I’m fine with that as long as it is declared and I’m not paying for it. The government has no business in media, none. It is a risky and expensive business for little or no benefit. And I don’t trust government’s of any stripe to declare their bias and keep far away from propaganda.
As opposed to rigorously professional outfits like Fox News and MSNBC? You don’t have a clue.
Gosman, your comments are often ignorant and ill judged, but whatever you say this morning, no matter how ignorant and ill judged, will not be worse than what you inflicted on us a few days ago….
Similarly, Ed, I note that David Farrar and Jordan Williams’s ludicrous Taxpayers’ Union and the right wing New Zealand Initiative often set the agenda for “news” on both main TV channels, and on Radio New Zealand. The researchers and analysts of the universities and the unions, by contrast, are rarely given much consideration.
names are ( couldnt click and paste ,grrr)
Lisa Scott and Ian Telfer
Jo Mccarrol and Scott Campbell
max Ritchie and Niki Bezzant
Rosemary Macleod and Peter Fa’afui
garry Moore and Miriama Aoake
cas carter and Steve Mccabe
Jock Anderson and Mai Chen
Verity Johnson and Simon Pound
Peter Vial and Paula Penfold
Clare de Lore and Alan Blackman
Ella Henry and John Barnett
Micheal Moynahan and Penny Ashton
Minhingarangi Forbes Sam Johnson
Lynda Hallinan and Chris Clarke
Alexia Russel and Mike Rehu
Mike Williams and Michelle Boag
Bernard Hickey and jenny Moreton
neil Miller Alison Mau
Chris Waikira and Janet Wilson
Lisa Scott and Andrew Hoggard
Gary McCormick and Lizzie Marvelly
Michelle A’ court Peter Fa’aifu
Catherine Robertson and Peter Milne
Nadine Higgins and Matt Nippert
Thats over a months worth and quite a variety. Sometimes certain names are more memorable while a lot of the above arent too well known ( arent yet famous for being famous)
[1] vacuous; [2] supporter of Israeli government; [3] close links to National Party; [4] spouse of ex-National Party MP; [5] regularly expresses strident right wing views; [6];
Lisa Scott [1] and Ian Telfer
Jo Mccarrol and Scott Campbell [3]
max Ritchie [5] and Niki Bezzant
Rosemary Macleod [5] and Peter Fa’afui
garry Moore and Miriama Aoake
cas carter [1] and Steve Mccabe
Jock Anderson [5] and Mai Chen
Verity Johnson and Simon Pound
Peter Vial and Paula Penfold
Clare de Lore[4] and Alan Blackman [1]
Ella Henry [1] and John Barnett [2]
Micheal Moynahan and Penny Ashton
Minhingarangi Forbes and Sam Johnson [3]
Lynda Hallinan and Chris Clarke [1]
Alexia Russel and Mike Rehu
Mike Williams and Michelle Boag [1], [2], [3], [4], [5]
Bernard Hickey and jenny Moreton
Neil Miller [5] and Alison Mau
Chris Wikaira [2], [3] and Janet Wilson [5]
Lisa Scott [1] and Andrew Hoggard [1], [3], [5]
Gary McCormick and Lizzie Marvelly
Michelle A’ court Peter Fa’aifu
Catherine Robertson and Peter Milne
Nadine Higgins and Matt Nippert
Really? An ACT party member today?
Stephen was certainly an ACT MP from 1999 until 2005.
However he then joined the National Party and was on the National List in 2008. He has taken no active part in politics since then as far as I can see so, although he may still be a member of the National Party I have seen no evidence at all that he went back to ACT.
Do you have any?
When the comment made is in the present tense
“And look at the number of ACT members who get on Mora’s Panel”
one is certainly entitled to expect that you will find current members to nominate. If the best you can discover is someone who was a member a decade ago you are failing.
On your basis I am entitled to state that the Labour party is the arch-proponent of Rogernomics. You will have to agree if you think your own comment is accurate.
Oh dear, Alwyn… more punctilious crap. Franks remains ACT in thought and word whether he is a current member or not. Get your mummy to put you to bed instead of allowing you to post such rubbish. (I am returning a foolish insult you posted against me, just in case it escaped your university-qualified vigilance.)
Ed’s comment is about yet another Craig Murray opinion this time re the BBC. Hence UK related, not NZ; and not about the NZ Taxpayers Union.
The TaxPayers’ Alliance is a right-wing British pressure group and think tank formed in 2004 to campaign for a low tax society. The group, based in London, had about 18,000 registered supporters as of 2008, and claimed to have 55,000 by September 2010.
To go along to get along. The whole Thatcherite revolution was essentially a dumbing down and raising fears, all started with Murdoch lowering the bar and mulching any conflict against wealth. Press bias merely reflects the current elites unwillingness to pull its finger out, having been deluded into believing that the market will save their sorry arises if only they distrust the market of ideas that will save their sorry arises from being burnt to a cinder.
Shocking especially because they used to (and probably still do I expect) make everybody in Britain pay a yearly TV licence for the content which clearly should not be biased!!!
You want one image that shows how compromised the BBC has become.
Look at Jo Coburn’s face as the BBC cut an interview when one of their reporters says MI6 was involved in torture.
The media routinely take their lead from Slater and Farrar. Jim Mora references Farrar every second day, and has him on as a guest regularly. No doubt he’d do the same with Whalefat if he ever relaxed his ideological ban on appearing on “state media.”
Though remembering that it’s helpful to listen to which fear they are playing up. Of course if it’s all right-wing sledging then do what I do, avoid Hooten, Boag, Frank’s, and just pick one right-wing hack, it’s not like there is any depth to their messaging. Farrier is best of the boring fools.
Yeh, I have noticed that Mora has only just contained himself of the Asia peril at our doorstep re; China, lately…I am pretty sure he is going to slip on this one pretty soon.
Are you saying that giving a voice to the disenfranchised and holding power to account is inherently Left Wing?, because I can’t remember Campbell pushing any political ideology…maybe you can refresh me.
Given that David Farrar runs the most widely read blog in New Zealand, it is hardly surprising that media commentators refer to him.
And although Standardnistas won’t like this, David Farrar comes across as reasonably balanced, even if he is a well known supporter of National. It is some of his commenters that are extreme.
He regularly gives credit to the government when he thinks it is due. He is not so one-eyed that he condemns every single action of the government. Likewise he is critical of the opposition from time to time
” David Farrar comes across as reasonably balanced, even if he is a well known supporter of National. It is some of his commenters that are extreme. ”
If one were so inclined and had the ability and the facility, one could invent a persona, append a twitty pseudonym and spew vile hate speech unfettered on a totally un moderated website. It’d be like allowing one’s evil alter to have a ‘real life’ or in some cases ‘lives’.
Farrar allows those “extreme” commenters free reign…he is a despicable person.
Most people here know this….why would you even think it appropriate to try and defend the indefensible?
The scary thing is that I think you really believe this! Or do I hear a dog-whistle?
The fact that those “extreme” commenters are being ‘invited’ by the posts on KB written by DPF and other authors (…) seems to have escaped your thought. All propaganda has and starts with instigators too.
Further, DPF not only provides an inviting and welcoming forum with ample ‘food for thought’ for those “extreme” commenters but also cries that it is too hard to manage, which is just unbelievably pathetic and has a very disingenuous ring to it.
DPF may give token credit to the Government and express token criticism of the Opposition “from time to time” but that’s just pulling the wool over our eyes, isn’t it? Just like Simon Bridges strongly condemned the DP campaign against Clarke Gayford. Yeah, right!
No resignation calls for his disreslect to oyr falken? We would still be hearing about it if Shearer, Cullliffe, Little or Ardern had taken a taxpayer funded flight to Hawaii on hols instead
I”m [sic] not on Twitter very often and I think this shows why. Effectively, I was scrolling down and I saw a tweet that you’re referring to, I noticed it, I accidentally liked it, I got rid of that within literally a second and kept on moving.
Anyway, we now know Mr Bridges reads scrolls through tweets by WO. We also know that Mr Bridges easily lets his guard down when (or better: in spite of) reading tweets by WO – WO is a well-known and respected comedian in National circles and his tweets are often considered ‘funny’. Maybe Mr Bridges was not wearing his hat as Leader of the Opposition but tweeting in ’private capacity’.
He was just scrolling down tweets from WO, as you do, and literally liked it but that doesn’t mean he literally liked it as it is just one of those things you do when scrolling down through tweets from WO, literally.
In National nothing should be taken literally, only aspirationally. A brighter future for all literally means a slightly less dim future for the dimwits (AKA poor, workers, un- and underemployed, beneficiaries, most people) and a much brighter future for the few (AKA rich) but you cannot literally say that. Being on the cusp of something special literally means that you’ve got gas and have to do a fart but just like weeing in the shower you cannot literally say that in a public medium so you make it sound expirationally.
Anything that this Government says or does is literally bad, of course. It goes without saying that the Opposition and particularly the Leader of the Opposition without question and without reading literally poopoos everything from Government. Coincidentally, this comes naturally to National because they literally have no original ideas, which is why they scroll through WO tweets and KB and literally like posts and comments alike; in National they like what they like ad nauseam, literally.
My second share of the day are the words of a great New Zealander, Robin Westenra.
“Ecological and economic collapse in New Zealand
It will be only apparent to those paying attention but New Zealand is collapsing environmentally, socially, financially and politically, not to mention socially.
Every day we read headlines like this. The detail with which these questions are dealt with are usually in inverse proportion to the importance of the crisis in question.
People who react emotionally to things,mostly on social media, but are incapable (or unwilling) to analyse why this might be the case just blame the government.
It is really only the symptoms of social collapse that get any public attention.
While the previous government with its socially-destructive policies of austerity took this breakdown to new, unseen levels. But there is nothing unique in this and the result probably end up being the same.
We cannot look solely to economic policies.
What we are seeing is a neo-liberal response to a very real problem to ongoing and progressive collapse as a result of economic crisis arising out of energy decline along with ecological degradation and accelerating climate change.”
This is what happens when:
You let farmers take water to intensify dairy farming on the Canterbury Plains
You let farmers pump fertiliser into the land
You allow foreign corporations to take our water.
