Open mike 15/09/2012

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, September 15th, 2012 - 161 comments
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Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the link to Policy in the banner).

Step right up to the mike…

161 comments on “Open mike 15/09/2012 ”

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  1. Carol 1
    15 September 2012 at 7:16 am

    Yesterday on Nine-to-Noon, a spokeswoman for the Ministry of Education (Lesley Longstone, Secretary of Education), responded to questions about whether there was an underlying plan behind the Christchurch school closures that had nothing to do with quake damage. She said the plan was to reconfigure the range of schools with an eye to making positive changes for the future. She explained it as something rational and good for Christchurch.

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/2532193/schools-shake-up-in-christchurch.asx

    Parata has also said as much:

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/canterbury-earthquake/115789/13-schools-to-close,-others-to-merge-in-christchurch

    Ms Parata told principals the rebuild includes some tough decisions.

    “At the same time, it’s also about propositions for some new opportunities, for some new ways of providing education, for some whole of life campuses, for some shared facilities. And I think those are exciting opportunities – not just for Christchurch – but for the rest of New Zealand to look at and think about.”

    Others are not so sure, and are concerned the government is taking the opportunity to change Christchurch schools, for benefit the better off Cantabrians, at the expense of the less well-off, and to further the NAct government’s agenda for education.

    Green MP Catherine Delahunty sys:

    http://www.greens.org.nz/press-releases/school-closure-criteria-needs-be-made-clear

    Friday, 14 Sep 2012 | Press Release
    …
    “It’s right for these decisions be made on the criteria of the state of buildings and land and population changes but we need to know what other criteria were used.

    “I want to know if the decisions are based on schools’ educational achievement and if the failed national standards were used at all.

    “National standards don’t work and should never be used to make decisions about which schools will be closed.

    “Educational achievement is a resourcing issue, not a performance one but actually resourcing the schools that need it in Christchurch is apparently off the negotiating table.

    “Moving kids from school to school to school, as will happen if these plans are carried out, is going to be the most damaging for their achievement.

    “I have requested an urgent debate for the next sitting day in Parliament as we need to hear more about how these decisions were made.

    John Minto is concerned that the Christchurch plans involve introducing Carter Schools:

    http://mana.net.nz/2012/09/13-public-schools-in-christchurch-to-close-how-many-will-reopen-as-charter-schools/

    It appears the wholesale closure of public schools in the city is at least in part to make room for charter schools to take their place.

    We saw this happen after Hurricane Katrina devastated the US city of New Orleans and private profiteers worked with the government to close the city’s public schools and reopen them as charter schools run for private profit.

    Will some of these 13 schools be closed as public schools only to be reopened in 2014 as profit-making charter schools? Which sites have been quietly earmarked by government ministers and the private business lobbyists as sites for charter schools?

    Christchurch was specifically targeted for at least one charter school at the time coalition agreement between Act and National after last year’s election. Auckland was the other centre suggested for a charter school.

    Since then Act’s ambitions have grown with Charter Schools promoter Catherine Isaac now talking publicly of up to 30 charter schools. How many of these will be in Christchurch?

    People need to keep asking Key, Parata, and the Ministry, exactly what IS their plan for Christchurch schools, and how much this will be followed across NZ.

    Disaster capitalism (see Naomi Klein): alive and well in Christchurch.

    • Tiger Mountain 1.1
      15 September 2012 at 7:27 am

      As usual us poor lefties that raised disaster capitalism happening in Christchurch were dismissed “this is New Zealand, don’t be paranoid” etc. The education unions will leap onto this with a growl hopefully if there is a scent of charter schools being snuck in.

      • Carol 1.1.1
        15 September 2012 at 8:02 am

        And it’s not just the specter of Charter Schools that’s a problem here, but that involves a new train for consultants to scoop themselves up some gravy:

        http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/ED1209/S00116/education-renewal-in-canterbury.htm

        Education renewal in Canterbury
        Friday, 14 September 2012, 6:44 pm
        Press Release: Ministry of Education
        …
        Education renewal in Canterbury

        New schools part of greater Christchurch Education Renewal

        Christchurch will get new schools and others will be completely rebuilt as part of the $1 billion investment in education renewal in greater Christchurch.

        The Secretary for Education, Lesley Longstone, says enhanced provision at Pegasus Town and Rolleston have been confirmed while Halswell School will be rebuilt.

        Ms Longstone said: “We are looking to have new and innovative designs for these schools that give learners across greater Christchurch 21st-century learning environments.

        “The 10-year renewal plan and investment announced yesterday by Ministers allows us a great opportunity to develop new ways of delivering education for all ages.
        …
        Over the coming months, the Ministry will be very keen to hear what people have to say.
        …
        Consultants will also be engaged to begin design work for Halswell as the first step in project planning with a view to physical works beginning early in 2013.

        Does anyone else feel that Ms Longstone’s PR-speak sounds a little 1984-ish?

        • ianmac 1.1.1.1
          15 September 2012 at 10:00 am

          Thanks Carol. You have put together a lot of work there. Much to think about.
          John Campbell was assured by Parata that each school will be consulted. John would return to the subject down the track.
          Consultation??? But to listen and act on those responses? Yeah right!

          • Puddleglum 1.1.1.1.1
            15 September 2012 at 3:41 pm

            I think here’s your answer about consultation, ianmac.

            Also, on the charter school issue, I’ve heard – through the proverbial grapevine – that the government has been rejecting proposals for ‘special character’ state-funded schools in Nelson (two?) and Auckland that are not ‘special character’ for religious reasons.

            That grapevine information came along with suspicion that that was to line-up such initiatives for charter school formats (while allowing religious ‘special character’ initiatives to continue to be state-supported). That is, make it impossible to do something different through the state system (as has been possible until recently) so that the only option is to find some private sector ‘partner’ and go the charter way.

            Perhaps others have more information – or knowledge that shows it is only rumour and has no basis in fact? 

  2. Tiger Mountain 2
    15 September 2012 at 7:20 am

    The worm that turned.
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=10834120

    The simpering John Armstrong misuses his considerable audience reach to try and give two bloggers a telling off. Unfortunately he picks one veteran who has considerable integrity and journalistic skills–Gordon Campbell at Scoop, the other–Bryce Edwards is a new kid on the block who needs more time in the saddle to rate really, as ex Alliance he still seems to have it in for Labour more than the torys at times. But regardless, Bryce does not deserve a pasting from the likes of Nat toady Armstrong.

    Meanwhile two bloggers that desperately need a good spanking for all manner of poor and unethical behaviour–Farrar and Whale, are unlikely to get one in the pages of the Herald.

    • Sanctuary 2.1
      15 September 2012 at 7:34 am

      Yeah, WTF is that all about? Armstrong seems to think any number of journalists like him – part of the establishment, complete with an acceptable ambient neo-liberal bias is OK, but ONE blogger like Bryce Edwards pushing an overtly left wing agenda gaining an audience is some kind of threat to civilization. Armstrong also shows considerable arrogance. He is a real journalist. Campbell and Edwards are not. Therefore he will tolerate them until they become a bit of a threat, then they need to be slapped back into place.

      • tc 2.1.1
        15 September 2012 at 8:47 am

        No he’s not a real journalist, he’s a paid shill and company man writing slogan driven spin using his position as a so called informed commentator.

        His lack of balance is obvious, a dinosaur blathering on in yesterday’s media.

        Hey anybody moticed the ‘new herald’ looks eerily like the independent in the UK, wonder how much someone got paid for that.

    • Carol 2.2
      15 September 2012 at 7:37 am

      Armstrong….. o ha, ha, ha

      🙄

      a few tried and trusted cliches come to mind…. for Armstrong in his glasshouse…. pot meet kettle:

      Cheap shots at press corps based largely on ignorance and show no regard for journalistic accuracy or taste
      Here is a blunt message for a couple of old-school Aro Valley-style socialists:

      Get off our backs. Stop behaving like a pair of tut-tutting old dowagers gossiping in the salons. In short, stop making blinkered, cheap-shot accusations of the kind you made this week – that the media who went with John Key to Vladivostok and Tokyo concentrated on trivia, interviewed their laptops and parroted Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet press releases.

      Gordon Campbell is a far better, critical and well-researched journalist than Armstrong ever will be…. and Armstrong dares to call him and Edwards “blinkered” and ignorant.

      UNBELIEVABLE!

      Oh, but wait. Armstrong is trotting out his excuses for poor journalism, having a cry about pressures of meeting deadlines within a highly pressured international context, dealing with high status pollies. And is using it for a platform to bash bloggers generally.

