Open mike 17/09/2013

Written By: - Date published: 6:22 am, September 17th, 2013 - 151 comments
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Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

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Step right up to the mike…

151 comments on “Open mike 17/09/2013 ”

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  1. vto 1
    17 September 2013 at 6:55 am

    You would have to assume that the farming community in Hawkes Bay want to simply want to take this river all for themselves for use an irrigator and a cow-sewer drain.

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/regional/221858/doc-paper-says-dam-proposal-'risky‘

    Eating the environment. Again.

    What the fuck is the matter with the farming sector? Bloody ignorant and selfish in the extreme

    • Paul 1.1
      17 September 2013 at 6:59 am

      They think everything and everyone is just a commodity.
      Their grandchildren will not thank them.

      • Draco T Bastard 1.1.1
        17 September 2013 at 11:42 am

        They think everything and everyone is just a commodity.

        No, it’s actually worse than that – they think everything and everyone is there for their convenience. Thing is, we’ve actually been telling them that for the last 100 years or so.

    • chris73 1.2
      17 September 2013 at 7:15 am

      I do agree that theres too many dairy farms being set up in areas where they shouldn’t be

    • Sanctuary 1.3
      17 September 2013 at 7:29 am

      “…You would have to assume that the farming community in Hawkes Bay want to simply want to take this river all for themselves for use an irrigator and a cow-sewer drain…”

      Take out the word assume…

      Effectively, what they want is to take control of a public asset (water) for their exclusive private profit (dairy conversions) and expect the ratepayers and taxpayers to pay for the consequences.

      • vto 1.3.1
        17 September 2013 at 7:57 am

        Yep. I am gobsmacked.

        The brazen cheek of it, the complete and utter dismissal of environmental issues, the zero concern for the flora and fauna which currently inhabits the area (i.e. kill the animals, no worry), the lack of respect, the lack of care.

        It is the colonial settler approach to the environment.

        Completely irresponsible.

    • Chooky 1.4
      17 September 2013 at 9:04 am

      @vto….especially the corporate farming sector( and I would overseas newly arrived …last 20 years….Brits etc who dont give a toss about NZ’s natural environment …..just their back pocket dairy and property development profits)…..there are a lot of small non dairy NZ farmers who are environmentalists….as are many people living in the country who want their rivers back at full flow and clean so they can swim in them again…..

    • Rogue Trooper 1.5
      17 September 2013 at 9:55 am

      “could kill the Tukituki River; focus on phosphorus to the exclusion of nitrogen level increases toxic”.

      • Rogue Trooper 1.6.1
        17 September 2013 at 11:47 am

        I’d like to ‘gag’ some of the male cats around my whare, sniffing around ‘Minnie’ and spraying on the freakin doorsteps. oooh, could be a few metaphorical analogies to be found in there… 😀

    • weka 1.7
      17 September 2013 at 2:22 pm

      “What the fuck is the matter with the farming sector? Bloody ignorant and selfish in the extreme”

      True-ish. But then there are the regulators, and the people that give them the power to regulate. How many people are taking regional council elections seriously at the moment? (sorry Canterbury).

  2. North 2
    17 September 2013 at 7:19 am

    Could this from John Armstrong in the Herald this morning be a sign that Armstrong is contemplating getting into his craft in an honourable and serious way ?

    I expect there will be a few flashbacks to banal and lazy facileness but he’s starting to look not bad is Armstrong.

    There does remain for correction/apology that risible hallucination of yore – “John Key has gravitas……”

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/john-armstrong-on-politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=1502865&objectid=11125624

    • amirite 2.1
      17 September 2013 at 7:25 am

      I don’t mean to be nasty, but it seems that his Parkinsons’ had got the better of him.
      You can say many things about Key, but that he has gravitas…it made me laugh out loud.

      But, back to reality. The barrage against Cunliffe has started, he’s accusing him of being far-left – like it is a bad thing?
      Get real, PinoKeyo.:
      Key snipes at rival on trade
      http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11125594

      • miravox 2.1.1
        17 September 2013 at 7:31 am

        “The barrage against Cunliffe has started, [Key] accusing him of being far-left”

        Well I guess to an extreme neo-liberal common social democratic policies might seem a bit difficult to understand. In successful Euro countries they’re just BAU.

      • Paul 2.1.2
        17 September 2013 at 7:33 am

        “The unions decided the leader of the Labour Party,” Mr Key said at his post-Cabinet press conference.

        To which the retort is Sky City, Merrill Lynch and Warner Brothers selected the leader of the National Party.

        • Jim Nald 2.1.2.1
          17 September 2013 at 7:50 am

          Labour: democratic
          National: kleptocratic

          • geoff 2.1.2.1.1
            17 September 2013 at 8:35 am

            Good billboard.

            • McFlock 2.1.2.1.1.1
              17 September 2013 at 12:52 pm

              lol
              since national standards have come in, there’ll be a raft of crashes as people try to figure out what “kleptocratic” means.

              Who needs to prescribe newspeak, when all you have to do is fail to adequately teach oldspeak….

      • Tim 2.1.3
        17 September 2013 at 8:19 am

        “You can say many things about Key, but that he has gravitas
it made me laugh out loud.”

