Open mike 14/02/2022

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, February 14th, 2022 - 42 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:


Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

42 comments on “Open mike 14/02/2022 ”

  • Comments are now closed

  1. weka 1
    14 February 2022 at 7:10 am

    Please use the dedicated post for discussion about the anti-mandate Convoy protest rather than Open Mike.

    https://thestandard.org.nz/convoy-protest-day-seven/

  2. observer 2
    14 February 2022 at 8:15 am

    This is quite a long read, but it is a real eye-opener. In England and Wales there are still prisoners serving "indefinite sentences", for relatively minor crimes. It was introduced by Blair's Labour, and later removed, but the consequences live on. Suffering totally out of proportion to the original offences. Shameful, and not well known, even in the UK.

    https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/families-plea-over-barbaric-indefinite-prison-sentences-for-minor-crimes/

    • lprent 2.1
      14 February 2022 at 10:29 am

      This is the cost of stupid legislation. I am surprised that hasn't been knocked out with the UK HRA

      The 3 strikes legislation had exactly the same issue here. See Fitzgerald v R [2021] NZSC 131

      Andrew Geddis and Sarah Jocelyn described the case as

      Fitzgerald involved an appeal against the application of New Zealand’s “three strikes law”, which apparently mandated that repeat serious violent or sexual offenders receive mandatory maximum prison sentences for their “third strike” offence. Mr Fitzgerald’s third strike involved a low-level indecent assault (kissing a woman on the cheek) that would normally (having reference to his personal circumstances and offending history) receive a prison sentence of a few months at most. However, the three strikes sentencing provision required that, “[d]espite any other enactment”, the High Court “must sentence [Mr Fitzgerald] to the maximum term of imprisonment prescribed” for the offence, being a term of seven years. In light of both the relatively minor offending involved and Mr Fitzgerald’s extensive mental health challenges, this sentence was deemed to be “so disproportionately severe as to breach s 9 of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act 1990.” (Fitzgerald, at [3]). Notably, the Crown did not dispute this conclusion, instead arguing that the seven-year term still must be imposed as the relevant provision clearly conveyed Parliament’s intention that the maximum sentence apply in each and every third strike case.

      The Supreme court decided that this violated s6 of the NZBORA with some pretty strong language.

      The majority did not then accept that a New Zealand Parliament could ever have intended to “impose sentences that are so grossly disproportionate that they shock the national conscience and breach s 9 of the Bill of Rights”. (Fitzgerald, at [123], [128]-[130] per Winkelmann CJ; [203] per O’Regan and Arnold JJ; [247] per Glazebrook J). Had Parliament really wanted to create so severe a consequence, it would need to use much more explicit statutory language to achieve its end. The Fitzgerald majority therefore held that the relevant third strike sentencing provision could be read in conjunction with section 9 of NZBORA as an available meaning under section 6, effectively changing it to say:

      “Despite any other enactment (but not including the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act 1990) … the High Court must sentence [Mr Fitzgerald] to the maximum term of imprisonment prescribed … but must not do so if this would result in disproportionately severe punishment under s 9 of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act.” (Fitzgerald, at [323] per William Young J (emphasis in the original)).

      This was exactly the type of problem expected with 3 Strikes, and only a malevolent arsehole could expect that someone with mental health issues stealing a kiss while not in his right mind should result a seven year sentence.

      Personally, I’d like to take any person supporting that and force them to get their mental health checked. They are obviously crazy.

      • Craig H 2.1.1
        14 February 2022 at 12:28 pm

        Agree, looks like they took a useful concept ('Imprisonment for public protection' (IPP) is essentially the same as our preventive detention), but then set the bar to qualify far too low and also made it too hard to get parole ('license' to use their legal term).

        I think there's room for a nuanced approach for serious recidivist offenders, and Parliament, the NZ courts and the Parole Board have done reasonably well in this sphere, but if a law lecturer wanted a textbook example outside the USA of stupid outcomes from overly-strict sentencing and poor application, this English effort (and our 3 strikes law) would be excellent.

