Open Mike 12/12/2017

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, December 12th, 2017 - 150 comments
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150 comments on “Open Mike 12/12/2017 ”

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  1. vto 1
    12 December 2017 at 6:30 am

    Bill wants to shake the tree which is rotten and keeps producing bad apples .. https://thestandard.org.nz/shaking-the-tree/

    Suggestions elsewhere that the tree has rot didn’t seem to be viewed favourably https://thestandard.org.nz/people-of-the-year/#comment-1423681 It appears the view here is that the bad apples are the fault of the apples and not the tree

    And neither did a suggestion yesterday to widen our legislative framework for violence crimes. You know… to shake the tree and deal with its widespread rot. In fact some here couldn’t even stomach looking at the tree https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-11-12-2017/#comment-1424699

    Nope.
    Bill’s right.
    The tree is the problem.
    And nobody wants to deal with it.

    [1 week ban for blatantly lying about my moderation and views and for not responding to moderation when requested. For future reference, if you want to comment on gender I suggest you start being direct and clear about what you think and stop making shit up about other people’s views. This includes backing up your arguments in the ways outlined in that moderation. – weka]

    [ban extended to 1 month for abusing an author via comments in the back end. If you want to talk about gender on TS, the boundaries are now clearly set. – weka]

    • Pat 1.1
      12 December 2017 at 6:59 am

      Except if you read Bill’s post you will understand that he believes ‘shaking the tree’ is pointless…may pay to read it again.

      “We had to destroy Ben Tre in order to save it”

      http://www.nhe.net/BenTreVietnam/

      or if you wish to stick with forest analogies, shall we fire up the chainsaws to rid ourselves of Phytophthora Agathidicida?

      http://www.forestandbird.org.nz/saving-our-environment/threats-and-impacts-/kauri-dieback-disease-help-protect-the-kings-our-forest

      • Bill 1.1.1
        12 December 2017 at 9:32 am

        Maybe you should re-read it yourself Pat. Limited and/or problematic is not the same as pointless.

        • marty mars 1.1.1.1
          12 December 2017 at 9:36 am

          You want he tree uprooted because shaking won’t fix the fundamental problems don’t you? That was my reading of the post and subsequent comments. Thus shaking the bad apples out is ultimately no point because it doesn’t deal with the problem causing the bad apples.

          • Bill 1.1.1.1.1
            12 December 2017 at 9:46 am

            Something about the comments in that post, that I’ll comment on here since you bring it up, is that the analogy was NZFemme’s. And links were provided back to the context (to show consistency – ie, that I wasn’t taking it out of context)

            And it’s an analogy that’s certainly set some people off. But here’s the odd thing. In all of the comments, not one questions NZFemme’s thinking or reasoning behind it. Not one.

            But anyway. Systems of oppression recreate themselves. That’s hardly contentious. Simply bringing people to account isn’t pointless – it’s limited, and as Rebecca Solnit points out, problematic.

            • marty mars 1.1.1.1.1.1
              12 December 2017 at 9:54 am

              It seemed a few people wondered about uprooting the tree to me but I may have it wrong I spose.

              • Bill …
                12 December 2017 at 9:59 am

                No-one directed any comment on the analogy at NZFemme – neither directly nor indirectly. I don’t quite know what to make of that. For now, I’ll settle for simply saying “odd”.

        • Pat 1.1.1.2
          12 December 2017 at 9:48 am

          “Nothing of substance or note is ever meant to change. And nothing of substance or note will change.”
          https://thestandard.org.nz/shaking-the-tree/

          You didnt intend to imply pointlessness?….,my mistake.

          • Bill 1.1.1.2.1
            12 December 2017 at 9:56 am

            What do you even care Pat? You just want to “tend the forest”…maintain the status quo and protect your fucking privilege and social standing in lieu of tackling the underlying and structural contributory factors to women being variously and continually put upon, harassed, assaulted and raped.

            That thread, depressing as fuck though many of the comments are, did at least serve to reveal the true colours of a few people.

            • Pat 1.1.1.2.1.1
              12 December 2017 at 9:59 am

              Thanks Bill…and you’re welcome

            • marty mars 1.1.1.2.1.2
              12 December 2017 at 10:15 am

              Pretty harsh analysis there bill imo

            • McFlock 1.1.1.2.1.3
              12 December 2017 at 11:47 am

              Serious question, Bill:

              You made this comment at 8:07am this morning, which I thought I’d responded to an hour or so ago, but it wasn’t there when I just checked so I responded again on the assumption that I’d forgotten to press “submit” (happens occasionally).

              But the second one didn’t come up, either. But other comments by me have.

              Did you do anything in the backend so I couldn’t respond to the question you asked, or is there something finicky going on on my machine? I apologise if this is not the case, I genuinely don’t know.

              • Andre …
                12 December 2017 at 11:55 am

                I get that experience sometimes too. Then I’ll have a good look at what I’m trying to say and change any words or links that might be triggering some kind of automated rules, and then they go through fine.

                • weka …
                  12 December 2017 at 12:56 pm

                  there aren’t any keywords sending comments to moderation at the moment, and they wouldn’t go straight to Trash. I think it’s a random bug, it happened a while back too.

                  • Andre …
                    12 December 2017 at 1:16 pm

                    IIRC the last time it happened I was using a nickname for the SCROTUS that would have been particularly offensive in the US, not so much in NZ (sorry I don’t remember what it was but it seemed a good one at the time). So I figured maybe WordPress has some filters as well as what’s done locally here.

              • Bill …
                12 December 2017 at 12:47 pm

                I haven’t touched any of your comments McFlock.

