Open mike 12/10/2014

Written By: - Date published: 7:15 am, October 12th, 2014 - 191 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

openmikeOpen mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

191 comments on “Open mike 12/10/2014 ”

  • Comments are now closed

  1. karol 1
    12 October 2014 at 7:25 am

    I’ve just found out about this Auckland Westie Festival – haven’t been to it before (Sunday is my usual work day):

    Waitakere festival:

    It’s more of a cultural than a political festival – aimed at maintaining a westie culture since the beginning of Auckland “super-city”. There is an environmental theme to it, focused on The Project Twin Streams.

    Most of it focuses on live music and other arts and culture activities.

    • The Pink Postman 1.1
      12 October 2014 at 2:59 pm

      Karol.
      Just a few years ago Auckland hosted the wonderfull Labour Day weekend festival/
      Great talent from NZ and overseas ,M y family never missed one and from the Waikato.
      Ended by the despicable John Banks . Who by the way has enough money to pay for Artistes if he wishes to see our talent. What a mean plonker . Lets hope he is never elected to public office ever again.

  2. phillip ure 2
    12 October 2014 at 7:50 am

    comment@whoar:..herald editorial writer..(roughan..?..o’sullivan..?)..has a final spit/gob/good riddance! at harawira..

    (ed:..this is an example of just how much the right/establishment hate/fear harawira..

    ..i doubt there would have been a more small-minded editorial piece in this rag..

    ..for many a long year..

    (cont..)

    http://whoar.co.nz/2014/herald-editorial-writer-roughan-osullivan-has-a-final-spitgobgood-riddance-at-harawira/

    • Manuka - Ancient Order of Rawsharks 2.1
      12 October 2014 at 10:30 am

      Why did that editor not sign it? It is not a comment on a blog site, it is an Editorial in the Herald. If it is truly their opinion and not paid-for propaganda, why wouldn’t the writer put their name to it?

      • Draco T Bastard 2.1.1
        12 October 2014 at 12:21 pm

        Despite what the MSM want you to believe you usually do know the name of the person writing on blogs. It’s pseudonymity here and not anonymity.

        • Manuka - Ancient Order of Rawsharks 2.1.1.1
          12 October 2014 at 2:26 pm

          It is not on a blog. It is presented as a Herald Editorial and is unsigned. Not even a pseudonym. It is a malicious opinion piece designed to denigrate Hone, shooting him in the back on his way out of the wasps nest. For the Herald to publish that piece of work minus any signature is an act of cowardice, an avoidance of accountability for their own words.

  3. Troubled Soul 3
    12 October 2014 at 8:05 am

    Stop Press:
    Annette King is putting herself forward for the Labour Party Leadership. Trevor Mallard will be her campaign manager.

    King says she is disgusted with Shearer and Goff for pushing Parker forward as the fall-back should Robertson slip into third in the preferences after Cunliffe and Little.

    King says that on the daily “Anything But Co-operative” conference call it had been agreed that a Wellington Region MP was to be the back-up for the faltering Robertson.
    King says she has proven leadership skills having driven the successful ABC faction since October 2007 when Helen Clark appointed Cunliffe Health Minister rather than her. King insists that is was very mean of Helen to not give her Health for reasons un-related to the Hawkes Bay.

  4. Ad 4
    12 October 2014 at 8:13 am

    Karol’s reminder of the Waitakere Festival parallels the National Radio commentary this morning on Dunedin’s Blueskin Bay. Resistance to bog-standard capitalism may not re-emerge in a cohrent nationwide political form for many years. And even local government is regularly gutted by reformation. But communitarian clusters can work. They can build up new leaders. They can find a scope for change and grasp it and make it happen.

    They can also burn people out, and are no substitute for national governments. But I think this is where we are now. Politically, we are really starting again.

    • phillip ure 4.1
      12 October 2014 at 8:23 am

      @ ad.

      “..Politically, we are really starting again..”

      i wd agree with that..

      ..int/mana weren’t ‘it’..

      ..greens weren’t /aren’t ‘it’..

      ..and labour sure as fucken hell aren’t ‘it’..

      ..their kow-towing rush to war with national/key..has me finally turning away spitting contempt at them..they are beyond any fucken hope of being a true progressive party..

      ..they are just a sub-section of a rotting/rotten establishment..

      ..and i am not sure what question ‘labour’ is the answer to..

      ..but it sure as hell isn’t what we want/need..

      ..so..what will be ‘it’..?

      • phillip ure 4.1.1
        12 October 2014 at 8:38 am

        and i think i really couldn’t give a flying fuck who leads labour to its’ grave..

        ..why doesn’t nash stand..?

        ..at least he is the most honest/open about his rightwing-leanings..

        ..the others just talk fucken lying/mealy-mouthed mush..

        ..and labour deserves to become the nz first-like rump-party it will become..

        ..with of course..their grand-coalition with national (‘to keep the radicals out of power’) being the final nail in their coffin..

        ..this is labours’ future..

      • BM 4.1.2
        12 October 2014 at 8:41 am

        ..so..what will be ‘it’..?

        UKIP type of party.

        • phillip ure 4.1.2.1
          12 October 2014 at 8:44 am

          already tried that..their name is act..

          ..and aside from some serious ongoing success @ troughing on their part..

          ..that hasn’t worked out that well..

          • BM 4.1.2.1.1
            12 October 2014 at 8:54 am

            Act isn’t a UKIP type of party

            NZ First is, though.

            • phillip ure 4.1.2.1.1.1
              12 October 2014 at 9:01 am

              i thought a blend of the two..

              ..however you slice it..we have already been there/done that..

            • Te Reo Putake 4.1.2.1.1.2
              12 October 2014 at 9:07 am

              Yes, you’re right there, BM. Protectionist, xenophobic and nothing without their leader. There was an interesting poll result overnight; despite Ed Miliband being personally unpopular, Labour have a solid 7 point lead over the Tories. UKIP are looking likely to split the vote in many southern Tory seats allowing Labour to win them even on a relatively small vote. That should have the effect of exaggerating the overall number of seats Labour win in comparison to their actual popularity.

              http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/oct/11/labour-lead-over-tories-poll-conservatives-election

              And Farage has just ruled out pre-election deals with the Tories to stop that happening.

              http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/oct/11/nigel-farage-rules-out-ukip-election-pact-tories

              • phillip ure …
                12 October 2014 at 9:13 am

                “..UKIP are looking likely to split the vote in many southern Tory seats allowing Labour to win them even on a relatively small vote…”

                pretty much just what the greens just did up and down the country..eh..?

                ..and what they do every election..

                ..split the vote..and allow the right to waltz thru into power..

                ..(but they are polite..i am sure you will be all reassured by the fact their green candidate in ohariu belmont..one tane woodley..who split over 2,500 votes from the progressive bloc..

                ..allowing dunne to win by just 700 votes..

                ..well..he is on record at ‘congratulating’ dunne on his victory..

                ..and i am still waiting for a green to fucken explain why they do this/fuck the progressive bloc..

                ..each and every election..

                • The Al1en …
                  12 October 2014 at 9:46 am

                  “pretty much just what the greens just did up and down the country..eh..?..and what they do every election…split the vote..and allow the right to waltz thru into power..”

                  That’s just bizarre.

                  • phillip ure …
                    12 October 2014 at 10:35 am

                    why don’t you go and get/borrow a calculator..

                    ..then have a look at each electorate result..

                    ..and then come back and tell us just how many progressive-bloc defeats are down to that vote-splitting…

                    ..and yes..it is ‘just bizarre’ that the greens continue to do this..

                    ..with no sign/signal of them changing their ways at all..

                    • The Al1en …
                      12 October 2014 at 10:47 am

                      Bizarre that out of all the reasons for the past three election losses, you would ignore a multitude of contributing factors, yet you choose to point the finger at a couple of thousand voters in epsom and ohariu and the green party for standing candidates, even though they have to in order to participate in constituency debates to push the party vote.

