Open mike 16/07/2011

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, July 16th, 2011 - 54 comments
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Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the link to Policy in the banner).

Step right up to the mike…

54 comments on “Open mike 16/07/2011 ”

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  1. Secret Squirrel 1
    16 July 2011 at 7:19 am

    Dunedin reactions to proposed CGT:

    Grant Roydhouse, Accountant and President Otago Property Investors Assn:

    Imagine a capital gains tax was in place now as proposed. The Labour Party calculations by Berl Economics on page six estimated an annual price appreciation rate of 3.5%. Using this as a basis, this would give an annual increase in the first twelve months of $8,750 on which tax would later be payable of $1,312.

    THIS AMOUNT OF TAX IN THE FIRST YEAR IS THE EQUIVALENT TO $25 PER WEEK.

    I would conclude that over time rents would need to adjust by an equivalent amount to maintain the current position, if a similar number of landlords would be expected to facilitate supply of accommodation.

    The other major factor which effects Rent levels is interest rates… and they are forecast to rise from later this year. Planning a new tax on landlords to apply 2013 might not be ideal for those who might want to rent housing.

    Take away the emotive language and focus on facts. The Average property Investor is not a high income earner and may have one to three properties. Trying to save for retirement so as to ring fence themselves from Government!

    CGT + interest rate rise = rent rise (++)

    CGT means ‘significant changes to tax regimes’ (ODT)

    Scott Mason, tax principal at WHK in Dunedin, said a move to CGT would be an “absolute, fundamental change to Kiwis’ mind-sets” – developed over more than 100 years.

    He said introducing CGT would be a “winner” for valuers, lawyers and accountants, while the “losers” would be “every Kiwi striving to do better for themselves by saving and investing in assets, as opposed to spending in the here and now”.

    Dunedin has a unique mix of investment properties with a high proportion of student rentals. If rents get a double whammy from rising interest rates and CGT how much will it impact on Dunedin as an attractive proposition for education?

    Students won’t buy properties in Dunedin if landlords decide it’s not worth investing here under CGT.

    What does the presumed new Labour MP for Dunedin North think?

    Just watched excellent presentation on youtube. David Cunliffe explains how Labour is going to build a fairer future for New Zealand. Superb – and timely.

    Good plug for Labour. No consideration for Dunedin North.

    Come on David, are you standing for a party or an electorate?

    • ropata 1.1
      16 July 2011 at 8:17 am

      Is National paying you to recycle these discredited FUD arguments all over the internet? This is what I gleaned:
      – The wealthy Property Investors Assn wants to keep their tax free speculation profits
      – Some people think they have the right to evade their tax obligations
      – The suckers buying houses to live in ought to be shafted by a bubble economy and be grateful
      – The bank will be stoked to have another Kiwi paying mortgage interest to its Aussie shareholders
      – Landlords will be “forced” to put up rent (stop the press! landlord tries to increas rent!)
      – It’s all so frightening I MUST USE CAPITAL LETTERS TO EMPHASISE that I might be taxed for money I gained WITHOUT DOING ANYTHING PRODUCTIVE

    • Lazy Susan 1.2
      16 July 2011 at 9:40 am

      Breaking News – the President of the Otago Property Investors Assn doesn’t like a CGT!

      A CGT closes a great big gaping hole in our tax regime that has enabled people to convert taxable income to non-taxable capital gain and therefore avoid paying tax. This is unfair and is a burden on all other taxpayers.

      My previous boss had an annual income of $250,000 p.a. and boasted he never paid more than $10,000 p.a. in tax as he offset his income against his highly geared rental property portfolio.

      a move to CGT would be an “absolute, fundamental change to Kiwis’ mind-sets” – developed over more than 100 years.

      Sure will – no more using property speculation to avoid income tax.

      Need to do a bit more secret squirreling if a couple of quotes from vested interests is the best you can come up with.

      • Secret Squirrel 1.2.1
        16 July 2011 at 9:51 am

        A CGT closes a great big gaping hole in our tax regime
        But will a CGT with a myriad of little holes do it?

        I’ve looked for local comment because a change in emphasis on investment taxation could have a big impact on Dunedin. I’ll happily post different views on it, CGT deserves a good debate.

        I don’t like Key dismissing it completely. That’s bad politics.

