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Open mike 17/08/2019

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, August 17th, 2019 - 167 comments
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167 comments on “Open mike 17/08/2019”

  1. Robert Guyton 1

    Our local high school is having a "tremendous" planting day today, turning what was recently a pine forest plantation beside the playing fields, into a mixed forest/orchard/learning space. I'm providing heritage apple trees from the local area as well as guidance for planting out the learning-space with natives. Every little bit helps!

    • WeTheBleeple 1.1

      That sounds wonderful. I'd be right in my element there combining education and ecology…

    • ianmac 1.2

      What a great idea Robert, and great that it is turned into action.

    • weka 1.3

      What an exciting project. Do you do anything special about planting in that ex-pine area, or just as normal?

    • francesca 1.4

      What a great project Robert!

      I hope it has longevity 

      It'd be really good to have some of the students observing and recording changes and evolution of the area.That project could be inherited by a particular class each year so that a long term study could eventuate. Turn the kids on  to be observant, how to identify and research  species that volunteer, how to do  surveys/gridding , photograph and record yearly.

      Could be quite a turning point for some kids 

    • +100  I only wish there was a similar initiative around various spots in Wellingon.

      At one time many years back, the Council nursery would provide various natives, and even fruit trees (maybe they still do).

      Unfortunately the support has become a bit half-hearted lately so that when plants get damaged by things such as careless weed spraying, or dumping of rubbish, or even overflowing of sewers, nothing ever gets done. 

      I contrast that with initiatives such as yours @Robert and places around Paekakariki where there are little food basket plantations that are accessible to anyone and everyone.

      • greywarshark 1.5.1

        Paekakariki I love you.   You deserve a song for doing good things and showing other places the way to be.

      • CC 1.5.2

        Similar initiatives around Wellington? You perhaps need to get out and about a bit more OWT. There are numerous re-vegetation oriented groups and individuals planting and maintaining numerous sites around Wellington. Yes, the Council still has a nursery – in fact a large very productive unit that supplies community groups and even lone-wolf types with MoU's with up to 500 endemic seedlings annually.  

        • OnceWasTim 1.5.2.1

          Hark at "You perhaps need to get out and about a bit more OWT."

          Perhaps I would if there was still a decent bus service and I was still able to walk as far as I once was.

          Around where I live, the Olive trees no longer get harvested, any initiatives (such being a 'friend' of the fruit trees planted by Council) are rendered useless by lack of support by Council – such as actually enforcing penalties for leaking sewers or dumping of toxic rubbish, or even over-enthusiastic weed spraying that kills some of the trees that dedicated people in the neighbourhood have planted.   And in some places, anything is just as likely to be surreptitiously poisoned by gentrifiers worried about their view being interrupted.

          But yes, I'm aware that a lot of people are making the effort – it's just a shame priorities aren't what they once were.

          These days, the only thing I seem to be able to grow for harvest successfully is head hair

          • CC 1.5.2.1.1

            So OWT, you live in Mt Vic eh? Why were olives planted there in the first place? Not a wise choice since even if harvested, the fruit would be un-usable. As for the other ills you refer to, are they ever reported? It seems that if people bother to report water or sewer leaks or the dumping of toxic waste, those matters are attended to very quickly. Unfortunately, we seem to live in a society where people seem think such problems will magically be resolved by some ethereal entity who is expected to be aware when there are problems. On the up-side, the re-vegetation of Mt Victoria is steadily progressing on the back of voluntary labour and Council support. Much credit also needs to be given to the trappers whose efforts are providing a safer environment for native birds of varying species that were not there in the not very distant past.

            • OnceWasTim 1.5.2.1.1.1

              Christ – you must work for WCC.

              I could give you a list of reference numbers related to people reporting things. And the problem isn't with the mere peons operating at the 'coal face' – such as the living waged parking wardens, or what's left of a parks and reserve department, or those long suffering staff in service centres. Like central gummint, it's with the masters of the Universe  that 'supervise' them.

  2. Dennis Frank 3

    Winston interprets the Nats:  "I thought the previous National Party was the worst National Party I’d ever seen. For a fact they’d lost the mantra and the ideology and common approach of people like Holyoake and others in the past to now being a bunch of cloned neoliberals.”   https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/17-08-2019/twos-company-threes-a-crowd-labour-nz-first-and-the-greens-on-election-2020/https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/17-08-2019/twos-company-threes-a-crowd-labour-nz-first-and-the-greens-on-election-2020/

    So looks like the jockeying for position is under way, but don't discount the collegial feeling evident in the various quotes.  If they can retain that while defining their positions it will keep the coalition govt on a constructive track which will deliver electoral benefits for all three.  Voters like to see consensus politics actually working.

    "Robertson said the coalition and confidence and supply agreements were the starting point for all negotiations and there was a general acceptance any differences should be worked out before policy gets to Cabinet committees."

    We've seen a few hiccups when that theory hasn't been seen to work in practice.  I suspect they were caused by underlings failing to absorb instructions sufficiently.  I hope those doing the implementation of the strategy have learnt from their mistakes.  The more professional the process looks from here on, the more likely centrists will decide it is a reliable prospect for further delivery, and the more likely centrists as a group will select a center-left mix next election.

    • gsays 3.1

      One thing I would acknowledge in the Nats is that they wouldn't, at the last minute, pull the rug out from under their coalition partner and senior minister. A la abortion reform.

  3. greywarshark 4

    Edit
    I suppose this has already been noted – just saw.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/396841/hannah-tamaki-s-coalition-new-zealand-political-party-registration-rejected

    Sort of interesting – a thumbnail picture in a list of news items in Featured Stories (down from The Briefing which is under the latest items) is about the three parties and how they will relate their differences for the next election.
    The pics are James Shaw, Grant Robertson, Winston Peters.

    This is the item showing the circular table with Cabinet around it and PM Ardern in front.
    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/396807/two-s-company-three-s-a-crowd-governing-parties-tell-it-like-it-is

    • Dennis Frank 4.1

      I saw that on One News last night, was glad the dumb name got rejected by the EC.  Seemed like an attempt to deceive voters impressed by the coalition govt making consensus politics work.  They ought to call their re-run the Holy Rock & Rollers because catchy names appeal to folks.

    • Dennis Frank 5.1

      Boris must be feeling like a skier teetering at the top of an iced-over snow-slope.  Skids really are under him now.  Just a matter of time…

    • greywarshark 5.2

      Jeremy Corbyn has tried to assess the best thing to do out of a dismal selection of possibilities regarding the Brexit disaster.    He has written to MPs who might back his latest idea for finding a pathway to a reasoned outcome.  (This from Yorick above.)

      https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7361295/A-Jeremy-Corbyn-government-damaging-No-Deal-Brexit-says-TORY-backbencher.html

      In the letter, Mr Corbyn said: 'Following a successful vote of no confidence in the government, I would then, as Leader of the Opposition, seek the confidence of the House for a strictly time-limited temporary government with the aim of calling a general election, and securing the necessary extension of Article 50 to do so.

      'In that general election, Labour will be committed to a public vote on the terms of leaving the European Union, including an option to Remain.'

      Mr Corbyn said he hoped his plan would 'halt the serious threat of No Deal, end the uncertainty and disarray, and allow the public to decide the best way ahead for our country'. …

      The magic number for a majority in the House of Commons is 320 because while there are 650 MPs, the speaker and his three deputies do not vote while Sinn Fein's seven MPs do not take their seats. 

      Labour currently has 247 MPs – a long way short of the 320 needed – and there is no guarantee all of Mr Corbyn's backbenchers would support him becoming PM given some of them oppose his leadership while others are adamant Brexit must not be delayed again.

      But for many on the Tory side its all a game and they have to win whatever their Party has decided;  their creditworthiness depends on it.   And the other side are awful Communists.

      Tory MP Philip Davies said: 'Jeremy Corbyn is desperate. He stood on a manifesto promise at the last general election to leave the EU and honour the result of the referendum. 

      'He will do anything to grab power to inflict his Marxist extremism on the country – even ditching his promises to voters. 

      'Nobody would ever forgive any Conservative MP who acted to bring about a Marxist prime minister. This is a Marxist attempted coup.'

      Have a look at how Farage harangues his audience, virtually beating them over the head with his message.

       

      High-speed train will be used to ferry medicine to the UK from France in £25million No Deal Brexit plan

      Medicines after Brexit have to be paid for by EU residents in Britain, immediately.   Seems they are doing an Oz-Kiwi approach.    Interesting how global we get business-wise, while people-wise we are becoming narrow, national even provincial.

