Open mike 17/11/2020

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, November 17th, 2020 - 93 comments
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Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

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93 comments on “Open mike 17/11/2020 ”

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  1. Treetop 1
    17 November 2020 at 7:18 am
    1. What is going wrong when it comes to the dental health of children?

    2. Are parents to busy to be able to take children to a dental appointment if the the dental service does not go to a school?

    3. Does the dental model need to change with access to treatment?

    4. Is oral hygiene not being learned in the home, the importance of brushing teeth and not over doing the sugar?

    • Anne 1.1
      17 November 2020 at 10:03 am

      I can give you the short answer but if you want the long answer:

      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5534465/

      It will take you most of the day to read it.

      In the 1970s and early 1980s the Muldoon govt, began the process of cutting back the School Dental Service. Two successive governments continued this process and in the 1990s they were phased out altogether.

      The system that was put in its place was not as efficient nor did it cover the full spectrum of NZ children so many thousands missed out altogether. Add to that, the education school dental nurses regularly conducted in the classrooms disappeared which had been helpful for the kids and their parents.

      The only positive of the last few decades is the fluoridation of the drinking water – something my generation never had – but it has to be backed up with education and regular checks.

      Yes, I was a School Dental Nurse in the 1960s.

      • Treetop 1.1.1
        17 November 2020 at 1:01 pm

        I will read the link.

        I can see why you would have an interest in the delivery of dental care.

      • Graeme 1.1.2
        17 November 2020 at 1:32 pm

        Spot on Anne. The destruction if the school dental service was a travesty. Going back there would be an amazing move, but a mammoth, and probably insurmountable task.

        My mum worked at the murder house too, from the early 50’s until pretty much the end

        • Anne 1.1.2.1
          17 November 2020 at 5:09 pm

          Your mum lasted much longer than me. I did my five years "moral obligation" after graduating then shot off to greener pastures and to see the world. When I returned joined the Meteorological Service.

          Funny thing… once a SDN always a SDN. Bet you've got well cared for teeth. 😀

  2. Tricledrown 2
    17 November 2020 at 8:27 am

    Collins saying the govt should be supporting Chris Liddell to chair the OECD.

    Collins would though a Trump yes man fuelled by the Coal and Oil industries a Conservative.

    We need new ideas not old lacķy's who will no doubt promote a Conservative agenda.

    • Chris T 2.1
      17 November 2020 at 9:14 am

      Not sure what your issue with Liddell is.

      Jealousy?

      • Drowsy M. Kram 2.1.1
        17 November 2020 at 9:35 am

        Liddell seems like a good bloke. Maybe guilt by association – what was he thinking?

    • tc 2.2
      17 November 2020 at 10:29 am

      A media that doesn't regurgitate every distraction National have would be a start. The average punter probably doesn't give a F as to which suit sits at the top of the OECD club.

      Collins shambolic performance, the 'fat' comments and the fact that she is still leading National is the story IMO and shows how owned the media are.

  3. Adrian 3
    17 November 2020 at 9:18 am

    Look at the interview with Liddell with Jack Tame on Sunday morning. I didn't give him the time of day until I watched that. He may have been the only sane person in the room and held on because leaving would have left the White House in an even bigger mess as I think he thought he could modify the worst aspects of what could have happened.

    The OECD head needs to be an organiser not a dreamer.

    • Chris T 3.1
      17 November 2020 at 9:41 am

      Yeah, saw that. Comes across as just a decent, intelligent, sane bloke.

      Massive environmentalist as well apparently.

    • Treetop 3.2
      17 November 2020 at 9:42 am

      Liddell survived 4 years of Trump, the man has guts this is why I would give Liddell a go at being chair of the OECD.

      • McFlock 3.2.1
        17 November 2020 at 1:53 pm

        guts but no principles.

        • Treetop 3.2.1.1
          17 November 2020 at 5:43 pm

          Not many people with principles anywhere now days.