        Well you’ll recall right fro the outset, people (oops, I meant MSM) described him as having ‘charisma’! FFS! Maybe to an ugboot

    • Sanctuary 2.2
      17 September 2013 at 7:32 am

      I think he just found it refreshing to find someone who isn’t an oratorical retard in charge of the Labour party, to which I can only amen and hallelujah brother.

      • Tim 2.2.1
        17 September 2013 at 8:25 am

        Agreed – except that I don’t regard someone versed in corporate-speak and buzz as being any better. Still – I bet he’s had ‘learnings’ since then, and we should never underestimate the ability of the s-h-r to survive. He (Key) said that he’ll treat Cunliffe with “respect”. That’ll be a change at least. Here’s hoping he treats parliament and democratic principles the same way.

    • karol 2.3
      17 September 2013 at 7:42 am

      Armstrong doesn’t seem to have understood that the caucus, not Cunliffe, decide the deputy & whip. Cunliffe can state his preference, and maybe do some lobbying, but ultimately he only has one vote on those roles in the caucus.

  3. Tautoko Viper 3
    17 September 2013 at 7:32 am

    This is an interesting article about systemic evil, civil disobedience and attitudes to whistleblowers.

    http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/09/15/the-banality-of-systemic-evil/?_r=2&

    • RedLogix 3.1
      17 September 2013 at 8:44 am

      Tautoko V,

      Thanks. In all the well-justified excitement around the Labour leadership election, the re-invigoration of the left, and the great start that DC has gotten off to .. it’s been easy to let these very large and fundamental matters slip off the radar.

      The article you linked to is, of all the very many pixels I’ve devoured on the topic, one of the very most concise and cogent. Well worth the read.

  4. Craig GlenEden 4
    17 September 2013 at 7:52 am

    Cunliffes had one day in charge and already he has taken the challenge to John Key on the copper issue, raised the issue of the nations children and poverty and made it clear he will do what’s necessary to bring about unity in the Labour caucus.
    Key is doing his best to try and portray “Im not worried” but you can see in his eyes he is.
    I know its very early days but no matter what side of the political spectrum you are on I think most would agree Cunliffe got off to a very good start on day one.

  5. marty mars 5
    17 September 2013 at 7:55 am

    This is worth a read – http://www.publicintegrity.org/finance/after-meltdown

    In the fall of 2008, the U.S. economy nearly collapsed thanks to an unprecedented wave of mortgage foreclosures. In “After the Meltdown — Where are they now?” the Center for Public Integrity revisits the subprime lenders, Wall Street banks and government regulators that were most responsible for the crash — and finds few if any have been held accountable.

    an example,

    Richard Fuld, former CEO of Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc.

    Fuld earned about $69.5 million in 2007, the year before Lehman Brothers filed for bankruptcy in Sept. 2008. From 2000 to 2007, he was awarded about $889.5 million and cashed out about $529 million of that before the company went bankrupt.
    He owns homes in Greenwich, Connecticut, Jupiter Island, Florida and a ranch in rural Idaho.
    Fuld has since started a consulting firm called Matrix Advisors LLC.

    Yep when you get the money you can keep the honey.

    • muzza 5.1
      17 September 2013 at 8:31 am

      Hey Marty, hope you’re well.

      Yup, the system is nicely stitched up, with Maddoff the only real fall guy inside the imperialist financial sector, and thats because he ripped off the very wealthy!

      Otherwise its been SNAFU, with the banks/insurance/financial vehicles all steaming ahead, at expense of the planet, and its inhabitants!

      All and any distractions, such as can be seen in the Middle East, are part of the on-going wars, which the controllers of the banking/financial/military industrial complex, are directing!

      It takes unimaginable power, to brush off the largest crimes that history has ever known, as if they never happened at all!

      • marty mars 5.1.1
        17 September 2013 at 8:57 am

        Hey Muzza, yep I’m great (getting married in 3 weeks!!!)

        I find it amazing that these scum have ended up (in truth they never had any fall at all) back earning the big bucks as if the meltdown and their greed never happened WTF!!!

        • Dr Terry 5.1.1.1
          17 September 2013 at 9:18 am

          marty, while what you say is true, these scum will eventually have meltdown of another kind not to do with money and greed, for meltdowns still happen to the wealthy. How many big bucks will they take with them (for they actually are going to die before very long!)? All I can suggest is that they ensure burial in solid gold coffins! That might make their uneasy souls feel a little better?

          • marty mars 5.1.1.1.1
            17 September 2013 at 9:50 am

            Yes Dr Terry so true – ‘Don’t fear the reaper’ – I think they would be wise to, considering the amount of suffering to others they have directly caused and are still causing. I’m sure when the inevitable becomes obvious to them they will turn up at the nearest soup kitchen to try and make amends lol – very few of them distribute their ill-gotten gains before the big scythe starts moving in their direction, more’s the pity.

        • muzza 5.1.1.2
          17 September 2013 at 12:58 pm

          Congratulations Marty, busy/exciting times for all involved.

          I find it amazing that these scum have ended up (in truth they never had any fall at all) back earning the big bucks as if the meltdown and their greed never happened WTF!!!

          The financial system is the biggest lie going, and with the architecture that is its design, it is with certainty, that the same entities come out on top, so tight are the industries which hang off global finance and markets.

          Sure some businesses will falter and fail, but it makes no difference, the name of the game is monopoly, and that is more or less what the world has to deal with, control being the MO, and there is no view of it ending, if it does, it is going to be bad news, for pretty much all parts of the globe.

