Open mike 16/10/2020

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, October 16th, 2020 - 132 comments
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132 comments on “Open mike 16/10/2020 ”

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  1. Dennis Frank 1
    16 October 2020 at 6:31 am

    Policy.nz summarises every single policy released by the major parties, making it easy for voters to compare. More than 410,000 people have now visited the site and picked their favourites from among the nearly 2,000 policies we’ve published.

    When readers see a policy they like, they can “favourite” that policy and save it to a personalised list. Readers have favourited millions of policies in total. A hard core of more than 3,200 policy-heads favourited more than 100 policies each… https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/16-10-2020/the-most-liked-policy-of-them-all-based-on-400000-new-zealanders-choices/

    The policy favourited by the most readers comes from the Green Party: Create a plan to provide training for new clean energy jobs.

    As for the other parties, the most favourited policy for each party was:

    Māori Party: Stop issuing coal mining permits and phase out industrial coal burning by 2030
    Labour Party: Continue to replace coal heaters with clean energy in schools and hospitals
    National Party: Install cameras on all commercial fishing boats
    New Conservative: Tax house purchases by non-citizens and local investors with two or more properties
    ACT: Support legalisation of euthanasia
    TOP: Increase pay transparency
    NZ First: Keep historic statues

    But is the statue of Colin Meads in Te Kuiti historic?? He's still alive, so I reckon not. Road signs with capital letters as big as a hand-span alert drivers heading north & south to where it can be found, and such civic care & attention to worshippers is indeed heart-warming, but I wonder how long it will take for woke activists to get there & do their eliminating…

    • Barfly 1.1
      16 October 2020 at 6:39 am

      "But is the statue of Colin Meads in Te Kuiti historic?? He's still alive, so I reckon not

      '

      Colin Meads died 3 years ago – sheesh

      • Dennis Frank 1.1.1
        16 October 2020 at 6:49 am

        Oops, obviously I missed that news! blush

        • Incognito 1.1.1.1
          16 October 2020 at 10:06 am

          Brilliant self-elimination!

        • greywarshark 1.1.1.2
          16 October 2020 at 10:25 am

          Watch out for those bold assertions Dennis – too many wrong ones and we will stop paying attention to you!

          My comment on the Greens favoured policy:

          Create a plan to provide training for new clean energy jobs.

          is that I don't like the wording, good intention though. 'Less create, get a plan to provide' and actually have the word 'DO' in it. No paralysis by analysis. My guru Yoda says 'No try – just Do'. Obviously there has to be a plan, and that could be – Utilise all the present programs that are suitable and have been monitored and show good effect, and if they are keen have them put forward method and priorities and amalgamate them all, and have them carry out training, then compare their success rate, and include the trainees in the process for their opinion as to their success or note, and rejig things.

          Get started, refine the practice with the trainees understanding that they are part of the study, and they will feel proud and put their best in. Only a year would see a huge change in attitudes throughout the actual working people at the coalface (new word needed for that). The workers are carrying the country forward and supporting the oldies, the young ones deserve our respect and support.

          So Do That, Greens and prove your wokeness where it is crucial. (And to keep our irony level up for mental health, here is a collection of random opinions about what 'woke' means from the Urban Dictionary.) https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=woke

          • Dennis Frank 1.1.1.2.1
            16 October 2020 at 10:32 am

            actually have the word 'DO' in it. No paralysis by analysis

            I wrote Greens policy on exactly that basis. I saw standard leftist language as defective, so set out to declare intent for exactly that reason.

            Needless to say, subsequent Green policy writers reverted to type. Not quite as blatant with the weasel words as Labour, mind you!

            • greywarshark 1.1.1.2.1.1
              16 October 2020 at 10:47 am

              Ah hah. Well I register my vote for Do and make it fit for purpose, and include the trainers and trainees and listen to them and work out quickly a practical way forward that they will all trial, and report on. Then they will all Own the project, which means that they will all feel that it includes their own ideas and wishes, and that they have 'Skin in the game'.

  2. Dennis Frank 2
    16 October 2020 at 6:43 am

    Simon Wilson asks

    Is there any room to move in Ardern's point-blank rejection of both the Greens' wealth tax and a capital gains tax?

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/simon-wilson-rapture-or-reform-jacinda-ardern-and-the-wealth-tax/7OKVMX7TQQU3E3U4PAG56BF4UY/

    Kate Raworth, the British economist who invented "doughnut economics", spoke via Zoom to a candidates' debate in Freemans Bay last week.

    Raworth's doughnut is a ring that describes the relationship between our standards of living and our use of the world's resources. Inside the ring – in the doughnut hole – it is not possible to live well; outside the ring, we squander resources and ruin the planet.

