Open mike 14/10/2014

Written By: - Date published: 6:50 am, October 14th, 2014 - 286 comments
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openmikeOpen mike is your post.

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286 comments on “Open mike 14/10/2014 ”

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  1. Herodotus 1
    14 October 2014 at 7:00 am

    Watching from afar the leadership of labour, I am taken back the column of comments to me seem to infer that the leadership will direct the direction of the party. Should not the the direction be already established and that the leader deliverers the message.
    Unfortunately the cult of personality appears to have taken over and most are looking for someone to take on and win this battle with Key. Key’s time as the nats lead is limited, and perhaps labour should be more concerned about taking control of the message instead of trying to take on key 1:1.

    • Peter 1.1
      14 October 2014 at 7:34 am

      +100 – currently Labour have no credibility

      • greywarshark 1.1.1
        14 October 2014 at 8:58 am

        @Hero-dotus
        +200 The message of the policies directed to changing NZ again, away from the dead hand of Rogernomics, private and crony-benefits, free and open markets, including for labour is what is needed.

        Labour got it all started, so determinedly, let Labour give us back a thriving country with a modern direction, following the best principles that the bureaucrats like to preach, and that would include taking note of our scientists, and professional thinkers (some professionals are just skilled at working within their own silos.)

    • Tracey 1.2
      14 October 2014 at 8:05 am

      couldnt agree more. asked this a few times since cunliffe resigned as leader. where does the party want to go and who does it want to represent, THEN find someone to drive that.

      in the LP vision they state they are progressive. prior to september 20 they openly stated nzf was preferred partner to greens…. winston is many things but progrssive isnt one of them.

    • boldsirbrian 1.3
      14 October 2014 at 8:28 am

      .
      @ Herodotus (1)

      You are correct. What you suggest should be the case.

      Mr. Botany (B.)

      • ianmac 1.3.1
        14 October 2014 at 8:44 am

        Brave Sir Brian,
        as Bold as a lion,
        take that, and that and that!

        Yes Sir Brian. Direction confirmed first. Now who will be the charismatic one to gird his battleaxe and ride forward into the battle.

    • Murray Rawshark 1.4
      14 October 2014 at 7:11 pm

      100% agree. Labour MPs seem organically incapable of that type of thinking.

      Mana is better in this respect. Hone put aside his own views on the dreaded electric puha to push a line developed by the wider movement. Labour has a tendency to do the exact opposite.

  2. Paul 2
    14 October 2014 at 7:08 am

    Good to hear the opposition actually speaking on an issue.
    Labour telling Key not to rush through new anti terror laws without evidence.

    • Chooky Shark Smile 2.1
      14 October 2014 at 8:53 am

      +100…yes Goff is very effective in this role

    • Draco T Bastard 2.2
      14 October 2014 at 10:43 am

      Hah, that’s amusing – National does everything without evidence. Or, at least, against the evidence that we’re seeing – they may have some other evidence from other sources with other goals that they’re not sharing.

  3. Ad 3
    14 October 2014 at 7:09 am

    Is Shearer New Zealand’s most graceless politician?

    Just in case we were imagining there wasn’t an active network that had been growing again Cunliffe since he stepped into Parliament, Shearer spells it all out on National Radio for us.

    Shearer did not have the fortitude to stand himself, despite clearly thinking he could, so decides to damage the process that the membership had to fight for hard. The Party is better than Shearer. And will show it.

    • Paul 3.1
      14 October 2014 at 7:13 am

      He believes in privatising war.
      How he is in a Labour Party I don’t know.
      Gibbering on about Twilight Zone…..
      Blames the Standard and people behind ‘darkened screens’….
      http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/1998/09/15/outsourcing_war

      • Ad 3.1.1
        14 October 2014 at 7:21 am

        By attacking Cunliffe so openly and at length, he is attacking all the members who supported Cunliffe throughout.

        Just in case any member or activist thought that a new era was dawning and that a new leader wasn’t going to go through the whole joint and rip and tear out every single Cunliffe supporter … just listen to the open rage on display now, and figure your future out.

        I believe the members and activists and affiliates will do exactly the reverse. Woe betide Shearer at the next list conference. And about six other names.

        We won in the constitutional changes. Now we really have to unseat them.

        • Paul 3.1.1.1
          14 October 2014 at 7:22 am

          That interview with Espiner this morning is worth a post on its own.
          So much in there.

        • phillip ure 3.1.1.2
          14 October 2014 at 7:23 am

          @ ad..

          “..We won in the constitutional changes. Now we really have to unseat them…”

          ..yes please..!

          • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 3.1.1.2.1
            14 October 2014 at 7:55 am

            Yes, I wonder how low Labour can go. With the sort of Labour Party that Ad and phillip ure want, my guess is below Mana.

            • phillip ure 3.1.1.2.1.1
              14 October 2014 at 8:07 am

              @ gormless..

              ..are you conveniently ignoring the fact that cunliffe/labour polled highest when cunliffe was talking about the kind of labour party ‘i want’..?

              ..and then plunged when told that actually ..’no..we aren’t going to do that poverty-busting stuff cunliffe talked about..(to such good response..)

              ..we are actually going to give the poorest nothing..

              ..and we are going to make you work longer/older’

              ..and cd you point out which of manas’ policies so scares you..?

              ..all manas’ policies are are what labour party policies used to be..

              ..before the party was hijacked by the rightwing..

              ..real bread and butter social democratic stuff..

              ..y’know..!..like ending poverty/feeding the hungry/housing the homeless..?..dangerous ‘lefty’-stuff like that..

              ..all those ‘scary’ mana policies..

              ..all that stuff so alien to the labour party of the last three decades..

              ..and yes..i am in/support mana..

              ..but i am also enough of a realist to know that if labour continues in lockdown by the neo-lib/rightwing..

              ..we are all fucked..and ain’t going nowhere..

            • Tracey 3.1.1.2.1.2
              14 October 2014 at 8:08 am

              and your LP is, hmmmm, National? paint the picture for us fool, this LP you thinkmof, that isnt National, what are their policies, directions and who is their leader? do tell?

              • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell …
                14 October 2014 at 8:15 am

                Here is an inconvenient fact. Labour can only become government by gaining the votes of people who presently vote National. Making Labour more like Mana is not going to cause those people to vote Labour.

                You would have thought this was self-evident.

                • Tracey …
                  14 October 2014 at 8:20 am

                  go on then, outline the policies to do that and the leader.

                  and which nat voters will you target.

                  and how, by what means

                  stating the obvious might make you feel clever but it advances nothing, especially as only a few percentage are needed from nat vote, not the lot, and better strategic mmp thinking.

                • framu …
                  14 October 2014 at 8:22 am

                  another inconvenient fact you forgot to add.

                  the core ideas and concepts behind left leaning policies are still very popular, so popular in fact that the nats keep nicking it and trying desperately to not talk about what they are really planning

                  so yes – labour does need to win back people who have switched their vote – but the answer isnt in trying to be more like national.

                  Its more to do with acting like a bunch of kids, poorly constructed and poorly delivered policies and a media witch hunt that cost them the election

                  Your confusing why people voted for a party with actual policy direction. They arent the same thing

                • Draco T Bastard …
                  14 October 2014 at 10:47 am

                  Here is an inconvenient fact. Labour can only become government by gaining the votes of people who presently vote National.

                  Nope, Labour can lead a government by helping get the third of the voters who didn’t vote to vote for the Left.

              • phillip ure …
                14 October 2014 at 8:26 am

                i think oleo wd plump for rightwing poster-boy/lusk-acolyte nash..as his/her choice for labour leader.

                ..(he who will lose napier in 2017..if mcvicar doesn’t again split the vote..

                ..so if labour can keep him far enough down the list..

                ..it’ll be ee-aww..ee-aww..as he drives off in his (rightwing bought/paid for) fire-engine election-prop..)..

                ..in 2017…

                ..and no more nash..

                ..(here’s some career advice for nash..

                ..why not go and join nz first..?

                ..yr simplistic-sloganeering and teeth will likely go down a treat there..)

        • Lindsey 3.1.1.3
          14 October 2014 at 8:28 am

          Yes, Shearer should STFU. He and his cronies have won. Now he should take his boot out of DC’s ribcage and get back to restoring the once dynamic Mt Albert electorate to something a bit more like its former glory.

        • Sanctuary 3.1.1.4
          14 October 2014 at 8:54 am

          It seems to me pretty obvious that Andrew Little will now win the leadership now that Cunliffe has pulled out. The Unions and most of the party membership will swing behind him, and I assume Little commands reasonable support in caucus. So if Little wins, where to for Robertson and the ABCs? An Andrew Little victory would be the second, calculated and explicit rejection by the unions and membership to the Labour old guard and ABCs. For the faction built around Robertson to lose twice and not accept the time has come for many of them to move on would be for it to become completely isolated from the unions, the membership and the MPs who support Little and to risk complete humiliation at selection time in 2017.

          So I guess the big question is this, would the likes of Mallard, Goff, Shearer, Cosgrove, King, and Robertson retire from politics or will they try to continue to white ant until they get their man into the top job? And by extension, should Robertson be allowed to win as he is the only man capable of keeping the dead wood in line?

          • greywarshark 3.1.1.4.1
            14 October 2014 at 10:20 am

            Sanctuary
            But is Robertson capable of keeping the dead wood in line? You seem fairly confident there. But they have a long history already of survival and effectiveness. They can keep gnawing away at the Labour tree, it struggles on and so there’s opportunity for them to keep going.

          • Tracey 3.1.1.4.2
            14 October 2014 at 11:51 am

            is robertson and abc labours version of two track politics… and they misunderstod who the enemy was

      • greywarshark 3.1.2
        14 October 2014 at 9:25 am

        @ Paul
        Shearer couldn’t keep off the media. Sounds like Dunney pontificating in a deep, sonorous voice. Talking about cohesion etc but busies himself on the media interfering in a vital process in Labour’s leadership vote supposed to make it more effective. So does Shearer want to help that, by keeping schtum and separate himself quietly. No he does not, he resigns from the process of leader-choosing, and casts himself as a hero and jabs Cunliffe again. The whole process to me is as confusing as the Schrödinger’s Cat experiment.

        Then he talks about the fault of Labour being concerned about identity politics. But I’m not sure of the identitity of these identities. Would some commentators who have a grasp of all these types of people, their ages, their gender and their work category, please list them for me! He does diss the idea that the Deputy Leader should be a woman, Maori or Pacifica. One imagines these are some of the identities. Is that right, and who else please.

        Then Brent Edwards comes on and jabs Cunliffe and mentions The Standard as vocal supporters, and we are cast somehow as causing dissension. No mention of the constant media campaign for and against apparent favourites of these objective, wise political common-tators that have embedded their feed lines into our brains to receive their opinions. Why else would people listen to these gabby talk-fests like Leighton Smith, John Tamihere, Willy Jackson, Josie Pagani et al.

        And no mention of the elephant in the room. That is the need to wrest back Labour from the smug and comfortable in the middle class. Labour was started as a workers party and also spoke for those dispossessed from the position of ‘comfortably off’ in the country for various reasons. Trying to get the long-term right wing pollies out and also their pernicious influence is bound to be bruising and difficult. And it is bound to seem odd, incoherent, chaotic and crazy to those who are happy with the status quo on the RW side. I referred recently to The Good Samaritan, who was exceptional from his class, just because he did something for an opposition group. So Labour reformers are not going to receive much credence from the comfortable in NZ, and those who live off them like fleas on a cat.
        edited

        • travellerev 3.1.2.1
          3 November 2014 at 7:10 am

          I was confused about the same thing until I saw a pattern emerge. Here is my take on the Labour Saga but also the way John Key , Ian Fletcher and Graeme Wheeler and even Russell Norman came to their august positions.

    • Kiwiri - Raided of the Last Shark 3.2
      14 October 2014 at 7:17 am

      His rubbish on Saturday and then this morning spells him out as unfit to be a member of the Labour Party or caucus, or as an MP.

    • Not a PS Shark Sashimi 3.3
      14 October 2014 at 8:32 am

      Little has sufficient cause to send Shearer to the backbenches and to publically ask him not to go for selection next time.

      New branches need to be formed in Mt Albert that are not under the thumb of Shearer and his wife Anushka. Mt Albert was the strongest LEC in NZ up to when Shearer was handed the seat on a plate by Goff. That is sadley far from the case now.

      • Anne 3.3.1
        14 October 2014 at 9:22 am

        Mt Albert was the strongest LEC in NZ up to when Shearer was handed the seat on a plate by Goff.

        I can attest to that. I was one of a group of young activists who built up the Mt Albert Labour Party in the 1970s and 80s and Helen Clark’s suppporters continued the good work when we moved on to other places. In August of last year I attended a memorial service for the Labour incumbent prior to Helen (Warren Freer) who had also been an old friend of my deceased father. I was taken aback to find myself on the receiving end of “unfriendly glares” from David Shearer. He apparently knew who I was and appeared unhappy about my presence. It Ieft me feeling embarrassed and angry as I had even more right to be there than himself.

        Since reading his comments in today’s Herald the penny has dropped. Someone must have enlightened him about my support for Cunliffe. That didn’t stop me fully supporting Shearer the entire time he was leader.

        Methinks he suffers from a touch of paranoia.

        • Chooky Shark Smile 3.3.1.1
          14 October 2014 at 10:20 am

          @ Anne…”Methinks he suffers from a touch of paranoia”.

          or megalomania ?…maybe Shearer gets his sense of identity and arrogant entitlement from OUTSIDE the Labour Party?….from who and what?

          (and he does go to Hooton’s barbeques does he not?….and David Cunliffe declined)

    • Ant 3.4
      14 October 2014 at 8:45 am

      Shearer is a dick, another reason I’m glad for the Māori roll—I don’t have to swallow a dead rat and vote for him.

      • DoublePlus Good 3.4.1
        14 October 2014 at 11:13 am

        No rat swallowing for me in 2011 – I voted for David Clendon. Much better choice of David.

    • Chooky Shark Smile 3.5
      14 October 2014 at 9:04 am

      Ad +100 …these MPs seem to go to radionz to do their damage and spin things for themselves

      ……Shearer said that Cunliffe undermined both him and Goff ( NO!)

      …..Shearer also mentioned Left wing blogs ( well those political observers of Shearer debated and reported what they saw on the Left blogs…but the debates were free and open ended ( unlike the msm) …and sadly they were stating the obvious

      the fact of the matter is that it was patently obvious to every new Zealander and especially Labour Party voters ( who dont read left wing blogs and who incidentally originally supported Shearer) that he was hopelessly inexperienced and inarticulate as leader!)

