Open mike 15/05/2024

55 comments on “Open mike 15/05/2024 ”

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1. SPC 1

   15 May 2024 at 7:52 am

   Given younger people need a referee.

   1. crew socks are appropriate when covering a shin guard when playing football – otherwise when its winter and for warmth while in slippers (student flat heating scenario).
   2. the exception to the rule is when pretending to be younger when on the hunt in the gym or bar setting.
   3. parting the hair has always been an option, not a requirement.
   4. aging comes for those wearing skinny jeans.

   https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/lifestyle/2024/05/ankle-socks-cancelled-by-gen-z-millennials-not-happy-about-it.html
   • Jimmy 1.1

     15 May 2024 at 12:25 pm

     Must be a slow news day.
     • SPC 1.1.1

       15 May 2024 at 12:36 pm

       The phony war period before the woman with hair whispers her budget … then winter snow comes for the coalition of three.
2. PsyclingLeft.Always 2

   15 May 2024 at 7:55 am

   Questions about coalition's Covid-19 mandate pledge

   Reti denied that the coalition had included the commitment simply to appease conspiracy theorists. NZ First has also been approached for a response.

   Reti the Denier.

   Labour health spokesperson Ayesha Verrall told RNZ the coalition's commitment was "slightly odd" and appeared little more than a sop to conspiracy theorists.

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/516832/questions-about-coalition-s-covid-19-mandate-pledge

   Maybe they are still seeking to work out how to put all the Health Experts , Prof Michael Baker, Sir Ashley Bloomfield et al…oh, and of course Jacinda Ardern…on trial ?
3. SPC 3

   15 May 2024 at 8:17 am

   The absurd comparison of New Zealand (population growing year by year and little chance of any change under our current policy) with Japan (declining population and deflation for decades).

   https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2024/05/kiwis-warned-to-prepare-for-population-crisis-learn-from-japan-s-mistakes.html

   Our real population concerns are

   1. no provision nor planning for the 2030-2050 health care cost (and pressure on supply of health services) of the boomer generation (the Cullen-Robertson Fund only covers the cost of super payments).
   2. no plan to provide for the aged care facilities required for the 2030-2050 period (or alternatives – such as group homes where mutual care is available within Kainga Ora supplied "villages" or homes fitted out for older retirees).
   3. the impact of the increasing numbers retiring without home ownership and losing the ability to either find work or ability to continue to work.
   4. the mismatch between the migration policy in support of a low wage economy approach and the supply of affordable housing (renting or owning).
   • Nic the NZer 3.1

     15 May 2024 at 9:15 am

     Your first point is a very destructive and essentially neo-liberal way of looking at demographic changes. The aging pressure on the health system is pressure on the provision of treatment, the number of trained medical professionals and things like GP retirement rates. If those people are available to the country however then the government can always afford to pay them.

     This follows from the fact that the government (via the RBNZ) is the monopoly source of $NZ which is the coin health professionals work for in this country. In fact if the New Zealand economy in some way needed to save up the money to clear payments in advance then it would be clearly impossible for New Zealand to clear its daily payments today, from looking at the expansion of daily payments since the 1980s.

     You could argue that exports pay for imports and that may be shifted by demographic shifts but the country is apparently quite far from struggling to be able to import things. Exporters overseas seem more than happy to just save their regular surplus of $NZ as it stands.

     Its the impact of demographic shifts on the real, not the financial, side of the economy which are relevant. Yes, this also applies to the Cullen Fund.
     • SPC 3.1.1

       15 May 2024 at 10:03 am

       Your first point is a very destructive and essentially neo-liberal way of looking at demographic changes.

       No, it is not.

       The aging pressure on the health system is pressure on the provision of treatment, the number of trained medical professionals and things like GP retirement rates.

       As I said

       no provision nor planning for the 2030-2050 health care cost (and pressure on supply of health services).

       You are speaking, as is your want, on funding of spending.

       Until you change the way government (budget and debt finance etc) operates, your sniping at the concerns of others is what is destructive, rather than constructive.
       • tWig 3.1.1.1

         15 May 2024 at 3:54 pm

         Two thumbs up, agree SPC, too much of the rw biased debate thrown up here is solely about the evil of government spend on citizen welfare. But remains quiet on state welfare for corporates (e.g. bank bailouts, corporate environmental damage remediated at public cost, etc).

