Open mike 16/10/2024

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, October 16th, 2024 - 98 comments
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98 comments on “Open mike 16/10/2024 ”

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  1. gsays 1
    16 October 2024 at 7:04 am

    Just been having a look at The Working Group from last night.

    Fun Fact; Apparently, for the first time, at the last election the average income of the right wing voter was lower than the average income of the left wing voter.

    The lower turnout may have contributed to this (a lack of policy from Labour), but still a trend that is occurring overseas.

    • David 1.1
      16 October 2024 at 10:17 am

      As our votes or ballots are confidential, how would anyone determine the income level of any given voter?

      • mpledger 1.1.1
        16 October 2024 at 11:21 am

        They probably do it at the electorate level – this electorate voted 85% Labour and has an average income of $50,000 (so 85% of people have an income of $50,000), this electorate voted 23% Labour and had an average income of $30,000 (so 23% had an average income of $30,000). And then totaled up across the electorates according to population size.

        If that were the case then I don't know if I would trust the result. Labour and the Greens tend to get more support from young people and females so even in a high income electorate they would be getting votes from the lower end of the income distribution. Although, NZFirst and National get more votes from retirees who have a low income (but are generally better off because of assets).

        It would be useful to have a link.

        It's probably not the American issue which is the rust belt towns falling apart by economics and the opioid epidemic and people having no means of escape but more that the Boomers are heading into retirement and living off super.

      • bwaghorn 1.1.2
        16 October 2024 at 11:22 am

        Vote % per voting booth would give an indication if you matched ot to census data on income

        • Belladonna 1.1.2.1
          16 October 2024 at 11:45 am

          I'd be reluctant to limit it to the census mesh blocks surrounding a particular voting booth. Many people (certainly in suburban areas) vote anywhere in their electorate – not necessarily at the closest booth. Synching with kids sports, or shopping trips, or whatever else they need to do on voting day/s.

          • lprent 1.1.2.1.1
            16 October 2024 at 12:24 pm

            Agreed. I voted in a border booth this time between Mt Albert and Epsom because I was taking my niece to her first vote. She was in Parnell, so I voted in Mt Eden (Epsom) where they had a Mt Albert table.

            I often I vote at a Auckland Central booth for Mt Albert because Auckland Central booths are just up the road.

            But at various times I have voted at the Mt Albert Library (going to St Lukes), Edendale primary (was passing to see a friend in Mt Roskill).

            And of course when I have been volunteering for Labour on election day (none of the above), I vote close to wherever I am on the day if I haven't already early-voted.

            Doing correlations by polling booths is a bit fraught. Something like 45% of Mt Albert votes happen in just a handful of locations – all of which are schools on main roads.

            • Visubversa 1.1.2.1.1.1
              16 October 2024 at 12:46 pm

              I have not voted on Election Day for decades. I was either organising Labour volunteers on Election Day, or later as a JP, I was collecting Special Votes from housebound people, and took the opportunity to do an early vote. Last year we were overseas and voted at New Zealand House in London.

              • lprent …
                17 October 2024 at 12:03 pm

                I haven't had time to do more than vote since 2014. The unfortunate side effect of always being embedded in work projects is that it is pretty hard to schedule specific days for election day work.

                Plus I always seemed to be racing for a release or deployment offshore to do bespoke installations of my work code just months after election day.

                Just to give an idea, you just have to look at my holiday. I came out of one job that I started in mid-2014 in 2021 paid out 8 weeks of leave, and came out of the next job paid out for with 6 weeks leave owing in Jan this year.

                I wistfully remember the days when I could take use my outstanding leave for a week or anything up to month off to work on elections – which is what I did through most elections after 1990.

                Now I'm semi-retired with just a part-time job. There may actually be time to do things like election days once more.

            • Mike the Lefty 1.1.2.1.1.2
              17 October 2024 at 12:54 pm

              Yeah I also think the figures don't mean all that much, except to people that love statistics.

              People move around so much these days and with so much early voting makes accurate comparisons difficult.

          • bwaghorn 1.1.2.1.2
            16 October 2024 at 3:27 pm

            Was but a guess

      • gsays 1.1.3
        16 October 2024 at 12:21 pm

        Yep sorry, no link.

        It does resonate though, Labour isn't connecting with working class males. The Greens were a tad too identity and Davidsons unhelpful 'white, cis males cause violence' comments.

      • Craig H 1.1.4
        16 October 2024 at 4:10 pm

        For a given voter, it's hard. The 2023 Election | New Zealand Election Study (nzes.net) would usually be how trends are identified but the data isn't out yet (although maybe someone had early access).