      Methinks Shearer is feeling guilty for the bullying and undermining of David Cunliffe by caucus

      …so now Shearer, with the airing of radionz , is leading the attack on Left wing blogs for debate and stating the obvious

      …perhaps Left wing blogs with their open debate are now being perceived as a threat

      • Draco T Bastard 3.5.1
        14 October 2014 at 10:58 am

        perhaps Left wing blogs with their open debate are now being perceived as a threat

        Authoritarian leader types don’t like anything outside of their control.

    • blue leopard 3.6
      14 October 2014 at 12:32 pm

      What a pity certain MPs in Labour didn’t channel their competitiveness and aggression toward challenging the political parties/political views they were elected in to vie with.

      It.Is.Not.That.Hard.To.Know.What.Your.Role.Is,Is.It?

  4. Barfly 4
    14 October 2014 at 7:16 am

    What a damned weasel !!

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11341984

    Shearer seems …oh fuck it what is the point?

    • Paul 4.1
      14 October 2014 at 7:20 am

      You sound like one of those nasty Standard people he was complaining about on Morning Report today!
      He clearly has a strong agenda….move to the centre, big party that appeals to everyone….
      Everyone?
      Power at all costs then.
      Like Tony Blair.
      Oh dear.

      • Ad 4.1.1
        14 October 2014 at 7:22 am

        Shearer had his chance. Time for Shearer to shut up.

        Or do his job and hold the government to account.

        • Paul 4.1.1.1
          14 October 2014 at 7:26 am

          If Shearer and his ilk gain control of the Labour Party, then neoliberalism is locked into this country.
          As was planned by the establishment. Shearer and the right wing cabal in the Labour caucus are just as important to the powers that run NZ as Key and his group.
          They need Tweedlede and Tweedledum parties.

          The TPPA will further lock down the settings for them.

          • phillip ure 4.1.1.1.1
            14 October 2014 at 7:59 am

            “..Shearer and the right wing cabal in the Labour caucus are just as important to the powers that run NZ as Key and his group..”

            + 1..

          • Tracey 4.1.1.1.2
            14 October 2014 at 8:09 am

            and the worry is that many on the right championed shearer for leader, now boag and key have endorsed little…. curiouser and curiouser

        • Kiwiri - Raided of the Last Shark 4.1.1.2
          14 October 2014 at 7:35 am

          Shearer has worked hard, again and again, to remove any doubt that he has the ability to do his job as a leader or caucus colleague. Time for him to shut up and move out.

          Labour Party members can lodge complaints with Council about him bringing the Party into disrepute: clause 387 (b), NZLP Constitution 2014.

        • Paul 4.1.1.3
          14 October 2014 at 7:42 am

          Was joking!

    • Kiwiri - Raided of the Last Shark 4.2
      14 October 2014 at 7:21 am

      That piece should have read:

      “Labour MP David Shearer has ruled out trying to get his old job back but has sent a blunt message to [himself] to get out of Parliament altogether, saying as long as he was there he would be a lightning rod for speculation over the leadership [and caucus division, as well as his own IQ].

    • BM 4.3
      14 October 2014 at 7:33 am

      I guess he’s still a bit annoyed with Cunliffe for undermining him when he was leader.

      • Kiwiri - Raided of the Last Shark 4.3.1
        14 October 2014 at 7:50 am

        oh really, link?

        • BM 4.3.1.1
          14 October 2014 at 8:12 am

          You don’t remember the Minister of Pornography calling him a huhu grub as well as young Richie Cunningham giving him a public serve after that Labour conference a few years back.

          • framu 4.3.1.1.1
            14 October 2014 at 8:27 am

            what?

            i do hope your not talking about the “gower coup”

          • phillip ure 4.3.1.1.2
            14 October 2014 at 8:56 am

            @ bm..

            “..young Richie Cunningham..”

            ..i do like that reference for ‘chippy’…

            ..but too ‘glowing’..

            ..i have him more as that kid who stands behind the bully going:..

            ..’go on..!..hit him..!’..

      • Tracey 4.3.2
        14 October 2014 at 8:11 am

        yea, damned democracy aye BM. not like nats where if you have money you can pay for people to join so they can vote for you…

    • David H 4.4
      14 October 2014 at 3:04 pm

      Notice no comments after that load of Drivel from Shearer The Herald would crash at the indignation shown at Shearers Treachery.

    • Murray Rawshark 4.5
      14 October 2014 at 7:30 pm

      Shearer seems petty and unhinged. Whose stupid idea was it to gift him a once proud electorate?

  5. phillip ure 5
    14 October 2014 at 7:28 am

    (just in case you missed it…on stuff 2day..)

    “..I gave my eight-year-old medical cannabis..

    ..As a baby Alice was having up to 30 life threatening seizures a day –

    – and her neurologist told me:

    ‘It’s like your baby’s brain is exploding –

    – take her home to die – she is too sick to live’..”

    (cont..)

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/life/10610772/I-gave-my-eight-year-old-medical-cannabis

  6. music4menz 6
    14 October 2014 at 7:33 am

    Maybe Shearer’s outburst is just a symptom of the current state of the party where no-one really trusts each other and everyone’s got their own hidden/ not so hidden agenda. If Little is elected he’s certainly got his job cut out in trying to get some discipline going in the party.

    • BM 6.1
      14 October 2014 at 7:39 am

      Little is going to be the Hatchet Man.

      Don’t think he’ll win in 2017, but he’ll certainly get Labour back on its feet again.

      • Paul 6.1.1
        14 October 2014 at 7:41 am

        BM, for once I agree with you !
        His job will be to move the deadwood to the right of the party.

      • les 6.1.2
        14 October 2014 at 7:53 am

        maybe the plan.As far as the present ego contest goes Little and Parker seem the most humble.Should Little succeed ,expect an old fashioned ‘reds under the beds’ attack from the right.What sort of impression can Little make on that 20% of floating voters?

        • BM 6.1.2.1
          14 October 2014 at 8:07 am

          What sort of impression can Little make on that 20% of floating voters?

          I don’t think that should be his main priority. Labour is in a bad way, last legs sort of stuff.

          Littles main objective should be to rebuild the party and make it a contender again so people have to be a bit more realistic about time frames.

          If everything goes to plan, 2020 would be when Labour is ready to have another crack at government.

          • Lanthanide 6.1.2.1.1
            14 October 2014 at 8:17 am

            “I don’t think that should be his main priority. Labour is in a bad way, last legs sort of stuff.”

            People would have been saying exactly the same about National in 2002 within a month of the election.

            Remember Brash didn’t parachute into the leadership role until a year later.

            • BM 6.1.2.1.1.1
              14 October 2014 at 8:24 am

              Still took till 2008 to get back in power.

              Somehow I don’t think Labour will be able to achieve the same result in a shorter time frame.

              As I wrote above, people have to except this and be a bit more realistic in their expectations.

              • Lanthanide …
                14 October 2014 at 9:13 am

                They only narrowly lost 2005.

                They won in 2008 when Labour would have been going into their 4th term. National will be attempting a 4th term in 2017.

          • les 6.1.2.1.2
            14 October 2014 at 8:20 am

            well Labour is clearly in terminal decline if thats the priority.From Clarks reign to this in 6 /7 years?Does not augur well.The Natz managed a renaissance with new blood,and a united strategy,….Labour ,with Little will be only 1/2 way there.Imagine what will happen when Winston puts his cue in the rack.

            • greywarshark 6.1.2.1.2.1
              14 October 2014 at 10:14 am

              Les are you a RW trole? You seem to have a lot of negatives about Labour but seem to enjoy that.

  7. Peter 7
    14 October 2014 at 7:36 am

    Marcus Lush 10, Paul Henry 0

    ….. a sad day

      • phillip ure 7.1.1
        14 October 2014 at 7:57 am

        @ paul..

        ..lush is losing his radio breakfast show to henry..

        • phillip ure 7.1.1.1
          14 October 2014 at 9:02 am

          lush is a great/intelligent/funny broadcaster..and i wd listen to him..

          ..but that station format is too/so stuffed with ads/promos/irrelevancies/annoyances..

          ..to be able to be listened to..

          ..i tried it once..

          ..it had me running from the room..

          ..all these people shouting commercial-imperatives at me..

          ..it was all a bit too much..

          • phillip ure 7.1.1.1.1
            14 October 2014 at 11:52 am

            gavin ellis has suggested that radio new zealand should snaffle up lush..

            ..that is a brilliant idea..

            ..lush first showed his skills on bfm…

            ..and national radio wd be a natural roost for him..

            ..and i am sure he wd enjoy being freed of/from all those commercial-imperatives/time-gobblings..

            ..and he wd deliver really quality radio..

          • David H 7.1.1.1.2
            14 October 2014 at 3:22 pm

            So thats what the dog was whinging about yesterday. I keep it on in the garage where it (Radio Live) keeps the dog company. And Garners dulcet tones were great for keeping the puppies quiet just after they were born earlier in the year.

  8. Tautoko Mangō Mata 8
    14 October 2014 at 7:41 am

    Obviously David Shearer is not interested in keeping disputes in-house.

    • Paul 8.1
      14 October 2014 at 7:44 am

      Yes, I wonder if RNZ contacted him or vice versa.

      • phillip ure 8.1.1
        14 October 2014 at 7:55 am

        @ paul..

        ..shearer has been all over the media..like a rash…

        • Not a PS Shark Sashimi 8.1.1.1
          14 October 2014 at 8:46 am

          I suspect Shearer’s activities are actually meant to be in support of Parker’s cause. Ardern’s Central Auckland team have been pumping the phones for Parker and, with their encouragement, Shearer in trying to be a player!

          This toxic spittoon was shaped by the arch Machiavellian Robertson. He and Goff put the unsuitable and inexperienced Shearer into the leadership to block Cunliffe.

          Shearer still does not get it that he was used and abused by Robertson. It was Robertson who undermined Shearer. It was Robertson who got Maryan Street to do the numbers and roll Shearer.

          This rush of blood to Shearer’s head marks the last stage of his career in the Labour Party. Good riddance.

          • phillip ure 8.1.1.1.1
            14 October 2014 at 11:03 am

            it’s kinda funny..

            ..little vs. parker…

            ..it’s like a charisma-vampire wreaked havoc in the labour caucus..

            • Murray Rawshark 8.1.1.1.1.1
              14 October 2014 at 7:40 pm

              From what I remember of the Engineers’ Class Collaboration Association, Little will go to Parker and say that making the people they represent work two more years is absolutely unacceptable. After strenuous negotiations, he’ll triumphantly announce that he got it changed to four, and half pension for Pasifika, because they have big families to support them.

              Disclaimer: this post may not be entirely serious.

        • David H 8.1.1.2
          14 October 2014 at 3:23 pm

          ..shearer has been all over the media..like a rash…

          …More like a Bad Smell…

      • framu 8.1.2
        14 October 2014 at 8:29 am

        the tone and flow of the interview had all the hallmarks of shearer going to them

        shearer wasnt trying to avoid any questions, and in fact seemed to enjoy talking at length – he would have gone longer if allowed

      • Chooky Shark Smile 8.1.3
        14 October 2014 at 9:22 am

        +100 rnz is right wing biased…increasingly i am walking away from it.

        …my daughter never listened to it…..my son doesnt listen to it at all …my partner listens to it when it suits him ….we need more radio options

  9. swordfish 9
    14 October 2014 at 7:45 am

    On TV3’s The Nation a couple of days ago, David Shearer suggested: “When I stood down (as leader) we were polling at 34%, and we ended up on 25% in the Election. That was in the space of 12 months. That is a catastrophic drop.”

    Reality

    Labour support in last 8 polls BEFORE Shearer stood down

    31.5………31.6………34.0………33.0………29.0………31.0………31.0………31.5

    Labour support in first 8 polls AFTER Shearer stood down

    32.5……..34.0……….37.7……….37.0……..37.0………33.6………34.0………35.5

    Labour Monthly Average support for Last 4 Months of Shearer Leadership

    MAY 33%……..JUNE 32%……..JULY 31%……..AUGUST 32%

    Labour Monthly Average support for First 4 Months of Cunliffe Leadership

    SEPTEMBER 35%……..OCTOBER 35%……..NOVEMBER 33%……..DECEMBER 35%

    You really have to wonder where Labour would be now if Shearer had held on to the Leadership and then come in for the relentless MSM character assassination inflicted on Cunliffe over the last 8 months. I’m picking something close to National under Bill English in 2002.

    Not to mention the wholesale slaughter in the pre-Election Leader Debates.

    • Paul 9.1
      14 October 2014 at 7:46 am

      And where they’ll go if the right wing caucus take power back.

    • Tracey 9.2
      14 October 2014 at 8:16 am

      not letting facts get in the way of his hatchet job. thanks fish.

    • ianmac 9.3
      14 October 2014 at 8:56 am

      The relentless claim from Shearer and the constant MSM refrain that Shearer was 35% and fell to Cunliffe’s 25% was simply wrong.
      Thanks swordfish.

    • Clemgeopin 9.4
      14 October 2014 at 10:52 am

      Would be good for Shearer to come over here and give his comments on these figures.

      The election loss was die to too many other factors not in control of Cunliffe. He worked very hard and very well under very difficult circumstances.

      Hope Shearer will respond here.

    • McFlock 9.5
      14 October 2014 at 3:15 pm

      actually, he’s right about that.

      Shearer announced he was standing down on 22 Aug 2013.

      In the Roy Morgan released 20 August 2013, Labour got 34%. Yes, a spike. Yes, many other issues. Yes, he and damned near everyone else who’s been tipped to be a contender is acting like a dickhead.

      But technically, he’s correct.

      BTW, it’s not like Shearer wasn’t on the receiving end of relentless character assassination, either. Nor will the next Labour Party leader be in for any less. The reason is that the tories don’t like labour, and there seems to be a tendency for those within Labour (caucus and membership) to flail about at anybody with a slightly different opinion. FFS, there’s now an alleged Labour party “branch” that uses a gmail account.

      Meh. It’s a ponderable.

      • swordfish 9.5.1
        14 October 2014 at 9:10 pm

        Two problems with this.

        (1) As the poll figures I set-out above show, that 34% was an outlier. 6 of the last 8 polls of Shearer’s leadership had Labour in the 29.0-31.6% range.

        (2) You’re talking about the last poll to be released before he announced his departure. If you’re going to narrow the focus to just the very last poll of his leadership (which isn’t something I’d recommend – far better to average out the last few), then you need to look at the last poll conducted before he announced he was stepping down.

