Open mike 12/07/2023

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, July 12th, 2023 - 273 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:


Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

273 comments on “Open mike 12/07/2023 ”

  1. Dennis Frank 1

    We're supposed to have responsible government: that was given to us via the 1852 Constitution Act passed by the UK parliament. It was proclaimed Jan 1853 and became our legal basis as an autonomous nation.

    Acting Prime Minister Carmel Sepuloni says she was “unaware” dawn raids would continue after the 2021 Government apology. “I thought they’d already ended,” she told Breakfast this morning.

    “We were unaware of the practise that was ongoing by Immigration New Zealand and so deeply disappointed when we found out that these were being undertaken.”

    An independent review, triggered after an April dawn raid on a Pasifika overstayer, has recommended a law change to limit or ban dawn raids.

    The Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE) — of which Immigration New Zealand (INZ) is part — acknowledged yesterday its “guidance” had not reflected the apology and it was “prioritising putting this right”. https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2023/07/12/dawn-raids-and-oranga-tamariki-fight-clubs-minister-sepeloni-and-minister-davis-are-being-poorly-served-by-their-staff/

    So who was responsible for government not knowing what it was meant to do?? You could say Ardern dropped the ball as PM. We don't know enough to jump to that conclusion though. Did cabinet decide on a policy change re dawn raids??

    If so, that'd be on the record, right? Did they collectively forget to do it? If so, they have collective responsibility for the screw-up. Was the immigration minister (Faafoi) solely responsible? If so, did he issue the official instructions to his department? If yes, the departmental head ought to be chopped off for the screw-up.

    I doubt it really serves us for Labour to get into its usual blather of issuing apologies in all directions for everything under the sun. It's up to the media to discover what went wrong in our governance process, and tell us. We could also expect Labour to tell the truth about what went wrong.

    The pandemic-induced brain-freeze theory has been ventured here as a semi-plausible excuse for Labour. I think we all experienced a phase of that back then but we got through it and went back to doing what was required. Except Labour didn't. Bomber:

    The extraordinary admission by the Deputy Prime Minister that she thought the Dawn Raid apology meant the policy would no longer be used is a jaw dropping moment that clearly signals a high ranking politician not knowing the basic mechanics of the issue they are discussing and highlights a ghastly lack of preparation by the Deputy Prime Minister’s staff.

    She seems capable & sincere, and fronted the thing as honestly as she could, but didn't address the issue of responsibility. Labour ought to get over their placeholder default. No reason for them to assume they are merely placeholders on autopilot until National gets back in. They ought to switch to being a positive alternative instead.

    • Scott 1.1

      The reason for the dawn raids is because it is the best time to catch illegal immigrants.

      Most of them work as they cannot access welfare and the employers pay them under the table.

      Police would be wasting their time doing business hour raids as there would be no one home.

      • Dennis Frank 1.1.1

        Yeah I know. Makes the Labour stance rather surreal. However, since they're in govt we must take their stance as govt policy. So the mismatch between policy and enactment thereof becomes the focus.

      • bwaghorn 1.1.2

        The problem is they pretty much only dawn raid pacific islanders , not white or Asian overstayers.

  2. Bearded Git 2

    Looking at the latest Talbot Mills, even if NZF was to go up a point to 5%, the Nats would still need ACT to govern. The Nats will not want ACT as loose cannons on the cross-benches, and anyway Seymour will want the baubles.

    But what worries me about this poll is that if NZF do go up one point to 5% and Labour drops a point to 30, the Coalition of Cuts (Nats/ACT/NZF) will have 53% and the Left will have 42% (Lab/Gr/TPM).

    That will be a serious wipe out. But I am optimistic that the polls will improve as the cabinet stabilises and the economy improves and as Hipkins out-debates Luxon. It’s all still on, but Labour needs a minimum of 35%.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/labour-and-chris-hipkins-crash-in-latest-poll-gap-with-national-widest-since-2017/R6MWQK2TQBGK5FY3ZKOEYGVYPU/

    • Dennis Frank 2.1

      Hipkins out-debates Luxon

      Likely, but dunno if one can rely on that scenario. Most voters won't view any such debate. Folks have an endemic aversion to dumb&dumber shows.

      His problem is actually Labour. After they got that wave of around 60% due to success with pandemic management it and won their second term it soon became evident that they had no agenda and no governance plan. Their ship drifted noticeably the following couple of years then lurched into a storm of controversies.

      Which all left everyone with the general impression that they didn't have the faintest clue what they were meant to be doing. That view, in the public mind, is what the PM must dislodge now. Then there's the question of Maori solidarity to face the anti-Treaty threat emerging from a prospective rightist govt incoming. Will Willie lead a ship-jumping into TMP??

      • Bearded Git 2.1.1

        "…had no agenda…The ship drifted"

        Come off it Dennis….Massive sensible health reforms, the cost savings of which are already starting to filter through. Re-writing the RMA, again a massive reform. The housing intensification legislation-a major change to managing urban growth in NZ's cities. Three Waters-a massive infrastructural change. Then there are the recent major trade deals and so on and on

        If anything Labour's agenda has taken on too much. John Key's Nats were famous for doing no major reforms so they did not turn-off voters. Luxon seems to want to go back to the days of Ruth Richardson, gawd help us.

        I think Labour's problem is its messaging. They need to attack Luxon-he will flounder.

        • Dennis Frank 2.1.1.1

          I think Labour's problem is its messaging.

          I agree. Your citation of their agenda is worthwhile but I note inclusions of attempts (rather than achievement).

          I never saw Jacinda proclaim their 2nd-term agenda. I recall commenting here several times about that lack of plan announcement which seemed quite weird at the time. That reluctance to connect with the nation puzzled me.

          • lprent 2.1.1.1.1

            Could have had something to do with a pandemic that was ongoing during the 2020 election and post-election period.

            It is a curious thing that parliaments in times of war or pandemic or other disasters tend to focus more on immediate issues than progressing less immediate concerns.

            Please tell me that you'd prefer that to happen? Rather than parliament and ministers getting focused away from preventing people dying or getting injured.

            /sarc

            You do seem to have a limited view on what government is for. Reading you often gives the impression that your idea of government is that it should be focused on what you want it to be focused on. Seems like a pretty narcissistic viewpoint. There are other people involved in our society apart from you 😈

            • Dennis Frank 2.1.1.1.1.1

              Well I'm here representing a centrist perspective – a broad body of political opinion polled at 40% by Gallup in the US recently. Pandemic has something to do with it, but no more than a feeble excuse. Others got on with their lives, achieving what they needed to achieve.

              Presuming they did go into govt with a plan, no reason they couldn't have told the people about that plan – unless they believed it had to be kept covert.

              Three Waters, for instance, always seemed a suitable reform to me and I said so here several times whilst Labour was noticeably avoiding any public explanation of the link to co-governance. Even now they still don't spell out their plan around that, right? I mean, if they believe in the racial partnership thing many interpret ToW to have signalled, why not say so?

        • Corey 2.1.1.2

          They had no agenda it's clear, and if they did it was certainly not what they told voters it'd be in 2017.

          The first term was pretty successful compared to the second because Labour needed to satisfy two minor parties, who each had an agenda and Labour was able to coast off stable growth, announcements and a popular leader who acted well in a crisis and was an expert with coms and PR.

          The second term … Well … never trust a party that waits till the 13th hour to release a manifesto.

          Labour, will rue the day it ever got a full majority, because now noone will ever believe Labour wants social democratic economic reforms, or will ever do anything on housing.

          They'll never again be able to say "we want to do this but we need more seats to do it" because everyone will remember post COVID when they had a chance to serious reform this country, they didn't.

          Labour governments are elected to reform and fix capitalism, and every opportunity they've had from housing, to banks, to supermarkets to tax, they've chosen the most centerist route and instead focused on bureaucratic restructurings, thinking if they did as little as possible they'd own the center for a generation.

          Hubris.

          The sixth labour government, has been a total waste of time with only one or two major reforms, both of which will immediately be overturned by the incoming government, who only get elected because Labour fiddled while Rome burned.

          • Phillip ure 2.1.1.2.1

            @ corey..

            Nothing much to argue against there..

            • Phillip ure 2.1.1.2.1.1

              I used to be on the fence about chippy….no more..

              And he has made the case for greens/tpm to sit on the opposition benches…and fighting battle by battle…

              And who is on the shortlist to replace him…?

              • In Vino

                Agreed, Philip. I felt betrayed by Lange's govt in the 80s, and this latest move leaves me feeling that the same betrayal is reoccurring. It is a huge losing game for Hipkins to care more about alienating floating voters than alienating his proper base.

    • Tiger Mountain 2.2

      A few more twists and turns likely yet Git. Green and Te Pāti Māori are on the rise, and Baldrick is not popular at all, it is all still to play for if NZ National cannot break high 30s%.

      The Natzo trash can riflers and underwear sniffers are hard at work checking details of every known NZ Labour politician and associate if Simeon’s press releases are any guide. Dirty Politics is featuring already.

      I hope the turnout is enough to keep Natzo/Act well away from office. But hey, I have battled dark Torys most of my life and will do so again if they do slither in. NZ Labour need to wake up to what Act plans–FPAs, regular minimum wage rises, Te Tiriti–out the window.

      • Bearded Git 2.2.1

        Agree Tiger-the Left certainly is still well in this. The Greens conference and manifesto launch was good and TPM are nobody's fools.

        If ACT get in they and the Nats will, for instance, take David Parker's sensible RMA reforms and make changes to a number of key clauses that will have the effect of gutting its original intent and will turn it into a developer's charter.

        They will claim, of course, that they have adopted most of it.

    • Belladonna 2.3

      "as Hipkins out-debates Luxon"

      If this is in the context of the televised debates – realistically, they are only reaching the much older portion of the electorate.

      While it may be still relevant (if you think people in that age group are still undecided) – it is of little value in reaching anyone under the age of about 60.

      The days of 'the worm' affecting a substantial percentage of NZ electors are long gone.

    • James Simpson 2.4

      My observation is the winner of the debates depends purely on what team you cheer for.

      You either want tax cuts or you don't. If you do- Luxon wins the debate. If you don't – Hipkins wins the debate.

  3. Dennis Frank 3

    So Aotearoa is headed back to the future…

    the country's foreign ministry has issued a bleak warning: "the future looks grim"… the straddling act between East and West is becoming progressively precarious as global power shifts and the world grapples with compounding crises. "One way of thinking about it is the term 'polycrises'," said Chris Seed, the chief executive of MFAT. It's all laid bare in a new strategic assessment called 'Navigating a shifting world'.

    This is the first time the foreign ministry has publicly released its three-yearly state of play. https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2023/07/new-zealand-s-top-diplomat-chris-seed-says-there-s-concern-of-state-on-state-conflict-because-of-accident.html

    And a kiss of death for neoliberals:

    A key pillar of our foreign affairs strategy has been trade, but the assessment warns: "As geopolitical and security considerations loom larger New Zealand will be less able to prioritise economic priorities and will likely need to devote more energy to defence and security."

  4. Dennis Frank 4

    Gareth Hughes, a former Green MP, works for the Wellbeing Economy Alliance Aotearoa. He is not a member of any political party. His post-mortem on neoliberalism: https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/132523073/40-years-on-its-time-to-reboot-the-economic-system-that-got-us-into-this-mess

    The results are stark. We find ourselves overworked, unhappier, unhealthier, lonelier and more unequal and divided as a society. Enough time has passed that we can now state that poverty, inequality and pollution aren’t bugs – they are in fact features of the system.

    Reviews and reports were delivered instead of modern water infrastructure, light rail or getting Wellington moving

    That last bit may seem anomalous but I think it's a riff off the photo he recycles, showing the victory and its slogan Lets Keep Moving. Did they? If you like slow & sporadic, you can say yes, perhaps.

    Unfortunately, the lesson Labour took from plunging polling was that the public was tired of change full stop. I think the real message was that people were frustrated with hearing about poverty, a housing crisis and a climate emergency without seeing change.

    Poor old Gareth displays his leftism here. People didn't want any random change. They wanted those problems to be solved instead. No wonder his bid for the Greens co-leadership went nowhere.

    The polls paint a picture of a New Zealand anxious for some sort of change. One response is to double-down on the ideas of the 1980s… Another option is to say the design of our economic system has changed before and therefore can change again. This month, Wales’ first Wellbeing of Future Generations Commissioner, Sophie Howe, will be in New Zealand promoting intergenerational thinking. If there is one thing we should be able to agree on in these divided political times, it’s a need for better long-term solutions.

    To discuss these modern ideas that could go into designing a new operating system, I am organising an Economy for Public Good conference in Auckland next month, where we can build bonds with people inspired to progress past GDP, and create an economy where people and nature thrive.

    Been there, done that already, got the book about it:

    https://natlib.govt.nz/records/21683817?search%5Bi%5D%5Bsubject_text%5D=Economic+development+–+Economic+aspects&search%5Bpath%5D=items

    • Patricia Bremner 4.1

      The Labour Party needs to do more to promote some key ideas we can all rally around.

      The gains are not being presented in a modern way.

      Three things.

      National know "Explaining is losing" so hence the flack, gottchas and digging up all and any errors. They are keeping a negative light on Labour and Government.

      Labour should swipe back with exposing the intent by Act especially. Give some situations where people could be disadvantaged by the coming cuts and removals.

      Labour needs to move into promoting some basic truths and ideas we are using as guides for policy. Ad is correct that Chris Hipkins has to rally the troops and show and tell on the ground. People need “carrots”.

      They appear disconnected and self absorbed, yet they are progressing some huge areas which hardly moved in the previous Key Government.

      The attention given to these glitches is disproportionate distracting and painting a false narrative.

      Denis please refrain from repeating their narrative. "Not completed half completed" as you know many areas are like housework, never "Complete" but ongoing and requiring huge input and energy, while dealing with well resourced attack dogs and ministries which run counter by "changing phrases" "going slow" " not notifying Ministers" etc, plus human error and fallibility.

      We are seeing the results of the huge influx of money and support by the wealthy, who do not like much of the proposed legislation in the pipeline, and are desperate to get back to BAU. Taylor's letter is just the tip of the iceberg.

      There is a meme of a divided nation. They say we are 'more divided than ever."

      Wow, we were really united before?

      Locked into low wages, siloed hospital boards, a hotch potch of money driven education, with high costs for useless "certificates, wealthy buying our workers right through contracting, the inequities Maori and Pacifica faced, doing low paid night work.

      We were really "united" while the wealthy had it all their way with the monopoly board of housing as well.

      Plus selling off Public assets to Private wealthy in "Partnerships" and the Monseca debacle.

      What we have now are memes being sold very well by the wealthy pouring funds into National and Act intent defeating all the improvements made, to take us back to BAU. imo. We need to come out fighting for people's futures.

      • Dennis Frank 4.1.1

        Denis please refrain from repeating their narrative.

        Actually I rarely take any notice of what the right does when in opposition. Consequently if there happens to be any random correspondence of my critique to theirs I read that as them getting something right for a change.

        Have you noticed any attempt to explain the failure of their house-building initiative in their first term emanating from Labour? Twyford's policy of replicating the achievement of the first Labour govt, I mean. How come it succeeded and this lot failed so abysmally? No attempt whatsoever to account for it that I've noticed.

        They could perhaps have pointed to the RMA, Palmer's creation, as being an effective self-shackling tool, a legal cage that they can't escape, but they didn't even do that. It's like they're operating a `play dumb, nobody will notice' scheme.

        • Patricia Bremner 4.1.1.1

          Dennis you are more intelligent than that reply.

          Twyford over reached and was stymied by supply chains land banking costs and the monopoly board of fast rising prices housing had become. He aimed at the wrong market group. Megan Woods has rectified that. Oh and yes they have altered the RMA.devil So perhaps they are not playing dumb.?

          • Dennis Frank 4.1.1.1.1

            Well they may be able to proclaim some measure of progress in their campaigning – let's wait & see. Even if so, I bet it will seem minimal in comparison to the huge difference the first Labour govt made.

            • Drowsy M. Kram 4.1.1.1.1.1

              Even if so, I bet it will seem minimal in comparison to the huge difference the first Labour govt made.

              So many achievements in 14 years (1936 – 1949), some during WWII, and all with less than 2 million Kiwis. Extraordinary!

              • The graduated land tax was reintroduced at high rates.
              • The top rate of income tax was significantly increased, from 42.9% (and 57% for 'unearned income' such as rent, interest or dividends) in 1939 to 76.5% by 1949.

              Simpler, family-friendly times? “The past is a foreign country…

              Before humans arrived in New Zealand, kiwi probably numbered somewhere around 12 million. By 1920, that had dropped to around five million and now they probably number somewhere between 60,000 and 70,000 birds.

              • Dennis Frank

                And when you factor in the even more radical Liberal govt entering the 20th century, of similar length, it makes all today's politicians seem a bunch of useless wimps in comparison to those two govts.

                I hadn't encountered that novel you linked to, but found it interesting. Sex & class & psychosocial nexus themes – making the transition into international culture mid-century proves much common ground…

      • Jilly Bee 4.1.2

        Wot Patricia said

        yes

  5. Anker 5

    https://www.speakupforwomen.nz/post/new-zealand-telco-giant

    “If you think that trans-identifying people should be free from discrimination in housing but you don’t want your eight year old daughter sharing a changing room with an adult male, you’re a TERF.”

    ‘ on Saturday, 24 hours before Sarah Jane Parker, an ex convict who served 30 years for attempted murder, kidnap and torture is telling the madding crowd at London Trans Pride that “If you see a TERF, punch her in the fucking face”, our favourite theybie is asking his pals on Threads (Meta’s answer to Twitter apparently) to back him in not tolerating TERFs. He is rewarded with a response from a bright young thing at Spark, NZ’s oldest telco’

    An outstanding piece from SUFW in response to Shaneel Lal calling for Terfs not to be welcome on the new twitter.

    I suspect there are many more terfs on The Standard
    than some would care to admit. Who does want a male in a change room with an 8 year old girl.

    • Dawn Trenberth 5.1

      Exactly, and who wants a male competing against women in the women's category and taking the women's prizes and who wants a heterosexul male harrassing lesbians and wanting them to pretend he is one of them? The list goes on. Its shocking that we have gone so far down this path that reasonable views are denegrated and labeled "terf"

      • lprent 5.1.1

        …and who wants a male competing against women in the women's category and taking the women's prizes…

        Not exactly 'reasonable' views.

        Of course I have the perfectly reasonable view that all sports should be banned as being inherently elitist and discriminatory because the competition in them is based almost mainly on genetics.

        Plus of course, getting rid of them will get rid of having to listen to this particularly stupid line of argument.

        /sarc

        If you want to make an argument, then do try to make one rather than dribbling out the same pile of propaganda lines. Especially ones that read exactly like simple bigotry to me. Just reminds me of the waffling that I have seen for every other race, religion and gender discrimination emotive rationalisations both in tone and the pretty obvious inability to present facts and clear arguments.

        So does the participants clear inability to deal with any criticism or refutation of their position.

        • Molly 5.1.1.1

          "…and who wants a male competing against women in the women's category and taking the women's prizes…

          Not exactly 'reasonable' views."

          It's not clear what your argument is against the view expressed by Dawn Trenberth.

          "Of course I have the perfectly reasonable view that all sports should be banned as being inherently elitist and discriminatory because the competition in them is based almost mainly on genetics."

          This perspective can be made against any endeavour or occupations that give advantages to particular body types: potholing, shelf-stacking, dancing etc.

          Amongst those that are genetic predisposed to a particular sport, there is an added component in competition that relates to focus, training and personal sacrifice.

          The difference between performance between men and women is sex based, not reliant on other genetic markers. This website gives a good indication of how significant these sex categories are:

          https://boysvswomen.com/#/

          I'm unsure whether your perspective is that any sexed categories are unnecessary, or that sports itself is unnecessary – or both.

        • francesca 5.1.1.2

          But why is it a stupid argument

          L prent?

          Has it been a mistake all these years to have sex segregated sports where sex advantages matter?

          • lprent 5.1.1.2.1

            Generally I’m not that in favour of elitist competitive sports at all. They appear to be largely staged for the benefit of media.

            Makes me wonder about why bother continually pulling that up as support for an argument at all. Probably because it is something emotive and almost completely meaningless in the context of what you are arguing for. Sport is all about highlighting the range of human genotype and environmental consequences. After all, a few judicious injections appear to make more of a difference.