          • McFlock 3.2.1.1.1
            17 November 2020 at 7:10 pm

            Many people would balk at [checks notes] kidnapping children with no way of returning them to their parents, and making toddlers defendants in court cases.

            • Treetop 3.2.1.1.1.1
              17 November 2020 at 7:59 pm

              I do not condone that sort of behaviour. It would have taken more than Liddell to stop such a brutal policy. I would have a different opinion if it was a policy from Liddell.

              • McFlock …
                17 November 2020 at 9:02 pm

                The dude was in the room. He can leave that workplace at any time. He knew what was going on, and even if he spoke out against it he's still happy to work there.

                He's not a cook. He's part of the shitgibbon's regime. You don't get to have the words "Deputy white house chief of staff for policy" in your title and claim innocence about what the white house does.

                Edit: and I mean “claim innocence” even in the meaning that the people who were in any way involved in some of those policies, not to mention the negligent homicide of a quarter of a million people, should go to gaol. I doubt they will, but they bloody should.

                • Treetop …
                  17 November 2020 at 10:00 pm

                  If Liddell is found to have been lying this will not go unnoticed when it comes to selection for a top job. Liddell has to live with the choices he made.

                  The biggest swamp has been the White House under Trump and Biden has to drain it.

                  • McFlock …
                    17 November 2020 at 10:58 pm

                    All of which counts against Liddell as deserving any public role, especially one involving multilateralism, ever again.

    • Andre 3.3
      17 November 2020 at 9:49 am

      Does that actually show that Liddell is good at anything more than self-promotion and ducking anything inconvenient to his narrative? Y'know, the usual traits for a corporate ladder-climber?

      • Patricia Bremner 3.3.1
        17 November 2020 at 12:10 pm

        The fact he did not walk when children were separated from their parents, that families have such limited access to loved ones separated because of the wall, that he congratulated himself on "not losing his soul" , his credibility… not so much imo.

        • JanM 3.3.1.1
          17 November 2020 at 1:38 pm

          To be fair, Patricia, he did say he disagreed with that policy and acted to put a stop to it. If you can do something to change bad stuff maybe it is more ethical to stay

        • Chris T 3.3.1.2
          17 November 2020 at 8:48 pm

          Ardern worked as a senior policy advisor to Blair after his invasion of Iraq which was based on lies.

          I take it you are just as critical of her?

          • McFlock 3.3.1.2.1
            17 November 2020 at 9:18 pm

            Lol I think it's been mentioned here once or twice.

            But then that was 20 years ago, and who knows whether she knew they were lies (if Powell didn't, for example).

            The dude is still working for the Orange Child-Stealer right now, and knew what was going on. And the best he can say is that if there had been a vote, he wouldn't have voted for it.

            • Phillip ure 3.3.1.2.1.1
              17 November 2020 at 9:29 pm

              I seem to remember the basis of the accusations that blair is a war-criminal..&#039 are ‘cos he knew bush jnr was peddling lies…and yet he played right along…w.m.d.'s..?..anyone..?

              • McFlock …
                17 November 2020 at 9:39 pm

                And even if true, I'm not sure it's alleged Ardern was at a meeting of eleven Downing St officials where the topic "let's start a war on Iraq even though we're pretty sure they don't have WMDs" and the best thing she can say in her defence is "but if they had asked for a show of hands, I don't think I would have voted in favour of it".

            • Incognito 3.3.1.2.1.2
              17 November 2020 at 10:17 pm

              Trump has always surrounded himself with sycophants and loyalists and more so in recent times. What bothers me slightly about Liddell is that he still has his job with the Don. This suggests that he’s either an extremely smooth and skilled political operator, he’s a very convincing actor or he’s a true Trumpian loyalist.

          • Louis 3.3.1.2.2
            17 November 2020 at 9:24 pm

            Don't think so Chris. "what a tiny cog she would be – "we were in a unit of 80, and we were one of many units" – and that the connection to Blair was zilch.

            "I was working alongside small businesses"

            https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/96123508/jacinda-ardern-i-didnt-want-to-work-for-tony-blair

            • Chris T 3.3.1.2.2.1
              17 November 2020 at 10:37 pm

              She was one of his senior policy advisors.