        There are two candidates for this:

        Fairfax-Ipsos (conducted 10-15 August) Labour 31.6%
        Roy Morgan (conducted 12-25 August) Labour 31.5%

        So, no, I disagree that Shearer is technically correct

        • McFlock 9.5.1.1
          14 October 2014 at 9:18 pm

          And yet, outlier/spike even so, Labour did poll 34% just before he resigned.

          So in actual fact, he was technically correct.

          • swordfish 9.5.1.1.1
            14 October 2014 at 11:21 pm

            As above, the last two measurements of public opinion before he announced his decision to step down had Labour on 31.6% and 31.5%. Shearer can’t just cherry-pick the third-to-last one because it was better for Labour than all the surrounding polls and say this is where Labour was when I departed.

            In chronological order from 8th-to-last through to last poll before stepping down

            31.5 (conducted 17-30 June)
            31.0 (1-14 July)
            31.0 (9-14 July)
            29.0 (15-28 July)
            33.0 (27-31 July)
            34.0 (29 July-11 August)
            31.6 (10-15 August)
            31.5 (12-25 August)

            Shearer announces his intention to stand down as Labour Leader 22 August.

            It’s a total misrepresentation by Shearer and his cheerleaders to suggest Labour were sitting comfortably on 34% when he stood down (and strongly implying that this was a consistent and solid rating throughout those final weeks)

            (We both like to have the last word, don’t we McFlock)

            • McFlock 9.5.1.1.1.1
              14 October 2014 at 11:41 pm

              🙂

              The 12-25th one doesn’t count, because it includes after shearer announced his resignation.
              The fairfax could have fairly been ignored at that time, given the bias displayed in the previous election. But when was it released?

              Still, the last poll released was indeed 34%, so IMO it’s a fair statement.
              Frankly, if you think it’s the most irritating comment he’s made in the past few days, I disagree with your characterisation of the comment but respect your dedication to the importance of numbers 🙂

  10. vto 10
    14 October 2014 at 7:52 am

    David Shearer – what a babbler

    what a mumbler

    what a bumbler

    stfu Shearer.

  11. repateet 11
    14 October 2014 at 7:52 am

    The Herald online has a story about conjoint twins and has a photo of two a…holes. See the picture. It’s at the story “Hosking v Henry: Radio’s new war.”

    • les 11.1
      14 October 2014 at 7:58 am

      super right wing smug bastard versus super right wing smug bastard…looks like Jeremy might have twice as much work to do!

    • McFlock 11.2
      14 October 2014 at 3:19 pm

      lol
      I prefer that.
      I don’t listen to radio as a habit, but I do watch late might TV. Hopefully his stint at 1030pm is over, so there might be something on that I’d prefer to watch. Like paint drying on horseshit.

  12. Craig Glen Eden 12
    14 October 2014 at 7:59 am

    Unbelievable behavior from David Shearer the article that he is quoted on in the Herald today certainly brings the Party into disrepute. Who the hell does David Shearer think he is, what a destructive nasty piece of work he is. Its David Shearer that clearly needs to move on along with his nasty bunch of caucus mates.

    • Tracey 12.1
      14 October 2014 at 8:15 am

      remind me what carter did to get chucked out?

      cosgrove is uncannily quiet… has he gone on holiday now that the party he wont campaign for got him back in?

  13. dv 13
    14 October 2014 at 8:01 am

    Weird story of the day

    ISIS website shut down in Iceland had NZ address
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11341989

    ‘A suspected Islamic State website shut down by Iceland was registered to a small roadside shop in New Zealand.

    Iceland found it!!!!

    NZ and 5 eyes did not!!!!!

    Weird

    • Tracey 13.1
      14 October 2014 at 8:15 am

      shearer will be on the wireless soon suggesting cunliffe is behind ISIS

      • Chooky Shark Smile 13.1.1
        14 October 2014 at 9:28 am

        lol…Shearer is in the wrong Party …he should join Jones for barbeques at Hootons

        ….and something might be able to be worked out by John key that is more satisfactory for him

      • phillip ure 13.1.2
        14 October 2014 at 11:07 am

        personally..i also blame cunliffe for the drop in dairy prices..

      • wekarawshark 13.1.3
        14 October 2014 at 11:17 am

        We should be paying attention to this. While the left is in a dither over Labour, Key is setting up to bring in legislation that will lessen our rights and increase the power of the spooks.

        People on twitter are making jokes about the terror alert increase. We shouldn’t be so complacent. It’s classic moves to make NZ less sovereign and put more power in the hands of the few (in this case the PM and his cronies).

    • hoom 13.2
      14 October 2014 at 9:55 am

      With the help of some basic web tools the ‘small roadside shop’ is a safety deposit box in Parnell and the email address given is provided by a Canadian email company.

      So quite likely the whole thing is a front run from anywhere.

      And probably enabled by our insanely loose Shell company laws which have been an ongoing global concern due to enabling arms smuggling, money laundering & god knows what else.

    • greywarshark 13.3
      14 October 2014 at 10:06 am

      We’re are so open and friendly to anything and everything from overseas, except terrorists. But anything else dangerous to our or economy’s health is okay. WE don’t put up any defences against shonky businesses and their shell companies that cover nasty little surprises. Next thing someone will pick up a shell and find underneath a present of an ebola virus.

    • Murray Rawshark 13.4
      14 October 2014 at 7:50 pm

      Maybe 5 eyes was running it? Stranger things have happened.

  14. Lanthanide 14
    14 October 2014 at 8:22 am

    Some thoughts on Shearer’s interview:

    1. He pretty much confirmed my point that Cunliffe was stupid to run with Mahuta as a double-ticket back in 2011, when none of the other candidates were. Clearly caucus as a whole thought she didn’t deserve the role and was just there as a token Maori woman. This move seems to have cemented the existing bad faith that they held against Cunliffe. It also shows that he badly misjudged the mood of caucus to run on a double ticket like that.

    2. Shearer early on said he didn’t care what people on blogs said (meaning, The Standard) because they didn’t have any power or achieve anything. Yet this morning he specifically attacks people on The Standard as if we wield some mighty power?

    3. Shearer seems to think that it’s ok for the caucus members who don’t like the leader to constantly speak to the MSM and bleat about it, but if anyone on a blog dare suggest that the leader isn’t doing their job well, it’s the end of the world. In short, Shearer is a massive hypocrite.

    • framu 14.1
      14 October 2014 at 8:36 am

      re: number 3

      thats the bit i found really weird. I caught the dig at the standard in his interview – and my reaction was (once the swearing subsided) – “This guy doesnt see the irony of pointing the finger at the unfluence* of bloggers – while on national radio?!”

      STFU Shearer!

      im not even a labour member, and im furious at shearers continued media yapping – lord knows how those who are members feel about him continuing to not only air, but generate, dirty laundry in public

      * its a typo – but i feel like ive just invented a useful word – so im leaving it in there 🙂

    • Te Reo Putake 14.2
      14 October 2014 at 8:46 am

      Good summary, Lanthanide. Clearly, Shearer is bitter and twisted about his own failure to hold onto the leadership, despite having the majority of caucus behind him. He’s not really scared of the Standard, he’s scared of the members.

      So here’s my suggestion: if Cunliffe should quit as an MP, then so should Shearer. And Goff, obviously.

      But wait! There’s more!!! Also well past there use by date are Mallard, Cosgrove and King. Ruth Dyson has not done anything to deserve the chop, but as with King, it’s probably time to call time there too.

      If King steps down, Andrew Little will win the subsequent Rongotai by-election. Mallard should probably stay until the next election because of the risk of losing a by-election in Hutt South, but he should be given a whip’s role in the meantime just to keep him busy and full of self importance in the meantime. Shearer and Goff’s seats should go to whoever the local LEC’s think the best fresh faces are.

      Ok, it’s a slightly risky strategy, but forcing 3 by-elections, and winning them all, would be a turning point on the road to recovery.

      • Not a PS Shark Sashimi 14.2.1
        14 October 2014 at 8:52 am

        I agree with TRP 100%. I’ll lie down and have a rest now.

      • Lanthanide 14.2.2
        14 October 2014 at 9:15 am

        Pity the party can’t afford it and National would spin it as Labour wasting $1.5M of taxpayer money because they can’t keep their own house in order.

      • greywarshark 14.2.3
        14 October 2014 at 10:03 am

        That’s very bold TRP. I hope someone will take notice and consider the idea. If it stands their scrutiny I hope they’ll get behind it.

      • McFlock 14.2.4
        14 October 2014 at 3:25 pm

        Maybe a tweak to the constitution re: leadership contests: there’s also an ostracism ballot for the entire caucus (i.e. everyone includingthe new leader), kicking one MP out of parliament if a list mp and caucus if electorate? Open to membership only.

        Might add a wee bit of self-preservation instinct to some folks.

    • Tracey 14.3
      14 October 2014 at 12:06 pm

      thanks lanth. i didnt hear it.

    • ankerawshark 14.4
      14 October 2014 at 3:20 pm

      My opinion and it is just an opinion that the bad blood in Caucus goes back to when Cunliffe was Minister of Health and sacked the Hawkes Bay Health Board.

      Annette’s husband was impacted upon by this. Sorry can’t remember the details. So she is p…..ed off with DC. She is popular. DC perceived as up himself. so a group think takes over, which is the breeding ground for the ABC’s. Strenthened by the left/right split.

      This is my theory anyway.

  15. philj 15
    14 October 2014 at 8:31 am

    Are we in a police state yet? If so, at what point did it occur?
    When will Shearer, and his mates, move to National? Although it’s probably too late as their house is full.

  16. les 16
    14 October 2014 at 8:45 am

    Why does anyone really care what Shearer thinks!Hes not standing,obviously has a sour grape hangover and the public couldn’t care less either.

  17. Tautoko Mangō Mata 17
    14 October 2014 at 8:46 am

    I am thoroughly p…d off, Mr Shearer. I worked hard in my electorate for the Labour vote. You were not supported as leader because although you had a great back story, you did not have the verbal skills to match the current PM. The majority of members supported David Cunliffe in the vote when he was elected because he has the ability to think on his feet and express himself fluently. He proved to be more than a match in the electoral debates. The caucus did not but made a moderate effort to contain itself although there were leaks to the MSM (the 3 day holiday, etc.) After the election there has been a wholesale lack of discipline from some of the caucus. What would you think of a sporting team which, after losing an important match, behaved in such a manner as the Labour Party caucus? This was not the time to roll the leader. You were correct in saying that there needed to be an analysis of what went wrong first, but obviously Grant Robertson couldn’t wait. Since then, the indiscipline has been totally embarrassing and infuriating. My computer screen is not darkened, David Shearer. I use a pseudonym not to protect myself but so that my family members and the place where I am employed on a part time basis are not associated with my personal comments.

    • Karen 17.1
      14 October 2014 at 9:01 am

      +1 TMM
      I wish Meg Bates had won the selection for Mt Albert instead of Shearer. We may by now have had the Labour Party that those of us on the left wanted.

      Shearer on Morning Report this morning was a disgrace. Why is he being allowed to get away with this deluded, self-serving behaviour? Why didn’t he stand? Afraid of being the first candidate to be eliminated Mr Shearer?

    • greywarshark 17.2
      14 October 2014 at 10:00 am

      I am surprised that anyone connected with David Shearer should think that the worst thing about him was he did not have good verbal skills.

      To me, making sneering comment about a beneficiary doing maintenance on his house and implying it was likely to be part of rorting the welfare system, shows a poisoned mind to welfare. And all his supposedly humanitarian work overseas was no doubt for good salary. It is known that these aid workers/administrators get well paid and usually distort the economy of any poor and needy place they work in, getting the best quality of amenities at that place, so not sharing similar standards which the people bear.

      Seems by his attitude, he was prepared to see the same here. That’s why he was no good for a Labour leader. He was just going to be another distanced middle class aspirational type looking out first for No.1.

      • phillip ure 17.2.1
        14 October 2014 at 11:19 am

        (this may be of interest to some..i had an encounter with shearer in 2011…and i wrote it up..)

        comment@ whoar:..a look back at an encounter with david shearer..

        (ed:..i published this in august 2011..

        ..and this was pre that shirking-benificiary-on-a-hot-tin-roof meme shearer later floated..

        ..but it does bring that more into focus..

        ..and i hafta say..that walking away from him..

        ..i felt like i had been talking to a cipher/hollow-man..)

        http://whoar.co.nz/2013/comment-whoar-a-look-back-at-an-encounter-with-david-shearer/

        • greywarshark 17.2.1.1
          14 October 2014 at 3:12 pm

          I like the bit phillip when you said his eyes glazed. Too much information for him no doubt. I think a lot of these pollies like to fly by the seat of their pants, it’s how they feel that matters, the facts just get in the way.

        • Murray Rawshark 17.2.1.2
          14 October 2014 at 8:10 pm

          That was cunning, giving a link to the post that gives the actual link. Double your web traffic 🙂

          Nice story anyway. I can remember coming across Syd Jackson in a supermarket once. As a member of the Clerical Workers’ Union, I let him know some of my concerns. He was also less than interested.

  18. hoom 18
    14 October 2014 at 9:07 am

    Coincidence or careful protection of reputation of a senior business guy?

    Yesterday
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11341703

    Watercare chairman David Clarke has paid tribute to the company’s former chief executive, Mark Ford, who died earlier today after serious illness.

    Today
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11341878

    Two dams in the Hunua Ranges which supply about 20 per cent of Auckland’s water were closed for four months this year after traces of a toxic herbicide applied to nearby forestry blocks got into the dams’ supply lakes.
    …
    Auckland Council was told of the incident, but both the council and Watercare Services kept it quiet from the public until a whistleblower contacted the Herald yesterday.

    • greywarshark 18.1
      14 October 2014 at 9:52 am

      A speaker on radionz from watercare said they acted to close water down straight away and that the water supply was not contaminated. And unless he was lying I don’t think there was a case to cause general alarm over nothing.

    • Chooky Shark Smile 18.2
      14 October 2014 at 2:54 pm

      interesting!… there is a culture in New Zealand of not taking toxic herbicides (or 1080 poisoning) as seriously as they do in other countries …the Greens are an exception, although even they are brainwashed on the 1080 issue

  19. fambo 19
    14 October 2014 at 9:12 am

    Interesting email from a male friend of mine:
    “I went out for a meal after work and was sitting quite close to the till. It was really interesting hearing the conversations this young French woman server was having with people.
    In particular, just while we were there about four different guys older than you and I were trying to pick her up. One invited her on to his boat, and another asked her out on a date and was trying to hold her hand.
    You could tell this women was a friendly and warm person to everyone and these guys were just like untrained puppies. This must happen to her every night. “

    After a reply from me:
    “I guess it does – bit disturbing of course”

    He replied:

    “It must become a bit of a drag for these women – and of course, this sort of behaviour makes women naturally defensive towards all men.”