“Chlorine levels in some Christchurch water might be enough for swimming pool.”
Capitalism (and/or politics) may accelerate the process but physics dictate it….
“…A society in which depletion is advanced and M(p)
rapidly increasing relative to C(p), though, may not be able to escape catabolic
collapse even if such steps are taken. Cultural and political factors may also make
efforts to avoid catabolic collapse difficult to accomplish, or indeed to contemplate.”
That is shocking. Didn’t take long for the FBI to enter into the spirit of the new regime.
First – the Kaiser
Second – Hitler and Mussolini
Third – Trump.
Remember how Hitler was lauded for his so-called peace initiatives in the 1930s? Now we have some calling for Trump to be given the Nobel Peace prize. Beyond belief!
Trump isnt really offering peace either. as we well know his claims one month are abandoned 6 months later.
see his campaign claim to reduce US prescription drug prices is now an attempt to force foreign nations with ‘socialised medicine’ to pay more for their drugs ( ref our Pharmac)
Interesting case. Time to tighten up laws so that these transactions, offshore accounts and ‘loans’ which result in avoided tax, are not even possible in this country.
A well written Tobin tax would have collected the tax prior to the money leaving and avoided the lengthy court case.
Makes me wonder if this Current Lot are on a mission. Winston especially has history of going after those who are less than transparent in their business dealings.
Agree mostly with a financial transaction tax/levy….in these time of e-commerce it should be easy to implement.
@Rosemary – that is why they should look at putting a micro financial tax on everything and reduce other taxes that benefit those on smaller incomes more aka GST. If something like that was done correctly then if you live on peanuts you pay peanut taxes, if you have a million dollar lifestyle while earning zero profits you pay your share of tax at the point of transacting it… At the moment tax is so easy to avoid, too many variations and loopholes and so costly to fight cases…
yep, I think now with so much global capital whistling around the world it’s time to make it happen. Tax money and transactions so people like John Key, Eric Watson, Peter Thiel, Facebook, Google, etc whether resident in or out of NZ will be taxed a micro amount on their money made or going through NZ, where ever it goes afterwards will be someone else’s problem.
“Dinghy Pattinson is aiming to fulfil a promise he made as part of a mines rescue team that sealed up the Pike River mine in 2011.
The team left a note on the seal 170m up the mine access tunnel, or drift, promising the men they would return to get them out.
Pattinson was also part of the mines rescue team who were ready and waiting for two weeks to go into Pike River after the explosion that killed 29 men on November, 19, 2010.
‘We will not rest and we will never give up. We will return’ “
Was talking to an ex-coast, long time miner the other day about Pike, was very insightful, once he opened up a bit.
He explained that all along mine tunnels were little rooms with breathing apparatus etc, all one needed to do was get to one of these rooms and they would be able to stay alive for around 36hrs or more, giving rescue crews a chance to come and get them.
The rescue that never happened at Pike.
He believes that many of the men down there died from being abandoned, rather than the explosion. Also said Pike was well known for their shoddy safety, everyone on the coast knows it and that when they finally get in to Pike and get the men out it’s going to open a massive can of worms, and that’s why the prior government avoided rescue at all costs.
So proud of our new government for doing something. I can’t imagine the heartache and suffering of all involved.
The botched rescue including just getting the local police who knew nothing about mine safety is truely horrendous. Even countries with so called much worse human rights and employment safety bother to rescue their workers.
Pike River highlights that something is seriously wrong with how many companies with government assistance are operating in NZ – while pretending it’s all in the interests of health and safety but really to save dollars, avoid responsibility, not bother doing anything and delay tactics being the norm.
I’d like to see a memorial in Wellington for the men, by the beehive, to highlight the sad state of company greed and negligence and the government inaction supporting it and why a u-turn is needed.
You say
” Also said Pike was well known for their shoddy safety, everyone on the coast knows it”
What a shame that Andrew Little, yes, that Andrew Little, didn’t see anything wrong at all when he was supposed to be representing the men who worked there.
At the time Andrew said.
“EPMU national secretary Andrew Little said he was not aware of any safety concerns at the site.” https://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/experts-raise-safety-concerns
He repeated that a number of times
“It was Andrew Little who, after the first explosion, claimed to the NZ Herald (November 22 2010) that there was “nothing unusual about Pike River or this mine that we’ve been particularly concerned about”.
It was a view he repeated to RNZ National’s Morning Report, also on November 22:
“Every mine on the West Coast takes great care when it goes into production and I don’t think Pike River is any different from that. They’ve had a good health and safety committee that’s been very active. So there’s nothing before now that’s alerted us to any greater risk of this sort of incident happening than at any other time.” http://nzagainstthecurrent.blogspot.co.nz/2017/10/andrew-little-and-pike-river-fatally.html
If there is anyone who wants to run a cover-up it looks like Andrew. Who wants to bet on the proposition that he will decide it is unsafe to try for a re-entry next year? He is in the perfect position to shut down any real investigation, isn’t he?
They will never get on with it.
There is no chance at all that there will be any re-entry to the mine that goes right in to the place where they were working. No politician would ever risk it.
Lolz alwyn, would you like to place a wager? I’m keen, 3 month self imposed ban?
alwyn you are familiar with the West Coat yes? It’s a different world there.
I also said… “Was talking to an ex-coast, long time miner the other day about Pike, was very insightful, once he opened up a bit.”….. once he opened up a bit….
I wasn’t aware that Andrew Little came from the West Coast. I was always under the impression that he came from Taranaki. Am I wrong?
What does what the West Coasters think really matter? It is Andrew who is going to make the call, and I believe it is pre-determined. Who can say what might, or might not, have been done at the time. Now it would just be sending people into danger. Let those who died, like people drowned in ships sunk in the war, rest in peace.
I remember visiting the Coast in the mid-1960s. Yes it was quite different, However I can remember talking to a railways driver. There were still steam trains going across to the Coast. He said that the people there threatened to riot if they put Diesel Loco’s instead of coal powered ones on the route. He also said it was just talk and no-one living there had kept a coal range when they could get an electric one. They might talk about keeping coal but they weren’t actually going to use it themselves.
What exactly did you have in mind for this wager. All you seem to be willing to say here is “I say they will go into the mine”.
I suppose you could argue that they have done this. Remember the brave face that Little put on when he, and a couple of the members of some of the deceased miners’ families put on as he went 30 metres into the portal to the point where it was sealed the other day?
What are you proposing? I’ll give you a good example to follow. John Kennedy said
“First, I believe that this nation should commit itself to achieving the goal, before this decade is out, of landing a man on the moon and returning him safely to the earth”.
Quite explicit isn’t it? What to do. When to do it. How to judge success or failure.
How would you word the wager? Do you propose, for example, that people in the mission will travel right to the area where the men were working and, as far as I know, the explosion occurred, before 31 March. 2019? That is all the way into the mine.
If not, what would you suggest?
You are quite right about the first words of this comment. It was Rosemary who was talking about Little, Andrew. I do apologise for seeming to think that you were the one proposing him as an exemplar of integrity.
Nice dancing on the head of a pin alwyn. Cinny made a simple wager suggestion. And yes it was simple. The stakes arent even high but you had to go pseudo intellectual and self righteous rather than just acceptung or declining. Would that you were quite as analytical of Brownlee et al and the profit motive on these deaths as you are on Anrew Little.
Ironic that someone who has voted for those who have neutered unions now criticises a union for letting its members down
I rather hoped that Cinny would have responded by now as to what she did have in mind for the wager. It obviously has to have a date. After all it could otherwise turn into something like Winston’s threats to sue the National Party and its MPs.
“I’m still going to do it” Winston says while all is otherwise silent.
I suppose Little supporters could claim in 2050, when no attempt at a proper re-entry has taken place,that it will still happen, sometime.
Why does Little persist in messing with the victim’s families with the false hopes he keeps proclaiming?
For Tracey’s benefit I would note that I am not criticising the Union. I am criticising Andrew Little.
Utilising your long lack of empathy …. out of cameron slater and john key which one do you think was more likely to call bereaved mother of a pike river mine worker a bitch ?? … ,…..
the dead boys mother was a “bitch” who had heckled Key …according to Slater and published in Nicky Hagars “Dirty polictics”
I presume she did so over the hollowness and insincerity of his political stunt …his false promises to the dead pike river miners familys ….
The media nearly always gave key a pass for lieing ….. but not so from a young dead mans mother.
Totally missing from Alwyns mean eyed spit at this woman and other Pike river mine workers mothers: …is the Key and previous Nat Govts part in the criminal negligence that lead to these working mens deaths …….
cutting the number of mine inspectors … not enforcing regulations… Non-Compliant is virtually Nationals Trade Mark.
But what really shows up Key as a nasty arse-hole…. when his Governmnet received a multi-million insurance payout over Pike river…… the suggestion was put that some of that money be given to miners familys as compensation ……
Key “ they can sue “….Alwyn may well agree
We all know …At the end of the day 😉 😉 it was key who ran off from NZ politics
You may, or may not, realise that I am not John Key.
Neither am I Cameron Slater.
That obviously doesn’t matter to you. You really are a nasty piece of work aren’t you? What gives you the right to abuse me for things I have never done?
What gives you the right to accuse me of things like, in your own disgusting dribble ” Alwyns mean eyed spit at this woman “? I have never done such a thing and I despise anyone who would do so.
I also despise people like you who propagate such lies.
Get back in your hole you miserable little excuse for a human being. If you are unable to tell the truth about me why don’t you just shut up?
Its not about you Alwyn ….. your smeary diversionary blame Little dribble needed putting straight….. its part of the ‘blame the union’ shit your sort cynically use.
Your skewered, one-sided, political statement on pike river was offensive to the victims … a written slap in the face for the mothers on mothers day.
your coming across as ugly as Key … using the victims for political gain ….” let them sue”…..
I don’t place much stock on a cynical ugly repeat liar and hypocrite calling me a liar….
Instead lets be reminded of a New Zealander with morals and Justice challenging the rot and corruption of the last national Government ….
Frankly you are a complete nutter.