            Which really just seems to me to highlight just how shallow the basis of your thinking is.

            • Francesca 5.1.1.2.1.1

              "Sport is all about highlighting the range of human genotype and environmental consequences"

              Within categories , surely?

              Would you argue that 40 year olds should be able to compete against 14 year olds (because there's a huge range of genotypes amongst 14 year olds and 40 year olds?)

              • lprent

                Missing my point again. Sports have nothing to do with either our laws or anything significant with the basis of politics. So why are do the various arguments focus on a social, legal, and political triviality.

                The arrangements for sport are done exclusively for the benefit of the sports bodies and for teh participants. That have no social significance outside apart from the medical issue of the prevalence of sport induced couch potatoes.

                Lack of anything else that has more significance? That is what I suspect.

                • In Vino

                  Lyn

                  You rotten party-pooper suprême. How would the Romans have survived so long without panem et circenses? (I laughed at your lovely idea of disapproving of élitest sports..)

                  And by the way, I seem to remember John Key doing much to boost his popularity through association with an unnamed NZ national rugby team.

                  Manipulation of public opinion is easily done via the circuses..

            • Shanreagh 5.1.1.2.1.2

              But people have always wanted to run like the wind and swim etc and competitively as well.

              Why is this not a good thing?

              Is the idea of snooker devotees or chess masters also wrong? They are relying on superior eye/hand co-ordination and brains.

              People compete in teams as well. I am trying but failing to see why an activity (sports) that has so many pluses from midget teams to masters teams is receiving such a bad press from you.

              Sure I can understand that you are not a sports person but heaping scorn on women who want to point out unfairness does not seem to follow.

              Is it is women in sport – teams or individual you don’t like?
              or
              it is sport – teams or individual you don’t like?

              • lprent

                Is the idea of snooker devotees or chess masters also wrong? They are relying on superior eye/hand co-ordination and brains.

                Sure and they are private organisation as well governed by their own bodies and making their own rules to maximise participation in their industry.

                They also obey the general rules of society as laid down in legislation and court decisions. We don’t tend to have political discussion about them either. Politics inside such organisations is where those decisions are made – not here.

                Perhaps you should explain why decisions made inside snooker halls have any relevance to a a societal level political debate?

                • Francesca

                  Snooker halls?

                  Never been there and never will .

                  It's about fairness, surely we all want that?

                  Within sporting bodies I support those female athletes who want fairness(and minimisation of serious harm) in their sport.Male bodies , even if their testosterone has been lowered , still have more testosterone than a female athlete is allowed

                  To compete in womens sports,transwomen can have testosterone levels of up to 10nmol/L. It really doesn't matter if a transwoman identifies as the other sex, he/she needs that level of testosterone for healthy functioning , because they live in a male body.Whereas women (Semenya aside , who has internal testes)have far less .up to half of that

                  Yes, there are differences between individual women and their testosterone levels , those differences are minimal when comparing male and female levels.

                  I want to see hardworking women whose sport is a livelihood enjoy those rewards without their places in a team for instance being taken by a male bodied person .

                  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9331831/#:~:text=The%20current%20IOC%20regulations%20allow,12%20months%20prior%20to%20competition.

                  • lprent

                    So talk to the sports bodies about your concerns. Or the innumerable sports forums.

                    But if you have no plans to actually engage in the NZ national political arena about changing sports rules, why bother bringing it here.

                • Anker

                  I prent are you saying politics and sport don't mix?

                • Anker

                  I prent are you saying politics and sport don't mix?

                  Or is it more shut up terf, I don't care about your concerns about protecting women's spaces and competitions. Suck it up

                  • weka

                    he's pushing people here on TS to up their game when debating this topic rather than using GC talking points.

                    There are plenty of overt problems with Lynn's argument without trying to read into them.

                    For instance, the anti-Tour protests in the 80s shifted NZ culture away from the idea that sport and politics are separate.

                    And sport is far more than elite level, it's core to many NZer's sense of culture as well as something they do and watch and value.

                    The arguments around women's sport rests on establishing why sport matters and why there is a political aspect to it that makes it worthy of being debated on a political blog.

                    I don't have time to go through the thread and make the arguments, but I do think that the debate needs to be lifted, and refined to get to the nitty gritty, and this is an ideal opportunity to do so.

                    • Francesca

                      Don't quite understand this Weka.

                      If we're talking about fairness and equal access for women in sports, the gnarly issue of segregation in sports is going to come up, and along with that , the issue of transwomen

                      Are they fundamentally male bodied or not and does this matter?

                      Is it fair that women can miss out on sporting scholarships or prize money or a place in a team to a male bodied candidate?

                      Seems like employment issues there

                      Are there issues of potential bodily harm in impact sports where a male body can smash a female one?

                      If this is considered GC, so be it .Pretty unavoidable to my mind , and I'm surprised that we even have to debate this.

                      I resist the idea that women must be disadvantaged to help validate and soothe a man with gender dysphoria.

                      Transwomen are not being excluded from sport

                      They can organise to have their own category or compete in the category of their sexed body

                    • Molly

                      "The arguments around women's sport rests on establishing why sport matters and why there is a political aspect to it that makes it worthy of being debated on a political blog."

                      More accurately, the arguments that lprent considers worthy around women's sport rests on establishing why sport matters and why there is a political aspect to it that makes it worthy of being debated on a political blog.

                      While this is one discussion, others hold different perspectives.

                      "he's pushing people here on TS to up their game when debating this topic rather than using GC talking points."

                      That's a strange view of what is happening, and a dismissive take on contributions – eg. GC talking points.

                    • weka []

                      That’s a strange view of what is happening, and a dismissive take on contributions – eg. GC talking points.

                      Only if you think I was talking about all comments in this thread. I wasn’t, #notallcommenters etc.

                      If you look at the first comment Lynn responded to, from Dawn Trenberth, it’s a comment that speaks to those of us already familiar with the issues, but that wouldn’t really makes sense to someone who didn’t get it. So we have a few choices, we can object to being called out on that or we can get on with the work of explaining the issues in ways that more people will understand (whether they agree with them or not).

                      I disagree with Lynn’s position on sport and women’s sport. But I know that his style of debate often forces people to up their game. Earlier in the year he laid down some challenges about what ‘women’s sex based rights’ even means particularly in legal terms, and particularly in NZ, which I’m still thinking about and looking at and discussing with feminists. It relates directly to Tickle v Giggle and many of the cases happening in the UK. It’s good to look at this now before we get too many more legal cases in NZ.

                      There are people in this thread making good arguments, so please don’t assume my analysis automatically includes your comments (this has happened before I think). But even with the more in depth commentary, there’s still and edge here that I think is worth poking at to see if people can take it further. For instance, I think addressing the specific issues that Lynn raises is much more productive that speculating if he hates terfs (which is where I came into the conversation today).

                      More accurately, the arguments that lprent considers worthy around women’s sport rests on establishing why sport matters and why there is a political aspect to it that makes it worthy of being debated on a political blog.

                      Sure, and to an extent his blog, his rules. But he’s not unreasonable, and the issues he is raising do need nutting out.

                    • Molly

                      @weka

                      "Sure, and to an extent his blog, his rules. But he’s not unreasonable, and the issues he is raising do need nutting out."

                      Fair enough. I did try to engage on his perspective, but he himself redirected to other issues to suit…as most of us are inclined to.

                      It's the certainty of phrases like "…do need nutting out." that makes me take note.

    • Visubversa 5.2

      I understand that Mr Lal works at the Ministry Of Education. This may go some way to explain the emphasis on "Gender Identity" in the Relationships and Sexual Education curriculum where 6 year olds can be taught that they have a "gendered soul" and that there are 3 sexes.

      • bwaghorn 5.2.1

        This is why activist should never be let into the tent, they have a valid place in society, but nearly always lack reason!

      • tWiggle 5.2.2

        Lovely, another transphobic burst, complete with 1. overseas UK schlock-horror story, which may or may not be true, about one out of the 100,000 or so UK trans women 2. a squeeze-in of cult-figure Posie Parker, 3. followed by denegrating remarks about the trans people involved having balls and penises, and bringing the circle of irrelevance back to NZ by 4. misgendering Shaneel Lal.

        • Francesca 5.2.2.1

          Maybe the "queer "umbrella has become too broad .There's a tendency for extremists and fetishists( I mean eating your own balls?) to be lumped in with genuine transgender people who just want to get by and have a decent life.

          When that happens you can usually expect a backlash.

        • Molly 5.2.2.2

          Who and what are you responding to?

          As for 4. correctly sexing is still permissable, is it not?

          Camille Paglia's response is commensurate with my own:

          "Professor with PhD from Yale: “How dare you sniveling little maniacs tell us how we’re going to use pronouns…. go take a hike.”

          https://twitter.com/atensnut/status/1678417903572381698

          • tWiggle 5.2.2.2.1

            Tried to read a book of Paglia's once when she first appeared as the latest wunderkind. I gave up, it was full of the most misogynistic rubbish. One thing she ain't, in her own words, and that's a feminist, out there for women.

            • Molly 5.2.2.2.1.1

              I'm sympathetic to your problems with reading comprehension, but I posted a link to a short video with which I agreed so that might help.

              Note: that agreement in one instance, does not denote full agreement with everything she has said or written, or will say or write in the future. So overcoming your troubles with her authorship are unnecessary in this discussion.

              I don't particularly have any interest in what she calls herself – feminist or not.

              In this instance, the conversation was about language in which she apparently holds a PhD from Yale.

              • tWiggle

                But Paglia's tweet you post is invective-filled abuse, and progresses no argument. It's irrelevant that she's an Ivy League graduate.

                Looking at her wiki, you do know she calls herself transgender and says she was dysphoric and never thought of herself as a girl or woman. Talking about trans people are all pedophiles, she started off advocating for no age of consent, based on the ancient grecian ideal of boy-man love.

                • Molly

                  "But Paglia's tweet you post is invective-filled abuse, and progresses no argument. It's irrelevant that she's an Ivy League graduate."

                  There you go. Was it so difficult to comment directly on what was said?

                  What invectives, state the abuse please? And how you determine she made no argument, given that most of the comment was doing exactly that.

                  "Looking at her wiki, you do know she calls herself transgender and says she was dysphoric and never thought of herself as a girl or woman. Talking about trans people are all pedophiles, she started off advocating for no age of consent, based on the ancient grecian ideal of boy-man love."

                  Do I need to reiterate?

                  "Note: that agreement in one instance, does not denote full agreement with everything she has said or written, or will say or write in the future. So overcoming your troubles with her authorship are unnecessary in this discussion."

                  Or do you want to move into a discussion about the age of consent?

                  • tWiggle

                    My comment at 5.2.2.1 described what I see in those comments at TS that start with an anti-trans 'news' story, then predictably checklist the 1-4 stages I numbered (sometimes Posie gets a miss). This is pattern that occurs here weekly, if not more.

                    This paraphrases Paglia's tweet, minus invective:

                    'I'm not listening to you because I do not respect your character or ideas. I refuse to believe you have any right to take part in this discourse.'

                    Invective words : how dare you snivelling little maniacs… go take a hike. Really, Molly? 'That wasn't so hard, was it?'

                    • Molly

                      "Invective words : how dare you snivelling little maniacs… go take a hike. Really, Molly? 'That wasn't so hard, was it?'"

                      Apparently, it was. After all, its taken 3 comments for you to cut and paste. Which makes me suspect you haven't even watched the video as you have not replied to the queries about your accusations of abuse, or the failure to make an argument.

                      C'sest la vie.

                      Life's too short to participate at the glacial pace…👋

                • tWiggle

                  Perhaps you missed the post from weka about twitter being opaque to many now. If you want to post the clip, you will have to go to the source, not through twitter. Otherwise we only have your invective filled quote from the tweet.

                  • Molly

                    So, your three comments were done blind as regards to linked content?

                    That accounts for the noticeable pattern.

                    • tWiggle

                      There was no indication that the tweet link was to a video clip. I commented on the tweet content you quoted which appeared to be Paglia's words. As you had no further exposition, that's all many here can see. WSYWG.

                    • Molly

                      @tWiggle

                      "There was no indication that the tweet link was to a video clip. "

                      .https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-12-07-2023/#comment-1959211

                      "I'm sympathetic to your problems with reading comprehension, but I posted a link to a short video with which I agreed so that might help."

        • Anker 5.2.2.3

          tWiggle, if the overseas story is true, do you condemn Sarah Jane Parker for calling on people to punch a terf in the f…ing face to rapturous applause?

          We don't need to look overseas for example of trans rights activists punching a "terf" in the f…ing face, we already have a clear example from Albert Park where and elderly woman was repeatedly punch in the face by a tra.

          You posted about gender critical feminists being a cult before but provided no definition of what a cult is or how this relates to said feminists.

          As for misgendering Shaneel I am sick of playing along with this compelled language of the tras. They talk about it being only polite to use prefered pro nouns etc, while using terms like chest feeding, people with cervixs etc. If someone is a biological man it is misgendering to refer to them as anything else but he/him.

          • SPC 5.2.2.3.1

            Is there any evidence that the male who punched the elderly women has ever identified as trans?

            • Anker 5.2.2.3.1.1

              Thanks for asking that SPC. There is no indication that the assailant identified as trans and actually to me that is irrelevant. The person who assaulted the 70 year old woman, repeatedly punching her in the face is a man.

              This is not about trans people per se. It is about gender ideology and the trans rights activist who attempt to impose it on others in an authoritarian way. Many of these people are not trans.

            • tWiggle 5.2.2.3.1.2

              Tra just means 'trans rights activist' in TERF language. I closely watched videos analysed on BigHairyNews of the incident from different angles.

              Just looked like a bog standard young man in standard top and pants (the person is 20 and from Tauranga). The only punch visible looked like a straight-from the shoulder man-type punch.

              The woman he hit was striding to meet him and had been going around wrenching small electric fence-type stakes away from people in the minute or so before.

              • Molly

                "I closely watched videos analysed on BigHairyNews of the incident from different angles."

                Can you link to BigHairyNews?

                "Just looked like a bog standard young man in standard top and pants (the person is 20 and from Tauranga). The only punch visible looked like a straight-from the shoulder man-type punch.

                The woman he hit was striding to meet him and had been going around wrenching small electric fence-type stakes away from people in the minute or so before."

                So? What is your point of discussion? That he was justified? She asked for it?

                This is another video of the incident you describe:

                https://youtu.be/Dos0FlaWIxM

          • tWiggle 5.2.2.3.2

            Yes I did give a link to the cult label applied to Parker Posie. In fact it was a post at womens liberation aotearoa just before PP arrived that called the support for her cult-like. Not my words.

            I think it's fair to say there is a Trump- or Hitler-type cult around PP. Why do I think that?

            Because she is a provocateur and demagogue, based on her choice of venues for her rallies, and the fellow-travelling racists (eg. Hanson in Canberra) and neo-nazis associated with them.

            Because of the lack of disavowal and discussion of PP's worst behaviours and claims when I have listed them here. Examples: that NZ is the 'worst place for women'; that Jacinda Ardern destroyed NZ; and all the nasty, nasty things she says about trans people (see between 1:43.30 and 1:46.00). Things just go silent…

            • Anker 5.2.2.3.2.1

              Oh well I guess we disagree twiggle. Whatever do you mean by Hitler type of cult around PP? Whenever anyone brings up Hitler in an arguements (or Nazis for that matter) they are losing the arguement.

              I will have a read of the women's liberation aotearoa article in terms of "cult like". I am not too bothered. I wanted to go to her rally to Let women speak (by the way I can't imagine Hitler holding events that allow women to speak can you?

              I think her statement that NZ is the worst place for women (her opinion I think ) was pretty reasonable given she was assaulted and threatened by an angry mob. She said she feared for her life (and that seems realistic given the threatening angry mob surrounding her). She left under police escort and police were so concerned about her safety that even at the airport she was kept in the police station. Before she arrived she was smeared in the media (white supremacy sign when all she was doing was playing with her zipper, thanks Newshub). What the hell did you expect her to say about our country "what a lovely friendly place"

              Yes she probably shouldn't have meet with the guy in Canberra, but everyone knows the Nazis in Melbourne had nothing to do with her, even the Australian Jewish Society. There are a lot of Kiwis who think Jacinda Ardern destroyed NZ.

              • tWiggle

                Trump-like cult, then, as I listed, where the cult leader can say no wrong. Alternate facts. You can replace Hitler with Trump in my comment with no loss of meaning.

                If you watched Fox News or UK GB, pumping out anti-Ardern vitriol in 2020-21, yes you might think Ardern destroyed NZ. Says little for a petson’s critical thinking skills, if they can't differentiate between manipulative, emotion-filled propaganda, designed to attract 'outrage' viewers, and what's actually happening around them.

              • Molly

                Women's Liberation Aotearoa is an organisation with no transparency of number or identity of contributors, and a social media policy that is both antagonistic and undisciplined.

                Their statements were part of the inflammatory narrative preceding the Let Women Speak event in March, and was used by some to justify the event as bigoted and non-feminist. They reiterated falsehoods about Kellie Jay Minshull, and deliberately stoked the flames of outrage. We saw the consequences of that on March 25th.

                Despite including in their mission statement that they "uphold Mana Wahine" they had numerous public spats with @ManaWāhineKōrero which TBH, didn't seem to have much to do with upholding, but I assume relates to the age-old story about being the wrong type of Mana Wāhine… wink

                I tried to engage with them on Twitter, and the exchanges very quickly devolved into bullying behaviour. That said, it could be reflective of only the person in charge of the account rather than the organisation, but that experience alongside their pompous statements made me cautious of engaging with or supporting them.

                They have done exceptional work in some areas and that can be found on their website and their blog, but their determined aversion to the inclusion of women from all political perspectives, is off-putting to me personally.

                What's in a name?

                Left-wing stalwart and approved Mana Wahine Women's Liberation Aoteraoa.

                Bit of a mouthful, I can see why they stuck with the misnomer.

            • Molly 5.2.2.3.2.2

              "…and all the nasty, nasty things she says about trans people (see between 1:43.30 and 1:46.00) Things just go silent…."

              I had a look at this segment. It's not the original sources in full context, but an edited compilation of a person's interpretation ALL of which have been discussed on TS – some directly with you.

              The silence may be a natural consequence of constant redirection in terms of discussion points.

              Case in point:
              .https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-12-07-2023/#comment-1959382

          • tWiggle 5.2.2.3.3

            Do you support Posie Parker's statement that trans men should be sterilised?

            • Anker 5.2.2.3.3.1

              No

              • tWiggle

                Thanks for the answer, anker, that's more than I have had before. Do I think Sarah Jane Barker is okay saying punch a TERF? No, but I find the person behind the 'torturer/murderer/self-castrator' whoopwhoop in the UK tabloid press to be a very human person, admirable for her grit and self-education.

                She experienced horrific violence in childhood and on being queer in prison. She has emerged to give back to the community and advocate for all prisoners, not just trans women.

                Given the major anti-trans movement at the top tier of UK society, not taking rights from cis-women, but taking away existing rights from the trans community, trans being demonised by the UK press, (which also tacitly legitimises social violence against them, see the recent killing of 15 yo trans Brianna Ghey) – I can understand why SJB expressed her emotions that way.

                Note also that saying 'punch a TERF' is not 'sterilise a TERF', is not 'use a gun to check if that butch woman desperate to pee is a TERF', is not 'TERFs are child abusers' (although https://www.caelanconrad.ca/insideacult see video 2 some TERFs advocate abusive means to 'convert' their trans children to cis-hood).

                If I were to balance Sarah Jane Barker against Posie Parker, the balance is not in PP's favour by a long way.

            • Molly 5.2.2.3.3.2

              Post the link to original source then I'll reply.

              (You are aware sterilisation is an expected and common side effect of medical interventions under "affirmation only" "healthcare"? Are you saying this side effect is not acceptable?)

              • Molly

                Ah, yes… I thought we'd been here before…

                1. .https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-21-03-2023/#comment-1940017

                2. .https://thestandard.org.nz/un-expert-allow-women-and-girls-to-speak-on-sex-gender-and-gender-identity-without-intimidation-or-fear/#comment-1951208

                3. https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-11-06-2023/#comment-1953797

                Note: These are the instances were you were replied to with context. There are others where your "sterilisation of transmen" was repeated in a litany of grievances, and was not responded to specifically.