        I’d prefer to see a CGT designed with expert input and wide electorate now, not tweaking or window dressing the final product, and not designed around potential voter groups in a party backroom.

        A fundamental change to our tax system like this deserves far more than being an election year bribe and scare football. Doesn’t it?

        • Lazy Susan 1.2.1.1
          16 July 2011 at 10:09 am

          But will a CGT with a myriad of little holes do it?

          So you’ve agreed that there is a great big gaping hole in the tax regime that needs to be fixed. Not doing anything about it is a bit like not building a dam because you’re worried there might be a few leaks.

          I’ll happily post different views on it, CGT deserves a good debate

          Go on then do it.

          A fundamental change to our tax system like this deserves far more than being an election year bribe and scare football.

          It’s called policy actually and all being well it’s what elections should be won or lost on. Or would you prefer us to elect MPs on their looks or ability to “smile and wave”.

          • Secret Squirrel 1.2.1.1.1
            16 July 2011 at 10:16 am

            No dam is better than a dam with holes that you have no idea in advance how open they will get.

            Policies are important for elections but it’s also important to have faith in those behind the policies, that they will consult and listen and respond, and not just emerge from a party back room with what they think is a vote winner and try to shut off valid criticism and debate.

            A debate on something as big and important as a a major tax restructuring should last for more than a couple of weeks, shouldn’t it?

            Trying to frame it now as “choose this or something else” is trying to shut down debate when it should only be starting,

            • felix 1.2.1.1.1.1
              16 July 2011 at 12:43 pm

              “…it’s also important to have faith in those behind the policies, that they will consult and listen and respond…”

              Riiiight. Like National do. Or like you do, here. Goodo.

              “…and not just emerge from a party back room with what they think is a vote winner…”

              It’s becoming apparent that your real problem with a CGT is that you think it’s a vote-winner too.

              “Trying to frame it now as “choose this or something else” is trying to shut down debate when it should only be starting”

              Actually this has been debated for decades. You’ve only just started to take notice now that you have to for political reasons, and if you’re too late to be involved that’s nobody’s fault but yours.

              Said the little red hen.

              • Secret Squirrel …
                16 July 2011 at 12:46 pm

                Actually this has been debated for decades. You’ve only just started to take notice now that you have to for political reasons

                I thought that was referring to the Labour Party, because according to Goff they only started to take notice this year when they decided they need to compete with asset sales policies.

                • felix …
                  16 July 2011 at 12:55 pm

                  Yeah, compete with asset sales.

                  You’re such a card.

                  • Secret Squirrel …
                    16 July 2011 at 1:07 pm

                    Goff is the card. This is what he was reported as saying:

                    Asset sale proposal behind planned capital gains tax – Goff

                    The catalyst for Labour’s support of a capital gains tax was the government’s proposal to sell shares in state-owned assets.

                    Labour leader Phil Goff said at the launch of his party’s tax policy this afternoon that the proposal was a declaration of intent that effectively called on Labour to find the political courage to map out a better, more viable alternative.

                    Your house of cards is a bit flimsy.

                • Colonial Viper …
                  16 July 2011 at 3:58 pm

                  when they decided they need to compete with asset sales policies.

                  Trying to rely on a one liner to explain why Labour came up with a CGT communicates an ignorance of how policy priorities are chosen and the detailed process needed to forge policy which is strong and workable.

                  The CGT does a lot more than compete with National’s asset sales agenda, it demonstrates a willingness on Labour’s behalf to rebalance the entire economy and broaden the tax base, a process which Labour has explicitly said will take years.

                  English and Key on the other hand have a one hit asset sell off. Not much competition really.

                  • Deadly_NZ …
                    16 July 2011 at 8:34 pm

                    And don’t you just cringe when Key and Co, keep on with the “kiwi mums and dads” line. I am a Kiwi Dad I and I don’t have any money saved, So Blinglish is deluding himself if he thinks that we can afford to go out and buy shares willy nilly just so he and his mates can have Tax cuts.

        • felix 1.2.1.2
          16 July 2011 at 12:27 pm

          “I’ll happily post different views on it, CGT deserves a good debate”

          Then why are all the views you post agin it?

          As soon as you actually post some views favouring a CGT, you’ll be taken at your word that you’re all about the debate.

          Based on the evidence to hand, however, no such conclusion can rationally be drawn.

          Once again, your actions do not square with your words.