                I’ve just this second checked “trash” and there are two comments from you sitting there.

                Both it seems were intended for the “Shaking the Tree” post.

                One from 11:40 and another from 10:09.

                edit – I don’t have the wherewithal to shift them from there to the post. I can shift them to Open Mike, I can cut/paste and email them to you, you can rewrite along similar lines and try again, or you can know that I’ve read them.

                • weka …
                  12 December 2017 at 1:01 pm

                  I found a way of putting it back in the right place (will make a note of how in the back end).

                  McFlock, you should see them both there shortly.

                  • Bill …
                    12 December 2017 at 1:22 pm

                    That would be being a fucking palaver that would!

                    Comment hits trash, then unless it’s a really outstanding comment, it ain’t going to be retrieved by me working my way through those all those bobs and whistles 🙂

                    But yeah. Good to know.

                • McFlock …
                  12 December 2017 at 2:29 pm

                  Cheers for that, Bill and Weka.

                  Weird. Apparently I found out how to break things in a new and interesting way. It was before my coffee, though 🙂

    • One Anonymous Bloke 1.2
      12 December 2017 at 7:12 am

      a suggestion yesterday to widen our legislative framework for violence crimes

      The problem with that suggestion is that you can’t actually say what it is or why it isn’t already covered by existing sections of the Crimes, Summary Offences, or other acts.

      When invited to do so you start throwing your toys and accusing other people of being “afraid”.

      Are you afraid to suggest which crimes should be added, or which sections of the Crimes Act should be amended? If not, then why can’t you actually just say what you mean?

    • One Anonymous Bloke 1.3
      12 December 2017 at 7:19 am

      some here couldn’t even stomach looking

      That is a blatantly false assertion.

      I note that the Dunedin study’s sample group is 1003, and Professor Fergusson’s caveat on that basis.

      Yes, your very own source – the study’s author – undermines your conclusion.

  2. eco maori 2
    12 December 2017 at 7:18 am

    Many thanks to Ross Taylor for his great achievement and for being a excellent role model for all our mokos. My second youngest granddaughter well I call her hurricane she going through her terrible 2s just going on 3 she would have Santa running out the door many thanks to Our sevens team for there great win Ka pai.
    Everyone got big smiles I no I’m human and will tell anyone that at least I can admit to my faults unlike you bullshit bull you would lie and say you don’t do that human think. As for the books I know you cooked you neo liberals can’t help your self but to cheat. Your idea of justice is you imposs it on us poor and give impunity to the wealthy yes poor people of the World don’t be shocked when your justice systems serve you up injustices as THIS IS THE WAY OF OUR WORLD. I will be spending all my Christmas money at The Ware House because they have been good to my family
    And have a lot of brown kiwi staff and try and employ the youth. My wife has surgical mesh I was sceptical this shows that big business is in humane and worship there profit over humanity and mother nature this is going to change when we get more Lady’s up the top run on there ladders of life. I wonder if those people are going to carry on passing in the wind Kia kaha

  3. eco maori 3
    12 December 2017 at 7:32 am

    Well I will say that most big businesses act under humanly just like OUR justice systems Ana to kai

  4. eco maori 4
    12 December 2017 at 7:54 am

    Bullshit bull has cooked the books. That’s why he knows there is no money. I don’t mind not having a tax cut of $20 a week I spend that in my sleep I would rather see our valuerable people have a more humane life. Unlike bull he see the poor as a necessity so business can get there profits and see us as un human Ana to kai

    • cleangreen 4.1
      12 December 2017 at 8:36 am

      I am solidly with Eco Maori on this one, Bullshit Bill is nothoing but a slmeball lyiong toad, as bad as his boss Shonkey is.

      Have no doubt National has set up Labour for a big fall!!!

      So Labour; – we need to see what National have left us with.

      The deficet National has left the Government purse with must be very large and wider than anyone of us will know at present.

      I have no doubt they borrowed more money against future “promised sales of any other assets” they were preparing us all for as they were always acting with secrecy.

    • eco maori 4.2
      12 December 2017 at 9:25 am

      Yep they are still pissing in the wind eco says thanks for the Mana and I won’t back down. You no when I said that I tried to dispute those fines well thats not all that story. I tried to make a complaint against the officer he would not give me his name or badge number. I went to there website and it stated that you can get one from the local station you can print a form off the site for ones complaint how many people have axcess to those resources I went to the local station and go the there are no forms we don’t no were they are you don’t need to make a complaint I can print one for you I new I was pissing in the wind so this is how accountable they are under the shonky key bullshit rule for nine years and the 75 years old ass holes running our justice system
      No one can make a complaint so there farcical image is perramount PS I try to print it but No could not get the form. Ana to kai

      • eco maori 4.2.1
        12 December 2017 at 9:48 am

        Well they didn’t like that last post I’m in the mount and sirens going off idiots LOL Ana to kai

        • eco maori 4.2.1.1
          12 December 2017 at 11:55 am

          They must sit together all the time to plan there bullshit It would go hay dopey shall we let some fire works of tonight and that will make eco confess to being a savage idiot Maori thief as we no but he have everyone under a spell no snezie we will get that girl to ask him to leave some grass clippings and we can tell everyone that eco is a idiot nar dip shit we will bait one of his relations arrest them and pay them $5000 to sing us a song that will give us the evidence to arrested that evil theif eco Maori the 7 clowns Ana to kai

    • BM 5.1
      12 December 2017 at 8:30 am

      Not really, from the article

      If they’re going to have child poverty reduction targets, the Government has to show how they’re actually going to achieve them. Otherwise you’re just fooling people.