          So in effect your right, there has been no fall off, if there was, the system would more or less collapse, derivatives running at orders of magnitude to what the planets energy, human/otherwise is able to support, pretty much locks in some rather nasty outcomes, not sure the bankers owners though, and their minions.

          They are busy off buying real assets, life supporting assets, while the rest are left with debt, which requires energy to pay back, or if people are lucky, they will be left holding worthless paper, which won’t keep you alive if TSHTF!

    • Rogue Trooper 5.2
      17 September 2013 at 10:01 am

      Q.E delivered a gift of 2.75 Trillion to the Markets; see what happens when the Fed signals shutting off the slush fund again.

  6. Colonial Viper 6
    17 September 2013 at 7:57 am

    Cunliffe’s address to the Black Salt Bar, Sun Sept 15

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIl3x1fQay4

    Hat tip Jim Nald…

  7. karol 7
    17 September 2013 at 8:34 am

    Peter Dunne calls David Cunliffe “pompous”.

    Mwahahahahahahahahhhahahah!

  8. phillip ure 8
    17 September 2013 at 8:59 am

    a writer in the guardian did a totally unhinged/logic-free anti-pot rant..

    ..and i tried to..but i couldn’t just let it go past..

    ..i had to unpack it..

    ..it’s taken about 30 bloody mins to do..!

    ..fighting the spreading of ignorance is no easy task..

    http://whoar.co.nz/2013/ed-an-old-school-anti-pot-rant-so-impressive-in-examples-of-logic-failure-it-deserves-unpacking/

    phillip ure..

  9. Chooky 9
    17 September 2013 at 9:34 am

    What is wrong with Radio NZ News?

    …..this morning between 8.30 and 9.00am they had Peter Dunne giving his opinion that David Cunliffe was not going to be any good against John Key in parliament…..a pathetic personal attack!….(I thought we were over these)

    ….It was a statement not related to anything….just slotted in….just a bald party political broadcast from National undercutting and dissing David Cunliffe at a personal level….to Radio NZ listeners .

    …..and since when has this badly discredited Peter Dunne…. some would say immoral and cynically expedient politician, recently found without a party…and scrambling to get membership….. without any moral compass except to stay in parliament, keep his money and perks…. and boot- lick John Key……been a political commentator on Labour and Labour Party members choice of a Leader….It is disgraceful! The gall and ego of this little, religious hypocritical turncoat greedy man parrot….

    And SHAME on RadioNZ….who is in charge of ‘news’?!….are they also National Party boot- lickers?

    It had nothing to do with anything …and it was great disrespect to Labour Party voters…is this a calculated indoctrination torture drip treatment to Radio NZ listeners …who expect fair play .

    Where is Morriessy?

    • Greywarbler 9.1
      17 September 2013 at 10:26 am

      Pter Dunne being interviewed by Demelza Leslie on Radionz with his well modulated baritone avuncular voice. Talking about John Key’s vast ability at understatement. Would that be like ‘Well Peter this policy is really important to us but of course you must decide its merits for yourself, and we will wait with pregnant anticipation to see if you deliver’. Like that maybe!

      • bad12 9.1.1
        17 September 2013 at 10:37 am

        Or more to the point, ”You don’t want the public to read all those steamy emails between you and Andrea Vance do you”…

        • Tracey 9.1.1.1
          17 September 2013 at 10:44 am

          LOL

          Could someone ask key the following question?

          If people who have nothing to hide have nothing to fear in NZ, what does he think that Dnnne got to hide because he wont release his emails?

          alternative

          Given people who have nothing to hide have nothing to fear in giving up their communications why does this government have the worst record of Ministerial releases pursuant to the OIA?

  10. bad12 10
    17 September 2013 at 10:11 am

    From RadioNZ news at 10, David Cunliffe is said to favor David Parker as both His Finance Spokesperson and His deputy,

    The claim goes further saying that Cunliffe is promoting Grant Robertson as ‘leader of the House’ which would leave Trevor Mallard out in the cold,

    Those of course are not the words of David Cunliffe himself, and this maybe National Radio involving itself in a spot of underhand Jonolism which it will probably use if the Caucus elects Robertson as deputy, to set up a ‘Cunliffe got rolled slur’…

    • Tracey 10.1
      17 September 2013 at 10:16 am

      I think Grant would be a great leader of the house provided he has a great grasp of all the rules. We dont need another Brownlee in the house who despite 20 years in the place doesnt know the rules.

      mallard’s day is gone. He knows that, right?

      • bad12 10.1.1
        17 September 2013 at 10:27 am

        Lolz, other than repeating RadioNZ’s speculation i am not going to speculate, except LOLZ, to say that David Cunliffe obviously has the smarts to collect around Him a core group who He knows will give their full support to His Leadership,

        Should Labours back-benches suddenly take on the look of the old folks home signalling bye bye to any number of familiar faces in 2014 i will Lolz all the louder,

        Hopefully Party Central are now beginning to take a long hard look at the Party List with a view to arranging this so as to give David Cunliffe some top flight candidates for the future,

        i do tho have to wonder what will become of that well known Gypsy Journo ‘Jane’, where next will Her fine feathers find a nest…

        • Chooky 10.1.1.1
          17 September 2013 at 12:32 pm

          @bad12….she has increasingly been seen edging leftwards along the perches……. in terms of rooster politics…maybe she is waiting for Mr.Lefty Left?