      If the journalists are not up to the job, they should do something else. And we are all entitled to crtiticise the product journalists turn out…. Here’s another good old cliche….. the proof is in the pudding

      A good blogger holds MSM journalists to account. It’s a new environment, John. Get used to it.

      • ScottGN 2.2.1
        15 September 2012 at 8:09 am

        In what is otherwise an extraordinarily self indulgent load of drivel it’s the last few paragraphs of Armstrong’s column which I found alarming:

        “Edwards’ blog is the extreme example of the fact that most blogsites rely on the mainstream media for their information and then use that information to criticise the media for not stressing something enough or deliberately hiding it.

        Unlike the mainstream media, the blogs are not subject to accuracy or taste – and sometimes even the law.

        It is the ultimate parasitical relationship. And it will not change until the media start charging for use of their material.”

        Is he basically suggesting that charging for content use is a way to stifle criticism?

        • Uturn 2.2.1.1
          15 September 2012 at 8:25 am

          He might be saying saying people with money have no critical thinking skills, or at least have sufficient “breeding” to be polite.

          I disagree about MSM being subject to taste, unless racism and ignorance is a form of polite modern “taste”. In highlighting the parasitical relationship, he nicely avoids his part in the relationship. The dirty dog attracts fleas. In Armstrong’s world, dogs are self cleaning and the best of the best are heavenly creatures with no faults at all – exempt from natural law. If he can’t get rid of his fleas, his owner could give him a bath. Overall, he should be grateful he gets paid for crapping on the carpet.

        • mickysavage 2.2.1.2
          15 September 2012 at 1:04 pm

          Fran O’Sullivan has been having a go at Bryce Edwards for a while essentially because he is a leftie. Looks like she has persuaded Armstrong to have a go as well. What is the bet that Edwards’ Political Roundup column will shortly disappear from the Herald.

          It is a shame really. The column is usually a good summation of what is happening on the blogs and in reality.

    • LynW 2.3
      15 September 2012 at 8:01 am

      Reading Armstrong’s column “Methinks the man doth protest too much!”

    • andy (the other one) 2.4
      15 September 2012 at 8:52 am

      The Poutrage!!!

      Those nasty bloggers must have hit the spot for him to have such a tantrum in print, and why the f*$k did the editor let it go to print, suppose nothing much happened in politics this week. WTF!!!

      Aaaand, Who could forget this zenith of political journalism from his co worker, Audrey Young.

      http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz-government/news/article.cfm?c_id=144&objectid=10610606

    • weka 2.5
      15 September 2012 at 11:28 am

      I had to smile seeing that one of only two comments on Armstrong’s blog post* came from Pete George talking about mutual parasites.

      *’cos let’s be honest, that’s all it is. 

    • Murray Olsen 2.6
      15 September 2012 at 1:35 pm

      Yeah, Armstrong certainly showed his bias there. Whalespew is just a torrent of vile rubbish, hate speech, and thinly veiled physical threats. He’s hardly even a blogger – he cuts and pastes some rubbish and his “army” starts frothing at the mouth. For all their weaknesses, Campbell and Edwards do at least come across as civilised.

    • David H 2.7
      15 September 2012 at 4:21 pm

      And the comments section is a chorus of, Piss off John you are a whiny JK suckup.

  3. belladonna 3
    15 September 2012 at 7:30 am

    Keith Stewart on Radio Live is doing a series interviewing politicians on Saturday nights at 8pm.
    Tonight he has David Shearer on for those interested. Keith is a hard lefty so could be interesting.

  4. muzza 4
    15 September 2012 at 8:37 am

    The number of self-checkout machines in New Zealand will increase by half this year – the first wave of technology which is set to forever change our daily interactions

    “Staff are the best providers of service, of creating a relationship. But staff also give you an opportunity to stuff it up,” said Phil Chant, marketing manager for NCR Australia.

    “You could get someone on their off day. But self-service gives you consistency of service. It gives you speed.”

    According to NCR, that self-service uniformity will soon extend far beyond the supermarket or airport.

    Its machines will see Kiwis able to check in to a hotel, weigh and send a package – even open a bank account by talking to a live video feed of a teller on an ATM screen.

    So when machines have replaced the human jobs, what happens to the humans….

    • tc 4.1
      15 September 2012 at 8:52 am

      To quote an old union official ‘work is disappearing ‘. The scary thing is if that these really bloated inefficient large companies look automation and good process seriously you’d see total carnage in their ranks as swathes of people wouldn’t be required.

      Look at most Finance departments as an example.

      • muzza 4.1.1
        15 September 2012 at 9:07 am

        Was talking with once of the nice human check out staff a couple of weeks back at a supermarket, and she said that the reason she scanned everything so frantically was that if they dont scan anough units per minute on average, when serting the counter, they get a “chat” with the manager…WTF

        The supermarket happened to be Oz owned of course, and no surpirse the wanker above talks negaively about getting people on off days, but positively re consistancy of service &; speed of the machines..

        These arseholes do not give a fcuk about human beings, frankly its rather sickening watching it all play out, and have dimwits, some on this site, trying to argue whats happening to us, is in fact not!

        Edit: AS soon as it is “appropriate” in terms of time to do so, those processes you refer to will become surplus, just like the people involved in those processes. The finacncial sector is what is is with good reasons, which should be crystal clear by now!
        Automation will become the norm, just look at the use of HFT, why the need to people in the front or middle office when the time comes!

    • millsy 4.2
      15 September 2012 at 9:06 am

      Someone needs to come up with a way that people can pay for something using the credit on their mobile. Imagine using your phone as a digital wallet, you pick something up off the shelf, text a code to a number, and the purchase price is taken off your phone credit. Much easier than fumbling with your eftpos card.

    • David H 4.3
      15 September 2012 at 12:12 pm

      I went to my local New World the other day, and just because i was waiting in line for a checkout I was accosted by, I presume a manager, who told me to use the self service checkout. I then informed her that 1: I am allowed to use what ever checkout I like. And 2: if I have to spend money then the least they can do is have someone who A: needs the job, and B: who can give you a welcoming smile and a cheery hello. And I also informed her that if they removed all the checkout staff and only left the auto ones open then I would go else where. She was not amused. (you could see it in her face she just wanted to tell me to piss off. Face like thunder lol)

    • Draco T Bastard 4.4
      15 September 2012 at 1:45 pm

      So when machines have replaced the human jobs, what happens to the humans…

      That is the question. Under the present system a few get richer and everyone else takes another step or two towards poverty and starvation. The rich will, of course, keep blaming the poor for being poor and saying that we can’t afford to do anything about it.

      We need to change the paradigm that we live under.

      • weka 4.4.1
        15 September 2012 at 4:40 pm

        “We need to change the paradigm that we live under.”

        How? 

        • Draco T Bastard 4.4.1.1
          15 September 2012 at 6:32 pm

          Design and promote a new paradigm. One that realises that the purpose of the economy is to support everyone and not just a few. One that listens to everyone and ensures that they have an equal say in the direction that society goes in.

          • Jackal 4.4.1.1.1
            15 September 2012 at 10:34 pm

            I don’t mean to be disparaging, and totally agree that major change is required, but the system isn’t going to simply change because it’s dysfunctional… It will continue to grind on in its dysfunction and the few who have the nous to see it will continue to be ignored by the majority and by those who could effect change.

            Conservatives and liberals aren’t going to give up their advantage without a fight… Which is pretty stupid because what we have now is a corruption of capitalism, whereby wealth is mainly being used to try to generate more wealth and not for the betterment of mankind. The thing that capitalists fail to understand is that more wealth can be generated when the people are fed, housed and clothed properly… A wealthy society also creates more wealth for capitalists. Wealth through subjugation and inequality is a fools agenda.

            The current situation is entirely unsustainable and it’s only a matter of time before it collapses entirely. The problem is the suffering it causes in the mean time. You can work to increase peoples awareness and reduce peoples suffering, but by and large unless you have serious capital, you cannot bring about the downfall of corrupted capitalism or hope to change the current detrimental system… A catch 22 in other words.

            • blue leopard 4.4.1.1.1.1
              15 September 2012 at 10:52 pm

              @ Jackal

              If a “tipping point” in the number of people whom develop “capital” within their heads occur “serious capital” can be overcome.

            • muzza 4.4.1.1.1.2
              16 September 2012 at 9:36 am

              The thing that capitalists fail to understand is that more wealth can be generated when the people are fed, housed and clothed properly… A wealthy society also creates more wealth for capitalists. Wealth through subjugation and inequality is a fools agenda.

              Or the agenda of those who like to watch human suffering,!