  2. Tiger Mountain 2
    16 October 2024 at 7:47 am

    US puts weak pressure on Israel to allow aid into Gaza…or arms supplies will be at risk of being suspended.

    https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/us-warns-israel-boost-humanitarian-aid-gaza-risk-114821525

    The letter gives 30 days for Israel to comply…which happens to be after the Presidential Election. My take is it is a cynical effort–trying to get back democratic muslim voters. The Israeli butchers will likely just go for broke even more now in trying to exterminate Palestinians

    It should be aid in today.

    • Ad 2.1
      16 October 2024 at 8:29 am

      It is an indelible stain on Biden's presidency at least as dark as that on Obama's handling of all Arab Spring initiative and the rapid decline of positive US influence in the Middle East, that Biden is sending both humanitarian aid and massive volumes of weapons to Israel in 2024.

      Biden started off his first two years of his term with momentum and spectacular redistribution to the poor and to lower-income communities.

      It is the saddest moral retreat I've seen in a while.

      • koina 2.1.1
        16 October 2024 at 9:24 am

        To me your two examples are light years apart?

        Giving Christian Amercans a hand up while oppressing Muslims in the ME

        is no moral retreat it is totally consistent with long standing American values.

        • aj 2.1.1.1
          16 October 2024 at 11:46 am

          “Israel names teenage soldiers killed in Hezbollah drone attack – as ’23 die’ in Gaza school strike”

          (Screenshot of headline)
          https://x.com/AlanRMacLeod/status/1845804207867056271/photo/1

          In years to come, students in university departments around the world will be studying the propaganda embedded in this headline.
          As someone who regularly lectures in sociology, journalism and media studies, I could teach an entire lesson on the title alone.

          For example:

          1. Treating the 4 Israeli soldiers as more important than the 23 Palestinian children (by leading the story with their deaths and just chucking in the others at the end) implies their lives are of higher value.

          2. Infantilizing active duty soldiers as "teenagers" while not emphasizing the age of the schoolkids, despite many of them being demonstrably younger.

          3. The classic use of the passive voice: Israelis are "killed" while Palestinians merely "die".

          4. Putting scare quotes around "23 die" subtly undermines the credibility of that claim. Maybe no one died, and the Palestinians are just lying?

          5. Using the word "attack" for Hezbollah actions, but choosing a more neutral, clinical word like "strike" for Israeli aggression.

          6. Allowing Israeli sources to dictate the framing of the story ("Israel names teenage soldiers") etc.

          7. Actually naming the Israeli soldiers, but not doing the same for the far greater number of Palestinians, again sends the message to the reader that Palestinian lives don't matter nearly as much, if at all.

          It's truly incredible how much propaganda has been packed into 16 words. We are swimming in an ocean of propaganda. That's why it is crucial to deconstruct it and critically assess everything you read, see and hear.

          https://x.com/AlanRMacLeod/status/1845804207867056271

    • SPC 2.2
      16 October 2024 at 12:15 pm

      The outgoing Democratic POTUS is free to act outside the election cycle (pro Israeli public). Obama did it in Dec 2016 not vetoing UN Resolution 2334 (he and Foggy Bottom were behind it, venting at BN).

      Biden has told BN what he would do (and what he decides goes till late January).

      Lancet has already outlined the risk of lack of respite from war and move to focus on delivery of aid – and that hits home this winter.

      PS. The Democrats have more marginals than Michigan to worry about.

    • Mike the Lefty 2.3
      17 October 2024 at 12:57 pm

      A lot of people, mostly innocent people, will die from IDF butchery in those 30 days.

  4. Bearded Git 4
    16 October 2024 at 10:16 am

    JAG gets it right on Morning Report today in relation to Simeon Brown's anti-democratic comment that he might intervene at Wellington City Council.Worth a listen.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/2018959977/rongotai-mp-on-govt-intervention-at-wellington-city-council

    Of course this has nothing to do with the WCC having a Green Mayor and Brown being the most rabidly anti-Green minister in a cabinet that contains many contenders for this title.

    • Shanreagh 4.1
      16 October 2024 at 10:37 am

      More likely to do with the Mayor not being able to read the room and be quiet instead of scaremongering.

      Tory Whanau is still commenting to the media and being interviewed. It would have been better, in my view, had she stated something like she accepted the deomcratic vote and councillors were committed to working together to achieve the savings needed to get the LTP underway.

      She didn't, she argued the toss instead of keeping her head down.

      PS I voted for TW as Mayor, also Nureddin Abdurahman

      PPS Although nominally a green/lab/left wing city JAG is not universally beloved in this community.

      • AB 4.1.1
        16 October 2024 at 11:32 am

        From someone looking on from outside Wellington, TW does sound like a loose cannon who has no idea about message discipline and so makes herself an easy target for this country's cohesive, well-funded and malevolent right-wing propaganda machine that includes RW politicians, sympathetic private media, business networks and think-tanks. She should know better than to turn up at a gunfight armed only with feelings. That said, Genter was still pretty much spot on – at least in a big picture sense. Both these things can be true simultaneously.

