Praying for Grace

Written By: - Date published: 9:10 am, December 11th, 2018 - 153 comments
Categories: crime, human rights, Social issues - Tags: , ,

A series of public vigils will be held this week for murdered tourist Grace Millane.

There’s a lot that can be said about this terrible crime, which has struck a sombre chord here in Aotearoa and around the world.

Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern spoke for the nation when she talked of our country’s shame at Grace Millane’s death.

However, it should be remembered that tourists are relatively safe in NZ. It’s Kiwi women and children that are most likely to be hurt, bullied and killed here through no fault of their own.

The recent law change to make strangulation a separate crime is a good step. Throttling a partner is a well known pre-cursor to worse crimes. Acknowledging that fact is a good step toward finally ending the idea that ‘it’s just a domestic’.

Men, we have so much to do. We can’t change history, however we can work with our mates and with our boys to make Aotearoa safer day by day.

If we men don’t make the change, who will?

 

 

Auckland

A candlelight vigil is planned for Wednesday at Auckland CBD’s Federal St. Starting at 7pm, the event is being led by Alison Mau and domestic violence victims’ support group The Aunties.

Also in Auckland on Wednesday, the White Ribbon group will hold a vigil at St Patrick’s Square, also on Federal St, at 6pm.

Wellington

Wellington’s vigil is planned for 7.30pm, Wednesday in Civic Square.

Nelson 

Another group plans to take to the streets on Wednesday at 7pm, at 1903 Square on the corner of Trafalgar and Selwyn Place, Nelson. Attendees are asked to bring their own candles and tea lights.

Christchurch

7PM, Weds, in Cathedral Square

Dunedin 

Otago’s vigil is 7pm on Wednesday in the Octagon, in central Dunedin.

Queenstown

A vigil is planned for tonight at 7pm, in front of The Boatshed Cafe.

Mount Maunganui

A sunset vigil is set to be held at 8pm on Saturday on the beach by the surf club at Mount Maunganui.

 

153 comments on “Praying for Grace”

  1. Morrissey 1

    It’s true that this awful crime has brought out the best in many Kiwis. However, there are nasty opportunists who are taking advantage of this young woman’s murder to push their own disgusting agendas. One of them was on Newshub’s pisspoor a.m. show this morning….

    Open Mike 10/12/2018

  2. Anne 2

    It’s not just about name suppression. This woman makes some good points about the treatment of victims of crime:

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2018/12/victims-advocate-slams-grace-millane-case-name-suppression.html

    Yes, it’s the Duncan Garner show but even Dunc gets it right sometimes.

    • Morrissey 2.1

      Anne, you should be ashamed of yourself.

      [Mate, you should apologise. This is a post primarily about the oppression and suppression of women in NZ by men and here you are, a man, trying to make a woman feel ashamed. TRP]

      • Sabine 2.1.1

        why?

      • Anne 2.1.2

        Not at all Morrissey. I’m not referring to the Richardson fellow’s comments or indeed Garner’s garnishing, but this woman makes good points about the way victims of crime often end up being re-victimised as a result of the present justice system. Many of us who have been victims will tell you as much. She also makes a point of reminding viewers of the people who have not seen justice after years of waiting and there are countless of people in that category.

        It is always good to be reminded of the above no matter who it is doing the reminding.

      • Anne 2.1.3

        I didn’t take it that way TRP.

        • te reo putake 2.1.3.1

          Fair enough, Anne. I assume Moz was trying to make a point about listening to Garner’s show, but it could have been phrased way better.

          • Morrissey 2.1.3.1.1

            No, I wasn’t criticizing Anne for her listening to Garner’s joke of a show. Hell, I’m a critic, not a censor. What I criticized her for was her endorsing of “this woman” who she claimed made “some good points about the treatment of victims of crime.”

            Anne still seems oblivious of the fact that “this woman”—Ruth Money—was a protégé of the odious Garth the Knife McSticker, possibly the most vicious and cynical person in the country.

            [Weak. Anne did not endorse Ruth Money, she endorsed some of the comments Ruth made. You then go on to make a belittling comment about another woman, who, as part of her job, is merely introducing Ruth Money using the job title her organisation gives to her role. Again, weak. In future, you need to put the same level of work into your comments as you demand of those you claim to critique or there may be unpleasant consequences. Not banned this time, but only because Anne didn’t take offence. TRP]

      • Tuppence Shrewsbury 2.1.4

        Don’t mate him TRP. The soft mateship approach is half the problem with Kiwi males thinking it ok to make women ashamed. It’s soft peddling to Morrisey’s obvious anger issues.

        • Morrissey 2.1.4.1

          “Anger issues”? I think the concept you’re struggling to verbalise is “disgust.” I’m disgusted at the fact that anyone, even a fourth-rate autocue reader like Ingrid Hipkiss, would be so crass as to label Ruth Money a “victim’s advocate.”

          • In Vino 2.1.4.1.1

            But Morrissey, you know full well that McVicor’s lot present themselves in exactly those terms: more care for the victims of crime, and to hell with the perpetrators. I agree with your outrage, but I am surprised that you revile Ingrid so heavily for naively presenting Ruth as Ruth presents herself.
            Unfortunately, the media like to push this angle, because few of us see through it.
            Your vituperative reaction will alienate those who do not already understand where you are coming from.

            • Morrissey 2.1.4.1.1.1

              The media were complicit in the Sensible Sentencing Trust’s jihad against that boy and his family. People like Ingrid Hipkiss thoughtlessly or indifferently reading out nonsense like that—-Ruth Money a “victim’s advocate”, for pity’s sake—-are integrally tied up with this vicious and deceitful messaging.

              I didn’t “revile” Ingrid Hipkiss, I expressed my frustration and disappointment at her failing to act as a real journalist would act. I realize that when she’s on that crappy show, with those mean spirited, even stupid, colleagues, that she’s in a difficult situation. But to not even demur at reading such nonsense, to not even raise a quizzical eyebrow?

              On the other hand, I do indeed revile Ruth Money and her disgusting mentor.

              • Moz, for someone who is obsessed with the media, you seem surprisingly ill informed about how it works. Hipkiss, when reading the news or introducing guests reads what other people write. Her job has no editorial component. Your beef is with the writers, editors and producers of the news shows.

                And given that there is no substance to your attack on Hipkiss, logically or critically, I, for one, am starting to wonder what your real problem is.

                Is it that hard to differentiate between message and medium?

  3. DJ Ward 3

    Society raises the child to become that adult that does these acts. Mostly mothers doing the raising apparently.

    Society develops the male that acts in contempt of basic morals.

    Society fails the male when they seek help, just as Livingstone and Clayton were failed by the medical profession.

    There is also a small group that is just bad. This could be the 1in 2.2 million male. Where no discernible seconds to disaster events exist. That is the disorder of the individual not a man thing. I wasn’t involved so don’t pass blame to me or other men, because we don’t do these horrific acts or condone it.

    I’m trying to point out cause to men’s behaviour, but apparently doing that is wrong. See first sentence.

    Who will?

    The balls not in men’s court for us to do anything.

    Ring up the Minister For Men for her opinion as to how we stop these events.

    Men are silent. I wait for the dozens of Stuff, bad men articles, lets persecute men more demands, the we need more funding pleas.

    • solkta 3.1

      I’m trying to point out cause to men’s behaviour

      by blaming women for the behaviour of men.

      • DJ Ward 3.1.1

        Women blame everything that happens to them on men.

        Bit of gynocentrism there solka.

        • mpledger 3.1.1.1

          There is a difference between 1) women blaming men for being hit by men and 2) men blaming women because men hit women.

        • McFlock 3.1.1.2

          Women blame everything that is done to them by men on men.

          Fixed it for you

          • DJ Ward 3.1.1.2.1

            Bastards deserve it too, how dare they not wear a condom when they get lied to about contraception. About time these useless men took responsibility for other peoples actions. Fuck it, stupid looser men are complaining now that it was bullshit all along, it wasn’t even his kid. Haha, he got upset, a little angry, arrest him, you know he’s just made bad.

            Now once we change property laws so we get everything, after we have destroyed his life as well, as a reward for our women’s suffering at the hands of the patriarchy, we can expect profound change. Men will finally be fixed after endless women’s refuge indoctrination programmes, 23 hour lockup prison time and systemic homelessness. Lets bullshit the death certificates when they suicide on mass as well, haha big tick miss Ford. Fuckwits, don’t men know all women are helpless princesses that can do no wrong.