              Who says “the capitalists” , if that is even what they are, fail to understand anythng of the sort!

          • weka 4.4.1.1.2
            15 September 2012 at 10:44 pm

            Draco, you’ve just said the same thing, but used more words. I’m asking how ?

            • Colonial Viper 4.4.1.1.2.1
              15 September 2012 at 11:05 pm

              http://rdwolff.com/content/democracy-work

              also, having the Government issue credit into the economy (instead of private banks) to fulfill societal aims, including the setting up of worker owned enterprises and co-operative financing structures.

            • Draco T Bastard 4.4.1.1.2.2
              15 September 2012 at 11:18 pm

              That was the first sentence. Come up with a solution, promote it and then leave the rest to democracy and the failure of the present system.

      • The bald facts 4.4.2
        15 September 2012 at 10:08 pm

        Its been happening for a very long time. How do you think we moved from the stoneage.
        First machine(wheeled carts) replaced serfs carrying things.
        More recently cards replaced horse and buggies.
        And so it will continue as the “workforce” requirements “adjust” to meet current demands.

    • Adele 4.5
      15 September 2012 at 3:11 pm

      Kiaora Muzza

      The local supermarket I use has self-service which has been in place for over a year. However, on chatting to one of the staff recently, the supermarket is thinking to remove self-service as there has been a great increase in the number of ‘grocery items unaccounted for’ through using self-service.

      While they usually have a staff member monitor the use of the six self-service machines they often are not in the position, especially in busy times, to closely inspect the number of items being ‘scanned’ through the system.

      I suspect however that rather than get rid of self-service the supermarket will just increase the level and type of surveillance or input additional technology to prevent losses. Self-service will not completely replace the check-out operator but yes it probably will result in loss of jobs especially for our youth.

      .

      • muzza 4.5.1
        15 September 2012 at 4:29 pm

        Hey Adele,

        It will be up to people to vote with their feet, and start thinking about what/where they spend cash be it on essentials, or luxuries etc.

        It has to be of concern when there are, and have been for some time, companies producing equipment whose use is/will put humans out of jobs, thats got to ring alarm bells for people surely.

        Many Kiwis have voted with their feet and move abroad, plenty will never return, and that leaves the country vulnerable on so many fronts.

        I genuinely am concerned about what has been happening to our country, and the direction we are being lead into, and honestly I don;t believe we are too many years away from major social unrest.

        Sadly it need not be like that, but people have to open their eyes and realise that just because you believe that “im ok jack”, today, only means that there is some additional time you might have before problems come to your door.

        The young of this country, the poor, the elderly, those most vulnerable, are treated so badly, and what are most people doing….asleep at the wheel it seems to me.

        Be well.

        • Draco T Bastard 4.5.1.1
          15 September 2012 at 4:44 pm

          It has to be of concern when there are, and have been for some time, companies producing equipment whose use is/will put humans out of jobs, thats got to ring alarm bells for people surely.

          Nope, it should be a celebration as it then allows those people to go and do something far more interesting and probably higher paid. The problem isn’t the disappearing jobs but that only a few people benefit from those disappearing jobs rather than all of society.

          The young of this country, the poor, the elderly, those most vulnerable, are treated so badly, and what are most people doing….asleep at the wheel it seems to me.

          /agreed.

          • Colonial Viper 4.5.1.1.1
            15 September 2012 at 6:00 pm

            Nope, it should be a celebration as it then allows those people to go and do something far more interesting and probably higher paid.</blockquote

            Doesn't happen that way. Surplus labour means lower wages, even for high skilled positions.

          • muzza 4.5.1.1.2
            16 September 2012 at 9:50 am

            Nope, it should be a celebration as it then allows those people to go and do something far more interesting and probably higher paid. The problem isn’t the disappearing jobs but that only a few people benefit from those disappearing jobs rather than all of society.

            Hey B, yes it should be, but I think you would expect that on current course, its got little to no chance to being that way. So the problem is the disappearing jobs, and also the point along the curve at which lack of jobs become a negative sum game, if we are not past that already.

            We agree that the sytem needs to change, what it becomes is not as important at this stage, as the question of , how that change will come about!

            The only change I am interested initially, is the taking back the control of our money supply. Achieve that and the conversations chnage immediately, and potentially do not require wholesale change.

            Which is why I wonder if someone, or someone’s could successfully base an election run on that issue in silo????

    • Dr Terry 4.6
      15 September 2012 at 5:49 pm

      muzza, we might well ask that question re incoming robotic servicing AND robots for human care.

      • muzza 4.6.1
        16 September 2012 at 9:43 am

        Good Morning Dr Terry,

        If I read your post correctly, you are saying that that “robots/machines” are possibly being created to help us out, help society etc?

    • Vicky32 4.7
      16 September 2012 at 6:30 pm

      So when machines have replaced the human jobs, what happens to the humans….

      Precisely! I notice that in our local Countdown, customers resist using the machines. I also resist them…

  5. captain hook 5
    15 September 2012 at 9:02 am

    well work is not disappearing for some.
    make sure you read yesterdays Dompost.
    there are two very important article by Chris Trotter and Brenda Pilott on the leader page.
    The shadowy Consitutional Advisory Panel and the Local Bodies Act are getting ready to strip the last vestiges of democracy and local input out of the vital institutions that manage the country.
    it seems there is always plenty of work for the lampreys who attach themselves to the government to assist them in sucking the lifeblood out of the people.

    • travellerev 5.1
      15 September 2012 at 9:24 am

      The good news is that when the time comes all we have to do is get rid of one group of vampires: The ones in the Beehive!

    • prism 5.2
      15 September 2012 at 3:53 pm

      captain hook
      This is awkward. I have been looking at the Dompost and cannot find the articles you mentioned. Can you tell me where to go (on the Dompost page) to see them? Do I look for columnists tab at the top for instance? Or do I put their names in search?

  6. travellerev 6
    15 September 2012 at 9:19 am

    Finally!!! 9/11 for Dummies.

    Big photo’s, big letters, simple and blunt. Download for free and give to friends and family.

    • Te Reo Putake 6.1
      15 September 2012 at 9:31 am

      Surely 9/11 from dummies?

      • Pascal's bookie 6.1.1
        15 September 2012 at 9:49 am

        I stopped reading when they dragged out the Madrid fire without mentioning that the Windsor Building,
        Madrid, was supported by reinforced concrete.

        • travellerev 6.1.1.1
          15 September 2012 at 10:11 am

          PB,

          So true!!! WTC 7 was reinforced twice to withstand a nuclear blast but not a BIC lighter. How silly of them to forget!

          • Pascal's bookie 6.1.1.1.1
            15 September 2012 at 11:44 am

            Another top quality link there trav, thanks. But what does it have to do with the Madrid fire?

            Do you care that so many truther documents use the madrid fire in a dishonest fashion?

            Or do you think that because most people won’t do any checking, that it is all ok. That being dishonest is just the best tactic to get people to think what you what them to think?

            It works of course, people don’t check things, telling lies works. I see you skiting about your blog, like I care. But for me, when I see you being dishonest, it makes me discount your views. It is your dishonesty, and the dishonesty of many other truthers, that really convinces me that you are all full of shit.

            Start being honest, and you will start being convincing.

            If you can’t be convincing without being dishonest, then the claims you are tryimg to convince poeple of are probably false.

            • travellerev 6.1.1.1.1.1
              15 September 2012 at 12:54 pm

              PB,

              You’re calling me a liar now?
              For those of you wanting to make up your won mind about the Madrid fire here is PB’s analysis:
              Because the Windsor tower was build with reinforced concrete it could withstand 24 hours of intense fire without collapsing
              According to another genius here Mike E the towers collapsed because they had not central column but only reinforced concrete. 
              Here is the reality: both Twin towers had a core of 47 steel columns AND were build with reinforced concrete.

              The third tower was build around steel columns and reinforced twice against nuclear blasts in it’s close vicinity. Still it came down in 6.5 seconds (Freefall speed) in the path of most resistance. Breaking every law of Physics known to man.

              No Steel framed in human history has ever collapsed due to fire other then the three buildings from the WTC complex. Not even the other four buildings in the same complex which all burned for hours.

              It seems to me the it is PB who is trying to turn and twist events and that perhaps it is actually more accurate to call him a liar but I leave that to your discretion.

              Search terms you might want to go for are Windsor tower, Phillips building, Failed controlled demolition, Steel framed buildings, collapse due to fire, Newton, gravity, laws of Physics.

              People might lie but the laws of physics sort of don’t.