      The UK Health Minister is Chris Skidmore – an unfortunate name for a politician under pressure.

      [The train] will deliver small parcels of medicine every day, and larger quantities of medicine every two to four days….

      he Government is spending £434million to ensure the continuity of vital medicines and medical products, including through stockpiling.

      Any interested providers have until August 21 to submit proposals – and the successful bidder will be announced in September. 

      The Government has been urging pharmaceutical companies to stockpile six weeks' worth of essential medicines in the event of a No Deal Brexit.

  4. veutoviper 6

    So who has been playing with the The Standard's Time Machine over the last 12 hours or so?

    1.  Weka's post on the Greens and all comments have disappeared.
    2. A Mike Smith post dated 8 August has appeared titled "Nuclear Chickens coming home to roost?" with 18 comments all dated 8 August.*
    3. * Now 19 comments with Anne’s one dated 17 August.

    • I had nothing to do with it – I promise. I've been tucked up in my little blue box clutching my crystals and taking grewarshark's advice to give my brain a rest

      • veutoviper 6.1.1

        LOLOL – not me either.  If it was, I would not have stopped at the two actions above!

    • Anne 6.2

      So, I'm the only one who is up to date then. 😉

    • Dennis Frank 6.3

      Yes I noticed both anomalies earlier this morning & thought wtf??  Hope the techie fix eventuates in due course…

      • Dukeofurl 6.3.1

        Something similar happened a week and half back when a whole  story and comments disappeared for a while . LPrent  seemed to have fixed it and gave a technical explanation at the time

        • Incognito 6.3.1.1

          IIRC, he had been playing with a new RSS feed but it was bad (paraphrasing Lynn here) and something got caught in that.

      • veutoviper 6.3.2

        I found it amusing as some of us had a discussion yesterday on Open Mike starting with OWT's comment at 10 re the fact that Eco Maori's comments appear on OM a day or two old. In my comment (below) I referred to lprent’s "Magical Time Machine" and low and behold – a couple of hours later what happens?  Weka's post disappears and Mike Smith's 8 August turns up …

        /open-mike-16-08-2019/#comment-1646994

        ————

        On a different but slightly related topic, yesterday in a comment under Weka's post you used a word, a prejorative (IIRC in para 3 of your comment there) that many of us find very offensive.  I noted that the fact that many find that term offensive was not pointed out  to you but as I have very strong feelings about the term you used, please go and look at the conversation on its use that took place here just a few days earlier on Open Mike 13 August.  Weka's comment  there says very clear why many people consider that term offensive; as do quite a number of other comments there.

        /open-mike-13-08-2019/#comment-1646122

    • Incognito 6.4

      We are trying out the anti-aging effects of the TS Time Machine in support of Extinction Rebellion but so far we’ve only managed to age a couple of years and pulled out of few grey hairs 🙁

      Did you enjoy the show so far? If so, watch this space …

  5. (i have come up with a possible resolution of the carnivore vs. vegan imbroglio with lprent..

    we could boil it down to a foot-race – i see no other way out..)

    (this from fertile-land post..)

    hey..i'm an old guy…wanna race up mt eden..?

    it could be billed as the unreconstructed-carnivore – vs. the vegan-who-annoys..

    if you win i'll eat (fake)-meat – (a prospect i dread..)

    if i win – you go vegan for a month..(you may find you like it..)

    my 8 yr old (vegan)-dog who is super-fit/toned could also race..we could match him up against whatever carnivore-hound you like..(i should warn you he gets to run on a long west coast beach each/every day..he is up for it..)

    as am i..)

    p.s. bets could be lodged – i'd plunge on me..eh..?..)

    [There are plenty of annoying commenters here and you are just one of many, I’m afraid. However, I have a better resolution: tone down the dogmatism in and of your comments and engage in genuine debate. We all have different opinions and it is not about winning the argument as such; agree to disagree. Take it or leave it Phil; no bets required – Incognito]

    • The Al1en 7.1

      And in repeating the same nonsense twice in an hour and a half, you've clearly lost more than a battle of wits.

      • phillip ure 7.1.1

        a 'battle of wits'..?..

        nah..!..not really…i'm just arguing the case for te animals..

        and i see very little 'wit' incoming from the animal-eating p.o.v…

        and interesting how the carnivore-camp doesn't factor animal-suffering into their self-justifying gyrations..

        whereas that is the main reason i am there/arguing that case..

        the enviro-foorprint etc. is just the reason behind/propping up that essentially emotional justification..

        • The Al1en 7.1.1.1

          This site was set up for robust debate, not to provide a broadcasting soapbox for simpleton fools who can’t handle criticism of their ideas.

          As far as I’m concerned your track record of appalling commenting behaviour adds nothing to this site and the discussions on it except to waste my resources. 

          From the horses mouth, so to speak, and not the dead one you keep flogging.

          Same old message, same old intransigence, same old end result. If you really love animals so much, how about teaching that one trick pony you rode back in on a new routine.

        • greywarshark 7.1.1.2

          Edit
          Perhaps philip ure you could come to an agreement with the mods and only put up one comment on veganism per day of diminished length (not spread out in double spacing – you may have to submit then go back and edit down).   You make a fair point, but anybody gets sick of having points stuck into them. And that comment should be about what others are doing about veganism, ideas for recipes etc so it isn’t always the same. Your dog does well on it. You have mentioned that. What new stuff can you tell us, Once a day is manageable, if the mod agrees of course.

          So just a suggestion, if you can bring it off, you can then take on an international tour teaching the world not only about veganism, but how different parties with differing views can facilitate reasonable opinions and discussions about them to take place.   That could help prevent wars. So you would be performing one small step for you, but one giant one for humankind.

          • Incognito 7.1.1.2.1

            Speaking for myself, it is not the topic that is the issue. I personally don’t like doing ‘deals’ like that; free speech is not unconditional.

          • phillip ure 7.1.1.2.2

            @ greywarshark..

            if you want vegan recipies – you can google more of them than you can poke a stick at..

            and should we apply yr insistance of something 'new' at all times to all the other topics discussed here..?

            that would close everyrthing down..would it not..?

            i think the reason you and most others get agitated is because you are being challenged/questioned on something you usually aren't..

            and this makes you uncomfortable – especially with regards to yr self-regard..in that most here think of themselves as 'the good guys/gals' – on the right side of most debates..

            whereas on this one – you clearly aren't..

            and that challenge is hard to face..eh..?

            vegans don't comment/push the point here – 'cos of the guaranteed vitriol/disdain they will receive…

        • Wensleydale 7.1.1.3

          I like bacon. Just saying.

          • phillip ure 7.1.1.3.1

            tried fake-bacon yet..?

            do you know much about nz/bowel-cancer-rates/causes..?

            just saying..

            • Psycho Milt 7.1.1.3.1.1

              do you know much about nz/bowel-cancer-rates/causes..?

              Don't know about Wensleydale, but in generic terms anyone who knows much about it would find your use of it as vegan propaganda comical.

              • are you really ignorant of the facts that red meat/bacon causes bowel cancer..?

                and that nz has really high rates of red meat/bacon consumption..

                and that nz has world-beating rates of bowel cancer..?

                do you really not know all that..?

                • I know that compounding multiple correlation = causation errors to make a propaganda claim has little to do with "facts," yes.

                  • go ask yr g.p…

                    this is hardly something radical i am saying..

                    sheesh..!..are you kidding..?..is this all 'news' to you..?

                    • Andre's explained the problems with your propaganda claim below.  Bottom line: if we take the studies claiming an association between eating red meat and bowel cancer to be accurate (a very big if), and if I were to develop bowel cancer at some point in the future, the likelihood of that cancer being a result of simple bad luck would still hugely outweigh the likelihood of it being the result of eating red meat. 

                      I read an article about bowel cancer in The Listener a few years back that featured several vegetarians/vegans stunned that they'd developed bowel cancer despite their lifelong (in some cases) avoidance of meat.  It shouldn't have come as a surprise to them because bowel cancer isn't a straightforward matter of what you eat, but like you they'd presumably read all the propaganda and assumed bowel cancer was something caused by eating meat. Falling for propaganda is human, but when people warn you it's happening you should at least consider whether they may be right.

                    • once again – don't believe me – ask yr gp…

                      (and maybe try to read a bit more that 'a listener article a couple of yrs ago'..eh..?..)

                      and who the fuck still reads the listener..?