          • Secret Squirrel 1.2.1.2.1
            16 July 2011 at 12:34 pm

            If you weren’t fixated on try to score wee points you would have noticed. Here’s a recent one:
            http://thestandard.org.nz/reaction-to-labour-tax-package/#comment-352742

            It’s your actions that don’t square with your words.

            • felix 1.2.1.2.1.1
              16 July 2011 at 12:45 pm

              Right, the comment about how Morgan thinks Labour’s proposal is a poor one.

              Yep you’re fair and balanced as a Fox.

              • Secret Squirrel …
                16 July 2011 at 12:54 pm

                If you bothered to see what he said, you’d know that he praised Labour for bringing CGT up, he criticised them for proposing a holey version, and he criticised National for turning their backs on it.

                I’m not going to say “I love Labour’s proposal, there’s nothing at all wrong with it”. That’s not balance, that’s stupidity, which you seem to have woken up with today.

                • felix …
                  16 July 2011 at 12:57 pm

                  For the purposes of this particular discussion, which is about your motivations, I’m more interested in what you said, Pete.

                  Oh that’s right, you don’t say anything.

    • mikesh 1.3
      16 July 2011 at 3:46 pm

      It seems to me that any would-be landlord who can’t make a normal profit should stay out of the market. The trouble is that 15% is not high enough to keep out punters who can’t make it work. I think I would set the rate to 90% with an abatement of 5 percentage points per year to 15% after 15 years. Hopefully this would keep out speculators, and renovators who want to pass off the fruits of their renovations as capital gains.
      The real problem in the rental market is not the lack of a CGT but high property values, and perhaps high interest rates, which makes it difficult for landlords to make a normal profit.

      • mikesh 1.3.1
        16 July 2011 at 10:24 pm

        [It seems to me that any would-be landlord who can’t make a normal profit should stay out of the market. The trouble is that 15% is not high enough to keep out punters who can’t make it work. I think I would set the rate to 90% with an abatement of 5 percentage points per year to 15% after 15 years. Hopefully this would keep out speculators, and renovators who want to pass off the fruits of their renovations as capital gains.]

        It has actually been pointed out to me on another thread that a high rate is not actually needed for CGT to act as a deterrent, and it is clear to me that the pointer outer is correct. So I’m forced to retract all the stuff about a 90% tax rate. lol.

    • millsy 1.4
      16 July 2011 at 4:22 pm

      Secret Squirrel, or should I say Pete George..you forget that landlords have been hiking up rents and pricing a lot of people out of rental accommodation (not to mention becoming more choosy about who they rent to) for the past decade or so.

      And I shall wager that with the changes to state housing being brought in, and thousands of vulnerable families being kicked off the HNZ waiting lists into the private sector, landlords will be taking that oppurtunity to put up rents even further (of course, the slum-lords union is mysteriously silent about that little issue) than they already are and than they could with a capital gains tax.

      Of course, I think that the CGT should be spent on 1) expanding state housing back to pre-1991 levels, 2) higher accomodation supplements, and 3) low interest home loans for people.

  2. ropata 2
    16 July 2011 at 8:42 am

    In the mail this week: a letter from Anne Tolley stating that
    * National plans to cut playcentre funding by 60%
    * The govt prefers to fund places with qualified staff
    * Submissions close at the end of August

    WTF is happening with this nasty attack on community run organisations? Are mothers now required to do a (very expensive) ECE course just to have somewhere to take their kids to play with other children? Does Tolley realise that not everyone can afford fancy preschool daycare or kindergartens?

    Can’t find this anywhere on parliament.nz to make a submission.

    • ropata 2.1
      16 July 2011 at 9:19 am

      Oh yeah they are also pulling Dental Nurses out of primary schools?!

    • prism 2.2
      16 July 2011 at 1:33 pm

      ropata I guess that Ann Tolley belongs to that school where children are valued for the clever things they can do to impress friends and rellies. That is why it is important to concentrate on the Education in Early Childhood Education. Kids should be forced forward, trained like show ponies, that’s more important than socialisation, confidence, physical skills and the use of ideas, imagination with craftwork all to be enjoyed rather than completed and measured to some standard.