            Whatever you do ladies don’t let people talk about cause. Only talk about how to punish men, how men are naturally all born bad. The last thing we would want to happen is exposing reality and the Matriarchy.

            • Molly 3.1.1.2.1.1

              This comment only warrants a response to note how destructive it is. For men and women.

              You have people willing to engage with you on this platform. Myself included. But I don’t really think such vituperative comments about women (and men) should be allowed to be posted without challenge.

              Men require and need champions that don’t encourage them to solely blame external factors for all life’s discord. They need role models who are able to self-examine with clarity, and build healthy communication with the other males, and people in their lives.

              What is apparent from your comment is that you are no champion for men.

  4. joe90 4

    Throttling a partner is a well known pre-cursor to worse crimes.

    I lived down the road from and worked with this character when he was a youngster.
    He was a top Collegiate student from an outwardly decent home; his old man was a screw and his mother was a tiny, quiet, wisp of a woman.

    But in hindsight, the tiny, quiet, wisp of a woman was most likely absolutely terrified of the men in her house. Fuckers.

    https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/sunday-feature-kiwi-murdered-girlfriend-in-uk-now-nz-jail-after-new-assaults-v1

  5. Observer Tokoroa 5

    Male traitors

    The vast unrestrained violence of Kiwi men is now known. Around the world.

    Unfortunately it is a Cowardly violence. A Shameful violence. A pathetic kiwi gender.

    Pakeha supply Alcohol by the massive tonnage to the underage males. Gross drugs by the bucket load too. Gangs (another useless gender of NZ males) distribute everything that devastates the weakling kiwi males.

    Prison is a Joke in New Zealand.

    The Victim and the Victim’s Family suffer. While the Criminal gets an easy ride through ” Don’t touch me” daily life. Not a days hardship. Not a day’s work! Happy Happy Crim man. Oh No. Don’t touch him. No Punishment for him. Just punish the Victim eh Mate.

    And that is called Justice. NZ Justice is the bashing up of New Zealand Women – via endless Rape and cowardly Murder.

    Poor Aotearoa . Let’s see if we can get some decent Males from the wonderful Mothers and Fathers of New Zealand. From now on.

    • joe90 5.1

      Prison is a Joke in New Zealand

      .

      Have you ever been to a prison?

      • Marcus Morris 5.1.1

        An excellent question Joe90. An experience that the “Lock em up and throw away the key” brigade would or could gain a great deal from.

      • Observer Tokoroa 5.1.2

        Hi Joe

        I wish you well – but I prefer to mix with hard working men.

        Are you sobbing and whinging again ? Most of our crims go back to prisons again and again. Because it is such a relaxed place. Plenty of Kai. And sex. In Prison. Eh

        • joe90 5.1.2.1

          Actually, I provided HV/LV cable services to corrections for several years.

          But anyhoo, other than your bean flicking prison fantasies, you haven’t a fucking clue, have you?

    • Siobhan 5.2

      “The vast unrestrained violence of Kiwi men is now known. Around the world”

      If you average it out, In the UK, one woman is murdered every 2.6 days by a man. It’s not just a Kiwi issue. It’s a violent planet. Who knows, maybe the whole world suffers from intergenerational dysfunction caused by endless wars and disenfranchisement.

      Women being murdered by men is such a common thing. As are UK citizens being murdered abroad, even the Daily Mail has pushed this story well to the bottom of the page today.

      This collective national guilt when a tourist is killed is a peculiarly NZ trait. Its quite endearing really, though its a shame we don’t extend such unrestrained and unqualified sympathy to all victims of violence, men and women, within our borders.

    • Draco T Bastard 5.3

      The vast unrestrained violence of Kiwi men is now known. Around the world.

      What a load of bollocks.

      NZ is still safer than pretty much anywhere else in the world.

      You’re still talking shit.

    • Liberal Realist 5.4

      Observer Tokoroa

      How about just ‘Traitors’? Shouldn’t all that commit violence be condemned regardless of gender?

      Violence can and is perpetrated both genders – an article that references the Dunedin longitudinal study [link below] indicates domestic violence isn’t just a male problem. Men are still the majority, but the problem isn’t (according to the study) as one sided as the current narrative suggests.

      Domestic violence is a societal problem that we all must contribute to fixing. Focussing solely on male aggressor, female victim ignores the reality that a significant number of women are also violent and contribute to the substantial ongoing problem of domestic violence.

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/timaru-herald/news/81025573/domestic-violence-study-presents-challenging-picture?fbclid=IwAR38NJi46JfIs4uG1pspFjDkS4E1EKIDndkQZx_e-lvwcckcGDZhrECU6ek

  6. SaveNZ 6

    Apparently the alleged murderer was based in OZ and came to NZ to ‘open a restaurant’ or that is what he told his flatmates who were so creeped out by him they asked him to leave after 2 weeks. Will not be surprised if he is part of the 100% pure criminal drive of people coming to NZ to live, study, “invest” in a service business aka restaurant or work, no questions asked.

    • Anne 6.1

      I think you will find the alleged murderer is a Kiwi who moved to Australia a couple of years ago. His mother now lives there.

      • mike 6.1.1

        for that girl to go through south America no problem then arrive in NZ and get murdered just inst right we market this country as safe these young visitors should be told told the truth not to let there guard down we owe them that nobody should leave this country in a coffin .

  7. Sabine 7

    You ask?

    “If we men don’t make the change, who will?”

    No one. No one will make the change. Absolutely no one.

    You just have to read the comments on this thread to understand that there is not enough will in many men to give up their right to blame women for their murders their rapes their destruction.

    I did came across this today in regards to domestic violence, and i would put this murder in that category, cause the intend is to keep women in their place, a place assigned by a male dominated culture of course.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/investigations/domestic-violence-murders/?utm_term=.86abb7262c44

    so yeah, women in NZ again will have reinforced that they are not save in their country, in their town, in their green spaces. But then the majority of us women know that already, and we have been saying that for hte longest of times. But then men will pull a sad about the mean women and we discuss something else that matters more then a few dead women here and there.

  8. Hi all. Just a reminder that the accused person has name suppression for the time being, so please don’t use his name or point to where his name can be found. Thanks.

  9. Observer Tokoroa 9

    Hi Ross

    You said of the Murderer: “He is entitled to a fair trial”

    What is his Victim entitled to Ross ?

    • DJ Ward 9.1

      That we act with integrity and ensure that the accused is fairly tried and punished according to the law if guilty. That we learn from what happened.

      We act on her behalf, and is entitled that we act with integrity.

    • Ross 9.2

      The victim is entitled to justice although that can mean different things to different people.

    • In Vino 9.3

      Well, OT, suppose you and a Lynch Mob gave the justice you think the bastard deserves, then later we find out that it wasn’t so simple, and that it was actually somebody else who did it.
      How angry and righteous would you feel then?
      It has happened before. Let the law run its correct course.

    • Morrissey 9.4

      People like you pretend to be speaking for victims. You’re not.

      Are you in the Sensible Sentencing Trust, by chance?

    • Liberal Realist 9.5

      Observer Tokoroa

      Not familiar with ‘innocent until proven guilty’?
      It’s the idiots that have shared the accused name on social media etc. that could be putting justice at risk for the victim.

  10. ankerawshark 10

    His victim is entitled to people not jeopardizing a “fair trial” which may mean her family don’t get justice. If the defence can argue that the person hasn’t had a fair trial for whatever reason, that may effect the outcome.

    I don’t want to see anything getting in the way of this man being held accountable.

    And in any case why do people feel they need to know who this person is??????? It will come out eventually.

    • Ross 10.1

      I agree. The vast majority of us presumably do not know the accused so releasing his name will count for little. But you are right. When supression lapses it is likely to become known.

  11. Grumpy 11

    As if to underline this post
    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12174820

    New Zealand has a huge problem with male violence towards women. This seems to have little to do with who is in power or what the legal consequences are.
    Murder is also the most visible and news worthy tip of the domestic violence iceberg. Name calling and slogans are not going to improve things and to me, the sad thing is that I have no idea what will.