                So, my question to you remains:

                Sterilisation is an expected and common side effect of medical interventions under "affirmation only" "healthcare"? Are you saying this side effect is not acceptable?

                • tWiggle

                  Molly, links 1.and 3. lead to blank spaces for me. I don't have access to sidebar options in TS. 2. I read this and it is one viewpoint from one UN advocate. She has her opinion, but I happen to disagree that the GC movement is in any way silenced, particularly in the UK, where a complicit press and tv media has broadcast articles daily that portray trans people negatively.

                  None of these at all rebut Posie Parker's 'taken out of context' words in Contrapoint's vlog. PP said them. In living colour. There is no context that I can think of that justifies any of those statements. As PP says herself, she is 'never wrong'.

                  • Molly

                    Just checked and they work for me on Chrome…perhaps, remove the leading . at the start of the link.

                    Alternatively, you could do a search for "tWiggle sterilise Posie" and you will get the results that show that you have asked – and been answered more than once on this query, negating your assertion above after Anker replied "No":

                    "Thanks for the answer, anker, that's more than I have had before."

                    https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-12-07-2023/#comment-1959403

                    Of course, if your memory is so forgetful, it might account for the failure to take note of the content of replies.

                    Also,: All the commenters on this site appear to hold strong individual and sometimes opposing views, and will often express them if asked directly. Repeated queries about interpretations of what a British woman has said on old YouTube clips is a technique that provides two groups of reckons and not much else.

        • Phillip ure 5.2.2.4

          Wot wiggle said..

      • Jilly Bee 5.2.3

        @visubversa – I must remember to ask my 6 year old twin granddaughters whether they have been taught about having a 'gendered soul' when they get back to school next week. I can already amagine what their reaction will be, but will be sure to report my findings.

      • Anker 5.2.4

        If Mr Lal is a public servant he needs to get pinged about speaking out on political matters.

    • bwaghorn 5.3

      Im a Terf and proud of it it would appear.

    • Molly 5.4

      The incident with Sarah Jane Parker – who was one of the official speakers of the London TransPride march – was considered worthy enough to be posted on the TransPride Instagram account – completely with noisy and enthusiastic approval from the crowd. I understand it has since been removed, but a copy of the video can be seen here:

      " URGENT 1/4 We have reported this man – a convicted torturer and kidnapper, who is on probation – for committing a Public Order offence. We will not stand by while men like him threaten us or demand access to our single-sex spaces. #WarOnWomen #StopViolenceAgainstWomen"

      https://twitter.com/WomensRightsNet/status/1678001106738184194

      The UK police who threatened Kellie Jay Keen with possible arrest if she didn't attend a police interview regarding a complaint about her being "untowards towards pedophiles" initially issued this statement:

      “This is not a hate crime. A TERF is not a protected characteristic under the legislation. A TERF would be a person’s opinion, whether this opinion is viewed as discriminatory in itself or not.

      “The female is suggesting (inciting) members of the crowd to punch individuals who act on this belief. This is not targeted at an individual, this is in a hypothetical situation.”

      https://sex-matters.org/posts/updates/incitement-to-violence-at-trans-pride/

      Just a note: when Sarah Jane Baker refers to being without testicles in prison, he is referring obliquely to his personal situation which he has related in the past, but now deleted:

      "Yes, but here is “Sarah Jane Baker” confirming it. He talked about how he started taking bites of his own testicles so that they would not be reattached, and how he cut up his scrotum to swallow it.

      @Isla_macy was trying not to be vomit as he detailed this in the space."

      https://twitter.com/RobbieTravers/status/1677964524928761858

      I'd also like to point out that 1,000 trans prisoners are more than enough to justify a specific accommodation in the prison estate, such as this:

      https://youtu.be/2thDt4twxww

      • Anker 5.4.1

        OMG Molly, that is horrific about Sarah Jane Parker and his testicles. He is a very disturbed individual.

        On a related note the trial of one of the people involved in the murder of a young homeless woman that Ashley Winter is already in prison for is happening in NZ right now. One of the lawyers is reported as saying to the accused "she's a bully" when referring to Ashley. Ashley is a man. I would warn people not to read about this trial because the details of the torture and murder of the young teen by Ashley Winter (male) are absolutely horrific

        • Visubversa 5.4.1.1

          The Herald referred to Toko Shane (Ashley) Winter as a woman and showered him with female pronouns all the way through his trail, conviction and sentencing for the sadistic torture and killing of the young woman. By the time it got to his unsuccessful appeal, they were at least telling the truth about his sex. He is in Paremoremo prison where he belongs.

      • Molly 5.4.2

        Correction: According to Pink News Sarah Jane Baker was not an official spokesperson for London TransPride, although her speech was posted (defended and then deleted) by their social media accounts – she was the first to accept an invitation to speak.

        https://www.thepinknews.com/2023/07/11/london-trans-pride-sarah-jane-barker-terf/https://www.thepinknews.com/2023/07/11/london-trans-pride-sarah-jane-barker-terf/

        "Following the official speakers, members of the crowd were also offered the chance to share their views, which was when Baker got up to speak. "

        Also, correction on post needed where I used Sarah Jane Parker – not Sarah Jane Baker.

        • Molly 5.4.2.1

          Bugger: " he was the first to accept an invitation to speak."

          PinkNewspeak is catching…

      • tWiggle 5.4.3

        Sarah Jane Barker was initially sent to prison at the age of 20 for 7 years for badly beating up her step-mother's brother. Her father physically and emotionally brutalised his family, her mother and step-mothers.

        When SJB was identified in prison as trans she suffered greatly, being raped, gang raped, including with a pool cue, suffering daily from verbal and physical abuse, being spat at, razor attacks scaldings, beatings. Her sentence was extended 23 years when she tried to kill one of her abusers.

        SJB talks briefly about herself and her trans prisoner support charity.

        • Molly 5.4.3.1

          So?

          What is your relevant point to something I have written?

          • tWiggle 5.4.3.1.1

            That Sarah Jane Barker is a whole person with passionate beliefs and a hard-won life. SJB talks prisons with Shaun Attwood. She is part of a prison abolition organisation (as well as sex worker).

            I don't expect you to listen to the whole thing at all (I haven't), but just a few minutes 25.30-31.00, to get a measure of the passionate advocate she is.

            She did castrate herself in her early thirties because trans prisoners are denied hormone treatment.

            • Molly 5.4.3.1.1.1

              "That Sarah Jane Barker is a whole person with passionate beliefs and a hard-won life."

              Once again… So? What relevance does this have to inciting violence on women?

              Anyway, am already aware of the Shaun Attwood video, although I haven't watched it. Here it is linked in another article (not on Twitter, so you can read it before commenting if you like) about Sarah Jane Baker – previously known as Allan Baker:

              https://the-lies-they-tell.org/2023/05/20/profile-of-trans-activist-sarah-jane-baker/

              "The first sentence

              He describes his first custodial sentence as an adult was a 7 year sentence for ‘kidnapping, burglary, unlawful imprisonment and GBH with intent’. The victim was his stepmother’s brother. In the interview with James English he reflects that the victim in no way deserved the attack and says he feels he probably deserved 30 years just for that crime alone. In the Shaun Attwood interview, however, which premiered just a few months after the one with English in September 2020, Baker is very happy to let Attwood suggest that bullies deserve their comeuppance and directly blames his stepmother for encouraging violence towards him from his father, rather creating the impression that the victim was in some way entangled in that. In fact, he even states ‘I didn’t even challenge the conviction’, but obviously isn’t able expand on what grounds he might have been able to do so.

              The second sentence

              Baker’s second sentence was handed down for a crime committed in prison against another inmate. According to Baker the victim was his bully and responsible for encouraging extreme sexual and physical violence towards him. Of this conviction, in the Attwood podcast, Baker suggests that the conviction was not safe as he was on a ‘lot of medication’ and barely aware of what was going on around him. Attempted murder was the charge. Baker walked into the victim’s cell and attempted to strangle him until he was dead. Baker was just 21 years old at the time.

              Other crimes

              Baker revels in his criminal activities inside, including drug dealing, phone smuggling and sex work."

              However, as you say, he has completed his sentence, so what has he been up to since?

              I'll let you read the rest of the article to find out. And also to follow through on your previous assertion of her trans prisoner charity, given the information provided there:

              "3. Transprisoner Alliance

              This was Baker’s own project, and still grandiosely describes himself as its CEO. However, the website domain no longer exists but a Pink News piece lauding the project still does.

              Since being released in September, 2019, she has formed the Transprisoner Alliance which provides “both practical and emotional support to one of the most marginalised groups of people residing in our prisons”.

              The non-profit organises letter and visits for trans people behind bars, and it says that 90 per cent of trans prisoners receive no letters or visits from family or friends.

              It also provides legal assistance with advice for an in-house barrister on legal name changes and gender recognition certificates.

              One of the things that helped her gender dysphoria in prison was makeup, sometimes brought in by sympathetic officers, so the Transprisoner Alliance also brings makeup and gender appropriate clothing to trans inmates.
              From the Pink News article ‘Britain’s longest-serving trans prisoner is now helping trans people locked up in the wrong prisons’"

    • Nic the NZer 5.5

      What I'm a bit confused about is what are these ISPs being expected to do about their users browsing or posting behaviours? I don't think anybody believes Spark and Vodafone could police particular Threads users opinions let alone would have any actual interest in doing so. The only way this seems to function is if self selecting customers leave, which many have.

      Maybe Lal is actually (secretly) marketing for some of the ISPs he didn't contact. Or more likely just has a dismal understanding of what they could actually do in practice.

      ISPs could probably block Threads for most of their users but I don't think this could be targeted in any useful way, anyway. But the content moderation is basically up to Meta.

      • weka 5.5.1

        it's a culture war. Lal is telling his followers and identity politics brethren to push No Debate. Doesn't need the ISPs to do anything other than what they did.

        Spark and VodaOne's weekend social media managers decided to jump on the bandwagon. Spark quite sensibly and in a meaningful way walked that back on the Monday. I don't know if VodaOne did.

        • Nic the NZer 5.5.1.1

          That's basically my assessment as well.

          Usually one would expect a weekend social media manager losing hundreds of customers to the competition over a single weekend post, this would be considered bad for their performance.

          I'm also a bit unclear about what role Lal's supporters may have played. As suggested the act of leaving appears to have been mostly voluntary choice by many customers. Its not like Spark or VodaOne has denied service to anybody, let alone realistically could do so in the way suggested by Lal.

          • weka 5.5.1.1.1

            not quite following you there. Lal tweets, Spark and Voda supported that. Bob McCoskrie called Spark out on it, the GC twitter machine geared up and started organising a boycott. It was fairly spontaneous. I haven't seen what if any impact there was on Threads.

  6. Dennis Frank 6

    Hands across the water:

    New Zealand is giving $38 million to China over a Canadian-Chinese businessman who laundered millions here for years, then last month tried to become mayor of Toronto. A Cabinet paper shows New Zealand police helped China investigate him for four years.

    It shows a split of $70m – 45 percent to New Zealand and 55 percent to Beijing – to recognise the key evidence China provided and translated.

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2023/07/why-new-zealand-china-are-splitting-70m-in-criminal-proceeds.html

    Innovative foreign policy here. Govts don't usually hit the headlines by splitting the proceeds of crime. Still, they did follow the money to do the hijack.

    • bwaghorn 6.1

      Bloody good bit of team work there!!

    • Patricia Bremner 6.2

      smiley Pleasing to see Governments working together to take down fraudsters world wide. It has been good to see convictions for some who have operated here. White collar crime takes huge amounts from people.

  7. Sanctuary 7

    The witchfinder-general over the TBD is having another normal one:

    https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2023/07/12/why-people-should-be-genuinely-angry-at-spark-2-degrees-and-vodaphone-for-pledging-to-purge-threads-of-opinions-they-dont-like/

    "…This sort of (witchfinder) politics, rather like the anti-vaxx or 5G stuff, works diagonally: it draws in educated, hitherto liberal-minded or left-wing individuals, but its natural tendency is to draw people to the right. There is a powerful cultural pull to the right which has been felt in parts of the Left, especially since the collapse of the Sanders and Corbyn projects and the disorienting impact of the plague, which manifests variously as 'anti-woke' politics, as anti-liberalism, as transphobia, or as conspiracism. In some notable cases, individual left-wing intellectuals have gone fully over to the Right. I fear that in our present political deadlock, the passion for justice easily devolves into the passion for persecution, manifest in giddying pulsions of excitement, indignation, hate, sadism, prurience and paranoia…"

    Richard Seymour.

    • Molly 7.1

      Telecommunication companies should really provide information on their services and products – as should other companies.

      The use of social media as an advertising tool, has created a strange space where statements by junior social media staffers give the impression of policies made at executive and shareholder level.

      Many organisations seem to have this problem. Basic organisational guidelines should avoid such situations, but there is a contingent of people in such organisations that consider it now a extra service to tell their customers how to think.

      • Sabine 7.1.1

        It was a moment of either utter stupidity on the part of Spark for not having a sign of process on tweets/threads/ other social media comments and or branding, or a moment of self indulgence by the person who runs that social media account, to the detriment of Spark.

        I would assume that Spark Legal is currently reviewing some processes, HR is updating theirs, as is Branding. As for the person running the social media account – a job that that might pay up to/close to low six figures – after all they have a university education and diploma – , I suggest that they should sue their university for an education badly given as they seem to have missed the 'Corporate Branding/Communications' class 101. But i think they have a degree in history / politics so chances is someone who was not hired for skill and expertise in communicating 'telecommuncations' to gain new customers and retaining existing customers.

        Anyone who ever held a coms job with a big international / national brand knows to keep personal approval/opinion off the official social media accounts they work for. That is what the disclaimer : Private account – my views only is for, to not bring their employer into dis-repute.

        Never mind I cancelled my accounts with them, having joined a different provider who only pays to use Spark Network. Its not a lot one can do, but at least Spark is now only getting a tiny amount of my telecommunications dollars.

        The reason for all that brouhahah?

        NZ has a bully who is endorsed by Media, Political Establishment, and Corporate. Go figure, a wee storm in the tea cup to piss of the peasants and to validate a shitflinger for a bit of euphoria. Oh, and of course a decent ESG score. 🙂

        • Molly 7.1.1.1

          "NZ has a bully who is endorsed by Media, Political Establishment, and Corporate. "

          And as usual, this bullies is surrounded by other bullies and sycophants, operating within the same environment.

    • AB 7.2

      Thanks. The last sentence from your well-chosen Richard Seymour quote is manifest further down this very post. Dark times ahead – climate change ravaging our physical world while our mental world decays into vengeful madness.

  8. Molly 8

    The phrase "assigned at birth" originated from the mistaken sex recorded for babies with DSDs, where observation was insufficient to determine sex.

    The adoption of this phrase for sex correctly identified by observation, is one of the many ways of derailing discussion. But in the case of Caster Semenya, it applies. Caster Semenya was wrongly assigned female at birth, due to the lack of visible male genitalia.

    As with many DSDs, it was only with the approach of puberty that it was determined that Caster Semenya was male, with 5α-Reductase 2 deficiency. which means the lack of a particular enzyme disrupts the descension and full development of male genitalia. However, testosterone levels are usually normal for males, and the development of male characteristics that rely on testosterone continue as is usual.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caster_Semenya

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5%CE%B1-Reductase_2_deficiency

    So, it is important to note that Caster Semenya was diagnosed at eleven as a male with 5aR2D, despite being mistakenly assigned female at birth. So, the birth certificate, which provides the legal "sex" of female – was incorrect at the time of issue.

    I cannot find any credible about whether the diagnosis triggered off a move to correct the information, or Caster Semenya did not consider this necessary.

    Caster Semenya has been competing in the women's categories in athletics.

    The push for including men with declared gender identities into the women's categories in sports, created an arbitrary and unscientific ruling about a reduction in testosterone, on the unevidenced assumption that this measure would offset all male advantage.

    Until this point, Caster Semenya – and others in similar situations – were competing with full male testosterone levels, as they were "legally" female. So the ruling that was made to include men with declared gender identities, impacted on those already competing.

    A case of discrimination was brought to the European Court of Human Rights, and has been successful.

    https://www.echr.coe.int/w/judgment-concerning-switzerland?p_l_back_url=%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dsemenya

    The ruling is reported by RNZ:

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/sport/493586/caster-semenya-wins-appeal-at-european-court-of-human-rights

    "The European Court of Human Rights has ruled in favour of double 800m Olympic champion Caster Semenya in a case related to testosterone levels in female athletes.

    The South African athlete was born with differences of sexual development (DSD) and isn't allowed to compete in any track events without taking testosterone-reducing drugs.

    Semenya has been in a long-running dispute with World Athletics who require her to have hormone treatment.

    She has twice failed in legal battles to overturn the decision however the case at the European Court of Human Rights was not against sporting bodies or rules – but specifically against the government of Switzerland for not protecting Semenya's rights and dates back to a Swiss Supreme Court ruling three years ago."

    It is interesting to note that the above article, while reporting the DSD diagnosis, does not at any point describe what DSD Caster Semenya has, or that that particular DSD relates only to males, which Caster Semenya is. This lack of information, implies that Caster Semenya is a female with a DSD that improves athletic performance due to an natural overproduction of testosterone.

    An 5aR2D performance lottery of sorts – shared – quite coincidentally by the other two place holders for the 800m women's Rio Olympic games in 2016:

    https://youtu.be/psxr58zKi6g

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Wambui

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francine_Niyonsaba

    So this EHRC ruling relies on the already badly drafted rule about testosterone lowering that is an affront to the women's sports categories.

    It is an example of how incompetence by World Athletics in creating this rule, creates opportunity for even further erosion of women's sports categories, where even the farce of testosterone reduction is abandoned.

    • lprent 8.1

      Yep. We should just ban sports because sport at the competitive end inherently depends genetic and diet advantages.

      Alternatively we should mandate the only people who are of exactly world average heights should compete in any sport. This should lead to body mods where people extend or shorten tibia.

      /sarc

      In other words the full range of human abilities are a matter largely of chance of genetics and nurture. It doesn't matter where you look, there are range of varying human abilities. Sport simply isn't exactly the best example to use because it is inherently elitist.

      While it probably excites some fools who can't think logically about the basis of sport. With me all it does is want to ban any mention of sport on this site so I don't have to read this kind of drivel yet again.

      • Molly 8.1.1

        I asked this question above, but you appear to have answered it here:

        "I'm unsure whether your perspective is that any sexed categories are unnecessary, or that sports itself is unnecessary – or both."

        .https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-12-07-2023/#comment-1959125

        "While it probably excites some fools who can't think logically about the basis of sport. With me all it does is want to ban any mention of sport on this site so I don't have to read this kind of drivel yet again."

        I haven't read anything you have written that can be addressed logically.

        As for banning any mention of sport, it's your site. It's your call. As always, I'll adhere to the conditions of commenting, or not comment at all.

      • Shanreagh 8.1.2

        An OTT response to a post by Molly setting out her valid concerns.

        So you as a sportsperson think it is OK if you were beaten by someone with a genetic advantage? I know that if a male had competed in any women's sport that I was personally competing in I would have raised blue murder as it is totally unfair.

        But people who say others can call themselves male or female on the basis of feelings or gendered souls do have a disadvantage in dealing with the basic unfairness of people with male bodies competing in women's events.

        But these sportspeople referred to by Molly actually don't call themselves female because of feelings or gendered souls, they call themselves female despite having male bodies

        With me all it does is want to ban any mention of sport on this site so I don't have to read this kind of drivel yet again.

        Of course the site is yours Lprent to do as you want. But should you do this then the site will have proved beyond a doubt that it is/maybe inherently hostile to women.

        • lprent 8.1.2.1

          There you go again. Completely ignore the basis on which what the criticism was based on.

          What was I arguing? A valid concern… Which you have just made a hypocritical decision to ignore.

          I’d be interested in hearing about valid concerns. Sport isn’t one. It just happens to be one of the very very few concerns that you can raise where the number of verifiable incidents can’t be counted on the fingers of one hand – world wide!

          Talk about a weak argument….

          • Shanreagh 8.1.2.1.1

            I’d be interested in hearing about valid concerns. Sport isn’t one. It just happens to be one of the very very few concerns that you can raise where the number of verifiable incidents can’t be counted on the fingers of one hand – world wide!