         A just government focuses on maximising the first, by managing a healthy economic environment and running effective health, education and social support systems.
4. Phillip ure 4

   15 May 2024 at 12:34 pm

   Wow ..!…Biden slaps 100% tariff on Chinese e.v.'s…

   Tho' with the new seagull costing ten grand u.s….100% tariff only takes it to twenty grand…

   The u.s. auto industry…as it is now…is screwed whichever way they turn….

   Their whole business model is dead in the water…(Europe too ..)

   It could be good news for us here ..

   A flood of cheap electric vehicles hitting our shores… would be welcomed with open arms…
   • SPC 4.1

     15 May 2024 at 12:39 pm

     Nice little earner for the US government – anyone opposing it will be seen as pro China and against American companies.
     • Phillip ure 4.1.1

       15 May 2024 at 1:41 pm

       An rnz commentator noted that it is also an election ploy ..

       Aimed at those swing states that are populated by auto manufacturing industries…

       But that doesn't alter the fact it is endgame for those industries…

       ..it won't save them…
   • Bearded Git 4.2

     15 May 2024 at 2:57 pm

     BYD are building a factory in Mexico from where tariffs to sell EV's in the USA will not apply. It has currently ruled out exporting to the USA from there, but that won’t last. Biden is protecting his smokestack dinosaur auto industry thus allowing it to continue to sell outdated ICE technology. This always ends in tears.

     https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/chinese-carmaker-byd-launches-low-cost-dolphin-mini-ev-mexico-2024-02-28/

     China has a huge markets for its EV's in Europe (though they are pondering tariffs) China, Thailand, Malaya, Indonesia, Mexico, Japan (currently small but BYD is setting up a 100 dealerships there) NZ, Australia, Philippines, Viet Nam, etc etc etc
5. newsense 5

   15 May 2024 at 1:50 pm

   So any volunteers for these 35 schools?

   Give Auckland Grammar to Destiny Church. That should make the next Epsom election an interesting one…

   Looks like they can do what they want? Followed David Farrier’s work on his old Catholic high school where gay kids are taught that they should suppress themselves…this is within the current system and despite investigations and complaints still seems to be a key piece of dogma or doctrine or curriculum whatever these words mean.

   I assume people with money and interest in schools will be an array of religious groups.
   • Belladonna 5.1

     15 May 2024 at 2:10 pm

     I suspect that a chunk of those schools will be those previously charter schools who were forcibly converted to integrated under the previous government.

     I doubt that Auckland Grammar is likely to be one of them. They effectively operate as a private school already – within the State system. Using their location as a proxy for limiting enrollment to wealthy families. As do other schools in wealthy suburbs in many large cities.

     Destiny Church would be highly unlikely to have the funds or expertise to take Grammar over (which I'm quite sure you know, and it was a mischievous comment)

     IIRC, the charter schools set up last time, mostly weren't religious ones (since these can already be established as integrated schools under the current education system). But you can review the list yourself, and check

     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_schools_in_New_Zealand#List_of_former_partnership_schools
     • Incognito 5.1.1

       15 May 2024 at 2:20 pm

       I suspect that a chunk of those schools will be those previously charter schools who were forcibly converted to integrated under the previous government.

       That might turn out to be wishful thinking.

       Meanwhile, one school that might go back to being a charter school is Whangarei’s Te Kāpehu Whetū.

       https://www.nzherald.co.nz/kahu/kura-kaupapa-maori-unlikely-to-jump-on-acts-charter-schools-waka/HEOYROBIBZEZHMIZVCH66HMNRY/
       • Traveller 5.1.1.1

         15 May 2024 at 2:33 pm

         Interesting to read the reasons Raewyn Tipene gave for revisiting the charter school model:

         Raewyn Tipene opened Whangārei-based Te Kāpehu Whetu in 2014 as part of the original kura hourua charter school initiative and then took the option to turn it into a special character school when Labour scrapped the policy.

         She says one result of the switch was that NCEA and University Entrance results went backwards, from being among the top in Te Taitokerau.