      • Bearded Git 4.1.2
        16 October 2024 at 11:44 am

        Shanreagh:JAG is not "nominally" anything. She has been an excellent Green MP over many years doing great work particularly in relation to Transport.

        I suppose you have bought into the scurrilous nonsense the anti-Green MSM dragged up a few months ago, where an obvious National Party voter attacked JAG because she hated bike lanes, JAG being a key supporter of bike lanes of course.

        • alwyn 4.1.2.1
          16 October 2024 at 11:47 am

          He didn't seem to be classing JAG as being "nominally" anything.

          He was talking about the City of Wellington.

          • Bearded Git 4.1.2.1.1
            16 October 2024 at 11:57 am

            True Alwyn…..my mistake….I should have read the comment a little more closely.

            But you will see that, despite this, most of my comment is still valid, though I doubt you will agree with it.

      • Tiger Mountain 4.1.3
        16 October 2024 at 11:59 am

        Tory got ticked off by RNZ this morning for not accepting interviews, to the extent they went through the dates…er…cough cough…anyone remember a certain Sirkey that would not front for a long time, and a certain Auckland Mayor–Brown, and a certain Baldrick and any number of Ministers such as Mrs Costello who refused to put in an appearance on RNZ.

        Really all elected politicians should be available to the public as often as possible on media channels, but if the no shows are going to be targeted hit the right as well.

      • SPC 4.1.4
        16 October 2024 at 12:27 pm

        So you voted for the Mayor knowing her plan for the Golden Mile and cycle ways?

        Tory Whanau is still commenting to the media and being interviewed. It would have been better, in my view, had she stated something like she accepted the deomcratic vote and councillors were committed to working together to achieve the savings needed to get the LTP underway.

        You stated this yesterday, comment 9 GD. It is still untrue.

        FACT CHECKED

        “I’ve accepted the democratic outcome. I think it’s probably the most difficult decision that some of our councillors have had to make but I am going to respect it.”

        “It’s been a difficult couple of years but again, for this last year, I’m just going to be super focused, hyper-focused, on delivering a successful Long Term Plan,” she said. “Yes, it’s had a pause and we’ve had to delay it but we can still get there.”

        https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/wellington-mayor-tory-whanau-discusses-aftermath-of-airport-shares-sale-on-the-tiles-local-edition/JJOY7YX6KZD5XDEV27P2ZK6DZM/

  5. georgecom 5
    16 October 2024 at 11:11 am

    Today NZ Herald, Richard Prebble thinks he has the solution to the health crisis unfolding on Shane Reti's watch. No surprise, privatise the health system. Apparently he tells us Roger Douglas has written a plan to achieve this. The neo-liberal dinosaurs really are a one trick pony

    • bwaghorn 5.1
      16 October 2024 at 11:26 am

      Could he point to any country anywhere that had privatized health with a healthy population as the out come

      • AB 5.1.1
        16 October 2024 at 11:43 am

        No, but in the all-seeing mind of Prebs, that's only because none of them have had the courage to do it properly. You know, scorched earth, year zero, raze everything and let the divine God of perfect market competition rise phoenix-like to create heaven on earth. Prebs is rehashing the insane zealotry of the mid-80's to mid-90's all over again. Ignore him – he's barking, just like the publication that stoops to giving him a platform.

    • Jilly Bee 5.2
      16 October 2024 at 12:25 pm

      Oh dear, has Prebs been thinking again.wink

      • PsyclingLeft.Always 5.2.1
        17 October 2024 at 7:52 am

        Well..I would not like to be inside the thought processes of Richard maddog Prebble…..

    • joe90 5.3
      16 October 2024 at 12:30 pm

      Roger Douglas has written a plan to achieve this.

      Found it!

      /

      Group health insurance

      Group health insurance refers to a policy offered to a group of people — usually employees who work at the same company. They can choose between individual plans or family plans that cover their immediate family members. In most cases, the employer pays for a portion of the plan, so costs may be lower compared to other options.

      Individuals enrolled in group health plans paid an average annual premium of $8,435 in 2023 (about $703 per month), according to data from independent health and medical research firm KFF. For families, the total annual premium averaged at $23,968 — or about $1,997 per month.

      Those prices are higher than they were in 2022, with both family and individual group health plan premiums jumping by 7%.

      Individual health insurance

      […]

      We analyzed nearly 790 Marketplace plans across 33 states to determine average pricing. For overall averages, we looked at age groups that included children and those up to 60 years old. Policy sizes included individuals up to families with three or more children. Premium data does not account for any tax subsidies that might lower the cost of your health care.

      Monthly premium costs

      For monthly premiums, the overall average cost was $1,178. But that number can change a lot based on age. For instance, a 21-year-old paid a monthly average premium of just $397, while a 50-year-old paid an average of $712.