          ….she likes the front perches

          ….who is going to push Trev off his perch?….he never was good enough for her……

      • bad12 10.1.2
        17 September 2013 at 10:41 am

        RadioNZ are giving more detail right now and it appears that they have got their detail from an earlier meeting between David Cunliffe,Grant Robertson,Shane Jones and Moira Coatsworth…

        • Tracey 10.1.2.1
          17 September 2013 at 10:47 am

          which still leaves the question of, why the leak? Unless someone in there isnt happy with what they are going to get and is using the media to get the message out so feelings can be expressed to change a mind?

          • bad12 10.1.2.1.1
            17 September 2013 at 10:54 am

            No i don’t think it was a leak, seems to have been a deliberate fronting of the media after the meeting of the above by the above, if you can follow that,

            More a show of ‘we are working this out together’ and quite happy to let the media and therefor the public see us doing that working out…

      • phillip ure 10.1.3
        17 September 2013 at 11:19 am

        “..mallard’s day is gone..”

        you can trace the decline and fall of the mallard..

        ..directly back to when he first donned/dabbled in..the lycra..

        ..no-one could possibly take him seriously again..

        ..after exposure like that…

        ..phillip ure..

        • Greywarbler 10.1.3.1
          17 September 2013 at 11:53 am

          I think – am I being petty? Answer is yes I am. I think I’m jealous because I couldn’t dare to expose myself and my fat in lycra. Note to myself – leave the lycra alone but get sleek like a seal without it. Maybe I’ll start today.

        • billbrowne 10.1.3.2
          17 September 2013 at 1:17 pm

          Mallard’s precipitous decline started when he started closing down schools in Labour heartland.

  11. Rogue Trooper 11
    17 September 2013 at 10:17 am

    Korn’s (not the band ), Alejandro (1830-1936) , born in San Vicente, Argentina, reading of Kant and Schopenhauer led him to move away from the *positivism predominant in Latin American philosophy in the late 19th century.While still retaining their central claim that knowledge must be based on experience, he went on to assert that philosophy must not be reduced to analysis of empirical facts, but is fundamentally concerned with values.In La libertard creadora he proposed a creative concept of *freedom according to which the ends of human actions is to overcome the laws of necessity that govern the objective world, through the realization of creative impulse, manifested in self-control and the technological (stewardship) of nature. Axiologia , his most important work (1930) defends a subjectivist position, wherein value is understood as relative to human evaluation.

    -Solomon Lipp, Three Argentine Thinkers :New York, 1969.

  12. Winston Smith 12
    17 September 2013 at 10:18 am

    If I was advising Key I’d suggest to let Cunliffe have his honeymoon and only do some very gentle ribbing, something along the lines of hoping Cunliffe getts the same support he gave Goff and Shearer or something similar maybe involving Robertson…nothing major though

    Then after a couple of days go into attack mode

    • fender 12.1
      17 September 2013 at 10:24 am

      🙄

    • Pascal's bookie 12.2
      17 September 2013 at 10:49 am

      “Then after a couple of days go into attack mode”

      Except Key is out of the country for the next few weeks.

    • bad12 12.3
      17 September 2013 at 10:50 am

      If i was advising Slippery i would tell him to book the tickets to Hawaii now and save a few bucks on the fare,

      Now who did the little shyster shaft to get the top job in the National Party again, i forgot there’s been so many, Bill from Dipton??? Doctor Dullard Don Brash???, the detail escapes me around the laughter,

      One more bad poll and Judith Collins will start counting the numbers among the back bench who are all counting the numbers right now to see who’s left after 41% and falling…

      • Winston Smith 12.3.1
        17 September 2013 at 11:52 am

        “41% and falling”

        – You do realise those are numbers Labour would die for

        • Colonial Viper 12.3.1.1
          17 September 2013 at 1:04 pm

          lolz there will be a change of government with Labour on 35% mate.

          • McFlock 12.3.1.1.1
            17 September 2013 at 1:15 pm

            It’s amazing what one can do when one has friends 🙂

            • Winston Smith 12.3.1.1.1.1
              17 September 2013 at 2:44 pm

              Even more amazing when one has the treasury benches…

              • McFlock …
                17 September 2013 at 3:40 pm

                Kind of the point.
                On 41%, with no friends other than Banks, Dunne and the Maori Party remnants, the nats are fucked. Or are you pinning your hopes on Winston.

                And post-election, the government selleth, the government can also taketh away…

                • Winston Smith …
                  17 September 2013 at 4:01 pm

                  I’m quietly confident that National will be returned to power based on how the country has been run for the last couple of years and that Labour will (once again) shoot itself in the foot

                  • thatguynz …
                    17 September 2013 at 4:05 pm

                    So given the level of support of your current coalition partners are you suggesting that National will actually increase its vote and garner a majority to govern alone?

                    • McFlock …
                      17 September 2013 at 4:17 pm

                      Of course he is. Nat support is increasing – 45% in 2008, 47% in 2011, at that rate they’ll be on 49/50% in 2014. Possibly even enough to govern alone!

                      Of course, reality might choose to show it’s liberal bias…

                  • blue leopard (Get Lost GCSB Bill) …
                    17 September 2013 at 4:09 pm

                    @ Winston Smith

                    Perhaps it is you that must learn to see the difference between dreams and reality.