              • Pascal's bookie …
                15 September 2012 at 2:13 pm

                What happened to the top section of the Madrid building Eve?

                What was the difference in construction between the top section and the bottom section, how does that relate to the WTC and why don’t truther sites ever talk about that?

                Not mentioning these things is dishonest.

                Saying that the WTC towers had reinforced concrete, without saying whter or not this was load bearing structural stuff is dishonest.

                People can certainly google and come up with thousands of links talking about the madrid fire and saying that it demonstrates that the wtc buildings wouldn’t have collapsed. truthers have been busy, and they link to all sorts of stuff, pushing up the google rankings of crud.

                But the facts remain.

                So show me your honesty and answer these three questions to the best of your knowledge:

                1) What happened to the top section of the madrid building?

                2) Was the top section of the buidling different to the bottom section in any respect?

                3) If so, were WTC1&2 more like the top section, or the bottom section?

                In your own words please. Let’s discuss like humans. Just throwing me alink to some usually irrelevent link is a fob off, one that ought to be beneath you.

                • travellerev …
                  15 September 2012 at 2:19 pm

                  And all this without a single link supporting these accusations and distortions and innuendo’s!

                  Have a nice day PB! I hope you don’t mind me not validating this crap.

                  Oh, and did I mention it: Lots of people are downloading the 911 for dummies pdf. Keep em coming PB. Keep em coming!

                  • Pascal's bookie …
                    15 September 2012 at 2:30 pm

                    They are questions Eve. I don’t need to provide links to verify questions.

                    Question have answers, you have none however, which is fascinating. It’s almost as if the answers to those questions are things you are not interested in. Do the answers to those questions demonstrate the dishonesty of the truther’s use of the madrid fire eve?

                    Why don’t you show me up here, and demonstrate your honesty

                    Here’s another question, this time about the 6.5 second collapse claim. Who said this?

                    “We screwed up. We had never seen the CBS video when we claimed that it took WTC 7 6.5 seconds to collapse. We only relied on the street video that does not show the Penthouses. By the time we saw the CBS video, we had so much invested in the 6.5-second collapse time, we could not disappoint our supporters who were successfully using the 6.5 free fall time to push 9/11 Truth. We just ignored the evidence.

                    ‘Truth’ funny how you guys keep using that word. A princess bride quote comes to mind.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      15 September 2012 at 5:21 pm

                      PB. I just watched the CBS video and the building collapses in roughly 6.5s. It certainly did not take twice that long to collapse.

                      Further PB it seems that you’ve been had. Jones himself says in a blog post he labels “setting the record straight” that someone has deliberately made up shit (the same shit you quoted actually) and unfairly put his name next to it:

                      I am incorrectly quoted (to put it mildly) in http://911booger.blogspot.com/2007/05/steven-jones-on-wtc-7-collapse-we…. :
                      “Steven Jones (above, left) admitted today that he and other 9/11 researchers “screwed up on the collapse time of WTC 7. We blew it.”

                      No, I never said that. The blog goes on with its despicable misrepresentations, putting words in my mouth that I never said:

                      “Responding to the overnight controversy, Steven Jones announced this morning that WTC 7 did indeed take over 13 seconds to collapse. ‘We screwed up. We had never seen the CBS video when we claimed that it took WTC 7 6.5 seconds to collapse. We only relied on the street video that does not show the Penthouses. By the time we saw the CBS video, we had so much invested in the 6.5-second collapse time, we could not disappoint our supporters who were successfully using the 6.5 free fall time to push 9/11 Truth. We just ignored the evidence.’ ”

                      I supposedly said this in May, 2007. No, I never said that and it is simply not true. I first saw this CBS video in 2005 and I have shown it many times, starting in 2005. I have repeatedly noted that I began timing when the corner of the roof begins to move, and that is how I derived the near-free-fall time of 6.5 seconds for the WTC7 roof-fall. To have me say, “We just ignored the evidence” is grossly incorrect, unfair and despicable.

                      http://www.911blogger.com/news/2010-08-23/setting-record-straight-regarding-accelerated-fall-wtc-building-7

                    • Pascal's bookie …
                      15 September 2012 at 6:34 pm

                      it only takes 6.5 if you ignore the penthouses, there is no reason to do that. I’ve seen arguments that there were two series of explosions, the first to weaken the structure, the second to bring it down. But that doesn’t explain why we see the penthouses fall. they aren’t holding the structure up, so bringing them down first makes no sense. (and i’ll note here that there are loads of controlled demolition videos on the web. Could you link me to some that sound like the WTC buildings coming down?)

                      But that’s only a problem for people trying to make the collapse look like something. NIST didn’t have that problem, so they just described what was most likely to have happened based on the evidence.

                      Other than that it’s one guy’s word against another’s, and Jones denial is pretty shifty,
                      ‘I deny this bit most strenuously, those particular words are not what I said’ etc, and so on.

                      You’d laugh if John Banks put out a denial like that

                      .

                    • Murray Olsen …
                      15 September 2012 at 6:47 pm

                      Steven Jones is a really interesting guy. From Wiki:
                      Jones’ interests extend to archaeometry, solar energy,[2][3] and, like numerous professors at BYU, archaeology and the Book of Mormon.[4] For example, he has sought radiocarbon dating evidence of the existence of pre-Columbian horses in the Americas,[5] though initial results have indicated the equine remains tested are modern in origin,[6] and has interpreted archaeological evidence from the ancient Mayans as supporting his faith’s belief that Jesus Christ visited America.[7]

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      15 September 2012 at 9:49 pm

                      so they just described what was most likely to have happened based on the evidence.

                      I’d read that their analysis didn’t cover the actual collapse, only events leading up to that point.

                    • travellerev …
                      17 September 2012 at 10:39 am

                      Not a single link and only one provable false quote and you call me a liar?

                      If you are reduced to this PB I suggest you have nothing at all.
                      My links will do the talking and none of them are based on lies like your quote.

                      Calling someone a liar without any supportive evidence is the last resort of the intellectual bankrupt.

                      Very sad.

                      Yep CV, very sad indeed but he left awesome testimonials

              • Murray Olsen …
                16 September 2012 at 5:00 am

                How did the building break the laws of Physics? My understanding is that, unlike traffic laws (for example), the laws of physics cannot actually be broken. And what is meant by “breaking every law of Physics known to man”? How was Faraday’s Law broken?

            • Murray Olsen 6.1.1.1.1.2
              15 September 2012 at 1:43 pm

              Ev is so blessed with insight that lesser mortals such as ourselves are not even allowed to think about ways her “information” could be checked. She sent me a message mentioning two things I’ve known about for more than 40 years to demonstrate my ignorance of the real world. Blind belief is all that is required, or be labelled a denialist. Pffft.

              • travellerev …
                15 September 2012 at 2:14 pm

                Oh Murray,

                I had a modicum of respect before this but I can let rip now.

                LOL. Fuck, you’re showing yourself to be a nasty vindictive little squirt don’t you?

                Great thing you can’t chuck me off here like you did with others on a facebook page who had opinions other than you. And how silly to bring that intolerance and vindictiveness here!

                • Murray Olsen …
                  15 September 2012 at 2:48 pm

                  Given the stuff you do respect, I won’t be losing any sleep.
                  And yes, I am one of the mods of a Facebook group that booted people for abuse, trolling, and constant ranting about all sorts of contradictory conspiracy theories.
                  Now keep obsessing and not answering questions. It’s what you’re best at, after all. Let rip.

                  • travellerev …
                    16 September 2012 at 9:50 am

                    Interesting PB,

                    You are giving a quote without any reference to who might have said it and what site you got it from and you are accusing me of being dishonest?

                    You skirting very close to classic shill behaviour here PB. It is one thing not to agree and try to disprove my assertions but it is entirely different to quote provably false quotes from debunking sites.

                    For those of you interested in trying to find out what really happened:

                    First of all steel framed buildings DO NOT COLLAPSE INTO THEIR OWN FOOTPRINT in 6.5, 14, 350 or 3000 seconds as the result of office fires EVER!

                    That makes PB’s argument moot.

                    The only reason steel framed buildings collapse into their own footprint is when they are “wired” for a CONTROLLED DEMOLITION.

                    Here is a video made by David Chandler. David Chandler was the man who forced NIST to admit that WTC 7 fell in free fall speed for 2.5 seconds of the 6.5 seconds it took to collapse.

                    In those 2.5 seconds 18 FLOORS of the 47 story building fell to the ground without any resistance. That is impossible unless it was imploded with the help of demolition charges.