      Deductibles

      The average yearly deductible for an individual was $5,101. That number more than doubles for families, who had an average deductible of $10,310 per year.

      Maximum out-of-pocket expenses

      The maximum out-of-pocket expense for individual policyholders averaged $8,335. It doubled for families, averaging $16,672 per year

      https://edition.cnn.com/cnn-underscored/money/how-much-is-health-insurance

      • Ad 5.3.1
        16 October 2024 at 2:07 pm

        Just like a MECA then Mr Prebble.

      • Georgecom 5.3.2
        16 October 2024 at 2:11 pm

        I see douglases plans on a roll whenever i take a seat on the can. Both of equal value in my opinion

      • SPC 5.3.3
        16 October 2024 at 2:29 pm

        The price of allowing profit in health care.

        It is of course a way to take the progressive tax system out of providing for health.

        It is trickle up to the rich and in a nation with no CGT or estate tax.

        Back in 1983 Roger Douglas argued an assets tax was better than a CGT (this was when we had an estate tax).

  6. SPC 6
    16 October 2024 at 12:46 pm

    This is so predictable – 3 of the 4 right wing councillors (who voted for the airport sale in 2023 and reversed their position to cause a "crisis") have “admitted” it was just part of their political campaign.

    Councillor Diane Calvert, who was among those calling for intervention, said "shambles" applied more to mayor Tory Whanau and her leadership.

    She said she felt the mayor was reluctant to receive any help from other councillors, and advice from council staff was not neutral.

    Councillor Nicola Young said the government appointing a Crown observer would be a step in the right direction, and criticised the mayor's communication with other councillors.

    She said the city was getting further into debt and she was concerned about how unaffordable it was all becoming.

    Councillor Ray Chung said he would like the government to call an early election.

    Calvert accepted the advice in 2023 voting for sale of shares.

    Her lack of trust in council staff is what attracted the attention of Stuart Crosby.

    The systemic problems of trust between Wellington City Council's executive and its elected members mean it is "incredibly close" to needing intervention, a former president of Local Government New Zealand says.

    He was referring to the councillors not heeding advice from council staff – in line with a report commissioned by council to sell the airport shares – thus regarding Calvert and her 3 right wingers as part of that problem.

    But they only did that as a ploy to destroy a council on which they were a minority.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/530935/wellington-city-council-incredibly-close-to-needing-government-intervention-former-lgnz-president

    • Ad 6.1
      16 October 2024 at 2:02 pm

      A full booklet of political suicide notes.

      Can anyone recall Peters v Shipley and the Wellington Airport shares? It demolished the government.

    • Georgecom 6.2
      16 October 2024 at 4:28 pm

      If Ray Chung thinks things are such that elections are needed then he should do the principled thing and resign. A bye election will cost rate payers a whole lot less than a city wide election

  7. feijoa 7
    16 October 2024 at 2:04 pm

    As a Wellingtonian, I would say the WCC has had major problems since the Seddon and Kaikoura earthquakes. Andy Foster as mayor came in for enormous criticism too.

    Broken buildings, broken pipes, it is all costing a fortune to fix- the library being the latest. The Town Hall is costing a fortune, the MFC needs repairs, the list goes on. There are multiple cultural venues dotted all over the place needing upkeep (Stadium, Opera House, St James, Michael Fowler C, Town Hall, TSB Arena, ), then they stupidly built a Conference Centre.

    I would also say the COC's removal of LGWM funding has upset everything too.

    I would also say Tory had an enthusiastic demographic of young people voting for her and it pisses me right off that all the old Wellington money is coming out, bleating that they aren't getting their own way. I am so sick of the moaning about cycleways.

    The pipes are doing good, wonderful job by all the Wellington Water staff- haven't seen a fountain for months now.

    • PsyclingLeft.Always 7.1
      16 October 2024 at 3:07 pm

      Hi Feijoa, re those Anti Cycle moaners..led by the Anti-Cyclist Kultur Warrior himself : Simeon Brown.

      Some links in response

      Are New Zealanders 'sick and tired' of spending on cycleways? Not according to this survey

      Transport Minister Simeon Brown justified these changes, in part, by claiming "New Zealanders are sick and tired of the amount of money going into cycleways". But the picture of public support for cycleways is much more complex than the minister suggests.

      https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/on-the-inside/527575/are-new-zealanders-sick-and-tired-of-spending-on-cycleways-not-according-to-this-survey

      They are actually a Good Thing . (well some of us already knew that : )

      Cycle lanes are good for business, actually

      Last week, supermarket giant Foodstuffs lost its attempt to block the construction of a cycle lane outside Thorndon New World in Wellington.

      Despite keeping people safe and providing more low-carbon transport options, cycle lanes tend to frazzle some who seem particularly wedded to the idea of reserving swathes of precious public space for storing private cars.