You have zero interest in the truth, or facts, or simple common-sense.
Crawl back into the cesspit of your fevered imagination.
You are completely beneath contempt.
You start a sentence with “I don’t place much stock ….”.
Well I don’t place much stock in the ravings of an idiot like you.
Pike River,,, and your bat-shit politically motivated appropriation of Blame …
Managers, directors, design and mining safety specs … have all dissapeared behind a little union rep … according to angry Alwyn
By Not engaging with facts , shouty abuse,, and a dose of the shut-ups.. Alwyns providing a good example of an ongoing context … where the ugly and dishonest .. attack lie and deny ,,, those who expose them.
Dirty Politics …its in their blood.
John Key : ” …Nicky Hager is a screaming left-wing conspiracy theorist,”
Key and waynes gutsy Afghanistan attacks: “,,,,, “Stephenson’s integrity and credibility has been questioned by Prime Minister John Key, he’s been accused of fabricating testimony, of being an anti-war activist, of being part of a plot to undermine the New Zealand Defence Force.”
Pike river NAct PR :… John Key: ..”The first thing is I’m here to give you absolute reassurance, we’re committed to getting the boys out, and nothing’s going to change that. So – when people try and tell you we’re not, they’re playing, I hate to say it, but they’re playing with your emotions.”
“Following from the first explosion at Pike Rive Mine, there seemed much positive comment heaped upon the likes of Peter Whittall and John Key.”
versus the ugly actions and real attitudes,,,
John Key ” they can sue”
“Furthermore, – Pike River management barred union access to the site if a delegate attempted to come on site – which was their perfect legal right to do so due to legislation passed by this National government.” /qc-describes-pike-river-mine-as-a-homicide-scene/
The Mine Rescue guys would have been gutted. My Dad was in Mine Rescue, and he said leaving anyone down a mine was their worst nightmare. So proud of Andrew Little and such respect for the families.
Not sure of your point here, are you saying less gdp growth would be good for nurses or more, or simply you have confused what ever the correlation is between GDP growth and nurses well being with causation
‘Charities’ are the new rout avenue. Clinton Foundation and so forth are really vehicles to channel money with tax advantages so it doesn’t look quite so much like a bribe or buying influence.
Personally not a fan of modern charities like KidsCan either that have millions in the bank, spend a lot of administration and make many think that government agencies and more austere type charities should be abandoned for the more glitzy marketing type of charity.
And I’ll only mention in passing, because with the rain today there’s gloom aplenty already, the many charities and trusts who have got their snouts firmly in the trough of government funded contracts to provide services in the ‘social’ sector.
They don’t make profits…they have surpluses…and pay no tax.
They can cause the deaths of people in their ‘care’ through under staffing and and are never properly held to account. By “held to account” i mean lose their fat contracts forever.
Hi. Am seeking the best books on recent (post-1984) NZ Political History – am aiming to guide a millenial. Here’s what I have so far:-
Simon Collins. 1987. Rogernomics: Is There A Better Way?;
Nicky Hagar. 2006. The Hollow Men;
Bruce Jesson. 1987. Behind The Mirror Glass;
Bruce Jesson. 1990. Fragments of Labour;
Harvey McQueen. 1991. The Ninth Floor: Inside the Prime Minister’s Office –
A Political Experience.
It’s a bit spartan so far. Anyone have any recommendations?
Also: Are these recommended?:-
Simon Sheppard. 1999. Broken Circle: The Decline And Fall Of The Fourth Labour Government;
Jon Johansson. 2009. The Politics of Possibility: Leadership in Changing
Times.
Dr Bill Sutch Economics – Balanced enterprises less weighted to farming
Read the presentations at the annual Bruce Jesson Journalism awards.
Geoffrey Palmer Unbridled Power
Marilyn Waring Counting for Nothing
Max Rashbrooke
Tim Hazeldine
Fabian addresses – must be on record
Thanks Rosemary for giving us all those links.
I have captured that link for Fabian – it takes so long to find stuff sometimes and have wanted to get them to hand for a while.
And Brian Easton – more good stuff. We need to water the good economists, give them some love, keep them going with their alternative thinking and turning of facts etc and flowering of ideas!
Thanks everybody! Much appreciated. Some good stuff here, natch. Whenever I think of Andrew Dean I think of Max Harris – encouraging that those of younger generations are looking backwards as well as looking forwards.
Brian Easton has, amongst others:-
The Making of Rogernomics (Auckland University Press, 1989)
Bruce Jesson Lectures have been delivered by: David Lange (2000), Brian Easton (2001), Chris Trotter (2002), Jane Kelsey (2003), Ani Mikaere (2004), Colin James (2005), Gordon Campbell (2006), Laila Harre (2007), Mike Lee (2008), Robert Wade (2009), Annette Sykes (2010), Paul Dalziel (2011), Nicky Hager (2012), Ted Thomas (2013), Mike Joy (2014), Rod Oram (2015) and Lisa Marriott (2016).
alwyn – we can tolerate what is said. We understand where Bassett was coming from. Whether we value what he says is another matter. No unpleasant surprises, so give up the “You may not like what he says.”
Bassett has not written another Bible.
I don’t care whether you agree with him. I couldn’t care less whether you value what he says. It is however essential reading if you want to understand what happened. Have you actually read the book?
I agree it is essential reading to understand how the Labour Party spawned the ACT Party and people like Bassett kept being used by the media to comment on Labour, following his leaving parliament, as though he represented Labour views.
Rebecca Macfie Tragedy at Pike River Mine: How and Why 29 Men Died
Jane Kelsey. The Fire Economy.
Jonathan Boston, Simon Chapple Child Poverty in New Zealand.
This is a problem for the Papatuanuku society Sea level rise we are to short sighted we have the technology to exanine Papatuanuku history but we don’t no how to live for the future we live for the NOW for what we can get out of life now and not what we can give to OUR mokopunas lives this mind set has to change the old way was to try and give back better than what we received. We need to change building codes to mitigate SEA level rise now or it will be a 1000x worst than the problem we have that our farmers have at the minute .We can not just ignore the problem because the longer we have OUR heads in the sand the bigger the mess we will have to clean up. A few bold moves now will save lives and billions of$$$$$ for OUR mokopunas THIS IS FACT here.s the link.
Eco Maori has to be careful whom I back because I can see a phenomenon.
The powers that be don’t like to be shown up by a Kiwi Maori Cultured Man from Te Waiapu Vally Tairawhiti like the idiots playing with there sounds and flashing neon lights at the minute . Ka kite ano
Good Evening NewsHub the better we care for the vulnerable mokopunas at the earliest we can the higher they will climb up there ladders of life.
That is reality for the working class poor the hardest hit from inequality in income and the brown poor people get hit the hardest the income disparities are shocking go to the high end of town and you see boats flash cars one million dollar house own by two people the other end and one see nothing but poverty people going with out basic needs.
I can rember 10 years ago life was a lot easier and the cost of living was a lot cheaper .
Ka kite ano
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Please find attached embargoed copies of two media statements from the Interim Climate Change Committee http://img.scoop.co.nz/media/pdfs/1907/Embargoed_Interim_Climate_Change_Committee_Accelerated_electrification_MEDIA_STATEMENT.pdf ...
Greenpeace Executive Director, Dr Russel Norman, has reacted with disbelief that the Government’s latest climate proposal includes an option for dairy to voluntarily deal with their emissions over the next six years. ...
This week’s “Youth Parliament” is an expensive waste of time that promotes taxpayer-funded junketeering, says the New Zealand Taxpayers’ Union . “We shouldn’t be training kids on the joys of the trough,” says Taxpayers’ Union spokesperson ...
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By Royson Willie in Port Vila Two Vanuatu Daily Post journalists were literally given a pat-down by the police criminal investigation unit yesterday over a story they had written about the vehicle of the Chairman of the Public Service ...
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Tougher laws governing the movement of animals and harsher penalties for non-compliance are on the table under an overhaul of two key pieces of legislation. ...
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The only published and available best-selling indie book chart in New Zealand is the top 10 sales list recorded every week at Unity Books’ stores in High St, Auckland, and Willis St, Wellington.AUCKLAND1 Three Women by Lisa Taddeo (Bloomsbury, $35)Fucking ...
Tougher laws governing the movement of animals and harsher penalties for non-compliance are on the table under an overhaul of two key pieces of legislation. ...
As we mark the fiftieth anniversary the July 20th Moon landing Dr Nick Long reflects on what that's meant for New Zealand and considers the space 'gold rush' ahead. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Christine Griebsch, Specialist and Senior Lecturer in Small Animal Medicine, University Veterinary Teaching Hospital Sydney, Sydney School of Veterinary Science, University of Sydney Recently reported cases of the often fatal bacterial infection ...
My selection of the eight best morning news links from here and overseas, along with eight lunchtime lean-back long reads. Also, the full list of links, including Jacinda Ardern's trip to Australia, the big emissions report, Fonterra's coal move and a new ...
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Finance companies say they shouldn’t have to be ‘fit and proper’ even though in some cases they charge more than the planned clampdown on high cost lending. A group of finance companies that charges well over the government’s proposed cap on ...
An ANZ shareholder is demanding the bank disclose more information about the sale of an Auckland residential property to its former chief executive and his family. ...
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Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Clive Hamilton, Professor of Public Ethics, Centre For Applied Philosophy & Public Ethics (CAPPE), Charles Sturt University Two Australian universities, University of Technology Sydney and Curtin University, are conducting internal reviews of ...
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Open Mike 12/05/2018 
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More interesting material from Craig Murray.
“The Incredible Bias of the BBC
Why is the BBC permitted, day after day after day, to pump out programming which actively promotes a political programme far to the right of where the British population actually stand? With the continual over-representation of nutty right wing groups like the Taxpayers’ Alliance and the Henry Jackson Society, while left wing groups of much larger membership such as Stop the War are completely ignored. Why low tax campaigners but no invitation ever to groups like Black Triangle who represent claimants interests? Not to mention the routine ignoring of the SNP, parliament’s third largest party.”