                    Here is a Danny Jowenko a Dutch Demolition expert (Who recently died in a freak car accident) and his reaction when he is told that the WTC7 building he just described as a classic controlled demolition 

                    Here is a fragment of an Italian documentary. In it the fire fighters admit to foreknowledge of the collapse and you see the reaction of two policemen when they hear the first explosions after which the building starts to come down.

                    You see what I mean PB? LINKS so people can make up their own mind!

                    • Pascal's bookie …
                      17 September 2012 at 7:51 am

                      lol.

                      Calling me dishonest doesn’t make it so.

                      Do you know what ‘begging the question’ means? It’s a logical fallacy, and here’s an example of it:

                      First of all steel framed buildings DO NOT COLLAPSE INTO THEIR OWN FOOTPRINT in 6.5, 14, 350 or 3000 seconds as the result of office fires EVER!

                      And none of your links discuss the simple and relevant questions I asked about the madrid fire.

                      Why are you avoiding those questions Eve?

                      You spend a lot of time researching this stuff, surely you could find the answers, surely you have come across them before, surely you don’t just look at one side of the debate right?

                    • travellerev …
                      17 September 2012 at 8:32 am

                      For those of you interested in what happened at the Windsor tower and made curious by PB’s insinuating questions the following:

                      The Windsor tower was a 106m high skyscraper in Madrid, Spain. After an extensive fire which lasted 24 hours the top floors pancaked and collapsed around the inner core.

                      To PB this proves that all buildings will collapse like the Twin towers and WTC 7 if exposed to fire.

                      What PB suggests is that people like me don’t want to talk about that because it disproves our theory about controlled demolition.

                      Here are a few links for you to brush up on the fire, the collapse and what some pre-eminent 911 research websites say about it and I will let you make up your own mind.

                      Here is a 1 minute BBC video which clearly shows that chunks do indeed fall of the building after huge fires have raged for hours and hours.

                      Here is a link to a well established 911 research site clearly describing the falling chunks too with the added advantage of actually describing the huge differences in building technique and other significant information such as a timeline showing that the collapse was partial and significantly slower than the freefall speed of the collapse of WTC 7 and more importantly that the collapse followed the laws of physics such as falling along the path of least resistance.

                      And here is Dr Frank Legge’s take on it illustrated by me with photo’s of both the Windsor tower, the burning Twin tower and of a woman standing in the hole created by one of the planes showing how there was no obvious fire and heat in the area where there were supposed to be furnace level heat bringing the Tower down.

                      And here is the Journal for 911 studies with articles written by Scientists, Engineers, Architects and others if you want tot learn more.

                      And PB stop digging that hole you’re already in. You’re getting to be quite desperate with your dishonest fake quotes and innuendo. I wonder why?

                    • travellerev …
                      17 September 2012 at 8:33 am

                      Oops, Purgatory again.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      17 September 2012 at 8:37 am

                      Here is a Danny Jowenko a Dutch Demolition expert (Who recently died in a freak car accident)

                      Saddened to hear this.

                    • Pascal's bookie …
                      17 September 2012 at 8:58 am

                      So the one link you provide that is at all relevant says that the madrid building was very different to the WTC buildings, but that the parts of the building that were most like the WTC buildings did collapse.

                      (And we are not talking about ‘chunks’ here, we are talking about the top third of the building)

                      So why is it used as alleged proof that fires won’t cause collapse?

                      Surely that information about the section of the madrid building that did in fact collapse, the section more like the wtc buildings, should have been included in the 911 for dummies leaflet you are promoting.

                      Do you think it is honest to leave that information out Eve?

                    • Pascal's bookie …
                      17 September 2012 at 9:36 am

                      “To PB this proves that all buildings will collapse like the Twin towers and WTC 7 if exposed to fire.”

                      I’ll just leave this one here as a fine example of Eve’s honesty for those who can find me saying or implying anything like it.

                      (HINT: You won’t find me saying anything like that, Eve just can’t help being dishonest. To be fair, her argument requires dishonesty to be at all convincing. Just bear in mind this statement of hers when she accuses others of dishonesty. She just flat out lies.)

        • prism 6.1.1.2
          15 September 2012 at 10:20 am

          Hash comes to mind as the talk revolves about 9/11 which is American coding for 11 September and doesn’t even refer to the year. (So the subject can be revived again each year as if it was just last year.)

          Hash – dictionary definition 2. A reuse or rework of old material. and a meaning that holds glamour is 4. settle someone’s hash – to subdue or silence someone.

          Personally I am trawling through various events of World War 2 which is full of surprises and shocks for me and there are even new understandings for historians. Now I set World War 2 as winner against your World Trade Centre. Any bets on which was the biggest and most awful and had most secrets and unexplained events.

          (The latest is that the Germans told the Allies about the Polish Katyn massacre by the Russians well before the end of WW2 but the Allies kept it quiet because they needed to have the Russian power alongside them or the war and its deathly results would continue longer. And then afterwards the Allies still kept quiet about this sad act of barbarism).

          • travellerev 6.1.1.2.1
            15 September 2012 at 10:31 am

            It only took you 70 years to find out that WWII was started with False Flag inside jobs and they kept silent about it???
            And you’re only able to admit to them because it was the “bad” people did them?
            Oh well, never mind, I’m sure there’s going to be people like you who in 70 years are going to be equally surprised about the events of 911 when it’s “historians” who write about them.

      • travellerev 6.1.2
        15 September 2012 at 10:04 am

        Just the man who should be reading this beautiful book but who won’t.

        I hoped you would react to this because it gives me an opportunity to thank you.
        Thanks to your responses here my blog has attracted a lot more attention from people than it would have without your inane banter.
        People have a tendency to want to see for themselves what is being ridiculed before they join the fray and judging by the fact that a lot more people (44 from the Standard alone) read my blog then the two who left proof of their intellectual fragility I reckon the message gets out there.
        Next week I’m going to hit the 50.000 individual IP addresses of which about 46% are New Zealanders. That is at a rate of 117 on average per day over the last 30 days.

        The last week more than 3476 people visited my blog with top searches such as:

        edna cintron
        9 11 twin towers
        twin towers 9/11
        the real towers on 911
        building 7 lights for 9/11

        And according to Open Parachute I was number 44 on the August list of NZ blogs. Not bad for a “fringe” blog from a foreigner considering there are now 267 blogs on his list!

        So thank you and keep em coming!!!

    • mike e 6.2
      15 September 2012 at 11:01 am

      Big BS trav read huffintons Expose on GW Bush’s cover up!

  7. Jenny 7
    15 September 2012 at 9:29 am

    Concert for Syria

    http://www.capitaltimes.co.nz/Concert-for-Syria

    Local musicians are pulling together a concert to raise money for the refugees of Syria.

    It’s the brainchild of Tali Williams, a local musician who spent time in Syria in 2006, writing on the plight of refugees. She stayed for a few weeks at the Yarmouk refugee camp in Damascus.

    “At that time the camp was home to refugees fleeing the Iraqi war,” Williams says. “Now because of the brutal war being waged by Assad on his own people, Yarmouk has faced a deluge of displaced Syrian refugees.”

    The situation is desperate Williams says. She’s stayed in touch with workers from the Jafra Foundation whom she met in Syria. Jafra funds relief and youth programmes at the Yarmouk camp.

    “The people at Jafra are saying things are really bad there. The camp is being shelled on a daily basis and because of the numbers of refugees arriving at the camp they’re fast running out of basic supplies such as food and water. My friend asked me by email if I could help raise some money for them.”

    Williams says she felt “desperate” to help. Her band friends were happy to lend their support to the people of Syria. The result, a fundraising show featuring Wellington acts All Seeing Hand, The Body Lyre, Hutt Old Boys and Von Thundersvolt.

    Williams says entry is only $10, all of which will go directly to the Jafra Foundation.

    Capital Times, Wellington what’s on in Wellington

    Syrian Refugee Fundraiser

    8pm, Tonight.

