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Open mike 18/11/2021

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, November 18th, 2021 - 88 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

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Step up to the mike …

88 comments on “Open mike 18/11/2021 ”

  1. vto 1

    This is good stuff, but why does it stop at the arrival of euros in NZ? Surely for a comprehensive NZ history it should go back pre-euro, to how NZ was colonised by the polynesians, why and how they came here, the trials and tribulations in spreading across the country, the conflicts and wars, the new lands, the extinctions, the explorations, the good times and bad.

    The current obsession with just one part of this history – the wars with the english crown – is distorting the full picture and will not result in a "historically aware aotearoa"

    The full picture is fascinating. We should embrace it – warts and all – not just certain parts of it.



    • Alan 1.1

      thumbs up to that

      • Gezza 1.1.1


        The Musket Wars, that drove Waikato iwi into invading Taranaki, pushing some Taranaki tribes to migrate down the Te Ika West Coast into the Kapiti & Wellington areas, the murder & subjugation of the Moriori by one of those Taranaki tribes, the Rampages into Nelson/Marlborough by Te Rauparaha – these are all also part of the history of Kiwiland that should be unashamedly & dispassionately taught.

        As First Nations peoples, Māori iwi were all essentially separate small independent nations in the same way that the US American First Nations were: Apache, Commanche, Kiowa, Cheyenne etc.

        The history of Maori inter-tribal warfare mirrors that of long-established societies everywhere. Europe & UK went thru similar inter-tribal conflcts. Ditto every other continent & large populated Islands. It’s just part of the human condition.

        • RedLogix

          Michael King estimated that between 1800 and 1840 iwi managed to reduce their own population by around 40%. That’s an impressive genocide by anyone’s measure.

          It’s just part of the human condition.

          Yes and no. The human condition is an immensely powerful driver of human affairs but I don't believe it's an implacable monster we cannot negotiate with yes

          • Gezza

            It took less than a generation for Europeans to slaughter each other in huge numbers after the Great War, the first war to industrialise killing.

            Look at what’s going on in the Sahel & other parts of Africa, just to name ine part of the world. We never seem as a species to be able to get away with global peace breaking out for long.

            Too many human apes are Silverback Gorilla equivalents & too many other human apes are forced – or consent – to attak other human apes often for reasons that have nothing to do with food or access to resources for survival.

            The “brute” wiring in the human brain is still way too primitively powerful. It overrides the higher intellect way too easily.

            • RedLogix

              Yup. There is no 'Genocide Olympics' to be won here, everyone reading this understands that human history is littered with atrocities – everywhere.

              But this does not mean progress has not happened either. It's entirely remarkable but usually overlooked fact, that in 2021 the average person is far less likely to die in warfare or violence than at any time in our history ever. We might want to celebrate this a little more than we do.

              It is of course no guarantee of future peace, a constant vigilance is necessary to guard against atrocity – but the progress we have achieved is not nothing. It hints at what we might really be capable of.

              • Blazer

                Do you mean the' average western person'?

                I imagine the average middle eastern person would not…agree.

              • Gezza

                The problem is the world does not want to have a global law: nations can't agree on many things. The UN is in many respects as toothless – when it comes to preventing conflicts – as the League of Nations was. The superpowers and great powers on the SC do as they please.

                Even the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is eschewed by Muslim nations who've signed up to the lesser Islamic version:

                The Cairo Declaration on Human Rights in Islam (CDHRI) is a declaration of the member states of the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) adopted in Cairo, Egypt, on 5 August 1990, (Conference of Foreign Ministers, 9–14 Muharram 1411H in the Islamic calendar) which provides an overview on the Islamic perspective on human rights, and affirms Islamic sharia as its sole source. CDHRI declares its purpose to be "general guidance for Member States [of the OIC] in the field of human rights".

                This declaration is widely acknowledged as an Islamic response to the United Nations' Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR), adopted in 1948. It guarantees some, but not all, of the UDHR and serves as a living document of human rights guidelines prescribed for all members of the OIC to follow, but restricts them explicitly to the limits set by the sharia. Because of this limit, the CDHRI has been criticized as an attempt to shield OIC member states from international criticism for human rights violations, as well as for failing to guarantee freedom of religion, justifying corporal punishment and allowing discrimination against non-Muslims and women.