              She says it herself if you look at her own archived bio on Labours website.

              [Please provide the link to “her own archived bio on Labours website” that Jacinda Ardern was “a senior policy advisor to him” or face the usual consequence for making up stuff, thanks – Incognito]

              • Louis …
                17 November 2020 at 10:39 pm

                You are wrong Chris. btw these are Jacinda's words that I quoted.

              • Incognito …
                17 November 2020 at 11:14 pm

                See my Moderation note @ 10:37 PM.

              • Rapunzel …
                17 November 2020 at 11:24 pm

                DO you have a link because I can't find anything that says anything of the sort

                Ardern moved to London where she became a senior policy adviser in an 80-person policy unit of then-British prime minister Tony Blair. (She did not meet Blair in London, but later at an event in New Zealand in 2011 she questioned him about the invasion of Iraq." Ardern was also seconded to the Home Office to help with a review of policing in England and Wales.

              • Chris T …
                18 November 2020 at 12:05 am

                1) Her own bio

                https://web.archive.org/web/20081223024509/http://labourparty.org.nz/people/

                2) Her uni

                "She then moved overseas to London, where she worked as a senior policy advisor for British Prime Minister Tony Blair in the UK Cabinet Office. She was also seconded to the Home Office to assist with a review of policing in England and Wales."

                https://www.waikato.ac.nz/study/success-stories/jacinda-ardern

                Do you want more?

                • Louis …
                  18 November 2020 at 4:51 am

                  Thank you for the links. You said she was an advisor to Blair, your links dont say that, specifically mentions "London" and "uk cabinet office" which if you had read the article I linked to, Jacinda said "she never met Blair in person at that time – " the Cabinet Office is massive" and as Rapunzel pointed out, her wiki page said she was part of an "80-person policy unit"

                • Rapunzel …
                  18 November 2020 at 6:17 am

                  I'm very happy with that it clarifies it perfectly as the Labour one by Ardern herself makes no mention of Blair at all and the 2nd is a 3rd person account from Waikato uni. She is not responsible as to why it was termed like that by the person who compiled it. They are Not the Same at all Chris.

              • Chris T …
                18 November 2020 at 12:08 am

                I have done. Please see below.

                [Thank you for providing the links. However, your first link doesn’t state what you claimed @ 3.3.1.2 and 3.3.1.2.2.1:

                “My time working abroad as a Senior Policy Advisor in London and as President of an International Youth organisation, has shown me how much we’ve achieved relative to other countries.”

                In other words, your assertion was made up. If you want to avoid being moderated for these seemingly trivial offences then at least you should include a link and quote literally rather than paraphrasing and ‘massaging’ the words and meanings to suit your narrative – Incognito]

          • Anne 3.3.1.2.3
            17 November 2020 at 9:47 pm

            No Chris T, she was nearer the bottom of the hierarchy – more like a junior assistant to a senior policy adviser. I recall her saying that she didn't even work in the same building and never actually met Blair.

      • Ad 3.3.2
        17 November 2020 at 8:33 pm

        That's not what Liddel's CV says and you know it.

        Ardern isn't particularly keen to support him to head the OECD, but then again, based on her pre-PM CV I wouldn't hire her for more than a policy advisor.

        • Andre 3.3.2.1
          17 November 2020 at 8:45 pm

          You're right, it's not what his CV says.

          It's what glib self-serving interview answers about the cheeto-tinged skidmark smeared down his CV tells us about him.

      • WeTheBleeple 3.3.3
        18 November 2020 at 8:58 am

        Agreed. Spotlight on him and he plays nice. Look who he's in bed with. I knew a mobster once who always came across as a 'good guy', till his gang told him to do heinous things and he obeyed.

        A dirtbag is a dirtbag. Lidell is culpable.

  4. Chris 4
    17 November 2020 at 9:51 am

    Two self-absorbed psychopaths scrap it out. Fantastic stuff. Keep going!