    • Rosalie 11.1

      After 30 years of ‘violence intervention work’ in NZ, here are some of the cultural factors that are highly likely to make a difference: men and emotions – male culture has emphasised ‘hard’ as an essential ‘survival’ characteristic and admirable behaviour. Vulnerable feelings such as sad, lonely, helpless, confused etc are therefore repressed. In the absence of cultural permission for men to express the full range of human emotions the full charge goes into the permitted feelings – anger and lust. This culture is changing amongst men younger than 40; men and behaviour – aggression and disregarding the personal boundaries of others has been accepted as inevitable with the ‘boys will be boys’ custom. This acceptance can be changed. It takes work – personal work (how individuals manage their thoughts and feelings), cultural work (the messages that get promoted throughout media, within sporting clubs etc), and educational work (providing education about emotions and respectful relationships in schools. If the parent generations don’t have these relationship skills they will not be instilled into the children.

      • mike 11.1.1

        i dont think its a male thing at all . male or female ignorant violent individuals just couldn’t careless about anyone else except themselves

        • te reo putake 11.1.1.1

          The Police say yeah, nah:

          Between 2007 – 2016 there were 686 people killed by homicide (ie murder and manslaughter offences).
          Maori account for approximately a third of homicide victims.
          Males represented 62 percent of all victims.
          The lowest annual homicide figure of 58 was in 2016, with provisional 2017 data even lower at 48.
          Around 7 out of 10 homicides were murders.
          Of all family-linked homicide victims, 40% were male and 60% were female.
          Around 1 in 5 homicides was committed by a current or ex-partner – 75% of victims were female.
          Children under the age of five made up 12 percent of homicide victims.

          • RedLogix 11.1.1.1.1

            The NZ Police report that in 2017 where the victim was described as in a couple relationship with the perpetrator there were:

            8 female victims

            2 male victims

            Each one a tragedy, but it hardly justifies some of the overblown rhetoric above.

            • Sanctuary 11.1.1.1.1.1

              Spain had 71 women murdered by partners in 2003, the highest in the EU at that time. This amounted to one in 650,000.

              In 2017, after 15 years of intense effort with all sorts of ground breaking measures, this had reduced to 60 – one in 766,000. Overall domestic violence rates however are well down in Spain.

              In NZ, ten victims equates to one in 450,000 – much worse than Spain, which has/had one of the worst rates in Europe.

              New Zealand is an incredibly violent and aggressive society compared to Spain – in bars and pubs, on the road, and in the street the levels of latent aggression here are astonishing.

              We really, really need to address our overall acceptance and tolerance of violence and bullying in our society.

          • Rosalie 11.1.1.1.2

            What I’m not seeing in the figures quoted above is the gender of the persons who are going to the extreme act of taking another life. Mike, you commented that rather than gender conditioning issues, acts of violence spring from ignorance. You also refer to people that ‘couldn’t care less about others’. The act of ‘caring’ is an emotional state that arises when the natural human capacity for empathy is still functioning. I agree that females can also shut down their empathic capacity and behave in violent, cruel and sometimes murderous behaviour – more likely towards their children.

            The Family Violence Death review offers the following statstics:
            between 2002 – 2008 there were 186 family violence deaths: men were responsible for 86% of partner homicides, 60% of child homicides, and 73%
            of other family homicides.

            Our culture has gone some way towards self-educating about the link between unhealthy food and lifestyles, and physical illness. We are largely ignorant of the conditions for emotional and mental wellbeing. From that perspective I agree with your remark that ignorance has a part to play.

        • patricia bremner 11.1.1.2

          In Australia they get some things sorted. The Federal Government is running adverts showing family situations where nonchalant attitudes to demeaning behaviours towards girls sets attitudes.

          Scene Boy making sexist put down comments.’Girls are cry babies who tell tales” physically pushing girl.
          Mother responds telling daughter “Boys will be boys”
          Girl responds, ‘Yes I know, I’m a second class citizen and have to accept
          that treatment”
          Mother, ‘That is not what I meant’
          Father looks at his daughter with horrified comprehension.

          There are more of these adverts showing common situations exposed as gender typing. They are conversation starters for what should happen.Perhaps we also need these.

  12. bwaghorn 12

    https://i.stuff.co.nz/life-style/love-sex/109221894/grace-millane-case-tinder-is-not-the-problem-violent-men-are-the-problem

    This woman explains the way I see it.
    Teach th our girls how to stay safe . It’s not right bad things happen ,but they do

    • McFlock 12.1

      That’s a fool’s errand, though. Safety is an illusion.

      Even if you do everything “to stay safe”, there’s still a woman’s male friends, relatives, or partners for her to be murdered by. And the “safe” course of action against one threat can endanger you in regards to another.

      In some instances of heightened threat of a particular nature – like if we know there is a rapist targetting female joggers in a particular area, there might be ways to mitigate that specific and temporary risk. But it will never eliminate the regular threat levels from acquaintances or strangers. Don’t jog at night, the guy nabs people during the day in a moment of opportunity. Go to a gym, some creep operates there. Wear clothing X, pervert Y figures on a workaround. Watch your mates’ drinks, the guy figures out another tactic.

      The only common factor is the male. We need to raise men better.

      • DJ Ward 12.1.1

        62% of homicide victims were men. What do you propose men do to be safe, from offenders.

        • McFlock 12.1.1.1

          Be a role model for boys and young men about not being violent.
          Speak up when their mates are being violent or encouraging violence.
          Offer to help their mates find ways other than violence.

          Stand against violence, all violence, including violence against women. Rather than whataboutism.

        • te reo putake 12.1.1.2

          You do realise that the vast majority of the killers were men, right?

          • Ankerrawshark 12.1.1.2.1

            Some stuff I know is that the majority of perps are aged between 18 – 24 years. This may account for the decreasing homicide rate.

            I would be interested to know any association between homicide and violence and alcohol

    • Sabine 12.2

      So the writer in your article states :
      I said that until we shift the narrative from educating women on how to avoid being murdered, to educating men on not murdering – nothing will change.” Quote ends.

      And then she lists how women should/could/ avoid their rapes, murders, but says absolutely nothing about what men should/could do to avoid murdering / raping someone. (and i put murder/rape together, as often they are friends walking hand in hand)
      And you finish that we need to teach girls how to stay save
      I am just asking to make sure i understand this correctly, cause we have been teaching girls how to stay save since time began

      Don’t wear this out
      Don’t go there, or there or there
      Don’t go out after dark
      Don’t wear heels or you can’t run
      Don’t wear this skirt
      Don’t go dancing alone
      Don’t drink
      Don’t meet people whom you have not met before
      Don’t go out alone
      Don’t travel alone
      Tell your friends were you are going
      Call your friends during your date
      Don’t don’t don’t and yet, despite all our efforts, we still get killed, raped, destroyed anywhere on this planet.

      So how about a curfew on men rather then on women? How about we teach boys and men that women are not play things, that they are not entitled to a women, a vagina or a womb, that women have their own agenda and that includes their own sexual desires and that if she does not want to go with some bloke that murder clearly is not the right thing to do.
      Can we please have someone write an article about that.

      Cause this writer – most likely unintended – just engaged in victim blaming, and so did you – and i would assume you too did so unintentional.

      • DJ Ward 12.2.1

        [Time to take a deep breath. Comment deleted. This is a sensitive topic. Please respect that – MS]

        • Molly 12.2.1.1

          DJ, I think you are confusing The Standard with some of your previous links.

          It is unacceptable to me that you are using it a platform to disparage – not only women – but also the men that do not hold such extreme and unreasonable views.

        • Sacha 12.2.1.2

          I do not know who hurt you, DJ, but that is so out of line on a post like this. Show some respect.

      • In Vino 12.2.2

        Sabine, while man remains the threat, the tactics used must be apt. It is not victim-blaming.
        How to fix the bad men? After nearly 50 yrs of teaching, I still do not know. But I will tell you something: I have also argued with kids against bullying, only to find that girls can be the hardest to convince. They really believe that their victims ‘asked for it.’
        No easy solution to human nature that I can see, sorry..

        • Molly 12.2.2.1

          Maybe arguing is not the approach. Bullies are usually adept at arguing, and changing the focus of discussion. You are going up against professionals there…

          The link that was posted up a couple of days ago of Mike King at Whanganui City College is worth a watch. He recognises the bully in himself, and asks the students to recognise theirs as well. Last episode of Huia, with Mihirangi Forbes.