      In some Asian countries, I think I have heard recently about South Korea, the children suffer so much if they can’t achieve to their parents expectations that they commit suicide. I think that has been recorded here amongst some PI people. Parents who have not had much schooling themselves, and don’t understand what is involved can pressure their children beyond endurance. I don’t know if this happens particularly with girls, but often they have onerous household and child minding duties as well as trying to do homework and have high test results. I was reading about a NZ pupil on exchange in France, their school went from 8am to as late as 6pm.

    • millsy 2.3
      16 July 2011 at 4:25 pm

      Slightly off topic, but I think all ECE should be playcentres and kindergartens.

      Not really keen on the tendency for profit run baby farms.

  3. Ed 3
    16 July 2011 at 10:30 am

    Even the Stuff National poll
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/
    is coming up with
    Partial Asset Sales 46.9%,
    Capital gains tax and higher top income tax 53.%

    Given the expected bias from an internet poll that has to indicate at least a 10% margin in favour of Labours programme of looking after the many rather than the few.

    • rd 3.1
      16 July 2011 at 11:39 am

      Trade me poll
      CGT no family home 63%
      Sell shares in SOE 22%
      Reduce Spending 11%
      15% CGT across Board 4%

  4. jackal 4
    16 July 2011 at 11:13 am

    Time for Some Dance Lessons

    A while ago, I decided to get some dance lessons. Don’t get me wrong; I can dance already, being a veritable master at the Twist and Funky Chicken. However it’s tap dancing that has always interested me… so I finally paid for some lessons, which are going superbly! There’s still a few months to practice before the big night, and a few spaces left in the tap dance class, so feel free to get your dancing shoes on as well.

  5. Jim Nald 5
    16 July 2011 at 11:25 am

    Post Labour’s CGT launch assessment:

    Phil Goff – Gravitas for Prime Minister
    John Key – Gravy train of tax cuts & asset sales for self and mates

  6. Secret Squirrel 6
    16 July 2011 at 11:41 am

    Phil Goff – Gravitas for Prime Minister

    Unfortunately polls suggest most people don’t see him that way.

    In most of his interviews (and yes, again launching Labour’s CGT) he looks uncomfortable with his message. He looks like he’s saying what he thinks he has to say, and not what he feels and believes.

    He’s been in politics long enough to be familiar with dealing with media interviews, so can’t be inexperience.

    Goff looks like the party that is dragging him in directions he’s not comfortable with. He doesn’t look like he believes in what he’s saying.

    That’s Phil Goff’s biggest problem.

    If he could run Labour his way and believe in what he’s doing he would do better, but there doesn’t seem to be much chance of that happening.

    • jackal 6.1
      16 July 2011 at 2:42 pm

      Pretty large assumptions to make there SS. It’s apparent that Phil Goff is running Labour properly, hence the unbalanced opinion shown on the Nation program today. The right wing program even said the CGT would apply to Christchurch houses, when they will initially be exempt. It’s one thing to tell only one side of the story, but to blatantly lie about a political parties policies is not acceptable.

      It is Labour’s policies that people will vote for. There is already overwhelming support for the well constructed CGT from a wide range of the community. Such a tax will make many speculators vote National, and many more poor people vote Labour. There are more poor people than wealthy, National has made sure of that.

      The other side of the coin is that people will now vote against National, because they have failed to deliver any of their promises. You can harp on about Goff’s mannerisms all you like SS, they beat John Key’s lies and failure hands down.

      • Anne 6.1.1
        16 July 2011 at 6:24 pm

        It’s apparent that Phil Goff is running Labour properly, hence the unbalanced opinion shown on the Nation program today.

        Interesting comment jackal.

        I noted on Thursday evening’s TV1 and TV3 news programmes (immediately after Labour’s announcement) that TV3’s coverage was much fairer and more balanced than TV1. In fact TV1’s coverage was blatantly partisan against Labour and the CGT tax. It suggests to me that the problem is not the respective TV stations as such, but rather the personnel who run the individual news and current affairs programmes.

      • Deadly_NZ 6.1.2
        16 July 2011 at 9:50 pm

        Yeah but don’t forget that SS or Pete or what ever nom de plume he’s using at the moment, has had to stoop to name calling, because every other argument he tries to start is met with solid FACTS. See SS or Pete, FACTS not guesswork, or as in the case of Blinglish and KY Prayer. As in don’t have one!