                    • once again – don't believe me – ask yr gp…

                      1. Please look up the logical fallacy "argument from authority." 

                      2. My GP will have the same info Andre's outlined below and which I was already familiar with, so there wouldn't be much point.

                      3. I've been getting wrong, harmful, terrible advice on what to eat from GPs and dietitians ever since I was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes over 30 years ago, so no I won't be asking my GP what I should eat – experience taught me the hard way not to do that.

                      (and maybe try to read a bit more that 'a listener article a couple of yrs ago'..eh..?..)

                      Sigh. I mentioned that article because it told me that vegans are swallowing a propaganda lie about bowel cancer, not because it's the sum total of my reading on the subject.

                      and who the fuck still reads the listener..?

                      Well, me, obviously.  Dismissing print media as no longer fashionable is a foolish approach to information-gathering.

                • Andre

                  Gosh, do tell, phillip.

                  What are the annual and lifetime risks of developing bowel cancer for you, a vegan, or I, a relatively low red-meat consumer, or Psycho Milt, apparently a very high red meat consumer?

                  I want to get a feel for whether the risk of getting bowel cancer is high enough relative to the other risks to my health and safety that I should worry about it, and whether the excess risk from eating red meat is high enough to overcome the pleasures and other benefits from doing so.

                  • don't believe me – go ask yr g.p…

                    fill in yr knowledge-gaps..eh..?

                    and once again – the mistreatment of animals just doesn't factor in yr thinking at all…does it..?

                    yr 'pleasures' from eating it over-rule all else..eh..?

                    so..you are who plant-based meats have been designed for..

                    you will get all the 'pleasure' – but without the cruelty to the animals/fucking the planet etc..

                    so..if those 'meats' do look/taste/texture the same as animal-flesh..and so satisfy yr 'needs'..?

                    will you still insist that an animal must be hurt..?

                    for your olfactory(and other) 'pleasures'..?

                    • Andre

                      My goodness, what an unhelpful and unpersuasive response.

                      For anyone else interested,  bowel cancer is primarily an old age disease. Your risk of getting it by age 55 is about 0.5%, if you make it to 80 your risk has gone up to about 7%.

                      https://www.health.govt.nz/system/files/documents/publications/bowel-cancer-2012-update_consumer.pdf

                      Taken at face value, correlational studies suggest eating the guideline amount of red meat (500g/week) increases those risks around 20%. Presumably, if those conclusions are accurate and not simply the result of some other influence or even just random statistical noise, heavier consumption will further increase that very small increased risk.

                      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/112084350/red-meat-eaters-have-higher-risk-of-developing-bowel-cancer-study-finds

                      But to me it's a very small increase of a negligibly small risk, so it's not going to influence my lifestyle choices. Particularly given my ongoing participation in gravity sports that I'm really too old for that are a much greater risk to my health and safety.

                      As for the various kinds of plant-based and vat-grown substitutes for animal flesh (and other animal products), I take a keen interest in them and will enthusiastically substitute them into my diet when they get to a palatable combination of taste and texture at an acceptable price.

                      I've regularly posted about progress in those efforts here. Which you would know if you had any interest in what other people here have to say, instead of just coming here to proselytize for your hobbyhorses.

                    • having not been here for some time – i clearly missed yr 'updates'..

                      and i ask again – the cruelties done to the animals you eat just does not factor in yr thinking..at all..?

                    • Andre

                      The problems associated with animal agriculture do indeed factor into my diet choices. But not enough to drive me to go to the hassle and make the sacrifices necessary to get all my nutrient needs from a vegan diet with the choices currently available.

                      So reading holier-than-thou hectoring about it simply induces a fuck-you reaction. Particularly when obsessives try to use a much bigger and only slightly related problem (such as climate change) as a stalking horse.

                    • only 'a slight connection' to climate-change..?

                      really..?

                      since when was 70% of all farmed land on planet used to fatten animals or to grow the food to feed those animals..'a slight connection'..?

                    • Andre

                      The problem of how much of the planet is devoted to agriculture and subsequent emissions is more closely related to the sheer numbers of humans. If we all went vegan, the climate change impact would still be relatively small compared to energy-related climate change. A meat-heavy diet results in CO2eq emissions of 3 or 4 tonnes pa. A vegan diet is around 1.5 to 2 tonnes pa.

                      Whereas the much larger part of the climate change problem is very much related to lifestyle choices of the wealthy (most westerners). Profligate energy use is the biggest and most easily modifiable, along with where that energy comes from. For NZers, shutting down all fossil-fueled electricity generation in NZ and replacing it with wind would have about the same climate impact as all of us going vegan. (see p14 of this report)

                      Pets are also a substantial part of that impact. When I called time on my best feline buddy ever a year ago, choosing not to get another cat reduced my food-related emissions more than my going vegan would.

                      Bottom line is, anyone wealthy enough to be spending time arguing with strangers on the internet almost certainly has a lot of excess emissions they could eliminate from their lifestyles. We all have indulgences that we value. Trying to lay guilt trips on people with fact-and-number free assertions about specific minor aspects of their lifestyles is likely to backfire.

                    • weka

                      so the risk for a medium red meater eater at 80 is 8.4%? That's not compared to vegans though right?

                      I'm wondering if the people who eat less meat, eat more veg and d other healthful things, and this is where the benefit is. Then there's the kind of meat that's being eaten. And eating patterns (what's the 500gm of meat being eaten with).

                      Also betting that in 20 years time when we have larger numbers of people who've been long term vegan we'll start seeing various issues popping up from those diets too (especially in people who were vegan from childhood).

                    • Andre

                      @weka I reckon trying to get that level of precision from the kinds of studies and data used is a fool's errand. Certainly neither piece I linked has enough info about the methods to make that kind of detailed inference.

                      Nevertheless, if I had to speculate, I'd guess that the 7% (which is actually my rounding of 1/15 or 6.66666%) is an average across all those that end up getting bowel cancer.

                      Given the average NZ meat consumption is around 2kg/week (from memory from a thread a few days ago), 4x the recommended guideline, that implies vegans/vegetarians/low meat eaters are actually few and far between. So that 20% difference in risk would translate to probably more like the risk of an 80yr old vegan/vegetarian/very low meat-eater having got bowel cancer being around 5 to 6% ish.

                      If that 20% difference is a real signal and not just statistical noise, then I'd still need a lot of convincing it was just red meat, rather than a whole combination of diet and lifestyle factors that tend to go together with high red meat consumption.

                    • New view

                      Phillip So it’s all about the animals treatment  what’s wrong with eating eggs. Free range hens. You’d be giving them a reason to be here. In other words why not vegetarian. 

                  • @ newview..

                    'why not vegetarian?'

                    good question..

                    because by eating eggs (and we all know that free-range ideal u describe is few and far between – most hens live in horrendous conditions/suffering..you know that..

                    so by eating them you support/enable that suffering..

                    which brings us to cheese.etc…

                    the reason there (aside from the well-documented fucking of the environment) is that by eating dairy/cheese you are supporting/enabling the suffering those animals endure..

                    cows have a natural life-span of about 23 yrs..the cows that give yr milk are flogged out by age five – when they are sent to the slaughterhouse..

                    and the reason they are flogged out is because they are serially impregnated..so as to keep producing milk..

                    which brings us to the calves – and this brings us smack up against the insulation most have to what is done in their name..

                    'cos my heart has been broken/blood run cold – by the sounds of the mother cows keening for the young who are taken from them – so milk drinkers can get what they want..

                    not to mention the calves – crying en-mass for their mothers..

                    and of course they are then sent to the slaughterhouse..

                    listen to/experience that – and i defy you not to be moved..

                    (i hope all that clarifies the 'why not vegetarian?'-question for you..

                    anything else – just ask..

                    • The Al1en

                      anything else – just ask..

                      Yeah, how about actually answering the question you were asked about free range eggs without any broken, bleeding heart cow nonsense.

                      A certified free range grown egg is good or bad?

                      And while you're here, what about the organic beefy happily grazing in a paddock until the home kill man comes, with no horrendous conditions, totally free of suffering?

                      Or the pest species like rabbits self shot, skinned, gutted and eaten. 

                    • New view

                      The AlIen is right. Just answer my question. And the 23 year old cow story is bull shit, some number you’ve made up.  The cows raped to death on the farm do the same off the farm. They mate every year when there’s a bull around and in the wild there is. And by the way the wild isn’t that great. The wild works well when the weather is moderate and feed plentiful. Doesn’t always happen. I didn’t want your version of how animals feel. I believe in general farm animals here are treated better than some humans in third world countries and where there’s conflict. I just wanted to know why you wouldn’t eat an egg from a happy chook running around the house. 