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/05/the-incredible-bias-of-the-bbc/
This is why State owned media is a bad idea. Even an organisation set up to attempt to be unbiased like the BBC gets accused of bias by people and then they start discussing his it can become more “unbiased”. This is usually code for ‘agree with my side more.
No. That’s why state-funded media is essential. Because it’s the only organisation that will ever be under any meaningful obligation to be impartial.
It’s that fact that makes the debate Ed started even possible. Nobody expects state-funded media to do a perfect job, but at least the obligation is there.
I agree.
We just have to deal with the bias of the senior executives at RNZ.
Why so many Taxpayers’ Union New Zealand Initiative stories?
Why the acceptance of neoliberal premises on economics?
Why the framing of stories from a right wing agenda?
Fortunately we now have alternative news sources to show the lies the mainstream runs.
@Ed +1 You can add to your list…
Why financial updates all through out the day, but no workers news?
Why is it RNZ have nearly all domestic and international financial/economic analysis done by bank economist?…economists who have a ideology that is based on selling and profiting from debt.
It opens itself up for political interference in editorial decisions. That is never a good thing.
State-funded media doesn’t have to be one single entity that might dominate the media landscape. Nor does it have to mean an entity where the Board & Chairman are appointed by the Government of the day. Nor does it have to mean an entity with strict hierarchical structure with strict managerial and editorial over sight where decisions by others are controlled and overruled by superiors all the way to the top. And it also doesn’t have to mean a Charter that demands financial/operational return AKA profit and dividends (to the Government).
Rather than having a one-size-fits-all entity or set-up why not reflect our society’s diversity and pluralism and fund that adequately? Media should cater for all citizens and inform the people so that they can make their own judgements if they wish …
What is wrong with the BBC structure then since people think it is biased
Riiight – and that wretched chip wrapper The Herald never interferes politically at the editorial level? The state model is sound – the only commercial enterprise that even approaches the BBC or Al Jazeera for quality is Reuters.
Gosman: talking the obvious unaccountability of private news organisations you have guaranteed politically based interference in what the populace receives and no one can say a word.
Talking the obvious accountability of state news organisations you have at least the formal capacity for the populace to holler like hell if/when there is the appearance or fact of political interference.
I see you’re still exercising risibly twisted, absolutist zealotry; oligarchs = good while the people = bad.
So does profit oriented privately owned media organisations…
Privately owned and operated media is, by default, a political tool and is open to the political interference of its owners.
The same can be said for state owned media.
Damned if you do etc
It can be but it can also be more open and honest. Depends upon how it’s set up.
Just as a private media will spin a story to its interest as can, and does, the state.
It won’t be The State.
It will be independent journalism.
Sure but again independent journalists also have their own bias.
I try to read everything from a multitude of sources. I read The Standard as much as I read Kiwiblog (though I’d never lower myself to comment there). I read the New Yorker, The Atlantic, Fox News, BBC, NYT, Washington Post, The Listener, AJZ, CNN, NBR , the list goes on and on.
It gets fucking tiring but I’m a news junkie. Then there’s the science mags and the books….it’s a wonder I manage to have job and raise a child while maintaining an alcohol habit.
And there’s nothing that we can or should do about that – except demand that they provide proof and not just ‘reckons’ as we get from so many talking heads in the private sector.
What is wrong with how the BBC is set up?
FWICMO, it’s structured with capitalist, top down, dictatorship control in mind.
State-ownership, in my view, ought to mean that it is owned and managed by the state on behalf of all citizens and it has a (social) mandate to deliver (a service or product) for the public good, not for (financial) profit to the owners. This doesn’t make it immune from political meddling but any (political) benefits may be harder to obtain (and hide from public view) as they tend to be more indirect (arm’s length influence and control). State-owned media have a fundamentally different mandate and governance compared to privately-owned media unless they’re run strictly as a business in the common sense in which case it is an easy step for National & ACT to sell/privatise.
State owned media is no less biased than private media. The difference is our taxes don’t fund private media. State run media is totally surplus to requirements in a modern society.
Good thing the state isn’t running it then, eh. Also, I question your interpretation of the word “modern”.
Re: quality and quantity of bias, I note the presence of a diverse range of opinions on RNZ.
The state IS running state media. With our taxes. Shut the lot down, then maybe Labour can meet some of its broken promises.
Don’t be so stupid.
Sure a state can run a lame media – Pravda or RT – but not all states do.
What’s wrong with the MSM is not state interference, but commercial interference. Murdoch etc. The useless ZB network. Fox.
The citizen has no comeback against their shit short of shutting them down. When you see the crap NZ TV has become it’s looking like a pretty good option.
I agree.
Take back the airwaves from the plutocrats.
At the expense of taxpayers? And in exchange for state propaganda? No thanks.
Who said anything about state propaganda? Can you provide an example of “state propaganda” on TVNZ or RNZ. Be specific: quote the actual article in question and explain how it qualifies.
“What’s wrong with the MSM is not state interference, but commercial interference. ”
Commercial interference is paid for by commercial interests. State interference (and it is endemic in state media) is paid for by tax payers. Stop it all.
Looks like you don’t know what endemic means either.
oops meant epidemic. Thanks.
All you need now is an example.
The airwaves are the commons.
Rich corporate interests should never be allowed anywhere near them.
And under your system babaya the world becomes a plutocracy, where the rich own and control the news.
We are getting closer to that.
Only the state setting up grassroots news and taking the airwaves back can stop the march of the uberrich.
Why do you take the side of the robber barons?
The airwaves are the commons.
State interests and their accompanying propaganda should never be allowed anywhere near them.
So who do you think should have access to the airwaves?
Large corporations?
“So who do you think should have access to the airwaves?
Large corporations?”
Large, small, and in between. Community groups. Special interest groups. Heck anyone but the government.
Do you think Fox News is better than RNZ as a source of news?
Do you think The NewZealand Herald is better than RNZ as a source of news?
“Do you think Fox News is better than RNZ as a source of news?”
Yes, absolutely. Particularly given that Fox news is balanced by CNN and MSNBC.
“Do you think The NewZealand Herald is better than RNZ as a source of news?”
Marginal call.
Ed: Do you think Fox News is better than RNZ as a source of news?
Babyaga: Yes, absolutely.
True believers untie, you have nothing to lose but your sanity and balance 😆
Fox News is unashamedly biased. So is Red Radio.
The differences are:
1. We fund Red Radio and,
2. Read Radio don’t admit they are biased.
Repeating Farrar’s catchphrases is not a good sign of a well thought out argument.
‘
Red RadioRNZ is biased’.That isn’t what you claimed. You claimed them as an example of “state propaganda”. So you’ve now abandoned that claim and are claiming bias.
But once again, you’ve failed to provide any examples of this bias, although perhaps you mean Matthew Hooton.
I expect you’ll cite John Campbell as an example, but then you’d have to show how Checkpoint exhibits a “state” bias, as opposed to John Campbell’s. And if your only objection is that individual hosts bring their own biases to the mix, RNZ is doing no more or less than whoever it is that employs Hoskings et al, and RNZ has the advantage of a wider spectrum of views.
Perhaps it’s that advantage that you don’t like. The very idea that the state might provide something more useful (and popular) than the “free” “market”.
Unless you can link to a specific example of “state propaganda”, that is. Tumbleweeds?
“You claimed them as an example of “state propaganda”.”
Where?
“So you’ve now abandoned that claim and are claiming bias.”
Well when the Minster of Broadcasting has a clandestine meeting with a senior RNZ executive, that both try to hide, I’d say that was a pretty good example of at least an attempt at state influence. Of course you support the Greens, so you are in bed with liars and cheats.
“not on my dime”
Whereas I’m happy to provide it on my “dime”, and since at the last count far more people support my position (even the Trashional Party funds RNZ when in government) than yours, I’m pretty sure we can do without your petty contribution. Tell you what, we’ll fund the things we like and you can contribute to David Seymour’s taxpayer funded trough, eh.
Bully for you. Not my dime.
in bed with liars and cheaters
On this issue, I’m also in bed with the NZLP, NZF and National. We’re having a great time while you’re in line to practise necrophilia with Ayn Rand, and Don Brash took your place in the queue 😉
On what issue? The welfare cheat? The MP who worked for war criminals while claiming to be bringing them to justice? The MP who has gone on to head an organisation who are bullying people for donations?
On what issue?
The continued funding of RNZ. Perhaps if you and Don pooled your resources you could afford a couple of clones of Ayn, and they could humiliate and despise you just like the original.
In case you missed it, the ‘liars and cheats’ I was referring to were the Greens. Here, you’ll get the idea if you read my comment “Of course you support the Greens, so you are in bed with liars and cheats.”/open-mike-12-05-2018/#comment-1483690
Still waiting for a specific example of the
bogeymanstate propaganda.Here’s an example to help you recognise it.
Have you ever heard of Red Radio?
PS great article BTW.
I have already asked you to provide a specific example of an actual article and explain in your own words how it constitutes “state propaganda”.
If you can’t manage that very basic thing your argument isn’t worth very much.
You provided your own example. Do you seriously want me to post examples of state media propaganda from China, Russia, etc etc? If you don’t think it can happen here, perhaps you missed the meeting between Clare Curran and Carol Hirschfeld?
I have heard that term used by right wing nut jobs yes.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12021163
I don’t click on the Herald’s links – following others in boycotting it since its ghastly rubbish a couple of weeks back,
The Herald is rapidly becoming an echo chamber for Farrar and his crazed right wing friends.
You mentioned “Red Radio”, aka RNZ. Provide a specific example of an RNZ article that constitutes “state propaganda”.
You freely admit “commercial interference” in commercial radio. You allege that similar interference, specifically “state propaganda” exists in local state owned media, and cite RNZ as an example.
Yet you can’t point to a single article to illustrate your argument. Don’t get me wrong, I know you’re full of shit, but you might at least make some flailing attempt to justify your conspiracist delusions.
Well said.
“Provide a specific example of an RNZ article that constitutes “state propaganda”.”
All bias on red radio represents state propaganda. Note, not government propaganda. State propaganda. Now John Campbell is biased, and I have no problem with that on private media, but not on my dime.