    My reply was:

    “Each man thinks is only him asking and never thinks that he is one of millions which as you say must become very exhausting for women. In places like Indonesia women are never left alone.”

    Something for guys to think about perhaps?

    • Chooky Shark Smile 19.1
      14 October 2014 at 12:20 pm

      yup …ugly is liberating and age is liberating …the young and beautiful are vulnerable

    • RedBaronCV 19.2
      14 October 2014 at 10:05 pm

      Yes, younger women in particular can receive an awful lot of this type of interaction which eventually causes a lot of them to close out all but people they know well. At some level it also means that no matter what they are trying to say, using their intelligence or other skills, all the feedback they get is through that single prism. Sometimes I wonder , if by default, they start to exclude themselves from the wider positions in society just so they get some peace.

  20. travellerev 20
    14 October 2014 at 9:17 am

    I know, I know, our governments don’t conspire with other governments and we can trust John Key to be here for us and not his corporate mates but still…
    All those things I have been saying over the years about how John Key would be limiting our freedoms, sell our assets, take us to war given half a chance are sort of happening aren’t they?

    And waddayaknow, they are happening at the same time they are happening in the other 4 countries of the five eye nations aren’t they? And they are using the exact same arguments all of a sudden out of the blue (In the same blue suits I might add)!

    ISIS blah blah blah, Syris blah blah blah, Need more security local beheadings blah blah blah. Non violent extremists are as bad as ISIS blah, blah, blah. Must fight the extremism spawning these terror groups you know people thinking 9/11 wasn’t done by a group of mad extremist Muslims blah, blah, blah. If your not with us you’re a terrorist blah, blah, blah.

    So just in case there are people here to take the next step towards understanding why this is happening now and everywhere in the Anglo Saxon world here is a link towards Architects and Engineers for 9/11 truth. I know, I know, they would never do that and our governments love us to bits but you know it can’t heard just to do a little read and maybe pick up some reality. I mean real reality not the one created for us by the MSM.

    And just in case you’re wondering, I am a very proud non-violent extremist ans I am in very good company!

    • Chooky Shark Smile 20.1
      14 October 2014 at 12:26 pm

      thanks for that …i am with you…personally i like the “dustification” theory the best…because it did look like bloody dustification….certainly not the result of an plane crashing in

  21. coaster 21
    14 October 2014 at 9:28 am

    Last week, when there were recomendations to through out bagged lettuce and carrots I rang our local new world to see if there was any compensation and what they recomended we do (we had bagged lettuce and carrots in the fridge). I was told that all there produce was safe, when I asked if it was safe to give to my kids the guy said yes it was, I through it out anyway.
    No it has come to light that it is suspected to be the exact same lettuce we had. I rang them back and have been told that at the time all the staff had been told to say that all there producè was safe nd unaffected, I asked who had told them to say this and was told it came from head office.

    so foodstuff had a strong suspicion that it was them, but still sent out that message to the shops.

    Bloody irresponsible

    • karol 21.1
      14 October 2014 at 9:58 am

      I hadn’t thought about it til Campbell Live mentioned Pam’s bagged lettuce last night. And I had just had some for dinner. Apparently it can take between hours or many days for the symptoms of the illness to appear……. counting down….

      Edit: Though I did wash it before I put it on my plate.

      • phillip ure 21.1.1
        14 October 2014 at 11:45 am

        i knew there was a good reason why i don’t like/avoid lettuce..

        ..it is the comma of the vegetable world..

        …a cringing nothing…

        • Chooky Shark Smile 21.1.1.1
          14 October 2014 at 2:58 pm

          phillip you must always eat your greens….and that includes lettuce!…(stop being such a picky eater and food faddist !)

          and if the lettuce is the “comma of the vegetable world”…David Suzuki , the environmentalist , said he is a vegetarian and eats chicken because it is a flying vegetable

  22. greywarshark 22
    14 October 2014 at 9:48 am

    Hi lprent
    Is it my computer, or has the consecutive numbering gone awry or away? A long thread soon loses any numbering and they don’t seem to go as far in the subsets as before. Is this inevitable? Can it only be fixed by choosing a more expensive option in the works?

  23. paddy 23
    14 October 2014 at 10:28 am

    Surely the three remaining candidates for leader can see that Little will win. Why submit the party to four weeks of the media painting Labour as a hopelessly divided party. Why waste time traipsing to meetings when the result is known and time could be better spent getting organized. Why spend the money on a leadership primary campaign, (anyone know if the cost is 5 or six figures??)
    Little as leader. either of the other two as Deputy and the other given a front bench position. Done and dusted today. Fighting fit for Parliament starting next week.

    • Anne 23.1
      14 October 2014 at 10:55 am

      I don’t know paddy.

      It gets Labour out into the provinces and talking to people. At this point it might be advantageous for them to see Labour in action rather than rely on the right wing negative media line they’re exposed to day in and day out…

    • Olwyn 23.2
      14 October 2014 at 11:00 am

      Better to entrench our hard-won democracy within the party’s practices than to take a convenient shortcut. We need to make it harder, not easier, for Hooton-anointed leaders to be slipped into place in the future.

    • Tracey 23.3
      14 October 2014 at 12:13 pm

      i read yesterday its expected to cost 30k

      • paddy 23.3.1
        14 October 2014 at 1:40 pm

        $30,000 of hard earned cake stall money pissed away on a beauty parade when the result is bleedin obvious. FFS. Sort it out in the next 3 hours.

        • greywarshark 23.3.1.1
          14 October 2014 at 3:16 pm

          Simple paddy.? That is the attitude that got Labour into this mess. Paying proper attention to the important matters of leadership and choice of MPs and generally running the party better.

        • ankerawshark 23.3.1.2
          14 October 2014 at 3:22 pm

          Yes but Paddy there have been 2000 new members join since the announcement of the leadership campaign (2014). That potentially covers it. BTW I think we need to try and organised with the new members.

  24. boldsirbrian 24
    14 October 2014 at 10:33 am

    I am amazed. Shearer makes significant criticisms of the effect that commentators (perhaps including myself) have made here, and there seems to be nobody willing to self reflect that he may have some legitimate complaint.

    I’m not suggesting that there should not be robust discussion defending “our place”. I’m simply surprised. I’ll go back over the last few posts. There are others that have criticised Shearer, in a manner that promotes better constructive debate or comment. (For example, mickysavage’s contribution on “Dear David Shearer”)

    I hope those comments by mickysavage (in “Dear David Shearer”)
    “the Standard has a very open policy on comments and sometimes people say things that are not very nice. Criticism is not treachery” have some truth.

    I guess I will find out in the consequences of this post, that I hope are not simply interpreted as “right wing troll” or “stfu”. I would rather they be interpreted as intended, in the spirit of Nicky Hager hoping that the standard of political debate is raised as a legacy to “Dirty Politics”

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    @ vto (10 )

    David Shearer – what a babbler. what a mumbler what a bumbler
    stfu Shearer

    Shearer says that you only have to look at some of the comments in the Standard to understand his grievances. This is a good example, I expect. No justification for a most insidious smear. Whaleoil 101.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    @ Craig Glen Eden (12)

    Unbelievable behavior from David Shearer the article that he is quoted on in the Herald today certainly brings the Party into disrepute.

    And if Shearer is bringing the Party into disrepute, where does that leave many commentators here, including myself?

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    @ Craig Glen Eden (12)

    Who the hell does David Shearer think he is, what a destructive nasty piece of work he is. Its David Shearer that clearly needs to move on along with his nasty bunch of caucus mates.

    Shearer says that you only have to look at some of the comments in the Standard to understand his grievances. This is another good example, I expect. No justification for a most insidious smear. Whaleoil 101.

    ~~~~~~~~~

    @ Tracey (13.1)

    shearer will be on the wireless soon suggesting cunliffe is behind ISIS

    Tracey joins the pack hunting Shearer, and uses another subject to attack Shearer. It’s disguised as humour. But obviously a nice thing to bite around the ankles, while the pack attacks the jugular.

    ~~~~~~~~~

    @ Lanthanide (14)
    (parts one and two)

    One of the better contributions, which is not high praise. It is clearly legitimate personal opinion. But totally in defensive mode. Not a pinch of self reflection about the role of commentators on the Standard. And unsubstantiated sledges that are more characteristic of John Key: “Cunliffe is stupid” “Clearly caucus as a whole thought she didn’t deserve the role and was just there as a token Maori woman”. And unsubstantiated assertions “Shearer early on said”

    ~~~~~~~~~

    @ Lanthanide (14)
    (The third part of the post)
    Shearer seems to think that it’s ok for the caucus members who don’t like the leader to constantly speak to the MSM and bleat about it, but if anyone on a blog dare suggest that the leader isn’t doing their job well, it’s the end of the world. In short, Shearer is a massive hypocrite.

    A hard hitting attack on Shearer ending in in an extraordinary claim that he is not just a hypocrite, but a massive hypocrite. I probably would not have added comment here, were it not for the added word “massive”. (In contrast to smears by others about Shearer, the justification for the claim is provided, and able to be debated)

    But there is no self reflection on the difference between Shearer’s comments to the media (sledged as bleats) and the critical comments on blogs. Lanthanide conveniently characterises these as “suggesting that the leader isn’t doing their job well”, for which there could be no complaint. But Lanthanide does not pause to reflect that the majority of critical comments about Shearer on blogs are basically ad hominem attacks and Whaleoil 101 smears. Shearer is actually entitled to be pissed.

    ~~~~~~

    @ Te Reo Putake (14.2)
    “totally agreed” by @ Not a PS Shark Sashimi (14.2.1)

    “Clearly, Shearer is bitter and twisted about his own failure to hold onto the leadership, despite having the majority of caucus behind him. He’s not really scared of the Standard, he’s scared of the members. ……………….. But wait! There’s more!!! Also well past there use by date are Mallard, Cosgrove and King”

    A classic critique, containing nothing but an ad hominem smear. Whaleoil 101. A post that is even supported by another commentator! This sort of comment provides Shearer, or anyone else attacked in a similar sort of way, with a legitimate complaint. For f. sake. Attack the policy; Attack anything with substance. Provide praise where it is due. Have we collectively not learnt anything from Nicky Hager, while we generously provide donations for him? Or is it always them, and not us?

    ~~~~~~~

    @ philj (15)
    Are we in a police state yet? If so, at what point did it occur?
    When will Shearer, and his mates, move to National?

    Shearer says that you only have to look at some of the comments in the Standard to understand his grievances. This is another good example, I expect. No justification for a most insidious smear. Whaleoil 101. It could be turned into a comment of significance, by providing a reference to policies that Shearer has promoted that you believe should not be in Labour.

    ~~~~~~

    @ les (16)
    Why does anyone really care what Shearer thinks! Hes not standing,obviously has a sour grape hangover and the public couldn’t care less either

    Well actually I care, as I care about what all member of the caucus think. If I was Shearer, I would be pissed about this Whaleoil 101 contribution

    ~~~~~~

    @ Tautoko Mangō Mata (17)

    You were not supported as leader because although you had a great back story, you did not have the verbal skills to match the current PM.

    Is it true to suggest that the only reason Shearer was not supported was because he did not have the verbal skills to match John Key? I do not know, and have not looked back and reviewed discussions here when Shearer was leader. Were there not criticisms, as there seem to be now that Shearer was ‘too far to the right’ etc? and simply dislike characterised by Whaleoil 101 smears?

    ~~~~~~

    [lprent: This is a site for expressing opinions for the left. We explicitly state that it is here for robust debate.

    In the case of the comments you are reflecting above, are any distortions of fact? Or are they very clearly opinions as I think. Perhaps you should show exactly which ones have statement of facts that are not valid? Because that is the requirement for any legal issues.

    You appear to looking from Where? The viewpoint of a Labour party member? Looking through your examples, I think that less than half are even members of the Labour party. Where exactly do you think you are? An LEC? Some place governed by the rules of NZLP?

    This site is designed to allow discussion amongst people from the broad labour movement. That includes unionists, the vast numbers of ex-labour members, greens, anarchists, communists, many religious movements, and even economic drys like myself. We argue, bicker, and disagree. We also say exactly what we think about politicians and their behaviour. If some politicians are too sensitive about people talking about them, then I suggest that they avoid pubs, workplaces, and blogs.

    I suspect that we have helped convince a large number of people to join or rejoin the NZLP as well as the Greens and other left parties. Why do you think that the NZLP membership is nearly triple what it was in 2011? But we have done that through open discussion not the kind of constrained narrow arselicking that you seem to want to impose.

    But be warned, you are clearly advocating a change in our policies. You can argue that. You can however not state that we should change them either directly or indirectly. That is because the only people who can do that that are those who actually author and work on the site. You are not one of them.

    They are the only people that you can really try to influence. ]

    • Lanthanide 24.1
      14 October 2014 at 11:17 am

      Not a pinch of self reflection about the role of commentators on the Standard.

      And what role is that? How wide an audience do you think The Standard, and the comments here, have? Hint: MSM like TV1 news goes into 500,000 households each weeknight”

      And unsubstantiated sledges that are more characteristic of John Key: “Cunliffe is stupid”

      It’s my personal opinion that Cunliffe was stupid to run with Mahuta as a double ticket, when:
      1. None of the other contenders did
      2. I had honestly never heard of her or knew she was an MP. You can say this says a lot about me; but I think as someone who has been interested in Labour party politics for over a decade, it says something about her and how effective she is.

      “Clearly caucus as a whole thought she didn’t deserve the role and was just there as a token Maori woman”.

      This is based on Cunliffe’s failure to win the 2011 election contest and Shearer’s comments that the best person for the job is whoever is most competent at it, not just installing someone because they are a woman or a maori.

      http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/6075286/Mahuta-dismisses-Tamiheres-comments

      And unsubstantiated assertions “Shearer early on said”

      http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10846967
      “The series of those calling for Shearer to step down included three bloggers on the Standard blog … Mr Shearer said the spate of calls consisted of “a small circle of bloggers feeding off each other and I’m surprised the media is taking it seriously. It’s nonsense.””
      And that was not the first time he’s been dismissive of The Standard, but I’m not going to bother looking for the earlier version because I have work to do.

      If we had to ‘substantiate’ every single statement we made on this blog, then not much would get written. But that doesn’t mean statements aren’t true.

      But there is no self reflection on the difference between Shearer’s comments to the media (sledged as bleats) and the critical comments on blogs.

      Again, you’re failing to distinguish the reach of blogs vs MPs talking to MSM.