          • Ankerrawshark 12.2.2.1.1

            I think the Dunedin study and what they found out about children and good self control could be an in to find interventions early………..

            The other obvious place is physical and sexual abuse against children as a precursor to people becoming violent criminals in adulthood

        • McFlock 12.2.2.2

          There is no single playbook predators or impulsive men use. There is no single or consistent attractant for these guys – ‘don’t wear red and you’ll be fine’, sort of thing. Someone can be paranoid and live in a bunker, and there’s some guy who likes the challenge and guaranteed isolation.

          But after the act, Captain Hindsight is always there about “not enough lighting”, “dressed wrong”, “had one too many drinks”, etc.

          The only exception is the brief window where an active and frequent offender in a small community is identified by their methodology and when they are eventually arrested. But even then, there are a lot of other guys to worry about.

        • Sabine 12.2.2.3

          It is, in an article about teaching men how to not murder, and then only list points up how women should try and not get themselves killed or raped it is.

          This is what friends of mine do when they go out on a date with someone for the first time.

          invite friend
          show dress to friend, see if dress is too much, too short, to alluring, too giving the wrong impression, change dress, better now? repeat until a ‘safe dress’ is found. – this will help should you get missing that someone can give the coppers the list of things you wore.
          getting picked up – text rego pick up car to friend – see the points about coppers
          text friend upon arrival at bar/watering hole with address
          have friend call after an hour – if all good, friend will call again in an hour, if not friend will manifest and help girl get out of date
          change venue – text friend with new address
          friend will call again, if all good nothing, if date is getting dodgy friend will manifest for pick up
          text friend with new venue, text to tell friend if you are going home with date, or if date is going home with you.
          picture of date already send to friend – again see the points about coppers
          other things to think of, money for taxi, recharge phone, pepper spray in hand bag, maybe flats to walk, don’t drink of your glass if you had to leave it unattended, don’t drink of that you have not ordered but that got delivered, does your food look like someone messed with it – don’t eat it, make sure your car is full of gas so you get home, have keys to car easy accessible if you need a quick get away, park car in well lit area etc.

          what are your precautions? ..

          I suggest that women re-write that hole article but adds points like such

          – men, always go out with an accountability partner – if you feel the urge to murder or rape go see your partner for help
          – men, if you are not sure that drinking will make you violent, don’t drink, if you have issues with that go see your accountability partner
          – men, if you not sure that your date wants sex, ask. If you are not sure how to ask, some men who have had sex successfully without murdering their partners
          -men, if you are having issues seeing women as full human beings with rights to live, liberty and pursuit of happiness go see a priest, a therapist, or your accountability partner and talk through your issues as to why you feel this way

          but above all, stop writing the same column of how women have to be this or do that in order to not get killed. Cause the only time we write these columns is when another women got killed. Stop putting the onus on a dead women for not keeping herself away from a murderer.

      • Gabby 12.2.3

        That’s all good advice for both sexes.

        • Sabine 12.2.3.1

          true that,
          but we don’t see column of this type of advice for men.
          But we expect it from women to keep themselves safe from predators. And that is wrong.

          Ideally we would prosecute these crimes to the fullest of the law. Ideally murderers would be locked away until kingdom comes. Ideally there would be no deals so as to assure ‘some conviction’. Ideally we would believe women, men and children who come forward with accusations of rape, assault, harassment.

          But sadly we don’t. And as long as we don’t prosecute, incarcerate, and believe the victims the predators have nothing to fear.

          And every time another women dies, another someone is abused, and again we ask ‘what can we do’ and another women will write the same column about how we women are to make sure that we don’t innocently encounter our murderer and get us killed by our own negligence.

      • bwaghorn 12.2.4

        Just for clarity . Would you advise woman to not go to the dates house /room on a first tinder date . Or hitchke alone .

  13. Chris T 13

    While I hope I don’t come across as down playing the crime against Grace Millane in any way, as I really don’t mean to and think it is terrible and frankly disgusting event.

    NZ has a huge problem with male violence full stop.

    The vast majority of people assaulted and killed by violent males are males, so while I appreciate it can be particularly digusting and abhorent when the victim is a female as they are more vulnerable, the whole lot needs to be sorted.

  14. Antoine 14

    A bunch of weird comments above. Can’t people just feel sorry for this lass (and her family) and leave the point scoring alone?

    A.

  15. Observer Tokoroa 15

    Tricky Dicky Law

    British Law is noted for favouring the Criminal rather than giving justice to the Victim.

    I imagine this fattens the Fees for Lawyers and Barristers. It also destroys the much vaunted British Law.

    REF: Tom Whitehead, Home Affairs Editor
    7:00AM BST 06 Aug 2009 Law and Order

    “The idea that prosecutors act as “champions” for victims of crime misrepresented reality, the Commons Justice Committee said.

    “Ministers who tell victims that the system is being “re-balanced” in their favour were likely to leave them disappointed, they concluded after an inquiry into the working of the Criminal Prosecution Service (CPS).”

    “Instead, offenders were being charged with lower offences by prosecutors keen to boost conviction rates.”

    “Violent offenders, muggers, burglars and sex offenders were escaping prison because the CPS wanted to guarantee a guilty verdict, according to magistrates, police and barristers who gave evidence to MPs. ” Does NZ copy Britain ?

    Lawyers should seek Truth. But they often do not have that sort of Integrity. And so The Crim walks out of Court a free man. Jingling coin in his Pocket.

    While a Raped Women is Mourned or Murdered.

  16. mpledger 16

    Is there a way on Tinder to flag a person you’ve been on a date with who creeped you out? Not at the level of criminality so you need to report it to the police but someone who want to save other people from dating.

    • Chris T 16.1

      Sounds like not a bad idea, but could be used to screw someone over out of malice.

    • I feel love 16.2

      Nope. You can even go on anonymously, use a fake pic, fake age whatever. There’s no oversight, it’s one of its (apparent) benefits (as no one is really looking for love on it). So many tourists use it too, even saying “just in (your town) for a few months”, there’s plenty of good advice on how to stay safe using online dating, but obviously not many people follow it. Though to be fair these youngsters are the first to be using a lot of this tech, but it’s a predators playground unfortunately.

  17. Rae 17

    I wonder if it is time now for us all to shut up and let justice take its course. Cannot help thinking all of this could put a proper trial in jeopardy.
    We could save all the outrage and persecution for after the trial.
    We also need to be aware that this could end up with something like a manslaughter verdict, as well.
    As soon as I heard the dating app bit, my mind went straight back to Gable Tostee and the sort of person that he is, legend in his own lunchtime, odd sexual proclivities probably gained from watching porn and more specifically, faux strangulation videos, starring in the next Shades of Grey film, you know the sort, and the real possibility of him being able to claim there was no intention to kill. Think about it.
    I say we leave it now, and let the courts do their business.

    • Gabby 17.1

      Oddly that’s the bugger my mind went to also.

    • ross 17.2

      I’ll be very surprised if this case is anything like the Tostee case. Tostee recorded a three hour conversation with his date, and it appears that police overreached in charging him with murder.

      By the way, the trial is likely to be many months away and nothing said now will have any effect on the trial.

    • ross 17.3

      I’ll be very surprised if this case is anything like the Tostee case. Tostee recorded a three hour conversation with his date, and it appears that police overreached in charging him with murder.

      By the way, the trial is likely to be many months away and nothing said now will have any effect on the trial. You might recall there was an awful lot said about the Clayton Weatherston case pre-trial. Ironically, the main claim for a mistrial in that case was when Law Commissioner Warren Young made public comments about the defence of provocation during the trial. Even that wasn’t sufficient to overturn the verdict.

      https://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/weatherston-appeal-dismissed

  18. riffer 18

    Yes agreed Rae.

    I do wonder if we don’t often confuse vengeance for justice. The two are not the same. I am often left incredulous that so many advocate violence as the solution to violent offending. That is not the hallmark of a just society. I guess deep down we aren’t.