“You allege that similar interference, specifically “state propaganda” exists in local state owned media…”
No, never said ‘local’.
“and cite RNZ as an example.”
I asked you a question about Red Radio and provided evidence of at the very least interference – Curran’s meeting with Hirschfeld.
But wait, there’s more:
“When Metiria Turei announced she was stepping down from Parliament, Radio NZ’s Checkpoint host John Campbell was a paragon of empathy and compassion, writes Liam Hehir.”
“Like many news agencies, Radio NZ has a mild centre-left bias. If you don’t believe it, my guess would be that you probably have a centre-left disposition yourself.”
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/99720488/radio-new-zealand-should-appoint-its-own-ombudsman
All bias on
red radioRNZ represents state propagandaMatthew Hooton broadcasts state propaganda. Good to know 😆
Don’t forget they’re out to get you.
“Matthew Hooton broadcasts state propaganda. Good to know ”
No, he doesn’t broadcast it, but he participates in it. You see, Blokey, with private broadcasters we can discern the bias and we’re not paying for it. With public broadcasting we’re getting propaganda and paying for it. No thanks.
“Propaganda”
For which you are yet to provide a single specific example. Is it during the leader of the opposition’s regular slots?
Curran. Hirschfeld. Explain it.
You’ve piqued my curiosity; who is paying (for) private broadcasters? Do they work gratis or pro bono?
Advertisers.
Curran. Hirschfeld. Explain it.
Explain it yourself, you rude prick. You don’t get to make demands: you get to provide some supporting evidence for your assertions of “propaganda”. Put up or shut up.
Look it up. Think about it.
Advertisers? Oh, that’s o.k. then as that would make private broadcasters immune from political meddling because political parties and their lobbyists never take out ads in MSM, never ever. And private broadcasters only broadcast direct messages on behalf of their advertisers, like shampoo manufacturers. That’s why all talkback shows, for example, are about shampoo and other commodities and never about politics. I mean, I can tell when an ad is about shampoo although sometimes it is hard to discern at first because it could also be a lipstick ad …
Talking of lipstick, do you know whether Mike Hosking and Simon Bridges use the same brand of hair gel, by any chance?
One last question, who’s paying the advertisers?
And one very last question, I promise, are advertising and marketing expenses tax deductible in NZ?
“…because political parties and their lobbyists never take out ads in MSM, never ever.”
Of course they do. That’s the point…they are the ones paying, not the taxpayer.
“And private broadcasters only broadcast direct messages on behalf of their advertisers, like shampoo manufacturers.”
Of course not. They broadcast their opinion. How many awards did Newstalk ZB receive at the recent Radio Awards?
You seem to believe private commercial interests having opinions and broadcasting them is bad. It isn’t. What is bad is the government owning the medium for broadcasting ideas.
“One last question, who’s paying the advertisers?”
People who voluntarily buy their products.
“And one very last question, I promise, are advertising and marketing expenses tax deductible in NZ?”
Of course. They are a cost of deriving assessable income.
What a tangled web we weave.
So, private broadcasts are full of political and other direct and indirect advertising but that’s o.k. because the consumers pay for it; the consumers who are also the Taxpayers.
The only accountability and transparency, if any, is to the private owners of the station; the consumers/Taxpayers will have no idea who’s influencing them.
As long as the funding does not come directly from the Taxpayers any opinion or influence that the private broadcaster wants to send out for whatever reason and on whomever’s behalf without either the listeners or consumers/Taxpayers fully in the know is perfectly fine.
All this is perfectly acceptable because consumers voluntarily buy (or not) the products of the advertisers in a free-market exchange. The commercial guys are so much more credit-worthy than politicians, aren’t they? [pun intended]
You do know the saying that if you don’t know what the product is … ?
You are confused.
All media carries bias. I’m fine with that as long as it is declared and I’m not paying for it. The government has no business in media, none. It is a risky and expensive business for little or no benefit. And I don’t trust government’s of any stripe to declare their bias and keep far away from propaganda.
This is why State owned media is a bad idea.
As opposed to rigorously professional outfits like Fox News and MSNBC? You don’t have a clue.
Gosman, your comments are often ignorant and ill judged, but whatever you say this morning, no matter how ignorant and ill judged, will not be worse than what you inflicted on us a few days ago….
Yes Gosman talks silly stuff.
NZME and Stuff are owned by multinational finance corporations.
They wouldn’t be biased would they?
In the corporate media you get biased fools like Garner showing their true colours.
https://i.stuff.co.nz/opinion/103843906/duncan-garner-if-twyford-cant-phil-us-in-on-kiwibuybuild-who-can
Eh???
What has a comment about Melanie Trump got to do with me?
Similarly, Ed, I note that David Farrar and Jordan Williams’s ludicrous Taxpayers’ Union and the right wing New Zealand Initiative often set the agenda for “news” on both main TV channels, and on Radio New Zealand. The researchers and analysts of the universities and the unions, by contrast, are rarely given much consideration.
Agreed. And look at the number of ACT members who get on Mora’s Panel.
Who for example?
Stephen Franks. But I’m sure there’s many more..
Interesting point
heres a summary of this show
https://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/thepanel/library
names are ( couldnt click and paste ,grrr)
Lisa Scott and Ian Telfer
Jo Mccarrol and Scott Campbell
max Ritchie and Niki Bezzant
Rosemary Macleod and Peter Fa’afui
garry Moore and Miriama Aoake
cas carter and Steve Mccabe
Jock Anderson and Mai Chen
Verity Johnson and Simon Pound
Peter Vial and Paula Penfold
Clare de Lore and Alan Blackman
Ella Henry and John Barnett
Micheal Moynahan and Penny Ashton
Minhingarangi Forbes Sam Johnson
Lynda Hallinan and Chris Clarke
Alexia Russel and Mike Rehu
Mike Williams and Michelle Boag
Bernard Hickey and jenny Moreton
neil Miller Alison Mau
Chris Waikira and Janet Wilson
Lisa Scott and Andrew Hoggard
Gary McCormick and Lizzie Marvelly
Michelle A’ court Peter Fa’aifu
Catherine Robertson and Peter Milne
Nadine Higgins and Matt Nippert
Thats over a months worth and quite a variety. Sometimes certain names are more memorable while a lot of the above arent too well known ( arent yet famous for being famous)
I’ve annotated that list of “talent” accordingly…
[1] vacuous; [2] supporter of Israeli government; [3] close links to National Party; [4] spouse of ex-National Party MP; [5] regularly expresses strident right wing views; [6];
Lisa Scott [1] and Ian Telfer
Jo Mccarrol and Scott Campbell [3]
max Ritchie [5] and Niki Bezzant
Rosemary Macleod [5] and Peter Fa’afui
garry Moore and Miriama Aoake
cas carter [1] and Steve Mccabe
Jock Anderson [5] and Mai Chen
Verity Johnson and Simon Pound
Peter Vial and Paula Penfold
Clare de Lore[4] and Alan Blackman [1]
Ella Henry [1] and John Barnett [2]
Micheal Moynahan and Penny Ashton
Minhingarangi Forbes and Sam Johnson [3]
Lynda Hallinan and Chris Clarke [1]
Alexia Russel and Mike Rehu
Mike Williams and Michelle Boag [1], [2], [3], [4], [5]
Bernard Hickey and jenny Moreton
Neil Miller [5] and Alison Mau
Chris Wikaira [2], [3] and Janet Wilson [5]
Lisa Scott [1] and Andrew Hoggard [1], [3], [5]
Gary McCormick and Lizzie Marvelly
Michelle A’ court Peter Fa’aifu
Catherine Robertson and Peter Milne
Nadine Higgins and Matt Nippert
Really? An ACT party member today?
Stephen was certainly an ACT MP from 1999 until 2005.
However he then joined the National Party and was on the National List in 2008. He has taken no active part in politics since then as far as I can see so, although he may still be a member of the National Party I have seen no evidence at all that he went back to ACT.
Do you have any?
Who said we were talking about current ACT members??
When the comment made is in the present tense
“And look at the number of ACT members who get on Mora’s Panel”
one is certainly entitled to expect that you will find current members to nominate. If the best you can discover is someone who was a member a decade ago you are failing.
On your basis I am entitled to state that the Labour party is the arch-proponent of Rogernomics. You will have to agree if you think your own comment is accurate.
Oh dear, Alwyn… more punctilious crap. Franks remains ACT in thought and word whether he is a current member or not. Get your mummy to put you to bed instead of allowing you to post such rubbish. (I am returning a foolish insult you posted against me, just in case it escaped your university-qualified vigilance.)
That’s nice dear.
In Vino
So what. I presume you believe in free speech; in which case Franks is entitled to his point of view, even if you disagree with it.
Grantoc
You’re missing or ignoring the point raised @ 1.2 and 1.2.1.
Hint: it is not about free speech as such.
Exactly right, I have been emailing the producers of RNZ (nicely) about this exact point for the past 12 months…no reply of course.
Taxpayers Alliance? Taxpayers Union and they all try to behave as if they are not part of a strategy
Ed’s comment is about yet another Craig Murray opinion this time re the BBC. Hence UK related, not NZ; and not about the NZ Taxpayers Union.
The TaxPayers’ Alliance is a right-wing British pressure group and think tank formed in 2004 to campaign for a low tax society. The group, based in London, had about 18,000 registered supporters as of 2008, and claimed to have 55,000 by September 2010.
https://www.taxpayersalliance.com/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TaxPayers%27_Alliance
I understood that, and was noting that the UK has an equivalent of our Taxpayer Union an arms length group helping right parties get re elected
In the background, where the majority of people can’t see, it’s probably the same group.
Kind of like Trade Unions you mean.
No. Trades Unions are comprised of citizens, not sockpuppets.
In your opinion.
To go along to get along. The whole Thatcherite revolution was essentially a dumbing down and raising fears, all started with Murdoch lowering the bar and mulching any conflict against wealth. Press bias merely reflects the current elites unwillingness to pull its finger out, having been deluded into believing that the market will save their sorry arises if only they distrust the market of ideas that will save their sorry arises from being burnt to a cinder.