                      I’m not buying your meme. I look for the motive.

                    • phillip ure …
                      12 October 2014 at 11:12 am

                      “..even though they have to in order to participate in constituency debates to push the party vote..”

                      bullshit..!

                      ..go talk to nz first..

                      ..their supporters only have one choice..

                      ..and i wonder how many ‘green’ supporters split their vote..

                      ..and gave a candidate tick to the green candidate..and the party tick o another party..

                      ..a party vote only campaign ensures no ‘green’ votes are wasted in that way..

                      and the have to ‘participate in constituency debates etc..?

                      ..bullshit..!

                      ..the only people who go to those..are candidates and their supporters..

                      ..and to pretty much nil media coverage..

                      ..no minds are changed..

                      ..that reason to stand candidates is utter bullshit..

                      ..especially when you weigh it up against the devastation wreaked on the progressive bloc..

                      ..by that vote-splitting..

                      ..the progressive bloc should be able to stay in power virtually forever..

                      ..but until they sort that out..and learn how to play the game that is mmp..

                      ..they/we are rooted..

                      ..and the tories/reactionaries..who play mmp like a well-tuned violin..

                      ..will continue to waltz thru the middle..

                      ..and will continue to rule over us..

                    • The Al1en …
                      12 October 2014 at 2:09 pm

                      I bemoaned the lack of cohesion and strategy on the left for a good number of years now, especially around tactical voting and presenting a unified opposition, so playing the outrage/blame card is moot.

                      Holding the green party responsible for losing those two seats and three elections is small minded little picture stuff. Besides being valid that you can’t get on the podium at candidate meetings if you don’t stand in the first place, the green party did ask for closer electoral cooperation and got rebuffed for their efforts.

                      So what’s the plan pu? You going to keep slinging mud at the greens because they’re not the party of flakes and pot suckers you fell in love with all those years ago? Or are you going to get stuck in, contribute to the discussion and help build the policy platform and shape the direction the opposition needs to become government in 2017?

                    • alwyn …
                      12 October 2014 at 2:42 pm

                      “..go talk to nz first..
                      ..their supporters only have one choice..”

                      What are you claiming here Phil?
                      You appear to be saying that New Zealand First candidates stood ONLY for List places and there were no electorate candidates.
                      In fact New Zealand First had a total of 32 candidates of whom 29 stood for electorates and 31 were on the list. There were only 3, including Winnie, who did not stand for an electorate.
                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candidates_in_the_New_Zealand_general_election_2014_by_party#New_Zealand_First

                    • mikesh …
                      12 October 2014 at 4:56 pm

                      NZ First didn’t field a candidate in Ohariu but at the “meet the candidates meeting” I attended NZ First was represented by the Wellington Central candidate, Hugh Barr.

                    • phillip ure …
                      12 October 2014 at 5:55 pm

                      my bad..

                      ..the general argument against constituency-candidates stands tho’..

                • left for deadshark …
                  12 October 2014 at 11:21 am

                  Good point PU,I fail to understand how this could keep happening,may we have more intellectual grunt within the so called progressive block,PLEASE.

              • BM …
                12 October 2014 at 9:24 am

                I wouldn’t like to have a Farage here in NZ, but I can see why he’d appeal to many people.

                If Winston was 20 -25 years younger he would have made a great Farage.

      • phillip ure 4.1.3
        12 October 2014 at 8:58 am

        i mean..do/run the checklist..!

        ..labour want to mine/drill etc..(they are environment-vandals..they are part of our problem..look at their fucken record last time..)

        ..labour promise to do sweet fuck all about the dire poverty/misery..(at least half-induced/fostered by them..)

        ..apart from some fiddling around the edges..

        ..economically..you can barely slide a cigarette-paper between national and labour policies..both are designed to maintain the status quo..however fucked/environmentally-dirty/poverty-sustaining it may be..)

        ..and now they are tripping over themselves to rush us into yet another long-war..

        ..far far away on the other side of the planet..

        ..(and of course labour took us into afghanistan..didn’t that work out well..?..)

        ..neo-lib labour is as what neo-lib labour does..

        • Murray Rawshark 4.1.3.1
          12 October 2014 at 7:40 pm

          Yet you want the Greens to step aside for neoliberal Labour. It makes as much sense to claim that Labour should disband and let Greens and Mana capture the opposition votes. Actually, probably more.

    • mickysavage 4.2
      12 October 2014 at 8:27 am

      Thanks Ad. You might think about making this into a guest post.

    • just saying 4.3
      12 October 2014 at 12:49 pm

      They can also burn people out,..

      Three community things of the kind you describe, I’ve blown off just this weekend. And I’ve just come in from sitting in the sun doing absolutely nothing because my neighbour started his petrol hedge cutter on his side of the hedge just where I was leaning aginst it. We usually do it together. A really good neighbour, but not subtle with the hints.

      Anyway, you’re right, this is exactly what we are left with now, our own communities. But building up the momentum, getting people on board and keeping on going is sometimes tiring and depressing, so it’s lucky there are those ‘energiser bunny’ types around being irrepressible and generally amazing.

      Just saying really. When it works it’s all worth it, and the fact is, for most of us, where we are and the people around that place are our richest and most indispensible resource for dealing with the problems of the immediate future, let alone how things might be a decade from now. Sounds like it’s going really well at Waitati, I’ve long been impressed by what you people have achieved.

      A succession of national governments have thrown whole communities to the wolves, not all of them National with a capital N. We have to stop imagining they give a shit and get on with it.

    • Colonial Rawshark 4.4
      12 October 2014 at 10:19 pm

      But communitarian clusters can work. They can build up new leaders. They can find a scope for change and grasp it and make it happen.

      They can also burn people out, and are no substitute for national governments. But I think this is where we are now. Politically, we are really starting again.

      I would say that many of the members of the Andersons Bay-Peninsula Branch of the Labour Party (Dunedin South) have this sensibility. In my view, it is the only way that Labour has a chance of getting out of the Thorndon Bubble and reconnecting with the 1.2M who did not vote.

      The Labour Party in Australia, UK and NZ refuse to ‘just say the fucking truth’: about climate change, about resource depletion, about post-peak oil, about oligarchy. And in every one of those countries, the relevance of the Labour Party is declining.

      I should add that participation in national politics also burns people out. Badly.

  5. joe90 5
    12 October 2014 at 9:01 am

    Paul Buchanan calls Key on his warmongering.

    .

    International security expert Paul Buchanan said the claims were “absurd”. “He’s building a case for war. He’s pulled the beheading imagery out for what I think are spurious purposes.”

    Buchanan accused Key of misrepresenting New Zealand’s role in joining the coalition against Isis – although he conceded it was impossible to discount a threat. “There’s no evidence that because you fight against Isis the method of retribution is beheading on the streets of Auckland.”

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11341133

    • halfcrown 5.1
      12 October 2014 at 9:37 am

      I have just watched that dick on Q&A interview Key. He would not be a journalists arseole, Just let Key burble on at full throttle. No probing questions like,”you did not say you was thinking of engaging NZ troops before the election” or, “do you think it would put NZ at risk for being a target for terrorism if we engaged our troops ”

      Good on Paul Buchanan for questioning the spivs warmongering because no one else will especially the media.

      • Paul 5.1.1
        12 October 2014 at 9:42 am

        The media in NZ Is owned.

      • phillip ure 5.1.2
        12 October 2014 at 9:53 am

        i understand that after parkyns’ second interview..(of ‘petal’ barry..)

        ..a medical-crew had to be called in to remove parkyns’ lips from barrys’ arse..

        • halfcrown 5.1.2.1
          12 October 2014 at 6:08 pm

          Phillip ure@5.1.2 said

          “i understand that after parkyns’ second interview..(of ‘petal’ barry..)

          ..a medical-crew had to be called in to remove parkyns’ lips from barrys’ arse..”