      Which is understandable if you’re a street-level operation stressed out about competing with malls or retail parks with hundreds of car parks. But these concerns are unfounded. Cyclists and walkers have money to spend too.

      https://thespinoff.co.nz/science/17-05-2024/cycle-lanes-are-good-for-business-actually

      And a humorous take on it….For those with a sense of : )

      Plucky Foodstuffs crushed by the iron fist of big bicycle

      https://thespinoff.co.nz/business/07-05-2024/plucky-foodstuffs-crushed-by-the-iron-fist-of-big-bicycle

      Good to hear from someone in Welly about situation.

      • satty 7.1.1
        16 October 2024 at 4:39 pm

        What's completely missing are talks from the businesses that support less cars and less car parking (like the ones applying for parklets, where carparks in front of their business are transformed into outside serving areas – cafes, bars, restaurants). Some serious question how much the existing car parking actually benefits the businesses, like on Courtney Place. How many car parks are there compared to number of seats to fill in all the bars, restaurants etc… the people that parked there are just a "drop-in-the-ocean" compared to the numbers required to support all those businesses.

        For me it goes a lot further though:

        How much do we have to transform our households, our neighbourhood, our city, our country to tackle pollution and greenhouse gas emissions? We have to start somewhere and we have to do it fast.

        If Wellington, arguably one of the most compact cities, one with the most "Greenies" in the country, is unable to shift from excessive car usage to more sustainable form of transport, what chance is there to transform Auckland or smaller, more rural areas?

        Which leaves only one point: Could the WCC execute the roadworks in a way that it doesn't impact businesses as much? Can it be done cheaper?

        • PsyclingLeft.Always 7.1.1.1
          16 October 2024 at 5:09 pm

          How many people did NACT1 slash out of jobs..and consequential spending at businesses ? And…I could parse this link for you? But have a read…Patrick Morgan talks sense…

          Swapping car parks for cycleways: Business destroyer or new opportunity?

          Morgan said a range of factors contributed to the struggles facing businesses in the capital.

          “I understand times are hard for some retailers, but bike lanes are not a cause of that. If you make thousands of people redundant in Wellington, that is bound to have an impact on spending.”

          “People shop, not cars.”

          https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350412553/swapping-car-parks-cycleways-business-destroyer-or-new-opportunity

          • David 7.1.1.1.1
            17 October 2024 at 10:19 am

            Yeah people shop, not cars. Also people shop not bikes… I have a feeling most people who do the actual shopping, going to restaurants, cafes, bars etc, generally drive or are passengers in a car. Being able to drive into Wellington, park and then do whatever people need to do is important.

            • satty 7.1.1.1.1.1
              17 October 2024 at 11:06 am

              My observations are:

              The majority of cars in the CBD don't do any business, they simply drive through. Wellington CBD traffic is not much more than a dozen of alternative motorway lanes with some high-rise buildings in between.

              The main areas in the CBD, the ones with the highest foot traffic, have hardly any on-street parking; certainly not enough parking to sustain all the businesses on the given roads. See

              • Lambton Quay (5 carparks between Midland Park and Willis Street)
              • Willis Street (0 carparks between Lambton Quay and Manners Mall)
              • Victoria Street (never counted them, maybe 2 dozen)
              • Manners Mall (0 carparks)
              • Dixon Street (lots of places are now parklets there, not many carparks left between Taranaki Street and Willis Street)
              • Cuba Street (not many on lower, none in the middle, some at the upper end)
              • Courtney Place (the last time I counted – around COVID times – it was around 50?, some time-dependent. Also some parklets there now – maybe Tasting Room was the original parklet?)

              So the large majority of those people either didn't use a car to get into the city in the first place or parked somewhere in a distance and walked to those businesses.

              • David …
                17 October 2024 at 3:49 pm

                I commute into Wellington by car to work, or I work from home. Public transport adds a couple of hours to my work day, is unreliable and expensive.

                Whenever I go to Wellington for shopping, or entertainment, I drive, park and then do whatever I’m planning on doing.

                Unfortunately the inner city has lost a large number of on street parking spaces over the past few years, this does make finding a parking space harder in the evenings and weekends and discourages people from going into the Wellington central city in the evening for entertainment.

                I’m happy to spend my money elsewhere outside of the Wellington central city. Something the Wellington council seems to ignore, is that many of Wellington’s better inner city restaurants, bars and cafes, have relied on well heeled customers from outside the inner city, or from the Hutt or Porirua cities. The same can be said for the inner city “party zone”, fewer punters, means less “buzz” so the punters go elsewhere.

                • PsyclingLeft.Always …
                  17 October 2024 at 4:36 pm

                  Ok so sometimes you car to work, sometimes you work from home…and you do not like the Welly Public Transport !