            • Patricia Bremner

              No Gezza the gorilla eats greens and is a vegetarian. Chimpanzees our nearest kin hunt and kill for meat.

              • tc

                Chimps can be very dangerous. Smart, aggressive and resourceful.

                Zoos pair them with the wildcats etc in terms of the threat and security required to mitigate.

        • Tricledrown

          Many signed peace treaties that were ignored by invaders as well.colonizers claiming to bring civilization were just raping and piliging and demonising indigeonous people as inferior.

    • RedLogix 1.2

      Yes that's a good framing vto. Historical awareness is something you tend to gain with maturity and age, but selective awareness usually serves another purpose altogether.

      • AB 1.2.1

        Selective awareness is of course a bad thing. It might be worse though to believe that one's self is not guilty of it.

      • Stephen D 1.2.2

        I suspect that many teachers will take the new curriculum as a guide.

        Most will focus on their own rohe. If that includes the Musket Wars, Te Rauparaha's atrocities, as well as colonial devastation, so be it.

  2. Gezza 2


    Week old baby pukeko, Jojo, and her family, on a sunny Autumn morning in North Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand (Kiwiland)

  3. tc 3

    Dogs barks at passing car….in other news hosk wants a royal commission.

    • Gezza 3.1

      What on?

      And is he offering to pay for it?

      • Pete 3.1.1

        According to the headline I won't click on it's to be into "our terrible Covid response."

        As is said in Parliament's Question Time, "I reject the premise of the question." That is, there is no "terrible covid response to look into because the response was not terrible.

    • DukeEll 3.2

      it is the type of thing that needs a royal commission. not for hoskings reasons, but to ensure that we are better prepared next time.

    • Sanctuary 3.3

      If the first few paragraphs are any guide he want a royal commission to relitigate the 2017 election result. GET OVER IT MIKE.

      • tc 3.3.1

        Gotta keep those attack lines current for his paymasters.

        • Tricledrown

          Stephen Bannon has said to destroy the opposition baffle them with mountains of BS. Troll the Democrats into oblivion.

          Hosking NZs Bannon the bullying BSer.

          Looks like that's happening here even on this site with tag team trolling.Their is a pattern of Trolling by a few players who's job it is just to continually wind up the left.

  4. Anne 4

    My understanding is: a 'review' of the government's handling of the Covid pandemic is already underway. That would be a good start, followed by a full-scale inquiry if it was deemed necessary to clear up suspicion and innuendo one way or the other.

  5. francesca 5



    Seems like we're about to scrap sex segregation in sport

    This will affect a few women's sporting careers

    • Tricledrown 5.1

      Looks like the male hormone is undermining the female hormone.

      Why not just have a separate category

    • weka 5.2


      Transgender women should no longer be required to reduce their testosterone levels to compete in the women’s sport category, new International Olympic Committee guidelines have suggested.

      The new IOC framework, which replaces its 2015 guidelines, also concludes there should be no presumption that trans women have an automatic advantage over natal women – a controversial view that reverses the IOC’s previous position.

      However the IOC says ultimately it is up to individual sports to decide their rules – and they can still impose restrictions on trans women entering the female category if needed to ensure fair and safe competition.

      Such decisions, it adds, should be based on “robust and peer-reviewed science … which demonstrates a consistent, unfair and disproportionate competitive advantage and/or an unpreventable risk to the safety of the athletes.”

      My bold. IOC are gutless and are handing the problem on.

      • weka 5.2.1

        I'm sure there is a dark parody to be done here. Men are no longer to be considered a specific sexual or physical violence threat to women. There should be no presumption that men have an automatic physical advantage over natal women.

        • Pingao

          If that were true ( that men cannot be presumed to have a physical advantage over women) we should do away with men's and women's sports altogether. Also why not get rid of other classes in sport as well such as weight classes and age classes? And anybody should be able to take whatever hormone or testosterone treatments they like and still compete. Clearly I just don't get it.

          • Nic the NZer

            Equestrian events are sports and don't have a separate male/female category. If your the IOC you also need to account for outliers so a blanket rule of assuming advantage can force these exceptions to adjust, even if its nearly always true. And I don't have any idea how male rhythmic gymnasts fit into this (are there any?).

            This document is probably badly worded but pushing the decision down to sports federations is a good decision.