          I have just seen this Phillip. Larf, I pissed myself “petal barry” that name will stick

      • vto 5.1.3
        12 October 2014 at 10:10 am

        It must be remembered that all announcements from John Key in this regard cannot now be regarded as anything but full blown propaganda.

        Nothing that Key says here can be believed.

        Nothing.

      • left for deadshark 5.1.4
        12 October 2014 at 12:04 pm

        I think I could do that job,J Key referred to,the problem of my ten o’clock tea break,an the dilemma of staying on job for the only aircraft of the day,coming in at,yes you quest it ten o’clock.what an idiot .

        • phillip ure 5.1.4.1
          12 October 2014 at 6:58 pm

          “..what an idiot …”

          ..no..he thinks we are all idiots..

          ..i can’t believe how he can just serially lie..

          ..and the corporate media just shrug their shoulders..

          ..and never call him on it..

          f.f.s..!..if i was calling/predicting that if victorious that key wd have us in this latest american warl a.s.a.p..

          ..couldn’t those corporate-media clowns see that too..?

          ..or did they believe key pre-election when he said he wouldn’t be taking us into another war in the middle east..?

          ..silly them..!..eh..?..will they never learn…?

          (and i think keys’ first post-election whopper was his saying that act had not asked for a ministerial position..

          ..and the dweeb from act saying that yes..he did ask for a ministry..

          ..anyone got any earlier post-election ones..?..)

  6. Paul 6
    12 October 2014 at 9:26 am

    Bernard Hickey advocates the Livkng Wage.
    Pity 30% of NZers only care about themselves. The selfish who worry about CGT and the price of their rental properties.
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11341049

  7. Draco T Bastard 7
    12 October 2014 at 9:31 am

    Economists Dissing Economics

    We move from more or less plausible but really arbitrary assumptions, to elegantly demonstrated but irrelevant conclusions.

    ― Wassily Leontief

    To one of those arbitrary assumptions:

    Rationality has become a loaded word in economics, bringing with it the baggage of earlier models that did not anticipate the findings of behavioral economics or take into account other every-day observations. The traditional rationality model includes the assumption that rational behavior is optimizing behavior (“rational economic man maximizes his utility”). In the 1970s an extreme version of this made the further assumption that rational economic actors have “perfect information.” A slightly more modest version says that people will collect information until the perceived costs of acquiring additional information exceed the perceived benefits.

    The big problem I have with modern economics is that, as studied in schools and universities, it doesn’t have a purpose. It seems to exist only to make a few people richer. We, as a community, need to change this and state what we want our economy to achieve.

  8. phillip ure 8
    12 October 2014 at 9:42 am

    “..5 Lies About Marijuana That Won’t Die Easy..

    ..We must shred the myths that underwrite prohibition..”

    http://www.alternet.org/drugs/5-lies-about-marijuana-wont-die-easy

  9. boldsirbrian 9
    12 October 2014 at 9:52 am

    .
    The Fairfax report today Fears of terror in our own backyard is a prompt to remind ourselves of an inherent bias in Western media, that often infers that the Muslim religion is a problem

    The following link is essential viewing: Media Matters for America – Reza Aslan calls out the media for generalization and bigotry when reporting on Muslims.

    Reza points out that “Muslim Countries” are not a problem. But repressive regimes in Muslim countries, and in Christian countries, and in Buddhist countries, (and in any country) certainly are.

    Mr. Botany (B.)

  10. Penny Bright 10
    12 October 2014 at 10:15 am

    It’s been a rather hectic week.

    I’ll be back to provide the facts and evidence which will prove how it is Auckland Council CEO Stephen Town who is making ‘wild and inaccurate’ allegations against me, as I continue to expose how Auckland Council is a ‘Supercity’ for the corporate 1%.

    Which is why they’re attempting to neck stamp me as an anti-corruption whistle-blower by trying to sell my freehold home because of unpaid rates which I have withheld, because ratepayers and citizens are not being given the ‘devilish detail’ of where exactly rates monies are being spent.

    Penny Bright

    • les 10.1
      12 October 2014 at 10:33 am

      you are an inspiration Penny…best wishes…the Council and its ‘commercial sensitivities is the biggest gravy train in the country.

    • Skinny 10.2
      12 October 2014 at 11:10 am

      Penny let us know if you need donations to save your home. You done us a huge favour taking down bent Bankie. We owe you for ya good work!

  11. Richard RAWSHARK 11
    12 October 2014 at 10:32 am

    Boldsirbrian,

    I have sat by and watched lies and manipulations galore since my first awareness of the cold war, the hype and propaganda never stops, pulled by god knows what human being who’s compass has been corrupted.

    It creates conspiracies and you wonder when you here these wild theorists and their conspiracies of army supplies, oil, world domination, Skulls and bones, Bilderberg groups etc and what the heck is real, what’s just plain old stupidity. What is a fabricated conspiracy, what is actually going on.

    But Governments like the USA spread so many mistruths , a man can’t find out the truth if it was slapped in his face with a title saying” This is the real truth”.

    The thing that drives my depression is the fact that it’s never ending with no way to stop or even change it’s course. I despair at my insignificance to say HEY. WTF! Stop it.

    Thanks media, thanks for believing every statement issued by your elected governments without question or investigation. Thanks once again a hole fucking lot.

    • boldsirbrian 11.1
      12 October 2014 at 1:36 pm

      .
      @ Richard Rawshark (11)

      Is there a reason why my user name is imbedded in your comment?

      Mr. Botany (B.)

  12. Draco T Bastard 12
    12 October 2014 at 10:44 am

    Labour should have spurned Dotcom’s party — Little

    Andrew Little says voters wanted “greater clarity” about Labour’s potential coalition partners and the party should have clearly spurned Internet-Mana

    Labour did and even worked with National to ensure that Hone wouldn’t get back in to TTT.

    They didn’t like the idea of a very wealthy individual writing out a massive cheque, funding a campaign that was really about his self-interest and a bunch of other people signing up to it,

    Except that wasn’t what it was about and Little continuing to spread that lie doesn’t help.

    Oh, and the CCCP party, which has a leader doing exactly that, seems to be getting quite a bit of support.

    • phillip ure 12.1
      12 October 2014 at 10:54 am

      little is a rightwinger..

      ..he was the head of the most rightwing union in the country..

      ..the right in labour are really spoilt for choice in this leadership race..

      ..rarely has a voting bloc been more split..

      ..and are they all standing..?

      ..that whole right bloc..?

      • Skinny 12.1.1
        12 October 2014 at 11:17 am

        Cut it out Phil calling Little rightwing. Your brain is too fogged up, go have a cold shower and soap your mouth out while ya at it.

        • phillip ure 12.1.1.1
          12 October 2014 at 11:39 am

          @ skinny..

          ..show me his/any progressive-creds..

          ..all he has harked on about is labour ‘appealing to the centre’..

          ..just more of the same-old/same-old neo-lib bullshit..

          ..maybe you need to clear yr brain of delusions..eh..?

          • Skinny 12.1.1.1.1
            12 October 2014 at 1:51 pm

            Well Little listens to the people for starters, working people that is and he has the sense to come clean on crap policy’s like the raising of the retirement age which was a dead duck policy, as was the CGT. Property investment is a sacred cow since too many people got burned investing in the sharemarket.

            Labour & the Greens just aren’t Left enough and unfortunately Mana’s leader is too off putting to many Maori & non Maori, it’s not like they attracted the 3/4 million non voter bloc.

            What MMP needs to be successful is the dropping of the threshold down to 2 percent and scrapping electorate MP’s completely and empowering local body politics by electing one councilor to represent to parliament.

            • Colonial Rawshark 12.1.1.1.1.1
              12 October 2014 at 2:17 pm

              I believe the campaign should be halve wasted votes, halve the MMP threshold to 2.5%.

            • phillip ure 12.1.1.1.1.2
              12 October 2014 at 4:05 pm

              so..skinny..

              ..this is the question andrew little slid past..(answering the questions all around it..)