    Garrett Street

    Be there or be square

    Late News: Jon Lemon’s arm is DJing.

    http://www.facebook.com/jon.lemmon.7

  8. prism 8
    15 September 2012 at 9:55 am

    Right bloody Herald doing its usual. Now turn to Radionz doing its regular bloody good job.
    This monrning on Kim Hill’s compered by Producer Mark Cubey today were some very informative items that anyone writing blogs here will want to listen to.
    http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/saturday (audio won’t be up till a few hours after broadcast or about 12 noon)

    The first goes into the nature of politicians and why Britain has the bunch it has which explains what we have and what the public role in their choice is. He also mentions USA. It’s a pretty grim future for us really, for among other points, the super-wealthy have the money to fund the pollies they want to stand and then to get the policies they want. Hence USA. Don’t be too hard on Obama folks.
    This interview was at 8:15 Aeron Davis (a good, clear speaker with nous)

    Dr Aeron Davis is Professor of Political Communication at Goldsmiths College, University of London. He has investigated communication at Westminster and the London Stock Exchange, and amongst the major political parties and across the trade union movement, interviewing close to 300 high-profile individuals employed in journalism, public relations, politics, business, finance, NGOs and the civil service. Dr Davis is the author of Public Relations Democracy (MUP, 2002), The Mediation of Politics (Routledge, 2007), and Political Communication and Social Theory (Routledge, 2010). He is currently working on a book on the rise of promotional culture.

    The second talks about China and how it is changing and casts light on what we should be thinking about it and how to be doing things alongside, in or with it. (Not like John Key building a slanted picture of having ‘tentacles into the Pacific’. What a stupid, ignorant prick he is when he is outside his only skill manipulating other people’s money in a firm that eventually failed.)
    Was on at 8:40 Steve Mullinjer (good clear speaker very well versed in background.)

    Steve Mullinjer is head of the Asian and Middle-East business for leadership advisory firm Heidrick & Struggles. Based in Shanghai, he also runs the firm’s Asian private equity business.

    There was also a third – Martin Snedden who has written a book on the ins and outs of hosting the Rugby World Cup. It gives an overview of it and insight into how NZ can do things like this successfully again. Which we need to to keep money flowing and accumulating in piles to be delivered to education, hospitals and so on.

    • ianmac 8.1
      15 September 2012 at 10:10 am

      Prism. The really scary thing from Dr Davis was about the massive dismantling and privatisation of the British Health System. (Coming to a place near you?)

      • prism 8.1.1
        15 September 2012 at 10:35 am

        ianmac you’re back! Yes but the whole thing is scary.

        I have read about British privatisation from years back in providing housing and the government there has through their lax demands and standards reintroduced slum landlords on probably a bigger scale than Peter Rachman. Wikipedia has coverage of this guy who would now probably be an MP or ex MP. Also this link http://notting-hill.london.myvillage.com/article/peter-rachman

        The British are pretty good at doing down the poor and the ‘people’ generally. That’s why our people came all the way out here sailing for three months in crowded discomfort, eating who knows what and with numerous children born on board also dying. But we were brought up with the myth that the good things about the United Kingdom was all there was to know about them. Now the crooks have termited into the heart of the pillars of political and financial probity and services, and the edifice is tottering they are doing a Brownlee and sweeping it all away.

    • muzza 8.2
      15 September 2012 at 10:13 am

      Good info Prism, cheers, and yes the worlds elite certainly have the planet at their mercy, there is no doubt about that! People have let it happen to them, so is expecting them to react to prevent further head stomping too much to expect?

      Just one thing to address though “Which we need (corporate events) to to keep money flowing and accumulating in piles to be delivered to education, hospitals and so on.,

      We need nothing to ensure that the countrys health, education and general societal well being needs are met, other than to take control of our monetary supply. At that time we can feed, heal, educate, cloth and shelter all those who need the asisstance, and some who may not, throughout our live with some dignity, that has been stripped back to callousness beyond belief in many cases.

      Talk about large events and what purpose they serve distract people from core conversations, and given the losses to the country in terms of debt to repay on the back of the event, well we can let the private sector fund that stuff eh, at least until we have taken control of our monetary supply!

      • prism 8.2.1
        15 September 2012 at 10:44 am

        Oh come on muzza while it’s true that the people have let it happen etc there is another side and that the people can’t imagine the level of inflated self-promotion masking inherent incompetence and the focussed self-interest and deal-making tendencies that drives the actions of pollies.

        The radio discussion talked about who gets elected and why and made the point that people particularly in the USA look for someone who sounds trustworthy and capable of doing the job. Policies are confusing so the electorate is not well informed about them. He also talks about the blatant lies about policies and change of tack once elected, often to the opposite of what was promised. Winston should get in to parliament, he is a consummate politician, but I like his style and if we are to have self-serving, well-paid career politicians (another point he comments on) we might as well have style with it.

        And the point that we need to have control of our monetary supply – yes to a large extent. But it’s buying power is always connected to world levels. We could help by making more decisions ourselves true and stopping wealthy people using it as play money mucking up our exchange rate for instance. And we do need to do business and create wealth, or we get more reliance on free health care from old women and otherwise unemployed, and more being done with unacceptable parts of old home remedies. Baking soda on all wounds for instance, Vinegar anyone? T

        • muzza 8.2.1.1
          15 September 2012 at 11:19 am

          there is another side and that the people can’t imagine the level of inflated self-promotion masking inherent incompetence and the focussed self-interest and deal-making tendencies that drives the actions of pollies.

          The radio discussion talked about who gets elected and why and made the point that people particularly in the USA look for someone who sounds trustworthy and capable of doing the job.

          Nah, that side is also called letting it happen to them…Through such traits as laziness, ignorance, arrogance and ego, large helpings of most or all, it is not exclusive the USA!

          And the point that we need to have control of our monetary supply – yes to a large extent. But it’s buying power is always connected to world levels. We could help by making more decisions ourselves true and stopping wealthy people using it as play money mucking up our exchange rate for instance

          Not in large part, in full part Prism, people got to stop thinking outside of that little box, and fix our exchange rate while we are taking back the money supply, that will stabilise our export markets among other things! Once we have claimed our money supply, we can go about taking back whats left of so called democracy, because time is running very short these days….if its not past tipping point already!

          Good on you for reding some history too, get stuck into WW1 while youre at it, I am sure you are already up to speed on the Vietnam lies which kick started that disaster!

          The farther backward you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see. —Sir Winston Churchill (yes he was one of the bros, and high enough to have known exactly what he was saying!)

          • prism 8.2.1.1.1
            15 September 2012 at 1:47 pm

            muzza
            Hell no. I can’t go into WW1 or Vietnam in depth (though did a bit of googling on MIA and was fascinated by how many politicians and scam artists (not necessarily the same) got involved in that emotional idea. One woman mortgaged her house to provide funds for someone who said he was going to find evidence in Vietnam. All for nothing, for her, I think. No WW2 is enough. I have only so much time.

            And about the exchange rate, if the market isn’t going to set a second by second rate based on points of a cent advantage to the traders, how are we going to establish a rate that holds and is appropriate for the market as well as for us.? Will we set it at certain times of the year, then hold through one season of agricultural or horticultural exports then at a set date look at how the market/blackmarket is going (economists don’t like floor prices as it encourages devious ways around, though I don’t know if that is worse than hedge funds that are set up to play financial games for the h.funds within the main transaction.) And if USA can have Quantitative Easing why can’t we??

            And what exchange rate would we have now if we could eliminate much of the short-term trading that we have now. The rate would be different and higher probably than a rational assessment looking at our total economic situation. 70% against the US$? And what about the basket of currencies rate?
            ……..NZ$ value PayNZ
            Euro 0.632211 1.581750
            US Dollar 0.830000 1.204819
            Australian Dollar 0.785278 1.273434
            Canadian Dollar 0.805266 1.241826
            (courtesy of X-Rates)

        • Draco T Bastard 8.2.1.2
          15 September 2012 at 2:05 pm

          But it’s buying power is always connected to world levels.

          We can always afford what we make from NZ resources.

          • prism 8.2.1.2.1
            15 September 2012 at 6:27 pm

            DTB
            Yes point taken that we need to make things, repair things here but we still will need to import some parts or whole items.

  9. SukieDamson 9
    15 September 2012 at 10:02 am

    Sound familiar ?

    “The basic problem for Republicans is that their highest policy priority is to cut the effective tax rate paid by the richest 1 percent of Americans, but the vast majority of the voters don’t share that goal. Handling that problem is the single biggest challenge the Republican party faces. Normally, when a party has an extremely unpopular position, it just jettisons it. But Republicans care so much about this goal that they won’t give it up, which makes sense — you compromise on your secondary goals, not on your primary goal. Still, this ultimately places them in the position Romney finds himself and Paul Ryan and George W. Bush have found as well — the only way they can get elected is to obscure the real trade-offs and make up a bunch of fake numbers.”

    Romney: My Magic Tax Plan Will Repeal Laws of Arithmetic http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2012/09/romney-my-magic-tax-plan-will-repeal-math.html

    • ianmac 9.1
      15 September 2012 at 10:13 am

      This is only about the Republicans isn’t it? I mean National wouldn’t use these tactics like lowering the tax rate for the benefit of the rich would it? Oh.