      Lanthanide conveniently characterises these as “suggesting that the leader isn’t doing their job well”, for which there could be no complaint. But Lanthanide does not pause to reflect that the majority of critical comments about Shearer on blogs are basically ad hominem attacks and Whaleoil 101 smears. Shearer is actually entitled to be pissed.”

      Firstly I’m only talking about The Standard, because that’s who Shearer addressed this morning on the radio. Secondly, during his tenure as leader, I don’t believe the “majority” of comments critical of him on TS were ad hominem attacks, more they were critical appraisals of his ability to do the job. Yes, we may use “naughty” language that some disapprove of, but we’re not politicians and the language isn’t any different then you would hear in a bar on a Friday night.

      Finally, you’re using evidence of comments that were posted today, in response to Shearer’s attack on people here, as evidence that we have unfairly attacked him in the past. You’d be much better off actually looking at what was said in the past to make your judgements as to whether what Shearer said today was warranted or not.

      • Lanthanide 24.1.1
        14 October 2014 at 11:27 am

        Also I’d point out that Key gets a lot of personal attacks. Do you see him running to MSM and whinging about bloggers?

        • Pascals bookie 24.1.1.1
          14 October 2014 at 1:01 pm

          Spot on Lanth.

          This stuff from Shearer and Cosgrove is just grade a stupidity.

          There are people here, people in the party or would be supporters of it, who don’t like that crew.

          That leaves that crew with 3 options:
          1) Win them over.
          2) Ignore them because they are irrelevant.
          3) Beat them.

          They went with 3, and that is fair enough. But their strategy has been to go massive. Instead of fighting here, or somewhere similar, at the grassroots level, they went to the media. Repeatedly. It’s just stupid. Doing that doesn;t lessen the emotion on here, as can be seen. It doesn’t do anything at all except raise the Standard as being an equal player on the level of front bench MPs. That’s just fucking ridiculous.

          It makes George W Bush look like Sun fucking Tzu.

          • Anne 24.1.1.1.1
            14 October 2014 at 1:21 pm

            It looks to me like Shearer and some of his acolytes in the party as well as caucus have decided there has been a long-term coordinated campaign run by The Standard (yeah I know the Standard doesn’t have a brain so can’t run anything but the Lab technophobes don’t) to oust David Shearer.

            We don’t know one another for starters. And who is the chief co-ordinator? mickeysavage? Yep, its mild mannered mickeysavage who has a penchant for under-statement. He’s an evil Jekyll and Hide didn’t you know…

            The mind boggles with the unreality of it all.

          • lprent 24.1.1.1.2
            2 November 2014 at 11:22 pm

            They went with 3, and that is fair enough. But their strategy has been to go massive. Instead of fighting here, or somewhere similar, at the grassroots level, they went to the media. Repeatedly. It’s just stupid.

            I have been puzzled for some time. What do they expect to achieve? Where is their leverage point(s) on a ground-level. Knowing these two techno luddites they probably think that this site is being run by someone apart from me.

            Do they even understand the concept of a strategy. Or are they just making pissing in the wind?

            • Colonial Rawshark 24.1.1.1.2.1
              3 November 2014 at 12:01 am

              And David Shearer thinks he can run a country, with that strategic mind of his.

              Oh and to BoldSirBrian – it’s rather chivalrous of you to be Shearer’s bell hop on The Standard.

      • boldsirbrian 24.1.2
        15 October 2014 at 1:11 am

        @ Lanthanide (24.1)

        How wide an audience do you think The Standard, and the comments here, have? Hint: MSM like TV1 news goes into 500,000 households each weeknight”

        Influential enough for Shearer to refer to it. Heh, we cannot have it both ways. ie Refer to Dirty Politics and claim significant influence of Farrar and Slater on the right, but then somehow claim that only a few people read here.

        And it’s not just the readers here. When you look at the ever declining standards of MSM (based on fewer journalists, less time permitted, more stories required, and personal opinion quite ok) where do you think they get “public opinion”?

        If they do their job right they’ll be getting the information from a wide range of sources. But it appears to me, that too often, they will interview their own typewriters, and get sufficient sufficient “corroboration” for those thoughts from the blogs. I don’t “know” but I have a strong suspicion.

        ~~~~~

        I said:
        And unsubstantiated sledges that are more characteristic of John Key: “Cunliffe is stupid”

        You replied:
        It’s my personal opinion that Cunliffe was stupid to run with Mahuta as a double ticket, when:
        1. None of the other contenders did
        2. I had honestly never heard of her or knew she was an MP. You can say this says a lot about me; but I think as someone who has been interested in Labour party politics for over a decade, it says something about her and how effective she is.

        As soon as you point out WHY you think he was stupid, you raise your comment from an ad hominem smear, to a justified and interesting comment. That’s the distinction that is all important

        ~~~~~~~

        And unsubstantiated assertions “Shearer early on said”

        Thanks for the reference. I’m sorry the way I framed what I said. ie In the context of other criticisms. I could have simply asked for the reference.

        ~~~~~~~~~~~~

        Secondly, during his tenure as leader, I don’t believe the “majority” of comments critical of him on TS were ad hominem attacks, more they were critical appraisals of his ability to do the job. Yes, we may use “naughty” language that some disapprove of, but we’re not politicians and the language isn’t any different then you would hear in a bar on a Friday night.

        I’ll accept that the “majority” of the critical comments were not ad hominem while he was leader. I have not looked. They appear to be that way now, possibly.

        I do not think anybody, and definitely not myself have ANY problem with critical appraisals. And probably most of what you would hear in a bar on a Friday night. We do not want Sanitiser over everything.

        But I do think that we all have a responsibility to make an improvement in political debates in the post “Dirty Politics” book era. It’s when we cross the line to “Dirty”.

        And Lanthanide, I am also sorry that I included your post with the others in the list. I’ll stand by what I said, but your post was not in the category of the “Dirty” that I refer to. By lumping all the posts together there is an unintended implication that they are all of one category.

        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~

        Finally, you’re using evidence of comments that were posted today, in response to Shearer’s attack on people here, as evidence that we have unfairly attacked him in the past. You’d be much better off actually looking at what was said in the past to make your judgements as to whether what Shearer said today was warranted or not.

        Fair call

        Cheers
        Mr. Botany (B.)

        • Colonial Rawshark 24.1.2.1
          3 November 2014 at 12:02 am

          Influential enough for Shearer to refer to it. Heh, we cannot have it both ways.

          Huh? Shearer has repeatedly marginalised posters, readers and commentators on The Standard as being irrelevant and unrepresentative.

          He’s the one who is trying to have it both ways with regards to The Standard. Are we significant or are we not?

          Actually, methinks the man bitches too much.

    • Jenny Kirk 24.2
      14 October 2014 at 11:53 am

      ” Shearer makes significant criticisms of the effect that commentators (perhaps including myself) have made here, and there seems to be nobody willing to self reflect that he may have some legitimate complaint.”

      So says Sir Brian. So tell me please what is Shearer’s legitimate complaint ? That he was undermined by anonymous, in-darkened-rooms commentators ?

      If that is so, then he is wrong. Shearer as Leader was unavailable to ordinary Labour members. He wouldn’t meet with them, he didn’t answer letters, or emails, he was uncomfortable on marae, he wouldn’t speak with members at functions, he was always protected by his minders such as Cosgrove or Jones – and so those ordinary Labour members made up their own minds about him. Something that he hasn’t yet realised : that Labour members have minds of their own, they do their own thinking and analysis – and they put their thumbs down on Shearer.

      • boldsirbrian 24.2.1
        15 October 2014 at 12:40 am

        @ Jenny Kirk (24.2)

        So tell me please what is Shearer’s legitimate complaint ? That he was undermined by anonymous, in-darkened-rooms commentators ?

        That was my understanding of his complaint.

        ~~~~~`

        If that is so, then he is wrong.

        Apart from the fact that the evidence is there for all to see. The sort of comments I have singled out. I note that I have not used any of your posts as an example. If I had, I think the bar could be set lower, as you post with your name. But those with anonymous handles (like myself) need to be especially careful when making criticisms. And he is also talking about ‘undermining’, which I take to mean the Whaleoil smears, half truths and ad hominem attacks, that have been exposed in “Dirty Politics”. Any politician MUST expect fair criticism for what he does as part of the job.

        ~~~~~

        Shearer as Leader was unavailable to ordinary Labour members. He wouldn’t meet with them, he didn’t answer letters, or emails, he was uncomfortable on marae, he wouldn’t speak with members at functions, he was always protected by his minders such as Cosgrove or Jones – and so those ordinary Labour members made up their own minds about him. Something that he hasn’t yet realised : that Labour members have minds of their own, they do their own thinking and analysis – and they put their thumbs down on Shearer.

        I am no apologist for Shearer. To the extent that what you say is true, all of what you say is fair political criticism. I would not criticise you for pointing these things out. And I am sorry that you think I would have. Thank you for the opportunity to make this distinction clear.

        Cheers
        Mr. Botany (B.)

    • Tracey 24.3
      14 October 2014 at 12:18 pm

      And yet Shearer himself gave no examples despite, apparently have so many to choose from. Has not come here to express them.

      I also question his, and your definition of a blog?

      • boldsirbrian 24.3.1
        15 October 2014 at 12:23 am

        @ Tracey (24.3)

        And yet Shearer himself gave no examples despite, apparently have so many to choose from.

        You jest! I just picked the post of the day, and went back about ten comments and picked some obvious examples I hardly see there was a need for Shearer to pick a particular one out

        [lprent: You still haven’t said why they were anything to be concerned about? You have just asserted that they are and provided neither evidence or *any* supporting facts. Why should anyone take you seriously? ]

        ~~~~~

        Has not come here to express them.

        He probably thinks he could use his time more productively cutting his toenails. At least that’s what I would think if I was in his shoes.

        ~~~~~

        I also question his, and your definition of a blog?

        I’m puzzled by the question! I’d suggest you look at wikipedia, perhaps?

        Cheers
        Mr. Botany (B.)

        • Colonial Rawshark 24.3.1.1
          15 October 2014 at 12:42 am

          LOLZ mate. Why don’t you fuck off then and do your toe nails instead of bugging us.

          BTW of course Shearer likes to think of The Standard as irrelevant. As irrelevant as the big gaping hole we collectively put into his ability to pretend all was going well with his Leadership.

          • boldsirbrian 24.3.1.1.1
            15 October 2014 at 1:25 am

            @ Colonial Rawshark (24.3.1.1)

            LOLZ mate. Why don’t you fuck off then and do your toe nails instead of bugging us.

            Because I’m not Shearer. Guys like you treat me with the utmost respect, and appear to even appreciate what I say! I enjoy chatting with you, Colonial! (And my toe nails are already cut)

            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

            BTW of course Shearer likes to think of The Standard as irrelevant. As irrelevant as the big gaping hole we collectively put into his ability to pretend all was going well with his Leadership.

            Putting the big gaping hole in is not the issue. It’s how that hole is made that makes the difference.

            A lawyer once told me that the BEST prosecution ensures that the defence is as good as it can be. There is no wriggle room for the offender to then claim important stuff was left out; or not done well enough, or not done fairly. All the criminal can do is sit in the cell and reflect on what he has done.

            There is some sort of equivalence there as you go about prosecuting a poorly performing Leader

            Cheers
            Mr. Botany (B.)

            • Colonial Rawshark 24.3.1.1.1.1
              15 October 2014 at 1:29 am

              You’re very clever indeed. But usually a time and energy waster. And I find that odd.

    • Tracey 24.4
      14 October 2014 at 12:36 pm

      have you seen this?

      “.… it must be conducted in a spirit of respect and with the realisation that many from outside the Party are watching the process. This applies across mainstream and social media, our husting meetings, other Party meetings and the informal networks which we all have. The greater our discipline the stronger our foundation will be to unite behind the leader who is selected.” …”

      • greywarshark 24.4.1
        14 October 2014 at 3:34 pm

        @ Tracey
        Got a link? I guess it comes from guidelines from te Party admin.?

      • boldsirbrian 24.4.2
        15 October 2014 at 12:13 am

        @ Tracey (24.4)

        Thanks Tracey. I hope I have contributed positively to that objective.

        Even if I am one voice, I’d like it to be known here (while I am also present) that I do not condone discussion that is NOT conducted in a spirit of respect. On this occasion the bile seemed to be being spewed in an ever increasing succession of posts.

        I will also try and ensure my own posts live up to that same expectation

        Cheers
        Mr. Botany (B.)

    • greywarshark 24.5
      14 October 2014 at 3:25 pm

      For goodness sake Bad Sir Brian
      I am beginning to think you are a clever trole. Just a new approach in troledom.

      David Shearer is standing as leader and his every word counts in our attempt to understand him and this is one place where he is not going to get fawned over.
      People here are concerned to get a better Labour party and when they see the old bods combining to set up a mutual support club to get their preferred people into power, which will continue with the degrading of the work environment, employment, wages, lack of social infrastructure, business boosting etc then they get angry. And underneath is the awareness of the downgrading of NZ’s ability to make it in the world and offer all its citizens opportunities to get a good paying job and have a life, all because of the persisting and determined attempts that revolutionised the country by the RWs. And you don’t get change by sitting on your bottom and asking nicely for it. It is necessary to be abrasive, it gets a reaction then doesn’t it, and that’s a first step.

      And you are worrying about David Shearer’s feelings. Better go back to your regular blog. You will feel uncomfortable in our company.

      • Karen 24.5.1
        14 October 2014 at 3:45 pm

        +1 Greyrawshark

      • boldsirbrian 24.5.2
        15 October 2014 at 12:04 am

        @ greywarshark (24.5)
        @ Karen (24.5.1)

        For goodness sake Bad Sir Brian
        I am beginning to think you are a clever trole. Just a new approach in troledom

        Hi greywarshark. That’s nice!

        ~~~~~~

        David Shearer is standing as leader …………………………………….. gets a reaction then doesn’t it, and that’s a first step.

        That’s a good thoughtful passage. I agree with all you say. I’m not sure it has any relevance to my post, or your assertion that I am a trole, but heh, that’s your call.

        ~~~~~~

        And you are worrying about David Shearer’s feelings

        That was not in my thoughts when I wrote my comment. I was thinking about Dirty politics. I was thinking about the credibility of comments here when those commenting use the same or similar methods that have been well attributed to Whaleoil (I note that I did not make any such claim with anything that you have written). Based on the reactions to my post, it appears to me that it is a little harder to "see" such tactics when our "friends" use them, compared to when our "enemy" uses them.

        Cheers
        Mr. Botany (B.)

    • vto 24.6
      14 October 2014 at 4:05 pm

      Diddums for you bold brian.