            Very confusing.

            So do you or do you not think it is a problem for female athletes when males compete in female sports categories?

            If it is not a problem is the solution for all women to take steroids to level the playing field so they can compete against males? Or do you have another solution? Personally I think the easiest solution is to prevent males from competing in female sports categories. But I'm probably highly naive and not sufficiently nuanced in my approach.

            • lprent 8.1.2.1.1.1

              Not confusing – they and you can take it up with sports bodies.

              It has nothing to do with a wider social issue outside of the sporting industry. Politics, law and legislation has absolutely nothing to do with sports categories.

              What makes you think that it does? Please point to the relevant legislation or court decisions.

      • Shanreagh 8.1.3

        So my very calm and measured response to this post of yours 12 July 2023 at 11:22 am

        has failed moderation for some reason?

        • Molly 8.1.3.1

          Mine also, Shanreagh.

          I'll wait for a while for the reason for moderation before commenting again.

          • Shanreagh 8.1.3.1.1

            Cheers good move to wait for the reason for moderation.

          • Francesca 8.1.3.1.2

            Me too

            No idea why?

            I just asked if sex segregation in sports where sex matters has been a mistake all these years

            I'm genuinely curious where LPrent is coming from .He said Dawns line of argument was "stupid" without elaborating

            • lprent 8.1.3.1.2.1

              I have been pointing out this enormous weakness in the range of what I have now come to consider to be simple bigotry about trans for over a year now.

              Why don’t we segregate people in sport based on height? It makes exactly the same level of sense as segregating based on biological gender. Or on the basis of childhood diets. Sport is an inherently elitist in that it requires a a hell of a luck in genotype and nuture to be able to participate on any level playing field.

              Importantly sport has absolutely nothing to do with politics or legalities. It is a set of artificial distinctions made by private organisations with their own rules that are designed to maximise their audiences.

              So why are you wasting my time listening to crap based on a spurious irrelevant argument basis to demonstrate a problem – then the basis does absolutely nothing for your cause.

              Basically I have come to conclusion that it is because you can’t find other significant numbers of examples of actual verifiable problem. So you use an emotive meaningless scare argument.

              Bigots…..

              • Shanreagh

                So why are you wasting my time listening to crap based on a spurious irrelevant argument basis to demonstrate a problem – then the basis does absolutely nothing for your cause.

                So why are the world sports bodies grappling with this? They seem to think there is a problem of letting males compete in female sports categories. Then there is the obvious, inherent to watchers of sport, of having world ranked sports people competing in events on an unfair basis.

                You knee jerk reaction that this is about trans issues is just that. Knee jerk!

                The point has always been fair competition so people of equal competitive standing compete against others. Traditionally because of the clear and obvious differences between men/women sports people this has meant separating out the sex classes.

                In my younger days when doing track & field because sometimes there were not enough females to compete and give each other a real competition we used to compete in an open class.

                In this class though the men were always given a handciap by time or distance to even things up. If m/w are to compete together would you be averse to this or is it all who call themselves women here and all who call themselves men there?

                • lprent

                  I’m not involved in any sports organisation and haven’t been since I stopped playing my multitudinous sports about the time I joined the army at age 18 – so I wouldn’t know why the do things.

                  But I suspect that they make decisions based on their own organisation needs. Like universities requiring minimum standards for students. Or the army not taking cripples as infantry.

                  Why should I or most other people who have little interest in sports or any other body should care about what sports bodies do to manage their participation? Provided that it is legal, not hypocritical, and doesn’t unreasonable discriminate against participants for reasons that would offend BORA. So where is your basis for reasoning that we should look up to sports bodies for examples about how to manage our society?

                  Seems completely spurious to me. Trying to bring some completely distorted alien principles done for a organisation into law? Are you seriously interested in sports ‘law’ running society.

                  Should I also start looking at every other profit and non-profit organisations objectives and practices for legal precedence as well? Like the Catholic Church with its attitudes about celibacy? Or corporates with their focus on profit and personal returns?

                  What you appear to saying is the exact equivalence of saying exactly that.

                  • In Vino

                    lprent

                    Surely you see that sport is used hugely by the media in the influence of public opinion? I understand your indifference, but sport is a part of politics, because far more of the unthinking population care far more about sports than they do about boring politics? It is a weapon, as when John Key got himself a photo on the cover of NZ's big Rugby magazine posing with real All Blacks..

                    • In Vino

                      lprent

                      Sorry. I now see (having laboriously plodded through rest of thread) that my concerns are off-topic. I withdraw questions!

              • Molly

                "Why don’t we segregate people in sport based on height? It makes exactly the same level of sense as segregating based on biological gender. "

                No, it doesn't. The advantages of biological males is not reliant on height, although it may be a factor. Males retain the advantages of larger hearts, larger lung capacities, substantially more powerful upper body strength and recovery rates.

                (One such paper has just been released on the twitch muscles https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ca.24091. I can post other references for what had previously been well known, but I've limited myself for an interesting aspect one for now to aid discussion.)

                "Sport is an inherently elitist in that it requires a a hell of a luck in genotype and nuture to be able to participate on any level playing field."

                This is a completely different discussion. Apart from noting the physical, social and community benefits of sports, it has no bearing on the women's categories in sports.

                "Basically I have come to conclusion that it is because you can’t find other significant numbers of examples of actual verifiable problem. So you use an emotive meaningless scare argument."

                I understand this sentence (and your other comments on this topic today) to mean, that because you personally see no value in sports, anyone who raises the topic of the impact on women's sports categories of including men, is concerned about nothing of importance.

                I disagree, but note your position.

                "Bigots….."

                The familiar insult of which many have become innocculated to by its overuse.

                • lprent

                  Sport bodies do specific things for their own reasons. If you want to change their rules – then go and participate in their bodies to change rules.

                  However we aren’t a sports body – we tend to concern ourselves with broader issues than how to market to participants and audiences.

                  Who are you?
                  We’re a cooperative who saw a gap in the New Zealand political blogosphere and decided that we should have a go at filling it here at The Standard blog site

                  So perhaps you’d like to explain how the inane rules of sports bodies have any relevance to NZ politics, laws, or even society as a whole

                  “Bigots…..”

                  The familiar insult of which many have become innocculated to by its overuse.

                  Yeah, and I notice that, as a group, none of you seem to bother denying it. Just like you never bother to showing any substantive information about if there is a substantive problem or to make some attempt to document a scale of its extent.

                  Probably because it is

                  1. probably not a criminal issue outside of a few isolated instances.
                  2. of no real social issue outside of a few remaining places where
                    physicality make a difference. ie sport or labouring.
                  3. simply a perceptual issue by a people who want to claim historical
                    privilege.

                  Which also explains why I can’t get advocates to explain what they would want to do about it within a legal and legislative frame work. To do so would almost certainly expose just how much bigoted discrimination against other societal groupings would be involved.

                  It really hard not to compare this campaign to the rumours of negro rapists in the American South that caused so many lynchings. Or the historical equivalent instances here.

                  • Molly

                    "So perhaps you’d like to explain how the inane rules of sports bodies have any relevance to NZ politics, laws, or even society as a whole"

                    Sure.

                    Sports involvement at all levels has beneficial impacts on individuals, communities and society.

                    Although we are speaking about competitive sports at elite levels here, the ruling of global sports organisations filters down to community level participation, and influences policies and guidelines for non-competitive sport.

                    Individual benefits of sports involvement cover all aspects of three areas of wellbeing: physical, mental and social.

                    This is true also of solo sports endeavours or participation, but there benefits of community in such physical activities as well, which is why we have scuba groups or tramping clubs etc.

                    Sports considerations can have an effect on planning, resources needed for health services, mental and physical, and ACC. Sporting achievers are often used politically as role models for others. So, to me it is intrinsically interwoven with political discussion.

                    If your criticism is based purely on considering sports to be not a political consideration, then I disagree.

                    For the reasons, stated above (and more), if you want to continue this dialogue.

                    • lprent

                      Sports involvement at all levels has beneficial impacts on individuals, communities and society.

                      Arguably so does not doing sports based on the number of people my age who have issues with old sports injuries and who burden our medical system dealing with them. So does reading books. So does playing chess. Or keeping historical records.

                      So now you should show me the legislation about sports management that demonstrates its importance to society in general.

                      I’d take a bet that there isn’t any outside of some enabling legislation granting tracts of land for sport. Where as there are whole acts about the importance of keeping historical records.

                      So which is more important to society. Something that we leave to largely voluntary bodies, or something that we legislate for.

                      I won’t even go into details about the short (to a historian or geologist) history of sport to illustrate its importance to our forebears.

                    • Molly

                      "So now you should show me the legislation about sports management that demonstrates its importance to society in general."

                      So much for the personal is political.

                      I cannot show you this one particular item that you request. I suggest perhaps the closest direct link that meets your criteria is the policy guidelines issued by government funded and run, Sports NZ:

                      https://sportnz.org.nz/diversity-and-inclusion/transgender-inclusion/guiding-principles-for-the-inclusion-of-transgender-people-in-community-sport/

                      This impacts on funding allocations and resources that is taxpayer funded.

                      "I’d take a bet that there isn’t any outside of some enabling legislation granting tracts of land for sport. Where as there are whole acts about the importance of keeping historical records."

                      That's a planning issue – which is actually still a relevant political discussion, if you want to head down that route.

                      "So which is more important to society. Something that we leave to largely voluntary bodies, or something that we legislate for.

                      I won’t even go into details about the short (to a historian or geologist) history of sport to illustrate its importance to our forebears."

                      My impression is that you have no concern for the impact of men competing in women's sports categories, and any references to how it does matter will be ignored, or redirected into obscure topics.

                      While NZ does not have the sporting scholarships so prevalent in US universities, I personally know two young NZ women who got full scholarships via those sporting scholarships.

                      One did Structural Architecture, and the other – is currently completing a Doctorate in BioMedical research.

                      Such mechanisms that provide additional pathways to achievement, do have a political impact, whether you agree with them or not.

                    • lprent []

                      Also has this,

                      https://sportnz.org.nz/diversity-and-inclusion/advocating-for-women-and-girls/

                      or this

                      https://sportnz.org.nz/get-active/participants/

                      Are you suggesting that they shouldn’t support the inclusion of those groups as well – and on what basis?

                      I could go on pointing out how many sub-sections of society the funding of this quango assists with. Like volunteers and officials of sporting bodies.

                      But what you don’t find in there is that is says what sports bodies should do.

                      The enabling legislation is here
                      https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2002/0038/latest/whole.html

                      Section 8 gives the functions


                      8 Functions
                      The functions of the Agency are to—
                      (a)
                      develop and implement national policies and strategies for physical recreation and sport:
                      (b)
                      allocate funds to organisations and regional bodies in line with its policies and strategies:
                      (c)
                      promote and advocate the importance of participation in physical activity by all New Zealanders for their health and well-being:
                      (d)
                      promote and disseminate research relevant to physical recreation and sport:
                      (e)
                      provide advice to the Minister on issues relating to physical recreation and sport:
                      (f)
                      promote and support the development and implementation of physical recreation and sport in a way that is culturally appropriate to Māori:
                      (g)
                      encourage participation in physical recreation and sport by Pacific peoples, women, older New Zealanders, and people with disabilities:
                      (h)
                      recognise the role of physical recreation and sport in the rehabilitation of people with disabilities:
                      (i)
                      facilitate the resolution of disputes between persons or organisations involved in physical recreation and sport:
                      (j)
                      work with schools, regional, central, and local government, and physical recreation and sports organisations to ensure the maintenance and development of the physical and organisational infrastructure for physical recreation and sport:
                      (k)
                      work with health, education, and other agencies to promote greater participation in physical recreation and sport through policy development, advocacy, and support, in line with the objectives of the New Zealand health strategy:
                      (l)
                      provide advice and support for organisations working in physical recreation and sport at national, regional, and local levels:
                      (m)
                      facilitate co-ordination between national, regional, and local physical recreation and sport organisations:
                      (n)
                      represent the Government’s policy interests in physical recreation and sport internationally.

                      Section 10 gives the explicit hands off for the political sphere.


                      10 Restriction on directions
                      The Minister may not give a direction to the Agency under section 103 of the Crown Entities Act 2004 in relation to the allocation of funds to, or for the benefit of, any persons, or in relation to a policy, practice, procedure, or decision of the Agency regarding the allocation of funds to, or for the benefit of, any person.

                      Are you suggesting that this rather explicit separation of the state from sports bodies should be changed?

                      Perhaps you can suggest how you’d reword it.

                      That would be change – someone actually talking about a substantive political subject rather whining about fairness in sporting bodies.

                      I do like tearing dictatorial legislation apart.

                    • Molly

                      @lprent

                      Such faith in legislation to be well written and drafted, and no concern about the impact of such.

                      "Perhaps you can suggest how you’d reword it.

                      That would be change – someone actually talking about a substantive political subject rather whining about fairness in sporting bodies."

                      Not really. I'm interesting in political impact of decisions and policies.

                      "I do like tearing dictatorial legislation apart."

                      To each their own. I'm heading out, so will leave you to your enjoyment.

                    • lprent []

                      Not really. I’m interesting in political impact of decisions and policies.

                      Legislation is how you determine what will be the political impact of policies over time. But you do highlight my point.

                      So far I haven’t heard a single plan of action. I guess that is because looking at detail to make something effective isn’t as nearly as interesting as boring me with repetitive statements of (mostly unsubstantiated) horror.

                    • Francesca

                      Not to mention that it can be a livelihood for underprivileged youth who can really achieve better things for themselves through hard work and application .So there's an employment issue as well

                    • Molly

                      @lprent

                      Many did submit to both Sports NZ and to the Select Committee about the wording of legislation, policies and guidance and how lack of clarity will have real world impacts.

                      The interpretation of sports policy doesn't stand alone, when any male can now self-id as a female, and provide legal documentation for that falsity.

                      Putting aside the whole sports is elitism discussion, real world impacts of these political decisions mean that young girls in sports teams or competitions may be pressured to share changing rooms with males. This is an issue of overriding consent, and dismantling personal boundaries.

                      So, while you may enjoy your policy wonk focus, it is a focus that appears to be narrow and depends upon those in authority holding rational and considered perspectives.

                      Many of us know that is not the case, even though you may believe it to be.

                  • That_guy

                    So perhaps you’d like to explain how the inane rules of sports bodies have any relevance to NZ politics, laws, or even society as a whole

                    because women have stated that it's important to them that they can safely and fairly compete in sports and women are part of society and they get to set their priorities, not you?

                    • lprent

                      because women have stated that it’s important to them that they can safely and fairly compete in sports and women are part of society and they get to set their priorities, not you?

                      Sure – that is what sports bodies are for. Join them and change their rules.

                      I can’t see how that has anything to do with NZ politics, government, or law. Unless you or they’d like to explain what legislation that plan to try to introduce. That would suit a political website.

                      This is a blog that is mainly about politics. Idle ineffective whinging about sports organisation is probably better done elsewhere. Effective change would have to be done from inside those organisations.

                    • That_guy

                      @lprent I disagree that sport is not political, and most especially I disagree that sport is not political right now in the context of the interaction of women's rights and trans rights. Anything that affects the way someone might vote is surely, by definition, political.

                      I'm not going to go on about this, but I just do not find the arguments you're putting forward to be at all convincing, and I find the positions put forward by other commenters to much more reasonable and progressive.

                    • lprent []

                      Sure it is political – but national politics isn’t the only politics around.

                      Sports organisations are ful of it! So what is being done inside those?

                      Or is this all a whine and moan movement rather than a active one?

                      If you or anyone else thinks that it should be a one that is a national political debate – then what is trying to be achieved? Because currently national politics is fire-walled from running sports bodies or setting their rules. I rather suspect that most sports and sports people would prefer that it stays that way.

                      But at the very least any kind of movement should have some idea about how they’d have our legislative body to interfere with the rules of sports organisations. That is what I’d like to see.

                      Basically moaning and avoiding looking how to do effective changes isn’t a strategy. To be taken seriously in politics it pays to be able to pint to plan of action.

                      It also pays to think about how to write the legislation because that is really hard to do so it can be legal.

                  • Shanreagh

                    I'm speechless.

                    How does ensuring fair play for women in sport equal lynching.

                    There have been campaigns for fair play for sport covering better prize money (tennis & golf) , better access to sports channels (all womens sports). Why is this like lynching?

                    Don't you agree that sport is inherently equals playing equals?

                    • lprent

                      Don’t you agree that sport is inherently equals playing equals?

                      I would argue that it is the exact opposite. It is largely about identifying a lack of equality regardless of how you slice and dice sports categories.

                      If you even dig into the long history of sports categories you’ll find that it wasn’t particularly about fairness. It was about increasing the number of winners done specifically to increase the attraction to participants and audiences.

                      You can find that mercenary and avaricious motive explained all the way back to texts in ancient Greece and Rome. Moreover it was almost invariably done for the motive of increasing military readiness.

                      Fairness is so damn recent a motive in sport historically that I suspect that it was just a side-effect of a 20th century marketing strategy. Either that or the much vaunted peace between nations that is the basis of the modern Olympic movement. Something that increasingly seems laughable bearing in mind the way that many of not most national participants tend to act in practice.

                    • Dennis Frank

                      Interesting point re parity – merit on both sides. Re historical context his point is valid whereas expectations nowadays are driven by peer pressure. My solidarity with leftists mainly derives from equity, which is your angle. Both individuals & team sports have biological roots but the latter integrates collaboration with competition.

                      Re the ethical dimension I'm a believer in the rights of women. Fakers or inbetweeners trying to invade ought to be eliminated. However the alphabet soup tribe have the right to stage their own games in their own arenas. I suspect that they'll get there eventually once they transcend their addiction to imperialism.

                    • lprent []

                      I suspect that ultimately that is what is likely to happen. It is part of the overall long-term differentiation of segment sports marketing strategy.

                      By nation, city, by league, by category, by appeals to ‘fairness’, and all of the other classic marketing segmentation techniques – that is how you ultimately maximise revenue from the suckers.

                      However we aren’t talking about my MBA marketing here. Politics at a legislative level is a quite different thing to marketing.

                  • Francesca

                    I ignore it out of politeness .Its embarrassing for you

              • That_guy

                I am very uncomfortable with the suppression and minimisation of women's voices and the false accusations of bigotry I see coming from the owner of this site.

                • Anne

                  Except that women are not being suppressed or minimised. Huge improvements have been made in recent decades. Women are accepted in every field of endeavour that exists. They can be Prime Ministers, Presidents and multi national CEOs. They can be Airline Captains, Astronauts, Navy Commanders, Airforce Commodores, Army Generals. They can be anything they want to be provided they have the right professional credentials.

                  NZ is about to host the women's Rugby World Cup. Who would have 'thunk it' a few decades ago that women would have their own place in the world of rugby.

                  Sure, there is still a way to go, but this supposition that women are still suppressed and held down is exactly that – a supposition which no longer has any basis in fact.

                  • That_guy

                    It's the Football World Cup. Round ball.

                    Sure, there is still a way to go, but this supposition that women are still suppressed and held down is exactly that – a supposition which no longer has any basis in fact.

                    Women say different. I have a superpower, granted to me by small appendages on either side of my head, called "ears", or "taringa" if you want to rile up a racist, and they grant me an ability called "listening".
                    I use this amazing superpower to ascertain what women are saying about women's rights in their own words and then I draw conclusions. I don't agree with your position.

                  • That_guy

                    Oh, and while we're talking about the Rugby World Cup. My son was at the final. Life-changing, he will remember it forever. Strong women, playing their hearts out, full stadium, the glorious Ruby try, the Hand Of Ngan-Woo, a magnificent result that will stand forever as a high point in Women's rugby*.

                    * This asterix is to represent the fact that there is no asterix attached to the Black Fern's win at the WRC, and there never will be.

                    • lprent

                      The last time I watched a whole rugby game or a rugby league game or any kind of sports was back in the early 1980s on TV.

                      Nowhere near as exciting as going to Eden Park where I spent much my youth. I decided after the last time that I had other more productive things to do that were more productive and didn’t waste my time watching other people exercising. Also after doing actual military training, I wasn’t that enamoured of play-combat.

                      Pretty much the same with most sports.

                    • That_guy

                      Also after doing actual military training, I wasn’t that enamoured of play-combat.