    We prosper and are in balance with the world when we live within the inner and outer limits of the doughnut. The aim of economics in the 21st century, said Raworth, must be to find a way to get there and stay there. But the Covid crisis has made inequalities worse. "We see it in gender and race, in class and in power." Doughnut economics, said Raworth, offers "a compass for humanity".

    She says she doesn't have all the answers. No one does. Reducing our use of resources means reducing growth, and in conventional terms that creates poverty. But Raworth is not put off. "It's never been done before, but we have to work out how to do it. This is a new science, it's not even 10 years old." In fact, Raworth does have some answers. She's consulting to the city of Amsterdam on its post-Covid rebuild, and several other cities, including Los Angeles and Berlin, have also been inspired by her thinking as they plan their rebuild. I'll write more on this soon.

    I hope he elucidates. Is her framing just a superficial rehash of sustainability? Or does it actually go beyond that, to provide strategic policy frameworks??

    • Incognito 2.1
      16 October 2020 at 10:09 am

      Both/and logic applies!

    • weka 2.2
      16 October 2020 at 1:16 pm

      "Is there any room to move in Ardern's point-blank rejection of both the Greens' wealth tax and a capital gains tax?"

      Good article in other ways, but pity Wilson didn't answer that question. Is there a way now that Labour can agree to some kind of capital gains taxation? Or have they locked themselves, and us, out?

      • Drowsy M. Kram 2.2.1
        16 October 2020 at 1:40 pm

        Ardern has locked the Labour party out of supporting a CGT while she's leader:

        "Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern says the public has spoken and she won't introduce a capital gains tax while she leads the Labour Party."

        Ditto any kind of wealth tax, let alone the Green's.

        "Labour leader Jacinda Ardern has moved to try to kill off National's claims she would bow to the Green Party's wish for a wealth tax by saying she would not implement a wealth tax as long as she is Prime Minister.
        It is a step further than she has gone before – her previous comments on it related to the next term.        "

        There’s very little wriggle room here, which is a pity because I doubt that the wider NZ political scene will be better disposed to the introduction of a significantly more progressive tax system again in my lifetime. A lost opportunity, IMHO.

        • Incognito 2.2.1.1
          16 October 2020 at 1:48 pm

          Don’t look down on detail, look up at the bigger picture and the endless sky. Don’t lose faith.

          • Drowsy M. Kram 2.2.1.1.1
            16 October 2020 at 2:21 pm

            My faith is weak – I'm clinging to hope and a misquote.

            "Now abideth faith, hope and love, but the greatest of these is Hope."

            • Incognito 2.2.1.1.1.1
              16 October 2020 at 10:39 pm

              Faith is like melting snow on rocks forming a little trickle that turns into a mountain stream, small, chaotic, disappearing between and underneath rocks. But it gains volume and strength and becomes a steady flow and then a giant river that can transport ships when it nears the sea. Have faith 🙂

        • Draco T Bastard 2.2.1.2
          16 October 2020 at 2:04 pm

          But has the public spoken on a CGT or just the rich?

          I don't seem to recall a referendum on it and that would be the only way to know.

          • Sacha 2.2.1.2.1
            16 October 2020 at 2:10 pm

            Internal polling must say that the contested chunk of 'centre' voters with mortgages don't like it. And I bet the finance industry has been leaning on pollies too.

            • Draco T Bastard 2.2.1.2.1.1
              16 October 2020 at 2:36 pm

              That's what I'm thinking but that's just a small portion of the country and not everyone.

              Perhaps the Greens, after the election, should push for a referendum on it at the next election. Then we'd have the public speaking on it.

            • weka 2.2.1.2.1.2
              16 October 2020 at 2:54 pm

              "Internal polling must say that the contested chunk of 'centre' voters with mortgages don't like it."

              Would be interesting to see how much that changes if the tax was explained properly, both who it would affect and what it would fund.

              There was a poll out today saying that 50% of NZers were in favour of a wealth tax.

              Labour know which side their bread is buttered on though. For now at least.

        • weka 2.2.1.3
          16 October 2020 at 2:53 pm

          yep. She's ruled out a "GCT" and a "wealth tax", but is there any way that Labour can come back from this?

          Don't know why she went that step further on the WT. Maybe their internal polling had them worried?

          • Drowsy M. Kram 2.2.1.3.1
            16 October 2020 at 3:32 pm

            Could be strategy – clear point of difference between the Green and Labour parties? Hopefully the Greens will be in parliament and continue to advocate for a wealth tax. Careful fine-tuning may get the number of NZers in favour up to a clear majority – in this poll 53% of decided voters were is favour of a larger increase in tax paid by wealthy NZers than Labour is proposing.

            Uncertainties include whether the climate for change will be any more favourable in three years' time, and whether Labour will continue to act as a handbrake in order to secure a third term.

            "But perhaps the Greens have actually hit the jackpot.

            The Newshub-Reid Research poll asked voters if Labour should have gone further in taxing the wealthiest New Zealanders.