              “..phillip ure 20
              12 October 2014 at 3:19 pm

              cd u plse detail the specific poverty-busting policies/ideas you wd support..?

              ..thank you…”

              but he’s not a neo-lib/rightwing/fuck-the-poor ratbag…eh..?

            • Rodel 12.1.1.1.1.3
              12 October 2014 at 7:11 pm

              Yep Cunliffe and Little- Formidable leaders together.

      • Te Reo Putake 12.1.2
        12 October 2014 at 11:21 am

        Bollocks, Phil. The EPMU has moved to the left in recent years, particularly in Little’s time. We’ll see during the election campaign where he stands politically, but I’m picking he is to the left of all the other candidates. Not that the others are right wing anyway. Some tend to the centre, but that doesn’t make them right wing per se.

        • phillip ure 12.1.2.1
          12 October 2014 at 11:34 am

          “..Not that the others are right wing anyway. ..”

          ..yeah..right..

          ..and labour hasn’t been in the thrall of neo-lib/fuck-the-poor policies for the last three decades..eh..?

          ..a thrall they are yet to shed..

          • BM 12.1.2.1.1
            12 October 2014 at 11:41 am

            More to politics than poor people.

            The current system works well for the vast majority of people, it ain’t changing any time soon.

        • Draco T Bastard 12.1.2.2
          12 October 2014 at 12:22 pm

          Some tend to the centre, but that doesn’t make them right wing per se.

          It does when the ‘centre’ is radical right-wing.

          • Te Reo Putake 12.1.2.2.1
            12 October 2014 at 1:51 pm

            I know what you mean, Draco, but the centre is still the centre. While the perceived normal has swung toward the right, left and right are still the political poles. Being on the right of the LP does not necessarily mean right wing in the wider political spectrum. Part of the reason that the me me me meme dominates at the moment is because of political ignorance. Perpetuating that ignorance by misplacing individuals and their beliefs is not helpful. The centre is the centre.

            In the fifties, sixties and seventies, it could be argued that the consensus was skewed to the left. These things change and this current alignment will not last forever.

            • Draco T Bastard 12.1.2.2.1.1
              12 October 2014 at 2:00 pm

              In the fifties, sixties and seventies, it could be argued that the consensus was skewed to the left.

              When the world was more prosperous.

              While the perceived normal has swung toward the right, left and right are still the political poles.

              Actually, they’re pretty much meaningless dribble now as the Left wing hold to the same economic orthodoxy as the RWNJs. Even in the 1950s/60s the Left were all about protecting capitalism from capitalism rather than bringing about a social and economic shift away from that failed system.

              The real problem is that we don’t have an economic system but a financial system pretending to be an economic system and both Left and Right hold to it religiously.

              • Colonial Rawshark …
                12 October 2014 at 2:01 pm

                The real problem is that we don’t have an economic system but a financial system pretending to be an economic system and both Left and Right hold to it religiously.

                Yep +100. A debt based financial and monetary system pretending to be an economy.

              • Murray Rawshark …
                12 October 2014 at 9:28 pm

                Spot on, Draco. A financial system pretending.

          • TheContrarian 12.1.2.2.2
            12 October 2014 at 3:42 pm

            “radical right-wing.”

            Jesus you’re full of shit Draco. Radical right wing? fucks sake…

            Pinochet was radical right…NZ has nothing like that. You fucking muppet

            • Draco T Bastard 12.1.2.2.2.1
              12 October 2014 at 4:28 pm

              Just because we don’t have any death squads here doesn’t mean that we’re not radical right-wing.

              You’re the fucking muppet.

              • higherstandard …
                12 October 2014 at 6:41 pm

                ha ha ha …..radical right wing you’re battier than Trav.

                • One Anonymous Bloke …
                  12 October 2014 at 6:49 pm

                  No right to collective bargaining or smoko – radical right wing.
                  For-profit education – radical right wing.
                  Criminal negligence on the environment – radical right wing.
                  “Ratfuckers” – radical right wing.
                  Ubiquitous mass surveillance – totalitarian too.

                  Death squads are hardly a “radical” idea – right wing, the result of cretinhood and malice, by all means, but radical?

        • Mark 12.1.2.3
          12 October 2014 at 11:22 pm

          For fucks sake. Anyone who truly understands what “left” and “right ” means knows that no one in Labour even comes close to being left wing. Havn’t for nearly 30 years. The true left wingers in the Labour Party left in the 80s and have never gone back.

    • marty mars 12.2
      12 October 2014 at 11:29 am

      “Labour did and even worked with National to ensure that Hone wouldn’t get back in to TTT.”

      Yep – in some ways the dour, gray faced leadership choices they have now is a just reward for them – eenie, meanie, oh fuck it these stooges are all moe.

      • Te Reo Putake 12.2.1
        12 October 2014 at 1:58 pm

        It’s funny how that line about Nat/Lab cooperation keeps getting repeated despite the total lack of evidence for it.

        Just out of interest, how much do you think Hone contributed to the loss of TTT? 10%, 20%? Maybe more? To paraphrase an earlier comment, Hone was doomed the moment he signed up with KDC. He ceded control of the campaign and it cost him and mana dearly. There’s the problem, right there. A fatal strategic error, months before the campaign really got underway.

        • marty mars 12.2.1.1
          12 October 2014 at 2:10 pm

          Sure Hone gets to take the blame for the result – how much of it? Quite a lot I think but I also believe the coalition of the anti-Hone/anti-Mana, comprising all those that backed kd, including labour, NZF, the maori party and the gnats, contributed too. I think that if KDC hadn’t come along that coalition would still have formed and maybe even achieved the same result. I’m really of the opinion that getting Hone and Mana out of parliament was the biggest win for the right on a night of big wins and a goal they had well before IMP was conceived and/or formed.

        • wekarawshark 12.2.1.2
          12 October 2014 at 2:18 pm

          AFAIK both Harawira and IMP’s vote increased in TTT compared to 2011. So when you ask what % of Labour winning TTT is Hawawira’s fault, I’m perplexed. Do you mean that he should have forseen Labour, National, NZF and Mp all taking deliberate action to keep him out of parliament?

          I’m not suggesting that those parties worked together in the way you imply. They didn’t have to. The opportunity arose for them all independently to take actions that worked in concert on a common target. No conspiracy, just a bunch of arseholes playing the power game to suit themselves.

          Can’t expect much else from the other 3, but Labour should be ashamed of themselves. And don’t give me that crap about how Mana/IMP should have approached Labour earlier in the year to try and do a deal, unless you have some (any) evidence that Labour would have been willing (all the evidence to date suggests they wouldn’t).

          • Te Reo Putake 12.2.1.2.1
            12 October 2014 at 2:37 pm

            “So when you ask what % of Labour winning TTT is Hawawira’s fault, I’m perplexed”

            Yep, that’s pretty reflective of the blinkered reading some folk have of what happened in TTT, weka. To repeat myself, Hone lost the moment he shook KDC’s hand. Nobody in Labour made him do it. So, seriously, how much do you think Hone contributed to his own downfall?

            “Do you mean that he should have forseen Labour, National, NZF and Mp all taking deliberate action to keep him out of parliament? ”

            You mean like having an election? Standing candidates? That sort of thing? Yeah, I’m pretty sure Hone knew he wouldn’t be running unopposed.

            As for a deal, it was up to Hone to make the approach. If he wanted something from Labour, he had to start the process and present a case for the deal. If you don’t ask, you don’t get. Bargaining 101.

            • blue leopard 12.2.1.2.1.1
              12 October 2014 at 3:18 pm

              @ TRP

              I am starting to view Labour’s stance toward Mana as reflective of the blinkered reading some folk in New Zealand have toward the serious issues of marginalization and loss of social mobility that comes with the increasing wealth disparity that is occurring in our society and which Mana speaks up strongly about.

              Act gets parliamentary representation despite getting less than half of the votes that IMP got, whereas IMP ends up with no representation at all.