            • Incognito 7.1.1.3.1.2

              The causes of all cancers are multi-factorial and age and genetics are always involved. But they are by no means the only factors and neither is meat consumption the only dietary risk factor associated with the incidence of bowel cancer.

              For those who are genuinely interested in this: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/112807979/more-young-kiwis-getting-bowel-cancer-is-tip-of-iceberg-says-expert

              This might be the Listener article that Psycho Milt (above) referred to: https://www.noted.co.nz/health/health-health/why-bowel-cancer-is-a-national-emergency

              • 'neither is meat consumption the only dietary risk factor associated with the incidence of bowel cancer.'

                what are the other 'dietary risk factors'..?

                what else do i need to give up..

                • Sacha

                  Alcohol would be the most obvious. Do some reading.

                  • i don't use alcohol – pot is my relaxant of choice..

                    anything else..?

                    • Sacha

                      Don't be so lazy. If you want to have strong opinions, do the reading. Otherwise, show some respect and moderate your claims accordingly.

                    • Incognito

                      This isn’t about you, Phil. Otherwise we’d call TS Phil’s blog for Phil’s hobby-horse and pet-project and only for Phil to read and comment 😉 A bit of a mouthful but you get the gist, don’t you?

                    • @ incognito..

                      'this isn't about you'..

                      um..!..i was answering a question asked – as have most of my comments in this thread been..

                      and this isn't some word-game/hobby-horse for me..

                      i feel very deeply/strongly about these issues..

                      and the industrial-scale cruelties done to animals – each/every day..

                      ..just so people can eat them..

                    • Incognito []

                      No, you were responding to Sacha who hadn’t asked a question at all. It is you who’s asking all the questions.

                      Yes, we know you “feel very deeply/strongly about these issues” but you seem to lose sight of other factors involved. And you don’t like to be challenged. In fact, you become quite belligerent if not dogmatic.

                      Your argument about meat consumption and bowel cancer was incomplete if not misleading. By removing one risk factor, one does not remove all other risk, obviously. Vegans do get bowel cancer. Non-smokers do get lung cancer as this sad story today shows: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/114742604/auckland-nonsmokers-little-cough-turned-out-to-be-terminal-lung-cancer

                      Not all meat eaters get bowel cancer, not all smokers get lung cancer, and not all drivers under the influence of alcohol causes crashes. No shit, Sherlock!

                    • @ sacha – i have been reading about/onto this issue for 40 yrs..

                      so i am puzzled by yr exhortation that i should 'go do some reading'..

                      i don't know everything on it – ut i feel i have a reasonble grasp..

                      so if you have any real questions – instead of just mindless hectoring – i wd be happy to recall what i have read – for you..

                      i can't do more than that..

                    • Sacha

                      Phil, you seem to "feel" quite a lot but it's a poor basis for a conversation about anything that involves other forms of evidence than our emotions.

                      After serving for several years on one of the advisory groups for the NZ bowel cancer screening pilot programme, I do not have any questions for you. Why would I?

                    • oh wow..!..seeing as you know all about it sacha..

                      how about sharing with the rest of us – what yr 'advisory-board' – actually advised..?

                      as to what are the causes of bowel cancer..

                      don't hold back – spread the knowledge..

                      [Phil, you seem to be deliberately misreading comments. Why is that, Phil? Can’t you handle an evidence-based opinion that does not squarely align with your “belief”?

                      Sacha never said or claimed to “know all about it”.

                      Sacha referred to a screening pilot programme. You do know what screening means, don’t you, Phil? It means the focus is not necessarily on (the) underlying causes or risk factors but on (early) detection and diagnosis.

                      Why do you ask for Sacha to “spread the knowledge”? You have done 40 years of reading, as you said yourself, but you don’t seem to read links in this discussion thread nor the Listener.

                      IMO you are not debating in good faith and you don’t want to change your habits here. Both you and I know how this is going to end but it is your choice, Phil. TS has provided you with a free platform and bandwidth but you don’t seem to be showing any respect or gratitude for this – Incognito]

                    • Incognito []

                      See my Moderation note @ 2:40 PM.

                • The Al1en

                  what else do i need to give up..

                  go ask yr g.p…
                  sheesh..!..are you kidding..?..is this all ‘news’ to you..?

                  fill in yr knowledge-gaps..eh..?

                • Incognito

                  You didn’t read the links, did you? Why am I not surprised; I even italicised the key words 😉

                  You wrongly conclude that it is all about “giving up” or “cutting out”. Rather, it is about balance and moderation – homeostasis or equilibrium for well-being, if you like. For example, decrease the ‘bad’ factors and increase the ‘good’ ones.

                  To stay in the context of bowel cancer and a healthy gut microflora (AKA gut microbiome), you may have heard of probiotics, the so-called good guys, in contrast to the bad ones that are pathogenic and disease-causing (incl. cancer). More importantly, it is about balance. Heard of faecal transplants? They are the new rage, it seems, the new frontier.

                  You may also be familiar with this ancient saying, which is as truthful as they come:

                  The dose makes the poison

                  Never a truer word spoken about substance abuse and drug addiction (incl. alcohol). Same principle applies to diet (and lifestyle).

                  Do you comment here in good faith? Are you interested in genuine debate?

                  • weka

                    I'll hypothesis that good gut health for many people also needs some degree of animal fat. This one reason why some ex-vegans get an improvement in digestion when they stop being vegan. Probably related to fat soluble vitamins too.

                    We’ve been eating animal products for a very long time, long enough for there to be biology to have evolved from the advantage of animal foods.

                    • We’ve been eating animal products for a very long time, long enough for there to be biology to have evolved from the advantage of animal foods.

                      Exactly. We evolved as omnivores, which is why vegans have to go to some effort to ensure their diet doesn't leave them with various nutritional deficiencies, and why it's a really bad idea to try and wean a toddler onto a vegan diet.  

                    • heh..!…'ex-vegans'..know a lot of them do ya..?

                      'ex-vegans get an improvement in digestion when they stop being vegan'..

                      heh..!..got anything to back this up..?..or did the many 'ex-vegans'  you know tell you this..?

                      and this 'ex-vegan' sub-subculture: are there a lot of them..?

                      do they have a website..?

                      and are 'hypothesise' and 'probably' other words for/covering an  orifice-pluck..?

                      'ex-vegan' (and their doings) joins 'insane religious tracts' and 'disease' as ongoing chuckles from this thread..

                    • Andre

                      In 'murica there's apparently about 5 ex-vegan/vegetarians for every actual current vegan/vegetarian.

                      https://www.sciencealert.com/new-study-reveals-84-of-vegetarians-return-to-meat

                      Doesn't say whether they've formed a distinct sub-culture.

                    • @ p.m..

                      re 'nutritional deficiences'..

                      i don't use/take supplements..a good diet'll see ya right..

                      and i am calling complete and utter bullshit on yr dangers to children from going vegan..

                      i know more than enough examples of healthy vegan children to know you are talking a total crock..

                      (you really are one for that 'burn-them-at-the-stake! irrational bullshit..aren't you..?

                      hysterical claims made – without a feckin' shred of evidence to back them up..?..yr clearly talking to p.m..)

                    • Andre

                      complete and utter bullshit on yr dangers to children

                      Ah-huh…

                      We don’t yet have enough evidence to say how current vegan practices affect babies’ health at a population level. But it’s not hard to find examples of vegan diets being blamed for a variety of child health problems. Research on children in the Netherlands being fed a particularly strict plant-based macrobiotic diet showed they suffered nutrient deficiencies and retarded growth, mainly between the ages of six and 18 months. There have even been incidents of vegan parents accused of child abuse related to their children’s poor growth.

                      https://theconversation.com/why-vegan-diets-for-babies-come-with-significant-risks-108466

                      Just one of the early ones of the 842,000 hits from searching for vegan infant nutritional deficiencies.

                    • weka

                      'ex-vegans'..know a lot of them do ya..?

                      I do. Ex-vegans and ex-vegetarians, more than I can easily count.

                      'ex-vegans get an improvement in digestion when they stop being vegan'

                      heh..!..got anything to back this up..?..or did the many 'ex-vegans'  you know tell you this..?

                      Yes, the ex-veg people talk about their experiences. It's common enough that patterns appear. I really hope medical science gets on the ball with this in the coming decade.