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300160252/jamilee-and-billys-divorce-who-gets-the-money

  5. greywarshark 5
    17 November 2020 at 10:46 am

    Thinking about Russian fishermen and industry relations between them and NZ. Which reminded me of the 1986 sinking of the Mikhail Lermontov (named after a Russian poet, so they had some feeling for this ship.) This from wikipedia:

    The Picton pilot, Don Jamison (who was also a Picton harbourmaster), piloted the ship out of Picton. His presence, and his knowledge of the area, should have assured the safety of MS Mikhail Lermontov.

    The resulting legal actions seemed comparatively low-key considering the magnitude of the damage and the wilful negligence of a supposed senior experienced mariner.
    Passengers brought cases against the parties and in Wikipedia there is an explanation of the legal aspects of one which would thrill the socks off of legal beagles I should expect. This is one part: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_Mikhail_Lermontov#Court_case

    The now-abolished forms of action cast a long shadow: a claim for money had and received evolved from the writ of indebitatus assumpsit, a legal fiction that the parties had an implied agreement that upon discharge for breach or frustration that the subject matter of the original agreement would be returned.

    Interestingly, though he was asked to give up his pilot's licence, and did, within two years he had an executive position in the company that took over from the harbour board. Not bad for a pom bringing a wrecking ball skill to us. He became harbourmaster and general manager of Port Marlborough Ltd in October 1988, when the company took over the commercial operation of the port from the previous harbour board. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/lermontov-pilot-retires/IBMQZZQLLOYER6TVZG27E7VKUI/

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/marlborough-express/4664013/25-years-on-ship-pilot-still-silent
    The Ministry of Transport held a preliminary inquiry immediately after the sinking, led by Captain Steve Ponsford. The Express reported on March 7, 1986, that the inquiry found Mr Jamison was responsible, but Mr Ponsford would not say what explanation Mr Jamison gave him for trying to take the ship through the passage.,,,

    The Marlborough Harbour Board and the ship's owners came to an out-of-court settlement for damages…
    Mr Prebble said on the 20th anniversary of the sinking that he had written to the Russians to offer an inquiry, but was told it was not necessary.

    (The ministry also wrote to Mr Jamison and suggested "very strongly" that he surrender his pilot's licence, which he did.)
    Mr Jamison was not charged because New Zealand-registered pilots working on foreign ships could not be prosecuted. The law has since been changed.
    Mr Ponsford recommended that no formal investigation be held, which was backed by then transport minister Richard Prebble.
    Mr Prebble said on the 20th anniversary of the sinking that he had written to the Russians to offer an inquiry, but was told it was not necessary…

    Mr Jamison later applied for and was re-issued his pilot's licence. He worked for Strait Shipping for a decade before retiring in 2001.

    The Mikhail Lermontov's captain, Vladislav Vorobyov, who was not on the bridge when the ship hit the rocks, was given a suspended four-year jail sentence after an inquiry in the former Soviet Union.

    We would never have heard the end of it if it was an Australian, UK or USA ship. It was such a stupendous boob that a conspiracy with the USA to confound Russia by organising this mishap seems wild but not improbable. Alternatively Jamison had some medication in him that upset his equilibrium.

  6. greywarshark 6
    17 November 2020 at 11:11 am

    Chant – 'War, war what's it good for?'

    This item shows how government can't hive off everything to bloody private business who treat us like casualties to cast aside when the business charity goes under for some reason or many.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/430774/laura-fergusson-trust-accused-of-bias-in-membership-applicationsIt is widely speculated that the Laura Fergusson Trust will sell its Greenlane site to recoup losses.Those trying to save the site say membership applications are being rejected for suspect reasons.

    Before its closure in August, Laura Fergusson Rehabilitation in Greenlane cared for thousands of Aucklanders with disabilities.

    Another longer chant –

    'We don't want prizes,
    We don't want enterprizes –
    No nasty surprises,
    We want govern-ment –
    What our votes meant.’