      There is absolutely no obligation to conduct oneself within anything else other than the rules of this place. Certainly not what David Shearer (or you) thinks should be the rules of the place. When, subjectively, an issue or person is worth it then genuine and credible argument can be advanced, but when the issue or person is worth nothing but shit then perhaps you will get nothing but shit.

      suck on it pea-brain

      • boldsirbrian 24.6.1
        14 October 2014 at 11:47 pm

        @ vto (24.6)

        Diddums for you bold brian.

        Hi, vto!

        ~~~~

        There is absolutely no obligation to conduct oneself within anything else other than the rules of this place.

        I have not suggested otherwise. Even New Zealand law does not even try to outlaw the right of a person to make a fool of themselves, if they are so determined.

        ~~~~

        Certainly not what David Shearer (or you) thinks should be the rules of the place.

        I did not make any comment on the rules of the place. I’m actually very happy with the rules of the place. It allows people who are determined to practice their new skills they have learned at Whaleoil 101 to do so. It allows me to point out that such a post is Whaleoil stuff. And it allows you to choose to try and ridicule the messenger, as you have done. That’s ok. I’m happy to listen

        ~~~~~~~

        When, subjectively, an issue or person is worth it then genuine and credible argument can be advanced, but when the issue or person is worth nothing but shit then perhaps you will get nothing but shit. suck on it pea-brain

        And you are quite free to dump a pile of shit, as you have done, and obviously happy to have done. I’m vaguely mystified as to why, but not mystified enough to desire a response.

        Cheers
        Mr. Botany (B.)

        argument can be advanced, but when the issue or person is worth nothing but

        When, subjectively, an issue or person is worth it then genuine and credible shit then perhaps you will get nothing but shit.

        suck on it pea-brain

        • vto 24.6.1.1
          15 October 2014 at 7:44 am

          Fair enough bold brian, and despite not wanting an explanation for such comment styles as that at issue, can I suggest that Murray Rawshark immediately below summarises the situation perfectly in his first paragraph – it is part of an entire history of commenting. Such history ranges from short and shitty to long, comprehensive and, I would like to think, compelling. It needs to be viewed in this light.

    • Murray Rawshark 24.7
      14 October 2014 at 8:30 pm

      Nah. The comments we make here are part of an ongoing conversation we have. You are asking us to substantiate each comment by detailing the whole history.

      To suggest those who aren’t Labour members are bringing the party into disrepute is ridiculous. I am actually beginning to wonder if you are posting in bad faith.

      • boldsirbrian 24.7.1
        14 October 2014 at 11:32 pm

        @ Murray Rawshark (24.7)

        Nah. The comments we make here are part of an ongoing conversation(

        What they are part of it totally irrelevant.

        ~~~~~~

        You are asking us to substantiate each comment by detailing the whole history.

        I was not asking you to substantiate anything.

        ~~~~~~~

        To suggest those who aren’t Labour members are bringing the party into disrepute is ridiculous.

        Perhaps it would be, or perhaps it wouldn’t be. Depends on what the suggestion was. As I did not make such a suggestion, it’s totally irrelevant

        ~~~~~~~

        I am actually beginning to wonder if you are posting in bad faith.

        I’m actually simply baffled by your post. Almost a parallel universe. I didn’t even male a comment on any of your posts! Perhaps you post under a couple of pseudonyms?

        Cheers
        Mr. Botany (B.)

        • ropata:rorschach 24.7.1.1
          3 November 2014 at 12:05 am

          boring sir pea-brain

          If you have something to say please spit it out instead of re-hashing entire comment threads. Ever heard of a hyperlink ?

          I’m not a party member either, more of a swing voter, but I supported Shearer because he was the public face of Labour and God knows we need some decent opposition to the right-wing track that NZ is stuck on. (full speed into a brick wall). I will support the next leader too. (unless that bastard Roger Douglas makes a comeback)

  25. travellerev 25
    14 October 2014 at 11:03 am

    Not quite a raid but waddayaknow! New Zealand is ISIS’s internet headquarters and with the old laws we couldn’t find them. Be prepared for more laws, more restrictions, more censure. But conspiring? Our governments? NEVERRRRRR. Rofl!

  26. Clemgeopin 26
    14 October 2014 at 11:05 am

    When Shearer was leaser, I was a very loyal supporter of his.
    Now I am thinking, ‘what the heck was I thinking!’

    • Chooky Shark Smile 26.1
      14 October 2014 at 12:34 pm

      @ Clem…you mean “leader”

      …well i think Shearer had such a great CV and great msm publicity to begin with that most Labour people were supporters of him!

      …but Shearer just couldnt live up to the minimum standard required of a leader

      ie Shearer was not articulate. Shearer couldnt think on his feet. Shearer didnt have enough experience. Shearer seemed ignorant of issues. Shearer was out of touch with Labour. Shearer seemed blinded by his own importance and oblivious to his own shortcomings.

      • Clemgeopin 26.1.1
        14 October 2014 at 1:00 pm

        Oops, yes, ‘leader’. Now he has become an idiot in his public statements bringing Cunliffe, but more importantly the party into disrepute in the minds of the public.

  27. adam 27
    14 October 2014 at 11:22 am

    Whilst the cut and thrust of labour party politics may enthrall some – I’m over it. Really, I don’t care, what a bunch of liberals are doing. What they are doing is not stopping the pain and hurt that working people have to deal with every day. What they are not doing is putting the boot into a government of lies and spin. What they are not doing is standing up to the corporatocracy, which has walked into power in this country.

    But, bugger me – lets prattle and fiddle whilst working people suffer. By all means carry on – I know it’s way more simpler to bitch about the fishmonger from Mt Albert and his liberal failings.

    But the real world, is kinda shitty at the moment for working people and about to get worse.

    Housing
    Jobs
    Wages
    Falling health system
    Inflation
    Jingoism

    So here’s one from left field.

    This is from the states – what the future of the private prisons mean here in NZ, and the pressure it will put on families when the model is fully rolled out.

    http://www.publicintegrity.org/2014/09/25/15761/prison-bankers-cash-captive-customers?utm_campaign=prison_profit_a&utm_source=appeal&utm_medium=link&goal=0_ffd1d0160d-f06427fd77-100020097&mc_cid=f06427fd77&mc_eid=c346e018f7

    • Chooky Shark Smile 27.1
      14 October 2014 at 12:41 pm

      @ adam….heartbreaking!

      …this is why we need a united coordinated, cooperative umbrella organisation of the Left Parties to win the next Election ( see karols post)

    • left for deadshark 27.2
      14 October 2014 at 8:35 pm

      Not sure I should thank you for that link Adam,depressing,greedy bastards..

    • vto 27.3
      14 October 2014 at 9:02 pm

      John Key would be all for that… yes he would …. in fact he is already ….

      New Zealand, what have you done???

      • adam 27.3.1
        14 October 2014 at 11:16 pm

        Corporations don’t like working folk left for deadshark, they really only care for the dollar.

        I had a discussion when private prisons were first noted and pointed out the were a road to hell for working families. I think the States is proving that over and over. We need to stop them, actually we really need to discuss the whole institution, and ask if it is really working at all?

        I agree vto what have we done – but, more importantly – what are we going to do.

  28. RedLogix 28
    14 October 2014 at 11:59 am

    Some simple exponential math for you all:

    Ebola case doubling time at present = 20 days.

    Current number of cases = 4,000

    World population = 7,500,000,000

    Number of Doubling Periods = ((ln(7,500,000,000) – ln(4,000))/ln(2)= 10.94

    Number of days = 10.94 * 20 = 219

    Date Ebola infects entire world population = Thursday, 21st May, 2015.

    The upside is that with treatment about 30-40% of cases do survive. So it’s not the end of the human race just yet.

    Well reality will be somewhat different to this simple analysis – but right now we do not have an effective treatment or vaccine. But once it reaches across Africa into say Egypt or the Middle East in say about another 6 – 8 weeks, the rest of the world will have to close all borders.

    Wonder if we will have a new NZLP leader by then?

    • Lanthanide 28.1
      14 October 2014 at 1:14 pm

      “but right now we do not have an effective treatment or vaccine”

      But we (rich nations) do have effective quarantine measures.

      • RedLogix 28.1.1
        14 October 2014 at 1:24 pm

        Yes – I agree we can certainly do quarantine better than chaotic, impoverished Third World nations.

        Although so far by far the most vulnerable group are medical professionals who are all fully suited and trained. And these suits are neither simple to work in or use safely. You finish up sweltering at 40 degC and have to change out every 40 mins or so. The act of getting out of the suit (with the help of a buddy) is the most dangerous point. How sustainable is this going to be in the face of maybe thousands of cases?

        On a wider scale mass quarantine will imply the closing down of all global, regional and even local travel. That alone has massive implications.

        And even then we have to consider the impact of maybe 2-3 billion deaths in Third World nations without effective quarantine.

        • McFlock 28.1.1.1
          14 October 2014 at 3:37 pm

          There are real problems running an “if these exponential trends continue” analysis on disease spread.

          Basically, there is an escalating response scale (like the so-called “terror alert levels” but, like, actually effective) available to nations. It will be much worse for developing nations than developed, as you point out (4,000 vs half a dozen so far). but the global response is kicking up because it’s much easier to try to limit it at this level rather than wait for it to cross one’s own borders.

          I think your 2-3bil deaths estimate is wildly alarmist (or optimistic, if your in the pro-human extinction brigade). It might become endemic in parts of Africa and Asia, like malaria. But it’s not a doomsday event, even for most of those continents.

          • RedLogix 28.1.1.1.1
            14 October 2014 at 6:50 pm

            The natural host for Ebola is thought to be fruit-bats, and has only recently evolved to become infectious in humans. The usual pattern for a disease adapting to a new host is to start out highly lethal, but weakly infectious and to gradually transition to something which is endemic in the environment, but much less lethal.

            But as the virus makes this transition, there is a window where it is both – highly infectious and highly lethal. The 1918 flu is one example. Smallpox being an exception. The pattern of this transition is highly variable. Ebola is bang in the middle of this pattern right now.

            Of course the 1918 flu gained it’s massive foothold due to the enormous numbers of soldiers living in camps and then being sent home all over the world – and a medical system that had little ability to anticipate and prevent it’s spread.

            The conditions in Africa are highly favourable to a mass-death epidemic, a fact that has WHO extremely concerned. Mass populations living in generally unsanitary camp-like conditions, with a high probability of uncontrollable movements of infectious people in the region, combined with an overwhelmed medical system. The US Army is right now flying in extra troops to assist and we have to hope they make a difference.

            And that these people know what they are doing. Things could get very interesting if American troops suddenly start dying as well. We have already seen many health workers infected despite following protocol. This means either the protocols are either not fully effective or difficult to comply with – which doesn’t bode well either way.

            If in the next 20 days the death toll has cumulatively doubled to 12,000 then we will have a clear indication that early containment has failed. It’s that 20 day doubling period which is as scary as hell in the short-term. In the longer run I agree with you that it will likely become another endemic disease like malaria – but getting there could be a bear.

            And then within say 40 days the world will have to implement total travel bans.

            • Rawmadness Natshark 28.1.1.1.1.1
              14 October 2014 at 7:07 pm

              The ambiguity on it’s method of transfer is alarming at present with a suited nurse catching it.

            • McFlock 28.1.1.1.1.2
              14 October 2014 at 9:26 pm

              That’s in the ballpark of reasonable predictions, but it could equally burn out in the next several months as controls become effective in urban environments and its growth slows to manageable levels in rural areas.

              • Colonial Rawshark …
                14 October 2014 at 9:50 pm

                a commentator on Twitter @leashless quite correctly pointed out – when the time comes we need to quickly gear up immune/mostly immune Ebola survivors to function as healthcare workers.

                • wekarawshark …
                  14 October 2014 at 10:01 pm

                  I’ve also been thinking about what happens when the hospitals reach overload point. What would NZ authorities do? Keep people at home? Makeshift quarantine facilities?

                  Have seen a comment somewhere that we should be treating this as an opportunity to develop quarantine proceedures for all potential epidemics.

                  I think we would be unlikely to get Ebola here, but I don’t trust our border control either. Harsh, but why are countries repatriating citizens who contract Ebola overseas? Wouldn’t it be better to fund their treatment where they are?

                  • Colonial Rawshark …
                    14 October 2014 at 10:38 pm

                    Funding is an issue, but frankly some of these provinces are short doctors and nurses and they cannot be magicked up. IIRC Liberia only has a few dozen doctors for a population of millions – and some of those doctors have already died. Its bad news.

                  • McFlock …
                    14 October 2014 at 11:13 pm

                    The basic response templates can be found at the Ministry of Health.

                    Based around influenza, but can be adapted to other outbreaks.
                    We’ve already seen some implementation, such as the Middlemore? isolation ward having its preparation and training upped, but it’s sort of a constant function of them backroom boorowkrats. For exampe, in 2007 they ran Operation Cruickshank, a nationwide exercise where they simulated an infectious person getting off a plane.

                    But then that’s the sort of thing that they haven’t been able to do in Liberia, ever.

                    • wekarawshark …
                      14 October 2014 at 11:29 pm

                      So what happens when the hospitals are full?

                    • McFlock …
                      14 October 2014 at 11:55 pm

                      Hard choices, higher triage threshholds, improvised/temporary facilities, and home quarantine.

                      But they can commandeer all the public facilities that are shut down for the duration.

                  • Clemgeopin …
                    15 October 2014 at 12:44 am

                    I think we would be unlikely to get Ebola here

                    why would you say that considering there are thousands of people/visitors travelling all over the world now.

                    I don’t trust our border control either

                    Even if they are effective, they will not be able to identify all potential carriers at the airport/shipping terminals

                    Harsh, but why are countries repatriating citizens who contract Ebola overseas? Wouldn’t it be better to fund their treatment where they are?

                    Don’t know the reason, but it is a valid question.

                    Scary stuff!

              • RedLogix …
                14 October 2014 at 10:27 pm

                @McFlock,

                Some critical things we do not know are:

                1. How quickly is this virus mutating? Previous outbreaks were more lethal, but were contained due to relatively poor infectivity. This outbreak seems to have hit the ‘black spot’ in terms of both.

                2. How competent and effective will any containment effort be? So far the global response has been well short of the mark.

                3. What other events might intersect on a response effort? What if the situation in Iraq spirals out of control? Or another GFC?

                • wekarawshark …
                  14 October 2014 at 10:32 pm

                  4. how will repressive govts in the West use an outbreak to further consolidate their power and undermine democracy? At this point I find that more scarey than the possibility of Ebola spreading.