      “There is no indication they’ve got a plan at all. So putting legislation targets will look a bit cynical when there’s actually no plan.”

      But he’s not ruling out backing the Government.

      “We would come on board if there are some genuine plans to reduce child poverty.

      Ball’s in Arderns court.

      • mauī 5.1.1
        12 December 2017 at 9:08 am

        Now there’s a leader in the making, hashtag Honest Bill.

      • millsy 5.1.2
        12 December 2017 at 9:45 am

        So long as Bill English supports booting state housing tenants from their homes, and running down HNZ’s stock, I do not belive he has any desire to reduce poverty of any kind.

      • McFlock 5.1.3
        12 December 2017 at 11:23 am

        Why doesn’t he share Stephen Joyce’s plan to lift 100k kids out of poverty? He must have had a plan when he announced that target.

        • BM 5.1.3.1
          12 December 2017 at 12:18 pm

          I thought Labour had all the answers.

          • Andre 5.1.3.1.1
            12 December 2017 at 12:33 pm

            I’m confident they’re opportunistic enough to take a good idea from the Nats, run with it, and claim it as their own. If the Nats had any good ideas, that is. After all, the Nats showed how to do that plenty of times over the last few years.

  6. Ed 6
    12 December 2017 at 8:09 am

    ‘Dairy farming could pollute the water drunk by our grandchildren in years to come as scientists have found waste from intensive North Canterbury agriculture is likely to contaminate aquifers.’

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/north-canterbury/99535131/nitrates-in-christchurch-drinking-water-at-safe-but-increasing-levels-modelling-shows

  7. cleangreen 7
    12 December 2017 at 8:39 am

    Excellent post Ed;

    Mike Joy is our premier water scientist; – and is the one person the Labour Coalition must place him on their team of specialists to use to sort our worsening water quality crisis.
    Here are some facts to help quantify the benefits of using rail as one way to reduce our pollution of our water systems.

    An Ernst and Young report for the NZ Transport Agency in 2016 — The Value of Rail in New Zealand — put that value at $1.5 billion. The report was not made public until recently.

    A B-train (truck with two trailers) wears out the road 20,000 times more than a car, and we know that the local roading authorities are struggling to keep up with the maintenance on the road. I travel the Gisborne to Napier route often and am fed up with the constant wheel alignments necessary from the potholes and sunken bridges.

    Then there are the externalities — the consequences of an economic activity experienced by unrelated third parties: the social and environmental cost of increasing heavy trucks and reducing rail use.

    The Ministry of Transport has put the social cost of each road death at $4.5 million, and a crash involving serious injuries at $473,600.

    Living near a busy road increases the risk of premature death by 7 percent, increasing the risk of cancer, heart attack, stroke, dementia, childhood diabetes, asthma, allergies etc.

    A diesel truck pollutes up to 1000 times more than a car.

    One truck tyre sheds 10 times the amount of one car tyre.
    Each truck tyre sheds 0.21 g/km of tyre compound (butadiene styrene); that is 5.46 g/km for a 26-wheel vehicle.

    Road run-off accounts for 40-50 percent of urban metal contamination to aquatic ecosystems.

    It’s not a matter of being anti trucks, it’s about sharing the load. Even the Road Transport Forum chief executive Ken Shirley, as well as local transport operators, are saying they can’t cope with the increasing freight task and may have to turn work away.

    • Ed 7.1
      12 December 2017 at 8:50 am

      Did anyone go to this talk?
      Would be interested to hear about it.

      By the way, please notice how the Otago Daily Times frames Mike Joy as ‘outspoken.’
      This is how the corporate media frame a debate.

      ‘Outspoken scientist Dr Mike Joy will share his thoughts on the future of food at an open lecture in Dunedin today.
      Dr Joy, a senior lecturer in ecology and environmental science at Massey University is speaking in the St David Lecture Theatre from 5.30pm, sponsored by the Centre for Sustainability and Ag@Otago.

      Earlier this year, he received the Universities New Zealand inaugural Critic and Conscience of Society Award for drawing attention to water quality in New Zealand’s rivers, lakes and drinking water — and the impact of intensive agriculture.

      He intended looking at what he called New Zealand’s nitrogen and fossil fuel ‘‘addiction’’ and covering various topics including disruptions from the likes of artificial and plant-based milk and synthetic meat.’

      https://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/future-food-be-topic-joy-lecture

      ‘The inaugural Critic and Conscience of Society Award winner and environmental crusader Dr Mike Joy says Wanaka needs to reduce its cow numbers and put a stop to the intensification of the dairy industry if it is to save its waterways.
      Dr Joy said a Wanaka vet told him there used to be three cows in Wanaka and he knew them each by name, now there were upwards of 30,000 cows in the area.

      “That is the kind of change we’ve had, that is the reality of it, and a lot of Southland cows are being wintered here and they don’t really count in the statistics properly but their s… sure does.”

      Dr Joy said the cows were being wintered in Upper Clutha because of the drier climate but the soils around Wanaka were very porous, which allowed pathogens and contaminants to move quickly through the soil and into the waterways. The Massey University academic spoke in Wanaka this week at the invitation of the Lake Wanaka Trust, delivering a public lecture on “The Future of food; our deadly nitrogen and fossil fuel addiction”. In an interview, he said artificial nitrogen made from fossil fuels had allowed cow numbers to double in the past 20 years and quadrupled milk production, but the farmers were not making any more money and the nitrogen was ruining rivers and lowland lakes.’

      https://www.odt.co.nz/regions/wanaka/dairy-intensification-effects-questioned

      • greywarshark 7.1.1
        12 December 2017 at 9:50 am

        Mike Joy is ‘outspoken’ and stands out because so many academics are muzzled in some way.