    It is troubling, that there are members of my gender who act so horrifically. I’m not ready, though, to be punished for what a small minority of my gender does (i.e. curfews for men). Yet I don’t know how to solve the problem. Calling men on their behaviour leads to either violence, abuse, or the called-out retreating further from “normal” male society, with the result that these incel types become either ostracized from normal society or find and join with others that behave like themselves, and wallow in their own echo chambers.

    How do we, as men who abhor such behaviour, deal to these people when we can’t even stand to be associated with them?

    • BM 18.1

      Yet I don’t know how to solve the problem

      Can’t be solved, you’ll always have psychopaths in the world, both male and female.
      The key is to be aware of this and take steps to protect yourself.

    • Gabby 18.2

      Maybe a permit to produce testosterone might be in order riffy. First sign you can’t cope with the stuff, off goes the tap.

  19. SHG 19

    Until suppression is lifted in NZ we can’t reveal the identity of the accused*. Until that happens we can’t really speculate on motives. Maybe he was a bad dude. Maybe he was mentally ill. Maybe maybe maybe.

    *unlike media in the UK and Ireland

  20. Adrian Thornton 20

    This was a terrible and horrific crime, but why are we apologising as a nation for the unhinged act of one dysfunctional individual?
    Would any other leader around the world apologized for the murder of one individual?, it all seems very provincial.

    • gsays 20.1

      I would like to think we are a provincial nation.

    • mike 20.2

      may be because nz is such a small country and we all feel the impact even the police officer broke down .

    • Draco T Bastard 20.3

      This was a terrible and horrific crime, but why are we apologising as a nation for the unhinged act of one dysfunctional individual?

      Buggered if I know. Doesn’t happen with every other murder and it shouldn’t happen at all.

      • SHG 20.3.1

        Buggered if I know. Doesn’t happen with every other murder and it shouldn’t happen at all.

        But she was so pretty and white

    • Liberal Realist 20.4

      Fair point.

      Where is the outrage for the bloke who was murdered and decapitated in Petone a week or two back? Another murder of a woman in Auckland (possibly w her son as a witness). I don’t see any outrage about these two recent abhorrent crimes.

    • mauī 20.5

      Candle lit vigils and wall to wall media coverage, is this about dealing with our chronic and tragic youth mental health issue? Oh that’s right we don’t talk about that..

  21. One Two 21

    It is a tragedy, to be sure…

    As is every act of violence again man, woman, child, animal, environment…

    No it’s not ‘kiwi man’ problem…nor it is of higher ‘importance’ than other ‘acts’…

    The PM has set a standard that she can’t/won’t continue to match, whereby every ‘death’ in NZ must be publicly acknowledged in similar fashion…

    Poor judgement by the PM…very poor…

    • gsays 21.1

      Berating a dog a tad vigorously is not a tragedy.
      To equate it to be the killing of a human being is vulgar, crude and ill mannered.
      More so when only to try to score political points.

      Put it away 1 2.

      • One Two 21.1.1

        You’ve managed to misinterpret my comment…

        As is every act of violence again man, woman, child, animal, environment

        Which part of that did you not get?

        I have no political affiliation…Adern is the PM…her judgement was poor…

        Be sure to link to Aderns public commentary at the next death in NZ…whichever reason it occurred…

        • In Vino 21.1.1.1

          What an idiotic comment… According to One Two, Ardern should have gone through today’s Death Notices and apologised to every family concerned. Utterly stupid.
          Try harder, One Two.
          This was obviously a special occasion. Start from there.

          • One Two 21.1.1.1.1

            What Jacinda, and yourself are actually saying is that there are some deaths which are more ‘news worthy’ than others…

            Some deaths are more special than others…good to know…

            Ratings system for deaths , sponsored by The PM and other lightweight thinkers such as yourself…In Vino…

            • Rapunzel 21.1.1.1.1.1

              That is how the media make it, that is where it starts, they are very selective about what deaths matter to cater to people like you who make it political.

        • gsays 21.1.1.2

          The bit you didn’t get about your comment was calling every act of violence a tragedy.
          They are not.

    • Draco T Bastard 21.2

      The PM has set a standard that she can’t/won’t continue to match, whereby every ‘death’ in NZ must be publicly acknowledged in similar fashion…

      And when she doesn’t, because she won’t and neither will any other political ‘leader’, she and they will be saying that other lives aren’t as important as British ones.

      • In Vino 21.2.1

        Bollocks. Too much extrapolation out of this.
        As I remember, 2 Swedish lives were equally important.
        White will be the next thing, I guess..
        The media will always push the biggest click-bait, OK?

        • Draco T Bastard 21.2.1.1

          As I remember, 2 Swedish lives were equally important.

          But NZ lives aren’t?

          Foreign lives aren’t any more important than NZ lives and yet they get more response from the government.

          • In Vino 21.2.1.1.1

            a) I repeat the media clickbait thing, which seems to drive such affairs.
            b) So are we also meant to make a major debate out of every single NZ death? This was a sad, tragic, unnecessary death of a young lady who had just graduated from Massey here in NZ, and who had a whole life to live. I might add that I lived several years in France and Germany and was always treated kindly by my hosts. As we should treat our visitors.
            It strikes a chord more than many other deaths, and was bound to become a big media thing.
            The news media do not deal in logic or fairness.

            • Draco T Bastard 21.2.1.1.1.1

              A) Yes, there is that but that wasn’t what this thread was about. It was about the PM making a song and dance about it.
              B) No we’re not. That was the point. By making a song and dance about this one indicates that British citizens are more important than the locals.

              It strikes a chord more than many other deaths, and was bound to become a big media thing.

              Why would it do that? What makes this murder any more relatable than any others?

  22. Sacha 22

    Michele A’Court describes the constant work women do to stay safe from male violence.
    https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/on-the-inside/378031/michele-a-court-the-things-we-do-to-keep-ourselves-safe

    And it’s why, when the worst thing happens to someone else – the thing you have been working so hard to save yourself from – you feel it personally. Because you know that none of the things you are doing daily to keep yourself safe will always work, all the time. And it could have just as easily been you. That’s part of the reason many of us feel so connected to Grace Millane – we have lived some aspects of that night ourselves, and have consciously and explicitly feared the rest.

  23. RedLogix 23

    Men are on average about 60% more aggressive than women; but at the extreme where aggression becomes homicide it’s actually quite rare.

    And given the way normalised distributions work it’s entirely predictable that most (but crucially not all) perpetrators are male. But confusing the extreme upper tail end of the aggression spectrum with the average behaviour of most people is a mistake.

    The vast majority of men, more than 99.99% are not murderers. A large majority of men will never raise their hand against someone else, much less a woman, in all their adult lives. Almost 40% are less aggressive than the average woman.

    At the end of this OP the author asks the question; ‘what are men going to do about it’, without specifying exactly what we might do that would be effective in preventing these rare and extreme events. It seems to me the question is entirely rhetorical, it dumps a collective guilt on all men, for the appalling and reprehensible act of one individual about which none of us could have done anything.

    As such it reduces a sad and horrible tragedy to an opportunity to push a political agenda. I can understand the disgust and anger over what has happened, I’m less impressed with the point scoring.

    • SHG 23.1

      You are misquoting Jordan Peterson. What he said was

      If you took a random woman out of the population and a random man, and you had to bet on who was more temperamentally aggressive, if you bet on the man you’d be right 60 percent of the time

      • RedLogix 23.1.1

        You’re right. I didn’t frame it accurately; it was late at night is my excuse 🙂 It’s a complex topic, Peterson’s point is based as I understand it mostly on personality test scores but has many other dimensions as well. This is a pretty good read for a start:

        https://www.nytimes.com/1983/06/20/style/aggression-still-a-stronger-trait-for-males.html

        While there is a clear and ineradicable biological foundation to aggression (you actually need it and the idea of suppressing or getting ‘rid of it’ is wrong-headed), there are a range of social factors as to how it gets expressed.

        Also modern research throws up all sorts of interesting aspects to female aggression too:

        https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3826207/

        https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnbeh.2018.00081/full

        Interestingly the group with the highest rates of intimate partner violence seem to be lesbian couples. That presses pause on the conventional narrative that it’s entirely a male problem.

        • Molly 23.1.1.1

          Hi RL,

          The links provided some interesting considerations but mostly theoretical suppositions that required further research. Also, couldn’t find an accessible link to the female same-sex couple study on intimate partner violence. Couldn’t get past the abstract, which doesn’t describe what you have concluded.