              This difference is not solely due to Harawira’s choice to join with KDC and no matter how many times the ‘blame it on KDC factor’ is repeated, won’t make it the sole cause of what occurred in TTT.

              Is what occurred in TTT solely IMP’s loss? Or the left wing’s too?

              Could Labour have been in government by now had they taken a more inclusive approach toward all potential support parties?

              Could the Left have been in government by now had they responded to the cheap-shit corporate spin being broadcast throughout this country all year by countering it, rather than running with it?

              How many people didn’t vote IMP out of fear that Hone may not win the seat?

              How many of these people shifted their vote to another leftwing party and how many of them ended up not voting at all?

              Blaming it all on ‘the KDC factor’ bypasses these [above] types of important questions that need to be answered if the leftwing in this country want to sharpen up their act and gain power.

              I suggest to you that responding to someone by implying they are blinkered is just the type of attitude that gets the left going nowhere – and fast.

              • Te Reo Putake …
                12 October 2014 at 4:49 pm

                I’m not blaming on the KDC factor, I’m blaming it on Hone. He made at least two poor strategic decisions; not trying to get an understanding from Labour in TTT was one, KDC was the other. He had options, and chose the wrong ones. KDC, however, was the killer, something that Dotcom himself recognised immediately post election.

                Anyhoo, mana are history now. I wonder if Laila will get a book out of it?

                • Colonial Rawshark …
                  12 October 2014 at 5:08 pm

                  Don’t be so quick to write the last chapter while the story is still unfolding, mate.

                • marty mars …
                  12 October 2014 at 5:44 pm

                  “not trying to get an understanding from Labour in TTT was one”

                  lol – that was a labour mistake and look where it has got them – another 3 years in opposition, disarray in the leadership, distrust from the public, ridicule across the board and still the unbelievable ability from some, who support the Party, to even understand why it all happened.

                  Mana hasn’t died and it will rise again, stronger – but labour? Oh deary me I think the slippery slope is too steep and too slippery for those folk.

                  • greywarshark …
                    12 October 2014 at 6:06 pm

                    @marty mars
                    Well said.

                  • Te Reo Putake …
                    12 October 2014 at 7:00 pm

                    Ho ho ho. Labour are still in parliament. We are still the leading opposition party and will lead the next progressive government whenever it is formed. Mana? First step to a future would be admitting the mistakes made in the campaign.

                    • marty mars …
                      12 October 2014 at 7:15 pm

                      Yeah labour are real power-brokers 🙂

                      Yep a few mistakes indeed – luckily Mana as a new movement with the knowledge that it takes time to build, time to grow and time to learn from mistakes.

                      but you can’t really say that about labour can you – I mean the same mistakes made over and over again is the definition of what again?

                      Mana didn’t lose the election for the left – how about dealing with that cold hard fact.

                    • Te Reo Putake …
                      12 October 2014 at 7:55 pm

                      Actually, marty, I think it is arguable that mana did cost the left the election. KDC dominated the airwaves to the point where LP, Greens and even NZF policy barely got a mention. And the right played on the possibility of Labour needing to do a deal with mana to generate a negative vibe around the alternative government.

                      Anyway, it won’t be an issue at the next election.

                    • marty mars …
                      12 October 2014 at 8:28 pm

                      Well that is definitely a line – that Mana cost the left the election. I don’t agree because I think that minimises labour and their ability to electioneer – I just don’t think they are as useless as that (but perhaps the result puts paid to my generosity of spirit). Responsibility must rest on labour – they have the history, the people, the leadership of the opposition – Mana and KDC supplied plenty of opportunity and labour squandered it, mainly imo due to lack of courage, lack of vision and lack of left wing cred – the electorate didn’t/doesn’t trust labour and its leaders and I am sad about that, they’d rather slimeball key and that must stick in the throat like a chicken bone.

                      get over it mate – rebuild your party just as we will rebuild the Mana Movement.

                    • Te Reo Putake …
                      12 October 2014 at 8:38 pm

                      “Well that is definitely a line – that Mana cost the left the election.”

                      You may very well believe that, marty, but I’ll stick to it being arguable. Anyhoo, good luck with the rebuilding. Have a chat to Laila about how the Alliance rebuilt itself … oh, wait.

                    • marty mars …
                      12 October 2014 at 8:46 pm

                      yeah all those alliance supporters and workers, politicians and hanger-ons just dissipated into thin air never to be seen or heard from again…

                      I will wish you good luck with your rebuild too but could be a humpty dumpty situation and the wall was quite high.

                    • Te Reo Putake …
                      12 October 2014 at 9:01 pm

                      Fair call. We’ve all got a long way to go, I guess.

                    • Mark …
                      12 October 2014 at 11:31 pm

                      Not in your lifetime. Labour are terminal in so many ways. Look at the candidates for leader. Four white middle class, middle aged men. Now thats really going to appeal to the average kiwi voter.

                • Clemgeopin …
                  12 October 2014 at 8:17 pm

                  The MISTAKE was of Labour by not supporting Hone and IMP in TT.
                  Kelvin Davies did have a fairly high place, 18th, on the list. There was absolutely no need to go all out to win the electorate. Labour should have simply asked for the party vote instead of trying to unseat Hone. This is MMP, not FFP. Labour needs to work smarter on their election winning plans, at least in crucial electorates.

                  As I said, Labour made a very stupid ego-driven strategic mistake, won the battle and lost the election war. How dumb is that! Idiots!

                  • Te Reo Putake …
                    12 October 2014 at 8:30 pm

                    Electorates are FPP. Hone came second because he simply wasn’t popular enough. He didn’t get enough votes. The people of Te Tai Tokerau had a democratic choice and they chose Labour’s candidate.

                    And if was so obvious what Labour had to do, why didn’t Hone say something? Laila? KDC? You know why? Because Hone’s strategy was to get into parliament and vote issue by issue. He wanted to be on the cross benches. That was a clear message to Labour. Ok, when Laila got involved, she started talking a bit more sense of how things might look post election. But again, no approach to Labour. How dumb is that? As you say, Idiots!

                    btw, Labour’s strategy was a winner. 6 out of 7 maori seats says the LP got that strategy pretty much perfect.

                    • phillip ure …
                      12 October 2014 at 9:57 pm

                      labour only got those seats because maori party/mana split the vote..

                      ..you really are the one for selecting facts to fit yr story..

                      ..and labour tanking cost the progressive bloc the election victory..

                      ..have you not been able to work out/accept that yet..?

                      ..(you blame mana for labour tanking from 35% to 25%..?..you really are seriously in denial..)

                      ..yeah..’Labour’s strategy was a winner.’..eh..?

                      ..you’d probably be on yr own claiming that..eh..?

                  • Murray Rawshark …
                    12 October 2014 at 9:50 pm

                    I’m convinced that Labour see Mana as a more dangerous opposition to them than NAct. Mana is always going to be there, pointing out how Labour policies hurt the poor, the environment, and race relations. They show people that Labour is not what it pretends to be. Labour do not like this at all, and will do what they can to keep posing as representatives of the workers.

                    TRP’s glee at seeing Labour getting six of the Maori seats but remaining in opposition just convinces me more.

                    • Colonial Rawshark …
                      12 October 2014 at 9:53 pm

                      BOOOOOM!

                      In the same way the most vociferous enemies of the Occupy Movement were not Republicans – but Democrats, who did not want to be shown up for the upper middle class big corporate leaning party that they really are.

              • phillip ure …
                12 October 2014 at 5:20 pm

                @ blue leopard..

                ..+ 1..and then some..

              • Marksman33 …
                12 October 2014 at 7:22 pm

                Well said BL. These things need to be said.

            • wekarawshark 12.2.1.2.1.2
              12 October 2014 at 3:33 pm

              Sorry TRP but that’s bad faith commenting.