        And we are not a modern literate society incorporating a high level of expertise and informed and advanced decision making and implementation. Preventing that is the simple message over the gateway ‘This is where the biggest bucks are made’. And so we keep following what we did before until the above proves incorrect. Mike Joy has to be outspoken because no-one wants to hear until the ‘big bucks’ premise proves on the financial schedules to be wrong.

        In an interview, he said artificial nitrogen made from fossil fuels had allowed cow numbers to double in the past 20 years and quadrupled milk production, but the farmers were not making any more money and the nitrogen was ruining rivers and lowland lakes.’

        My exemplar for being ignored and prevented from ethical action by the established organisation to the point of being killed is Semmelweis. He found by experiment that he could prevent deaths of new mothers, and drastically cut deaths in one area of the hospital. But he was not allowed to change a system that had always been followed. It ended with him being held in an asylum, and dying after a fight with a guard, probably fairly brutal. The establishment then, (and all establishments have the same tendencies), would go that far so as not to rock their personal boats.
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignaz_Semmelweis

  8. Rosemary McDonald 8
    12 December 2017 at 9:08 am

    Good morning, good folk of The Standard!

    I have a wee problem that the cybersavvy who frequent this space might be able to help me with.

    This document…. Joint ACC and Health
    Spinal Cord Impairment Initiative & Implementation Plan
    Situation Analysis Paper
    24th February 2013

    is no longer available on the interweb.

    A google search….https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=Joint+ACC+and+Health+Spinal+Cord+Impairment+Initiative+%26+Implementation+Plan+Situation+Analysis+Paper+24th+February+2013&cr=countryNZ&rlz=1C1OPRB_enNZ513NZ516&tbs=ctr:countryNZ&ei=heEuWsGrCcW20ASY64qwDw&start=0&sa=N&filter=0&biw=1280&bih=666

    ….fails to provide a link to this document but does reference where it has been mentioned. A couple of references link to The Standard…occasions where I have cited this document. I am pretty sure I would have included the hyperlink…but they are not there anymore.

    Neither the Mystery of Health or ACC websites have this document in their archives. I did message ‘Darryl’ the IT helpelf on the ACC website.

    This is the second time a document that I reference fairly regularly has disappeared from the interweb.

    I have the pdf file on my geriatric hard drive and I do backups fairly regularly and I have a hard copy…but it would be really, really useful to be able to link when I am referencing this very significant piece of work.

    It was yesterday that I last tried to link to this document in a quick email to this guy…http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/2018624936/legal-research-award-to-examine-extending-acc

    …because the above named document has an extremely useful section that compares ACC and MOH supports for those with spinal impairment.

    Thanks in advance for any help.

  9. Andre 9
    12 December 2017 at 9:34 am

    There’s just a wee bit of an enthusiasm gap between Dems and Repugs for new candidates wanting to run in 2018 …

    https://www.vox.com/2017/12/11/16748716/chart-democrats-2018-midterms-elections

  10. Carolyn_Nth 10
    12 December 2017 at 9:36 am

    So far the Ombudsman says that the 33 page of notes on coalition talks as mentioned by Winston Peters, does not need to be released.

    Newsroom reports it, but disagrees with the interim decision.

    Chief Ombudsman Peter Boshier has backed the Government’s refusal to release a 33-page coalition document, saying in a provisional ruling he is satisfied it has not played a role in policy decisions.
    …
    He said he would consider any comments on the provisional opinion before forming a final opinion. Newsroom has made further submissions to the Ombudsman, arguing for the document’s release.

    A spokeswoman for Ardern said she could not comment until Boshier’s final opinion was released.

    • Macro 10.1
      12 December 2017 at 3:29 pm

      Oh dear!!
      Nats and RW Trolls have been in agony over this! How could he rule such a thing??

      SO SAD!

  11. red-blooded 11
    12 December 2017 at 9:51 am

    Hi folks. Can anyone hep me out with a technical issue? I can’t find a way to embed links when I’m commenting. I use Google Chrome as my browser. The only advice I can find is out of date, referring to a “wrench” icon and a function that doesn’t appear in any obvious way for the newer icon – the stack of 3 vertical dots – that replaced it.

    Any advice gratefully received.

    • weka 11.1
      12 December 2017 at 10:01 am

      Have you tried putting the tags in manually? Do you see the Show Tags button at the bottom of the comment box next to Submit Comment?

      • Macro 11.1.1
        12 December 2017 at 3:36 pm

        There is no short cut for those of us who are not authors as far as I know.
        I do it manually as described here
        Once you get the hang of it, it’s not so hard.
        I use Safari Firefox and Chrome at different times as I feel the need and they are basically all the same from a commenting point of view – at least on mac OS

    • Bill 11.2
      12 December 2017 at 10:04 am

      I never knew there was a short and easy way to do it from Chrome. Unless I’m signed in (when I have access to some short-cuts) I’m reduced to the following from FAQ.

      https://thestandard.org.nz/faq/comment-formatting/#linking

    • Carolyn_Nth 11.3
      12 December 2017 at 10:05 am

      Type the words you want the link embedded in:

      This is an article about….

      Then around those words type this:

      [a href=”add_link_url”]This is an article about…[/a]

      But where I’ve put [ type

      As here:

      http://shell.cas.usf.edu/mccook/uwy/hyperlinks.html

      • red-blooded 11.3.1
        12 December 2017 at 10:47 am

        So, if I want to link to the Colin James article in the ODT today about politician of the year I do this?

        Can I just feed back to the site managers that this didn’t work when I followed the advice from TS (which said to use single quote marks), but did when I followed Carolyn_Nth’s advice and used double quote marks? Thanks C_N.