        • bad12 12.3.1.2
          17 September 2013 at 2:15 pm

          Seeing is ‘those numbers’ as you put it have been arrived at via 51% and 47% i would suggest that they are indeed numbers to die for as far as Slippery’s National Government is concerned,

          And might add if it gets below 40% it’s odds on that it will be Judith Colin’s National Government that contests and loses(horribly) the 2014 election…

        • Daveosaurus 12.3.1.3
          17 September 2013 at 5:49 pm

          By your reckoning, then, over on the West Island, Tony Abbott must have got his arse handed to him when he only scored 31.76% of the vote compared with Kevin Rudd’s 33.83%.

          Here’s a new word for you to learn: C o a l i t i o n.

    • phillip ure 12.4
      17 September 2013 at 11:23 am

      if you really were ‘advising’ key..there..winston..

      ..surely you’d advise..that in his best interests..

      ..he should just continue on his holidays..?

      ..and let collins drive the national-train into dead(wo)mans’-gultch..

      ..eh..?

      phillip ure..

    • Tracey 12.5
      17 September 2013 at 11:56 am

      Key doesnt take advice.

      • Tracey 12.5.1
        17 September 2013 at 11:59 am

        For a guy running the country and not bovvered by labour, he sure is quick to have an opinion on the ins and outs of labour party workings.

        ” PM John Key says David Parker’s likely promotion to Labour deputy leader emphasises the rifts within the party’s caucus. ”

        Whereas Tolley and Collins speaking out about their emails, that wasn’t a rift, right John?

  13. Rogue Trooper 13
    17 September 2013 at 10:33 am

    Kropotkin, Peter (1842.-1921) was the most influential theorist of *anarchism for several decades following the death of Bakunin in 1876. (in the great scheme of things, not a long, long time ago, and considering the persistence of Putin…anyway I digress). Early in his life he rejected his aristocratic background, and while consistently maintaining his faith in the supreme goodness of human nature, attributed the evidence to the contrary (of which there is much, sadly) to the insidious influence of state authority and exploitative capitalism. For him, any external authority was corrupted by definition. This conviction underlay his disinclination to describe the organizational principles of an anarchist movement or society, believing that it was preferable the oppressed masses arrange the system under which they live.In addition to his attempts to imbue society with ethical principles, Kropotkin produced many practical plans for the improvement of the agricultural and industrial communities of his time.
    His biting 😉 criticisms of the terrible power of the state to disrupt and destroy what he considered natural communities remain impressive and moving today.

    • Chooky 13.1
      17 September 2013 at 2:44 pm

      +1 Rogue Trooper on anarchism….interesting….agree with their critique of Capitalist State ….but not with their views on not voting

      • Rogue Trooper 13.1.1
        17 September 2013 at 7:06 pm

        Vote? Yes! Belong to a party if it meets needs for authenticity ; I will, what’s $5?
        Being John Malkovich fan and all that. haha 😀 (it’s all-comers time again, politically, I mean 😉 ).
        Stable anyone?

      • Rogue Trooper 13.1.2
        17 September 2013 at 7:10 pm

        btw, Ripley’s Game 😉

  14. Rogue Trooper 14
    17 September 2013 at 10:51 am

    Kuhn, Thomas (1922-1996), wrote the most influential book in modern philosophy of science, The Structure of Scientific Revolutions (1962). In it he argued that scientists work within and against the background of ‘paradigms’, unquestioned theories and sets of beliefs.Sometimes these paradigms become unstuck, or redundant, and it is necessary that a new one be established. Stimulating, and controversial to Kuhn’s position (in addition to Polanyi’s claims of plagiarism), is his central claim that there can be no strictly logical reason for paradigm change; like political revolutions 😉 , partisans argue in a circular fashion from within their own camps. This claim was an anathema to traditional rationalists like Popper, for whom science is the apotheosis of sound and logical defensive thought (wonder where sarin and VX fit into that equation).
    Paradoxically, however, both Kuhn and Popper are evolutionary epistemologists, seeing essential analogies between their (quite different) views on scientific change and the evolution of organisms.
    G.Gutting, Paradigms and Revolutions :Notre Dame, Indiana, 1980.

    “her father was a Grand Wizard in the KKK”- Iced T.

    • Chooky 14.1
      17 September 2013 at 2:50 pm

      Rogue Trooper….+1….again very interesting on ‘evolutionary epistemology’…paradigm change, rationality and scientific revolution…..

      ….maybe ideas are alive like viruses?….(at a deep , deep level…ha ha?)

  15. thatguynz 15
    17 September 2013 at 1:18 pm

    CV / DtB (in particular), Have you guys seen this? Not anything you probably haven’t read countless times elsewhere but interesting to see it all laid out in one article 🙂

    http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/larry-summers-and-the-secret-end-game-memo

    • Colonial Viper 15.1
      17 September 2013 at 1:25 pm

      Ahhh thank you, that nicely fleshes out what I have already come across. The elite enrich themselves, and tens of millions of ordinary people pay.

      This should warn us of the kind of shit the TPPA is likely full to the brim of.

      • thatguynz 15.1.1
        17 September 2013 at 1:39 pm

        Fully agree. Have a sniff around some of his other articles too – he manages to dig up the odd fillip of information that I haven’t previously seen or had context of. Likewise Matt Taibbi (although I don’t much share his political views).