  7. joe90 7
    17 November 2020 at 11:17 am

    The barbarians responsible for this shit should get the triple-whammy, courts martial, criminal prosecution and then off to The Hague with the pricks.

    When Dr Crompvoets warned Lieutenant General Campbell in early 2016 that special forces insiders were disclosing to her abhorrent war crimes allegations, he urged her to keep digging and “write it all down”.

    “We're not talking about a couple of fog of war events that were, you know, perhaps confusing to understand," Dr Crompvoets recalls. "This is deliberate repeated patterns of behaviour.”

    It could have gone another way. Two generals, Lieutenant General Campbell and Jeff Sengelman, had in 2015 commissioned Dr Crompvoets to examine cultural failings in the special forces, especially the poor relations between the nation’s two elite fighting arms, the SAS and the Commandos.

    […]

    Dr Crompvoets' April 2016 report to generals Campbell and Sengelman described conduct that the military insiders she spoke to likened to the Abu Ghraib affair, the Iraq prisoner torture scandal that enveloped the US military in 2004. The crimes disclosed in her interviews with Australian special forces included alleged "competition killing and blood lust" and "the inhumane and unnecessary treatment of prisoners".

    In her interview with The Age, the Herald and 60 Minutes, she says some allegedly unlawful behaviour, such as summary executions, were “celebrated and normalised, and almost a rite of passage for some people”.

    Some of the men she spoke to, such as a soldier who described two unarmed teens having their throats allegedly slit and their bodies disposed of in a river, were in mental anguish. Others were emotionless as they explained how the mistreatment of prisoners became routine as small groups of special forces began writing their own rules of war.

    https://www.theage.com.au/national/killings-of-afghans-happened-all-the-time-20201115-p56erx.html?

    • AB 7.1
      17 November 2020 at 12:06 pm

      "…off to The Hague with the pricks"

      Yeah – though that might reinforce the self-protective mechanism of mythologising it as exceptional, 'bad apples', etc. When in fact it was completely predictable from the day the planes hit the towers on 9/11, and culturally-speaking, as Australian as barbecued prawns.

    • greywarshark 7.2
      17 November 2020 at 12:15 pm

      Scud would have some interesting anecdotes and points about that. The people carrying out brutality are also attacking their own sense of values, their own worth. When they surface and look at themselves they will not believe they could do that, or they just wear their actions like an armour and play the hard man for the rest of their lives. 'Mental anguish' or 'emotionless', their bodies have survived but has their unique mind? They are just fodder for the generals. But it might be the only job they can get in the future

      • WeTheBleeple 7.2.1
        18 November 2020 at 9:02 am

        Yep, they're now ruined individuals. Those perpetuating the culture of callousness and murder should most definitely be on trial. Destroying lives is not a matter of duty.

  8. RedLogix 8
    17 November 2020 at 12:08 pm

    An interesting speech from Stuart Nash on the future of tourism:

    They include strengthening Brand New Zealand, prioritising sustainability, and more partnership between government and industry.

    Nash said too often ratepayers and taxpayers have picked up the bill of the impact of tourism on infrastructure and the environment.

    He said the full cost of tourism needs to be priced into the visitor experience.

    …

    "We must attract high value and high spending visitors who buy into our own vision of sustainability. We must therefore deliver high quality visitor experiences and exceed our visitors expectations," he said.

    • greywarshark 8.1
      17 November 2020 at 12:19 pm

      Big talk from a pollie. He is describing something that is similar to what citizens hope they’ll get from government. Better pollies who exceed the citizens expectations. I think their remuneration is adequate though – now just perform you luvvies.

      Poor areas may not be able to attract the higher-paying tourists. The government may have to step in with infrastructure not just take taxes from the takings and make them the pot of gold that the locals go to for needed amenities.

    • Graeme 8.2
      17 November 2020 at 1:03 pm

      Pretty blunt language from Nash, and the day after industry darling Jucy went tits up.

      Jucy being the anthesis of everything Nash was talking about. But Nash was also describing a very large part if the industry at all levels that try to provide good quality, socially responsible tourism experiences.