  7. prism 7
    16 July 2011 at 12:20 pm

    This morning Kim on radionz was interviewing author –
    Gerald Seymour: thrills and terror
    British writer Gerald Seymour worked for many years as an international news reporter. His first thriller, ‘Harry’s Game’, was published in 1975; he has since written a further 25 bestsellers. His new book is ‘A Deniable Death’. (44′11″)

    Interesting chap. He talked about the Balkans and the plight of the Muslims in the area affected by the Serbs’ rush of blood to the head and feet, and how hard it would be to improve the survivors’ life to normality, perhaps never in their lifetime. He wrote Harry’s Game about Northern Ireland and how violence is breaking out there again. (It was probably depression from seeing the infighting of Greek partisans once the Germans were dealt with that led to John Mulgan taking his life.) Old enmities, old traditions allowed to fester need cleaning out with a new mindset, a different approach to contested traditions.

    Then Joky Hen says he isn’t interested in making any changes to the loyalty oath in our parliament because it is long-standing. Making small changes that allow for better relationships and meet ideas of fairness are necessary by wise, intelligent leaders of society. Which Joky Hen isn’t.

  8. Jim Nald 8
    16 July 2011 at 12:24 pm

    Post Labour’s CGT launch assessment:

    Phil Goff – PM Gravitas
    John Key – Cheekey Ass

    Phil Goff – PM Gravitas
    John Key – Smart Ass

  9. prism 9
    16 July 2011 at 12:32 pm

    Intermittent signal July 2011/4 (last11/7)
    People in NZ doing things with ideas for a good future here.
    Radio NZ today – Country Life
    Making a Lifestyle Block Make Money
    The Madsens own a beautiful home in a cluster of lifestyle blocks in North Auckland. They have a few pigs and a sheep on their one hectare of land. So far, so ordinary. But the couple have built a unique way of life by turning the idea of the unproductive lifestyle block on its head. They run a herd of 150 cattle, over a number of blocks. (duration: 11′23″)
    Download: Ogg Vorbis MP3
    and
    A New Home for Koanga Institute and Gardens
    For the past 25 years Kay Baxter and her husband Bob Corker have been saving New Zealand’s heritage fruit trees and vegetables at Koanga Gardens in Kaiwaka. But five years ago they decided they needed a new place to live so have found a new home near Wairoa where they’re developing a Community Land Trust which they hope will support up to 30 families. (duration: 22′03″)
    Download: Ogg Vorbis MP3
    and
    Wool Based Disposable Nappies
    Potroz-Smith Technologies is developing a super absorbent wool-based material called NatraZorb, to be used in disposable nappies, amongst other things. Derelee Potroz-Smith says the idea started on her family’s Taranaki farm with romney sheep. (duration: 6′11″)
    Download: Ogg Vorbis MP3

  10. prism 10
    16 July 2011 at 1:16 pm

    Hi sysop. I cannot get an email to you from Contact . I think I have done everything right, studied and copied the convoluted cypher but no Send.

  11. jackal 11
    16 July 2011 at 1:44 pm

    Worse Off Under National

    Wasn’t Citizen A amusing last night. Cameron Slater squirming when put on the rack concerning his infamous gut shot comments re Arie Smith-Voorkamp was priceless. But then the ignoramus AKA Whaleoil made a most interesting revelation, which seems strange in context to his normal campaign of disinformation…

  12. millsy 12
    16 July 2011 at 4:30 pm

    Meanwhile, in the USA

    Personally I think that there will be a deal to raise the debt ceiling, and that a crisis will be averted. However it will involve slashing what is left of the USA’s social safety net and public sector. And quite a few more people will consigned into hardship, or worse. But really, what’s a few more in the scheme of things.

    40 years ago, only Nixon could go to China. Now in 2011, only Obama could cut Social Security (and Medicare)

    • Colonial Viper 12.1
      16 July 2011 at 4:36 pm

      Republicans and Democrats are two sides of the same coin.

      One possible outcome is that they increase the Federal Debt Limit but with no changes to entitlements or tax increases i.e. they just kick the can a bit further down the road. What do you reckon the chances are?

      • millsy 12.1.1
        16 July 2011 at 4:51 pm

        Nope cant see that happening. After all, folding to his opponents is what Obama does best.

  13. millsy 13
    16 July 2011 at 4:49 pm

    Iwi aristocrats want to keep using foriegn vessels

    Unemployment is skyrocketing among Maori youth, yet tribal leaders would rather employ fishing boat crews from overseas instead of purchasing their own boats and training up their young people to crew them.