          Am I looking in the wrong place, do you have a link to the study you are referring to?

          • RedLogix 23.1.1.1.1

            Was in a hurry to catch a trip back to site, so I didn’t apply enough care to that last above. And now I’m back to typing on the damn phone at an airport 😛

            My last part wasn’t related to the links I provided, but from memory. It’s out there in google land if you care to look.

    • Adrian Thornton 23.2

      @RedLogix +1 Well said.

    • Sabine 23.3

      “The vast majority of men, more than 99.99% are not murderers. A large majority of men will never raise their hand against someone else, much less a woman, in all their adult lives. Almost 40% are less aggressive than the average woman.”

      that is true, but then the average women who would like to date someone, or just simply go home safely at night, does not know if you are one of the 60% or one of the 40% and thus will treat you as a potential murderer/rapist until proven otherwise.

      A good way to start for men is by teaching boys and girls about consent,

      Like, no hitting a girl/boy in a sand box is not a sign of love
      no, pulling someones hair is not ok, so don’t.
      no, pulling someones bra straps is not funny, it hurts
      proper sexual education, proper education as to what is consent, proper education that girls, women are actual human beings with actual wants, needs and the likes
      yes, women/girls have the right to say no, they are not to keep sweet if you give them grief, they can say NO.
      no, making fun of those that are ‘other’ is not cool

      and yet, this is where i think we have an issue with, is teaching these little things from earliest age on. Boundaries, Consent, Asking/Giving for oneself and others. Respect of others.

      But to say that asking for what can be done other then telling women what to do is ‘political point’ scoring? Is that like in the US where nothing can be done bout guns cause that too is to political too soon after someone kills? Just a cheap cop out so as to not have to do anything?

      • RedLogix 23.3.1

        does not know if you are one of the 60% or one of the 40%

        You’ve completely misunderstood what this means. It means that if you take a random man and a random woman there is a 60% chance the man will have a more (not necessarily much more) aggressive aspect to his personality.

        It doesn’t mean there is a 60% chance he will murder you; the chance of that is vanishingly rare. Of the many tens of millions of encounters between a man and a woman on a daily basis this last year, just a tiny handful resulted in death. Your far more likely to be killed driving to the date than to be killed by him.

        Women are usually more physically vulnerable and on the whole have stronger negative emotional reactions to threat; but it doesn’t help anyone to create unnecessary anxiety over what is in reality an extremely unlikely outcome.

        Most of the rest of your comment I totally agree with; we do a pretty poor job of teaching young people about how relationships work, and it’s not surprising that in their ignorance, anger, pain and shame they often do stupid things. That’s definitely something we can work on … for both genders.

        I’m not attempting a cop-out here, just suggesting that we should be clear on what the real problem is and what might be effective.

        • Sabine 23.3.1.1

          I know full well what you mean, but in my scenario a women does not not., and i have raised this issue on more then one occasion. No matter what study you or other bring up, the question always remains:

          How are women to know if you are the good guy or the bad guy?

          so you are on tinder – are you the 40% or the 60%? Don’t know
          walking home and you are walking behind me – are you the 40% or the 60%? don’t know
          going to my car in a car park – you are also going to your car – are you the 40% or the 60%?

          so as i said, in all of these scenarios until i am safe you are one of the bad guys and i will act accordingly, running home, going to my car with pepper spray ready in my hands ( i had a time in life i walked home with an open knife in my hand), and looking at your profile and going yeah, nah nah…..staying home tonight. Safer.

          That is the actual reality of women navigating public spaces, guessing if you are one of the good ones or one of the bad ones. And i am sure other women here on this board could add to that.

          The real problem for men is that the guys doing this shit are hiding behind the ones that don’t, are often supported by a ‘boy will be boy’ mentality, are often promoted by a ‘boy will be boy’ mentality and see nothing wrong with doing nothing cause it ain’t them, and they have a whole political system to protect them.

          the examples of me meeting one of the 40% in my life, my stepfather at home, a boyfriend who took exception to me moving out – the last time i really had long hair btw – ain’t no one gonna drag me through a room by it anymore, a stranger in the road – luckily i was armed with an umbrella, and the very last time – a co worker whom i found nice, whom found me nice, and then one night after a date he locked the car and ‘jokingly’ refused to let me go…….

          now most of these guys are what society would believe to be ‘good’ guys. Outwardly surely they are. My stepfather is MR. Nice and a rapist. How do you expect girls and women to protect themself from it?

          So really my call to action would be is to prosecute these crimes when they come up without any ifs whens whys. The roastbusters come to mind. Why were they not charged with ‘supplying alcohol to minors’? Would that be because a drunk person can’t actually consent, and thus if the Police would have charged them with supplying alcohol to minors, sexual abuse charges would have had to follow? But hey, nothing happened to the little dears, clearly they are of the 40% and the girls……really does anyone give a dime about the girls?

          So again, how are women to navigate this world when men can’t seem to come up with anything they could potentially do to keep women somewhat safe?

          Maybe you could come up with something concrete and thus the discussion can start, but again, it seems to me that the onus is on the women, lest she gets herself raped or killed or beaten or or or or .

          • Molly 23.3.1.1.1

            Thanks Sabine, your comments are appreciated.

            I think that continually reframing the discussion of violence (particularly serious psychological and bodily violence leading to death or permanent injury) in the way the RL requires, will not be – as he says – ” clear on what the real problem is and what might be effective.”.

            Men and women suffer from the harm perpetrated by offenders (the most violent of which are male), but also suffer from the societal mores that actively label some forms of aggression as assertiveness, and predatory behaviour (such as Roastbusters) as immaturity.

            (I also wouldn’t be putting too much effort into whatever the 40%/60% statement means, since it appears to be from Jordan Peterson who does not seem to be a scrupulous user of statistics.)

            • Sabine 23.3.1.1.1.1

              I truly believe that we need to continue to having this debate, as clearly violence is not going away and the damage done to society is not measured, but should be. It should be measured in terms of Dollars, time lost working, time needed for healing physically, time needed for therapy, emotionally stunted children growing into adults perpetuating the circle and so on.

              As for stats, who asks the question, and who answered is always the key part, but then I don’t care that much. I can run with his argument and still ask the question that to me is the one that in my 50+ years of life no one ever answered.

              How am i to navigate the world, how am i to live my life to the fullest, how am i to keep myself safe from predators if we don’t even take the cases to court where abuse is clear for fear of not getting a win or a good enough win to statisfy the Prosecutors who seem to be interested more in the win rather then the safekeeping of our society.

              • Molly

                “I truly believe that we need to continue to having this debate”
                As do I, but I am alarmed at the discussion regarding violence in society being derailed by requirements for specific framing to the extent where the discussion fails to take place.

                Statistics used out of context and with disregard for appropriateness, can often lead to long discussions about percentages and not about solutions.

                Violence in our society is a complex, multi-faceted problem, that likely requires a complex, multi-pronged approach solution.

                It seems that lately quite a few comments on TS are bombarding violence discussions with requirements on how to frame the problem instead of addressing it.

                • RedLogix

                  40 years of women having the dominant voice on this issue and you wonder why a lot of men remain checked out?

                  Because as long as the problem remains framed as a power drama between the genders we stay stuck in conflict rather than resolution.

                  Something any couples therapist might tell you.

                  • Men have the dominant voice red they frame the debate and don’t listen very well and then often pretend like the victim. As a man I find it appalling especially with the amount of undisputed male violence in our society.

                    • RedLogix

                      Sorry but experience tells me that replying to you gets personal way too fast.

                      I wish it wasn’t so.

                    • Yes I don’t tolerate some ideas for sure. Sorry for your discomfort I’ll leave you to it. But I am pleased others reading the thread won’t think all men think or agree with you.

                  • Molly

                    “40 years of women having the dominant voice on this issue and you wonder why a lot of men remain checked out?”
                    What is the description of your “dominant voice”?
                    Does this ineffectual framing really give men the excuse to “check out”?

                    “Because as long as the problem remains framed as a power drama between the genders we stay stuck in conflict rather than resolution.”
                    Failing to recognise any gender dynamic – because you don’t want to – means the issue is not discussed with solutions in mind.