Shocking especially because they used to (and probably still do I expect) make everybody in Britain pay a yearly TV licence for the content which clearly should not be biased!!!
You want one image that shows how compromised the BBC has become.
Look at Jo Coburn’s face as the BBC cut an interview when one of their reporters says MI6 was involved in torture.
That reminds me of another time the BBC ‘unfortunately lost the line.’
Disgusting. Absolutely disgusting.
And not just because he looks like Simon Bridges.
https://www.nationalreview.com/news/marco-rubio-condemns-fellow-lawmakers-opposing-gina-haspels-confirmation/
The media have really let Bridges off the hook for his liking of Slater’s tweet.
The media routinely take their lead from Slater and Farrar. Jim Mora references Farrar every second day, and has him on as a guest regularly. No doubt he’d do the same with Whalefat if he ever relaxed his ideological ban on appearing on “state media.”
I actually find Mora in many ways more contemptible than Hosking.
At least Hosking doesn’t pretend.
You have to admit they’ve got the bases covered with gentle Jim playing a subtle nuanced role with a stacked panel.
Though remembering that it’s helpful to listen to which fear they are playing up. Of course if it’s all right-wing sledging then do what I do, avoid Hooten, Boag, Frank’s, and just pick one right-wing hack, it’s not like there is any depth to their messaging. Farrier is best of the boring fools.
Yeh, I have noticed that Mora has only just contained himself of the Asia peril at our doorstep re; China, lately…I am pretty sure he is going to slip on this one pretty soon.
Morrisey – If this is true, its totally offset by RNZ giving John Campbell 2 hrs every night to push a left wing agenda.
Are you saying that giving a voice to the disenfranchised and holding power to account is inherently Left Wing?, because I can’t remember Campbell pushing any political ideology…maybe you can refresh me.
He will have forgotten that Campbell caused a labour PM to flunce out of an interview
Given that David Farrar runs the most widely read blog in New Zealand, it is hardly surprising that media commentators refer to him.
And although Standardnistas won’t like this, David Farrar comes across as reasonably balanced, even if he is a well known supporter of National. It is some of his commenters that are extreme.
He regularly gives credit to the government when he thinks it is due. He is not so one-eyed that he condemns every single action of the government. Likewise he is critical of the opposition from time to time
” David Farrar comes across as reasonably balanced, even if he is a well known supporter of National. It is some of his commenters that are extreme. ”
If one were so inclined and had the ability and the facility, one could invent a persona, append a twitty pseudonym and spew vile hate speech unfettered on a totally un moderated website. It’d be like allowing one’s evil alter to have a ‘real life’ or in some cases ‘lives’.
Farrar allows those “extreme” commenters free reign…he is a despicable person.
Most people here know this….why would you even think it appropriate to try and defend the indefensible?
He’s a troll farmer. That earns less respect, not more.
And Wayne is partisan so his view of balanced is jaundiced.
The Standard also allows “extreme” commentators from the left ‘free reign’. Is that ‘despicable’ to?
Or are you trying to “defend the indefensible”?
Yeah nah – he was hip deep in the dirty politics scam. Nothing unusual for a Gnat of course, but contemptible by the standards of normal people.
Comes across as reasonably balanced…to the likes of yourself perhaps, Wayne…and those who appreciate and support ‘hate’ blog sites such as KB…
But that is no rational benchmark for , balance…
What drives you to keep commentating on this blog, Wayne…you’ve not tendered a response…
Kiwi blog seems a more natural habitat given your documented publicly available history…
The scary thing is that I think you really believe this! Or do I hear a dog-whistle?
The fact that those “extreme” commenters are being ‘invited’ by the posts on KB written by DPF and other authors (…) seems to have escaped your thought. All propaganda has and starts with instigators too.
Further, DPF not only provides an inviting and welcoming forum with ample ‘food for thought’ for those “extreme” commenters but also cries that it is too hard to manage, which is just unbelievably pathetic and has a very disingenuous ring to it.
DPF may give token credit to the Government and express token criticism of the Opposition “from time to time” but that’s just pulling the wool over our eyes, isn’t it? Just like Simon Bridges strongly condemned the DP campaign against Clarke Gayford. Yeah, right!
No resignation calls for his disreslect to oyr falken? We would still be hearing about it if Shearer, Cullliffe, Little or Ardern had taken a taxpayer funded flight to Hawaii on hols instead
Absolutely
Lucky for him he’s just a tool for global capitalism then.
Odd story:
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/103764952/bridges-mea-culpa-for-titter-faux-pas-too-much-tweeting-maketh-a-twat
Anyway, we now know Mr Bridges
readsscrolls through tweets by WO. We also know that Mr Bridges easily lets his guard down when (or better: in spite of) reading tweets by WO – WO is a well-known and respected comedian in National circles and his tweets are often considered ‘funny’. Maybe Mr Bridges was not wearing his hat as Leader of the Opposition but tweeting in ’private capacity’.“Literally a second” would not have given time for a 3rd party to do a screenshot. Literally
He was just scrolling down tweets from WO, as you do, and literally liked it but that doesn’t mean he literally liked it as it is just one of those things you do when scrolling down through tweets from WO, literally.
In National nothing should be taken literally, only aspirationally. A brighter future for all literally means a slightly less dim future for the dimwits (AKA poor, workers, un- and underemployed,
beneficiaries, most people) and a much brighter future for the few (AKA rich) but you cannot literally say that. Being on the cusp of something special literally means that you’ve got gas and have to do a fart but just like weeing in the shower you cannot literally say that in a public medium so you make it sound expirationally.Anything that this Government says or does is literally bad, of course. It goes without saying that the Opposition and particularly the Leader of the Opposition without question and without reading literally poopoos everything from Government. Coincidentally, this comes naturally to National because they literally have no original ideas, which is why they scroll through WO tweets and KB and literally like posts and comments alike; in National they like what they like ad nauseam, literally.
Effectively, Slick Britches is full of bullshit.
My second share of the day are the words of a great New Zealander, Robin Westenra.
“Ecological and economic collapse in New Zealand
It will be only apparent to those paying attention but New Zealand is collapsing environmentally, socially, financially and politically, not to mention socially.
Every day we read headlines like this. The detail with which these questions are dealt with are usually in inverse proportion to the importance of the crisis in question.
People who react emotionally to things,mostly on social media, but are incapable (or unwilling) to analyse why this might be the case just blame the government.
It is really only the symptoms of social collapse that get any public attention.
While the previous government with its socially-destructive policies of austerity took this breakdown to new, unseen levels. But there is nothing unique in this and the result probably end up being the same.
We cannot look solely to economic policies.
What we are seeing is a neo-liberal response to a very real problem to ongoing and progressive collapse as a result of economic crisis arising out of energy decline along with ecological degradation and accelerating climate change.”
http://robinwestenra.blogspot.co.nz/2018/05/ecological-and-economic-collapse-in-new.html?m=1
Superb piece of writing there once again by Westenra. If only the world had more men like him.
This looks like a good one.
The book is called “The War On Peace: The decline of American diplomacy”
Trevor Noah interviews the author Ronan Farrow, who also broke major stories as a reporter such as the #MeToo movement, among others.
Thanks for the link Ad
This is what happens when:
You let farmers take water to intensify dairy farming on the Canterbury Plains
You let farmers pump fertiliser into the land
You allow foreign corporations to take our water.
“Chlorine levels in some Christchurch water might be enough for swimming pool.”
https://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/103631494/chlorine-levels-in-some-christchurch-water-might-be-enough-for-swimming-pool
Neoliberal New Zealand.
A poster boy for plutocrats.
A basket case for its citizens.
Auckland.
35000 empty homes.
Houses too expensive to rent or buy.
People living on the streets.
Neoliberal New Zealand.
A poster boy for plutocrats.
A basket case for its citizens.
https://www.strongtowns.org/the-growth-ponzi-scheme/
Ponzi schemes everywhere you look…..think there may be a message in that.
Capitalism itself is a Ponzi Scheme. A few end up rich, everyone else ends up poor.
Capitalism (and/or politics) may accelerate the process but physics dictate it….
“…A society in which depletion is advanced and M(p)
rapidly increasing relative to C(p), though, may not be able to escape catabolic
collapse even if such steps are taken. Cultural and political factors may also make
efforts to avoid catabolic collapse difficult to accomplish, or indeed to contemplate.”
https://www.ecoshock.org/transcripts/greer_on_collapse.pdf
Scary stuff about new terrorism laws and how they seem to be operating…
Black activist jailed for his Facebook posts speaks out about secret FBI surveillance
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/11/rakem-balogun-interview-black-identity-extremists-fbi-surveillance
That is shocking. Didn’t take long for the FBI to enter into the spirit of the new regime.
First – the Kaiser
Second – Hitler and Mussolini
Third – Trump.
Remember how Hitler was lauded for his so-called peace initiatives in the 1930s? Now we have some calling for Trump to be given the Nobel Peace prize. Beyond belief!
“Beyond belief!”
We are living in Wonderland now Anne….under Rabbit Hole rules.
😀
That film was a brilliant rendition of A in Wonderland. And so appropriate to today’s disordered world courtesy of Donald Trump.
Hitlers peace initiatives ?
Only if you are a Hilter revisionist ( which Im sure you arent)!
http://ihr.org/other/what-the-world-rejected.html
Trump isnt really offering peace either. as we well know his claims one month are abandoned 6 months later.
see his campaign claim to reduce US prescription drug prices is now an attempt to force foreign nations with ‘socialised medicine’ to pay more for their drugs ( ref our Pharmac)
From the “It couldn’t happen to a nicer guy…” files,
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12048706
The company of which Eric Watson holds all of the ordinary shares is being chased down for 60 million Big Ones in avoided tax.
What a tragedy…givealittle page on its way?
Interesting case. Time to tighten up laws so that these transactions, offshore accounts and ‘loans’ which result in avoided tax, are not even possible in this country.
A well written Tobin tax would have collected the tax prior to the money leaving and avoided the lengthy court case.
Makes me wonder if this Current Lot are on a mission. Winston especially has history of going after those who are less than transparent in their business dealings.