                      Best place to see people talking about health issues from being vegan is youtube. Plenty of high profile, committed vegans, who had their health collapse and then went through a pretty harsh process often over years of giving up their ideology so they could be well.

                      and this 'ex-vegan' sub-subculture: are there a lot of them..?

                      I think there are *increasing numbers, and as I said above, I know enough to not be easily able to estimate how many.

                      do they have a website..?

                      This site has been around for a long time http://www.beyondveg.com/ I'm sure there are others.

                      and are 'hypothesise' and 'probably' other words for/covering an  orifice-pluck..?

                      Only if you are either stupid or disingenuous. If not, then both those words were used with care to convey meaning.

                      'ex-vegan' (and their doings) joins 'insane religious tracts' and 'disease' as ongoing chuckles from this thread..

                      I don't know what that means, but will assume that you think there is no such thing as an ex-vegan. I'm not surprised, because vegans wanting to eat meat are considered traitors and they won’t be talking to *you. The other emerging social dynamic is the immense social pressure that young people are under to remain vegan when their health is deteriorating. This is dangerous.

                      It comes from vegan fundamentalism that would rather see young women with multiple health problems than admit that some people's health is better for eating even small amounts of animal products. Some people are ok on a vegan diet, some aren't. It's a problem that we now have social groups acting like cults with regards to good choices.

                    • weka

                      That ex-veg link is interesting. We can also factor in the people that eat animal products occasionally but still call themselves vegetarian or vegan. Which is not a problem except for the fundamentalists who insist it is wrong.

                  • so you are presenting the incrementalist point of view – 'do everything – but in moderation'..

                    i often rail at laour/this gummint – for being so incrementalist – and doing nowhere near enough..

                    those arguments wd spill over in replies to yr incrementalist arguments on this..

                    and yes..i have heard about 'probiotics'…

                    and i remember reading recently (sorry – don't have link – but the results from a big/credible study) that probiotics are a marketing pile-of-bullshit..

                    that people have been suckered into this thing as some sort of salve to the bacon-eating etc. aspects of their life..

                    i understand the latest thinking on them is that they are a crock..

                    and solve/salve nothing..

                    i have heard of faecal transplants..don't need one myself – but i understand they do work for people who have monstered their own digestive systems..

                    'the dose makes the poison'..

                    um..!..no..like most slogans – it is simplistic – and often used as an excuse by people who can't face giving up anything..

                    in my case – one shot of heroin wd have me right back there..

                    and for alcoholics the same stricture applies…so..

                    what would make you question if i comment here 'in good faith'..(whatever definiton you apply to that..)

                    and again with the 'genuine debate'..

                    i asked previously..cd you plse define what you see this as..?

                    and once again – i ask what would make you even ask that 'genuine debate' question..of me..and yet of no others..

                    and if you define debate as the battle of ideas – that is certainly what i am doing – in my arguments for the animals..eh..?

                • @ incognito..

                  (sigh..!..yes..strictly speaking it wasn't a question – it was an admonition – but one that needed a reply..

                  but my point stands that most of my comments here have been in response to what you (and others) have said to me..'n'est ce pas..?'

                  u said: 'And you don’t like to be challenged. In fact, you become quite belligerent'

                  given i have been called 'insane' – 'a nutter' – 'diseased'(!)..a 'reader of insane religious tracts' etc etc.(that 'religious tracts.' one is still causing a chuckle..greys' 'disease'  one is also a little ripper..

                  where have i come anywhere within coo-ee of nasty shit like that..?

                  in fact..seeing as you are accusing..how about some examples of my 'belligerence'..?

                  i think you are mistaking 'belligerence' for having yr beliefs challenged..

                  they are different..eh..?

                  and yes – there are generally exceptions to most rules…but those exceptions do not in any way automatically overturn the/any thesis presented..do they..

                  (and as a footnote – cd i say that i approach all this in good spirits..i am not sitting here raging against those giving me their best shots..

                  i have been for a walk along the cliffs with my dogs – they are now sunning their bellys..i had a wicked breakfast/lunch…and i just smoked a stonking joint of good outdoors..

                  and really..i feel the hippies/60's gave us a lot – they were right about so many things..

                  and one takeaway that i have tried to live by is a cartoon..

                  it is a furry freak bros one..

                  where they face the readers – and say something to live by..

                  'remember kiddies..!.when yr smashing the state – always keep a smile on yr lips – and a song in yr heart'..

                  that is what i am doing here – in a small way – helping smash the (animal-slavery) state..

                  but not forgetting to chuckle on the way..eh..?

    • Incognito 7.2

      See my Moderation note @ 10:54 AM.

    • a special award for subjectivity there..eh..?

      iprent calls me 'insane'..a nutter….etc etc….

      where the fuck have i ever said anything anywhere near that..?

      'tone down the dogmatism'..what the fuck does that even mean..?

      should i say stop eating animals 'sometimes'..?

      and engage in 'genuine debate'..w.t.f. does that even mean…?

      the reactionary-authoritarianiam here is such you could bottle it..

      why are you all so frightened/angered by having what you think is yr god given fucken right to mistreat/eat animals challenged..?

      [You seem confused, Phil. I’m not Lprent but I do find you annoying. You pretend to not know what it is about so let me spell it out for you again: your behaviour here. If you don’t want to engage in genuine but robust debate then say so and go for a run on the beach or somewhere else …

      BTW, if I could bottle it, I’d sell it; there seems to be a willing market for it – Incognito]

      • Incognito 7.3.1

        See my Moderation note @ 11:19 AM.

        • phillip ure 7.3.1.1

          i am not confused – i am aware you are not iprent (i spoke of him in the 3rd person)

          i was indicating the feral abuse heaped on me..that's ok..eh..?…i can start doing that..can i..?…just engaging in personal abuse..?

          and cd you please define (more than a (repeated) amorphous slogan) exactly what you mean by 'genuine' 'robust' debate..?…(that which you urge me to engage in..)

          my debate is certainly 'genuine'….and you all seem to find it more than 'robust' enough..

          i do not engage in personal abuse of anyone..

          so what are you actually asking of me..?..you are correct..i do not know..

          fings are getting kinda kafkaesque here..eh..?

          • marty mars 7.3.1.1.1

            you know what the reaction will be and you still do it as you said upstream

            I'm not sure your goal is to turn people vegan 

            I don't think the victim role suits you and you are not a victim

            just get on with it eh ffs 

            • phillip ure 7.3.1.1.1.1

              well what do you think my 'goal' is..?

              i feel in no way a victim..

              and i should stop arguing for the animals – 'cos people don't like it – it disturbs them..?

              um..!..no..!..eh..?

              • marty mars

                I like what you write and have no issue with that 

                My point was that you aren't a victim

                as to your 'goal' – I don't really care – I live with meat eaters who I love – I haven't eaten flesh willingly for 39 years. wtf would I know. And yes as a prelude to any reply, I am not a vegan, just a vegetarian. I'm close but still addicted even though I know more than most the horrors of the products I consume.

                • chrs..

                  funny story..!..vegetarians often react as vehemently as flesh-eaters – to suggestions they cease and desist on the dairy..

                  aside from addiction to cheese (heh..!) i put part of that reaction down to what i was trying to point out to grey – that like many here they view themselves as the good guys/gals – and that being challenged/questioned does not sit well with them..

                  (and when i was vegetarian for all those years before i went vegan – i used to think vegans were 'a bit weird'/'taking it a bit too far'..

                  perspectives/certainties change..i have found..)

                  and i wd insist that i do not in any way feel i am ‘a victim’..

                  and in fact just the opposite – compared to other parts/times of my life – i am feeling very strong/happy in my bones..

                  and plan on going and standing with/fighting with the extinction rebellion crew..

                  when that really kicks off here..

                  i am ready…

    • I have to say @ Incognito, and in defense of Phil and magic scooters, and without trying to sound too much like a pompous git, it's not that unusual for people to switch addictions as part of recovery into something a little less self-destructive. I only wish one of my siblings had been able to do likewise he'd have been a force to be reckoned with.

      I'll get back to clutching me mystical crystals and dealing with me inner peace now but I'm sure the magic scooter will eventually prove its worth – maybe along with the Jubilation Choir on loop

      Oh…… EDIT: Convicted and Discharged Mr Ure.
      Stand down!