  3. Ad 3
    14 February 2022 at 8:46 am

    Interesting to see Minister of Finance Robertson actively considering further support for the hospitality industry, following the letter from Auckland Central MP Chloe Swarbrick.

    Maybe Robertson is just having a Nordmemeyer Black Budget moment and figures he has to chug further taxpayer dollars down the throats of the beer barons to stop their howling.

    For the most part our hospitality industry is built on the tourism industry.

    "Prior to March 2020, international tourism was New Zealand’s largest foreign exchange earner, and with the year ending 2019, the 3.8 million international visitors added $17 billion into our economy. That was 20.1 per cent of all New Zealand’s foreign earnings. The industry’s value to the economy was bigger than agriculture and similar to the financial services industry, growing at a considerable pace for many years and projected to grow further. Then in March 2020, COVID hit. Our borders were and remain closed to international tourists."

    New Zealand Needs International Tourism Back ASAP | Scoop News

    Yet here we are in February 2022 in our third year of crisis, and we have a spectacularly growing economy, historic unemployment lows, productivity increases, wage increases, and other economic sectors are performing, and retraining is absorbing, all those who used to be employed in the hospitality sector.

    We haven't needed the great majority of the tourism industry at all.

    The ordinary suburban bar is going the way of the ordinary suburban dairy, and the downtown bars will come back in a limited form to meet the existing background demand level.

    No need to do more Minister.

    • Graeme 3.1
      14 February 2022 at 10:32 am

      I’m waiting for a hospo leader to call for the return of lockdowns, well wage subsidy and resurgence payments anyway.

      • Ad 3.1.1
        14 February 2022 at 12:22 pm

        Graeme my chops at hospitality do not in any way reflect on dedicated people like yourself who made businesses out of high-creativity high-productivity businesses like high end landscape painting. Nothing but kindness and respect to you.

        • Graeme 3.1.1.1
          14 February 2022 at 8:13 pm

          Just as much creativity in a kitchen, and pressure. Perfection, now, and every time.

          Surprisingly that end of hospo is looking like surviving but in a trimmed back form. The outfits that make 2c on a glass of beer, not so much. The bar game is cut throat here, a couple of cents on a beer net, works ok when the punters are streaming through, but when it stop, 'hello Mr Receiver' Happens every downturn, and some new ones come along every cycle and it repeats. This one could be quite entertaining.

          On a more positive note there's plenty in the industry who are looking to the future and thinking about what that may entail. What was Fiordland Travel, then went through a succession of rebrands to now become Real NZ has shrunk it'self back to live with mainly the domestic market. Recovery won't be quick, easy or uniform.

          “What the lack of international visitors has really shown us is we have to make New Zealand available for New Zealanders first, and then share it with the world.”

          https://crux.org.nz/community/stephen-england-hall-how-covid-will-change-nz-tourism-forever/

      • Craig H 3.1.2
        14 February 2022 at 12:32 pm

        The industry has discovered (as Australia did) that there is very little government appetite for large scale monetary support for businesses when there is no lockdown, and meanwhile, people don't go out much when there is a raging pandemic, regardless of government lockdowns or otherwise.

        • Shanreagh 3.1.2.1
          14 February 2022 at 2:47 pm

          meanwhile, people don't go out much when there is a raging pandemic, regardless of government lockdowns or otherwise.

          very true Craig H.. It was coming back reassured by not having to have a side of Covid with your meal ie having vaccinated servers etc but I think Omicron has put paid to that for a while.

  4. Blazer 4
    14 February 2022 at 9:43 am

    U.S really has its hands full these days…Russia over there,China,Iran,Nth Korea…

    Reacting to China's soft loan programme …..

    US to reopen Solomon Islands embassy amid moves to counter China | News | Al Jazeera

  5. Ad 5
    14 February 2022 at 9:44 am

    Finally the trucking lobby has the temerity to challenge government's great Kiwirail cash suck-hole.