              “Yep, that’s pretty reflective of the blinkered reading some folk have of what happened in TTT, weka. To repeat myself, Hone lost the moment he shook KDC’s hand. Nobody in Labour made him do it. So, seriously, how much do you think Hone contributed to his own downfall?”

              I’m not blinkered, I understand the argument about KDC’s toxicity well enough. I’m asking you to explain the mechanism, given his and the party vote INCREASED. All you’ve done is repeat what you said before, which is your assertion that it’s all Harawira’s fault, but you haven’t said HOW.


              “Do you mean that he should have forseen Labour, National, NZF and Mp all taking deliberate action to keep him out of parliament? ”

              You mean like having an election? Standing candidates? That sort of thing? Yeah, I’m pretty sure Hone knew he wouldn’t be running unopposed.

              Don’t be a dick, you know that’s not what I meant.

              “As for a deal, it was up to Hone to make the approach. If he wanted something from Labour, he had to start the process and present a case for the deal. If you don’t ask, you don’t get. Bargaining 101.”

              blah blah blah, heard it all before and it still’s just a line. Until you put up some kind of evidence, or even theory, that Labour were open to such a thing and how it might have worked, it’s just more Hone bashing.

              • Te Reo Putake …
                12 October 2014 at 4:46 pm

                Sorry, weka, but if you can’t get past the basics of electoral politics, then nothing I say will make a difference. SFW that Hone’s vote went up! It didn’t go up by enough. And if you can’t even except that Hone might be somewhat to blame, then you really do operate in a world of your own. 98.5% of voters who made a choice, rejected Mana/Imp. Hone chose that platform. He ran on it. He lost on it. He’s got to take the responsibility.

                When NZF dipped out in 2008, Winston didn’t sulk. He organised.

                • weka …
                  12 October 2014 at 5:32 pm

                  Of course Harawira has responsibility on this. Stop putting words in my mouth. You’re just reducing a complex situation down to a very convenient slogan: KDC evil, Harawira fucked up. And that takes into account none of the issues that need to be understood by the left other than Labour will cut off its nose to spite its face and everyone else be damned. Still no explanation from you on either of the points I raised, so yep, Hone bashing.

                  • Te Reo Putake …
                    12 October 2014 at 6:36 pm

                    No Hone bashing here. Just simple logic. He made mistakes, he got punished electorally. At some point, I hope the penny drops for you.

                • Colonial Rawshark …
                  12 October 2014 at 5:34 pm

                  Neither Hone or KDC have been “sulking” – that’s a pretty unfair characterisation.

                  As for giving out lessons on taking responsibility – perhaps it’s the Labour Party front bench who need a few.

                  98.5% of voters who made a choice, rejected Mana/Imp.

                  5 out of 6 Kiwis of voting age rejected Labour. Not sure what moral high ground you think you are standing on, but it’s not that high.

                  • Chooky Shark Smile …
                    12 October 2014 at 5:55 pm

                    @ CR…..yes this is why Labour must get back to grassroots membership democracy …otherwise it is just an oligarchy of middle class careerists.

                    ..and not only former Labour voters, but also potential new Labour voters, know this is a contradiction in Labour values and what Labour is supposed to stand for .

                    My own son, a new blue collar worker , was going to vote Labour but changed his mind after what he saw Labour doing to undercut and defeat Hone and Internet /Mana! ( blue collar workers are not stupid and they listen to the radio and the likes of Willie Jackson )

                    • Clemgeopin …
                      12 October 2014 at 8:36 pm

                      My own son, a new blue collar worker , was going to vote Labour but changed his mind after what he saw Labour doing to undercut and defeat Hone and Internet /Mana!

                      I did that too!…and for the same reason. As I am not in TT, gave my electorate vote to Labour and party vote to IMP.

                      P.S : U sure, u ain’t ma mum? 😀

                    • Chooky Shark Smile …
                      12 October 2014 at 8:48 pm

                      @Clemgeopin…no I am NOT your Mother!…my son gave both votes to the Greens

                      ( Plunket the radio hack right winger put my son off Dotcom…and he was put off Winnie for the same reasons as being put off Labour ie the ganging up on Hone and Int/Mana in TT Electorate)…dont know if you follow that logic but it makes sense in a roundabout way)

                      …however i gave my local vote to local Green and after much thought because i thought they needed it the most …my Party vote to Int/MANA.

                      ..and I am still peeved about my vote for Int/Mana NOT being counted (thankyou Kelvin Davis!…and the other bastards who ganged up on Hone !…who is a true man of the tangata whenua…”people of the land”)

                      ….and thanks for losing the bloody Election for the Left …you will be remembered

                  • Te Reo Putake …
                    12 October 2014 at 6:38 pm

                    Sorry, CV, but Hone has been sulking. Though he’s not alone. Look at weka’s efforts today FFS! Time to move on, Hone gambled and lost. Mana are now in the same dusty attic as Social Credit and the Alliance because of mana’s own failings.

                • phillip ure …
                  12 October 2014 at 5:36 pm

                  hone does have some responsibility..yes..

                  ..but not the bullshit you are spinning..

                  ..int/mana as a concept was a sound idea..

                  ..it fell in the execution..for a variety of reasons..

                  ..and part of that must be down to labour going hellbent to kneecap harawira..

                  (and funny story..!..has anyone else noticed how labour..(the neighbourhood bully?) ..talk about harawira/mana the way they spoke of the greens for so long..?..

                  ..ignorant fucken fools..that they are..just repeating the same mistakes..over and over again..

                  .and meanwhile the right laugh their way into power..)

                  ..and that trp celebrates/sneers at the defeat of harawira/mana..(whose mp’s wd have supported cunliffe/labour..(!)

                  ..couldn’t be more symptomatic of all that is wrong with labour..

                  ..(and hones’ responsibilities..?..i wasn’t on the inside of the campaign..but from out here i feel he did a totally crap job of selling mana polices..

                  ..and that he kinda vanished after his car accident didn’t help..

                  ..basically..harre carried the campaign from that day on..

                  ..but the original internet/mana idea/concept was a sound one..

                  ..it totally failed in the execution of that concept..and the campaign seemed to be a strategy-free/wrong zone..)

                  • Chooky Shark Smile …
                    12 October 2014 at 5:39 pm

                    +100% …weka @ Colonial Rawshark and philip ure…

                    just to let you know there is someone out there reading what you say and agreeing whole-heartedly

                    imo Labour ‘s strategy was insular and short sighted and unbecoming , especially in regards to Hone and Int/MANA …and it cost them the Election of of a Left wing coalition govt …( amongst other reasons )

                    • Colonial Rawshark …
                      12 October 2014 at 5:50 pm

                      Throughout the election Labour was gearing its messaging to the top 20% “middle classes”. It should be pretty obvious how well that went.

                    • phillip ure …
                      12 October 2014 at 6:01 pm

                      @ colonial..

                      “..It should be pretty obvious how well that went..”

                      try telling them that..

                      ..the constant bleats from most leadership candidates that ‘labour must move to the centre’..

                      ..just proves they have learnt absolutely fucken nothing from their defeat..

                  • Te Reo Putake …
                    12 October 2014 at 6:55 pm

                    Yeah, no sneering here, Phil. Cold, hards facts is all.

                • Shrubbery …
                  12 October 2014 at 9:06 pm

                  I think really that the New Zealand public should take responsibility for their monumental stupidity, more than anyone involved with Internet Mana not named Jevan Goulter

    • phillip ure 12.3
      12 October 2014 at 11:42 am

      @ draco..

      “…They didn’t like the idea of a very wealthy individual writing out a massive cheque, funding a campaign that was really about his self-interest and a bunch of other people signing up to it..”

      isn’t that the definition/story of gibbs and act..?

    • Anne 12.4
      12 October 2014 at 12:24 pm

      Except that wasn’t what it was about and Little continuing to spread that lie doesn’t help.

      I thought Little was repeating what the voters were thinking and to paraphrase… they went for the line that Dotcom tried to influence the outcome of the election by writing out big cheques. I would add to that they also fell for the line that Dotcom is a dangerous criminal. From my experiences prior to the election that is exactly what the majority of voters were thinking.