         “The pressure goes off. The expectation of staff isn’t as high as it is under charter schools. If the policy is similar to what we’ve had in the past, we would think very seriously about shifting back,” she says.

         My emphasis added.
         • newsense 5.1.1.1.1

           15 May 2024 at 2:38 pm

           But, the Ministry of Education concluded that last time around the monitoring was inadequate and apart from two schools, there was no independent evidence they were doing a better job than comparable state schools – in fact, their results might have been inaccurate or even fabricated.
           https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/516813/doubts-about-value-results-from-charter-schools-education-figures

           Your minister is lying to you and engaging in a culture war where students are collateral. But I’m glad you at least consider it important enough for you both to be here to defend him.
           • Traveller 5.1.1.1.1.1

             15 May 2024 at 5:10 pm

             Yet Raewyn Tipene claims that teachers had higher expectations of them with the charter school model. My view is there were problems with the previous model that would have been ironed out, if they were not cancelled (for purely ideological reasons IMHO).
         • KJT 5.1.1.1.2

           17 May 2024 at 1:54 pm

           She says one result of the switch was that NCEA and University Entrance results went backwards, from being among the top in Te Taitokerau.

           Yes. Funny that. When they had to meet the same assessment criteria as State schools, they couldn't get the same self declared results.
           • Traveller 5.1.1.1.2.1

             17 May 2024 at 4:17 pm

             You conveniently missed the part where said The pressure goes off. The expectation of staff isn’t as high as it is under charter schools.

             That is obvious.
             • KJT …

               17 May 2024 at 4:48 pm

               Yes. I'm sure the pressure on staff to meet bullshit KPI's and fudge assessments, is less under the public system.
               • Traveller …

                 17 May 2024 at 4:57 pm

                 I doubt that. You don't think public schools game NCEA? You don’t think charter schools have KPI’s?
     • newsense 5.1.2

       15 May 2024 at 2:28 pm

       You’re on the Shore aren’t you? How about Rangitoto? Nice chunky case of unrealised profits there.

       Or Westlake? Lots of extracurriculars to monetise stealthily.

       Or perhaps somewhere slightly smaller, more boutique where unqualified teachers could be trialed and budgets reduced, like Long Bay college?

       I mean it all depends on the takeover- if it is done with government assistance (and $153 million is set aside) and with borrowing against the assets to be acquired well, the sky is the limit really.

       Don’t be a hypocrite- if it’s a great idea get it going at your local school today!
       • newsense 5.1.2.1

         15 May 2024 at 2:35 pm

         The money will establish 15 new charter schools and convert 35 state schools in 2025 and 2026, depending on demand and suitability.

         https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/516744/watch-charter-schools-to-get-153m-in-new-funding-in-budget-2024

         Bit different to the 12 on Belladonna’s list. That’s 50 schools. A massive experiment and culture war attempt to damage education for the same reason journalism got its takedown.
       • Traveller 5.1.2.2

         15 May 2024 at 2:38 pm

         Iwi is already buying school land.

         Iwi buys school's land – Times

         In fact they've become the MoE's biggest landlords!

         Historical land ownership deal for iwi secured in land back efforts. (nzte.govt.nz)
         • newsense 5.1.2.2.1

           15 May 2024 at 2:42 pm

           This part of this government’s land owning gentry?

           Buy the land, set the curriculum and employ anyone you feel like to staff the school? Already a tax exempt landlord? Now be exempt from various employment laws and much else besides!
           • Traveller 5.1.2.2.1.1

             15 May 2024 at 3:16 pm

             Well that's a stretch. I'm not aware of any of the Iwi land owners doing that.
       • newsense 5.1.2.3

         15 May 2024 at 2:48 pm

         Please don’t be shy with that list of 35!
         Why shouldn’t it be Grammar? This will lead to greater standards and accountability according to its MP.
       • Belladonna 5.1.2.4

         15 May 2024 at 4:05 pm

         Not sure where you're going with these examples – I'd be surprised if any of the schools you mention had any interest in going 'charter' -they're already successful under the current rules.