Agree mostly with a financial transaction tax/levy….in these time of e-commerce it should be easy to implement.
But the Rich Pricks will find a way around it 🙁
@Rosemary – that is why they should look at putting a micro financial tax on everything and reduce other taxes that benefit those on smaller incomes more aka GST. If something like that was done correctly then if you live on peanuts you pay peanut taxes, if you have a million dollar lifestyle while earning zero profits you pay your share of tax at the point of transacting it… At the moment tax is so easy to avoid, too many variations and loopholes and so costly to fight cases…
Hah savenz! I have a close family member who has been banging on about such a tax for years. Pleased for him it is rising to the mainstream.
yep, I think now with so much global capital whistling around the world it’s time to make it happen. Tax money and transactions so people like John Key, Eric Watson, Peter Thiel, Facebook, Google, etc whether resident in or out of NZ will be taxed a micro amount on their money made or going through NZ, where ever it goes afterwards will be someone else’s problem.
Another case of the SFA tax… this video will brighten up a rainy day for many.. it’s very well done.
Honest Government Ad | Trickledown Economics
This up date on the Pike River Recovery.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/103725677/the-promise-to-pike-river-miners-we-will-not-rest-and-we-will-never-give-up-we-will-return
“Dinghy Pattinson is aiming to fulfil a promise he made as part of a mines rescue team that sealed up the Pike River mine in 2011.
The team left a note on the seal 170m up the mine access tunnel, or drift, promising the men they would return to get them out.
Pattinson was also part of the mines rescue team who were ready and waiting for two weeks to go into Pike River after the explosion that killed 29 men on November, 19, 2010.
‘We will not rest and we will never give up. We will return’ “
Good article, thanks for sharing Rosemary.
Was talking to an ex-coast, long time miner the other day about Pike, was very insightful, once he opened up a bit.
He explained that all along mine tunnels were little rooms with breathing apparatus etc, all one needed to do was get to one of these rooms and they would be able to stay alive for around 36hrs or more, giving rescue crews a chance to come and get them.
The rescue that never happened at Pike.
He believes that many of the men down there died from being abandoned, rather than the explosion. Also said Pike was well known for their shoddy safety, everyone on the coast knows it and that when they finally get in to Pike and get the men out it’s going to open a massive can of worms, and that’s why the prior government avoided rescue at all costs.
So proud of our new government for doing something. I can’t imagine the heartache and suffering of all involved.
The botched rescue including just getting the local police who knew nothing about mine safety is truely horrendous. Even countries with so called much worse human rights and employment safety bother to rescue their workers.
Pike River highlights that something is seriously wrong with how many companies with government assistance are operating in NZ – while pretending it’s all in the interests of health and safety but really to save dollars, avoid responsibility, not bother doing anything and delay tactics being the norm.
I’d like to see a memorial in Wellington for the men, by the beehive, to highlight the sad state of company greed and negligence and the government inaction supporting it and why a u-turn is needed.
Well said SaveNZ.
You say
” Also said Pike was well known for their shoddy safety, everyone on the coast knows it”
What a shame that Andrew Little, yes, that Andrew Little, didn’t see anything wrong at all when he was supposed to be representing the men who worked there.
At the time Andrew said.
“EPMU national secretary Andrew Little said he was not aware of any safety concerns at the site.”
https://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/experts-raise-safety-concerns
He repeated that a number of times
“It was Andrew Little who, after the first explosion, claimed to the NZ Herald (November 22 2010) that there was “nothing unusual about Pike River or this mine that we’ve been particularly concerned about”.
It was a view he repeated to RNZ National’s Morning Report, also on November 22:
“Every mine on the West Coast takes great care when it goes into production and I don’t think Pike River is any different from that. They’ve had a good health and safety committee that’s been very active. So there’s nothing before now that’s alerted us to any greater risk of this sort of incident happening than at any other time.”
http://nzagainstthecurrent.blogspot.co.nz/2017/10/andrew-little-and-pike-river-fatally.html
If there is anyone who wants to run a cover-up it looks like Andrew. Who wants to bet on the proposition that he will decide it is unsafe to try for a re-entry next year? He is in the perfect position to shut down any real investigation, isn’t he?
Don’t you think it is appropriate, given that he perhaps erred back in the day, that Andrew Little heads this project?
Even cynical old moi sees the slight aura of integrity around the man. Rare enough for any politician.
Do you honestly think someone like Dinghy Pattinson would let crap like that go unchallenged?
Why not put it on hold for a while alwyn and let them get on with it.
They will never get on with it.
There is no chance at all that there will be any re-entry to the mine that goes right in to the place where they were working. No politician would ever risk it.
Hopes alwyn.
And Gerry Brownlee
Lolz alwyn, would you like to place a wager? I’m keen, 3 month self imposed ban?
alwyn you are familiar with the West Coat yes? It’s a different world there.
I also said… “Was talking to an ex-coast, long time miner the other day about Pike, was very insightful, once he opened up a bit.”….. once he opened up a bit….
I wasn’t aware that Andrew Little came from the West Coast. I was always under the impression that he came from Taranaki. Am I wrong?
What does what the West Coasters think really matter? It is Andrew who is going to make the call, and I believe it is pre-determined. Who can say what might, or might not, have been done at the time. Now it would just be sending people into danger. Let those who died, like people drowned in ships sunk in the war, rest in peace.
I remember visiting the Coast in the mid-1960s. Yes it was quite different, However I can remember talking to a railways driver. There were still steam trains going across to the Coast. He said that the people there threatened to riot if they put Diesel Loco’s instead of coal powered ones on the route. He also said it was just talk and no-one living there had kept a coal range when they could get an electric one. They might talk about keeping coal but they weren’t actually going to use it themselves.
alwyn, I said nothing about Andrew Little, you are the one spinning yarns here.
I said that I was talking to an ex miner, nothing about Andrew.
alwyn, you did say… “Who wants to bet on the proposition that he (Andrew Little) will decide it is unsafe to try for a re-entry next year?”
I’ll take up your bet, I say they will go into the mine, I will wager you a 3 month self imposed ban.
What do you say?
What exactly did you have in mind for this wager. All you seem to be willing to say here is “I say they will go into the mine”.
I suppose you could argue that they have done this. Remember the brave face that Little put on when he, and a couple of the members of some of the deceased miners’ families put on as he went 30 metres into the portal to the point where it was sealed the other day?
What are you proposing? I’ll give you a good example to follow. John Kennedy said
“First, I believe that this nation should commit itself to achieving the goal, before this decade is out, of landing a man on the moon and returning him safely to the earth”.
Quite explicit isn’t it? What to do. When to do it. How to judge success or failure.
How would you word the wager? Do you propose, for example, that people in the mission will travel right to the area where the men were working and, as far as I know, the explosion occurred, before 31 March. 2019? That is all the way into the mine.
If not, what would you suggest?
You are quite right about the first words of this comment. It was Rosemary who was talking about Little, Andrew. I do apologise for seeming to think that you were the one proposing him as an exemplar of integrity.
Nice dancing on the head of a pin alwyn. Cinny made a simple wager suggestion. And yes it was simple. The stakes arent even high but you had to go pseudo intellectual and self righteous rather than just acceptung or declining. Would that you were quite as analytical of Brownlee et al and the profit motive on these deaths as you are on Anrew Little.
Ironic that someone who has voted for those who have neutered unions now criticises a union for letting its members down
I’m sure that Cinny is capable of answering for herself.
Why do you feel the need to “interpret” what she has said?
I rather hoped that Cinny would have responded by now as to what she did have in mind for the wager. It obviously has to have a date. After all it could otherwise turn into something like Winston’s threats to sue the National Party and its MPs.
“I’m still going to do it” Winston says while all is otherwise silent.
I suppose Little supporters could claim in 2050, when no attempt at a proper re-entry has taken place,that it will still happen, sometime.
Why does Little persist in messing with the victim’s families with the false hopes he keeps proclaiming?
For Tracey’s benefit I would note that I am not criticising the Union. I am criticising Andrew Little.
What a ugly man you are Alwyn …
Utilising your long lack of empathy …. out of cameron slater and john key which one do you think was more likely to call bereaved mother of a pike river mine worker a bitch ?? … ,…..
the dead boys mother was a “bitch” who had heckled Key …according to Slater and published in Nicky Hagars “Dirty polictics”
I presume she did so over the hollowness and insincerity of his political stunt …his false promises to the dead pike river miners familys ….
The media nearly always gave key a pass for lieing ….. but not so from a young dead mans mother.
Totally missing from Alwyns mean eyed spit at this woman and other Pike river mine workers mothers: …is the Key and previous Nat Govts part in the criminal negligence that lead to these working mens deaths …….
cutting the number of mine inspectors … not enforcing regulations… Non-Compliant is virtually Nationals Trade Mark.
But what really shows up Key as a nasty arse-hole…. when his Governmnet received a multi-million insurance payout over Pike river…… the suggestion was put that some of that money be given to miners familys as compensation ……
Key “ they can sue “….Alwyn may well agree
We all know …At the end of the day 😉 😉 it was key who ran off from NZ politics
johnny made-off .. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRqFBmiVMQU
You may, or may not, realise that I am not John Key.
Neither am I Cameron Slater.
That obviously doesn’t matter to you. You really are a nasty piece of work aren’t you? What gives you the right to abuse me for things I have never done?
What gives you the right to accuse me of things like, in your own disgusting dribble ” Alwyns mean eyed spit at this woman “? I have never done such a thing and I despise anyone who would do so.
I also despise people like you who propagate such lies.
Get back in your hole you miserable little excuse for a human being. If you are unable to tell the truth about me why don’t you just shut up?
Its not about you Alwyn ….. your smeary diversionary blame Little dribble needed putting straight….. its part of the ‘blame the union’ shit your sort cynically use.
Your skewered, one-sided, political statement on pike river was offensive to the victims … a written slap in the face for the mothers on mothers day.
your coming across as ugly as Key … using the victims for political gain ….” let them sue”…..
I don’t place much stock on a cynical ugly repeat liar and hypocrite calling me a liar….