                      Duly noted, I'll try not to get into a fight with you, or at least will try to keep the fight verbal 🙂

                  • Phillip ure

                    Wot anne said…

                • Anker

                  Thank you That_guy. Agree with everything you are saying and appreciated everything you are saying.

              • Francesca

                Are you saying that sex makes no difference in the ability to develop muscle, lung and heart capacity?

                Some men are pipsqueaks , or fat and unfit, strong women could beat them with a hand tied behind their back

                But at the top layers of sport, only a very mediocre man will lose to a woman .Generally, the majority of top athlete men are going to be stronger than top athlete women .Witness Lia Thomas , a mediocre performer in the male category, a champion in the female

                But a top athlete man will always beat a top athlete woman (in those sports where strength and stamina matter)

                Segregation has been based on sex , not gender by the way

                • lprent

                  Some men are pipsqueaks , or fat and unfit, strong women could beat them with a hand tied behind their back

                  But at the top layers of sport, only a very mediocre man will lose to a woman .Generally, the majority of top athlete men are going to be stronger than top athlete women .

                  etc….

                  Self-evident, and something that I have pointed out repeatably.

                  But how has that any relevance outside of sports bodies? Our government and courts don’t make the rules that govern sports bodies. And I can’t see any reason why it has any political relevance for wider society.

                  Unless you are proposing that all private bodies should have their rules determined by parliament and administered by district courts? It’d overturn centuries of jurisprudence, would probably require a ubiquitous secret police larger than the Stasi to enforce.

                  I can just see how the sports-people, women or otherwise, would absolutely love that….

                  Rapidly moving to consider that there is a congenital logical defect amongst the proponents of this dictatorial fetish.

                  • Shanreagh

                    There has been a legal and governmental background to this and that is enshrined in the NZBDM self ID provisions.

                    This, like in other countries in the world is now flowing into areas such as women's sports where mediocre sportsmen can say they are women and claim prizes. We've seen this in women's cycling and swimming.

                    Molly's post was about the fact that sometimes males being females is not done with the stroke of a pen in a govt registry office as part of self ID later in life, but is a mistake made by observation at birth. . As with Caster Semenya.

                    • lprent

                      That is amendments to legislation that was written in conformance with international treaties about paperwork for cross-border travel. It is a legal question about identification – not identity. I’d explain the distinction but I’m sure that your obsession with formal identity should already be aware of this.

                      Such treaties and downstream legislation have provisions about how faces should be presented to cameras. What kinds of biometric data should stored in travel documents. Either directly or by who is granted authority to make decisions on requirements.

                      The remainder of NZBDM is about the storing historical records on par with legislative requirements about how long I should keep financial records for the tax department.

                      Having a gender or sex recorded in such documents is more a historical accident about how identification techniques worked in the 19th century than anything legal inside NZ.

                  • Francesca

                    Is the NZ Rugby Union for instance privately owned ?

                    I thought there was a fair amount of govt funding there

                    In fact a great deal of taxpayers money goes into sports funding, often with conditions that fairness and sex equity are applied .That is a political stance right there

                    https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/women-in-sport/300581663/nz-rugby-to-lose-some-government-funding-after-not-meeting-board-gender-diversity-

        • Francesca 8.1.3.2

          Well you did better than me Shanreagh and Molly

          • Molly 8.1.3.2.1

            Apparently my time in the naughty corner – for reasons unspecified – is up.

            Comment has been allowed through:

            .https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-12-07-2023/#comment-1959128

            • Molly 8.1.3.2.1.1

              Spoke too soon.

              Response to lprent @ .https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-12-07-2023/#comment-1959185 is in moderation again…

              • Francesca

                me too

                Tiresome, I'll stop .Its his site and he can summarily dismiss whoever he likes.

                • Molly

                  "Tiresome, I'll stop .Its his site and he can summarily dismiss whoever he likes."

                  Of course he can.

                  It's good to know that is the case and the practice for certainty's sake.

                  • weka

                    no-one is being summarily dismissed. Lynn has slowed down the conversation by putting some key words in the spam filter (ie it's not people that are being premodded). He will then release those comments manually.

                    Keywords filtering doesn't happen a lot on TS, but it does have precedent.

                    • Molly

                      Thanks for the explanation, weka.

                      What words should be avoided?

                      Or is the intention – as you say – just to slow down this particular thread for reasons unspecified?

                    • weka []

                      it would kind of defeat the purpose to name the words in the front end. Slowing down the conversation will improve the debate, so I’d go with that (eg don’t comment again until your previous comment has been released).

                      Lots of other good topics on offer today.

                    • weka []

                      I’ve only skimmed some of the debate, but if the core issue for Lynn is that sport is inherently elitist and should be dealt with at the sporting body level and thus it’s not a political issue, then I’d argue against that (it’s clear to me it’s a political issue in a number of ways but I don’t have time to read Lynn’s comments to make the argument against his position).

                    • lprent []

                      Sports bodies are currently separated by a legislative firewall from legislative politics.

                      Sports bodies here are self-administering by members and their usually elected officials with their own internal politics, rules, and tribunal ‘courts’.

                      However this site is about the politics of the country. That is expressed largely by legislation directly or indirectly.

                      If people what to moan about fairness in sport within out current legal framework, then they should do it inside those organisations.

                      If they want to move that particular aspect of ‘fairness’ to our legislative framework, then repetitive and extremely boring coordinated moaning simply isn’t a sufficient strategy to form anything around. You need to at least suggest solutions, and in the legislative frame work that is legislation or regulation based on legislation.

                      The level of avoidance of that simple observation is what pisses me off about this debate. So I’m giving a good kick up the arse with appropriate sneering for motivation to get off the damn pot and figure out what and how something could be done (or not).

                      So I’ve been doing that between code sessions today.

                      Personally I simply can’t see what problem that they’re trying to fix outside of some kind of bigotry that I don’t share. But sport appears to be the only place where it is possible to see a systematic issue with any number of documented instances.

                      So most of this is

                      1. why is sport relevant?
                      2. who controls sporting rules?
                      3. why should the legislative body for the country get involved?
                      4. how would they do that?
                      5. how far would that affect other legislation and other social issues?

                      In other words, pretty much the exact process that every other social movement has followed to get social changes into legislative changes.

                      I think we’re at 3 or 4 right now.

                    • Molly

                      @weka

                      Thanks. I'm attempting to ascertain lprents position, and respond accordingly, but the moderation process in place does as you say – disrupts the natural flow.

                      Heading out anyway, so the moderation technique will have little effect on further responses.

                    • Francesca

                      Thanks

                      I wonder how the key words are chosen?

                      I do try to keep my comments impersonal without rancour
                      I’m off for a long walk up the hill anyway

                    • SPC

                      Sports bodies are currently separated by a legislative firewall from legislative politics.

                      Then this happened

                      Caster Semenya won an appeal against track and field's testosterone rules today when the European Court of Human Rights

                      https://www.1news.co.nz/2023/07/12/semenya-wins-human-rights-case-against-testosterone-rules/

      • Anker 8.1.4

        https://www.rnz.co.nz/programmes/the-detail/story/2018757712/the-science-of-transgender-women-in-sport

        Or rather than having to engage with this you could just accept the view of Dr Ross Tucker a sports scientist who was commissioned by the International Rugby Union to provide a sport on transgender in womens sport.

        If you really don't like sport so much, I am not sure why you are bothering to engage in this topic at all.

  9. Shanreagh 9

    An 5aR2D performance lottery of sorts – shared – quite coincidentally by the other two place holders for the 800m women's Rio Olympic games in 2016:

    https://youtu.be/psxr58zKi6g

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Wambui

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francine_Niyonsaba

    So this EHRC ruling relies on the already badly drafted rule about testosterone lowering that is an affront to the women's sports categories.

    It is an example of how incompetence by World Athletics in creating this rule, creates opportunity for even further erosion of women's sports categories, where even the farce of testosterone reduction is abandoned.

    That 2016 final was shameful. I have long felt so sorry for the woman who finished 4th, beaten in to that place by males and incompetence by World Athletics. I know we are not supposed to be able to act on the evidence of our eyes in this, (not that I believe this) but having had a love of track & field and been around competitors/competing in a minor way when young, my eyes were telling me that these were males. Their running gait and the view front on tells me that.

    People seem to be twisting themselves in knots sticking up for the likes of Caster Semenya while women in athletics are deprived of a chance to win fairly.

    I know I should not be surprised by this, but it continually surprises me that this kind of chauvinism/misogyny/male focus is allowed.

    Perhaps the authorities should start with a basic premise that womens events are for women only.

    Birth certificates issued on the observed sex at birth criteria do the job most of the time. It is a mistake, and will increasingly be a mistake with self ID, to base ability to compete in women's events on the holding of a birth certificate showing you were registered as a female. Caster Semenya seems to have known about her advantaged status for running in women's events since the age of 11.

    So, it is important to note that Caster Semenya was diagnosed at eleven as a male with 5aR2D, despite being mistakenly assigned female at birth. So, the birth certificate, which provides the legal "sex" of female – was incorrect at the time of issue.

    • Sabine 9.1

      Its ok, its only women – human females who are losing. s/

      • Francesca 9.1.1

        Actually Sabine, men make the best women .Their front holes are the best money can buy.Womens vaginas are so passé

        • Sabine 9.1.1.1

          It's a brave new world out there.

        • Shanreagh 9.1.1.2

          Warning extreme sarc/ and borderline crudity follows

          And if you haven't got the money or don't want to actually go the distance chemically ot surgery-wise then the tried and true single back one is always worth a go/having.

          I mean you don't have to look, feel or be a woman-or -trying -to -trans, to be a woman. As Visubversa says there's the gendered soul to think about.

          • Sabine 9.1.1.2.1

            Maybe we should ask "what is trans' and more importantly 'who is trans'.

            Something to soothe your heart….

            • Molly 9.1.1.2.1.1

              Thanks for that, I enjoyed the music, so looked up the lyrics and my appreciation increased.

    • Visubversa 9.2

      Some useful information here.

      https://lascapigliata.com/2020/09/10/on-intersex-transgender-and-womens-sport/

      "Disorders of sex development (DSDs or intersex) occur when something goes wrong and our bodies recieve erroneous signals, or fail to receive the right ones, and our development proceeds down the wrong pathway. However, because our genetic template is still either male or female, these anomalies can only impair that template, they cannot switch a male into a female or vice versa, and nowhere is this more apparent than in DSDs".

      "Semenya was born with 5ARD, a DSD that only affects 46 XY biological males. An X-linked genetic mutation, 5ARD prevents the body from producing enough of steroid 5-alpha reductase 2, an enzyme responsible for converting testosterone into DHT, which is in turn responsible for development of male genitalia before birth. So babies with 5ARD are born with ambiguous genitals, micropenis, hypospadias or even female-appearing genitals. They can sometimes be mistaken for girls, or deliberately raised as girls, but if they are allowed to develop normally, and their testicles aren’t removed in a “gender assigning” procedure, they will experience male puberty, and with it, all the associated changed that will give them sporting advantage over female competitors,"

    • Dennis Frank 10.1

      Doesn't mean dying in the ditch with leftist neoliberals. Just a campaign strategy to try & milk floating neolib voters. Any negotiating may also feature this guy:

      We need police to enforce the law, but we also need a judicial system that holds these offenders to account. There is no security of our future if we continue with the madness of this ‘catch and release’ excuse for a policy that has crept into our justice system over the last decade. There are no rights without responsibilities. So what has happened to ‘personal responsibility’?

      https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO2306/S00077/rt-hon-winston-peters-2023-new-zealands-inflection-point.htm

      Evasion of responsibility ain't just the judiciary wimping out though. It's in cabinet.

      • Alan 10.1.1

        Peters has emphatically ruled out working with Labour, "you do not get to lie to me twice" etc.

        • Dennis Frank 10.1.1.1

          True, he did. Perhaps I ought not to discount that ploy. Being resolute about any of his stances is indeed characteristic of him. However, in the dim distant past I do recall him doing a u-turn that got him into cabinet…

          • Alan 10.1.1.1.1

            Having made such a clear statement about not working with Labour and repeating it regularly, he knows he would be vilified if he did flip flop.

            • Dennis Frank 10.1.1.1.1.1

              It would be in the negotiations, combined with baubles of office plus policy agreements. He would counter any media vilification with the latter. That's how he framed it last time, eh?

    • Shanreagh 10.2

      Thank goodness for that.

      The Greens have better policies to look at than their Wealth tax policy ie policies that take us forward rather than joining the great clobbering machine and the unfortunate Tall Poppy syndrome we seem to claim as second nature here in NZ.

      I'm hoping for a Labour win but accept that we may have to work it with TPM and The Greens.

      TPM Income policy

      https://www.maoriparty.org.nz/income

      I cannot see that they have supported a wealth tax or CGT.

      .

      • Shanreagh 10.2.1

        “Particularly based on a revenue neutral switch that would have seen a tax-free zone created of up to $10,000, funded by increased tax on the wealthiest New Zealanders.”

        “This work began in 2022, but ultimately the decision was made not to go ahead with it given the significance of the change in difficult and highly uncertain economic conditions."

        I support wholeheartedly the changing of tax brackets to remove bracket creep and actually support the ranges of tax brackets put up by the Greens in their Wealth tax but without the Wealth Tax component.

        • SPC 10.2.1.1

          Unfunded tax cuts have what impact on funding of public services – such as health, state housing, income support?

          • Shanreagh 10.2.1.1.1

            The Greens tax brackets actually affect the higher incomes so my imperfect understanding is that they will add rather than be unfunded and the Greens have chosen to fund their version of a a UBI from the higher take.

            Again my imperfect understanding is that if the brackets were expanded without being used to fund anything specific it would be available for use by the govt in power.

            Of course some of the tax take will go to smoothing out any shortfall from say giving all tax payers a no tax to be paid on the first $10,000 earned.

            • SPC 10.2.1.1.1.1

              The income tax changes proposed by Greens are dependent on the wealth tax money.

              • Shanreagh

                So what are they funding the UBI to lift people out of poverty on then? Why is this linked in with the Wealth tax?

                I would much prefer that a scheme to lift people out of poverty was explicitly paid for out of a Vote: rather than being hidden in the Wealth tax proposals.
                ie a tied tax.

                • SPC

                  It's a total income and tax package.

                  • Shanreagh

                    ?

                    That is my point I don't agree with that because it involves

                    • tied taxes
                    • tax on so-called wealthy people
                    • no explicit govt funding through Vote: Social Welfare for lifting the lowest rates so that poverty can be alleviated.
                    • SPC
                      • tax on so-called wealthy people

                      Less than 1% of people own assets over $2M single and $4M couples. The highest markets have homes at $1M.

                      • no explicit govt funding through Vote: Social Welfare for lifting the lowest rates so that poverty can be alleviated.

                      All tax revenue (GST, income, company) and or any necessary borrowing is allocated to votes after it is received, – health, education, welfare.

        • UncookedSelachimorpha 10.2.1.2

          "I support wholeheartedly the changing of tax brackets to remove bracket creep and actually support the ranges of tax brackets put up by the Greens in their Wealth tax but without the Wealth Tax component."

          The whole point is that income tax rates have almost no impact on the truly wealthy – who have very little IRD-declared taxable income. Unless you expand collection outside of income tax, extreme unfairness driving extreme inequality and disadvantage, will persist, no matter what income tax rates you apply.

      • SPC 10.2.2

        The Greens have better policies to look at than their Wealth tax policy ie policies that take us forward rather than joining the great clobbering machine and the unfortunate Tall Poppy syndrome we seem to claim as second nature here in NZ.

        When in reality, we have the most cossetted tall poppies in the OECD.

        Two thirds of nations in the OECD have CGT and estate tax. Only one has no CGT – us. We also have no stamp duty, nor any tax on unused land.

        • Shanreagh 10.2.2.1

          Now stamp duty, death duties, transaction tax on real estate sales & shares I can understand. People either have a choice whether to embark on the activity or the duty is paid at natural way points in the life ie purchase or death.

          It doesn't make a person pay for what they cannot control ie inflation affecting land or other property as wealth taxes do. We pay for the fact that inflation was not controlled in times past when we as individuals had no way of avoiding than Canute of commanding the sea to retreat.

          If we wanted to bring in a tax on unused land, always inherently unfair to the owner of Maori land we could look at that, though I would prefer it was on residential houses etc only.

          • SPC 10.2.2.1.1

            It doesn't make a person pay for what they cannot control ie inflation affecting land or other property as wealth taxes do

            So you favour growing wealth via property ownership with no tax until the estate phase – and presumably gift duties on any transfer of untaxed CG before then?

            • Shanreagh 10.2.2.1.1.1

              I don't favour anything really other than PAYE.

              I think govts really have to make the case for any extra taxes at all. So far I have not seen any except for clobbering those who bought a home or who took the deep breath and saved for retirement. I don't agree with tied taxes ie a special tax that will be imposed to pay for this or that. This means that the the hands of the Govt of the day are tied, they don't get the full benefit of the tax take and have to fund through tied taxation, programmes that might be better funded through general taxation. I class the Greens UBI policy as one of these.

              If other forms of taxation are required I favour those that do not make the last person in the chain pay for all the inflation that has been built in by Govts in times past and that are not able to be controlled by the individual.

              If we find we need to do this extra tax then a modest % on death duties or as a financial transaction tax on real estate or shares seems fair (sort of).

              As a first step a thorough looking at PAYE seems to be a good move.

              • weka

                a yearly wealth tax on top end wealth is a kind of pay as you earn. That's the point of it, to tax that income alongside wages as the income is coming in.

                If instead of making $500,000 via property capital gains over say a decade, someone was earning that from a salary, should that $500,000 of salary income not be taxed? What's the difference between the two?

                • Shanreagh

                  The payment is not a PAYE type situation as there is no ‘folding’, ‘moola’ or cash coming in. It is a notional or book transaction.

                  If the person was already paying PAYE on wages or a salary it would be an additional tax and they would pay some of their tax paid wages or salary on meeting this new cost. So just because a person has a high KS balance or a family home does not mean they have cash assets or salary to match to pay an ongoing tax. I just think it is a blunt instrument.

                  I think it is inherently unfair for an individual to pay for so-called wealth when 99% of the time the 'wealth' has been brought about by the actions of Govts in not controlling inflation. Until a way point comes along, a person is not able to so-called cash in on this inflation fuelled rising price. Wages, salaries and benefits don't seemed to have increased at the same rate.

                  The only times a person or their estate can tap into a risen price is on sale or death. That is why taxes could be imposed at those points.

                  I support PAYE. I support looking at PAYE as a first step.

                  Any extra taxes or types of taxes the Govt should be making the case for.

                  • weka

                    The only times a person or their estate can tap into a risen price is on sale or death. That is why taxes could be imposed at those points.

                    and in fact the GP policy allows for exactly that. Why do you keep ignoring that? If someone can't pay the tax they can defer it, at which point it becomes a defacto death/sales tax.

                    But, people tap into that wealth all the time. Their ability to borrow to buy a second house for instance is far above that of someone with no assets or even people still paying off a mortgage. Or finance a business, or whatever else they want to do.

                  • Incognito

                    The only times a person or their estate can tap into a risen price is on sale or death. That is why taxes could be imposed at those points.

                    Here we are again, going around circles because you (don’t want to) listen.

                    The Wealth Tax can be deferred. One can borrow against the asset. All the while you can continue living in $2M home mortgage-free and not paying a cent in rent. If you are in this situation then you are one of the so-called actual 1%. Just accept it.

              • UncookedSelachimorpha

                "I don't favour anything really other than PAYE."

                That basically means the wealthy will pay far less tax than anyone else, as they currently do.

                • Shanreagh

                  Realigning PAYE, company, trust etc tax will go a long way.

                  We should do this first is my suggestion.

                  Then explicitly advise why and what other revenue sources need to be tapped into. Put out a range of different mechanisms to discuss.

                  I favour taxes that are aligned at natural waypoints such as sale and death. So taxing people who have book assets when they have no cash assets to pay a tax on the book assets seems odd & unfair.

                  If we are just going to defer it until death if people cannot pay yearly, why not go the whole hog and just impose it at death and not all the way through. I know the income stream is lumpy but we have worked with being able to forecast income coming in from death duties ……

                  • SPC

                    Multiple property owners can borrow against the rising value of their properties and pay not tax on that model.