      • muzza 9.1.1
        15 September 2012 at 10:53 am

        Remember people not to be conned by the term “rich”, especially when referring to tax cuts in NZ.

        Sure the cuts were aimed at those who possibly did not need them, but that conjecture, does not hide the simple fact that it was little more than the following.

        1: Vote buying/securing
        2: Class warfare ensuring – Hey those rich bastards to a tax cut, and we got a bloody gst tax rise…
        3: Budget blowing – leading to more borrowing, from who, at what rate we are not allowed to know, only that we all become pooer for it
        4: Distraction!!!!!

        The true rich, not those people belive are in charge, do not pay tax, nor do the corporations they own. Even the lackeys like Romney do their best to steal then hide their ill gotten gains…

        No, the “rich” , we in NZ, and the idiots in the USA are told that the “rich”, are those in NZ = Over 65K or whatever it is, and in the USA 200-250k+

        These people are not why NZ is broke, they are simply a tool being used, just as the poor are. When people can cut through the obvious misdirections, then can we have real conversation.

    • prism 9.2
      15 September 2012 at 11:00 am

      People who make things for the rich find often that it is very hard to get payment from them, they delay, complain about some minor thing to bring the price down and just don’t want to pay their bills.

      Applies to tax as well. That reluctance to pay a small proportion of their discretionary money, ie what’s left after utilities and other living expenses are paid for, and then the tax just reduces their extra pot of gold, starves the country of the income it needs to provide for all the other people who make do on much less, ie the huge majority. And the more that universal provision of services is cut, the more they want to hold onto their gold to make sure that they have the cash to cover their own needs. Universality is often scorned, but it is essential in a democracy that wants to be fair and reasonably equal.

      • ianmac 9.2.1
        15 September 2012 at 11:38 am

        And we noticed that going house to house for charity collections the people in rich houses tended to be rude and nil donors, but many people in poor seeming houses they gave something.
        My plumber brother in law hated doing work in Fendalton in Christchurch because they constantly obstructed paying his bills.
        Anecdotal I know, but ask around.

  10. Penny Bright 10
    15 September 2012 at 10:36 am

    Isn’t the job of hospitals to help keep you ALIVE?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vbu5eUzTgYA

    PROTEST today Saturday 15 September 2012 from 12 noon to 2pm outside Auckland Hospital.

    VITAMIN C CAN CURE! So why does Auckland Hospital REFUSE to give it to you?

    http://www.vitaminccancure.org.nz

    ___________________________________________________________________________________________

    Penny Bright

    • Murray Olsen 10.1
      15 September 2012 at 3:57 pm

      You can actually buy ascorbic acid very cheaply and inject it yourself if you really want to. If I thought it would help with cancer, I wouldn’t wait for a hospital.

    • OneTrack 10.2
      16 September 2012 at 10:56 pm

      What is it a treatment for? Broken leg? Blindness? The vapours? Dementia?

  11. Southern Limits 11
    15 September 2012 at 10:39 am

    After 10 weeks of waiting my IR3 tax return was due to be released yesterday. I checked on-line and nothing had changed so I rand IRD. I was informed that because my return contained an overseas component it could not be processed automatically, and so it will now be processed manually which will take another 15 working days. This is after I rang them twice during the ten weeks to check on the progress and discussing with the employee both times the overseas component.

    How the $%^% does it take 10 weeks to figure out a single application has to be processed manually?

    I’ve made a formal complaint.

  12. Herodotus 12
    15 September 2012 at 10:53 am

    Further from Water Care comment a few days ago
    A standard family of 4 usage 600l/day or 219 kL
    In Jan 2012 the annual cost of water would have been:
    Fixed charges WasteWater $426.36 pa
    Volume Charges $284.70 p.a.
    Total Cost $711.06
    Now it would be
    Fixed $190 p.a
    Volume Waste Water $294.12 @ $1.343
    Volume Water $499.54 @ $2.281
    A New annual cost to the $983.66
    An increase of $272.60 or 38%. No wonder everyone is feeling poorer. And for me this is where many miss the point it is these day to day issues that hit the pay packet that get no attention are the issues. Think what a household has to give up now to be able to afford this increase in water. I hope that the new beer factory of Lion have also incurred this increase ????
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10696787

    • prism 12.1
      15 September 2012 at 11:03 am

      herodotus 12
      And who says that water is free and we all own it???? Good old Jokey Hen that’s who. Cluck cluck again.

      • Herodotus 12.1.1
        15 September 2012 at 11:52 am

        Water is free just like education – Tui anyone !!!!
        Like many of these insidious increases in costs that we cannot escape (Non tradables) and watch deflation form nice to haves that we import and can live without or delay. Hard to delay water, rates etc. These are the every day issues that do have an impact on people not all these beltway issues.

    • ianmac 12.2
      15 September 2012 at 11:46 am

      Our town does not meter water. Is your annual water rate of $983 on top of Rates? If so must make Rates + water pretty high? (My total Rates $2,340 pa.)

      • Herodotus 12.2.1
        15 September 2012 at 11:57 am

        Rates have had the water component separated for some of the councils that were absorbed into Jakaland others such as Manukau & Auckland had them already separated. Just another small issue that makes all of us poorer and those in severe need ….. Still what is a 38% on top of the rates increase- Just as well we all received a tax cut a few years ago to help us out !!!!

      • Draco T Bastard 12.2.2
        15 September 2012 at 2:37 pm

        Our town does not meter water.

        Which is really incredibly stupid. Metering each house gives gives people a way to cut down their water use and also helps detect leaks in the pipe.

        • McFlock 12.2.2.1
          15 September 2012 at 3:48 pm

          It’s also the first step to privatising the supply. 
               
          I’ll wait until leaks become evident, ta very much. given that the only reason my town had a water shortage a few years back was because the reservoirs were too small for the population. Sorted now, I believe.

          • Draco T Bastard 12.2.2.1.1
            15 September 2012 at 4:50 pm

            It’s also the first step to privatising the supply.

            Only if you allow it to be.

            given that the only reason my town had a water shortage a few years back was because the reservoirs were too small for the population.

            And that would have been known before it became a problem if proper measurements (inflow, storage and outflow) were in place.

    • Draco T Bastard 12.3
      15 September 2012 at 2:32 pm

      At those rates it would be advisable to go to this site.

      You know, what really pisses me off is that a lot of people actually think that these things such as water can be supplied free. It costs to put them in place and it costs to maintain them. Can’t get away from that. Could get away from the council taking a dividend (profit) but that would require an increase in rates which people will complain about as well but it still comes down to the simple fact that what they want to be supplied costs and they don’t seem willing to pay for it.

      • uke 12.3.1
        16 September 2012 at 9:42 am

        If all new houses were required to have rain/roof fed water tanks, the cost of water could start to approach “free”.

        • Draco T Bastard 12.3.1.1
          16 September 2012 at 2:54 pm

          It would drop down to the minimum amount needed to maintain the infrastructure which we would need to keep going – especially the waste water systems.

  13. Jackal 13
    15 September 2012 at 11:26 am

    John Armstrong vs Bloggers

    It’s free speech stupid and the blogosphere is here to stay…

  14. gobsmacked 14
    15 September 2012 at 11:59 am

    A heads-up …

    Both Key and Shearer will be on Q & A tomorrow (9 am).

    Some advice for David Shearer: you know what you will be asked about (water, asset sales) and you need to have a very clear response. Spend the rest of Saturday rehearsing with the bathroom mirror if you have to – just make sure you get it right. It is 100% certain that your soundbite will be featured in the news bulletins, so it’s your job to give the media one they can use.

    You will be asked …
    “Do Maori own water?”
    “Do you agree with the Prime Minister?”
    “Would you negotiate with iwi?”
    etc

    Media Rule One – it is NOT about the question, it is about your answers. And your answer should be that New Zealand assets are not for sale. If you accept Key’s framing of the issue (i.e. it’s about those grasping Maoris) then you lose. So … don’t even THINK about accepting it. You say:

    “Our power is not for sale. We’re going to give the people a say, and they’ll say “No sale”.

    (Interviewer – “But who owns water?”)

    “We’ll have a referendum. I’ve brought a copy of the petition along (*waves paper at camera*) for John Key to sign. Have you signed it yet? Why not?”

    (“But who owns water?”)

    “Let’s ask the people … if they want to keep our assets, we keep our water.”

    etc.

    No waffle. Just a clear, principled (and incidentally, popular) position. Please.