                    “Something any couples therapist might tell you.”
                    You are conflating the issue of individual’s sorting out individual issues and differences with societal mores and norms perpetuating violence on men, women and children.

                    Ignoring the harm that society mores contributes to ongoing violence makes me think your framing is deliberate, to derail any critique of the contribution that men could make to change societal practices. You instead support men “checking out”.

                    • RedLogix

                      There is no question that since the 70’s at least the public agenda on this specific topic has been set from a female perspective. Indeed for most of my adult life what you are saying is exactly what I believed too.

                      But over time it’s become increasingly clear that by itself this wasn’t a sufficient voice, that it left the male experience marginalised at best. Often shamed and sneered at.

                      In my work if a process isn’t delivering results we step back, reconsider and improve what we are doing.

                    • RedLogix

                      Well I have to go now. Hopefully we might productively carry this forward on some other thread.

                    • Molly

                      “There is no question that since the 70’s at least the public agenda on this specific topic has been set from a female perspective. Indeed for most of my adult life what you are saying is exactly what I believed too.
                      What is the public agenda as you see it?
                      What is it you believe I am saying? And I’d appreciate if you could show this by repeating my comments where I say it.

                      But over time it’s become increasingly clear that by itself this wasn’t a sufficient voice, that it left the male experience marginalised at best. Often shamed and sneered at.
                      Oh, Hell – welcome back. There are those amongst us – male and female – that respond to complex issues with ill-thought harmful reactions. I have never shamed and sneered at the issue of male victims of violence, and would never support anybody who did.

                      In my work if a process isn’t delivering results we step back, reconsider and improve what we are doing.”
                      Yes. But that does not mean that all discussions on violence need to be reframed to focus on male victims. Society is the victim with harm done to men, women and children.

                      The influence of men on men’s behaviour is greater than the influence of women on men’s behaviour. The issue of womens voices on violence preceding for decades – men’s voices – may be due not to the “incorrect” framing of the voices, but to the lack of influence those female voices have – and continue to have – on the levers of change.

            • marty mars 23.3.1.1.1.2

              + 1 Molly and + 1 Sabine

            • RedLogix 23.3.1.1.1.3

              I’m pretty sure Peterson was using psychometric data as the basis of this idea.

              And on the face of it it’s not an unreasonable claim. Men aren’t all mad monsters raping and pillaging their way through life on a daily basis.

              We’re capable of it yes, but as I said elsewhere it’s helpful to keep the real context in mind, the vast majority of interactions between the genders are peaceable.

              Sure they can be clumsy, misdirected, and stupid, but that’s not necessarily the same thing as criminal. Often it’s just a matter of growing up a bit.

              • Molly

                Pretty sure – and Jordan Peterson – seems to be par for the mill.

                You keep putting up strawman arguments, and knocking them down. Neither Sabine or I have said that “all man are mad monsters, raping and pillaging their way through life on a daily basis.”

                To imply that we have, is already a derailment.

                What Sabine has indicated, and with with I agree, is that all men are able to take a role in reducing violence in our society. All women too.

                However, the influence of men on other men is greater, and their efforts are likely to be more sustainable and effective. Unless, like you they “check out” because… you know… women.

                • RedLogix

                  Good to see you can spot a really obvious strawman;how about leaving off laying them on me please?

                  Nowhere have I said almost all of the things you claim I think. It’s as if your hearing a monster of your own making than listening.

                  • Molly

                    “Good to see you can spot a really obvious strawman;how about leaving off laying them on me please?

                    Nowhere have I said almost all of the things you claim I think. It’s as if your hearing a monster of your own making than listening.”

                    Link to me making such a comment to you, as I am finding this response dishonest.

                    Closest I can find is me responding to your comment:
                    “40 years of women having the dominant voice on this issue and you wonder why a lot of men remain checked out?” with “However, the influence of men on other men is greater, and their efforts are likely to be more sustainable and effective. Unless, like you they “check out” because… you know… women.”

                    Hardly a strawman argument. Just a critique of your statement.

          • RedLogix 23.3.1.1.2

            “How to tell the good guys from the bad”?

            Well all people have the same problem really. But in a dating context I understand how and why this is more acute for women.

            The answer is that partly that you can’t, not if you also want the freedom to make your own choices and take your own risks in life.

            Another part is that traditionally women used a lot of social pre-selection to weed out most of the problematic blokes. Church, work, clubs, friends of friends were common settings used to get a sense of another person before you started dating. Tinder kinda short circuits that.

            • Sabine 23.3.1.1.2.1

              And still the women then got beaten by their hubbies at home – you know the ones that they weeded out in church etc and instead of ‘stranger danger’ it is called ‘domestic violence’ which still leaves scores of women dead the world over.

              So the point is still standing, what will society do to protect women from predators.

              And it still leaves the question open what can men do? First thing comes to mind, and i will leave it at that, maybe Men just need to stop saying that there is nothing that can be done, or that they can’t think of anything that they can do.

              Right? Cause nothing can be done.

              • RedLogix

                Nowhere have I said nothing can be done.

                What I am saying is that if you want people to behave better, the starting point is not shouting9 them down.

                And this phone isn’t a medium I can accurately convey a more complex answer on.

                • Molly

                  “What I am saying is that if you want people to behave better, the starting point is not shouting9 them down.

                  And this phone isn’t a medium I can accurately convey a more complex answer on.”
                  I don’t think responding to requests to reframe the discussion along specific criteria that essentially focuses on harm done to men is equivalent to “shouting them down”.

                  … and maybe it isn’t the medium of the phone that is the problem…

                • Sabine

                  Really? I am asking what can be done? And you consider this shouting?

                  Good grief, and this is why women still die, men still don’t report if they get raped, women still don’t report if they get raped, and children just get abused until they are completely broken or dead, cause asking what can be done, asking men to step up and do something other then say ‘it ain’t me’, is shouting.

                  What ever, just go on blaming your phone for not being able to answer the simple question

                  How are women to differentiate between the blokes that kill and rape and the blokes that don/t.
                  And what can be done to address the fact that women and men seem to die at the hand of men more often then no.

                  • RedLogix

                    What ever, just go on blaming your phone for not being able to answer the simple question

                    There are at six good reasons why I find using a phone in this forum constraining. On top of this I was time limited and reluctant to get drawn into a complex topic. So I offer a simple, straightforward explanation for why I’m not directly responding to your questions/challenges as well as I’d like … and you question my motives.

                    But to make up for this, now I have a proper keyboard here is my reply. Fair warning it’s long; but you asked for it.

                    How are women to differentiate between the blokes that kill and rape and the blokes that don/t.

                    The simple answer is you can’t. All people are capable of evil; that’s the hard irreducible reality I can’t make go away with any kind of anodyne answer.

                    Only the naive go through life pretending there are no malicious people out there. When they do encounter them unprepared it’s often the root cause of traumatic shock. About 1% of the population are gold-plated psychopaths, a 5% or so have reasonably severe personality disorders that make life with the exceedingly difficult.

                    Only a small fraction of these people enact their dysfunction in criminal acts, but they exist and we don’t know of any effective treatment beyond locking them up when we do catch them.

                    And then there are the truly damaged people who’ve decided they hate the human race and are determined to inflict as much pain and suffering as they can. I can offer you no solution for cold malice except to take reasonable precautions when you meet an unknown person and hope like hell you spot them before it’s too late. Otherwise run like hell.

                    It’s really up to you how much adventure/risk you’re willing to tolerate in life; but as I’ve elsewhere, it’s not helpful to over-estimate the actual hazard. Risk has two components, one is the likelihood of it happening, the other is the severity of the consequence. The world could end in an asteroid impact in five minutes time, but despite the very high impact (literally) the likelihood is so low most of us discount the effective hazard to near zero.

                    But when the potential impact is personal, and deeply emotional, we tend to overstate the total risk even when the likelihood is low. This is especially applies to sex crimes which invoke strong feelings of disgust and anger. So I understand that pointing out that the murder of Grace Millane is statistically likely to be the only ‘stranger danger’ murder of it’s type this year …. doesn’t really change how people feel about it. This complicates any discussion a lot.

                    The inescapable fact remains that we are a dimorphic species, that males have evolved over millions of years to be somewhat stronger and more physically aggressive than females. This indeed is quite clearly sexually selected for by females; who almost universally have a preference for mates who are taller, stronger and more capable of providing protection than they are. More than anything else this preference has made men who they are … for the most part what women wanted.