                  Can you let us know…

                  What distance/where travel from ?

                  How much your car costs to run to and from? (incl fuel/rego/wof/insurance/wear and tear ie tyres etc….)

                  Time spent travelling..incl traffic jams ?

                  If you can find a park (seems to be plenty of, according to links previously provided )…how much that costs?

                  And..re your :

                  inner city “party zone”

                  Are you meaning cars driven to bars? If that means less intoxicated driving around because they cant..park out front ? Then good. Anyway I'm sure most would get an uber or minibus dropoff and safe pickup…

                  • David …
                    18 October 2024 at 12:12 pm

                    Psycling… Sorry, I am not going to justify my decision/choice of my transport to/from work. As a grown adult I am more than capable of choosing how I live my life, & I do have an expectation that others who may want me to change how I live my life, listen to my concerns and respond to me in an appropriate adult manner. This is something Wellington city council employees refuse to do.

                    For myself, and many others, it’s extremely difficult to find car parking in the evenings or weekends within the central city. Unfortunately the cycling brigade dismisses out of hand any public dissent that is in any way critical of cycling lanes, and the removal of car parking.

                    Drink driving is not the issue. Many people are capable of going out for an evening without drinking to excess or even not drinking alcohol.

                    • PsyclingLeft.Always …
                      18 October 2024 at 2:07 pm

                      You are the one that is criticising Public Transport.In particular Wellingtons.

                      Public transport adds a couple of hours to my work day, is unreliable and expensive.

                      And yet you dont want to put up your own comparisons ?….So from that ..unsurpringly its just your reckons…and innate dislike of same…and also Cycle Lanes.

                      I and others have provided Links etc.

                      As for the "cycling brigade" !? There are many people that would like Children…and Disabled people who also Cycle..to be safe on their travels.

                      I will leave you to your reckons. Enjoy the Summer of Cycling : )

                    • Cinder …
                      18 October 2024 at 5:38 pm

                      "I do have an expectation that others who may want me to change how I live my life, listen to my concerns and respond to me in an appropriate adult manner. This is something Wellington city council employees refuse to do."

                      No consultation is a lie. A complete lie. Just because you didn't get what you want, doesn't mean there was no consultation.

                      I have been to many community transport meetings regarding Wellington cycleways and parking. And…

                      “The council thinks they can do whatever they want, simply because they are duly elected representatives with statutory authority over traffic decisions on the local roads and had followed all the legally required processes. It was completely undemocratic,”

                      From here, which documents one of the ongoing lies from petrol huffers like yourself:

                      https://thespinoff.co.nz/business/07-05-2024/plucky-foodstuffs-crushed-by-the-iron-fist-of-big-bicycle

                      Now, about your little inversion of reality. The statement "I do have an expectation that others who may want me to change how I live my life, listen to my concerns and respond to me in an appropriate adult manner"

                      You're exercising a privilege, not a right. But as a typical NZ motorist, you don't understand that.

                      Show me the legislation or by-law which grants you the right to leave your pile of rusting debt on public land? Expensive public land in the CBD.

                      And while we are at it, show me the consultation process for, or rights of, motorists to shorten our lives?

                      https://www.nzdoctor.co.nz/article/news/fuming-about-toxins-traffic-air-pollution-shortens-lives-and-puts-kiwis-hospital

                    • David []
                      18 October 2024 at 6:42 pm

                      Cinder, You are deliberately being dishonest about what I’ve written, hopefully you spend no more than a couple of minutes writing your comment. I don’t engage with people who do this

                    • Cinder []
                      18 October 2024 at 9:06 pm

                      You disagree with simple statements of fact?!?

                      And don't engage with people who state them?

                      May I suggest that you check that your vehicles exhaust is not entering the passenger cabin.

                    • David []
                      19 October 2024 at 5:45 am

                      You’re being dishonest, I pointed that out, and yet you continue to be dishonest. Here’s a suggestion, don’t say I wrote something, when I did not…

                • Cinder …
                  19 October 2024 at 11:25 am

                  So you didn't state this?

                  "I do have an expectation that others who may want me to change how I live my life, listen to my concerns and respond to me in an appropriate adult manner. This is something Wellington city council employees refuse to do."

                  The council have had consultation after consultation on all the changes you are whining about:

                  So unless you have some specific complaint about your personal interactions with the council, you are lying.

                  The Golden Mile consultation began 5 years ago

                  https://www.letstalk.wellington.govt.nz/golden-mile

                  Having been in some of these consultations, I have encountered people like yourself who believe that because they have driven for a few decades they are experts in transport policy and planning. You're not.

                  So while you whinge and whine like a farmer about having to spend minutes trawling around the block, looking for a carpark and then complaining that you had to walk a few hundred metres, here are some things for you to consider:

                  The people who live in these wards have made their democratic choices and decisions about future transport provisions. You don't even live in those wards. Why do you hate democracy?