            Opinion was split, but more voters – 48.7 percent – said yes while 43 percent said no and 8 percent didn't know.

            A majority of Labour's own voters – nearly 60 percent – wanted them to go further, while a third of National voters think so too."

            https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/10/nz-election-2020-newshub-reid-research-poll-shows-nearly-half-of-kiwis-think-wealthy-should-be-taxed-more.html

          • McFlock 2.2.1.3.2
            16 October 2020 at 3:36 pm

            Probably polling (going for the "govern alone" target), but it might also be a caucus/party-stalwart issue as well. Stamping hard on the idea certainly made JuCo's obseesion with it look stupid.

            DTB's idea of a referendum to clear the way is a good 'un, but I also wonder if there are similar tax moves that haven't been ruled out, e.g. shifting the bright line on home investments and suchlike. Greens can leverage them in negotiations, circumstances permitting.

        • woodart 2.2.1.4
          16 October 2020 at 6:13 pm

          huge amount of wriggle room. its done all the time. very similar policy, with a couple of tweaks, call it something else and tadah!.

  3. Dennis Frank 3
    16 October 2020 at 6:54 am

    Chris Trotter's advocacy for yes in the cannabis referendum comes out of a fictional tv character – used to provide plausible deniability, no doubt.

    http://bowalleyroad.blogspot.com/2020/10/fitz-on-cannabis.html

    But Tova's announcement of the Reid Research poll this morning shows a widening gap and the fear-mongering has obviously become contagious amongst the hitherto undecided. Gangsters will be delighted that the nation’s conservatives still want to preserve their monopoly of the market…

    • Barfly 3.1
      16 October 2020 at 7:02 am

      "bugger"

      • greywarshark 3.1.1
        16 October 2020 at 10:41 am

        Thinking about change needed re cannabis et al. 50 shades of grey!

        Oh, oh we are being asked what we think. (We don't, we just react.)

        It's so hard to read through all the stuff about cannabis – it's so dangerous, and it will have so many consequences if we agree to a change. (We mustn't have change.)

        If we agree to change, who knows where this thinking business will end. Having done it once, government will be asking us about everything next. (What do we have gummint for and pay them all that money – how dare they ask us to do their jobs.)

        We might get drug-deranged people come and live nextdoor, and that would be horrible. (We know how bad that can be from reports from one Standardista about what his elderly parents are suffering.)

        Everything will get worse if people aren't under prohibition; it's not good now, so 'they' will get totally out of control. That's what all of us who try to live good lives think, and we don't want to hear any more about differing opinions, it's all greenwash! So there!

    • tc 3.2
      16 October 2020 at 9:17 am

      "Gangsters will be delighted that the nation’s conservatives still want to preserve their monopoly of the market… " You need to get out more Dennis, P is where the gangs are focused and have been for many years now.

      Cannabis isn’t the business it used to be anymore as it's everywhere and anyone can grow it whereas P gives them repeat business.

      Police would likely welcome a refocus of scarce resources to combat P so if it doesn’t pass then it’s job done scaremongers, NZMA, Key etc

    • ianmac 3.3
      16 October 2020 at 10:22 am

      Dennis what was the Reid Research poll released by Tova this morning?

  4. gsays 4
    16 October 2020 at 7:02 am

    In regards the euthanasia referendum this article touched on an issue that adds to the reservations I have with what is proposed:

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/euthanasia-debate/123070527/would-legal-assisted-dying-add-to-our-dire-suicide-figures

    From the article, "Before legalisation in 2002, the Netherlands had some of the lowest suicide rates in Europe. For a period of 4-5 years after legalisation, that rate continued to fall, in line with what had previously been happening. However, from 2007, the rates started increasing dramatically and, over the next 10 years, increased by a staggering total of 33 per cent."

    I found this news chilling, the Netherlands is looking at extending euthanasia to 1-12 year olds. How long until we are considering this?

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54538288

    • Morrissey 4.1
      16 October 2020 at 9:29 am

      the Netherlands is looking at extending euthanasia to 1-12 year olds. How long until we are considering this?

      It won't be long. It's cheaper than actually providing hospice care.

      • Incognito 4.1.1
        16 October 2020 at 11:24 am

        Can you please make a comparison between NZ and the Netherlands and qualify how long it will take? I think it would be asking too much ask if I were also to ask for your figures showing that euthanasia of 1-12 year olds is cheaper than hospice care but this is a separate issue anyway.

        • greywarshark 4.1.1.1
          16 October 2020 at 2:00 pm

          That's a flip, throwaway comment about the very young rates Morrissey. Please don't treat this important issue as an opportunity for a quip, not in a public discourse. How you talk to your friends and family can be a comment in passing, but on here it 'sticks in the throat'.

          • Morrissey 4.1.1.1.1
            16 October 2020 at 5:03 pm

            Actually, I take with extreme seriousness the issue of people advocating for the "euthanising" of anyone, including young people.