                    Most people buying and selling homes are moving onto another one, so most they either be exempt or the impost would reduce their home equity (note most countries exempt over 90% of homes from CGT, and only some have stamp duty).

                    And if all the unpaid CGT is deferred to estate tax, it will have to be a high rate and taxation on transfer as gifts tax before then.

                    • Shanreagh

                      Sorry have we got a CGT? What is the unpaid CGT?

                      I am proposing a financial transactions tax and death duties if the tax take from PAYE, Company and Trust tax is not enough. .

                      I also favour no taxation on KS. KS is deducted after tax is paid wages and salaries.

                    • SPC

                      We are the only nation in the OECD with no tax on CG.

                      Allowing dispersal of gifts from wealth derived from asset growth such as untaxed CG on property sales means an estate tax would be a joke – thus little or no tax on realised CG wealth.

                      Such would allow inter-generational wealth transfer – the basis of a class system.

                      Are you proposing that those who have their family home in a trust should pay a tax on that value, or only a tax on the income made by the trust should be set at a higher rate?

                      Are you proposing that companies that made a profit of less than $48,000 should pay tax at below the current company tax rate and that those that made more than $180,00 should pay 39 cents?

                  • Drowsy M. Kram

                    So taxing people who have book assets when they have no cash assets to pay a tax on the book assets seems odd & unfair.

                    "Unfair" – only up to a point, surely? The Green's point is an eye-watering $2,000,000 per person, apparently affecting <1% of Kiwis.

                    If that bar is too low, then how about $3 mill per person – or $5 mill? Is there any point at which it would be acceptable to tax “book assets“?

                    The Side Eye’s Two New Zealands: The Table [16 August 2022]
                    The richest 10% of New Zealanders hold more than half the country’s wealth. The poorer half of the population, meanwhile, holds just 2%. So why are we still so reluctant to talk about wealth inequality?

                    Dennis Frank's observation about how timid today's politicians seem compared to the first labour government had me scurrying for a list of significant policies between 1936 and 1939, which revealed this gem:

                    • The graduated land tax was reintroduced at high rates.
                    • The top rate of income tax was significantly increased, from 42.9% (and 57% for 'unearned income' such as rent, interest or dividends) in 1939 to 76.5% by 1949.

                    Fair’s fair? All moot anyhow – Labour MPs won't vote for a wealth tax, or any increase in CGTs, while Hipkins leads the party.

                    https://www.odt.co.nz/lifestyle/magazine/fairs-fair

                    • Shanreagh

                      I guess that is the point Drowsy.

                      I am highly sceptical that the rates/ideas/concepts of wealth covered by the Greens proposals will catch the

                      The richest 10% of New Zealanders hold more than half the country’s wealth.

                      These are the people most likely to be able to move money etc to avoid scenarios where they would pay wealth tax. I would predict their assets/incomes will barely be touched.

                      By the same token I don't believe that people with a family home and KS are actually included in that 10%. Yet the Greens tax will reach down to tax their assets.

                      I have the feeling it will catch many who by the operation of inflation only are deemed to be 'wealthy' ie a book value only, have no cash assets or have gone all out to put money into KS. I don't live in a high wealth suburb in Wellington but my home is valued for rating purposes at $1.2m. Houses in the suburb are selling today at around $945-950, 000.

                      Unless I sell that is not my 'wealth', I cannot realise it until I sell.

                      Unless I die my Trustees cannot sell and realise the value.

                      Hence the commonsense approach is a financial transactions tax and a death duties tax.

                  • Drowsy M. Kram

                    These are the people most likely to be able to move money etc to avoid scenarios where they would pay wealth tax. I would predict their assets/incomes will barely be touched.

                    Tax avoidance by the top 10% is indeed a headache for everyone else.

                    Ending Poverty Together
                    Our plan will end poverty and make sure everyone has enough to put food on the table, a safe place to call home, and live a decent life – and we’ll pay for it with a fair tax system.

                    Apart from a wealth tax of 2.5% on net assets over the first $2 million per person, another aspect of the Green's "Ending Poverty Together" plan which appealed to me was a flat tax on family trusts.

                    Greens wealth tax proposal ignites the tax debate just as the IMF suggests it's time for a capital gains tax.
                    For family trusts there is no nil rate band or threshold at all. It's a flat 1.5% which is a deliberate anti-avoidance mechanism.

                    Imho we need more "deliberate anti-avoidance mechanisms" – it should be made much 'easier' for Kiwis to pay their fair share of tax.

                    By the same token I don’t believe that people with a family home and KS are actually included in that 10%. Yet the Greens tax will reach down to tax their assets.

                    Will it though? If I was the owner and sole occupant of a house worth $1.2 million, I would still need to have other assets (savings/shares) of $0.8 million to be subject to a wealth tax, and even then the tax would only be due on the assets in excess of $2 million.

                • Shanreagh

                  I don't agree. The wealthy use the company and trust vehicles and tapping into those as well as PAYE will work.

                • SPC

                  As Warren Buffet put it, and this is in a country with a CGT, he paid less tax on his income (per dollar) than his secretary did on her wages.

            • Shanreagh 10.2.2.1.1.2

              I thought we had done away with Gift Duty.

              We have

              https://www.taxpolicy.ird.govt.nz/publications/2011/2011-sr-gift-duty-abolition/gift-duty-abolition

              The change follows a review of gift duty, which revealed that the compliance costs far outweigh both the revenue it collects and the limited protections it has offered to prevent tax avoidance, social assistance targeting and defeat of creditors.

              Unless gift duty fitted in with one of the way points of sale or death I wouldn't look at reimposing it.

              • SPC

                You have a problem with trusts, but not with dispersing the estate without any gift duty impost?

                If their argument is correct, it is one in favour of a wealth tax in preference to an estate tax.

                • Shanreagh

                  I don't have a problem with trusts? If I did it does not follow that I would support gift duty. My view is that any $$$$ from a Trust should be added to a donnee's/person's income and they pay PAYE on this.

                  I think trust tax, company tax and PAYE should be strengthened and improved so more of NZ's tax take comes from there.

                  I think we could do better than a wealth tax by the financial services tax and a death duties tax. I cannot understand the objection to paying it on death.

                  I thought as socialists we did not go for inherited wealth? So why is this unpopular.

                  I for one have no problem at all on death duties being levied on my estate.

                  • SPC

                    If someone wants all liable tax on CG deferred to a tax on the estate. And would also allow all of the estate to be dispersed before death via gift duties, one might surmise they want a design they allows them to avoid paying any such tax.

                    But to then couch this as supporting a tax on inherited wealth, what is left of it, is brazen.

                    It seems you have an understanding of how easy it is to avoid all taxes but PAYE, GST, CGT and a wealth tax. If there is a gift duty, an estate tax is also hard to avoid.

      • Incognito 10.2.3

        Our current tax system has poor and working class people subsidising the lifestyles of the rich. We need to shift this tax burden through new taxes on wealth including capital gains, ghost house tax, financial services tax, and well as land and pollution taxes.

        https://www.maoriparty.org.nz/gst_free_kai

        It is not (yet) a policy, it seems …

        BTW, your link was dated August 06, 2021, i.e., almost 2 years old.

    • Corey 10.3

      Now IS the time to reform our tax system, EVERY other party is pushing tax reforms and the public is demanding it.

      When he says "end of story" the irony is, he's talking about his political career.

      Once again, Labour takes the most gutless, conservative, cowardly approach and brings a knife to a gunfight.

      All this man, has said for six months is what Labour won't do, he's never told us what Labour will do.

      Now in his cowardice, he's attacking his friends policies. , While refusing to release one himself.

      Labour is so terrified of having a debate on anything meaningful, or doing anything meaningful that they've become by definition , atleast economically Tory's, by fighting and refusing change.

      God help us.

      We have Nat/act skyrocketing and threatening and all out class war and Ruthenasia 2.0 and Labours waving a white flag.

      Sometimes I wonder if Labour wants to lose the election because they actually agree with some of what Nat/Act want to do, but couldn't do it themselves so are just throwing the election.

      • Dennis Frank 10.3.1

        just throwing the election

        Heh. Definitely an impression that has entered my mind once or twice the past couple of years! yes

      • Sabine 10.3.2

        Sometimes I wonder if Labour wants to lose the election because they actually agree with some of what Nat/Act want to do, but couldn't do it themselves so are just throwing the election.

        I see it more as a bipartisan effort and National is going to be the one finishing – i agree that Labour might not want to win – what was started a long time ago. Neo-liberalism or Stakeholder Capitalism on steroids. But at least we can identify as a donkey with he/haw pronouns.

  10. Bearded Git 11

    Listening to ZB where they just said that the Te Huia train, which has temporarily been stopped short of Auckland for safety reasons, is carrying 321 people a weekday from Hamilton to Auckland which is regarded as a success.

    • Visubversa 11.1

      Te Huia went through 2 red lights. A big safety problem with trains.

      • Dennis Frank 11.1.1

        Obviously due to hiring Aucklanders. Hire provincial drivers instead. They tend to cruise easily. Problem solved.

    • Belladonna 11.2

      My understanding is that the train will be short-stopped at Papakura, where the passengers will have to transfer to bus – until safety systems can be installed (estimate a year away)

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300925717/te-huia-train-banned-from-auckland-city-after-twice-failing-to-stop-on-red

      The report I heard on RNZ – said that buses would be free this week – but afterwards would have to be paid for by passengers – at an additional cost on top of the rail ticket.

      I'm not clear on why they have to transfer to bus, rather than another rail service (unless it's to do with the ongoing Kiwirail closure of train lines for maintenance)

      But it will mean that travel times will substantially increase – as the buses will be caught up in the southern motorway morning gridlock.

      • Sabine 11.2.1

        And it will also cost more if on top of the train tickets you have to pay full bus price from south akl to britomart and back. Might be cheaper and more convenient to drive the guzzler.

        • Belladonna 11.2.1.1

          I expect that for workers (who are already shelling out $18 for the train fare – the bus would be an extra $7) – it will be the extra time which is the killer, rather than the cost. Combined with the inconvenience of the bus trip (it's relatively doable and relaxed to work on a train as you travel into the city – but not nearly so achievable on a bus)

          So – if your train + bus trip is going to take 3.5- 4 hours, whereas the car takes 2.5 hours – I think most working people would flag the train/bus.

          Current full Te Huia trip is 2.5 hours – (driving is around the same – maybe a little quicker – but no one has been claiming the train trip is significantly faster than driving)

          Frankton to Papakura = 1 hr, 55 mins.

          https://www.tehuiatrain.co.nz/timetables/

          Bus trip from Papakura to Britomart in rush hour = around another 2 hours – according to ATs traffic planner (though it does seem to route you a strange way – the direct bus replacement – if any – may be quicker – possibly 1.5 hours).

          And that's assuming that there will be a bus (or space on it) for a trainload of passengers.

          And further assuming that you manage to get a bus in the afternoon which will get you to Papakura in time to catch the one and only train to Hamilton.

          Still not understanding why AT is promoting a bus replacement, rather than an AT southern line train service (but their communications are often impenetrable)

          • Sabine 11.2.1.1.1

            I am an avid public transport user as i don't have a car. Cost and time is both a consideration.

            The best way to get from Papakura to Auckland is to bus which takes 43 min and costs $7 – $45. Alternatively, you can train, which costs $4 – $50 and takes 50 min.

            so it will take an extra 43 min at a min cost of 5 – 7 one way. 10 – 14 $D per day extra and another 1.5 hours of travel time. Even if you go wit the min 45 – 50$ for the week, that is still a steep price increase.

            You might as well take the guzzler.

            This train was destined to fail from the beginning. Greenwashing at its finest, which is sad, as travelling by train to work is one of the nicest ways to get to and from work, and if done right a lot more people would live without cars. Oh well.

      • William 11.2.2

        The 1news story quotes KiwiRail operations executive manager Paul Ashton as saying

        “For the rest of this week, there will be bus replacements between The Strand, Puhinui and Papakura, and customers will not be charged for this bus replacement service.

        Next week, we will be running the service to Papakura. Customers will then need to connect into an Auckland Transport service using a HOP Card to continue, as they did when Te Huia first launched in April 2021."

        Which I guess includes the possibility of continuing by commuter rail. There's probably a need for AT to organise extra carriages & train staff for next week onwards, although I admit I'm also not up to date with current Auckland track closures for maintenance. The Te Huia ticket could also reduce to reflect the decreased level of service.

        It seems odd to me that other Kiwi Rail services & freight are still to be allowed to run into Auckland when presumably they too lack the now stipulated safety equipment. According to the Public Transport Users Association Press Release there have been multiple other infractions that haven't raised Waka Kotahi's ire, and there's other possible solutions such as double manning in the drivers cab.

        • Belladonna 11.2.2.1

          Yes, I agree that AT rail seems to be a much better solution than bus – and wonder why it's not being promoted.

          The train service from Papakura to Britomart is around an hour – a fair bit quicker and more convenient than buses.

          It would still add around 30 minutes to the trip – but a lot better than nearly 2 hours by bus.

        • Belladonna 11.2.2.2

          According to the Public Transport Users Association Press Release there have been multiple other infractions that haven't raised Waka Kotahi's ire

          If the PTUA have this evidence – then it would be good to release it (or link to where it can be found).

          They don't seem to have a useful web or even Facebook presence at all. It just seems to be PR, rather than actual content.

  11. Cricklewood 12

    Feels like a knee jerk reaction to one bad poll.

    https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/132531178/hipkins-rules-out-wealth-and-capital-gains-tax–end-of-story

    Unsprising but very disappointed.

    • Bearded Git 12.1

      I don't agree with it (and will vote Green) but I think it is quite clever because instead of the focus being on the poor poll the focus is now on a responsive government listening to the people.

      Hipkins justification is weak and illogical though. He was just quoted on RNZ as saying it was not the right time to impose a CGT or WT because of the cost of living crisis. But the Green's WT only negatively effects the top 0.7%; for the other 99.3% it is either neutral or puts money in their pockets.

      • Dennis Frank 12.1.1

        His paranoia seems to come from being seen as reformist. No way he wants that! So we get the paradox of a party pretending to be progressive whilst actually being conservative. Nothing wrong with his attempt to game the system in his cynical way – just a question of how many voters get fooled again.

      • Jack 12.1.2

        Just more stuff Labour won’t do.

        When will labour start announcing what they will do, other than eat sausage rolls of course?

      • Cricklewood 12.1.3

        I don't think it is overly clever he's basically left no room to remain pm and negotiate in good faith with the Green and Te Pati Maori.

        I really believe there is an appetite for tax reform and a big part of that should be a proper cgt. Personally I'd like to see a low but broad cgt that covers even the family home counterbalanced by a healthy tax free threshold hopefully around the 20k mark.

    • BK 12.2

      As expected, another "leader" not doing what is clearly the right thing to do, wouldn't it be nice if a politician actually put the greater good before trying to keep their jobs for another 3 years and they wonder why there is such a low voting turnout at election time.

  12. UncookedSelachimorpha 13

    Exceptionally disappointing announcement from Hipkins re wealth tax.

    "Hipkins said with many New Zealanders struggling with the cost of living it was "simply not the time" for big changes to the tax system."

    What a stupid statement. The whole idea of the wealth tax is to make it easier for 90+% of people! Sort of like "with so much of NZ on fire, now is not the time to invest in fire engines".

    • Bearded Git 13.1

      Agree 100% uncooked

    • Dennis Frank 13.2

      With all due respect, perhaps you don't understand patronage?? Or don't recognise it when you see it motivating a politician is a better way of putting that point.

      The whole point of being a Labour politician is to patronise the poor. It's a trickle-down thing. You give them just enough to stop them starving. Labour do it because they know the poor are incapable of organising as a political force.

      So their modus operandi is to copy the National strategy with just enough cosmetic fluffery on top to fool a slice of voters into believing they're a better option than National. Overall they are – but on economic policy the only real difference is the ratchet effect you get whenever the binary switch kicks in via election result and one lot is turfed out in favour of the other…

  13. Patricia Bremner 14

    Personally I am gutted. Tax should be up for debate. He appears to have sidelined Treasurer Robertson, in a big way, and his choice for DP Minister Sepoloni is not near as clear on the Policy positions.

    Ok Chris Hipkins… what are you going to put up for us to consider, if anything?

    The Greens have a manifesto ,Act has a list of what they will remove and change Nats are getting there, along with a list of what Nats will remove.

    Don't tell us what you won't consider PM… tell us what you will do!!

    Why should we vote for you and your Party?

    Truly I am closer to voting Green and swapping my ongoing donation, than I have ever been. Some times it needs a circuit breaker. imo
    I intend to answer Hayden Munroe’s email with what I think of Chris Hipkin’s disconnect today.

    • SPC 14.1

      GR provided the rationale for it not being the right time earlier in the year.

      • Patricia Bremner 14.1.1

        GR did not remove it from discussion or the future though. That is a big difference.angry CH has taken that chip off the board.

        • SPC 14.1.1.1

          My preference would have been for them to say they could work with the Greens on their income and tax package – most people are better off.

          They have chosen to play the incumbent card – pose the change to NACT as the threat. For that to work they will need to contest better on health, housing and water reforms and question the future societal well-being under NACT policies (American style authoritarian society, class war and the kiwi or iwi on steroids).

          That does at least prevent anyone claiming any defeat was because of the more progressive tax polices – thus allow Labour to develop a campaign on this in 2026.

        • SPC 14.1.1.2

          The latest reports indicate that GR wanted the option of an arrangement with the Greens after the election.

  14. Cricklewood 15

    It funny when you think about it, it's perfectly normal and accepted to pay 2-3% of the purchase price to a real estate agent but its some sort of huge problem to pay a much smaller figure as a cgt to govt.

    It might actually be better to levy say .5 or 1% on the sale price.

    • Jack 15.1

      Big difference. An agents fee is one off, a wealth tax is not.

      • Cricklewood 15.1.1

        I'm not talking about a wealth tax. More of a one off duty or tax when a property is sold. Much easier to administer than a cgt since you wouldn't need a valuation day.

        • Shanreagh 15.1.1.1

          I agree with a tax on real estate sales. My point is that in NZ we buy houses and we die and it is logical for taxes to come in at these points.

          Transaction tax on financial intruments (houses and shares) and death duties. I don't agree that balances in KS accounts should be taxed.

          But these are second tier adjustments after looking at PAYE tax brackets.

          • Cricklewood 15.1.1.1.1

            We actually buy houses and then sell them backwards and forwards amongst ourselves at ever increasing prices leveraged off debt. It's a destructive cycle.

      • SPC 15.1.2

        It's an impost on labour mobility – and it also reduces equity in a new home.

        • Shanreagh 15.1.2.1

          Not so. The rates would be traditionally low say 5-10% if that and it could be graduated and taking account of buying again.

          On death, all the balls are in the air as far as assets go and only a modest tax rate would be needed. The death dutie could come out before the beneficiaries were paid out and so it should not figure in thier new asset calculations. It could have a provison for joint family homes so that the death duties would come in when the survivor of the partnership dies.

    • Dennis Frank 16.1

      The Government was secretly working on a major tax switch that would have seen most Kiwis get a $20 per week tax cut – paid for by a wealth tax.

      And the PM confirmed they were! Give him full marks for honesty, huh? She thinks he's playing chicken. So what? Captain's call.

      The bit that I like is that she cites the poll that showed 53% in favour, so he's aiming for the 47% instead. He's an authentic Labour leader!!! yes laugh

    • scotty 16.2

      Just like that – Its almost like she had her jaundiced response ready to go .

      Should not Jenna Lynch be prefacing her derogatory opinion with a declaration of her conflict of interest .

  15. Dennis Frank 17

    Well-known geopolitical analyst Gordy Campbell dissects the Labour/NATO dance: http://werewolf.co.nz/2023/07/gordon-campbell-on-dancing-with-nato-on-defence/

    Interoperability must be considered and implemented on three levels: the mental one, the structural one, and the materiel one.

    https://www.bundeswehr.de/en/interoperability-acting-together-for-a-secure-future-5644024

    Spot the triad the Germans are using: interoperability = mental/structural/materiel. PM's dancing on the head of an economic/geopolitical pin, which Gordy describes:

    Uh oh. Currently New Zealand devotes 1.37% of GDP annually on defence and security. Since our GDP is currently sitting at about $398 billion, this equals circa $5.17 billion. Raising the figure to 2% would cost $7.96 billion.