      We’re not sorry to see Jucy go, and hope the rest of that end of the industry follows them, and very pleased to see the minister spelling it out.

      • Adrian 8.2.1
        17 November 2020 at 2:47 pm

        I think you are wrong because the influx of young people, generally just out of Uni is a huge benefit to our and their understanding of our culture and we theirs.

        They are also the future return visitors when they have more money and will spend more, as they almost without exception fall in love with NZ and NZers.

        If we are to discourage and make it difficult for them to do their OE then the reverse applies, young Kiwis not being able to affordably travel. To say you can only come here if you pay the outlandish fucking prices resorts and hotels charge then we have fallen into the elitist realm, which is not the Kiwi way.

        • Graeme 8.2.1.1
          17 November 2020 at 9:09 pm

          I think Nash was also referring to the side of the industry where about the only spending in NZ$ is the diesel that goes into the bus and the rates and electricity on the hotel. Everything else goes directly to, or through, the overseas owned inbound operator.

          It may turn out to be a self limiting situation any way, who is going to want to be crammed into a low-cost airliner, tour coach or cruise ship once this is all over. Doubtful this end of tourism has a business any more. It's going to be a long time before anything like the low cost travel we've enjoyed in the last 10 years, if ever. Insurance availability and price will slow international travel for a long time too, even with a vaccine.

          So the international visitors we see will be paying a lot more to get here, hence will tend to be wealthier and will probably prefer to stay in a flasher hotel or lodge than a packpacker van. Same will apply to outbound NZ tourism, it will be harder and more expensive, so there will be less.

          The minister was as much spelling out reality to the industry as stating policy.

      • Sacha 8.2.2
        17 November 2020 at 6:48 pm

        Were local companies other than Jucy innovating with capsule hotels etc?

        • Graeme 8.2.2.1
          17 November 2020 at 8:19 pm

          Were Jucy adding any value to NZ or cannibalising the industry and country. They've gone under, other more responsible operators are still going and in some cases quite well, Wayfare (Real Journeys / Fiordland Travel), Tourism Holdings, Skyline, Trojan.

          Bottom line, everyone in the industry should have known it was going to stop soon for whatever reason, pandemic, good old recession or whatever. Some had the business planning to adapt and keep going, others were caught with their pants down.

    • RosieLee 8.3
      17 November 2020 at 1:20 pm

      And what about ordinary Kiwis who just want to go on an average holiday, but can't afford it any more because they can't compete with overblown tourist prices and events?

      • Rosemary McDonald 8.3.1
        17 November 2020 at 4:21 pm

        …what about ordinary Kiwis …. Indeed. Made an overnight trip to Whangarei, so we required a reasonably wheelchair accessible motel unit.

        Tentatively booked one by phone and promised to call in before noon to pay….just as well as the unit was pokey and the parking completely unsuitable. Office person argued with me and proceeded to tell me that she could have let that room three times and 'we a late cancellation fee policy'…despite it being barely noon when we arrived.

        We left…figuring this is a Monday night how busy can they be?…and became increasingly alarmed as every motel sported a No Vacancy sign. Apart from Casa Grot…for which we forked out 145 bucks for the night.

        Any sympathy I may have had for motel accommodation providers has evaporated. They are doing so well they don't even have to try and maintain standards.

        Good luck to them attracting those big spenders…

    • Ad 8.4
      17 November 2020 at 3:55 pm

      Fine talk but what leverage is the Crown putting onto AirNZ.

      And further from local governments to ports taking cruises.

      And further on Immigration.

      Thats the source of cheap bulk tours.

      Not another year of failure to execute thanks Nash.

  9. joe90 9
    17 November 2020 at 12:24 pm

    Not too flash for the millions afflicted with autoimmune disorders, though.

    https://twitter.com/BillHanage/status/1328437557953241089

    The new coronavirus resurged again and again in the body of an infected man, eventually killing him while showing evidence of fast-paced evolution.