                  There is this amazing facility right by Lambton Quay, you may not have heard of it, its called the train station and there are buses that run from there right along Lambton Quay and Courtney Place, almost every 5 minutes. It was originally built to serve the Hutt because the landed gentry of Wellington had exiled the brown and the poor there and they needed some way to get the labour pool into the city. Do you avoid it because you don't want to mix with the poors?

                  You pathetic bleating makes me think of my old neighbour in Newtown. Who at the age of 28, suffering from MS and using a walker commuted to Ghuznee Street and Lambton Quay every day using the bus. While negotiating signage and cars littering the footpaths.

                  And here you are bitching about the restrictions on exercising your privilege to walk as little as possible.

                  Get a grip. You chose to live where ever it is you live and rely on exercising a privilege which is exercised at the discretion of the state.

                  Are you a child who cannot take responsibility for their own choices?

                  I think you need to attend a Civics 101 course. This whole privilege vs rights argument seems to have eluded you.

                  • PsyclingLeft.Always …
                    19 October 2024 at 12:13 pm

                    Hi Cinder. Sadly some people..you will never reach. Like the fuel they use, they are Dinosaur…minded.

                    If interested here is a good link to what could be..if we can be Future Thinking. I have many more and , Positive Thinking : )

                    Who is part of the problem ?

                    Convenient cities become conspiracy targets

                    Today, The Detail talks to Auckland University senior lecturer in architecture and planning Bill McKay about the concept, and extremism researcher and author Byron C Clark about the conspiracy.

                    NZ love of The Car

                    He says the car is largely responsible for that change and altering people’s perceptions is hard.

                    “In a way, New Zealanders see their cars a bit like Americans see guns – ‘don’t you dare try and take that off me’.

                    https://newsroom.co.nz/2023/11/02/convenient-cities-become-conspiracy-targets/

                    People love the idea of 20-minute neighbourhoods. So why isn’t it top of the agenda?

                    https://theconversation.com/people-love-the-idea-of-20-minute-neighbourhoods-so-why-isnt-it-top-of-the-agenda-131193

                    Connecting New Zealand

                    https://www.publictransportforum.nz/

                    Electric cars alone won’t save the planet. We’ll need to design cities so people can walk and cycle safely

                    https://theconversation.com/electric-cars-alone-wont-save-the-planet-well-need-to-design-cities-so-people-can-walk-and-cycle-safely-171818

                    Take care. Sustainable City..and Planet : )

                  • David …
                    19 October 2024 at 12:16 pm

                    Cinder, wow that must have taken more than a few minutes to write… You sound like a uppity middle class white woman who gets upset when the “oiks from the Hutt” are disobedient…

                    [You sound like an uppity middle class white moron who doesn’t explain anything and doesn’t address the arguments against what you did say but rather goes for the personal attack. It’s a Bayly-type of diversion to focus on the word(s) you didn’t use rather than commenting in good faith. Put up or shut up and you’re running out of warnings from me – Incognito]

                    • Incognito …
                      19 October 2024 at 12:41 pm

                      Mod note

                    • David …
                      19 October 2024 at 7:51 pm

                      Incognito, if Im a moron I'm way above average.

                      I’m more than happy to answer questions, when I’m asked politely and respectfully. I felt that both Psycling.. and Cinder were dismissive, disrespectful and condescending with their initial response to me. Therefore any response from me is likely to be dismissed.

                      However I’m more than happy to discuss this with you. The way I choose to live and organise my life is due to me having to juggle family, community commitments, doing stuff for myself and my health. Time is important to me, I don’t have enough at present, using public transport leaves me with less time and therefore would cause hardship to others who depend on me.

                      I’ve had previous experiences with both Wellington City and Hutt City officials who have very dismissive of residents views on a number of issues.

                      It is getting increasingly difficult to find car parking in Wellington city in the evenings and weekends. Sure I can afford an uber, but that comes out of my entertainment budget, so less money spent with local businesses. So my apologies to you for causing you extra work, hope you have a good evening.

                    • Cinder …
                      22 October 2024 at 8:15 pm

                      Sorry if I have to explain elementary concepts to you using big words and long sentences. But it seems that you dislike the fact that I know what I'm talking about, can cut through your bullshit to the core of the matter and call a spade a spade

                      I also enjoy exercising my writing skills and I'm a quick typist. I also enjoy mocking people, so you've struck the trifecta you lucky bugger!

                      Yes, we are dismissive, condescending and disrespectful of your position for one simple reason:

                      You believe exercising your privilege is more important than respecting our democratic decisions.