            • weka

              but pushing the decision down to sports federations is a good decision.

              How so? Not sure you are wrong, but would like to hear your thinking.

              (and the IOC are still gutless).

              • Nic the NZer

                Each sport has and will have different rules, traditions and requirements so ultimately the decisions must rest with them how they define a sporting sub category. The IOC can't define a blanket rule because there will be exceptions, and the blanket rule of testosterone limits was not a good one.

                I also think Ross makes some good points about describing the framework inside which each code should define those specifics.

                Its also a more democratic structure, where the activism is setup to take over a structure from the top-down. I don't think a lot of the people cheering this activism on give a toss about sport and how its run anyway and don't participate in it. While the discussion was happening over Rugby and Woman's Rugby codes there were 0 trans Rugby players identified in NZ anyway (and NZ Rugby is able to decide separately to World Rugby). But the question comes up, are we actually talking about sports and sports governance, or is this a theoretical discussion happening online between people who are not interested in playing sports anyway.

                • weka

                  dunno, maybe talk to GC women who play sport or work in the area.

                  IOC could have said there will be a female category and you cannot play in it if you are male (no matter the hormones and surgery you choose). Intersex issues can be dealt with in addition to that (because they're not gender identity issues). That doesn’t preclude individual sporting associations from having their own boundaries and processes. But if x sport says yes to trans women in female sports, how is that fair at the Olympics.

                  • Nic the NZer

                    The rule that you will have a female category and will exclude males from that is presently violated by Equestrian events. It clearly depends on the sport so should be left to the code how that works for each code.

                    If a code can justify (and that includes evidence) that its fair and safe for trans women to be in the female then that would be a reasonable outcome to include them there for social reasons.

          • weka

            If that were true ( that men cannot be presumed to have a physical advantage over women) we should do away with men's and women's sports altogether. Also why not get rid of other classes in sport as well such as weight classes and age classes? And anybody should be able to take whatever hormone or testosterone treatments they like and still compete. Clearly I just don't get it.

            Quite. I think the bit you might not be getting is the politics around gender identity and biological sex. The problem is some people want us to elevate the importance of GI and lower or remove the importance of biological sex. That's a political position.

      • Blazer 5.2.2

        Imo the IOC are quite right and handing the problem on to those who need to deal with it.

    • miravox 5.3

      I don't care much about pronouns – I’ve never liked to use them myself

      I’m not overly bothered by the public toilets issue – I reckon some clever designers are beginning to manage solutions.

      For personal reasons the term 'pregnant people' doesn't bother me

      I don't even know why we still have the problematic M/F check box on our birth certificates

      I very much care if women are losing spaces that enable them to compete fairly and safely in sports, in education, in business and anything else. The IOC is evading their duty to uphold these values. A separate category, or changing the men's category to 'open' would have been fairer.

      I'm thinking that women may as well have their own Olympics because these Olympics have just been closed to them in terms of being the supposed best in the world.

      This sucks. Big Time, imo.

      • Molly 5.3.1

        Public toilets/changing rooms/rape refuges/domestic violence homes are all women's spaces that had the protected characteristic of biological sex.

        Thinking this is just about toilets, ignores the very implications for women in all such spaces. Particularly for women whose religious, cultural, trauma or modesty precludes them from being in such spaces with male-bodied people. By insisting on the inclusion of male-bodied people into women's spaces, we now have excluded groups of women. Just let that sink in.

        There is also a pushback against provision of third spaces, such as in sports. If you look further, there is a demand for total capitulation, not actually provision of alternative spaces. While there may be reasons for this, misogyny, requiring external validation, none of them are justified.

        Those other small adjustments to language may also seem innocuous, but after much thought, I don't think they are. Distortion of language means conversations become all about semantics and meanings, rather than dealing with the issues at hand. Statistics no longer sex-based become meaningless, and we end up with stories like this.

        The IOC have capitulated, and joined the ranks of those unconcerned about the impact on women.

        • miravox

          I agree with you Molly, It's just that I've seen (and used) uni-sex public toilets and changing rooms that still retain the privacy that women need. So I think this issue can be solved.

          I agree totally that rape refuges/domestic violence homes are all women's spaces that had the protected characteristic of biological sex. Transgender women clearly need their own spaces as well and their need is great. It's just that it's incompatible with born women's needs. And that spaces that relate to reproductive health, pregnancy and post-natal spaces are absolutely reserved for females as well.