    Manuela Cernadas and Jonathan Li at Brigham and Women’s Hospital in Boston, Massachusetts, and their colleagues followed the course of COVID-19 in a 45-year-old man with a long-standing autoimmune disorder, who was on a medication regimen that included powerful immunosuppressants (B. Choi et al. N. Engl. J. Med. https://doi.org/fhv8; 2020). Roughly 40 days after the man first tested positive for SARS-CoV-2, follow-up tests indicated that the virus was dwindling — but it surged back, despite antiviral treatment.

    The man’s infection subsided and then returned twice more before he died, five months after his first COVID-19 diagnosis. Genomic analysis showed that the man had not been infected multiple times. Instead, the virus had lingered and quickly mutated in his body.

    https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-00502-w

    • Treetop 9.1
      17 November 2020 at 1:16 pm

      I would like to know the outcome if a person did not take immunosuppressant medication.

      As for the mutation what actually caused it I would like to know and whether it just affected a particular autoimmune condition.

    • Matiri 9.2
      17 November 2020 at 2:04 pm

      One of New Zealands covid deaths was a woman (50's?) on immunosuppressants for Lupus.

  10. Corey Humm 10
    17 November 2020 at 2:36 pm

    Labours motto looks set to become "let's do this but not till after we leave office"

    Ardern was defending Rogernomics today while ruling out any intervention in house prices or the reserve bank calling both muldoonist is just…. I wanna smash my keyboard.

    I criticize her a lot but I've been defending her lately hoping beyond hope that a majority labour govt would surprise us all but at this point the list of things she's ruling out is getting so long Peter Jacksons probably going to turn it into a 9 part film series. I'm starting to think Labour was the handbreak on NZF and The Greens (in a way those two parties have more in common with each other than they do with labour ie building up the state, abolishing neoliberalism)

    This is going to be long term bad for labour and the left, like Obama she excited an entire generation and promised transformation but unlike obama she told us capitalism had failed. We've seen what happens when you get peoples hopes up and then give them the finger once in power they get angry or stay home.

    Ardern and Labour/ National are really giving the next generation of voters the middle finger atm and I think long term both parties are going to suffer the consequences for it unless they start acting, which I hope if enough pressure is applied that they will see the sense and get the political will to do so especially on housing and poverty but it's increasingly unlikely. We're not asking for much just basic center left tweaks to benefit rates and restrictions and reforms in the housing market.

    Labours the party of reform , people flock to labour when the system needs correcting not because they want them to keep everything the same.

    • Adrian 10.1
      17 November 2020 at 3:01 pm

      How on Earth can the Government interfere in house prices? By freezing them ? That turned out really well under Muldoon with prices and wages, eh.

      What you are asking for is a command economy and they are disasterous, particulary for the less well off.

      Doing what they are doing, by building a lot more public housing and assisting the young into their own homes is about all that can be done to achieve the goals we want. Maybe you want Labour to forcibly buy rentals off landlords and sell them at half price to those needing housing. Instead of critisising come up with some solutions that aren't pie in the sky and ridiculously unworkable.

      • McFlock 10.1.1
        17 November 2020 at 3:35 pm

        Regulating one product is not the same as an across the board regulation of all wages and prices.

        Building more public housing is indeed what they should be doing. But price controls on houses would make ghost houses less attractive as an investment. Once those go back on the rental market, should help the housing crisis.

  11. Patricia Bremner 11
    17 November 2020 at 4:20 pm

    Tune in 25th Nov, you will get the summary of intent in the speech from the throne delivered by the Governor General on behalf of the Prime Minister.

    Then Jacinda and her family will shortly after have a Christmas break. I hope she is not begrudged that after such a turbulent year.

    The Pandemic is not over, in fact it is surging out of control in many areas of the world, and we are fortunate to have dodged that.

    There will be side affects caused by the Pandemic and the monetary policy, as Jacinda Ardern said, "This did not come with a manual, and we must be ready to pivot and to listen to the science."