        Cheers.

      • Tracey 15.1.2
        17 September 2013 at 2:36 pm

        its a 19th century aristocracy with people like Key in the big house

    • Tracey 15.2
      17 September 2013 at 2:44 pm

      truth???

      • thatguynz 15.2.1
        17 September 2013 at 3:53 pm

        Truth??? Well it certainly aligns with everything else that I have been following/reading/researching for the last few years and IMHO Greg Palast has been pretty reliable.

        YMMV of course but such are the joys of critical thinking 🙂

    • muzza 15.3
      18 September 2013 at 7:26 am

      Mike Moore , knows nothing about all this , obviously, and neither did Helen /sarc!

      Robert Rubin is John keys handler, among others.

  16. Democracy 16
    17 September 2013 at 1:27 pm

    Yep its going to be good we get our country back next election and the fascist austerity mongering thieving national party will be gone for good
    First job to get the 1% to pay the 7 billion in tax they owe the rest of us so we can own what we’ve built since the beginning of time
    And jail these so called elected officials who ruin this country with their back room deals
    We need a system that will scare the powerful straight and make them personally accountable. Too much has happened in this country that has lead it on the rotten path to where we are now by politicians who have abused the offices the administer
    And their estates should be liable as well

    PM gone by the pm ?

    • Chooky 16.1
      17 September 2013 at 1:59 pm

      +1 Democracy

    • Tracey 16.2
      17 September 2013 at 2:37 pm

      a leadership change is a start, without hard work and some luck some folks are going to be very disappointed. no fait accompli here.

    • srylands 16.3
      17 September 2013 at 3:04 pm

      “First job to get the 1% to pay the 7 billion in tax they owe the rest of us so we can own what we’ve built since the beginning of time

      Dear crazy person:

      The 1% is what keeps the government fiscally afloat. You know so you can get your welfare check each week.

      We don’t owe you shit.

      • blue leopard (Get Lost GCSB Bill) 16.3.1
        17 September 2013 at 3:15 pm

        Srylands,

        This is very sad, that have taken to write letters to yourself publicly to remind yourself of the mantra you have been brainwashed to believe in order to uphold the failed political views that you support.

        Wouldn’t it be easier to revise your views and base them on what has occurred in the last few years?

      • Colonial Viper 16.3.2
        17 September 2013 at 3:27 pm

        The 1% is what keeps the government fiscally afloat. You know so you can get your welfare check each week.

        Wrong as usual, shitlands. It’s actually the government which keeps the 1% afloat. By not taxing capital, by not closing tax loop holes, by allowing asset price speculation and by tolerating rentier behaviour.

        Put another way, if the 1% want their social license to operate to continue, they better sort out their own more sociopathic members and demonstrate a little more solidarity and community with everyone else.

      • fender 16.3.3
        17 September 2013 at 3:31 pm

        “We don’t owe you shit.”

        Right you are, it’s the IRD you owe it to.

        • blue leopard (Get Lost GCSB Bill) 16.3.3.1
          17 September 2013 at 4:03 pm

          or,

          “we don’t owe you shit”

          No, you’ve given ‘us’ enough, thanks, time for ‘us’ to give it back.

      • Tracey 16.3.4
        17 September 2013 at 3:32 pm

        LOL @ you pretending to be in the 1%… apirational maybe but not actual…hence being led around by the nose by the 1% and their reps dangling the carrot of breaking into the 1% under your nose. They laugh at you more than I do.

        Remember three weeks ago when you said you didnt care enough about politics to get emotional about it, when did that change because you’ve been quite aggressive and name-cally for a couple of weeks?

      • Murray Olsen 16.3.5
        17 September 2013 at 5:50 pm

        Cleaning their toilets doesn’t make you part of the 1%, SSlands.

        • mac1 16.3.5.1
          17 September 2013 at 7:22 pm

          But cleaning toilets make you one of the 1% who produce most social value! Better than bankers.

          http://www.theguardian.com/business/2009/dec/14/new-economics-foundation-social-value

          Disclaimer: I work as a cleaner.

          • Murray Olsen 16.3.5.1.1
            17 September 2013 at 7:40 pm

            I have worked as a cleaner and know that a cleaner withdrawing their labour is much more effective than an academic. The thing is, SSlands would keep cleaning up their mess in the middle of a strike, all the while thinking he was one of them.
            I meant no disrespect to cleaners, but will take the opportunity to tell a little story. One time, when I was at work in Brazil, a cleaner was in my office and we were chatting about Carnaval and stuff. One of the big professors entered and butted in. I told him “Excuse me, but I’m talking to Conceição.” He was appalled and asked me later what I thought I was doing. I told him I was giving equal value to all human beings, which seemed a bit of a novel concept. It made me a bit of a legend among the cleaners, the maintenance people, the security guards, and the kids from the favela. Even some of the students liked it. More importantly, the cleaners started to question why they were treated like shit on a daily basis.

            • mac1 16.3.5.1.1.1
              17 September 2013 at 10:58 pm

              Good story, Murray. I know you meant no disrespect to cleaners. I understood your point that you were making with Srylands. Indeed, the power elite need to have people like Srylands cleaning up after them whilst persuading these dupes that they are part of the elite.