      • phillip ure 7.4.1

        (sorry about yr brother – i lost people i still think  of almost daily..and like yr brother giants in their own right..what could have been..etc..

        hello bernie – hello nick..)

        and you are correct – post-heroin many turn to alcoholism – i chose veganism (heh..!)

        no hangovers there…

        • OnceWasTim 7.4.1.1

          Btw  Phil, it's more than likely we've met many years ago – we certainly have one or two mutual acquaintances/friends, or at least at a 2 degrees of separation.

          Pleased to know you're still making it. Thankfully I realised very early on that if you hang around the barber shop, it's not long before you get your hair clipped

    • McFlock 7.5

      Why do you "dread" eating "(fake) meat"? You might end up liking it.

      Anyway, most carnivores would beat me in a foot race, because I enjoy exercise more than I like tofu – but not by all that much.

      • phillip ure 7.5.1

        it has been four decades since i are animal flesh ..

        and i have no desires for those tastes/textures..

        but i think they are a wonderful innovation for those who can't stop eating animals 'cos they like those tastes/textures..

        have some fake meat that tastes/textures like animal stuff..

        fill yer boots..!

      • weka 7.5.2

        "Why do you "dread" eating "(fake) meat"? You might end up liking it."

        Same reason I'd dread having to eat margarine instead of butter. Science just isn't *that clever yet.

        • phillip ure 7.5.2.1

          marg isn't the only choice..is it..?

          and i haven't used buttery spreads – in the main..

          avo/hummus etc render butter as irrelevant..

        • phillip ure 7.5.2.2

          @ weka..and how do you feel about 'fake' ice-cream..?

          the news for the dairy industry just keeps getting worse and worse..

          'What’s so revolutionary about Perfect Day is that they are the first company to bring lab-produced dairy to market. You read that right: this is dairy, molecularly identical to cow’s milk, it’s just made entirely without animals – think clean meat but for milk. Perfect Day is calling their product flora-based dairy, and it’s made by taking the essential genes of dairy and adding them to microflora. Then, a fermentation process is used to yield milk. I’m not a scientist so don’t ask me to elaborate further, gurl. Here’s a cute video that explains it':

          https://veganista.co/2019/08/16/i-just-tried-the-worlds-first-dairy-based-ice-cream-made-without-animals/

          oo-err..!..eh..?

          • phillip ure 7.5.2.2.1

            and this: (from above link..)

            'The truly exciting thing about flora-based dairy is all the other applications for this stuff. You know what I’m talking about ladies: CHEESE!!! Not that the vegan cheeses on the market aren’t good (thank you, Miyoko) – but can you imagine vegan cheeses that are identical to dairy cheeses that melt and stretch and all that – and NO ANIMALS were exploited? Genius!'..

            the dairy industry is fucked..eh..?…

            dairy farmers are like stable-owners just after the arrival of the first motor-cars..

            still arrogant/certain in their business-model – but a subtext of deep unease…

  6. Fireblade 8

    Well, I'm off to paint something. Then I can watch the paint dry.

  7. greywarshark 9

    Cannabis poll: Support plummets for legal pot

    But just 39 per cent of those who take part in a new survey carried out by Horizon Research – commissioned by New Zealand's largest licensed medicinal cannabis company, Helius Therapeutics – have said they support legalising the personal use of cannabis.

    Support in the survey – which featured 1003 respondents – is down from 52 per cent in April, and 60 per cent in November last year.

    What's going on here.   Can't NZs see that criminalising cannabis hasn't been helpful in controlling it.   Are we just a bunch of spineless jellyfish who can't make a stand on anythuing if there is any problem associated with that position?

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12258491

    • Graeme 9.1

      Yeah, right…

      commissioned by New Zealand's largest licensed medicinal cannabis company, Helius Therapeutics

      Who's business model goes all to poop when everyone's growing their own or buying "recreational" packaged weed, rather than their "medicinal" product at "medicinal" prices along with all the "medicinal" hoops you'll have to jump through.

      Bloody drug dealers, can’t trust them an inch. 

  8. Puckish Rogue 11

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12259200

    No, no a thousand times no. No good can come of this at all.

    • Rapunzel 11.1

      I think it's simple if those on home detention can vote despite having convictions in the court, often for fraud of quite high amounts, it should revert to the three year limit as it was before the National Party messed with it.

    • McFlock 11.2

      Why disenfranchise prisoners? Are you planning to lock up so many people that the political terrain changes?

      • Puckish Rogue 11.2.1

        When you're convicted you lose certain rights and voting is one of them, they do not deserve the right (and privilege) to vote until they've finished their sentence.

        Prisoners have far too many rights while ignoring their responsibilites so no they shouldn't get even more unearned rights 

        • McFlock 11.2.1.1

          Rights and privileges are different things. Privileges are rewards for positive behaviour. Rights are not earned. Rights are automatic, unless they conflict with the rights of other people. Failure to deliver on responsibilities loses privileges, not rights.

          Specifically, I can see why criminals are imprisoned: their right to freedom conflicts with the rights of people to control their own property and bodies, and to live without fear. The purpose is public safety and the safety of specific individuals by isolating the offender and dissuading further offending (via punishment and rehabilitation).

          But why prevent someone voting? It's unrelated to their offending (with very few offenders). It doesn't affect anyone else's rights. It doesn't provide protection to anyone. It just seems like societal petulance at best, and intentional alienation, humiliation, and dehumanisation at worst.

          • mac1 11.2.1.1.1

            Thank you, McFlock, for your clear exposition. I agree with you and am now clear as to why what PR said was somehow wrong.

            I would add that keeping prisoners away from being alienated from society is a  good thing as they will need to be reintroduced to free society.

            Am I right in saying that another problem with disenfranchising prisoners only is that other criminals who may have even done worse but who avoid imprisonment (like that young man recently kept out of jail because of his sporting ability) do not necessarily lose this right to vote. 

            Finally, the point that wholesale disenfranchisement of many members of a  class of people as with the blacks in America can happen, as it did under such laws as possession of marijuana which also resulted in loss of voting strength. 10,000 inmates who can't vote is about half an MP in MMP electoral terms. You refer to this in 11.2 I see.

            • McFlock 11.2.1.1.1.1

              Yes, it's absolutely insane in the USA. I believe the NZ effect is somewhat limited because we only do it to current inmates – they get the vote back once released. In the US, it varies state by state but does result in large areas being significantly disenfranchised. This is a deliberate tactic by US conservatives over decades.

              In NZ our prisoners are distributed across the country, so I doubt any single facility will flip an electorate from true-blue to a gang party. Except as a stepping-stone to permantly disenfranchise many Māori (disproportionately represented in our prison population), I can't see any point to disenfranchising current inmates (let alone seeing any real justification).

              • Puckish Rogue

                I can't see any point to reinstating voting rights to current inmates (let alone seeing any real justification).

                I barely hear anything from prisoners about voting except for the odd comment about legalizing dope so its not likes theres a massive out cry for it

                Setting it up would be a nightmare especially around security of the vote itself but most importantly its a right the prisoners have voluntarily given up so they don't get it back until they're released

                Maybe before I started work as a Corrections Officer I might have thought your views had merit but now, after coming up to 6 months contact with prisoners, I know that its a pointless exercise only designed to make people in ivory towers feel good about themselves

                • McFlock

                  I suppose the recurring "nightmare" was before your time. They only removed it under the previous government.

                  I'm not sure you'd like the "not many use it, so most barely notice it's gone" argument applied to any of your own rights.

                  • Puckish Rogue

                    Theres no solid arguement for giving back voting to prisoners, theres no upside and only downside with increased workloads for little to no gain but then I suppose its easy to say what should happen when you arn't going to have anything to do with the actual implementation

                    • McFlock

                      The solid argument is that voting is a right, and if we limit it for no reason then what sort of "democracy" are we?

                      This isn't "giving" anyone anything. It's merely us stopping an abuse of power that we are committing.

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      These prisoners choose to live outside of societies norms so no they don't get to fully participate in society and they certainly don't get to help shape society either

                    • McFlock

                      Dude, seriously? People choosing to live outside societal norms don't get to fully participate or vote?

                    • Sacha

                      Implementation is a red herring. Believing that they are not entitled is at least an honest position to argue.

          • Puckish Rogue 11.2.1.1.2

            Because Prisoners need to know, to understand, that their actions are bad, very bad and that negative actions have consequences and since one of the greatest privileges someone can have is to vote it should be withdrawn from a prisoner until such time as they've earned back the right to vote 

            "It just seems like societal petulance at best, and intentional alienation, humiliation, and dehumanisation at worst."