                  • RedLogix …
                    14 October 2014 at 10:46 pm

                    Yes – I should have made this clearer – but it is all the potential secondary impacts that are what I am worrying about.

                    A bad virus with a doubling period of 20 days is just really what we need right now. Not.

                • McFlock …
                  14 October 2014 at 10:58 pm

                  Indeed.

                  But we don’t know that all of those factors are in the worst case hollywood-level pandemic area, either.

                  It is an emergency. It is not the ned of days.
                  Or even the end of days.

                  The Ned of Days is actually pretty chill, according to the Book of Revellerations.

                  • RedLogix …
                    14 October 2014 at 11:14 pm

                    My first post on this simply showed just how potentially dangerous a 20 day doubling period could be.

                    And I did make the point that while reality was likely to be different to a simple exponential curve – it remains the underlying driver unless we can effectively intervene.

                    Perhaps I can defer to an expert:

                    Attention, World: You just don’t get it.

                    You think there are magic bullets in some rich country’s freezers that will instantly stop the relentless spread of the Ebola virus in West Africa? You think airport security guards in Los Angeles can look a traveler in the eyes and see infection, blocking that jet passenger’s entry into La-la-land?

                    You believe novelist Dan Brown’s utterly absurd description of a World Health Organization that has a private C5-A military transport jet and disease SWAT team that can swoop into outbreaks, saving the world from contagion?

                    Wake up, fools. What’s going on in West Africa now isn’t Brown’s silly Inferno scenario — it’s Steven Soderbergh’s movie Contagion, though without a modicum of its high-tech capacity.

                    Last week, my brilliant Council on Foreign Relations colleague John Campbell, former U.S. ambassador to Nigeria, warned that spread of the virus inside Lagos — which has a population of 22 million — would instantly transform this situation into a worldwide crisis, thanks to the chaos, size, density, and mobility of not only that city but dozens of others in the enormous, oil-rich nation. Add to the Nigerian scenario civil war, national elections, Boko Haram terrorists, and a countrywide doctors’ strike — all of which are real and current — and you have a scenario so overwrought and frightening that I could not have concocted it even when I advised screenwriter Scott Burns on his Contagion script.

                    http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/08/14/you_are_not_nearly_scared_enough_ebola_vaccine_west_africa_outbreak

                    • McFlock …
                      14 October 2014 at 11:27 pm

                      Leaders across the world should be worried, assessing their preparedness, and helping address the outbreak in WA.

                      But (aside from a few professionals/decision makers who might or might not be reading/commenting here), we should not be worried about ebola any more than we worry about the traffic on the way to work. At this stage, traffic is the bigger and more immediate threat.

                    • RedLogix …
                      14 October 2014 at 11:34 pm

                      At this stage, traffic is the bigger and more immediate threat.

                      Classic failure to recognise a black swan.

                      The difference is that while the traffic on the way to work is indeed a more immediate and larger risk, it is one we have learned to live with as a society. Traffic accidents kill about 1.2 m people annually, malaria kills many times this number. But these are known and contained risks the system copes with.

                      While ebola – and it’s potential secondary impacts especially – has the real potential to be globally disruptive.

                    • McFlock …
                      15 October 2014 at 12:05 am

                      Nope.
                      Simply pointing out that if I worried too much about ebola and its effect on hospitals, I might get hit by a truck tomorrow. Sort of a “white swan” effect.

                      We know what the worst case scenario is. But to fixate on the WCS is almost as pointless as simply being in denial about how bad things might be.

                    • wekarawshark …
                      15 October 2014 at 12:19 am

                      He doesn’t look fixated to me.

                      Isn’t thinking through scenarios part of planning?

                    • RedLogix …
                      15 October 2014 at 12:22 am

                      Oh I get it McF – no point in worrying, something will turn up.

                      Ever wonder why the left keeps on getting blindsided? It’s because we keep being fixated on the little things under our noses, while all the really important things that affect us are global in nature.

                      And that is where everyone immediately disconnects – the moment something is defined as ‘global’ in nature we immediately lose any sense of agency and abdicate our autonomy to others.

                    • Colonial Rawshark …
                      15 October 2014 at 12:23 am

                      Nope.
                      Simply pointing out that if I worried too much about ebola and its effect on hospitals, I might get hit by a truck tomorrow. Sort of a “white swan” effect.

                      Nope. That’s still classic failure to recognise Black Swan events.

                      Without meaning to be callous, and although we will miss your valuable input here at The Standard for a while, it really doesn’t really matter (to society) if you get hit by a truck tomorrow.

                      A few cases of ebola – that’s a different story.

                    • McFlock …
                      15 October 2014 at 12:40 am

                      Isn’t thinking through scenarios part of planning?

                      Hands up everybody here who is likely to be asked to coordinate a global, national, or even hospital-level response to a pandemic.

                      Now hands up everyone who has the basic 3days of supplies in case of emergency, and a current first aid certificate. That’s planning for most people involved in this discussion, I bet.

                      no point in worrying, something will turn up.

                      Nope, that’s not what I said. And yes, we do abdicate our agency to others, when we are not in a position to do a damned thing about it.

                      Without meaning to be callous, and although we will miss your valuable input here at The Standard for a while, it really doesn’t really matter (to society) if you get hit by a truck tomorrow.

                      True. I’d be irked, though.
                      And if we all worried about ebola so much we stopped paying attention to traffic, and international efforts to control it managed to knock it back, then ebola could conceivably kill more people just by panic than its direct threat as a disease.

                    • RedLogix …
                      15 October 2014 at 12:55 am

                      I fully agree it is way too soon to panic about Ebola, but not too soon educate ourselves about it and to think about your own personal responses to what could happen.

                      Hands up everybody here who is likely to be asked to coordinate a global, national, or even hospital-level response to a pandemic.

                      That is of course a political matter. Our governments are responsible for organising and funding this level of response. So far the rich countries emergency level response has been woefully short.

                      I realise NZ is a modest player in this matter, but what has been said or done so far? Any response at all from Key’s govt, or the Opposition?

                      And if we all worried about ebola so much we stopped paying attention to traffic, and international efforts to control it managed to knock it back, then ebola could conceivably kill more people just by panic than its direct threat as a disease.

                      That is what I mean by secondary effects. Already in the affected countries ordinary medical care has collapsed; people are dying because traffic injuries remain untreated and child-birth is unattended.

                      And you are quite correct, panic would be the worst response. But of course panic is the normal response to the fear of the unknown and a sense of powerlessness born out of ignorance and a failure to think ahead.

                    • McFlock …
                      15 October 2014 at 1:18 am

                      If coordination of NZ’s response were a political matter, I’d be pretty bloody disappointed.

                      MoH has implemented some measures based on the situation and will escalate further if the situation deteriorates, and the ministry’s also set up a technical advisory group to make sure appropriate precautions have been taken.

                      I have no idea whether an official NZ contribution to West Africa has been requested or considered.

                    • wekarawshark …
                      15 October 2014 at 1:41 am

                      “Hands up everybody here who is likely to be asked to coordinate a global, national, or even hospital-level response to a pandemic.

                      Now hands up everyone who has the basic 3days of supplies in case of emergency, and a current first aid certificate. That’s planning for most people involved in this discussion, I bet.”

                      I don’t believe you have answered my question about what happens once the hospitals are full. I trust NZ to manage a few cases. I don’t trust us to manage an epidemic. Chch taught me that once we are past our limits of what we can cope with, we don’t do very well. I’m not talking about emergency medical services in Chch (they seemed to have done well), I’m talking about what happened after the quakes over the short, medium and long term.

                      So your smarty pants reply misses the point. Planning isn’t just for the authorities. No-one in this conversation is panicking. If you don’t feel the personal need to talk these things through so you can be prepared, why are you talking?

                      btw, 3 days of supplies is woefully inadequate. When the big one hit’s the Alpine fault we will need months of supplies. Likewise with an epidemic. Or a big oil crash. Preparation for local resilience has been going on for some time now. Most people I know don’t believe that local or central govt authorities are reliable (although they certainly have their place). The idea of handing over all responsibility would be laughable.

                  • Colonial Rawshark …
                    14 October 2014 at 11:15 pm

                    We’ll know by the time New Years hangovers come by how screwed 2015 will be. Maybe it will all be sorted by then. Maybe.

                  • McFlock …
                    15 October 2014 at 1:00 pm

                    I don’t believe you have answered my question about what happens once the hospitals are full.

                    see above.
                    By the way, the hospital beds aren’t the problem, especially with a fairly short-run condition. The problem will be with sticks of consumables from medication to blankets, and there is a tiered system of local/dhb/ministry stockpiling for emergencies.

                    I trust NZ to manage a few cases. I don’t trust us to manage an epidemic. Chch taught me that once we are past our limits of what we can cope with, we don’t do very well. I’m not talking about emergency medical services in Chch (they seemed to have done well), I’m talking about what happened after the quakes over the short, medium and long term.

                    Okay, but most of that was demolition and reconstruction. The logistical issues relating to a pandemic, even one that kills say 25% of the population, revolve largely around which fields to dig big holes in and who drives the trucks. And long term skills shortages/retraining.

                    So your smarty pants reply misses the point. Planning isn’t just for the authorities. No-one in this conversation is panicking. If you don’t feel the personal need to talk these things through so you can be prepared, why are you talking?

                    Because pointlessly speculating about 3 billion deaths tends to create the foundations for panic. When we get a few spill-over cases within our borders, I still want to be able to go to the supermarket without being delayed by people bulk-buying because the end of days is here. And avoid being clocked in the carpark by the SUV of some jerk who watched “world war z” one too many times.

                    btw, 3 days of supplies is woefully inadequate. When the big one hit’s the Alpine fault we will need months of supplies. Likewise with an epidemic. Or a big oil crash. Preparation for local resilience has been going on for some time now. Most people I know don’t believe that local or central govt authorities are reliable (although they certainly have their place). The idea of handing over all responsibility would be laughable.

                    Yeah, well, people have dug backyard A-bomb bunkers for decades.
                    The funny thing about all of this is that if there’s global spread of a disease with 70% mortality, and it spreads throughout New Zealand, then:

                    1. both of us will probably be dead anyway, and
                    2. if one of us survives, we can be some of the 1 million people living off the stockpiles designed for 4 million.
    • joe90 28.2
      14 October 2014 at 10:03 pm

      Hope, Dallas nurse Nina Pham who contracted ebola treating Eric Duncan has had a blood transfusion from survivor Dr. Kent Brantly.

      http://www.wfaa.com/story/news/health/2014/10/13/ebola-tcu-christian-student-dallas-nurse/17192239/

      Arrogance, talking head flouts quarantine,

      Says the tipster:

      Dr. Nancy Snyderman, the NBC on-air doctor whose cameraman was diagnosed with ebola, is supposed to be under quarantine for 21 days. She happens to live in my neighborhood in Princeton, NJ, where her reputation as a bit of an arrogant specimen had me idly remarking last night that if ever there were someone likely to flout the quarantine and leave their house, it was her.

      Fast forward to today: my wife and a friend are virtually certain they spotted her in a car outside a restaurant in Hopewell, NJ within the past hour. She sent a guy in to retrieve her food and remained in the car. It appeared that as soon as she thought she’d been spotted, she looked away and put on sunglasses. My wife’s friend immediately called both the Hopewell and Princeton police, who said they’d “look into it.”

      http://gawker.com/nbc-chief-medical-correspondent-quarantined-for-ebola-1645924287

      • Colonial Rawshark 28.2.1
        14 October 2014 at 10:43 pm

        You have well trained healthcare staff in good facilities in Dallas and in Madrid contracting ebola, despite being aware of the issues and extensive precautions being taken. Not good.

      • Clemgeopin 28.2.2
        15 October 2014 at 12:56 am

        Thanks for the links, Joe90. Very interesting.

        Shocking irresponsible stuff from people that should know better!

  29. bearded rawshark 29
    14 October 2014 at 12:21 pm

    Interesting that anyone who is not currently a financial Labour Party member but has been a paid up member in the last 3 years can still join the party by paying the membership fee by November 11th and so can vote……hopefully for Andrew Little as he seems to be the only principled person left in the race.

  30. Princess 30
    14 October 2014 at 12:23 pm

    Could DC make a come back if Little !!!!!s up? If Shearer is correct in saying DC will undermine the next leader does that mean DC could rise from the ashes? Definitely will get my membership vote.

    • bearded rawshark 30.1
      14 October 2014 at 12:31 pm

      as i said above, there could be a Blair/Brown deal between Little and Cunliffe….Little wins in 2017, and again in 2020 and in 2021 Little resigns as leader and Cunliffe his right hand man and best performing minister is recommended by Little as his succesor…..

  31. joe90 31
    14 October 2014 at 1:33 pm

    The national standards endgame?.

    .

    In April, parents and teachers launched a high-profile fight to block a takeover of Steel by a charter-school network after the district, citing the school’s low test scores, declared it in need of an overhaul. Brooks believes that her school—which, like others, has reeled under the budget cuts implemented by Pennsylvania’s Republican governor, Tom Corbett—had been set up to fail. Last spring, apart from the principal and a secretary, she says, Steel had “a teacher for each class” and almost “nothing extra.”

    http://www.thenation.com/article/181754/how-destroy-public-school-system?page=full

    .

    Also, is this why Seymour won’t be subject to parliamentary questions or the OIA?

    .

    The Philadelphia School District will spend a projected $729 million on charter schools in the coming fiscal year. But, if the past year at one charter operator is any indication, not all of those funds will actually go toward serving students.

    Aspira Inc. of Pennsylvania owed large sums of money to four Philadelphia charter schools it runs, according to an independent audit of the organization’s finances as of June 30, 2012, that was obtained by City Paper. According to the report, which was produced for Aspira and completed in April, the nonprofit was running a deficit of $722,949 as of last June and owed the publicly financed schools $3.3 million. That’s in addition to millions of dollars in lease payments and administrative fees filtered to Aspira and entities it controls with no oversight.

    “That money is being given to fulfill the purposes of the charter, which is to run the school,” says Michael Masch, a former chief financial officer at the District and budget secretary under Gov. Ed Rendell. “It’s taxpayer money, and it’s limited as to its use.”

    http://citypaper.net/News/Charter-operator-owed-its-schools-millions-but-no-ones-checking-its-books/

  32. adam 32
    14 October 2014 at 3:20 pm

    The Freedom of Movement is an important right for workers.

    As the right to Free Association.

    Now we seemed to have lost both, with one swift vote at the UN. The resolution 2178 passed by the UN security council in a unanimous vote to fight Isis and curb foreign fighters. This is a new piece of international law, we have signed up to. And it is a worry. It is the vagueness of UN resolution 2178 which scares me the most.

    http://www.un.org/en/ga/search/view_doc.asp?symbol=S/RES/2178%20(2014)

    The “Threats to international peace and security caused by terrorist acts” was first supported by the US and Sri Lanka. It was written quickly and has academics and some media commentators, left feeling, very anxious.