    • Rosemary McDonald 11.4
      12 December 2017 at 10:42 am

      red-blooded…I too have this problem here on TS.

      I try using the HTML Tags helpfully supplied…but no joy.

      I have no problems over on Public Address…and produce some tidy cooments and the odd post.

      I am using an old Compaq Pressario, running on Vista and also google chrome…although the header tells me otherwise….I suspect this is the cause of my problem.

      Having said that…I am not exactly technosavvy…

      I am still awestruck, occasionally, when stuff actually works.

  12. Morrissey 12
    12 December 2017 at 10:00 am

    The epitome of uselessness, or: Why
    nobody trusts or respects the Democrats

    mealy-mouthed (adj.) afraid to speak frankly or straightforwardly.

    Jim Mora has repeatedly asserted that this fool is “the greatest orator of our generation.” ….

  13. Muttonbird 13
    12 December 2017 at 10:06 am

    JA wearing her Labour Party hat at time of coalition document.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11957945

    Buuuuurrrrrn!

    • BM 13.1
      12 December 2017 at 10:13 am

      All seems rather dodgy, no wonder there’s no honeymoon and Nationals still well ahead of Labour.

      Ardern doing her best to sink the COL. and return Labour to Andrew Little levels of popularity.

      • weka 13.1.1
        12 December 2017 at 10:17 am

        “Nationals still well ahead of Labour.”

        Lol, we’ve had MMP for 25 years.

        JA is ahead of English in terms of preferred PM. Wtf are you on about?

        • BM 13.1.1.1
          12 December 2017 at 10:25 am

          You shouldn’t have the opposition party rising in support during the honeymoon period.

          Ardern has completely fucked it up, watch the polls take another hit when the sheeple realize they’re missing out on an extra grand next year.

          • weka 13.1.1.1.1
            12 December 2017 at 10:37 am

            “You shouldn’t have the opposition party rising in support during the honeymoon period.”

            why not?

            “Ardern has completely fucked it up, watch the polls take another hit when the sheeple realize they’re missing out on an extra grand next year.”

            Your fantasies aren’t reality BM. This just looks like wishful thinking on your part.

          • red-blooded 13.1.1.1.2
            12 December 2017 at 10:57 am

            BM, the Nat’s have increased their party preference by 3%, Labour by 6% (comparing election outcome to the latest CB). Not a huge bounce, but certainly nothing to be dejected about.

      • marty mars 13.1.2
        12 December 2017 at 10:20 am

        Mate that is a massive win for labour and a downtrow for the gnats lol god the gnats are a rabble

      • Carolyn_Nth 13.1.3
        12 December 2017 at 11:30 am

        Ah, the old “hats” trick – as pioneered by dear ex-leader JPK.

    • Ad 13.2
      12 December 2017 at 10:20 am

      With the Ombudsman backing the Prime Minister, all those crap stories about secrecy vanish … like tears in the rain.

      Boshier was a good judge, and was quite clear in the RNZ interview last week that he is nobody’s fool. Both the Prime Minister and Deputy Prime Minister were right.

      • BM 13.2.1
        12 December 2017 at 10:28 am

        Do you think Peters was having a senior moment when he said

        “a document of precision in various areas of policy commitment and development.
        These are directives to ministers with accountability and media strategies to ensure that the coalition works

        • red-blooded 13.2.1.1
          12 December 2017 at 11:03 am

          I think he was misspeaking, yes. Look at the whole statement, he says the goal is to make sure the coalition works – it’s a working document, setting out issues for the two parties to develop and work on. Put another way, it’s notes from a developing discussion, held over a period of time. That’s quite different from a coalition agreement or a formal policy document (which records decisions made and agreements arrived at).

        • dv 13.2.1.2
          12 December 2017 at 11:27 am

          BM can you link to the coalition discussion doc from the natz and their support party(s).

      • alwyn 13.2.2
        12 December 2017 at 2:12 pm

        I await with interest any comments from people who complained about John Key using the line that he did some things as Leader of the National Party rather than as PM.
        Now that Jacinda Ardern has used the same defence I can only assume that they will.
        1) Apologise to Mr Key
        or
        2) Complain about Ms Ardern’s actions.
        Otherwise the people concerned will be shown up as hypocrites.
        I wonder who will be first?

        • McFlock 13.2.2.1
          12 December 2017 at 3:45 pm

          Some of the ctiticism of Key and “hats” was that his “hats” defense against OIA some OIA requests indicated that government staffers employed by Ministerial Services were being used for party work. A bit of a no-no, if indeed that was the hat he was wearing while texting the dirty politics crew.

          This does not seem to have been the case at all in the recent coalition negotiations.

          • alwyn 13.2.2.1.1
            12 December 2017 at 5:14 pm

            Really?
            Then why did the chief Ombudsman end up saying, about the material you are referring to, that
            “On this point the Ombudsmen have accepted the view of the Prime Minister’s Office with Chief Ombudsman Peter Boshier’s view that the threshold for him to check the communications in question has not been met.”
            In other words he had exactly the same opinion then as now
            Felix Marwick didn’t take it at all kindly. He claimed then that obviously Key had something to hide.
            “The other thing you can deduce from a three year battle over access to correspondence is that the most senior politician in the land probably had something to hide. ”
            I expect him to say that Ardern must have something to hide also.
            Either that or apologise to Key and I don’t think he will do that.
            http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/opinion/felix-marwick-no-sunlight-no-disinfectant-political-machinations-remain-behind-the-veil/

            Should you be apologising to Mr Key or did you not complain about the episode that now seems to get you excited?