              It comes out in some working class folk who vote tory because that’s how their betters vote, and should be emulated, as some of the crumbs off the table just might come their way. A form of snobbery, a hope of inclusion by association, a need for security.

              My point was about social value for money paid. Can’t let the 1% think they’re actually doing something useful for humanity, after all.

              My cleaner story involved a mate at Uni who earned money in the evening cleaning at St Andrew’s College. Whilst sweeping out the prep room he noticed a student had made an error in his French homework and pointed it out. The student was amazed that a cleaner could actually know French, and be educated, and even know more than he did. Bill became quite popular in that prep room helping out with the HW- French, German, English.

      • The Al1en 16.3.6
        17 September 2013 at 7:26 pm

        “welfare check”

        “LOL @ you pretending to be in the 1%”

        That’s cheque, mate. 😆

      • Draco T Bastard 16.3.7
        17 September 2013 at 10:55 pm

        The 1% is what keeps the government fiscally afloat.

        No it’s not. The 1% are the ones preventing real development of our society and economy.

  17. captain hook 17
    17 September 2013 at 1:51 pm

    has doncoyote choked on his red sock yet?

  18. mickysavage 18
    17 September 2013 at 2:06 pm

    Question time and Cunliffe’s first question is on Chorus. And in a follow up the Securities Act is mentioned. Interesting …

  19. the sprout 19
    17 September 2013 at 2:20 pm

    here’s another headline in the making from DimPost on Paula Bennett’s contraceptives for beneficiaries farce

    http://dimpost.wordpress.com/2013/09/17/long-term-contraception-for-beneficiaries-revisted/

  21. joe90 21
    17 September 2013 at 2:44 pm

    Diane Ravitch on the hoax that will be introduced next year.

    The money allocated to privately managed charters and vouchers represents a transfer of critical public resources to the private sector, causing the public schools to suffer budget cuts and loss of staffing and services as the private sector grows, without providing better education or better outcomes for the students who transfer to the private-sector schools.

    http://www.salon.com/2013/09/15/diane_ravitch_school_privatization_is_a_hoax_reformers_aim_to_destroy_public_schools/

    • Rogue Trooper 21.1
      17 September 2013 at 7:45 pm

      just in case, this is not in another thread.
      -Nat announce 90M to Partnership Schools.
      +to an offshoot of an existing Private School in Remmers
      +in Mangere East, the Partnership School will not be teaching evolution
      +no guarantee disadvantaged children’s needs will be met
      + the only barrier to privileged migration being geographic location

      -John Gerritsen, RNZ

    • Rogue Trooper 22.1
      17 September 2013 at 3:30 pm

      red cod!

      • fender 22.1.1
        17 September 2013 at 3:37 pm

        “Trish Rea, a spokeswoman for Legasea – which represents recreational fishers – said the changes would hurt mum and dad fishers who fished in inshore areas where 50 per cent of fish caught were below 30cm.”

        Thanx Naaythaan Guuuyyyy,

        What’s happened to the “mum and dad National Party”, oh yeah I forgot….they fulla shite

        • Tracey 22.1.1.1
          17 September 2013 at 3:42 pm

          When national said they want a society that shares, they meant they want a society that buys shares and that’s who they work for.

          • fender 22.1.1.1.1
            17 September 2013 at 3:54 pm

            And that reminds me: what happens when due to unforeseen financial circumstances a purchaser can’t come up with the second instalment for their Meridian shares despite receiving dividends for 18 months, after only paying half the total cost on purchase day?

  23. Rogue Trooper 23
    17 September 2013 at 3:29 pm

    Question Time: 17.9.2013
    Q.1 (on the Commerce Commission and Chorus)
    -Key, the Clown, sooo bitchy; not even funny, hence the ‘canned laughter’ from the Nat benches (Carter The Ringmaster).
    “govt. not going to provide demand-side incentivization re fibre uptake.” (was policy labour adopted under DC as Min. Telecommunications).
    The ‘discussion document “every scenario” excludes Commerce Commission recommendations, ie, Nat are over-riding the regulator.

    Q.3: Russel Norman on the RWSS.
    -Nick Smith did discuss the DOC submission to the Board of Enquiry.
    -avoids responsibility and passes the buck to the Deputy Director General.(this question needed to be asked three times).
    -Thank Goodness for the Sky: into each community a little rain may fall.
    -followed by more circularity (weak man) passes off to Adams (Adams fails to score; maybe a Four-Day meth. binge coming up for her).
    -finally, NS acknowledges DOC’s role in fresh water quality issues; draft document went to the Minister. Russel called their bluff when Brownlee tried to block tabling the ‘draft’; no objection.

    Q.3: essentially, Fed placing downward pressure on emerging economy currencies
    and Syria /Oil

    Q.5: The Sweetener; reductions in ACC levies.

    Q.6: (Chippie looked down in the dumps with the other Chris) 😀

    Q.8: Twyford on housing affordability to Nick Smith who cherry-picked his statistical data (Roost Home Affordability Index; contrast with 2007 and the present) before the increases in inequality.

    Q.9: ‘Vanguard Military School’- says it all really. (although, both Parata and Smith sounded tipsy).

    Q.9: wonder what the Right have to say about the “carving tutors”; % of registered teachers (core curriculum delivery) 100- 79- so on down the line…….