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-debate/un-wants-to-battle-is-but-is-it-fighting-freedom/article20890383/

    It empowers member states to fight international terrorism – as they see fit. This begs the question, if political opponents are nuisance, they can just label them a terrorist – and lock people up in the name of international terror. It creates vagueness in an already shadowy world of anti-terror. It would appear, to be the Patriot Act – on a global scale.

    It seems we got the smoke screen from Key again. Whilst he was talking up terrorism and laws here, anti-terrorism legislation was passed through the backdoor at the UN. Peter Fraser warned of the problem of permanent members on the UN security council, and their ability to manipulate the whole of the UN via that power. Seems old Peter was right.

  33. Draco T Bastard 33
    14 October 2014 at 3:39 pm

    Tony Abbott says ‘coal is good for humanity’ while opening mine

    Tony Abbott has declared “coal is good for humanity” while opening a coalmine in Queensland.

    The prime minister, who describes himself as a conservationist, said coal was vital to the world and that fossil fuel should not be demonised.

    “Coal is vital for the future energy needs of the world,” he said. “So let’s have no demonisation of coal. Coal is good for humanity.”

    /facepalm

    So, according to Abbott killing most of the life from the Earth which may include us is good for us?

    Yeah, this proves that he’s delusional.

  34. ianmac 34
    14 October 2014 at 4:33 pm

    Labour’s Hauraki-Waikato MP Nanaia Mahuta will contest the Labour Leadership.
    Just announced.
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11342299

    • Murray Rawshark 34.1
      14 October 2014 at 10:18 pm

      Great. She inspires me a lot more than any of the grey pakeha males that have lined themselves up. At the very least, she’s not more of the same.

  35. higherstandard 35
    14 October 2014 at 4:33 pm

    Gawd what a pack of muppets, thank goodness the NZ public saw through Labour at the election.

    [lprent: Why? Explain yourself. Or should I explain to you again why I
    a) don’t like diversion comments on new posts
    b) don’t like people making pointless comments
    c) why this just went to OpenMike
    d) why you just got a 2 week ban. ]

    • Skinny 35.1
      14 October 2014 at 4:43 pm

      Will suit many to have a female candidate, it will see interest from both women and Maori. Should bring in new members too.

    • JanM 35.2
      14 October 2014 at 4:44 pm

      Yes, a window rather than the mirror they voted in because they couldn’t see through it – well done that lot of ignorami

  36. Draco T Bastard 36
    14 October 2014 at 5:26 pm

    Wind power is cheapest energy, EU analysis finds

    The report says that for every megawatt hour (MW/h) of electricity generated, onshore wind costs roughly €105 (£83) per MW/h, compared to gas and coal which can cost up to around €164 and €233 per MW/h, respectively.

    Nuclear power, offshore wind and solar energy are all comparably inexpensive generators, at roughly €125 per MW/h.

    Which is excellent news. Whenever some git says that renewables are so expensive we can hit them around the head with these facts but the interesting thing about the release of the full report was that it was leaked. The official release left out significant bits like:

    The documents’ contents may also be unwelcome in some quarters of the commission, which early today published selective results from it that did not include external health and pollution costs.

    These showed that renewable energy took €38.3bn of public subsidies in 2012, compared to €22.3bn for gas, coal and nuclear. The EU did however note that if free carbon allowances to polluters were included in the data, it “would reduce the gap between support for renewables and other power generation technologies.”

    It seems that the rich polluters still get high powered protection.

    • Rawmadness Natshark 36.2
      14 October 2014 at 6:56 pm

      Fusion reactors man!

      antimatter power,

      Thermonuclear power.

      the good shit. Power!

      /sarc

      • Colonial Rawshark 36.2.1
        14 October 2014 at 10:02 pm

        I have mates going on about Thorium. I say to them – so, where is the 10MW test reactor feeding power into the grid? They stop talking.

        • Draco T Bastard 36.2.1.1
          14 October 2014 at 10:38 pm

          Apparently sacrificed to nuclear weapons.

          • Colonial Rawshark 36.2.1.1.1
            14 October 2014 at 11:41 pm

            Doesn’t explain why there isn’t a pilot reactor at some uni somewhere pumping out a few MW, simply keeping the campus running.

            • Draco T Bastard 36.2.1.1.1.1
              15 October 2014 at 12:40 am

              Yes it does, the one and only one made was shut down in 1973 despite it working and it was shut down because it didn’t produce weapons grade materials. After that it became possible to become a nuclear physicist without even knowing that thorium existed.

              Plenty of countries now looking into it though so I suspect that it won’t be long (decade or two) until there’s a working example.

              • Colonial Rawshark …
                15 October 2014 at 1:07 am

                What you wrote there is a total nonsense when you examine it.

                1) Yes there was a longstanding thorium reactor generator unit operating in the 60’s and 70’s but it got shut down.

                2) Fifty years later, despite all the advances in computing, materials and nuclear physics, it will take a decade or two to get another reactor going.

                • ropata mako shark …
                  15 October 2014 at 1:33 am

                  CV this isn’t a simple project. From the article, a thorium-232 reactor is more technically challenging than the relatively fissile U-238.

                  China and India seem to be pretty close to building their own working prototypes in the next year or so.

                  Who knows why the Yanks mothballed their research? Maybe there was political stuff going on like Draco suggests.

                • Draco T Bastard …
                  15 October 2014 at 2:47 am

                  1. Yes, they built one back in the 60s with 60s tech but they’re not going to build one today using 60s tech. They’ll be doing research to build it using today’s tech.
                  2. I expect that one of those countries will start building one in the fairly near future but 10 years is about how long it takes to build a nuclear reactor and, despite thorium being safer, it’s still nuclear reactor.

                  Like many people you seem to have this strange idea that everything can be built now, now, now. It was that type of BS thinking that allowed the 4th labour government, with Treasuries backing, to get away with selling off Telecom and thus leaving our country and our telecommunications worse off.

    • Murray Rawshark 36.3
      14 October 2014 at 10:24 pm

      With global warming we can also expect steeper temperature and pressure gradients in the atmosphere, hence higher winds on average. As fossil fuels heat us up, they’ll make wind power even more affordable.

      Not an argument for fossil fuel use, just one of those ironies of life.

  37. Once Was Tim 37
    14 October 2014 at 5:30 pm

    …… and so …. the Natzi infighting begins (albeit lowlevel thusfar)
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10615618/Judith-Collins-seething-at-snub

    Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition
    There’ll be a shitload of botox, colagen and Hooten spin (and spit) before this is over!

    • travellerev 37.1
      14 October 2014 at 5:50 pm

      Popcorn and a beer out awaiting the fireworks!

      • Once Was Tim 37.1.1
        17 October 2014 at 2:53 pm

        Yep …. I’d just make sure she’s not in charge of the those NZ Airforce 767 peito tubes.

    • Draco T Bastard 37.2
      14 October 2014 at 7:00 pm

      Former National ministers Richard Worth and Pansy Wong, who both left in the wake of separate scandals, are entitled to use the formal title.

      That really needs to be fixed. If a minister is shown to be dishonourable then they shouldn’t get to wear the title The Honourable because they’ve clearly shown that they aren’t.

      • vto 37.2.1
        14 October 2014 at 9:09 pm

        Key steps outside of convention and protocol at his mere whim…

        Key said he would not get arrogant and let the raw power go to his head. Fat chance of that from the looks of this and his other displays of me-me-me gibber blabber since election.

        New Zealand what have you done???

  38. Rawmadness Natshark 38
    14 October 2014 at 6:33 pm

    Ponders todays open mike comments.

    A lot of talk of factions and press statements by various labour heads. The thing I wonder is why we even have factions. Perhaps factions is the issue that needs dealing with and not who leads Labour.

    Frankly the party members should be behind policy for the good of the country. To be elected to represent the people of New Zealand is a responsibility and privilege that should be respected, not an avenue for personal advancement of ones self.

    If any Labour brass read this and fall into the latter trying to promote their own ideals, they should remember who elects them, and that they work for the greater good first and foremost, it’s not about you. Then maybe we would have less factions/clicks and therefore a more cohesive and performing group of representatives focused on a single set of policies to promote discussed and formulated as a winning team.

  39. Penny Bright 39
    14 October 2014 at 7:52 pm

    How can Auckland Council ‘make fish of one – but fowl of the other’ when it comes to publishing the ‘devilish details’ of contracts issued – for public scrutiny?

    Auckland Transport provides the ‘devilish detail’ of contracts issued on its website – so how come Auckland Council and the rest of Auckland Council Controlled Organisations (CCOs) do not?

    https://at.govt.nz/about-us/procurement/awarded-contracts/

    Awarded contracts

    Auckland Transport is committed to ensuring its procurement activities are undertaken in an ethical and transparent manner.
    The attached lists detail all of the contracts awarded in the previous six months that are valued over $50,000.00. Details include:

    the contract number,
    the contract name,
    the supplier, and the
    award value.
    View the latest awarded contracts list (PDF 64KB)

    Disclaimer: we endeavour to list all contracts awarded above the value of $50,000.00 in the previous six months. Whilst all possible care and effort has been taken to ensure accuracy in this list, we accept no responsibility for any errors or omissions. Accordingly, this list should be used for reference only.

    For more information or advice

    Please e-mail us: procurement@aucklandtransport.govt.nz

    ______________________________________________________________________________________

    Try checking out the Auckland Council website and websites for the other Auckland Council Controlled Organisation websites, and see if YOU can find equivalent details of ‘contracts issued’?

    I’ve looked and I can’t.

    Which is why I’m refusing to pay Auckland Council rates, because we’re not being told EXACTLY where public rates monies are being spent.

    Check for yourselves – details of ‘contracts issued’:

    Auckland Council

    http://www.aucklandcouncil.govt.nz/EN/Pages/default.aspx

    Auckland Council Investment Limited

    http://www.aucklandcouncil.govt.nz/…/council…

    Auckland Council Property Limited

    http://www.aucklandcouncil.govt.nz/…/council_property.aspx

    Auckland Council Tourism, Events and Economic Development

    http://www.aucklandcouncil.govt.nz/…/tourism_events…

    Auckland Waterfront Development Agency Limited

    http://www.aucklandcouncil.govt.nz/…/waterfront…

    Regional Facilities Auckland

    http://www.aucklandcouncil.govt.nz/…/regional…

    Watercare Services Limited

    http://www.aucklandcouncil.govt.nz/…/watercare_services…

    Penny Bright

  40. Rodel 40
    14 October 2014 at 8:00 pm

    Hey Jim- How about coming back and starting ‘the Reformed Labour or Social Democratic Party?’

    You’d get quite a few votes and we’d only expect you to stay for 3 years…Have a word to Hone, David, maybe Laila and even Winston or Ron Marks if Winston’s too tired.

  41. RedBaronCV 41
    14 October 2014 at 10:24 pm

    I’m getting a bit sick of all the slagging off of “special interest groups”. While I might roll them all into one statement – the we stand for equal / affirmative treatment … – As far as I can see women, LBGT , young people vote and are part of society. Why is the white male vote the only one worth having??

    Why this constant demand that we all adhere to the white middled aged male view of ” reasonable” and then expect to be slagged off if we don’t want to. There seems to be a level of blokification spreading over society , whether it is the male shock jocks, elderly male RW commentators stuck in some mind warp of their own, (we seem to be awash with those) or the endless dribbling on male sport. ( borrowed a car the other day- don’t know what station it was on but the news seemed to consist of 28 minutes of sport. ) All this adds up an insiduous fog that shuts out the needs of other groups.

    • wekarawshark 41.1
      14 October 2014 at 10:30 pm

      It’s a backlash against the human rights gains of recent decades. The people in the dominant group who haven’t adapted are going to resist more and more as their privileges that come at the expense of others are eroded. It’s their death fight. The good news is that there are plenty of white men who get it and who now support a society where all people can be treated fairly. That’s a big change in my lifetime.

      • Colonial Rawshark 41.1.1
        14 October 2014 at 11:55 pm

        Your analysis avoids the issue of class, including avoiding considering the utter destruction of secure decent paying working class jobs and the inability/unwillingness of the privileged liberal class to do anything effective about that.

        As economic conditions get worse, you can expect more and more people to start sneering at the purported and ineffectual values of the liberal elite.

        The people in the dominant group who haven’t adapted are going to resist more and more as their privileges that come at the expense of others are eroded.

        But this isn’t what is actually happening, which suggests that you won’t be able to successfully counter what is actually happening.

        • wekarawshark 41.1.1.1
          15 October 2014 at 12:17 am

          Not sure what you are on about there CV. I was referring to the likes of Shearer.

          btw, most of my work within feminism has been alongside working class women. This is part of the reason why I find your analysis of identity politics so odd. Feminism as practiced by the people I have known inherently had class issues built in. Being raised middle class, I initially learned about class from those women.

          I don’t have to counter what is happening. Identity politics gains will only be rolled back if we become an extremely repressive society, and I don’t mean individual policies, I mean that things like that we have human rights legislation, or that women have relative degrees of financial emancipation.

          Solutions to the problems of working class men won’t come at the expense of other identities. Stop buying into the shock jock and Shearer memes.

    • RedLogix 41.2
      14 October 2014 at 11:45 pm

      There seems to be a level of blokification spreading over society , whether it is the male shock jocks, elderly male RW commentators stuck in some mind warp of their own, (we seem to be awash with those) or the endless dribbling on male sport.

      ‘Blokification’ is a good word for it. It’s just as alienating for many men as it is for everyone else.

      Frankly these days I struggle to find anything much in the public sphere I can identify with.

  42. newsense 42
    14 October 2014 at 11:53 pm

    Would anyone else be keen to see a panel discussion between the significant others of this crop of leadership aspirants? From the little I have heard they are all very interesting people in their own right and just purely from the popcorn/entertainment point of view it would be fascinating. Also- it would save the surprise at finding out what they thing later! Ah, oops, actually was thinking about this before DC had pulled out- ha, maybe Karen could host it? Incidentally Karen on this thread and a few others are you that Karen?

  43. ropata mako shark 43
    15 October 2014 at 1:11 am

    As our PM has kindly explained, NZ faces a heinous terrorism threat that is “slightly above zero”. So now would be a good time to make a short list of the worst terrorist attacks in the history of New Zealand and ask who was behind them, so we can get some idea of who poses the greatest terrorist threat to our country.

    Top 3 Terrorist Attacks in NZ History