                    But the difference is not huge (like for example sea-lions or gorillas). Human males are not so much more aggressive that we cannot live socially in relative harmony most of the time, and nor are females devoid of aggression themselves. Just from simple observation Peterson’s 60:40 claim seems reasonable. It’s just that most people don’t think through the obvious implications and tend to conflate the preponderance of males are the extreme with how all men are.

                    What does all this suggest? It doesn’t say that there is nothing we can do about the problem of human violence. It does suggest that some ideas are unlikely to work; for instance expecting males to become just like females. We all have biological natures that are impossible, dangerous even, to deny.

                    Another point that Peterson makes; the most dangerous men are those who delude themselves into thinking they’re harmless. They’re not; instead they’re the ones most likely not to understand boundaries, when to say no and lack the courage to say what they believe in.

                    Many years back Kim Hill interviewed retiring QC Mike Bungay; a prominent defense barrister with a colourful career. One thing he said that comes back at this moment, “In his experience, about 80% of all murders are committed by ordinary people, who find themselves in extraordinary circumstances they lacked the understanding to control”.

                    My argument has always been this; that knowing yourself and understanding what you’re truly capable of is the key to controlling yourself. In this sense it is true, all men are potential rapists; just as all guns are inherently dangerous But both are safest in the hands of skilled owner who understands their hazard and has the skills to control them.

                    Fortunately due to a combination of extreme social sanction and a sense of decency almost all men control themselves, most of the time. Traditionally most men saw themselves as protectors of women which placed another layer of constraint on their behaviour. (Of course this social responsibility could also be exploited; and men like this used to be called ‘womanisers’ or worse and where usually shunned.)

                    Another part of the problem for men is the relatively passive nature of the female sexual strategy. In order to attract the most desirable mate they can, women go to a lot of trouble to decorate, clothe and present themselves as attractively as possible. The problem this creates is simple; it’s not very selective and attracts a wide range of male attention; most of which is not desired. To solve this problem we used to have a complex of courting rituals in which each gender signaled to each other their interest in relatively non–threatening ways. Tinder left swiped all that into the dustbin of history 🙂

                    Another very challenging aspect is the Pill; reliable contraception changed the very social nature of women. Prior to this unwanted pregnancy carried a very real and high cost for women, and they naturally evolved a high degree of risk aversion to unwanted sex. The Pill mostly removed the physical risk to women, but what’s much less obvious was that their emotional caution and sensitivity to sexual threat in any form has remained as strong as ever.

                    So when women announced in the 70’s that they were the same as men, and their ‘equals’ in every respect, many men of my generation made the mistake of thinking maybe this meant that they were ok with being treated like men treated other men. Very quickly we discovered this was not actually so, creating a lot of confused people.

                    Complicating matters further both genders pursue mixed mating strategies. Both genders have a hard-wired ancient drive to seek the most attractive mate; in the male case it’s pretty much as many fertile females aged 16 – 24 as possible, while in the female case it’s a selective group of powerful, high status males representing a high capacity to provide, protect and confer social status. This is the passionate strategy, is pretty much the opposite of monogamy and carries a high risk of instability.

                    And at the same time, both genders have a more socially evolved desire to find a stable, monogamous partner who will be a reliable parent and mutual companion through all the hardships in life. This is the reliable strategy but carries a high commitment risk. For women it may mean their partner fails to live up to material expectations, while for men lacking certainty of paternity, it may well mean mal-investing decades of your life raising some other man’s children.

                    And both genders can pursue each of these conflicting strategies at different times of their life, or even at the same time. Very confusing until you understand it.

                    Another big difference is how women readily form social support networks and relationships. They will happily talk with each other at length about the crisis in their lives, their idiot men and intimate details of their sex lives even. Not so men; all this was traditionally verbotten. Not until the internet made pseudonymous conversations possible have men ever been able to speak openly about their often surprisingly rich and complex emotional lives.

                    But at this point I’m reminded of a line from an old Ray Bradbury story “And at the stroke of 9pm all the men on earth suddenly did what their women has so long yearned they might do, and spoke openly of their feelings, emotions and deep frustrations with their lives. Then at mid-night all the women on earth suddenly began to wish that the men might stop.” (I paraphrase from memory.) Certainly not everything men have had to say was coherent or pleasant to listen to. After being bottled up for so long; it came blurting out in blobs of rage and sadness.

                    At the bottom of all this I keep asking myself why all this hurt and pain. Most couples standing for their wedding photos are not secretly thinking “I’m so looking forward to beating the crap out of this bitch”, or “I can so screw with this dolts mind, how much fun can I have shaming his fragile little ego to a quivering pulp”. Most people don’t get into any kind of relationship with the intent of hurting each other. So what goes wrong?

                    Well I’m still persuaded that the dynamics of what goes on between a couple are quite analogous to what happens between the genders on a social scale. Three things come to mind:

                    1. We don’t express ourselves honestly to each other, or if we do someone doesn’t want to listen. Issues get suppressed and not talked about. Negative emotional energy accumulates.

                    2. Rather than resolve the issue each gender retreats into a zero-sum power struggle, each determined to ‘win’ their point of view.

                    3. At some point the stalemate breaks and each gender reaches for the weapons they are most capable with; men their physical aggression, women their emotional aggression.

                    If you’ve stuck with me this far, thank you. But I’ve a confession to make; I don’t have ANY silver bullet list of recommendations to ‘fix’ the problem. No single person does; the problem of human aggression and why we hurt each other, often when we never really want to, is way too multi-dimensional and complex. And personal too.

                    But I can point to my short list above:

                    We accept that communicating honestly means listening to things we don’t want to hear.

                    We stop framing the conflict as a power differential game.

                    We stop shaming and blaming each other, and put down our weapons.

  24. Well, you are half right, One Two. The circumstances of this murder are newsworthy, both here and in the UK. That’s a fact. That doesn’t mean some deaths are ‘more special’ just that some are more newsworthy. That’s not the issue.

    The PM has echoed the zeitgeist; NZ is particularly horrified by this killing.

    Why that should be is the real question.

    • SHG 24.1

      NZ is particularly horrified by this killing.

      Nope. Doesn’t really affect me.

      The murder rate has been declining since the mid-seventies, which is good. This death is terrible for the family involved, but one death doesn’t prove anything about crime or culture any more than the temperature of one day proves something about climate change.

  25. vto 25

    trp, when I got kicked off here by weka some many months ago it was during a discussion about this very thing…

    … I recall you saying ‘you can’t blame the apples, they are grown by the tree’ implying correctly that it is the tree that is the problem.

    Yet here you are asking what the apples can do to ensure better apples are grown in the future.

    • I’m not sure if that quote was from me, vto. You might recall I was also banned for a long period around that time. However, I concur with what you are saying.

      To extend the metaphor, I’d say the post suggests the apples need to evolve to be the tree. We men have got to accept that this is a problem only we can solve and, like the apple, we’ve got the potential to grow up to be something bigger and better.

      And while we are on a apple riff, here’s one of my favourite Joe Strummer songs. It’s a metaphor for how men should respect women:

      “If you want the honey, then you don’t go killing all the bees.”

  26. Mark 26

    “Men, we have so much to do. We can’t change history, however we can work with our mates and with our boys to make Aotearoa safer day by day.

    If we men don’t make the change, who will?”

    Sorry, but this is baloney.

    The only ones who need to ‘make the change’ are the ones who carry out these types of horrific crimes – and by then it is too late. You are always going to get a small number of sick bastards in any large population of people. Men are more likely to commit crimes of any sort because they are so biologically wired to do so.

    Practical actions would be to teach young women effective self defense techniques – (kick to the balls, gouging the eyes etc) and to teach them awareness on how to spot these sorts of psychos – in the end women are extremely vulnerable, and should let a friend (preferably male relative) know if they are going into a situation where they could be unsure of things (and preferably avoid these types of scenarios altogether).

    And where the evidence is completely incontrovertible (not circumstancial evidence or racist jackups like what happened to Mike Tyson), the perpetrator should be swinging from the nearest lamp post. Regardless of the deterrent effect, it would be a righteous demonstration of society’s outrage.

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