    • tc 14.1
      15 September 2012 at 1:30 pm

      +1 I’d like to see DS also throw the issue of falling demand from Kawerau and Tiwai point onto the table which weakens all the generators values.

      Shonkeys playing the race card as a distraction from the play Rio Tinto are making to get even cheaper power from our system and overall falling demand.

      Taunt the big businesses party with their inability to see this coming from big business, not looking at the global market for aluminium etc etc, as has been stated, answer in a way that sets the agenda.

      Play on your own terms not the hollowmens

    • David H 14.2
      15 September 2012 at 8:33 pm

      Yeah but you already know whats going to happen. Umms and errs and arrs and waffle, waffle, waffle. Key will run rings around him, and then Labour really will be a dead duck…Time to start saving my pennies for moving my family out of NZ.

    • joe90 15.1
      15 September 2012 at 12:21 pm

      Tomgram: Monopolizing War?

      What America Knows How to Do Best

      It’s pop-quiz time when it comes to the American way of war: three questions, torn from the latest news, just for you. Here’s the first of them, and good luck!

      Two weeks ago, 200 U.S. Marines began armed operations in…?:

      a) Afghanistan
      b) Pakistan
      c) Iran
      d) Somalia
      e) Yemen
      f) Central Africa
      g) Northern Mali
      h) The Philippines
      i) Guatemala

    • prism 15.2
      15 September 2012 at 3:08 pm

      joe90
      What a smug-looking sh.t. What I can’t understand is why there isn’t a furore about people like Klein calling themselves Christian. If that isn’t taking the Christian religion and Lord’s name in vain I don’t know what is. The established churches who consider themselves following Christian principles should denounce such people. Klein cannot be a true Christian and act as he does, and the Coptic Church should also be calling their people to account if they profess to follow the Christian way.

      • locus 15.2.1
        16 September 2012 at 7:37 am

        Having leaders of churches criticise these lowlives plays into their fantasy world, and gives them a chance to have airtime to spout their poisonous filth. Better for the 99% of us who find their views utterly despicable to disempower them with logic, compassion and decency

        • prism 15.2.1.1
          16 September 2012 at 1:13 pm

          locus
          I disagree. The churches that cling to the idea of integrity and following Christ need to disassociate themselves from so-called ‘Christians’ like Klein and the nasty and stupid so-called Coptic Christian who actually made the film. Jesus would denounce them.

      • Vicky32 15.2.2
        16 September 2012 at 7:44 pm

        Klein cannot be a true Christian and act as he does, and the Coptic Church should also be calling their people to account if they profess to follow the Christian way.

        I don’t believe that he is a Christian at all, much less a Copt. The story changes every 5 minutes, I’ve been discussing it on a rather vicious American board, for the past 3 days, and I have been noting all the changes as they happen…

  16. William Joyce 16
    15 September 2012 at 12:24 pm

    My apologies to Banksy…….no….the other one

  17. Morrissey 17
    15 September 2012 at 1:09 pm

    Just how useless can a politician be?

    Watch the following clip. It is the Australian workplace relations minister Bill Shorten, but I’m sure others have seen New Zealand politicians who are just as much of a waste of space….

    http://ceasefiremagazine.co.uk/i-opinion-told-yet/

  18. prism 18
    15 September 2012 at 1:20 pm

    Today Goldworthy spokesperson for Manufacturers is reported as saying no to Green suggestions to ease the exchange rate because it will – put up fuel cost. And no serious politician would consider that. Hey, I think it’s time to recognise it’s already happening. Wakey, wakey.

    His message is that manufacturers have to get smart and handle it. This is exactly the same message that they have been coming out with since the exchange rate became a problem. These guys can’t even support a new approach that would benefit all of them in keeping their markets and getting more sales in this world recession! Door closed. Closing down shop. Locked. No new ideas need to apply here.

    No wonder NZ is going down the drain. And catching up with Oz, we won’t even be able to hope that if we wait in one spot they will decline to our level. We will be slowly sinking always below them for reasons of size for a start, which gives scale, and also because they are a bunch of tryers, trying yes, but they’ve a bit of the dingo that we haven’t got.

  19. weka 19
    15 September 2012 at 5:43 pm

    Another move in google’s plan for world domination. ‘Quick view’ in google searches (to save opening DOCs/PDFs etc) is now only available if you are signed into googledocs with a google account. 

     

  20. prism 20
    15 September 2012 at 6:34 pm

    weka
    Thanks for that information. When is that happening? We just did a test and could get it without doing anything extra.

    • weka 20.1
      15 September 2012 at 7:28 pm

      Everytime I use it now. But just checking… it only happens in Safari. Firefox seems to be fine.

      • weka 20.1.1
        15 September 2012 at 7:37 pm

        Scratch that. It seems that I had a gmail account that had been logged out by google, but not by me, and that was what was prompting me to log in. Once I logged out properly, I could view the googledocs fine.

        Typical 🙄 google being only mildly evil. 

  21. William Joyce 21
    15 September 2012 at 6:41 pm

    This should be first up on the news
     
    He should also have added….

    please don’t starve my country
    please don’t ruin my economy
    please don’t bomb my family
    please don’t invade my country
    please don’t appoint a corrupt government
    please don’t hand my country over to your corporations
    please don’t steal our resources

  22. prism 22
    15 September 2012 at 7:10 pm

    I agree with the Law Society suggesting that we jettison the tv coverage we have at present and instead supply a constant feed with no comments. Jonathan Temm slags the tv coverage we have now as encouraging disrespect for the law, and emotional responses to the process and to the defendant. And concentrating only on particular cases that they can sensationalise. True.

    And what about this news.
    Road rage case reviewed by Solicitor-General
    The Solicitor-General’s office is reviewing a case in which an Auckland investment banker ran over a man and broke his legs.There was an altercation so of course when you are an annoyed banker, or even a disturbed one, you attack someone with your car.

    Happened in Christchurch and the guy got away with killing Christine Clark, mother of two.
    Perp got 9 months periodic detention and 2 years disqualification. He was a good guy said his barrister, and was frightened by the emotional picketers at Lyttelton and just took off.

  23. Colonial Viper 23
    15 September 2012 at 9:29 pm

    Sydney police tear gas anti-US protestors

    Coming to a town near you.

    http://rt.com/news/police-australia-protesters-sydney-187/

  24. prism 24
    16 September 2012 at 9:02 am

    Klein USA right wing brain-damaged rabid who was behind the offending film was on radio yesterday or this morning. He talks about Vietnam, which seems to have spawned such a tail of bad attitudes and concepts almost as bad as the war itself. He says his son was injured when in Iraq on some project.

    The fast worldwide media gives these crazies and bigots so much power. The First World War I think started after a Serbian killed the ArchDuke of Something which caused outrage and sparked the fuse that went off dragging countries in to support other countries they had treaties with. People like Klein and the southern ‘pastor’ who burnt a Koran are the same sort of dangerous nutters. We have just made closer ties with the USA, our big buddy! What next?

    • locus 24.1
      16 September 2012 at 9:23 am

      you’re right – the more hatred one side can generate the more it justifies the other side to use the same tactics – putrid attitudes need to be starved of publicity – does the egyptian tv host who broadcast the sick video to the arab world feel any responsibility for the ensuing deaths and escalating hatred?

  25. peter petterson 25
    17 September 2012 at 7:37 pm

    Re David Bain…
    When retired Canadian judge, David Binnie, was appointed by the National Government to assess David Bain’s compensation claim a few months ago, Judge Binnie asked for reading material which included two books written by Bain supporter, Joe Karam: David and Goliath: The Bain family murders; and Bain and Beyond.
    But this request did not extend to books written by ant-Bain campaigners. I find that quite extraordinary. The other books included The Mask of Sanity: The Bain Murders by James McNeish; and In the Grip of Evil: The Bain Murders by Judith Wolfe and Trevor Reeves.
    To get compensation, applicants must prove their innocence, at a minimum, on the balance of probabilities. In addition, because Bain’s claim fell outside cabinet guidelines, he needs to demonstrate the circumstances were extraordinary. The compensation could be up to $2 million dollars, for the time he spent in prison. He could also be entitled to a public apology or a statement of innocence. I don’t believe that innocence or lack of innocence should be assessed on probabilities. Justice has to be broader than that, surely?
    The interesting point that should be considered is that the Prime Minister, John Key, and his Cabinet are not bound to grant compensation. As I wrote above, this claim actually fell outside Cabinet guidelines.
    The Government’s decision could take some time. Judge Binnies’ report has to be read by the Minister of Justice, who will then report to Cabinet. There is no right of Appeal to the Cabinet’s decision. It is binding!

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