    Does that promised “laser like focus” on bread and butter issues at home in any way equate to spending nearly $3 billion extra each year, on defending ourselves against the nebulous threat that is allegedly being posed by our main trading partner? So far, only the ACT Party (and a whole swag of arms-makers and arms dealers) thinks that this would be a good idea.

    Not coincidentally though, Defence Minister Andrew Little has just brought forward to the end of this month the release of the next Defence Strategic Review of this country’s needs, threat perceptions, and military alliance options. It is not as if Labour has been skimping on Defence. As it did with the public health system, Labour inherited armed forces that had been severely run down by National.

    So to differentiate itself during the election campaign, Labour must join the PM's dance and incorporate gymnastics as well. Watch for the back-flip!

  16. Dennis Frank 18

    Another poll today:

    The Taxpayers’ Union – Curia Poll, released on Wednesday, had Labour on 31.1%, after it fell 1.8 percentage points. National also dropped in Wednesday’s poll, down 2.4 percentage points to 33.3%.

    ACT was at 13.2%, the Green Party was at 8.9%, Te Pāti Māori rose 1.5 percentage points to 5% and NZ First rose 1.7 percentage points to 3.3%.

    It was taken between July 2 and 10 2023, with 1000 eligible voters, while the maximum sampling error for a result of 50% is +/- 3.1% at the 95% confidence level. https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/132534001/labour-hit-with-second-bad-poll-result-in-as-many-days

    The report makes the point that this would create a 60/60 hung parliament…

    • newsense 18.1

      Interestingly enough the Herald lead with ‘Both main parties down’ as in it didn’t corroborate the other poll, before changing it to another headline ‘another bad poll for Labour’.

  17. tWiggle 19

    lprent, the quote below, from a philiosophical examination of Stock says it all:

    "Why and how do social media and allied platforms have this potential for distorting genuine communicative action?

    First, they enable new manipulative communication practices, such as flaming and trolling. The popular support base of gender-critical academics makes ample use of these, though gender-critical scholars are also at the receiving end. Rather than using the quasi-spoken features of social media and allied platforms with a view to genuinely advancing understanding, online activists may exploit these features for strategic aims. Common techniques include drowning a post or blog with irrelevant comments; exposing the blogger to ridicule; deflecting attention from the point she made; forcing her to address spurious objections; pretextually professing a failure to understand, demanding endless further explanations; and so on. "

    I've experienced all of the above tactics here at TS around GC 'debates', and I empathise with you.

  18. BR 20

    "It was not Shaw and the Greens who did not listen. Your comments smack of "do something now" when the causes of now were foretold 30 years ago."

    Every climate disaster prediction put out by the alarmists in the last 50 years has failed to eventuate. The whole thing is a fraud.

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

Recent Comments

Recent Posts

  • The second crisis; assumption was the mother
    Late on the night of July 16, 1984, while four National Cabinet Ministers were meeting in the Beehive office of Deputy Prime Minister Jim McLay, plotting the ultimate downfall of outgoing Prime Minister Sir Robert Muldoon, another crisis was building up in another part of the capital. The United States ...
    PolitikBy Richard Harman
    38 mins ago
  • Can we air condition our way out of extreme heat?
    This is a re-post from The Climate Brink by Andrew Dessler Air conditioning was initially a symbol of comfort and wealth, enjoyed by the wealthy in theaters and upscale homes. Over time, as technology advanced and costs decreased, air conditioning became more accessible to the general public. With global warming, though, ...
    10 hours ago
  • Review: The Zimiamvian Trilogy, by E.R. Eddison (1935-1958)
    I have reviewed some fairly obscure stuff on this blog. Nineteenth century New Zealand speculative fiction. Forgotten Tolkien adaptations. George MacDonald and William Morris. Last month I took a look at The Worm Ouroboros (1922), by E.R. Eddison, which while not strictly obscure, is also not overly inviting to many ...
    12 hours ago
  • Media Link: AVFA on the Trump assassination attempt.
    In this episode of “A View from Afar” Selwyn Manning and I discuss the attempt on Donald Trump’s life and its implications for the US elections. The political darkness grows. ...
    KiwipoliticoBy Pablo
    12 hours ago
  • Law & Order: National Party 1, Police 0, Public -1
    What happened?Media is reporting that police have lost in their pay dispute with the Coalition Government.Some of you might remember that the police rejected Labour’s previous offer in September, 2023, possibly looking forward to be taken care of by the self-touted ‘Party of Law and Order’ - National.If you look ...
    Mountain TuiBy Mountain Tui
    13 hours ago
  • Gordon Campbell on the Trump shooting and a potential hike in fees for visiting the doctor
    Having watched Donald Trump systematically exploit social grievances, urge people not to accept his election loss and incite his followers to violent insurrection… it is a bit hard to swallow the media descriptions over the past 24 hours of Trump being a “victim” of violence. More like a case of ...
    WerewolfBy lyndon
    16 hours ago
  • The Kākā's Chorus for Monday July 15
    The exploitation of workers on the national fibre broadband rollout highlights once again the dark underbelly of our ‘churn and burn’ economy. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: The top six things I’ve noted around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy today are:An extraordinary Steve Kilgallon investigation into ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    17 hours ago
  • The Kākā’s Pick 'n' Mix for Monday, July 15
    Photo by Jessica Loaiza on UnsplashTL;DR: My pick of the top six links elsewhere around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last three days to 9:00 am on Monday, July 15 are:Investigation: Immigration NZ refused to prosecute an alleged exploiter despite a mountain of evidence - ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    18 hours ago
  • City Centre Rebuild: How Soon Is Now?
    Patrick Reynolds is deputy chair of the City Centre Advisory Panel and a director of Greater Auckland There is ongoing angst about construction disruption in the city centre. And fair enough: it’s very tough, CRL and other construction has been going on for a very long time. Like the pandemic, ...
    Greater AucklandBy Patrick Reynolds
    20 hours ago
  • Peril, dismay, resolution
    This afternoon we rolled into Budapest to bring to a close our ride across Europe. We did 144 km yesterday, severe heat messages coming in from the weather app as we bounced along unformed Hungarian back roads and a road strip strewn with fallen trees from an overnight tornado. Somewhere ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    20 hours ago
  • Bullet the Blue Sky
    In the locust windComes a rattle and humJacob wrestled the angelAnd the angel was overcomeYou plant a demon seedYou raise a flower of fireWe see them burnin' crossesSee the flames, higher and higherBullet the blue skyBullet the blue skyThe indelible images, the soundtrack of America. Guns, assassinations, where-were-you-when moments attached ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    21 hours ago
  • The Kākā’s Journal of Record for Monday, July 15
    TL;DR: The top six announcements, rulings, reports, surveys, statistics and research around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the three days to 6:00 am on Monday, July 23 are:University of Auckland researcher Ryan Greenaway-McGrevy published an analysis of the impact of Auckland's 2016 zoning reforms.BNZ's latest Performance ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    22 hours ago
  • The Kākā’s diary for the week to July 23 and beyond
    TL;DR: The six key events to watch in Aotearoa-NZ’s political economy in the week to July 23 include:PM Christopher Luxon has returned from a trip to the United States and may hold a post-Cabinet news conference at 4:00 pm today.The BusinessNZ-BNZ PSI survey results for June will be released this ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    22 hours ago
  • Was The Assassination Attempt Fake?
    Hi,It’s in incredible photo, and we’re going to be talking about it for a long time:Trump, triumphantly raising his hand in the air after being shot. Photo credit: Evan VucciYou can watch what happened on YouTube in real time, as a 20-year-old from Pennsylvania lets off a series of gunshots ...
    David FarrierBy David Farrier
    22 hours ago
  • 40 years ago, inside the crisis that made modern NZ
    It had rained all day in Auckland, and the Metro Theatre in Mangere was steamed up inside as more and more people arrived to celebrate what had once seemed impossible. Sir Robert Muldoon had lost the 1984 election. “Piggy” Muldoon was no more. Such was the desire to get rid ...
    PolitikBy Richard Harman
    23 hours ago
  • 2024 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #28
    A listing of 34 news and opinion articles we found interesting and shared on social media during the past week: Sun, July 7, 2024 thru Sat, July 13, 2024. Story of the week It's still early summer in the Northern Hemisphere. The season comes as our first year of 1.5°C warming ...
    1 day ago
  • Unsurprising, but Trump shooting creates opportunity for a surprising response
    I can’t say I’m shocked. As the US news networks offer rolling coverage dissecting the detail of today’s shooting at a Donald Trump rally in Butler, Pennsylvania, and we hear eye-witnesses trying to make sense of their trauma, the most common word being used is shock. And shocking it is. ...
    PunditBy Tim Watkin
    2 days ago
  • Escalation in the States as Trump is shot and his allies capitalize on the moment
    Snapshot summary of the shooting in the States belowAnd a time to remember what Abraham Lincoln once said of the United States of America:We find ourselves in the peaceful possession of the fairest portion of the earth, as regards extent of territory, fertility of soil, and salubrity of climate. We ...
    Mountain TuiBy Mountain Tui
    2 days ago
  • Bernie Sanders: Joe Biden for President
    I will do all that I can to see that President Biden is re-elected. Why? Despite my disagreements with him on particular issues, he has been the most effective president in the modern history of our country and is the strongest candidate to defeat Donald Trump — a demagogue and ...
    Mountain TuiBy Mountain Tui
    2 days ago
  • Questions from God
    Have you invited God into your online life? Do you have answers for his questions? Did I just assume God’s pronouns?Before this goes any further, or gets too blasphemous, a word of explanation. When I say “God”, I don’t meant your god(s), if you have one/them. The God I speak ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    2 days ago
  • The politics of money and influence
    Did you know: Four days ago, the CEO of Warner Bros Discovery (WBD), David Zaslav, opined that he didn’t really care who won the US Presidential election, so long as they were M&A and business friendly. Please share my Substack so I can continue my work. Thank you and happy ...
    Mountain TuiBy Mountain Tui
    2 days ago
  • Auckland & Transport Minister Simeon Brown's insanity
    Excuse me, but I just don’t feel like being polite today. What is going on with Simeon Brown? I mean, really? After spending valuable Ministerial time, focus, and government resources to overturn tailored speed limits in school and high fatality zones that *checks notes* reduces the risk of deaths and ...
    Mountain TuiBy Mountain Tui
    2 days ago
  • Were scientists caught falsifying data in the hacked emails incident dubbed 'climategate'?
    Skeptical Science is partnering with Gigafact to produce fact briefs — bite-sized fact checks of trending claims. This fact brief was written by John Mason in collaboration with members from the Gigafact team. You can submit claims you think need checking via the tipline. Were scientists caught falsifying data in the ...
    2 days ago
  • What Happened to David D'Amato's Millions?
    Today’s podcast episode is for paying Webworm members — and is a conversation seven years in the making. Let me explain.Hi,As I hit “send” on this newsletter, I’m about to play my 2016 documentary Tickled to a theatre full of about 400 Webworm readers in Auckland, New Zealand.And with Tickled ...
    David FarrierBy David Farrier
    2 days ago
  • Voting as a multi-order process of choice.
    Recent elections around the world got me to thinking about voting. At a broad level, voting involves processes and choices. Embedded in both are the logics that go into “sincere” versus “tactical” voting. “Sincere” voting is usually a matter of preferred … Continue reading ...
    KiwipoliticoBy Pablo
    3 days ago
  • Women in Space.
    Count downThree twoI wonderIf I'll ever see you againI'm 'bout to take offI'm leaving youBut maybeI'll see you around somewhere some placeI just need some spaceA brief reminder that if you’re a Gold Card holder you can subscribe to Nick’s Kōrero for 20% off. You’re also welcome to use this ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    3 days ago
  • Bernard’s Saturday Soliloquy for the week to July 13
    Auckland waterfront, July. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: My top six things to note around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the week to July 13 are:The National-ACT-NZ First Coalition Government watered down vehicle emissions standards this week, compounding the climate emissions damage from an increasingly ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    3 days ago
  • Dems need to ask the right question about Biden as his age now defines the campaign
    Midway through the news conference that many American political commentators had built up as critical to Joe Biden’s re-election chances, the US president said European leaders are not asking him not to run for a second term, “they’re saying you gotta win”.The problem for Biden and his advisors is that ...
    PunditBy Tim Watkin
    3 days ago
  • Govt flounders while ocean temps soar
    TL;DR : Here’s the top six items of climate news for Aotearoa-NZ this week, as selected by Bernard Hickey and The Kākā’s climate correspondent Cathrine Dyer, most of which they discussin the video above. According to experts, the rate of ocean surface warming around New Zealand is “outstripping the global ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    3 days ago
  • Learning From Brexit
    Whether Britain leaving the European Union was right or wrong, good or bad is for the Brits to decide. But there are lessons about international trade to be learned from Brexit, especially as it is very unusual for an economy to break so completely from its major training partner.In Econ101 ...
    PunditBy Brian Easton
    3 days ago
  • Bernard’s Chorus for Friday, July 12
    TL;DR: My top six things to note around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day or so on the morning of Friday, July 12 are: Read more ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    4 days ago
  • Hot Damn! It's The Soggy Bottom Boys!
    Good morning lovely people, and welcome to another weekly review. One which saw the our Prime Minister in Washington, running around with all the decorum of Augustus Gloop with a golden ticket, seeking photo opportunities with anyone willing to shake his hand.Image: G News.He had his technique down to overcome ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    4 days ago
  • When an independent expert / advisory group is anything but ..
    OPINION: Yesterday, 1News reported that the Government's "independent" advisory group had recommended Kiwirail offload its ferries to another entity.Except this wasn't entirely new news at all, besides that it came formally from Nicola Willis’s advisory team.TVNZ is under significant cost pressure, and earlier this year, after expressing strong discontent with ...
    Mountain TuiBy Mountain Tui
    4 days ago
  • The Kākā’s Pick 'n' Mix for Friday, July 12
    Photo by Alexander Schimmeck on UnsplashTL;DR: My pick of the top six links elsewhere around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day or so to 9:00 am on Friday, July 12 are:Scoop: Ministerial group advises KiwiRail no longer run Cook Strait ferries 1News’ Julia RodenNews: ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    4 days ago
  • Weekly Roundup 12-July-2024
    Kia ora and welcome to another Friday roundup, in which we pull together some of the links and stories that caught our eye this week. Feel free to add more in the comments! The week in Greater Auckland On Monday, Scott delivered a delicious disquisition on donut cities, ...
    Greater AucklandBy Greater Auckland
    4 days ago
  • The Kākā’s Journal of Record for Friday, July 12
    Photo by Dominik Scythe on UnsplashTL;DR: The top six announcements, rulings, reports, surveys, statistics and research around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the day to 6:00 am on Friday, July 11 are:Climate: Transport Minister Simeon Brown said in a release the Government's plan to reverse New ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    4 days ago
  • The Hoon around the week to July 12
    TL;DR: The podcast above of the weekly ‘hoon’ webinar for paying subscribers features co-hosts and talking with:The Kākā’s climate correspondent talking about the National-ACT-NZ First Government’s climate strategy ‘pamphlet’, its watering down of Clean Car Standards and its general lack of coherence;University of Otago Foreign Relations Professor ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    4 days ago
  • Casey Costello strikes again
    Summary: A track record of deception is becoming evident in the Government’s Coalition alliance. Ministers across all parties have been found to either lie without contrite, and/or act unlawfully and unreasonably. The rails are coming off quicker than a marshmallow induced fantasy train ride as the conductors throw caution to ...
    Mountain TuiBy Mountain Tui
    4 days ago
  • Skeptical Science New Research for Week #28 2024
    Open access notables Antarctic Bottom Water Warming, Freshening, and Contraction in the Eastern Bellingshausen Basin, Johnson et al., Geophysical Research Letters Cold winds blowing over polynyas (areas of ice-free water) on the Antarctic continental shelf create sea ice, forming very cold and somewhat salty, hence very dense, waters. These dense ...
    4 days ago
  • We're back! Join us for the weekly Hoon on YouTube Live
    Photo by Mathias Elle on UnsplashWe’re back after a three-week mid-winter break. I needed a rest, but back into it. We’re still with the ‘new’ day of the week (Thursday rather than Friday) when we have our ‘hoon’ webinar with paying subscribers to The Kākā for an hour at 5 ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    4 days ago
  • Climate Change: National’s gas fantasy
    Yesterday the government released the advice on its proposal to repeal the offshore fossil gas exploration ban, including a Climate Implications of Policy Assessment statement, Cabinet paper, and Regulatory Impact Statement. I spent some time looking at these last night, and the short version is that the government's plan is ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    4 days ago
  • A criminal minister
    RNZ reports that cancer minister Casey Costello has been reprimanded and forced to apologise by the Ombudsman for acting "contrary to law" in her handling of an OIA request: Associate Health Minister Casey Costello has been severely reprimanded by the Chief Ombudsman and forced to apologise for trying to ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    5 days ago
  • Gordon Campbell on Luxon in the NATO pressure cooker
    New Zealand is one of six countries invited as onlookers to this week’s NATO summit in Washington. As such, PM Christopher Luxon will be made aware of the pressure on the 32 NATO member states (a) to increase their Defence spending (b) to become less militarily dependent on the US ...
    WerewolfBy lyndon
    5 days ago
  • Bernard’s Dawn Chorus for Thursday July 11
    TL;DR: My top six things to note around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day or so on the morning of July 11 are:Climate: Climate Change Minister Simon Watts issued the National-ACT-NZ First Coalition Government’s climate strategy yesterday, including a three-page document with five bullet ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    5 days ago
  • By George! Splendid streets take shape down south
    The revitalisation of Auckland city centre, especially around Wynyard Quarter, Te Komititanga, and Queen Street, is top of mind for Greater Auckland readers – but other cities around Aotearoa New Zealandare installing people-friendly streets. This guest post by Jessica de Heij, who grew up in the Netherlands and is an ...
    Greater AucklandBy Guest Post
    5 days ago
  • Bernard's Pick 'n' Mix for Thursday, July 11
    TL;DR: My pick of the top six links elsewhere around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day or so to 7:30 am on July 11 are:Scoop: NZ First Minister acted 'contrary to law’. Casey Costello has been severely reprimanded by the Chief Ombudsman and forced ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    5 days ago
  • The Kākā’s Journal of Record for Thursday, July 11
    TL;DR: The top six announcements, rulings, reports, surveys, statistics and research around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the day to 6:00 am on Thursday, July 11 are:Economy: Te Pūtea Matua The Reserve Bank of New Zealand (RBNZ) announced its Monetary Policy Committee decided to hold the ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    5 days ago
  • Farmers’ revenge meets Green resistance
    If there was one issue that united farmers in opposition to the Labour Government, it was the battle of the waterways between farmers and Environment Minister David Parker. Parker won the first round with his 2020 National Policy Standard on Freshwater Management (NPSFM) which imposed tough new standards on waterways ...
    PolitikBy Richard Harman
    5 days ago
  • Personal Reflections: 10th July
    Please note: This is a personal reflection and does not refer to politics. These entries are not sent to subscribers.Text within this block will maintain its original spacing when publishedHubris and Pride Out of the fire and into the frying pan? Swimming with the big sharks Tonight, I am excited. ...
    Mountain TuiBy Mountain Tui
    5 days ago
  • Oh Vienna
    Nothing can warm your heart like the sight of your daughter stepping off a train. Mary-Margaret arrived on Saturday to ride with us to Vienna.You know your way around a bike? the guy at the hire shop asks her. Yep. She’s ridden them on rail trails, Auckland’s mean streets, commutes ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    5 days ago
  • Geoffrey Miller: New Zealand forges deeper ties with NATO
    Christopher Luxon is finding his foreign policy feet. Now eight months into the job, New Zealand’s Prime Minister is in Washington DC this week to attend the NATO summit. It is the third year in a row that Wellington has been invited to the annual gathering of the North Atlantic ...
    Democracy ProjectBy Geoffrey Miller
    5 days ago
  • Climate Change: National’s carbon capture fantasy
    As the climate crisis has grown worse, the tactics of the polluting industries have shifted. From denying climate change, they then moved on to pushing "carbon capture" - dumping their emissions underground rather than in the atmosphere. It's a PR scam, intended to prolong the life of the industry we ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    5 days ago
  • Harsh Truths.
    The Way We Were: An indelible mark was left upon a whole generation of New Zealanders by the Great Depression and World War II; an impression that not only permitted men and women of all classes and races to perceive the need to work together for the common good, but also ...
    6 days ago
  • Explainer: Simeon Brown's CCUS Announcement
    Sources for the data and research:Peter Milne: Time’s up on Gorgon’s five years of carbon storage failureSimon Holmes a Court: "Does best CCS power station in world provide model for Australia?" Chris Vanderstock: "The truth about Carbon Capture and Storage"   "Sunk Costs": documenting CCS's failure to meet every, single, target, ...
    Mountain TuiBy Mountain Tui
    6 days ago
  • The Kiwirail Interislander saga continues
    This morning, 1 News is reporting that the cancellation of the i-Rex ferries has so far cost taxpayers $484 million.That's almost half a billion dollars. That could probably fund thousands of new doctors, maybe complete a few hospital rebuilds, or how about money for our experienced police so they don’t ...
    Mountain TuiBy Mountain Tui
    6 days ago
  • Bernard’s Chorus for Wednesday, July 10
    As foreshadowed in legislation passed quietly under urgency just before Christmas, the Transport Minister has personally watered down standards for car imports in a way expected to add millions of tonnes to our climate emissions Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: My top six things to note around housing, climate ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    6 days ago
  • Christopher Luxon's business acumen
    It’s April, and the relatively new Prime Minister of New Zealand is on his first overseas mission to South East Asia.Christopher Luxon walks into the room. A warm smile on his face. A hand extended to his counterpart.“We are open for business,” he says confidently. “New Zealand is under new ...
    Mountain TuiBy Mountain Tui
    6 days ago
  • Meet New Zealand's Russell Brand?
    Hi,There is an all too common story within the guru community, and we see it play out again and again. The end is nearly always the same — a trail of victims and confusion left in the guru’s wake.As seen in the recent case of Russell Brand, the guru simply ...
    David FarrierBy David Farrier
    6 days ago
  • Why is the Government flooring it on unsafe speeds?
    Feedback closes midnight Thursday 11 July, on the draft speed-setting rule. See our previous post on the subject for details, and guidance on having your say. Among other things, it proposes to raise speeds in cities back up to a universal 50km/h (with no option of 30km/h), and will restrict safe ...
    Greater AucklandBy Greater Auckland
    6 days ago
  • American Boy
    Take me on a trip, I'd like to go some dayTake me to New York, I'd love to see LAI really want to come kick it with youYou'll be my American boy…Love letters straight from the heart. Hmm, I think that’s a different tune, but that’s where we’ll begin. With ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    6 days ago
  • Bernard's Pick 'n' Mix for Wednesday, July 10
    Photo by Jannis Brandt on UnsplashTL;DR: My pick of the top six links elsewhere around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day or so to 7:00 am are:Investigation: Benefitting from the misery of others. Over 40% of emergency housing funding went to a concentrated group ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    6 days ago
  • The Kākā’s Journal of Record for Wednesday, July 10
    Photo by Mr Cup / Fabien Barral on UnsplashTL;DR: The top six announcements, reports and research around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the day to 6:30 am on Wednesday, July 10 are:Climate: Minister for Transport Simeon Brown announced changes to the Clean Car Importer Standard that ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    6 days ago
  • How rural families are saving thousands with electric vehicles
    This is a re-post from Yale Climate Connections by Daisy Simmons (Photo credit: Automotive Rhythms / CC BY-NC 2.0) Some people thought Juliana Dockery and her husband Sean were being impractical when they bought an electric vehicle in 2022. Why? Like one in five Americans, they live in a rural area ...
    6 days ago
  • Love to complete it all
    Photo credit: Rob DickinsonThis is my wish for you: Comfort on difficult days, smiles when sadness intrudes, rainbows to follow the clouds, laughter to kiss your lips, sunsets to warm your heart, hugs when spirits sag, beauty for your eyes to see, friendships to brighten your being, faith so that ...
    Mountain TuiBy Mountain Tui
    6 days ago
  • Climate Change: What’s left of the Emissions Reduction Plan?
    In 2019, Parliament, in a supposed bipartisan consensus, passed the Zero Carbon Act. The Act established long-term emissions reduction targets, and a cycle of five-yearly budgets and emissions reduction plans to meet them, with monitoring by the independent Climate Change Commission. In theory this was meant to ensure that the ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    6 days ago
  • The President They Have Got.
    “This cannot be real life!” Confronted with the choice of recommitting themselves to the myth of Joe Biden, or believing the evidence of their own eyes, those Americans not already committed to Donald Trump will reach out instinctively for the President they wish they had – blind to the President they ...
    6 days ago
  • Has Progressivism Peaked?
    Let’s Go Crazy! AOC (Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez) rarks-up the voters of New York’s 16th Congressional District.HAVE WE MOVED past peak progressivism? Across the planet, there are signs that the surge of support for left-wing causes and personalities, exemplified by the election of the democratic socialist Alexandria Ocasio Cortez (AOC) to the US House ...
    7 days ago
  • The Kākā’s Dawn Chorus for July 9
    TL;DR: The top six things I’ve noted around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day are:Labour may be looking at signing up for an Irish style 33% inheritance tax instead of or as well as a capital gains tax;Sam Stubbs has proposed the Government sell ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    7 days ago
  • Mr Luxon goes to Washington.
    Once fastened servile now your getting sharpMoving oh so swiftly with such disarmI pulled the covers over him shoulda' pulled the alarmTurned to my nemesis a fool no fucking godTuesday morning usually provides something to write about with a regular round of interviews for the Prime Minister across Newshub, TVNZ, ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    7 days ago
  • Kiwirail at Councils Transport & Infrastructure Committee
    Last week at the Council’s Transport and Infrastructure Committee, Kiwirail gave an update about the state of the network and the work they’re doing to get it ready for the opening of the City Rail Link. There were a few aspects that stood out to me so I’ve pulled them ...
    Greater AucklandBy Greater Auckland
    7 days ago
  • Bernard's Pick 'n' Mix for Tuesday, July 9
    Photo by City Church Christchurch on UnsplashTL;DR: The top six links elsewhere I’ve spotted around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day to 8:00 am are:Scoop: Waipareira Trust political donations probe referred to Charities Registration Board NZ Herald-$$$’s Matt NippertScoop: Migrant whistleblowers speak out after ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    7 days ago
  • What’s next after Supreme Court curbs regulatory power: More focus on laws’ wording, less on the...
    This article by Robin Kundis Craig, Professor of Law, University of Kansas is republished from The Conversation under a Creative Commons license. Read the original article. Federal Chevron deference is dead. On June 28, 2024, in a 6-3 vote, the Supreme Court overturned the 40-year-old legal tenet that when a federal ...
    7 days ago
  • The folly of retreat in the face of defeat
    Note: This is a long readPolitical discourse on social media taught me that bad faith operators and tactics are not only prevalent, they are widespread and effective.Thanks for reading Mountain Tui! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support my work.Their objectives are much narrower than one might imagine.The ...
    Mountain TuiBy Mountain Tui
    7 days ago
  • The Parent Zone
    Hi,I am about to wing my way back to New Zealand for the Webworm popup this Saturday in Auckland — can’t wait to see some of you there! In the meantime, I highly recommend the latest pet thread over on the Webworm app. All I’ll say is that readers here ...
    David FarrierBy David Farrier
    7 days ago
  • Tuesday: The Kākā’s Journal of Record for July 9
    Photo by Alex Zaj on UnsplashTL;DR: The top six announcements, speeches, news conferences reports and research around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the day to 6:00 am on Tuesday, July 9 are:Politics: Full news conference: 'Please resign', Chloe Swarbrick tells Darleen Tana RNZ VideoPaper: Increasing speed ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    7 days ago