            • In Vino 13.2.2.1.1.1
              12 December 2017 at 8:13 pm

              Why? When did Key ever get the Ombudsman’s clearance for his prevarications, one of which Ardern has cunningly mimicked in getting formal exoneration?
              (And by the way, if you can quote such a case, you open yourself up to the “But National did it too!” argument, a tactic hugely overused and abused by the previous Govt who screamed ‘Labour did it too!’ no matter how incongruous the events had been.)

            • McFlock 13.2.2.1.1.2
              12 December 2017 at 9:50 pm

              If you can make a reasonable argument that notes on coalition agreements made before either party leader became prime minister were in fact noted as part of the role of Prime Minister, feel free.

              Maybe the same argument could be made that Ardern’s essays for school cert were written in her capacity of being Prime Minister, if that’s how job descriptions take effect in the parallel toryverse you are communicating from.

              As for ministerial services employees acting as partisan activists – in that case someone’s fucked up somewhere and should have been kicked to the kerb. Didn’t a MS employee find other employment shortly after the book was published?

  14. Sabine 14
    12 December 2017 at 10:15 am

    one fruit of the rotten tree that we dare not talk about

    spoils of war
    or maybe the banality of accepted rape to assuage men who are driven by bloodlust and ‘maybe watched some of theirs die’ and now must find a relieve valve or other some assorted bullshit so that we don’t need to be honest as to what is done to women in war

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/16/world/asia/myanmar-rohingya-rapes.html

    full report here https://apnews.com/5e4a1351468f4755a6f861e39ec782c9

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/27/world/middleeast/isis-yazidi-women-rape-iraq-mosul-slavery.html

    http://edition.cnn.com/2017/10/19/africa/denis-mukwege-congo-doctor-rape/index.html

    just three examples from this year. This is how common, how accepted, how permitted rape is in order to subjugate, dominate, and defeat a people/race/religion etc etc.
    And this is what rape is in general. No waxing lyrically about how it must be a psychosis, a mental illness, a disease, a sin from satan, and not simply the fact that some will use it as a tool to subjugate others into obedience until they cower in fear and do as they are told to.

  15. Pat 15
    12 December 2017 at 10:19 am

    At last some realistic discussion around (one) implication of CC…let us hope Newsroom’s article will start widespread coverage of an effect that may force some public demand for reducing carbon emissions.

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2017/12/11/67374/drowning-dreams-billions-at-stake-as-govt-mulls-sea-level-rules

  16. Morrissey 16
    12 December 2017 at 10:30 am

    Horrible rich pricks think they can do anything and get away with it.

    The world watches in fascinated horror every day as the zomboid version of Richie Rich creates havoc in the White House and beyond.

    But stupid rich men out of control is not a phenomenon limited to that beleaguered republic. Yesterday New Zealanders became aware of the massive sense of entitlement by one unfeasibly wealthy git who wants to be able to fly his helicopter AT ANY TIME in a city neighbourhood. He’s not some surgeon on call, or anything useful like that; he wants to fly himself and his rich “friends” to golf games, not drive or bus there like the rest of us oiks.

    Ten years ago, another rich prick with a similar sub-zero level of awareness walked around Porirua, attempting to curry favour with the locals. That was an unwise move on his part….

    • Rosemary McDonald 16.1
      12 December 2017 at 10:47 am

      That worker…what a hero.

      I love the gesticulations.

      A pity that he did not accidentally hit the bottom of that coffee cup…

      • Roflcopter 16.1.1
        12 December 2017 at 2:37 pm

        He’s been a good friend of mine for going on 30 years… no matter how pissed off he would have been with JK/Nats, he’s respectful enough to not stoop to doing stupid stuff like that.

        If we could all have discussions in that manner, we’d all be in a much better place.

        * i’m as guilty as anyone sometimes, at doing stupid stuff 🙂

      • Morrissey 16.3.1
        12 December 2017 at 3:13 pm

        Here’s some more cool tough behaviour from the Antipodes, this time in the Auckland Public Library….

  17. Rosemary McDonald 17
    12 December 2017 at 10:56 am

    And more from the horrible pricks file…this…http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11957908

    “A man who saw red when he discovered a text between a friend and his wife, declaring their undying love for each other, has been discharged without conviction on charges of assaulting the man, the defendant’s wife, and one of his children in Queenstown this year.

    In the Queenstown District Court yesterday Judge John Brandts-Giesen said it was a “nasty assault”, but had to be seen in context.

    “Really, this is a situation that does your wife no credit and does the [male] no
    credit.”

    Judge Brandts-Giesen said the man assaulted the friend and a struggle ensued. When the defendant’s daughter tried to separate the pair, the defendant grabbed her by the throat, pushed her down and held her there.

    When the defendant’s wife intervened, he kicked her in the ribs, causing her to fall backwards.

    The male complainant suffered scratches, and the defendant’s daughter’s neck was bruised.

    Judge Brandts-Giesen said the 58-year-old, who did not recollect hurting his wife and daughter, had never been before the court.

    “There would be many people who would have done exactly what you did, even though it may be against the law to do so.

    “I consider that the consequences of a conviction are out of all proportion to what happened on this occasion.””

    Well…justice is served, I guess.

    • Sabine 17.1
      12 December 2017 at 11:13 am

      file this under

      Boys will be boys.

      • Rosemary McDonald 17.1.1
        12 December 2017 at 11:22 am

        Boys will be boys…indeed.

        This boy is 58 years old…and unless he’s taking supplements, he can hardly blame testosterone overload.

        SSDD.