            Or do you trust the assurances about "safeguards" by that renowned moral philosopher David Seymour?

            • Incognito 4.1.1.1.1.1
              16 October 2020 at 10:47 pm

              Then make your case on how the Netherlands compares to NZ. So far, all you have done is a throwaway comment that lacks context and nuance, no critical analysis or any thought from you.

              If you think this debate is important and if you want to contribute, you’d better sharpen up!

    • Drowsy M. Kram 4.2
      16 October 2020 at 12:00 pm

      "In 2018, altogether 1,829 people in the Netherlands took their own lives, which is 88 fewer than in 2017. The number of suicides declined among young people aged 10 to 19 years, from 81 in 2017 to 51 in 2018. The number went up slightly among persons aged 20 to 39 years and among female residents."
      https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/news/2019/26/fewer-suicide-deaths-in-2018

      From 1995 to 2006 the the Netherland’s suicide rate was between 9.5 and 10.7 per 100,000. In 2018 (the most recent year for which data is given in the link), the rate was 10.6 per 100,000.

      The decrease in 2018 means the suicide rate is back at the 2012 level of 10.6 per 100,000. In the 1980s the rate was as high as 14.6 per 100,000 (for 1984).

      • Incognito 4.2.1
        16 October 2020 at 12:05 pm

        Thank you.

        There is a fundamental difference between suicide and euthanasia, which commenters here have completely ignored so far, for some reason. I think it is misleading to put the two in one sentence as if they are somehow similar or equal.

        • gsays 4.2.1.1
          16 October 2020 at 3:05 pm

          I wasn't trying to conflate the two issues. One can have an impact on another though.

          In the article by Dion Howard he says "In the early stages of the End of Life Choice debate in Parliament, I noticed something shocking: the young people I was working with were rehearsing the very-same arguments used by those supporting euthanasia – autonomy, dignity and compassion – and applying them to their own situations."

          Then "In my mind, I understand that assisted dying and suicide can, in principle, be distinguished from each other. That point is often made. But my real-life experience, and that of others in the field of mental health support, is that there is a huge potential for what the Canadian Association for Suicide Prevention has called “overlap cases”.

          • Incognito 4.2.1.1.1
            16 October 2020 at 10:58 pm

            All good, nothing personal. Although there is, of course, overlap and points of connection, I personally think we’ll have a better chance at constructive and positive debate if we keep the two separate, at least at the outset.

  5. outofbed 5
    16 October 2020 at 7:11 am

    “I found this news chilling, the Netherlands is looking at extending euthanasia to 1-12 year olds.”
    “How long until we are considering this? ”
    Well considering under the rules ..those poor children are suffering unbearable pain and are terminally ill…

    I hope we are considering it as soon as possible.

    But then I don’t form opinions based on listening to my imaginary friend.

    • gsays 5.1
      16 October 2020 at 7:30 am

      Imaginary friend? Big assumptions there, outofbed.

      The line between suicide and euthanasia isn't blurred for you at all?

      I would rather, we as a society, were talking about what a life lived as fully as possible looks like and how to achieve it.

      • greywarshark 5.1.1
        16 October 2020 at 2:10 pm

        It would be good if we could live a life as fully as possible but people have to learn how to appreciate what they have to do that. We had a good life with opportunities for social mobility and advancement but for various reasons we gave up on that.

        People can feel they have had a full life and choose to die at an early age if matters deterioratel for them. In fact when someone has gone through a process of personal and family/friends resignation and legal organisation, they are often happier without care for the future. Enjoy the life you have is the answer, and put some money aside to give to refugees in foreign countries – whether economic or fleeing violence.

        That helps to give perspective about one's own situation.

        • gsays 5.1.1.1
          16 October 2020 at 6:02 pm

          "It would be good if we could live a life as fully as possible but people have to learn how to appreciate what they have to do that. "

          Showing gratitude is a great step in the right direction.

      • Draco T Bastard 5.1.2
        16 October 2020 at 2:19 pm

        I would rather, we as a society, were talking about what a life lived as fully as possible looks like and how to achieve it.

        How would someone who is either drugged out of their mind so that they can't do anything or in so much pain that they can't do anything going to live their life fully?

        • gsays 5.1.2.1
          16 October 2020 at 2:53 pm

          Ideally the pursuit of a meaningful life has begun before being stupified with drugs or in chronic pain.

          As a start, learning mastery of the monkey mind. Putting the mind to task and being able to still or calm the mind. Instead of following it on one of its loops on high rotation.

          • gsays 5.1.2.1.1
            16 October 2020 at 3:17 pm

            Sorry, missed the how part- simple breathing excercises, meditation, yoga, tai chi.

            • Draco T Bastard 5.1.2.1.1.1
              16 October 2020 at 3:29 pm

              And if that person is less than a year old?