         The push is more likely to be from special situation schools – like this case.

         https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/125672364/parents-devastated-as-government-rejects-state-school-for-children-with-special-needsgoing to be for schools which are failing to be looking at a different model.
         • Traveller 5.1.2.4.1

           15 May 2024 at 4:24 pm

           "In a letter informing Poole that his application was unsuccessful, Hipkins said one reason for declining it was “that there are available supports for all learners in existing state schools”." That’s something parents of current and former Mt Hobson students firmly reject. Jo Martin’s daughter went through the school, and it was only thanks to the teachers that her ADHD, or attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, was picked up, she said. She was hoping her son, currently in year 3, would be able to go there in a few years. He has autism and ADHD, and there is “no support for him that is funded by the Government”, Martin said. She currently pays $2700 a term for her son to get eight hours of teacher aide support a week. It was “infuriating” to be consistently told the state system “has all the supports required”, she said.

           [If you have nothing to say then say nothing and don’t spam this site with copy-pasta. One of your other comments today (https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-15-05-2024/#comment-1999776) was already bordering on being vacuous and not adding anything useful to debate, as was this one (https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-14-05-2024/#comment-1999794) with a rather arbitrary and pointless ‘addition’ and copy-pasta from an unidentified source. This is your warning – Incognito]
           • Incognito 5.1.2.4.1.1

             15 May 2024 at 4:55 pm

             Mod note
             • Traveller …

               15 May 2024 at 5:04 pm

               Apologies. The one above is a direct quote from Belladonna's link. In future I will repost the link.
               • Incognito …

                 15 May 2024 at 5:19 pm

                 We can all see that it’s a direct copy-pasta from that link. What’s lacking is [your] commentary, e.g., what’s the [your] point, what it is the significance, what does it add to the discussion, etc? Don’t play dummy with me!
         • newsense 5.1.2.4.2

           17 May 2024 at 8:12 am

           Guinea pigs should be home grown in the Epsom electorate because that’s the best place for chickens to come home to roost.

           35 schools full of students are to be given up to this American ideology.

           Don’t let them shit in your backyard, if they won’t shit in theirs, because if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck it’s probably another reheated, half baked idea to increase private profits or interests inside the public sphere, inside our shared education estate.

           As much as we are sold innovation, what we are getting is another attack on a middle class salary. Journalists went with David’s glee echoing behind them. Undercutting another public minded, community minded job where you might, with luck and hard work, get on the property ladder is the goal.
           • Belladonna 5.1.2.4.2.1

             17 May 2024 at 10:58 am

             Epsom already has both private and decile 10 state schools – they have little need for charter schools – and probably little parental desire to switch. i.e. the parents are already happy with the schooling options. Remembering that the highly wealthy decile 10 Auckland 'Grammars' are effectively integrated schools – operating in their own little niche.

             You seem to be forgetting that all charter schools will automatically fail, if there is no parental desire to move their kids away from the state (or private, or integrated) school system.

             The government isn't forcing any charter school to be set up in any electorate. Nor are they forcing parents to send their kids there.

             Note that teachers in charter schools (previously) seemed to be pretty happy with their salaries (not to mention the conditions and support). Hardly an attack on middle-class salaries…

             https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/charter-school-pays-top-dollar-for-teachers/YWPRDQJVKG2GVUPIDI4ILCQ2ZI/
6. SPC 6

   15 May 2024 at 1:56 pm

   Caitlin Clark, the WNBA player that people know about, gets a lesson first up – no walk ups for a three point shot and no easy drives for a lay up at the higher level. Her team beaten by 20 points by a top 4 team of the previous year.

   She needs to be faster, stronger and fitter to perform as she did at college level – so for the meantime, play within the team to get and give good three point looks and passes for others to drive to the hoop.
   • Belladonna 6.1

     15 May 2024 at 2:15 pm

     Perhaps you could explain the connection to left politics or society in this comment – because it is certainly not apparent.

     If you just want to talk about sports – perhaps your own social media would be a better venue.
     • SPC 6.1.1

       15 May 2024 at 2:30 pm

       Sure, the rising role of women's sport is a phenomena in society. WNBA is the sport reflecting this is in the USA atm.

       We had discussions about the Women’s World Cup football last year

       The Women’s World Cup rugby the year before that and the men’s last year.

       Even test cricket.

       Sure I get it, not all women have any time for sport.