  • NZ, Korea strengthen relationship
    New Zealand and the Republic of Korea continue to strengthen their relationship, Foreign Minister Winston Peters says.   “New Zealand and Korea have a long history – from New Zealand soldiers fighting in the Korean War, through to our strong cooperation today as partners supporting the international rules-based order.    ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    8 hours ago
  • Investing for future growth in tourism and hospitality
    The Government is moving forward with recommendations from the Tourism Data Leadership Group, beginning with establishing a Tourism Data Partnership Fund says Tourism and Hospitality Minister Matt Doocey. “The Tourism Data Partnership Fund is funded through the International Visitor Conservation and Tourism Levy (IVL) and will provide up to $400,000 ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    17 hours ago
  • Trade Minister to attend G7 meeting in Italy
    Trade Minister Todd McClay will attend the Group of Seven (G7) Trade Ministers meeting in Reggio Calabria, Italy next week. This is the first time New Zealand has been invited to join the event, which will be attended by some of the world’s largest economies and many of New Zealand’s ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Ministers reveal consequences for unruly Kāinga Ora tenants
    Ministers are pleased to see Kāinga Ora taking a stronger approach to managing unruly, threatening or abusive tenants, Housing Minister Chris Bishop and Associate Housing Minister Tama Potaka say.    “For far too long, a small number of Kāinga Ora tenants have ridden roughshod over their neighbours because, under Kāinga ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Prime Minister wraps up US visit in California
    Prime Minister Christopher Luxon has finished a successful four-day visit to the United States with meetings in California on his final day focusing on innovation and investment.  “It has been fantastic to be in San Francisco today seeing first-hand the deepening links between New Zealand and California. “New Zealand company, EV Maritime, ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Prime Minister leads Indo-Pacific Four at NATO
    Prime Minister Christopher Luxon today chaired a meeting of the Indo-Pacific Four (IP4) countries – Australia, Japan, the Republic of Korea and New Zealand. The IP4 met in the context of NATO’s Summit in Washington DC hosted by President Biden. “Prosperity is only possible with security,” Mr Luxon says. “We need ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • District Court judges appointed
    Attorney-General Hon Judith Collins today announced the appointment of three new District Court Judges.   The appointees, who will take up their roles in July and August at the Manukau, Rotorua and Invercargill courts, are:   Matthew Nathan Judge Nathan was admitted to bar in New Zealand in 2021, having previously been ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Urgent review into Wairoa flood response begins
    Environment Minister, Penny Simmonds today announced the terms of reference for a rapid review into the Wairoa flood response. “The Wairoa community has raised significant concerns about the management of the Wairoa River bar and the impact this had on flooding of properties in the district,” says Ms Simmonds. “The Government ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • NZDF’s Red Sea deployment extended
    New Zealand has extended its contribution to the US-led coalition working to uphold maritime security in the Red Sea, Defence Minister Judith Collins and Foreign Minister Winston Peters announced today. “The decision to extend this deployment is reflective of the continued need to partner and act in line with New ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Government provides support to tackle tax debt and compliance
    New compliance funding in Budget 2024 will ensure Inland Revenue is better equipped to catch individuals who are evading their tax obligations, Revenue Minister Simon Watts says. “New Zealand’s tax debt had risen to almost $7.4 billion by the end of May, an increase of more than 50 per cent since 2022. ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Taking action to reduce road cones
    The Coalition Government is taking action to reduce expenditure on road cones and temporary traffic management (TTM) while maintaining the safety of workers and road users, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says.  Rolling out a new risk-based approach to TTM that will reduce the number of road cones on our roads.  ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Celebrating 100 years of progress
    Te Arawa Lakes Trust centenary celebrations mark a significant milestone for all the important work done for the lakes, the iwi and for the Bay of Plenty region, says Māori Crown Relations: Te Arawhiti and Māori Development Minister Tama Potaka. The minister spoke at a commemorative event acknowledging 100 years ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Foreign Minister to travel to Korea and Japan
    Foreign Minister Winston Peters will travel to the Republic of Korea and Japan next week.    “New Zealand enjoys warm and enduring relationships with both Korea and Japan. Our relationships with these crucial partners is important for New Zealand’s ongoing prosperity and security,” says Mr Peters.    While in the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Huge opportunity for educators and students as charter school applications open
    Associate Education Minister David Seymour says today is another important step towards establishing charter schools, with the application process officially opening.  “There has already been significant interest from groups and individuals interested in opening new charter schools or converting existing state schools to charter schools,” says Mr Seymour. “There is ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Decreasing gas reserves data highlights need to reverse oil and gas exploration ban
    MBIE’s annual Petroleum Reserves report detailing a 20 per cent reduction in New Zealand’s natural gas reserves shows the need to reverse the oil and gas exploration ban, Energy Minister Simeon Brown says.“Figures released by MBIE show that there has been a 20 per cent reduction in New Zealand’s natural ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Providers of military assistance to Russia targeted in new sanctions
    Foreign Minister Winston Peters has announced further sanctions as part of the Government’s ongoing response to Russia’s illegal invasion of Ukraine.    “Russia’s continued illegal war of aggression against Ukraine is a direct and shocking assault on the rules-based order. Our latest round of sanctions targets Russians involved in that ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • OECD report shows New Zealand is a red tape state
    Minister for Regulation David Seymour says that the OECD Product Market Regulation Indicators (PMRI) released this morning shows why New Zealanders sorely need regulatory reform. “This shocker result should end any and all doubt that the Government must go to war on red tape and regulation,” says Mr Seymour.  “The ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Government unveils five-point climate strategy
    The coalition Government is proud to announce the launch of its Climate Strategy, a comprehensive and ambitious plan aimed at reducing the impacts of climate change and preparing for its future effects, Climate Change Minister Simon Watts says. “The Strategy is built on five core pillars and underscores the Government’s ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • National Bowel Screening Programme reaches 2 million life-saving screening kits
    The National Bowel Screening Programme has reached a significant milestone, with two million home bowel screening kits distributed across the country, Health Minister Dr Shane Reti announced today.   “This programme, which began in 2017, has detected 2,495 cancers as of June 2024. A third of these were at an early ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Granny flats popular with all ages
    More than 1,300 people have submitted on the recent proposal to make it easier to build granny flats, RMA Reform Minister Chris Bishop and Building and Construction Minister Chris Penk say. “The strong response shows how popular the proposal is and how hungry the public is for common sense changes to make ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • $25 million boost for conservation
    Toitū te taiao – our environment endures!  New Zealanders will get to enjoy more of our country’s natural beauty including at Cathedral Cove – Mautohe thanks to a $25 million boost for conservation, Conservation Minister Tama Potaka announced today.  “Te taiao (our environment) is critical for the country’s present and ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • New Zealand increases support for Ukraine
    Prime Minister Christopher Luxon and Foreign Minister Winston Peters have announced a further $16 million of support for Ukraine, as it defends itself against Russia’s illegal invasion. The announcement of further support for Ukraine comes as Prime Minister Luxon attends the NATO Leaders’ Summit in Washington DC. “New Zealand will provide an additional ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Country Kindy to remain open
    Associate Education Minister David Seymour says that Country Kindy in Manawatu will be able to remain open, after being granted a stay from the Ministry of Education for 12 weeks. “When I heard of the decision made last week to shut down Country Kindy I was immediately concerned and asked ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Government lifts Indonesian trade cooperation
    New export arrangements signed today by New Zealand and Indonesia will boost two-way trade, Trade and Agriculture Minister Todd McClay says. Mr McClay and Dr Sahat Manaor Panggabean, Chairman of the Indonesia Quarantine Authority (IQA), signed an updated cooperation arrangement between New Zealand and Indonesia in Auckland today. “The cooperation arrangement paves the way for New Zealand and Indonesia to boost our $3 billion two-way trade and further ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Carbon capture framework to reduce emissions
    A Carbon Capture, Utilisation and Storage (CCUS) framework has been released by the Coalition Government for consultation, providing an opportunity for industry to reduce net CO2 emissions from gas use and production, Energy Minister Simeon Brown says. “Our Government is committed to reducing red tape and removing barriers to drive investment ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Faster consenting with remote inspections
    The Government is progressing a requirement for building consent authorities to use remote inspections as the default approach so building a home is easier and cheaper, Building and Construction Minister Chris Penk says. “Building anything in New Zealand is too expensive and takes too long. Building costs have increased by ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 days ago
  • Revision programme presented to Parliament
    A new revision programme enabling the Government to continue the progressive revision of Acts in New Zealand has been presented to Parliament, Attorney-General Judith Collins announced today. “Revision targets our older and outdated or much-amended Acts to make them more accessible and readable without changing their substance,” Ms Collins says. ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 days ago
  • Government aligns Clean Car Importer Standard with Australia to reduce vehicle prices for Kiwis
    The Government will be aligning the Clean Car Importer Standard with Australia in order to provide the vehicle import market with certainty and ease cost of living pressures on Kiwis the next time they need to purchase a vehicle, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says.“The Government supports the Clean Car Importer ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 days ago
  • NZQA Board appointments
    Education Minister Erica Stanford has today announced three appointments to the New Zealand Qualifications Authority (NZQA). Kevin Jenkins has been appointed as the new Chair of the NZQA Board while Bill Moran MNZM has been appointed as the Deputy Chair, replacing Pania Gray who remains on the Board as a ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 days ago
  • More support for Wairoa clean-up
    A further $3 million of funding to Wairoa will allow Wairoa District Council to get on with cleaning up household waste and sediment left by last week’s flooding, Emergency Management and Recovery Minister Mark Mitchell says.  In Budget 24 the Government provided $10 million to the Hawke’s Bay Region to ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Minister thanks outgoing Secretary for Education
    Education Minister Erica Stanford has today thanked the outgoing Secretary for Education. Iona Holsted was appointed in 2016 and has spent eight years in the role after being reappointed in May 2021. Her term comes to an end later this year.  “I acknowledge Iona’s distinguished public service to New Zealand ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Minister concludes local government review
    Local Government Minister Simeon Brown has concluded the Future for Local Government Review and confirmed that the Coalition Government will not be responding to the review’s recommendations.“The previous government initiated the review because its Three Waters and resource management reforms would have stripped local government of responsibility for water assets ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Consultation begins on new cancer medicines
    Associate Health Minister for Pharmac David Seymour says today’s announcement that Pharmac is opening consultation on new cancer medicines is great news for Kiwi cancer patients and their families. “As a result of the coalition Government’s $604 million funding boost, consultation is able to start today for the first two ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • 50 years on, Niue and NZ look to the future
    A half-century after pursuing self-government, Niue can count on New Zealand’s steadfast partnership and support, Deputy Prime Minister Winston Peters says. “New Zealand and Niue share a unique bond, forged over 50 years of free association,” Mr Peters says. “We are looking forward to working together to continue advancing Niue’s ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • Upgrading system resulting in faster passport processing
    Acting Internal Affairs Minister David Seymour says wait times for passports are reducing, as the Department of Internal Affairs (the Department) reports the highest ever monthly figure for digital uptake in passport applications.  “As of Friday 5 July, the passport application queue has reduced by 34.4 per cent - a ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • Roads of National Significance moving at pace
    Transport Minister Simeon Brown has welcomed news that the NZ Transport Agency (NZTA) is getting on with the Government’s first seven Roads of National Significance (RoNS) projects expected to begin procurement, enabling works and construction in the next three years.   “Delivering on commitments in our coalition agreements, we are moving ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • New school for Flat Bush
    The Coalition Government is building for roll growth and easing pressure in Auckland’s school system, by committing to the construction of a new primary school, Education Minister Erica Stanford says. As part of Budget 24’s $456 million injection into school property growth, a new primary school (years 1-6) will be ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • Dr Shane Reti's speech to Iwi-Maori Partnership Boards, Rotorua
    Dr Shane Reti's speech to Iwi-Maori Partnership Boards, Thursday 4 July 2024    Mānawa maiea te putanga o Matariki Mānawa maiea te ariki o te rangi Mānawa maiea te Mātahi o te tau Celebrate the rising of Matariki Celebrate the rising of the lord of the skies Celebrate the rising ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • Announcement of Mental Health Targets and Mental Health and Addiction Community Sector Innovation Fu...
    Kia Ora Koutou, Tena Koutou, Good Morning. Thank you Mahaki Albert for the warm welcome. Thank you, Prime Minister, and thank you everyone for coming today. When I look around the room this morning, I see many of our hard-working mental health and addictions workforce from NGO and Community groups, ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago
  • Expert panel appointed to review Public Works Act
    An independent expert advisory panel has been appointed to review the Public Works Act to make it easier to build infrastructure, Minister for Land Information Chris Penk has announced.  “The short, sharp review demonstrates the Government’s commitment to progressing critical infrastructure projects and reducing excessive regulatory and legislative barriers, so ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago

Page generated in The Standard by Wordpress at 2024-07-15T15:38:52+00:00