              Or how about if, even if 12 years old, has a mind of a 4 month old and its never going to get any better?

              Or has a disease so debilitating that they cannot move by themselves?

              Do you think these people are going to be learning simple breathing exercises, meditation, yoga, tai chi? To live a more full life?

              At what point do we call keeping them alive torture?

              • Morrissey …
                16 October 2020 at 5:00 pm

                Artificially prolonging a life by hooking someone up to a respirator—yes, it is reasonable to call that torture. Of course nature should be allowed to take its course in those cases. But to kill someone is something else entirely. And why are doctors expected to have to do the killing?

                • Draco T Bastard …
                  16 October 2020 at 5:06 pm

                  But to kill someone is something else entirely.

                  Under the conditions I listed – no its not. Keeping them alive is enacting torture upon them.

                  And why are doctors expected to have to do the killing?

                  Because they're the ones qualified to diagnose and to properly use the drugs needed to enact a painless death.

                  • Morrissey …
                    16 October 2020 at 9:01 pm

                    Allowing someone to die is very different to "enacting a painless death", which is a euphemism for killing that person.

                    And, as I am sure you know, doctors take the Hippocratic Oath, which forbids them killing a patient.

                    • Incognito …
                      16 October 2020 at 11:04 pm

                      You’re like a bull in a China shop. What do you know about the Hippocratic Oath and euthanasia? Very little, by the sounds of it. Are you familiar with medical ethics? It doesn’t look that way.

              • gsays …
                16 October 2020 at 5:50 pm

                A one year old has to do less work than we do, it is only just starting to have an idea of self. Far less of an ego to overcome, still mostly a universal being.

                "Or how about if, even if 12 years old, has a mind of a 4 month old and its never going to get any better?"

                Better? As good as you are?

                "Or has a disease so debilitating that they cannot move by themselves?

                Do you think these people are going to be learning simple breathing exercises, meditation, yoga, tai chi? To live a more full life?"

                If they do, they will be able to able to discern between pain and suffering.

                • Draco T Bastard …
                  16 October 2020 at 6:47 pm

                  /facepalm

                  You really don't get it do you?

                  The ones I describe are never, ever going to have a fulfilling life because their life is torture.

                  And you want to continue torturing them.

                  • gsays …
                    16 October 2020 at 6:55 pm

                    I reckon I get it ok.

                  • Sacha …
                    16 October 2020 at 11:17 pm

                    If you believe that having impaired thinking or movement is "torture", you are closer to eugenics attitudes than you may be comfortable acknowledging.

                    Please own your own idea of what fulfilment is rather than projecting it onto others.

    • Morrissey 5.2
      16 October 2020 at 11:15 am

      I hope we are considering it as soon as possible.

      ???? What would you use? Poison? Gas?

      • Incognito 5.2.1
        16 October 2020 at 11:08 pm

        Until you’re able to lift your game beyond your current puerile level, I think it might be better if you refrain from commenting and just listen.

  6. PsyclingLeft.Always 6
    16 October 2020 at 8:07 am

    "Fatal police pursuit should not have been started: IPCA"

    https://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/fatal-police-pursuit-should-not-have-been-started-ipca

    Well theres a first. How many of these Police pursuits (often through busy streets) are necessary/safe? Some think otherwise…

    • greywarshark 6.1
      16 October 2020 at 10:56 am

      The police are breeding specially for the genes with the chase impulse in their recruits. It is a closely guarded secret. It is planned that it will be as innate in the traffic police, as it is in dogs chasing cats. (I have heard this through the grapevine.)

      • greywarshark 6.1.1
        16 October 2020 at 11:02 am

        https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/428474/woman-rammed-repeatedly-on-motorway-shocked-by-police-response

        How's this for mature, responsible response in transport control!

        Hermione McKeich says she was driving in a 100km/h zone between Melling and Petone, north of Wellington city, when the terrifying experience happened without warning.

        She told RNZ's David Reid that four men in a small truck laughed as they crashed into her small Mazda, using their vehicle as a weapon against her.

        I have had a small experience of reporting bad behaviour and it being belittled. My complaint was followed up, but the perp had some excuse and the matter was just dismissed.

        • PsyclingLeft.Always 6.1.1.1
          16 October 2020 at 12:03 pm

          Well, yes. I'm a Driver and Cyclist. Some of the fwits on our roads are mind boggling. Biking…Ive had them come so close the Campervan side mirror nearly hit me, cars "purposely" similar…Anyway it certainly makes you Situationally Aware. Re reporting…was it *555?

          And an FYI (for The Interested) I support our NZ Police. They have an, at times difficult/hazardous job. I honestly feel that some of the pursuit chases they have engaged in were unnecessary/dangerous.