            You want these people to vote then all they to do to vote is not do that thing that sent them to prison

            Thats all they have to do but they don't want to fully follow the rules of society so they don't get to fully participate in society

            We don't take away their rights, they by their actions do

            • McFlock 11.2.1.1.2.1

              So we take people, lock them up, have judges lecture them, social workers talk at them, have them hear victim impact statements and restorative justice meetings, isolate them away from everyone else, but nobody realises they did a bad thing until you stop them from registering to vote?

              Even if your argument were the case – that disenfranchisement is unrelated to the offending, merely  punitive – I can't help but think that maybe it's the result of a lens that shows what would be a punishment to you. I suspect that if someone already feels somewhat alienated or maligned by society, it's just another gob of spit flung at them but not a meaningful sacrifice.

              But voting is, however, an opportunity to keep or make some social connection. There are more than a few alienated people who have never filled in an official form in their lives – might be a way in.

              • Puckish Rogue

                "but nobody realises they did a bad thing until you stop them from registering to vote?"

                Now you're getting it, finally, no they don't think they did bad things. If they hurt someone then that person deserved it, they asked for it. If they stole something from someone well thats ok because they wanted it, if they raped someone well she was leading them on and she really did want and now shes making up lies etc etc

                They don't think like you and I so giving them the vote is meaningless

                "But voting is, however, an opportunity to keep or make some social connection."

                Once they're in they get more social connection then they've likely ever had, they get the opportunity to live, coexist, interact with all types of people, they have the opportunity to work, to get an education, to become socialised. Voting is not required if thats what you think is needed.

                "There are more than a few alienated people who have never filled in an official form in their lives – might be a way in."

                Do you know how many official forms they fill in? I don't know because it a helluva lot but off the top of my head if you want a nurses visit, complain to the PCO, buy something, get a tv, a job, study, do a hobby, get a stereo, change your diet etc etc its all about filling out forms so again voting is not required

                • McFlock

                  The forms thing, ok – was thinking of a person I met who was on the outside. Lived in gangs, worked cash, no ID, DL, tax, census…

                  But if voting isn't a big deal to them, giving them the opportunity isn't overly onerous, is it. It's not a punishment to deny them votes. It's just a pointless removal of a right from the few who might wish to practise it.

                  For no reason. It fills no objective, serves no purpose.

                  • Puckish Rogue

                    "But if voting isn't a big deal to them, giving them the opportunity isn't overly onerous, is it"

                    Yes it is because what you're wanting is to increase the workload for staff that are already stretched

                    "It's just a pointless removal of a right from the few who might wish to practise it."

                    If they want to practice it then all they need to is not do the thing that sent them to prison, we don't remove their right they by their actions remove their right

                    "For no reason. It fills no objective, serves no purpose."

                    It helps to reinforce the notion that they need to earn their redemption, that prison is not a good place to be because you lose rights and that if you don't want to lose rights then you stay on the right side of the law

                    • McFlock

                      In the hundred or so years we had voting in prisons, how terrible was it?

                      And again, if its only purpose is as a punishment then it needs to be something they will miss – which you think most won't.

                      Don't kid yourself: this is something that we recently chose to do to them. You're argument is the same as "if you don't want to be hit in the face, don't be a dick. I'm not the one hitting you in the face, you are because you're being a dick". It's the petulant removal of access to a right. It's not related to the crime, and where noticed it won't be rehabilitative.

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      "In the hundred or so years we had voting in prisons, how terrible was it?"

                      Doesn't matter, they shouldn't have had it then and they shouldn't get it back now

                      "And again, if its only purpose is as a punishment then it needs to be something they will miss – which you think most won't."

                      As a single thing no it won't but it is another to them and, hopefully, all those reminders will add up

                      "Don't kid yourself: this is something that we recently chose to do to them."

                      It was wrong for them to have the vote and now that wrong has been corrected.

                      "You're argument is the same as "if you don't want to be hit in the face, don't be a dick. I'm not the one hitting you in the face, you are because you're being a dick"

                      These people are, mostly, simple and they respond to simple and clear messages so yeah don't want to lose the vote or any other right then don't commit the crime.

                      "It's the petulant removal of access to a right. It's not related to the crime, and where noticed it won't be rehabilitative."

                      Its not petulent as noted previously and having the vote will only cause more problems again as note previously

                      Now if you'll excuse me I'm going to bed because I have a shift in the morning in ISU where hopefully I won't have to be doing constant obs on suicide risks (again) or call in assistance for another person that pulled out the stitches on their arm and are bleeding out (again) or console a pedo/rapist that no they're not going to die because they heard on TV they were going to die (yes really, again) or have a discussion with a prisoner as to why they shouldn't do a poo on my boot (again) or shift through a prisoners poo to see what they were concealing up their back sides (again) or count out how many times a prisoner bangs their head against the window (again and 12s the record for me) because they're self harming

                      But I'll certainly take on board the idea that prisoners should be allowed to vote

          • Psycho Milt 11.2.1.1.3

            It just seems like societal petulance at best, and intentional alienation, humiliation, and dehumanisation at worst.

            That sums it up pretty nicely.  But those are attractive qualities to right-wing voters, so I expect we'll see a lot more "soft on crims" propaganda from National over this. 

  9. Fireblade 12

    Peter Fonda has died (aged 79).

    Steppenwolf – Born To Be Wild (Music Video from Easy Rider)

  10. joe90 13

    Tankie sides with totalitarianism, compares pro-democracy demonstrations to armed insurgency.

  11. i have never watched game of thrones..(viewing it as the 'friends' of costume drama..and that is not a compliment…'friends' with gratuitous violence – no thanks..)

    this reviewer hadn't watched it either – then binge-watched all of it..

    i am still not convinced – but it's a well written review..

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/16/arts/television/binge-watch-game-of-thrones.html

    • Herodotus 15.1

      Read the books, for me 1st was a great read, then the level enjoyment diminished by each book for me, still waiting in anticipation for the last 2.

      I have learnt from Fire and Ice, when reading a series of novels; wait until they are all completed and then binge read the series. Imagine if the Harry Potter series had this issue with 5+ years between books. Just as well we had the TV series at least there is one ending and resolution for us. 

  12. WeTheBleeple 16

    Here's one for Robert. This blew me away it's seriously cool bananas mate!

    https://www.boredpanda.com/7-trolls-forest-hidden-sculpture-thomas-dambo/?

    • Robert Guyton 16.1

      Wow: Trolls of worth!

      I'm planning something along those lines, using giant mushrooms instead of trolls. I've made some (not giant) as practice and like the results.

  13. Andre 17

    A worthwhile look back at the views and methods of the guy who led the US to the last significant reversal of a period of unfettered greedy oligarchy.

    https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/08/16/democrats-socialism-fdr-roosevelt-227622

  14. joe90 18

    Because it's all about cruelty.

  15. greywarshark 19

    Edit
    Large, amoral, bullying UK men (and women to ensure gender balance) might be a significant percentage of their population.    We had in NZ the abusive family with a Russian-doll effect, grandies, parents and young ones all apparently in the same mould, and glad to get rid of them back to their home country where they weren't welcomed any more than here.

    Now another example of the nouveau 'bitch' insisting on his road ownership to a bus driver, who suggests he shift his car back 10 ft allowing the bus to go through.   The reply is 'Never give way mate.   That's why I drive a Forty grand car and you don't' and he suggests the bus driver get another job.  It leaves me wondering why we went over in the 1940s to assist such an unlovely lot from low like this to high Tory.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7365787/Big-Oaf-motorist-claims-human-rights-infringed-footage-road-rage-rant-went-viral.html

    Or this: Does the Daily Mail dream these up? You wouldn’t read about it – but still you do and it is amazing.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7365027/Father-miracle-IVF-twins-drowned-mother-slams-10-year-sentence-mental-unit.html

  16. greywarshark 20

    Deeply respected UN leader killed in a plane crash in Africa, very sad, now is the subject of a doco that has revealed allegationsis so weird it could be true.

    White mercenaries plotted to spread HIV through Africa through fake vaccination program, claims documentary In 'Cold Case: Hammarskjold,'

    • Documentary maker Mads Brugger set out to investigate the mysterious 1961 plane crash that killed the head of UN in modern-day Zambia for his latest film
    • Instead he meets  Alexander Jones, a former member of a secret organisation 
    • Jones claims the group undertook nefarious HIV research in the 1980s and 1990s as part of a white supremacist plot to devastate black communities

    By Bridie Pearson-jones For Mailonline and Afp

    Published: 12:10 AEST, 15 August 2019 | Updated: 02:26 AEST, 17 August 2019

    White mercenaries planned to spread HIV to black South Africans via a phony vaccination program, according to a former member of a secret parliamentary group in a new documentary.