       Skyrocketing viewership, sold-out arenas, young stars

       https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5486973/2024/05/13/wnba-new-era-expansion-charter-flights/

       …For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose ….
   • Binders full of women 6.2

     15 May 2024 at 8:16 pm

     What me and my daughter are finding fascinating is the changing face of the NBA. It's no longer 90% USA Black and 10% USA White. Yeah sure there was always a Manut Bol, or a Yao Ming… but as almost tokens… now Giannis, Luka, Nikola, Giljous-Alexander, and a heap of other Balkans players. Nikol looks so uncoordinated and slow… my daughter loves his back story..fat kid who no one wanted to play with…. and guess who he married?? yup–high school sweetheart from Serbia
     • SPC 6.2.1

       15 May 2024 at 8:25 pm

       https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zach_Edey
       • Binders full of women 6.2.1.1

         15 May 2024 at 8:40 pm

         Boilermakers!!! More a Tarheels man myself… anyone but the evil empire…Duke.
7. newsense 7

   15 May 2024 at 2:19 pm

   From the Minister and Prime Minister who didn’t know the sums when in opposition- neither had any idea what each prisoner cost the taxpayer per year when fronting an announcement – comes the bottomless pit of hard and tough and strong on crime.

   The movement since the 19th C to consider humanity when we incarcerate and remove rights has somewhat bypassed this pair also. A mega-prison is already a mega failure:

   Workman’s in-depth analysis from 2017 showed mega-prisons in the UK, France and Canada were more likely to be unsafe than smaller prisons, lead to the use of force to control prisoners, have a negative effect on rehabilitation and reintegration, and breed harmful culture.

   More than six years on, Workman says his warning holds true.

   He told Newsroom there were some “disturbing” parts of the old proposal, particularly the plan to house minimum- and medium-security prisoners in a high-security prison – something that would breach both New Zealand laws and the Mandela Rules.

   On top of that the advice given to the minister about the prison seems to be MIA and there is no plan or business case, just an announcement. Apparently there is advice according to the PM, but it has vanished.

   Just the ladies who get the boot? Minister Mitchell and PM Luxon can be a numbers free zone of hardness and strength and a wealth of apparent incompetence, but only the women in hospital pass portfolios get tough on incompetenced out of office?
8. SPC 8

   15 May 2024 at 3:48 pm

   The PM has done a pre budget speech.

   The highlights

   Prelude – now is now and 2040 is later.

   A goal of three achievements

   A more dynamic and productive economy, with higher living standards and more opportunity. A country where Kiwis return home in search of a better life, instead of leaving in pursuit of higher incomes.

   We already leave home for higher wages, then return home in search of a better life.

   More opportunity has come via the internet (ability to work locally as part of the digital economy). A more dynamic and productive economy and higher living standards, Key promised this in 2008.

   But rising property values to wages diminished living standards and investment in property resulted in CG for some, but no improvement in productivity.

   Public services defined, delivered and evaluated through the lens of social investment. Funding devolved to communities, so Kiwis achieve their potential, leading healthier, happier lives.

   I am not sure enabling water companies to borrow more and over longer time frames, and local users can pay for it in water charges, is the start of this, or something different. It would be good if everyone had a primary health provider …and access to affordable dental care and schools with say 30 to 25 to 20 per classroom.

   A comprehensive response to climate change, both on track to achieve our ambitious emissions targets, and resilient to the challenges of a more volatile world.

   I have no words, words …

   https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2024/05/transcript-prime-minister-christopher-luxon-s-full-pre-budget-speech.html
   • Maurice 8.1

     15 May 2024 at 3:54 pm

     All sounds a bit like 'Fundamental Transformation' to me!

     Winding back the 'transformations' the previous Government failed to cement in to place?
     • SPC 8.1.1

       15 May 2024 at 3:56 pm

       Use of those two words together is something to do, either at the beginning or end of a great speech.
   • SPC 8.2

     15 May 2024 at 3:58 pm

     How can one have words in response to that, when he goes on to say

     We are ending the war on farmers, starting by cancelling the Ute Tax last year. Now we're slashing through a jungle of red and green tape. Modifying, delaying, and cancelling a raft of rules and regulations – SNAs, freshwater, winter grazing, or slope rules.