    Q.10: well, even Dunne asserts that environmental matters will be worse under the Minister amy adams (small initials).

    😎

  24. Tracey 24
    17 September 2013 at 3:38 pm

    Has anyone asked PESETA SAM LOTU-IIGA when he will be doing tours of the 1200 homes in his electorate which are for sale under half a mill.

    I know I seem to be picking on him but he promised so much back in 2009

    “Monday, May 11. 2009
    National’s work in Maungakiekie only just begun

    My work in Onehunga has only just begun with my electorate office now up and running says Maungakiekie MP Peseta Sam Lotu-Iiga.

    More than 300 people braved the wind and rain last Friday night to attend the official opening of Sam’s office by Prime Minister, John Key.

    “The Prime Minister said our win in Maungakiekie last year was one of the three great results from the 2008 election. He also said the diverse communities which make up Maungakiekie are the new face of New Zealand.

    “I couldn’t agree with him more. I am committed to working hard for the people of Maungakiekie. I have an open door at my office and want to encourage people passing by to stop and meet the team.

    “I was also honored to have Auckland City Mayor, the Hon. John Banks speak at the office opening. He is right behind my work in securing a positive outcome for the Onehunga Bay restoration project.

    “I want to thank all the people and community groups, including the Maungakiekie Community board, the Onehunga Enhancement Society, and Progressive Panmure Business Association, who came along to celebrate the opening.

    “Together, we can work together to build a strong community. National’s work in Maungakiekie has only just begun. We are here to stay”.
    “

    • tc 24.1
      17 September 2013 at 4:00 pm

      All they need is a hardworking candidate that can take it too the snakey sam and highlight his statements and behaviours, he pretty much got a free ride from the ineffective Beaumont in 08 and 11.

      Sam even put back up the loansharking legislation that beaumont had voted down to which she made no fuss about in town hall debates during the 11 campaign.

      An example of a seat that can be won back by labour with the right candidate.

      They are very effective though at using the parliamentary dosh to poke flyers in the letterboxes on a regular basis.

    • bad12 24.2
      17 September 2013 at 4:47 pm

      Campbell live is going to be having a look at ‘property for sale’ in the Maungakiekie electorate tonight…

  25. Winston Smith 25
    17 September 2013 at 4:20 pm

    Just watched a clip from question…oh dear Cunliffe its too early to be losing momentum just now so best be upping your game or you’ll just make it too easy for JK

    • blue leopard (Get Lost GCSB Bill) 25.1
      17 September 2013 at 4:29 pm

      Oh dear Winston, there goes your grip on reality again.

      Keep up the excellent work, Labour Party caucus.

    • bad12 25.2
      17 September 2013 at 4:49 pm

      41% and falling ain’t quite a definite bye bye Slippery card, 40 tho is definitely the redundancy notice with a convenient map of the way to the exit printed on the reverse…

  26. rod 26
    17 September 2013 at 5:25 pm

    Government ups snapper quota to 7, but will the recreational fishermen swallow it.

    • Murray Olsen 26.1
      17 September 2013 at 5:44 pm

      I’d swallow it, depending on what happens with commercial fisheries.

      • Rogue Trooper 26.1.1
        17 September 2013 at 7:27 pm

        sorta like they say; Paper Fish; Rec. down to 7 and up to 30cm min; Commercial remains at 25cm (heaps of discarded by-catch) A few more hundy tonne for Rec (yet requiring greater discards and so on, sigh.). Observers (cameras?) on all Comm. boats by 2018.
        and then, there is always the local chippie… 😀 (gotta go and research what a ‘nerf’ is).Demonstration effect. Ha.Hilarious.

        • Murray Olsen 26.1.1.1
          17 September 2013 at 7:44 pm

          I hope something effective can be done against dumping, but I won’t be holding my breath with this government. I’d also love to see more marine reserves.

          • Rogue Trooper 26.1.1.1.1
            17 September 2013 at 8:02 pm

            well, with this proposed ‘National Significance’ plan change Board of Freakin’ Enquiry for the RWSS the NActs are ignoring aspects of legislated Fresh Water Management, Coastal Management, and the current RMA, so no need to hold our breaths, there will be f*ck all water.
            (learnt to Wheelie, and so Forth, on those riverbanks, and a few other rites of passage).

  27. North 27
    17 September 2013 at 8:52 pm

    Campbell Live tonight – the Maungakiekie electorate held by selfish, mainchance, self-promoting National Party MP Peseta Sam Lotu-Iinga – the claims he made on TV3’s 3rd Degree last week as to (1) availability and (2) affordability of first home-buyer housing in his electorate:

    It is palpable and indisputable. He was spectacularly wrong on both counts. Not just a little bit wrong, spectacularly wrong.

    There are two stark choices – (a) Sam is so ignorant of the realities in his electorate as to be guilty of recklesslessness/negligence, or (b) he knows the realities but wilfully misrepresents.

    Take your pick. Either way he is unfit and a scab on his people. Oh how ShonKey Python’s much vaunted “higher standards” have cleansed and enhanced NZ politics.

    • karol 27.1
      17 September 2013 at 8:59 pm

      The whole CL segment was depressing to this renter. Property madness is totally out of control. One suburb after another gets taken over by people desperate to pay more than the land’s worth to get their own little patch. Meanwhile the poor are squeezed out of yet more suburbs.

      When will it end?