    Danish documentary-maker Mads Brugger set out to investigate the mysterious 1961 plane crash that killed the head of the UN in modern-day Zambia for his latest film, but says he ended up uncovering something vastly more sinister.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7358707/Film-claims-group-plotted-infect-black-Africans-HIV.html

  17. Pat 21

    "First, 63 percent of the total increase in global natural gas production in the 21st century has come from shale gas. And second, shale gas production using modern hydrofracturing techniques tends to produce lighter methane than conventional natural gas drilling.

    Howarth finds that if the lighter methane of shale gas production is explicitly accounted for, “shale-gas production in North America over the past decade may have contributed more than half of all of the increased [methane] emissions from fossil fuels globally and approximately one-third of the total increased emissions from all sources globally over the past decade.”

    Since 89 percent of the shale gas production comes from the US (Canada produced the rest), that’s a whole lot of accelerated global warming tracing right back to America’s front door."

    https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2019/8/15/20805136/climate-change-fracking-methane-emissions

  18. sumsuch 22

    We're infinitely divided unlike the founders . They understood it was all one thing — demo-cracy. Lets form a fist. Particularly when the Reserve Bank and Business NZ are coming at a Labour Govt from the left!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  19. Eco maori 23

    Kia Ora The Am Show. 

    I have decided to stay out of the Auckland Mayor debate . 

    Well there you go he wants to be a dictator in Green Land.

    People are already hired on culture preferences it called instertution discrimination so hiring a tangata whenua in one of the top jobs in this new organisation that is designed to lower Maori reoffending is just countering that phenomenon Ka pai Kelvin  .

    That's cool A Tonga Movie documentary made by A Tonga Wahine My Father s Kingdom being released today  Via Mana Wahine .

    I agree Aotearoa is a safe heaven so is Australia compared to the rest of the world. But our Tangata think that the rest of the Papatuanuku is the same they travel over seas and don't realise that phenomenon 

    Unless they are on package holiday tours they can quite easily end up in the kaka in a bad neighbourhood being robbed and stuffed up  I see this happening all the time.

    Astronomy is A amazing science we come from the Stars the more we learn about the matariki the more we will know about our Papatuanuku cool I am amazed with science.

    Jessica Eco Maori thanks you a the organisation that is Championing to Protect our Taonga Mauri and Hector dolphin there are other in a similar situation The Vaquita lives off the coast of New Mexico they are in a state close to EXTINCTION TO. Ka kite Ano 

  20. Eco maori 24

    Some Eco Maori Music For The Minute  

  21. Eco maori 25

    Kia Ora Newshub .

    Its great that the prison system is going to try and lower the tangata whenua reoffending and ending up back in jail +have more consideration for Maori Culture .

    That is good the Maori King meeting Our Prime ministers to try and work out a sensible solution to Ihumatao. 

    The tech industry is there for Aotearoa to boost our export earnings a big investment will reap huge returns in the future  just about everything will have a tech element to it.

    I say it's great banning that weight loss app from Aotearoa .

    Ka kite Ano 

  22. Eco maori 26

    Kia Ora Te Ao Maori News  

    I agree that our tamariki going into state care and juvenile court and jail has to be stop what a waste of there precious lives  . 

    Hone if the shoe was on the other foot you don't put down our Maori MPs this Coalition Government has delivered more for tangata whenua than any in the last 30 years just grand standing for votes .Why didn't you protest about the mess national made of Maori lives while they were in Parliament . A

    Kia Ora to all the tangata whenua at Turangawaewae marae paying respect to all their whanau who have moved on  I believe they are all watching us so I try to do them proud of my every ACTION as I don't want to disappoint my Mama . 

    The Turangawaewae marae hakari is making me hungry it looks reka . 

    Ka kite Ano 

  23. Eco maori 27

    Kia Ora The Am Show  

    Its time we taught society to respect Wahine and each other when you have a well known reporter making comments like that against Wahine who is a Papatuanuku leader that is not acceptable . I say it again Te neanderthal needs to retire his chovernistic climate denyers views and let someone from the next generation who cares  have about the future have the Mike change is coming fast.

    I agree that our government should back the online games tech industry I'm sure they have plans to increase investment to help develop and boost the industry  .

    Yes paula was just grand standing on the issue of the Labour Party employment bullying and other alagati her secret complaints have not come out of the dark. 

    Ka pai to our Coalition government and the fishing industry for working together to find a solution to the demise and extinction of Aotearoa taonga the Mauri Dolphin . 

    Its awesome that Tangata Whenua O Aotearoa has a big influence in Our fishing industry as I say if not the capitalist would not change their attitude to conserve our taonga the native wild life. 

    I think it great that the alcohol pushers are slowly decreaseing alcohol is a substance that should be taken with caution have adverts that show the damage it does to our society  on TV . 

     

    Ka kite Ano 

     

  24. Eco maori 28

    Some Eco Maori Music For The Minute  

  25. Eco maori 29

    Kia pai the tangata of Papatuanuku needs to let everyone know that it is not acceptable to disregard our future generations environment all in the name of $$$$$$$$$$$ 

    UK privately appeals to senior Australian ministers for climate action

    Exclusive: British high commissioner Vicki Treadell has met with Angus Taylor and Marise Payne

    The British government has privately appealed to senior Coalition ministers – including Angus Taylor and Marise Payne– to develop a more “ambitious” climate policy, amid growing concern Australia is not doing enough to cut emissions.

    As the government fends off criticism from Pacific island nations about its climate policies, Guardian Australia can reveal that the UK’s high commissioner to Australia, Vicki Treadell, has met with both ministers since the May election, using the introductory meetings to convey Britain’s view that it wants all countries, including Australia, to increase their climate ambitions.

    The UK has prioritised climate action, and last month became the first G7 country to legislate a target of net zero greenhouse gas emissions by 2050. Since 1990, the UK has reduced emissions by more than 40%, while the economy has grown by around 70%.

    “The UK government believes we have a moral duty to leave this world in better condition than that which we inherited, which is why we have set ourselves a target of net zero emissions by 2050

    Ka kite Ano link below  

     

    https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/aug/19/uk-privately-appeals-to-senior-australian-ministers-for-climate-action

  26. Eco maori 30

    Kia Ora Newshub. 

    That will be a great move getting the fuel company's into line to stop fleacing us national set it up so that the company's could make huge profits.

    I don't think its correct for the alcohol industry should be pushing to lower our alcohol consumption laws in town bars and clubs that stupid stuff on the streets is just a minor part of the carnage that alcohol causes . 

    Ka kite Ano. 

  27. Eco maori 31

    Kia Ora Te Ao Maori News  

    Tawhirimate is going Mana at the minute and my reception is bad .

    Ka kite Ano 

  28. Eco maori 32

    Kia Ora The Am Show . 

    White collar fraud is a big problem in our society WHY are they getting away with it ?? ?. Some in Aotearoa must have had a dose of reality the tax take went up recently ??? ?

    White nurse ????? brain fart.

    Sandy there are more people lost walking across a road than Shark mistaken people for pray deaths the way to minimise Shark accidents attacks is to warn people not to swim at dawn and dusk as that is the times that Sharks hunt the most.

    That's cool going to Nasa to design a controller for a robot .

    I just got a great deal from Spark on my new Huawei phone I  got free Rugby World Cup viewing in the deal + other thinks to my phone is great  .

    I agree banning smoking in cars is needed just passing the law will make a lot of difference in that problem   .

    I say it a stain on South Africa uppping the amount of Black Rinos to be trophy hunted from 4 to 9 with only 5000 left in the wild they should be under TOTAL PROTECTION  Rinos are awesome creatures that need to be preserved for EVER. 

    It would be a stressful time being in a situation where a wahine has to give up their tamariki for adoption in the 1970s. (Relatives Strangers) Pip Murdocks Book on her adoption experience   in the 1970s . 

    Rotorua recycling has improved heaps there are big wheelly  bins at each house for recycling every fortnight and a smaller one for rubbish  that gets empty weekly . I see the problems Napier has with the recycling service they have small inadequate bins on windy days the recycling get blown all over the place  . 

    Ka kite Ano 

     

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