     The end of SNA’s, one of Shaw’s concerns on leaving, he sees his new job as achieving what this government is not that serious about, reduced carbon etc.
     • Hunter Thompson II 8.2.1

       17 May 2024 at 8:58 am

       Looks like National has ended the "war on farmers" so those farmers, or at least a good proportion of them, can continue the war on our environment: https://www.waikatoregion.govt.nz/community/whats-happening/news/media-releases/green-stream-complaints-result-in-fines-totalling-244000/
   • SPC 8.3

     15 May 2024 at 4:21 pm

     The comparison of past public spending to GDP growth, without reference to the pandemic is par for political discourse.

     In that category would go claiming the planning for the Interceptor Project and its delivery was because of a recent deal with Mayor Brown, as per debt financing via balance sheet separation (as the last government was intending also).

     As a bard might put it. I did not come for the time out bell, or to whistle, but hoped at least to stand and cheer, rather than clap politely.
   • SPC 8.4

     15 May 2024 at 4:27 pm

     As Prime Minister, I set two targets in Education: 80 per cent achievement in reading, writing and maths at Year 8, and 80 per cent of students attending school regularly.

     That might sound straightforward, but delivering those targets will be a huge challenge. Only around half of students are achieving where they should be today – well south of our 80 per cent target – and more than half our kids don't attend school regularly now.

     The standard for regular attendance is 90% of the time – one day off every 2 weeks.

     Winter has always been problematic, omicron infections occur 12 months of the year. Children of families changing rentals regularly – have difficulty getting to their old school before they get enrolled at a new one. Some children look after others (parents working and shift work sleep cycles etc), and some teens work jobs so the rent is paid.

     So good luck – but the educational achievement is via smaller class sizes in state schools (and or better teacher support).
   • Ad 8.5

     15 May 2024 at 5:49 pm

     By the end of their first year, they can be accountable for these metrics:

     – unemployment will spike to 6.5%

     – GDP growth will be at or near 0%

     – our trade deficit will remain negative

     – house prices may go up 3-4%, but so will rent prices, and the house waiting list

     – gang membership won't decrease

     – the % of children going to school won't improve

     – our economy will remain narrow and reliant on agricultural commodities and just two importing countries

     – Households will continue to have on average over $170,000 in debt, and home ownership rates will tick below 60% of the population

     – our jails will be full again

     – our hospital and treatment waiting lists will be the same or worse.

     – the minor tax threshold adjustments will be eaten up by transport and rent costs

     This government reminds me more and more of the Richardson-Bolger-Shipley era. Lots of pain, no reward, no direction.
9. tWig 9

   15 May 2024 at 4:29 pm

   Some info on charter schools:

   "In 2018, New Zealand spent USD 9 934 per student at primary, secondary and post-secondary non-tertiary education" OECD education spend data.

   BHNews on charter schools at 1h:10, Chewie rips into Charter schools, including a claim that the cost of charter schools before pre student was USD22 000 pa (1h:14) (twice that of the state system), and 2019 government advisory report on charter schools (which seems to have disappeared from the education office website) which listed one charter school org that creamed off $500K into a family trust without any reason given.
   • SPC 9.1

     15 May 2024 at 7:40 pm

     I do like the fact that Maori under charter schools get smaller classes and thus a better chance. Labour should say they like that part of the concept but would like to reduce class sizes (and or more teacher aide support) in state (zone) schools too.
     • Belladonna 9.1.1

       15 May 2024 at 8:25 pm

       Or those schools who want to offer this, could become charter schools.
10. Mike the Lefty 10

    15 May 2024 at 7:06 pm

    Charter schools are one step towards privatisation of education. The next step for Seymour will be education vouchers, like his hero the Great Rogernome, wanted to do.
    • Belladonna 10.1

      15 May 2024 at 8:29 pm

      Education vouchers will be resisted to the death by the residents of the 'double Grammar zone' (and the equivalent in other areas). Their house prices are predicated on automatic qualification for one of the 'top' schools (just look at the real estate advertising).

      It's most unlikely to be introduced in the state system. Although, it could well be on the agenda for parents of kids going to private schools.

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