    Report lays down the facts – road trumps rail – Transporting NZ

    Once Fonterra kills off coal-fired boilers, you may as well shut the Ohai-Invercargill line, shut the Westport-Christchurch line, in fact put a question mark over the South Island network.

    New Zealand probably makes more money just converting the lot of them to cycleways anyway.

    • Blazer 5.1
      14 February 2022 at 9:56 am

      Wow and who is responsible for that 'impartial' report?

      The trucking companies have had lobbyists working overtime on politicians for decades.

      Very generous donors to both the Natz and Labour.

      Efficient coastal shipping and rail would help ease road congestion and wear ,and freight costs.

      I'm guessing you probably work for…Mainfreight.

      • Ad 5.1.1
        14 February 2022 at 12:30 pm

        Our coastal shipping is so efficient that it is shrinking every year, and they are gouging its customers. Why Fonterra doesn't buy its own ships?

        I've dedicated years to two major rail projects, and I'm pretty satisfied with their results.

    • weka 5.2
      14 February 2022 at 10:00 am

      Once Fonterra kills off coal-fired boilers, you may as well shut the Ohai-Invercargill line, shut the Westport-Christchurch line, in fact put a question mark over the South Island network.

      New Zealand probably makes more money just converting the lot of them to cycleways

      Well at least we know that you think the issues is about making money, rather than say climate action.

      • Ad 5.2.1
        14 February 2022 at 12:20 pm

        Kiwirail's big ingredient is coal. As an SOE they are required to be profitable.

        You should do the Otago Rail Trail.

        • weka 5.2.1.1
          14 February 2022 at 12:22 pm

          Pulling up the CO rail lines was criminal. The bike track is fine, no reason why we can't have both.

          Kiwirail's big ingredient is coal. As an SOE they are required to be profitable.

          Yes, neoliberalism is a block to climate action.

          • Ad 5.2.1.1.1
            14 February 2022 at 12:27 pm

            Not sure why it was a crime.

            If the removal of coal kills off the non-trunk parts of Kiwirail, it's no bad thing. We don't use semaphore now either.

            The Otago rail line failed first because the Roxborough fruit growers who used to use it chose trucking instead. The Wairoa line which NZF saved was helped by local customers banding together.

            • McFlock 5.2.1.1.1.1
              14 February 2022 at 12:38 pm

              CO rail line was killed off while the tourist boom was happening. How does that work? Privatisation and mismanagement, and minimal capital expenditure.

              The removal of the hundred mile limit was a major factor, but rail to central otago could have serviced the tourism industry nicely, as a midlevel between the planes and the buses.

              • Ad …
                14 February 2022 at 2:39 pm

                They had a dedicated tourism rail line from Dunedin to Middlemarch.

                It was nice while it lasted, but COVID has pushed it the way of movie theatres, DVD rental shops, corner dairies, midbrow restaurants, and travel agents.

                This is the new world.

                • McFlock …
                  14 February 2022 at 3:37 pm

                  Yeah – but who wants to end up in Middlemarch?

                  Although it'll probably reopen in a year or two – lots of pressure on the council to keep that one on life support.

                  Train to Kingston and Earnslaw as a start to your q'town holiday… That could work. If the line existed. So all a bit moot, I guess.

                  • Ad …
                    14 February 2022 at 3:47 pm

                    There was never a train to Queenstown or its airport, Wanaka or its airport, so moot for tourism indeed it is.

                    The Kingston-Garston excursion is a lot of fun, as was the Dunedin-Middlemarch, Dunedin-Karitane, and Christchurch-Westport ones.

                    Just another part of the world we've lost.

                    • McFlock …
                      14 February 2022 at 3:51 pm

                      It did go to kingston, though, didn't it? Or was that always a random line in the middle of nowhere that never actually got a connection to the rest of the network?

                      edit: fair call, my geography might be well off. In my defense, I only lived in the area as a kid, not as a cartographer 🙂

                    • aj …
                      14 February 2022 at 6:44 pm

                      It did go to kingston, though, didn't it?