          • greywarshark 6.1.1.1.1
            16 October 2020 at 2:17 pm

            A kind and thoughtful man in Nelson developed a springy device that a cyclist could fit on the hub or the seat, can't remember. It stuck out to the legal width of spacing for cyclist's safety. I think it had a little yellow flag drawing attention to that outer line. They didn't sell, it was withdrawn. But maybe it needs to be recalled as judging distance is hard for drivers.

            • PsyclingLeft.Always 6.1.1.1.1.1
              16 October 2020 at 2:35 pm

              Ah yea that would work. But sadly, maybe only for the kind and thoughtful Driver? I was talking to some German/Swiss/Dutch Cyclists (pre Covid) and they said they had never struck so many seemingly angry/aggressive Drivers. They had the Hi Vis gear and Vis flags on upright flexi poles. One of the guys , sick of being passed so close, did like you said and mounted it off to right. He said some morons were actually going past trying to grab it !?

              Oh and re your link with lady being rammed? Far out…they were prob P'd up. She def shouldnt been chasin them. Slack Police, aye..

              • greywarshark …
                16 October 2020 at 2:54 pm

                We have always had hoons but I think a prolonged period of teaching not to be concerned about others, just be an individual and go for it, has meant many young males (and females) in NZ have become anti-social and angry 'white trash'. There isn't a better term for them. These people come from families where there isn't a lot of philosophical thought! Nor religion, of a kind that promotes kind thought and good sharing community. And when there are insufficient jobs that go on a regular basis, there is opportunity to get drugged or liquored up and amuse themselves. And then when there is testing for drugs before you can get a job, there is a really vicious circle.

                The Vicious Cycle: Why the Poor Get Poorer

                A vicious cycle (also known as a vicious circle) is when a chain of negative events reinforce themselves. The situation spirals in a downward loop, becoming increasingly worse with time.

                https://www.jumpstartyourdreamlife.com/vicious-and-virtuous-cycles/

                • PsyclingLeft.Always …
                  16 October 2020 at 3:10 pm

                  Yea I would agree re hoons….they were probably racing horses back from the pub in the day….

                  And re "a prolonged period of teaching not to be concerned about others"? Could we call that the neolib nineties?

                  Gonna take a LONG time to heal us. Hope our New Govt takes on it board.

                  Re the Cycle thing…talking to Dutch (born on a bike : ) and other Euro/Scandinavian Cyclists, its just a whole different mindset. In Holland if a car has an incident with a cyclist the onus is on the Driver to prove they weren't in the wrong. Aside from that they look more…

                • Draco T Bastard …
                  16 October 2020 at 3:23 pm

                  Nor religion, of a kind that promotes kind thought and good sharing community.

                  Can't say that I've ever seen religion promoting that. War seems to be more of what religions cause instead.

              • Gabby …
                16 October 2020 at 3:59 pm

                It's just possible the vehicle owner has a 'glittering future' and is therefore immune to prosecution.

            • Draco T Bastard 6.1.1.1.1.2
              16 October 2020 at 2:42 pm

              If a driver finds it hard to judge distance then they probably shouldn't be driving.

    • Draco T Bastard 6.2
      16 October 2020 at 2:28 pm

      "The authority believes that the circumstances of this pursuit highlight the assistance pursuit controllers would gain from the greater use of technology to give access to accurate and comprehensive "real time" location and speed data," it said.

      More cameras and RADAR connected to an AI to estimate route and best place to apprehend the criminals would be the only way for this to work. Such will, inevitably, result in people whinging about the excessive use of surveillance by the police.

      • PsyclingLeft.Always 6.2.1
        16 October 2020 at 2:37 pm

        Ah what? Is this a dig?

        • Draco T Bastard 6.2.1.1
          16 October 2020 at 2:48 pm

          The IPCA has come out with a statement about the use of more technology so as to help prevent these kinds of pursuit and death happening again.

          But, as we've seen time and time again on here, almost everyone complains about the use of technology by the police to catch criminals. Calling it Orwellian and excessive and that the police shouldn't be able to watch everyone's every move despite the fact that its public information.

          Thing is, I suspect that the statement by the IPCA is actually propaganda to help sell the idea of the police having more cameras and RADAR.

          • PsyclingLeft.Always 6.2.1.1.1
            16 October 2020 at 2:56 pm

            Yea I wasnt focusing too much on the IPCA…as they are well known for "nothing to see here,move along".

            It probably is more to do with Andrew Becroft calling it…

            Commissioner Becroft said if it's known young people are more likely to be killed or harm others as a result of a police pursuit, then the policy of chasing them should change.

            He referenced a previous report from NZ Police which showed that between 2014 and 2017, police pursuits resulted in 22 deaths, five of which were of children under the age of 18.