    • ankerawshark 12.5
      12 October 2014 at 1:00 pm

      Yes can’t believe Little is saying Labour should have been clearer about IMP.

      They were 100% clear about that and that was clearly communicated.

      • blue leopard 12.5.1
        12 October 2014 at 1:21 pm

        +1

        I just don’t ‘get’ Labour’s aim to marginalize IMP – in particular Mana.

        It seems to me, (and from personal experience) that the Mana Party is the party easiest to raise interest in voting from a section of the people who don’t make a habit of voting i.e. the most disenfranchised people in the country. Not only the most disenfranchised, though, also the most cynical ‘voting makes no difference’ types.

        Having Labour marginalize Mana effectively neutralizes the ability to motivate people to vote (via Mana) and the perception that ‘we will never be listened to’ ends up sticking.

        In fact, I am beginning to develop the perception that those people in the most difficult conditions in this country will continue to be marginalized and this perception is growing in me because of the way Labour continues to bad mouth Mana and effectively marginalize the people they represent.

        Let’s face it, some people are never going to vote for a party as mainstream as Labour and I would like to see Labour being far more supportive of parties that may bring in the votes of those who are the most marginalized in this country, not marginalize them further.

        • Colonial Rawshark 12.5.1.1
          12 October 2014 at 1:51 pm

          The purpose of Labour is to squeeze the life out of any truly left wing political party. (Not my original thought, but puts things in sharp perspective).

          • Draco T Bastard 12.5.1.1.1
            12 October 2014 at 2:01 pm

            That does seem to be their main purpose now. It certainly doesn’t appear to be about doing what’s right for NZ and the world.

            • Colonial Rawshark 12.5.1.1.1.1
              12 October 2014 at 2:05 pm

              Where is the fucking perspective is my question. The age of liquid fossil fuels is mostly over in the next 25 years: i.e. in less than one generation. Climate change effects will be critical within 50 years i.e. in less than 2 generations.

              We are running a world where todays 10 year olds are guaranteed to be seriously screwed.

          • blue leopard 12.5.1.1.2
            12 October 2014 at 2:15 pm

            @ C R (& DTB)

            I have a personal ‘policy’ of being slow to agree with cynical critiques – however in this instance I have been pretty patient.

            Having bided my time and observed, it is starting to look that way with Labour.

            My preference was to view them at having appalling strategy, yet even this excuse is starting to seem weak.

            Over the last few weeks, at some stage, someone was recounting how Labour had squeezed the Alliance out of existence too (wish I could find that comment) – that comment certainly influenced my view on this matter.

        • Clemgeopin 12.5.1.2
          12 October 2014 at 7:19 pm

          +100

          Mana is the most socialist of all parties as it works for the interests of the poorest of the poor, and the low income marginalised people. Michael Savage had said that Labour believes in socialism as it is applied Christianity. Mana comes close to that aspiration in its housing and poverty policies.

          Labour was scared of National’s attacks and sheepishly, unfairly, stupidly and cowardly shunned Internet-Mana. Fools!

          I Hope this stupidity of Labour will not continue.

          • Clemgeopin 12.5.1.2.1
            12 October 2014 at 7:51 pm

            Had Labour supported IMP, they would have had 3 to 5 MPs and Today, we would most probably have had a Labour led coalition with a progressive government in place in NZ and Key would have been somewhere over in Hawaii. A missed opportunity for all.

    • Shrubbery 12.6
      12 October 2014 at 5:20 pm

      Oh right, so Little is just like all those other idiot wannabe Labour leaders getting in on the hate-on-Mana bandwagon. Is there anyone in Labour that actually wants to cultivate the left?

    • Murray Rawshark 12.7
      12 October 2014 at 9:24 pm

      That just confirms my opinion of Little as a class collaborator, moving to the right at full steam ahead. It would be better for unions to sponsor members through Law School if they need lawyers, rather than getting student union bureaucrats.

  13. Richard RAWSHARK 13
    12 October 2014 at 10:51 am

    News flash ” English has new idea for solving poverty”

    Tommorow English announces the reason for poverty is the poor, After careful analysis of the statistics he can say for sure the blame lays squarely with the poor and if their was less of them their would be less poverty.

    John Armstrong agreed and has called for David Cunliffe’s resignation for not thinking of it first.

    National will formulate a policy chaired by previous National prime minister of every chair, Chairwoman of the century jenny Shipley to formulate a progressive policy to shift the poor off poor.

    Paula Bennet has confirmed more security at Winz offices will stop the deranged poor, coming to state their poorness, saving valuable statistic space which could be used to promote National and dish dirt on it’s enemies. Anyone who thinks criticising the governments feely, do goody policies, well may want to remember the public embarrassment I will enact upon them.

    Signs of the times.

    • cogito 13.1
      12 October 2014 at 11:34 am

      My understanding is that, since most overseas jihadists come from poor and marginalised sections of society, Key is planning to round up NZ’s poor and send them off en masse to Iraq to fight ISIS terrorists.

      Key apparently believes that the best way to fight poverty is to send the poor to fight each other. This will hopefully result not only in defeating terrorism but also in ending poverty once and for all.

      He is currently busy putting the finishing touches to this policy as he is afraid that it may appear “odd” to some people.

      • mac1 13.1.1
        12 October 2014 at 1:51 pm

        Cogito, in historical terms sending off the poor to fight one’s enemies is called recruitment into the army. Who are the bulk of the armed forces of democracies without compulsory national conscription?

        The army has always been a way ahead out of poverty, with training, steady work and income, a pension and social status, clothing, food and shelter.

        • mac1 13.1.1.1
          12 October 2014 at 1:56 pm

          The bastard thing about conscription is that the non-poor had to work pretty hard to avoid it and the attendant risk of getting shot at when conscripted- so you had deferred conscription for the middle and upper classes at university, the national guard as a safe alternative as practiced by George Bush or you had prolonged periods overseas avoiding the draft.

          There were always the gullible and the sociopathic in the middle and upper classes who wanted to go to war, for adventure, patriotism and social acceptability as well.

        • cogito 13.1.1.2
          12 October 2014 at 2:18 pm

          I know…. which was the reason for my comment! 🙂

  14. cogito 14
    12 October 2014 at 11:15 am

    From Glenn Greenwald at The Intercept:

    “CITIZENFOUR, the new film by Intercept co-founding editor Laura Poitras, premiered this evening at the New York Film Festival, and will be in theaters around the country beginning October 24. Using all first-hand, real-time footage, it chronicles the extraordinary odyssey of Edward Snowden in Hong Kong while he worked with journalists, as well the aftermath of the disclosures for the NSA whistleblower himself and for countries and governments around the world.

    The film provides the first-ever character study of Snowden and his courageous whistleblowing, contains significant new revelations about all of these events, and will undoubtedly be discussed for years to come. But one seemingly banal — yet actually quite significant — revelation from the film is worth separately highlighting: In July of this year, Snowden’s long-time girlfriend, Lindsay Mills, moved to Moscow to live with him”.

    https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/10/10/narrative-destroyed-edward-snowdens-girlfriend-lindsay-mills-moved-moscow-live/

    Certainly a film to look out for.

  15. xanthe 15
    12 October 2014 at 12:58 pm

    well andrew little just blew it pumping nat dirty politics re dotcom
    Lose him asap.

    • wekarawshark 15.1
      12 October 2014 at 1:43 pm

      where?

        • wekarawshark 15.1.1.1
          12 October 2014 at 2:10 pm

          I didn’t think it was that bad and it certainly was NOT Dirty Politics (DP isn’t being mean or undercutting political rivals publicly. It might be a fucked thing to do, but it’s not DP).