    Im guessing they would rather use the profits to dish out scholarships to family members and buy BMW’s.

    If Hone wants any modicum of respect, then he should be highlighting this issue, instead of throwing his toys when he doesn’t get is own way when he is sworn in.

  14. Tiger Mountain 14
    16 July 2011 at 5:25 pm

    So the thin blue line (aka ‘the filth’) have performed another summary execution when they gunned down an admittedly troublesome person at the Headlands Hotel according to media reports….

    “I am able to confirm that the man was challenged, a dog deployed, there was a struggle and Police discharged a firearm.”
    The man died at the scene.
    The police shot was the only shot fired, he said.
    The man’s gun had not yet been found.
    A knife was found near his body, Mr Handcock said.”

    What are tasers and pepper for? Oh thats right, they are to ensure compliance not end this sort of situation in a non lethal way. The fact is whenever the pigs draw a firearm prepare to die as they are trained to aim at the torso only, ie shoot to kill. Fer crissakes they had 30 plus special coppers hanging around and it just looks like a grotesque training exercise given the forces involved.

    • Jim Nald 14.1
      16 July 2011 at 5:37 pm

      I hope they got it right.
      We are not in Afghanistan.

    • chris73 14.2
      16 July 2011 at 11:35 pm

      http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/5295727/Police-shoot-gunman-Anthony-Ratahi-dead

      Really?

      The stand-off began last night, when Ratahi stormed into the hotel’s restaurant and pulled out a rifle.

      “He was yelling at us to get out and I just yelled at the girls to move, move, move and we all ran for the front door,” said witness Kathy Muggeridge.

      “As soon as the guy saw police approaching he pulled out a gun and that was when he pointed it … and told us to go.”

      Witnesses said they saw the gunman beating up a waitress and dragging her across the floor.

      Inspector Pat Handcock told media the man was shot once and died at the scene. He was armed with what was thought to be a handgun.

      Ratahi has previously been charged with assaulting a woman using a knife and injuring with intent to cause grievous bodily harm.

      Early this morning, the man could be heard yelling at police.

      ”You come over here, sonny boy – I’ll shoot you first,” he said.

      Yeah thats right when someones got a firearm its reasonable to use a taser and pepper spray on them

      I know this might be a foriegn concept but maybe in future:
      Don’t kidnap people
      Don’t beat up women (actually don’t beat up anybody)
      Don’t threaten people with a firearm
      Don’t threaten the police with a firearm
      Give yourself up when challenged by the police

  15. Georgecom 15
    16 July 2011 at 8:06 pm

    It is really difficult to follow the logic of John Key & the Nats in relation to a CGT. Is the guy actually thinking lucidly or groping around for some solid arguments against the tax.

    I heard him on the radio today stating how ‘NZ needs more tax payers, not a new tax’. Has it escaped his attention that a CGT is about broadening the tax base and bringing into the tax system parts of the economy which are not taxed at present. Ipso facto, more tax payers.

    On the news tonight Bill English states that people not paying tax on income earned is ok whereas the likes of Selwyn pellett and Gareth Morgan are both saying they should be paying tax on hitherto untaxed profits.

    The Nats have really struggling to be coherent at the moment.

    • Colonial Viper 15.1
      16 July 2011 at 8:13 pm

      They are shotgunning lines to the public to see what hits the target.

      Basically, they are picking random words out of a dictionary to see if something works.

      Should be pretty obvious to all now that they have now plan, no clue, for most New Zealanders.

      • Jim Nald 15.1.1
        16 July 2011 at 8:50 pm

        That sounds right.

        At the rate they are going, they can be their own target.

        Along the lines of my comments further above and more succinctly:

        Phil Goff: Gravitas
        John Key (donkey): Ass

  16. Draco T Bastard 16
    16 July 2011 at 9:22 pm

    How do you tell when legislation is a good idea?
    Conservatives oppose it on the flimsiest of grounds

    In his remarks, Burgess cast the conservation of the old-fashioned 100 watt lightbulb as a burning issue of personal freedom.

  17. chris73 17
    16 July 2011 at 11:38 pm

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/5294798/Labour-site-victim-of-high-speed-morons

    Seriously Labour stop using the internet untill you find someone who knows what they’re doing