            "It's good that Police have been working on a culture change and training recruits in the dangers involved with chasing young drivers," he said on Friday.

            https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2020/10/children-s-commissioner-calls-for-police-pursuits-of-young-drivers-to-stop.html

            I used to be on "another political site" where the majority were in favour of chasing and indeed if it led to the young kids death then "good". Even when the poor buggers were burnt to death….Fuck those kind of ghouls…..

  8. Morrissey 8
    16 October 2020 at 9:23 am

    The Show Trial of Julian Assange carries on, virtually ignored by New Zealand's government and media

    The Israeli-American human rights activist Miko Peled says early in this video: "What I find terribly troubling is the fact that so few journalists are actually standing up for him."

    Hopefully, after the election, Jacinda Ardern will find the courage to speak out about this obscene persecution.

    • Incognito 8.1
      16 October 2020 at 10:14 am

      You expect the NZ Government to comment on individual court cases overseas?

      • Morrissey 8.1.1
        16 October 2020 at 10:58 am

        Of course. She's supposed to show leadership, and integrity.

        Do you think New Zealand was wrong to speak out against the apartheid regime in South Africa?

      • Byd0nz 8.1.2
        16 October 2020 at 11:03 am

        Not while participating in 5-eyes.

        Uncle Sam will sanction dissenters.

        • Morrissey 8.1.2.1
          16 October 2020 at 11:25 am

          True. But does Andrew Little have to be so craven as he was the other day when backing the Trump regime's demand to make phone data available to the likes of Mike Pompeo and his cronies?

      • francesca 8.1.3
        16 October 2020 at 12:19 pm

        The NZ government often comments on international goings on , particularly if prompted by our 5Eyes partners

        Its a human rights issue, and our govt has often issued "statements" on that matter though admittedly only when supporting US/UK stances

        • Incognito 8.1.3.1
          16 October 2020 at 1:18 pm

          I thought my question was quite specific and clear. Obviously, my bad 🙁

          • Sacha 8.1.3.1.1
            16 October 2020 at 1:43 pm

            There will always be more answers than questions..

          • Brigid 8.1.3.1.2
            16 October 2020 at 9:31 pm

            The answer of course is "No"

            None of us expects the government to comment on this individual overseas court case.

            If it were to comment on this case, we know that such comment will have been dictated to it by the prosecuting country.

            • Incognito 8.1.3.1.2.1
              16 October 2020 at 9:47 pm

              Your answer is almost correct except for the fact that some of us expect so, apparently 😉

  9. greywarshark 9
    16 October 2020 at 11:18 am

    Good move, good news.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/428477/success-of-rangatahi-courts-applauded-by-judges-and-minister

    Critique of local Council not good, but may be good news if there is the right sort of improvement.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/428478/southland-businesses-concerned-about-invercargill-council

    …The Department of Internal Affairs requested information from the council in August following rising tensions between elected members, and at times, with staff…

    It followed feedback from many of the 450 businesses the chamber represents and concerns also raised by the Department that several high profile capital projects – including the multi-million dollar city block development – were testing the capacity of the council to provide strong, unified leadership.

    The Chamber believed there was a vacuum in leadership around the council table and many councillors didn't understand their governance role, he said…

    How does the Department of Internal Affairs itself shape up? I can't remember what recent reports on their behaviour and usefulness have shown.

    But it is inevitable that there will be disputes up and down the country as government entities bow to private interests. Bureaucracy has a lot of power and publicly elected councillors may say something is an 'operational matter' or be neutered by other interests, apart from any ineptness they show themselves. The civil servants/bureaucracy may just concentrate on efficiencies and projects that local governments in similar areas have introduced as modern, whatever those at the receiving end think. Then there is the high level of salary to the CEO and top managers and recruitment of overseas or neo-lib-soaked 'change agents' ushering in new approaches like weather bombs before moving away to their next target.

  11. Pat 11
    16 October 2020 at 2:04 pm

    Looking like almost 2 million will have voted before the election day proper.

    https://elections.nz/stats-and-research/2020-general-election-advance-voting-statistics/

  13. Dennis Frank 13
    16 October 2020 at 3:24 pm

    The Newshub-Reid Research poll asked voters if Labour should have gone further in taxing the wealthiest New Zealanders. Opinion was split, but more voters – 48.7 percent – said yes while 43 percent said no and 8 percent didn't know.

    A majority of Labour's own voters – nearly 60 percent – wanted them to go further, while a third of National voters think so too.

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/10/nz-election-2020-newshub-reid-research-poll-shows-nearly-half-of-kiwis-think-wealthy-should-be-taxed-more.html

    But here's a surprise: a quarter of the Greens' supporters think the wealthy should not be taxed further.

    I'm not one. I'd like to see a journo interview the Greens co-leaders about that though. See how they handle the news that a quarter of the Greens support base disagrees with the principle underlying the wealth tax policy. My guess is that they would carefully explain that GP policy research didn't discover that fact. They may then add that some deep thought may be required post-election…

    • Sacha 13.1
      16 October 2020 at 3:59 pm

      Oh noes, only three-quarters of Green supporters back the policy! That goose needs chasing..