          He refused to answer Owen’s question about KDC being toxic, and instead framed the issue around many people being incomfortable about a wealthy man writing a check to influence politics to suit himself. He’s actually right about the first bit (remember how the Business Round Table anti-MMP backfired?). I don’t believe that KDC was solely motivated by his potential extradiction, but I can see that many people will believe that it’s a large part of his motivation. What is Labour supposed to do about that? Good luck btw with finding a Labour leader who will be open to building a relationship with IP or Mana.

          Having said that, it does pose some real problems for Labour. My question for Little this afternoon might be, come 2017, if IP or Mana or IMP hold seats and are the make or break for Labour forming govt, will you choose the opposition benches or choose one of those parties’ support on C and S?

          Rock and hard place.

          • Colonial Rawshark 15.1.1.1.1
            12 October 2014 at 2:56 pm

            Do you notice how National confidently partners with the most extreme and inexperienced of parties in Parliament and gets away with it?

            Hone and Laila are experienced Parliamentarians ffs. Labour needs to get over itself.

            • wekarawshark 15.1.1.1.1.1
              12 October 2014 at 3:27 pm

              yes, and it’s possible that the MPs and staffers in Labour feel too uncomfortable with IMP and thus can’t see how to work with them in ways that assauge the general public’s fears. Maybe some members too.

          • Draco T Bastard 15.1.1.1.2
            12 October 2014 at 4:30 pm

            Good luck btw with finding a Labour leader who will be open to building a relationship with IP or Mana.

            Or, in fact, anyone.

  16. Colonial Rawshark 16
    12 October 2014 at 1:21 pm

    Not great. He’s already forgotten that he needs to be talking to the membership, not to the top 20% middle class.

    • Once Was Tim 16.1
      12 October 2014 at 1:49 pm

      its worse than that. not only has that 20% muddle class been lost, but also the growing precariat – which is perhaps his (and Labour’s) worst sin of all – especially when they think they have a Divine right to continue with that Godawful expression ‘Brand Labour’. Not many on the political “left mainstream” seem to talk about the precariat these days.
      ah well – if they’re allowed to, they’ll have as their legacy being responsible for the demise of NZ Labour.

  17. Westiechick 17
    12 October 2014 at 1:26 pm

    Just caught up with the weekend Herald and see yet again they are telling Cunliffe to go away. Makes me even more determined to vote for him.

    • Chooky Shark Smile 17.1
      12 October 2014 at 9:03 pm

      +100 Westiechick.. “Makes me even more determined to vote for him” [Cunliffe]

      ( btw..i might be related to you…birds of a feather and all that)

    • Hami Shearlie 17.2
      12 October 2014 at 11:19 pm

      Me too, Westiechick!

  18. travellerev 18
    12 October 2014 at 4:20 pm

    Was the NZ Airforce training for war with Syria when the shook Auckland with their bombs on Kaipara beach in June 2014?

  19. phillip ure 19
    12 October 2014 at 6:05 pm

    laugh-out-loud moment..on tv3 news..

    ..rightwing former labour president mike williams.

    ..’parker is the front-runner’..

    ..this is a follow-up to his:..’robertson is the front-runner’..

    ..and his:..’little is the front-runner’..

    ..and of course his usual:..’cunliffe must resign!’..

    ..’pundit’ as moveable-feast..eh..?

    ..heh..!

    ..feckin’ idjit..!

    • Karen 19.1
      12 October 2014 at 7:08 pm

      Perhaps all these front runners will trip each other up and Cunliffe will win from behind.

    • Marksman33 19.2
      12 October 2014 at 7:56 pm

      Concise as ever Phil. Williams is an absolute idjit alright. And he looks evil to boot.

      • Chooky Shark Smile 19.2.1
        12 October 2014 at 9:05 pm

        …well that is the effect of having kept too much company with Hooton…it ruins your looks

  20. Ecosse_Maidy 20
    12 October 2014 at 7:16 pm

    Where would I find the figures…as to how many people who were registered to vote but didn’t in the last election?

  21. kiwisaver 21
    12 October 2014 at 7:37 pm

    Someone on another thread mentioned Michael Joseph Savage and how Labour was a christian party because those are its values, feed the poor, do good to others etc.
    If Labour were to reclaim those historical basics it would do a lot to pull in the average voter.
    Labours leaders need to endorse honesty, charity, even anger as in the chucking the moneychangers tables, as a weapon against the pro-rich scheming of TeamKey.
    It’s not just feed the poor, it’s also how to move away from a ‘me’ society and public good as in transport, pollution etc.
    Labour need to reclaim their differences to Nats, and can the similarities. So no to deep-sea drilling (polluting) and Kiwis to Iraq.
    Stop hunting the middle-ground and stand on core principles. And oppose Key at every turn so there’s a clear choice between them.

    • Ecosse_Maidy 21.1
      12 October 2014 at 7:50 pm

      Yes kiwi!!!!!…Couldn’t agree more..True Labour.There is too little difference..and all those people who couldn’t even be bothered to vote…did that because there isn’t any party that represents them.

    • sabine 21.2
      12 October 2014 at 8:42 pm

      yes…

      but there will be no opposition to Dear Leader

      First…..over there Mr. D. Cunliffe….and he should

      then oh there….Mr. Parker and he should….
      and then oh my Mr. Robertson and he should

      and then my oh my Mr. Little and he should…

      and did we say that Mr. Cunliffe should just spontaneously combust?

      and then after the election

      mr. whomeverhasonetheleadershipofthelabourparty should…..insert blank.

      all that rubbish waste of time, but no one to put up an opposition to Dear Leader.

      Bread and Circuses…..comrades, bread and circuses.

  22. BM 22
    12 October 2014 at 7:45 pm

    What a load of horse shit.

    If Labour followed your advice they’d be sub 20 at the next election.

    • kiwisaver 22.1
      12 October 2014 at 7:57 pm

      I assume you’re addressing me.
      I also assume you don’t vote Labour, but it intrigues me that your answer is quite vehement.
      It would be nice to know the reasons.

      • Weepus beard 22.1.1
        12 October 2014 at 8:04 pm

        Don’t bother. BM is a right wing troll trying his hardest not to get banned.

      • BM 22.1.2
        12 October 2014 at 8:30 pm

        National is popular because it listens to the voters and acts upon that.

        Labour is unpopular because it doesn’t listen to the voter but instead thinks the voter is stupid and tries to force upon them what Labour perceives to be right and truthful.

        What Labour thinks is good is irrelevant, it’s what the voter thinks is good is what is important, National gets that, Labour does not.

        That’s why Labour is failing.

        • Chooky Shark Smile 22.1.2.1
          12 October 2014 at 9:17 pm

          BM…you and Nactional and Slater and Hooton are full of hot steaming ….. …. !

          You can fool some of the people some of the time ( this time maybe with the help of DIRTY TRICKS and DIRTY POLITICS and Tony Abbott…the mad monk waving the plastic sword)

          …but you can’t fool ALL of the people ALL of the TIME !

          NEXT TIME!!!

        • Draco T Bastard 22.1.2.2
          12 October 2014 at 9:30 pm

          National is popular because it listens to the voters and acts upon that.

          No they don’t. They don’t even give an impression of listening to the people. Our assets got sold against what the people wanted.

          What Labour thinks is good is irrelevant, it’s what the voter thinks is good is what is important, National gets that, Labour does not.

          National exploits peoples gullibility and greed to get what they want which is a) bad for our country and b) bad for the majority of people voting National. There’s nothing to proud of when National are scamming the entire country.

    • Ecosse_Maidy 22.2
      12 October 2014 at 8:13 pm

      Well, BM….I cant afford horse shit due to cutbacks, so your horse shit will just have to do. I would rather be True to Labours principles which have been lost in the melee of lets mimic National or those that get confused with Greens/Labour/Tartan.We need to get back to core values, and engage and electrify those that didn’t t Vote Labour for whatever reason, yet dislike National…And engage those feelings and passions .Then at the next election we wont be worried about your sub figures as a majority will suffice…, regardless of the leader.Then I may be able to afford more of your selfie horse shit.