        Same as it ever was…

        • Sabine 17.1.1.1
          12 December 2017 at 11:25 am

          the old adage,

          if it bleeds its a women no matter the age – maybe a disclaimer is added ‘young women’ cause responsibility for women and their actions starts when they can get pregnant but men? Oh my, so many excuses…….boys will be boys, or as in this particular case a ‘crime of passion’

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_of_passion

          also crime of passion does not appear to be a mitigating circumstance for women. 🙂

          • Rosemary McDonald 17.1.1.1.1
            13 December 2017 at 12:21 pm

            Looky looky…

            http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11958625

            “Otago Lakes Central Area Commander Inspector Olaf Jensen could not comment specifically on the case.

            However, he confirmed that police were looking closely at the sentencing decision.

            “We are reviewing the decision, but at this stage aren’t in a position to comment further,” he said.

            Auckland barrister and spokeswoman for the Auckland Coalition for the Safety of Women and Children Catriona MacLennan said called for Judge Brandts-Giesen to step down from his role.

            “”It is inappropriate for Judge Brandts-Giesen to continue sitting on the bench,” she told the Herald.

            “His reported comments and the sentence imposed display a complete lack of understanding of domestic violence.

            “He victim blames and minimises assaults on three people.””

    • Morrissey 17.2
      12 December 2017 at 2:33 pm

      Give the bloke a sports radio chat show.

  18. Ed 18
    12 December 2017 at 12:37 pm

    Meat tax ‘inevitable’ to beat climate and health crises, says report

    ‘“Sin taxes” on meat to reduce its huge impact on climate change and human health look inevitable, according to analysts for investors managing more than $4tn of assets.
    The global livestock industry causes 15% of all global greenhouse gas emissions and meat consumption is rising around the world, but dangerous climate change cannot be avoided unless this is radically curbed. Furthermore, many people already eat far too much meat, seriously damaging their health and incurring huge costs. Livestock also drive other problems, such as water pollution and antibiotic resistance.
    A new analysis from the investor network Farm Animal Investment Risk and Return (Fairr) Initiative argues that meat is therefore now following the same path as tobacco, carbon emissions and sugar towards a sin tax, a levy on harmful products to cut consumption. Meat taxes have already been discussed in parliaments in Germany, Denmark and Sweden, the analysis points out, and China’s government has cut its recommended maximum meat consumption by 45% in 2016.
    “If policymakers are to cover the true cost of human epidemics like obesity, diabetes and cancer, and livestock epidemics like avian flu, while also tackling the twin challenges of climate change and antibiotic resistance, then a shift from subsidisation to taxation of the meat industry looks inevitable,” said Jeremy Coller, the founder of Fairr and the chief investment officer at the private equity firm Coller Capital. “Far-sighted investors should plan ahead for this day.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/dec/11/meat-tax-inevitable-to-beat-climate-and-health-crises-says-report?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Maybe as part of our education, we should be made aware of this.
    Then I would imagine meat eating would rapidly decline.

    “If slaughterhouses had glass walls, everyone would be a vegetarian.”

  19. joe90 19
    12 December 2017 at 12:46 pm

    There is no bottom.

    Sarah Huckabee Sanders addresses allegations of sexual conduct against President Trump:"The American people knew this and voted for the president, and we feel like we're ready to move forward" pic.twitter.com/Oj7NHOcV9o— NBC Politics (@NBCPolitics) December 11, 2017

    https://www.mediaite.com/online/roy-moore-campaign-decides-its-a-good-idea-to-have-a-12-year-old-girl-interview-him/

  20. Ad 20
    12 December 2017 at 1:53 pm

    The upcoming Alabama Senate election is going to be one almighty media test:

    https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-the-hell-is-happening-with-these-alabama-polls/

    Either the Dems and the media and the entire feminist enterprise against sexual harrassment was beaten just as Hillary Clinton was (if the Dems lose), …

    …Or…

    … the Dems win and a great turning point has been reached which vindicates the media classes hunting sexual predators and feminism stands to fight another day in America, and Breitbart and the rest of patriarchy is sorely wounded.

    A fair bit to play for.

  21. Ed 21
    12 December 2017 at 2:10 pm

    New Zealand is a horrible place to live for many.

    ‘Christmas a step too far’ for struggling families says Auckland City Mission as hundreds line up outside

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11958065

    • Red 21.1
      12 December 2017 at 3:32 pm

      [deleted/on permanent ban]

      • Ed 21.1.1
        12 December 2017 at 4:05 pm

        Very very dull.
        Redneck would be a better title.

        • Red 21.1.1.1
          12 December 2017 at 5:07 pm

          [deleted/on permanent ban]

          • One Anonymous Bloke 21.1.1.1.1
            12 December 2017 at 5:38 pm

            Statistics must be wrong because your anecdote.

            No wonder you have to set up “think” tanks: peer review isn’t your strong point.

        • Morrissey 21.1.1.2
          12 December 2017 at 5:25 pm

          No, “redneck” would NOT be a better title for a bigot.

          “Redneck” is the contemptuous term for working people used by Democratic Party mandarins in the 1970s to condemn the working people who voted for Nixon. It’s been thoughtlessly recycled over the years, and was enthusiastically used by Clintonistas and Hopey-Changey cultists to besmirch white working people who they believed should vote for them by divine right.

          Think about who the most bigoted, racist, outrageous hatemongers in this country are: Don Brash, Jamie “Lock Up His Sisters” Whyte, Mike Hosking, Leighton Smith, Cameron “Whalefat” Slater, John Ansell, Garth “The Knife” McVicar. Only the last-named qualifies as a redneck, as he has actually done some physical work in his life.