      • Dennis Frank 13.1.1
        16 October 2020 at 4:11 pm

        Yep. All good pc-drones know minorities must be included in democratic process. Why oh why did they make the elementary mistake of not discovering such a huge minority before designing the policy?? That's what they'll be bemoaning now. Shock horror, reach for the smelling salts…

        • Drowsy M. Kram 13.1.1.1
          16 October 2020 at 4:35 pm

          Relax Dennis – don't have a binary! The key follow-up question for that 25% minority is: "Would you swallow this 'progressive wealth tax rat' and party vote Green anyway?" Maybe the Green party drones did their research after all, but forgot to inform you of the results you – can't think why wink

    • weka 13.2
      16 October 2020 at 4:14 pm

      "We've heard from a number of people who are millionaires who've said actually, they would happily contribute more in tax," said Shaw.

      "It's about making sure everyone has enough to live," said Green Party co-leader Marama Davidson.

    • weka 13.3
      16 October 2020 at 4:17 pm

      GP policy gets developed by active members. As I'm sure you know 😉

      Out of the 60 people the poll spoke to who vote Green, 15 were oppose to taxing wealthy people more? What's the margin of error on that?

      And what was the actual question?

      So many people don't understand who the WT would affect and how. Betting the ratios change over time as it gets explained properly in the MSM.

    • Graeme 13.4
      16 October 2020 at 4:30 pm

      There's a big difference between agreeing that the wealthy should bear a greater taxation burden and agreeing with the proposed wealth tax.

      I'd like to know how much, if any, focus group work was done on the wealth tax policy outside their own circle. A lot of un-necessary discussion has happened that shouldn't have happened in the last week of a campaign. Although the Green Party's polling went up in the final polls, whether that was because of the tax policy or despite it probably can't be answered.

      • weka 13.4.1
        16 October 2020 at 5:05 pm

        I don't think the poll was on the WT, but Labour taxing wealthy people more.

        That we're having this conversation at all is a credit to the Greens, no matter what kind of solutions we end up with for social security, and the housing crisis. Now we can have a wide ranging public conversation about fairness and how to create it.

    • Incognito 13.5
      16 October 2020 at 11:21 pm

      Please keep up, the poll question was quite specific.

      See how they handle the news that a quarter of the Greens support base disagrees with the principle underlying the wealth tax policy.

      This is another example of intellectual overreach.

  14. Tiger Mountain 14
    16 October 2020 at 4:58 pm

    ”Nat-hub’s” Tova has been hawking a “nail biter” poll for 6pm tonight that “puts the election on a knife edge”…

    • Te Aro Resident 14.1
      16 October 2020 at 6:09 pm

      Desperate headline from Tova. The only knife edge is Labour getting a majority of seats – 61. The Greens are on 6.3% and 8 seats, so Labour has mates. No path to victory for National and ACT. Labour clearly the winner.

  15. Descendant Of Smith 15
    16 October 2020 at 5:12 pm

    Now a trust to preserve and maintain this is something I could contribute to. Does make me wonder though how many writers retreats there are around New Zealand?

    I'd rather a trust own it than the state because future governments can't be "trust"ed to not sell it off for a later profit – just like Waikato University is doing so.

    Chancellor Neil Quigley told Stuff it would be selling the home, used by many creatives and academics as a holiday home and a writers’ retreat.

    The only thing stopping it from going on the open market, would be if the King family bought the house back.

    But the property’s price tag is now in the millions and serious maintenance is required. Daughter Rachael King said she needs some assistance to preserve the site.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/300133040/michael-kings-daughter-seeks-support-to-preserve-creative-taonga-in-coromandel

  16. Anne 16
    16 October 2020 at 5:23 pm

    This is an interesting headline:

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/10/nz-election-2020-jacinda-ardern-addresses-nasty-nanny-rumours-like-a-pro.html\ (my bold)

    Headline still on site as having been put there an hour ago. Page missing, so been pulled. Sounds to me like the filthy yarn has been doing the rounds again. Also the accompanying photo of Jacinda looks suspicious. Think its been tampered with or it isn’t Jacinda.

    Dirty politics?

  17. Uncle Scrim 17
    16 October 2020 at 7:14 pm

    I loved Newshub's description of the final poll tonight as a 'nailbiter'. The only nailbiting thing was whether Labour can govern alone (which the Reid Research Newhub poll suggests they could, just, with 61 seats) or whether it's an arrangement with the Greens. Labour 46, Nat 31, Act 7, Green 6 is very consistent with CB's last couple of polls. Tova says tomorrow night is going to be incredibly exciting – but it won't be really, at least not in the sense of a cliffhanger. Just a few stories around the edges of the main narrative. Obviously she wants viewers to tune in.