                      Its summed up here by you: "I do have an expectation that others who may want me to change how I live my life, listen to my concerns and respond to me in an appropriate adult manner"

                      That is what the people of Central Wellington have collectively done – told you to leave fewer piles of unsightly, noisy, deadly, rusting debt in our streets. Also – we do not exist just to serve you're bourgeois face artisanal sauerkraut and a sour, we live here, in greater density than whatever hellscape suburb you've condemned yourself to, its our home. And like an "adult", you packed a sad.

                      You think that there being fewer car parks means people "want me to change how I live my life"…

                      You couldn't make that up! It's so good that Greater Auckland think you're a prime candidate for this weeks wrap up. Up there with the moron last year complaining about buses being in the "car lane".

                      But then, you're a special boy, mummies little treasure made of spun sugar. You deserve special treatment because apparently you're time poor and no one else ever is. Seems like you've just made poor decisions about your choices in life. I imagine all that debt on that depreciating asset limits your choices though. Maybe juggle things a bit better, or do less, or get a vehicle that isn't a wankpanzer and can be parked in a smaller space and doesn't hit our trade deficit and ongoing infrastructure needs like a… like a… like a 4WD into a child.

                      And – Oh No!!!Were public officials dismissive of you? I imagine its probably because you believe you have some non-existent "rights" as a motorist and because of this:

                      Oh for Gods’s sake. This is a reason why I never apologise or explain my actions

                      https://thestandard.org.nz/luxon-tells-the-world-andrew-bayly-lied/#comment-2014944

                      You do realise that you sound like a sociopath right? However, given your love of sniffing tailpipes, it makes perfect sense

                      "People who cannot apologize often have such deep feelings of low self-worth that their fragile egos cannot absorb the blow of admitting they were wrong

                      In these situations… they dispute the facts, come up with ridiculous excuses or pivot to petty remarks.

                      Do tell?

                      But when someone never takes responsibility and is habitually incapable of apologizing, it’s a sign that they’re a person with a fragile ego and a weak sense of self."

                      https://ideas.ted.com/why-some-people-cant-apologize/

                      Boy! Am I surprised…

                      By the way, I think I heard Farrar calling for you. run along…

      • Kay 7.1.2
        16 October 2024 at 5:32 pm

        A serious problem with the cycleways is the major disruption to the lives of people with disabilities, especially mobility problems. If all parking in the vicinity of your home has vanished, it's not possible to get picked up by a taxi, or have home help come. And then there's all the visitors that can't come by because they won't (or can't) walk 5+ minutes from the fluke park they found.

        There's been several letters to the Post recently about how people with mobility problems can no longer visit the Botanical gardens as the parking is now a cycleway.

        Denying people access to public places breaches the human rights act (sorry can't link on my phone) and falls under disability discrimination. So they've broken the law. This was something the council knew about in advance, but chose to throw this group of people under the bus (which not everyone can catch), and are refusing to undertake anything to help mitigate the situation.

        WCC can rot in hell as far as I'm concerned. Enough that I might vote right wing for the first time in my life next year.

  8. Ad 8
    16 October 2024 at 2:19 pm

    This Smithfield AFFCO Timaru closure will kill the livelihoods of over 600 people directly and many more indirectly.

    This is a massive blow to those families, to E Tu, and to Timaru as a whole.

    Makes the Ruapehu mill closures look very small.

    • bwaghorn 8.1
      16 October 2024 at 3:36 pm

      Makes the Ruapehu mill closures look very small.

      Na it doesn’t timaru has a far larger population with industrial areas , and many other options to soak up staff, not saying it's good but it's nowhere as bad as ruapehus lose of 2 mills.

    • James Simpson 8.2
      17 October 2024 at 10:40 am

      There will be more of this pain unfortunately.

      Land use is changing in response to climate change. Farm land is becoming forestry. This is a very positive thing….but there is always a cost. In this case its the job of the people who processed the animals from those now former farms.

      • bwaghorn 8.2.1
        17 October 2024 at 12:06 pm

        I doubt it's pines in south Canterbury, it's dairy, and making milk powder is a lot less labour intensive than processing sheep.

        • James Simpson 8.2.1.1
          18 October 2024 at 12:26 pm

          Yeah I was more referring to future closures, or at least job losses. I am thinking areas like Northland, Gisborne and Hawkes Bay

  9. SPC 9
    16 October 2024 at 5:03 pm

    The new Mayor of Tauranga says he would be comfortable with the council operating outside the law of the land.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/ldr/530931/tauranga-will-fluoridate-its-water-despite-mayor-s-no-vote

  10. Joe90 10
    16 October 2024 at 5:37 pm

    From conscience to cooker.

    /

    @willsommer

    Russell Brand, remade as a right-wing Christian influencer, is now selling a "magical amulet" that protects you from WiFi signals and other "evil energies." Only $239.99 per amulet.

    https://xcancel.com/willsommer/status/1846024507758162396

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