          My grandfathers and my uncles all worked hard on farms and in factories, and they often got sunburned, including on their necks. They were and are rednecks, just like the hardworking men and women in the United States are. But I’ve never, ever heard any of them utter the brutal and heartless and ignorant rhetoric that we are inflicted with every day from comfortable, sedentary, white-collared, white-necked people like Brash and co.

          They are not rednecks, they are bigots.

          • Red 21.1.1.2.1
            12 December 2017 at 5:27 pm

            [deleted/on permanent ban]

          • One Anonymous Bloke 21.1.1.2.2
            12 December 2017 at 5:41 pm

            Next, you’ll be defending WASPs because they aren’t striped.

            Yes: by definition, labels are discriminatory.

            • Morrissey 21.1.1.2.2.1
              12 December 2017 at 5:45 pm

              Indeed, it was and is mostly contemptuous, wealthy, entitled WASPs in the Democratic Party who use such terms as “rednecks” and “deplorables”.

          • Sabine 21.1.1.2.3
            12 December 2017 at 6:03 pm

            Just you because why not

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redneck

            i especially like the usage here 🙂

            “Historical Scottish Covenanter usage
            In Scotland in the 1640s, the Covenanters rejected rule by bishops, often signing manifestos using their own blood. Some wore red cloth around their neck to signify their position, and were called rednecks by the Scottish ruling class to denote that they were the rebels in what came to be known as The Bishop’s War that preceded the rise of Cromwell.[25][26] Eventually, the term began to mean simply “Presbyterian”, especially in communities along the Scottish border. Because of the large number of Scottish immigrants in the pre-revolutionary American South, some historians have suggested that this may be the origin of the term in the United States.[27]
            Dictionaries document the earliest American citation of the term’s use for Presbyterians in 1830, as “a name bestowed upon the Presbyterians of Fayetteville [North Carolina]”.[14][26]
            Roman Catholics
            In Northern England in the 19th and 20th centuries, Roman Catholics were also known as rednecks.[28]
            South Africa
            The exact Afrikaans equivalent, rooinek, is used as a disparaging term for English people and South Africans of English descent, in reference to their supposed naïveté as later arrivals in the region in failing to protect themselves from the sun.[29]”

            I guess i am a redneck, being roman catholic and all 🙂

            • Carolyn_Nth 21.1.1.2.3.1
              12 December 2017 at 6:14 pm

              How interesting. Didn’t know the Scottish version before.

              I’ve never liked the term redneck, and tend not to use it.

              But, having had a bit of a Presbyterian upbringing, I guess I’m a redneck, too.

          • Ed 21.1.1.2.4
            12 December 2017 at 6:30 pm

            Never knew the source.
            Thank you, Morrissey

  23. joe90 23
    12 December 2017 at 2:24 pm

    My moneys on tulips.

    Bitcoin is in the “mania” phase, with some people even borrowing money to get in on the action, securities regulator Joseph Borg told CNBC on Monday.

    “We’ve seen mortgages being taken out to buy bitcoin. … People do credit cards, equity lines,” said Borg, president of the North American Securities Administrators Association, a voluntary organization devoted to investor protection. Borg is also director of the Alabama Securities Commission.

    https://www.cnbc.com/2017/12/11/people-are-taking-out-mortgages-to-buy-bitcoin-says-joseph-borg.html?

  24. Ed 24
    12 December 2017 at 4:49 pm

    As a commentator has since written on facebook, it is bad enough they take our water now they flout the laws of the land, the next step they taking our country completely from us

    ‘It’s just so dangerous’: Squalid conditions reported at water bottling plant.

    ‘One of the plants, owned by China-based Cloud Ocean Water, is being built in what used to be the Kaputone Wool Scour, which closed in 2015.

    The company is associated with the Ling Hai Group, which has winery interests in New Zealand and links to a Chinese sugar giant.

    Cloud Ocean Water director Feng Liang said he was “unable to comment” on the investigations. When asked to respond to specific allegations about the alleged workplace practices, he again declined to comment.

    The site’s resource consent allows it to take 4.3 million litres a day, the equivalent daily usage of around 12,000 people.

    Some 46 consecutive dry days in Christchurch have beaten a record set in 1954. The city council has urged residents to conserve water, recommending residents do not water their lawns.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/99726885/its-just-so-dangerous-squalid-conditions-reported-at-water-bottling-plant

    Some detail on the companies

    Cloud Ocean Water Limited was registered on 21 Mar 2017 and issued an NZBN of 9429046014665. The registered LTD company has been run by 2 directors: Feng Liang – an active director whose contract began on 21 Mar 2017,
    Zongren Ling – an active director whose contract began on 21 Mar 2017.

    A total of 10000 shares are allotted to 2 groups (2 shareholders in total). As far as the first group is concerned, 2300 shares are held by 1 entity, namely:
    Hairong Ling (an individual) located at Lin Yi.
    The second group consists of 1 shareholder, holds 77% shares (exactly 7700 shares) and includes Ling Hai Group Limited. Cloud Ocean Water Limited is categorised as “Mineral water manufacturing” (business classification C121140).

    http://www.bizdb.co.nz/company/9429046014665/

    Feng Liang is also a director of Ling Hai Hotel Limited
    http://www.bizdb.co.nz/company/9429042545132/

  26. OnceWasTim 26
    12 December 2017 at 5:40 pm

    The ‘Truckometer’
    (RNZ Bizzniss News at 17:30 on Checkpoint)

    Sounds like something ANZ’s former? Chief ‘economist’ (Someone Buggery) dreamed up.
    I wonder if it includes the trucking ‘fundamentals’ going forward. Or merely traffic volumes without the full range of costs.

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