                      Invercargill to Kingston. Entirely pulled out from Branxholme (just north of Invercargill) to Fairlight. (not Garston)

                    • Graeme …
                      14 February 2022 at 8:22 pm

                      The rail went to Kingston because Invercargill and Dunedin were competing to get the gold business and money. Invercargill got rail to Kingston long before rail got into Central. Dunedin hasn't got over it.

            • weka 5.2.1.1.1.2
              14 February 2022 at 3:38 pm

              Not sure why it was a crime.

              We knew about climate change at the time.

              • Ad …
                14 February 2022 at 3:50 pm

                To claim that pulling up central Otago rail lines was bad for climate change you would need some facts.

                The useful thing about the trucking lobby report is that it points a questioning finger at a sacred cow: rail.

                The same debate is going to be had about light rail in Auckland. Sure, plenty of forecast benefits. But there's a lot you can do that's faster and with greater network advantages with $14b.

                • Poission …
                  14 February 2022 at 3:55 pm

                  For 14 b you could put solar on every house in NZ,with enough leftover for network up grades and smart switch on/off connections.

                • weka …
                  14 February 2022 at 4:00 pm

                  the argument we are having hinges on whether you believe that climate action can be meaningful via green BAU, or whether you believe it can only be meaningful at this point via the Powerdown.

                  So industry bods can produce all sorts of research and reports on options, but if they're not centering worst case scenarios in that, then they're missing the point. To give a somewhat superficial example (just because I was thinking about this the other day), I remember when there was an argument about whether cloth nappies or disposable nappies were greener, and that was framed and counted in BAU terms (and thus not sustainablity).

                  You have a lot of knowledge and experience with infrastructure and business and thus a good handle of some of the transition issues. But imo you don't have a good handle on how urgent and serious the situation is, and how far behind we are. Your focus is on how to keep society stable in the transition. Mine is on how to stop ecosystem collapse. Best bet is something in between I guess.

              • aj …
                14 February 2022 at 10:43 pm

                Dunedin hasn't got over it.

                But they did get the gold money mostly, in the end. The CO Rail went all the way into the heart of gold country, Cromwell.

                "In a two month period in 1862, two gold miners called Horatio Hartley and Christopher Reilly collected 34 kilograms of gold from the Cromwell Gorge"

            • Graeme 5.2.1.1.1.3
              14 February 2022 at 8:29 pm

              The Clyde Dam extended the Central Otago rail line's life by about 20 years. A lot came up on the rail. But it was slow, 30 – 50 km/hr. Our cement was supposed to come up by rail, most ended up trucked from Dunedin because the rail couldn't keep up.

        • Blazer 5.2.1.2
          14 February 2022 at 12:32 pm

          I thought they just announced a profit of…$42million.

  6. Graeme 6
    14 February 2022 at 10:41 am

    Heads up for people on older phones who are using Rippl to scan into locations.

    Remember to sign out of the location.

    Partner got a notification on it to call Healthline. Exposure at the supermarket. Turned out it was the morning after she had been there, and the app had kept her signed in for 1059 minutes.

    All got sorted in the end but it took an hour’s fast thinking and talking.

    But the app works, just got to use it right

  7. weka 7
    14 February 2022 at 12:01 pm

    175 comments on a post by lunch time. Like the good old days 😎

  8. adam 8
    14 February 2022 at 1:42 pm

    Steven Donziger being shafted again by the corporation. Us anarchists are right – there is no law. Only rules which suit those who have all the guns.

  9. Patricia Bremner 9
    14 February 2022 at 1:49 pm

    Congratulations Ryan Fox Well played 2nd DP World victory.

    • aj 9.1
      14 February 2022 at 6:47 pm

      Pity the commentators played a little into the MIQ thing and couldn't pronounce Adern's name right, if I heard correctly.
      Although the DP Tour commentator team is totally superior than their American counterparts, and are a joy to listen too most of the time.

The server will be getting hardware changes this evening starting at 10pm NZDT.
The site will be off line for some hours.