    Frustration at the pace of change is real, but so is a battle for stability in an unstable world.

  12. weka 12
    17 November 2020 at 4:31 pm

    Dude on The Panel just now suggested that stamp duty on second properties, introduced at a week's notice, would help the housing crisis. Can someone please explain how?

    • Adrian 12.1
      17 November 2020 at 5:06 pm

      Apparently you have to pay Stamp Duty when you buy the house but at 2% money it's not much of a handbrake. Oh God ,2% money, thats what my parents had in 1948 with State advances, when my wife and I bought 35 years later it only took months to rocket to over 20%. FFS stop complaining about cheap money, remember 20% is all the deposit needed to buy a first home now, not a years mortgage every bloody year.

      Some people would complain etc….

      • weka 12.1.1
        17 November 2020 at 6:41 pm

        In the 90s, a 20% deposit was all that was needed and you could buy a house for $100,000 and beneficiaries could afford the mortgage.

        • gsays 12.1.1.1
          17 November 2020 at 7:23 pm

          That seems to show the bigger picture, it isn't just the price of the houses, our shamefully low wage, non-unionised, casualised work force is part of the picture.

          A couple of other ideas I have seen on TS, property investors should be limited to new builds and/or 30 or 40% deposit for folk who are not going to reside in the dwelling.

  13. cricklewood 13
    17 November 2020 at 4:41 pm

    This Labour govt seems to be looking more like the Fourth Labour govt than the First with every passing week…

    • Patricia Bremner 13.1
      17 November 2020 at 5:42 pm

      The House isn't sitting yet!!

      • Cricklewood 13.1.1
        17 November 2020 at 6:29 pm

        Sure, but given the tone so far tell me im wrong…

      • weka 13.1.2
        17 November 2020 at 6:42 pm

        can you please explain this argument? The PM and Ministers are making policy decisions every day and announcing them. Why should we not critique those?

      • Ad 13.1.3
        17 November 2020 at 8:39 pm

        It's not the House you need to worry about.

        It's a functioning Cabinet that's actually showing it's achieving stuff.

        The trade deal they announced this week was began under National and driven by MFAT, and for which Labour in government played passenger.

        Currently looks like this government won't actually get underway until February. That's a third of a year wasted since getting elected.

        And even when they start, the legislative programme is negligible.

        Ardern it's time to actually show you can execute real policy. Not just fold like origami every time there's something hard to do.

      • Incognito 13.1.4
        17 November 2020 at 10:20 pm

        Can somebody please tell the PM and her freshly anointed Ministers that they are no longer the Caretaker Government and that it’s ok to get moving with the mandate? Thank you so much.

  14. Phillip ure 14
    17 November 2020 at 7:21 pm

    Re j.ardern talking about house deposits.

    I think we should steel ourselves for some more middle-class welfare..

    • Pat 14.1
      17 November 2020 at 7:46 pm

      quite possibly…sadly any gov assistance for deposit provision is likely to fuel property inflation even more

      • Cricklewood 14.1.1
        17 November 2020 at 8:48 pm

        Yep just more fuel on the fire, this govt is already showing it is at best status quo and likely to preside over one of the largest jumps in house prices and private debt bubbles in NZ history.

        Its a long way from the first Lab govt and Jacinda aint no Mickey Savage or Norm Kirk.

        Instead of pouring cheap credit into the banks (inevitability to be lent on property) im sure the aforementioned Labour leaders would have been announcing additional payments to beneficiaries and the working poor.

        • Pat 14.1.1.1
          17 November 2020 at 9:01 pm

          Technically the Gov hasnt poured cheap credit into the banks. thats monetary policy and independent but they havnt done anything to offset the impact to their shame…and yes they could increase benefits especially in light of the increased minimum wage

  15. Eco Maori 15
    18 November 2020 at 2:37 pm

    We're are the authorities when you need them people trying to run me off the road every day O that's right it the spy's and under cover cops trying to run me off the roads and pulling a lot of other BULLSHIT against me and my Whanau.

    Ka kite Ano