Instead lets be reminded of a New Zealander with morals and Justice challenging the rot and corruption of the last national Government ….
Someone who did care about workers and people …. https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/344562/pike-families-justice-should-not-be-bought
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11939650 … sorry for the Herald link … but it is a rare fair story from them.
“Mum always held that Pike was a crime scene; hopefully it will be treated as such by the new government.” …. a quote from Helen Kellys son
/
Frankly you are a complete nutter.
You have zero interest in the truth, or facts, or simple common-sense.
Crawl back into the cesspit of your fevered imagination.
You are completely beneath contempt.
You start a sentence with “I don’t place much stock ….”.
Well I don’t place much stock in the ravings of an idiot like you.
Stop running from the topic
Pike River,,, and your bat-shit politically motivated appropriation of Blame …
Managers, directors, design and mining safety specs … have all dissapeared behind a little union rep … according to angry Alwyn
By Not engaging with facts , shouty abuse,, and a dose of the shut-ups.. Alwyns providing a good example of an ongoing context … where the ugly and dishonest .. attack lie and deny ,,, those who expose them.
Dirty Politics …its in their blood.
John Key : ” …Nicky Hager is a screaming left-wing conspiracy theorist,”
Key and waynes gutsy Afghanistan attacks: “,,,,, “Stephenson’s integrity and credibility has been questioned by Prime Minister John Key, he’s been accused of fabricating testimony, of being an anti-war activist, of being part of a plot to undermine the New Zealand Defence Force.”
Pike river NAct PR :… John Key: ..”The first thing is I’m here to give you absolute reassurance, we’re committed to getting the boys out, and nothing’s going to change that. So – when people try and tell you we’re not, they’re playing, I hate to say it, but they’re playing with your emotions.”
“Following from the first explosion at Pike Rive Mine, there seemed much positive comment heaped upon the likes of Peter Whittall and John Key.”
versus the ugly actions and real attitudes,,,
John Key ” they can sue”
“Furthermore, – Pike River management barred union access to the site if a delegate attempted to come on site – which was their perfect legal right to do so due to legislation passed by this National government.” /qc-describes-pike-river-mine-as-a-homicide-scene/
http://www.unite.org.nz/workers_union_slams_talley_s_work_culture_after_crewman_s_death
*PK … post key
The Mine Rescue guys would have been gutted. My Dad was in Mine Rescue, and he said leaving anyone down a mine was their worst nightmare. So proud of Andrew Little and such respect for the families.
A New Zealand nurse’s diary of one ordinary shift: https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12048860
But but but GDP…. growth… when we have that we can treat our nurses and health services properly… oh wait
Not sure of your point here, are you saying less gdp growth would be good for nurses or more, or simply you have confused what ever the correlation is between GDP growth and nurses well being with causation
No wonder you are bewildered. We have been told for decades that growth in GDP is crucial and in some instances THE most important factor in
Wages being raised
Health and Education services being well funded
And so on.
But after 40 decades of constant GDP increases we have largely stagnant wages and nurses workng in untenable conditions.
I hope that clarifies it for you
These characters do that tax rort, and some go the “charity road”, as they can claim any donated money against the “public purse” @ 33% back again.
‘Charities’ are the new rout avenue. Clinton Foundation and so forth are really vehicles to channel money with tax advantages so it doesn’t look quite so much like a bribe or buying influence.
Personally not a fan of modern charities like KidsCan either that have millions in the bank, spend a lot of administration and make many think that government agencies and more austere type charities should be abandoned for the more glitzy marketing type of charity.
And I’ll only mention in passing, because with the rain today there’s gloom aplenty already, the many charities and trusts who have got their snouts firmly in the trough of government funded contracts to provide services in the ‘social’ sector.
They don’t make profits…they have surpluses…and pay no tax.
They can cause the deaths of people in their ‘care’ through under staffing and and are never properly held to account. By “held to account” i mean lose their fat contracts forever.
Hi. Am seeking the best books on recent (post-1984) NZ Political History – am aiming to guide a millenial. Here’s what I have so far:-
Simon Collins. 1987. Rogernomics: Is There A Better Way?;
Nicky Hagar. 2006. The Hollow Men;
Bruce Jesson. 1987. Behind The Mirror Glass;
Bruce Jesson. 1990. Fragments of Labour;
Harvey McQueen. 1991. The Ninth Floor: Inside the Prime Minister’s Office –
A Political Experience.
It’s a bit spartan so far. Anyone have any recommendations?
Also: Are these recommended?:-
Simon Sheppard. 1999. Broken Circle: The Decline And Fall Of The Fourth Labour Government;
Jon Johansson. 2009. The Politics of Possibility: Leadership in Changing
Times.
This is a beautifully written book by a NZ Rhodes scholar, Andrew Dean.
Also scores 4.11 rating out of 5 on Goodreads.
Ruth, Roger and Me
Debts and Legacies
Andrew Dean
https://www.bwb.co.nz/books/ruth-roger-and-me
Also the documentary
Somebody Elses Country
Alister Barry
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuniH7qAecTTf1NeSd1PyRA
scott
Some more thoughts about our interesting economic and political scene.
On Radionz The 9th floor – Book of 5 leaders
http://www.radionz.co.nz/programmes/the-9th-floor/story/201861258/the-book-launch-the-9th-floor
Series – http://www.radionz.co.nz/programmes/the-9th-floor
Dr Bill Sutch Economics – Balanced enterprises less weighted to farming
Read the presentations at the annual Bruce Jesson Journalism awards.
Geoffrey Palmer Unbridled Power
Marilyn Waring Counting for Nothing
Max Rashbrooke
Tim Hazeldine
Fabian addresses – must be on record
Book Till the Cows Came Home
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/9282669/Russia-offered-MiGs-tanks-to-settle-NZ-debt
https://www.nbr.co.nz/article/book-extract-till-cows-came-home-part-1-hold-holiday-review-dc-150320
Would you add “Bread and Roses” by Sonja Davis?
The Fabian presentations can be found here…https://www.fabians.org.nz/index.php?option=com_weblinks&view=category&id=68&Itemid=72
…and I’d throw in some of this guy’s work… https://www.eastonbh.ac.nz/
Thanks Rosemary for giving us all those links.
I have captured that link for Fabian – it takes so long to find stuff sometimes and have wanted to get them to hand for a while.
And Brian Easton – more good stuff. We need to water the good economists, give them some love, keep them going with their alternative thinking and turning of facts etc and flowering of ideas!
Thanks everybody! Much appreciated. Some good stuff here, natch. Whenever I think of Andrew Dean I think of Max Harris – encouraging that those of younger generations are looking backwards as well as looking forwards.
Brian Easton has, amongst others:-
The Making of Rogernomics (Auckland University Press, 1989)
Here’s a link to the Bruce Jesson awards presentations:
https://www.brucejesson.com/lectures-2/lectures/ with the lecturers list being authors worth seeking out:-
You may not like what is said but an essential book to read is Michael Bassett’s book on the 1984-1990 era, “Working with David”.
http://www.michaelbassett.co.nz/books.php?b=workingwithdavid
alwyn – we can tolerate what is said. We understand where Bassett was coming from. Whether we value what he says is another matter. No unpleasant surprises, so give up the “You may not like what he says.”
Bassett has not written another Bible.
I don’t care whether you agree with him. I couldn’t care less whether you value what he says. It is however essential reading if you want to understand what happened. Have you actually read the book?
Have you read all the books listed?
Stop challenging alwyn in vino. He is the arbiter of what amounts to essential reading, amongst other things
I agree it is essential reading to understand how the Labour Party spawned the ACT Party and people like Bassett kept being used by the media to comment on Labour, following his leaving parliament, as though he represented Labour views.
Rebecca Macfie Tragedy at Pike River Mine: How and Why 29 Men Died
Jane Kelsey. The Fire Economy.
Jonathan Boston, Simon Chapple Child Poverty in New Zealand.
Stunning representation
This is a problem for the Papatuanuku society Sea level rise we are to short sighted we have the technology to exanine Papatuanuku history but we don’t no how to live for the future we live for the NOW for what we can get out of life now and not what we can give to OUR mokopunas lives this mind set has to change the old way was to try and give back better than what we received. We need to change building codes to mitigate SEA level rise now or it will be a 1000x worst than the problem we have that our farmers have at the minute .We can not just ignore the problem because the longer we have OUR heads in the sand the bigger the mess we will have to clean up. A few bold moves now will save lives and billions of$$$$$ for OUR mokopunas THIS IS FACT here.s the link.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/103404456/a-profound-crisis-sealevel-rise-and-the-remaking-of-the-world Ka kite ano P.S I know that we have a housing shortage but ignoring Sea level rise is just pushing a bigger problem to OUR mokos .
Heres a man that has similar views to Eco Maori it is lies and dishonesty that causes a society to collapse Michael Bloomberg heres the link.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/may/12/michael-bloomberg-epidemic-of-dishonesty-threat-democracy Ka kite ano
We must keep the Mana Wahine movement going Kia kaha ka kite ano here the link.
https://www.theguardian.com/film/2018/may/12/cate-blanchett-and-kristen-stewart-join-silent-womens-protest-on-cannes-red-carpet P.S Equality for all Eco Maori says
One has to think out side the square to be as successful as this man Eco Maori admires here is the link. Ka kite ano
http://www.euronews.com/2018/04/19/space-x-launches-nasa-planet-hunter
P.S he will be——-them bro kia kaha
Eco Maori has to be careful whom I back because I can see a phenomenon.
The powers that be don’t like to be shown up by a Kiwi Maori Cultured Man from Te Waiapu Vally Tairawhiti like the idiots playing with there sounds and flashing neon lights at the minute . Ka kite ano
Good Evening NewsHub the better we care for the vulnerable mokopunas at the earliest we can the higher they will climb up there ladders of life.
That is reality for the working class poor the hardest hit from inequality in income and the brown poor people get hit the hardest the income disparities are shocking go to the high end of town and you see boats flash cars one million dollar house own by two people the other end and one see nothing but poverty people going with out basic needs.
I can rember 10 years ago life was a lot easier and the cost of living was a lot cheaper .
Ka kite ano