          I also agree that statistics that are no longer sex-based become meaningless. This conflict has led me to question whether we actually need a sex definition on a birth certificate where that information that is accurate or can be inferred is, these days available in other places. Of course I realise this is just a personal opinion and I'm not going to try and convince anyone else.

          The IOC, on the other hand, is a whole different issue, and I agree that the IOC have capitulated, and joined the ranks of those unconcerned about the impact on women.

          • Anker

            Miravox, most change rooms aren't unisex, they are female or male only. even with unisex cubicles it still opens the doors for biological males to be in what I believe should be women only spaces. This gives them access to do things like plant cameras to film women getting changed. Happened recently in a unisex gym in Auckland. I have also read that women are assaulted more in unisex change and bathrooms.

            Personally I don't want male bodied people in these spaces and I certainly don't want them around girls and teen girls.

            I do think the IOC's decision might be the catalyst that brings things to a head. Around the time of the Olympics there were numberous polls, unscientific I admit, that overwhelmingly showed Kiwis did not support transwomen competing in women's sport. It will be a disaster for women. If you don't think some men who are not really trans at all will use these regulations to enter and win women's sporting competitions, your dreaming. Think of a mediocre male athelete declaring themself non-binary. They were born male and have all the biology that gives men the advantage over women in sport. Why not compete against women! You have got politicians, media cheering you on telling you how brave you are etc, etc! And female atheletes being silenced as was reported by a brave woman weight lifter who spoke up and said they were being told to shut up about Laureen Hubbard. I hope this situation causes the outrage it deserves.

            • miravox

              If you don't think some men who are not really trans at all will use these regulations to enter and win women's sporting competitions, your dreaming.

              I do think some men will do exactly this. That is why I'm entirely against the IOC decision.

              • Anker

                Exactly Mirovox. Sorry I didn't write that well, I didn't mean you personally, I meant if you are one of the people who think that.

          • Molly

            I agree with you Molly, It's just that I've seen (and used) uni-sex public toilets and changing rooms that still retain the privacy that women need. So I think this issue can be solved.

            If it could be solved, with consideration given to the groups of women I mentioned before, I think I still would have some concern. Because I have seen protections and safeguards eroded bit by bit, and I think you do have to have a frank and full discussion before conceding hard-won ground. For me, third spaces fit the bill – given that the majority of transwomen have no surgical or medical transitioning, and are male-bodied.

            • Anker

              Exactly Mirovox. Sorry I didn't write that well, I didn't mean you personally, I meant if you are one of the people who think that.

            • Anker

              I don't want to give much ground on the issue of change rooms.

              The mumber of transwomen in NZ was infitesimal and likely those who had transitioned biology did make use of women's bathrooms, although I remember a student holiday job I had with a women who was likely trans. She never declared she was, but the voice, the hands kind of gave it away. She was well accepted at work and people liked her. I don't recall seeing her in a women's bathroom, but it wasn't an issue as such.

              What is an issue is male who assert their gender identity trumps biological reality and expect women to go along with this.

              Anyone who thinks some men won't use gender self id to access womens spaces for neferious purposes is dreaming.

              • miravox

                It does get me that transwomen feel unsafe in men's toilets, but don't understand that the same thing occurs when women see 'some' transwomen in female toilets. I agree that some men will use take advantage – they do already (hence the obvious fear).

                Honestly, I prefer spaces with closed cubicles and open hand washing spaces that are discrete but easily accessible if someone has a health or security problem. I don't, by any stretch of the imagination think that most of our current loos are safe if shared, but I've been in places that have shared spaces that work really well, I think. I do feel this is an issue that can be resolved by design. Maybe it's not perfect yet, but people are working on this I'm interested to see where this goes.

            • Anker

              So I consider myself to be for want of a better term, an expert on safety in women's change rooms, having experienced what could have been a very serious sexual assault possibly homicide. It happened many, many years ago. And when that young women was raped and murdered in Mt Albert a few months back, I knew exactly how she would have felt the moment she knew she was in trouble. Adrenalin pulsing threw my body, I thought I was going to be murdered.

              One of the things that saved me is my attacker tried to stop me getting the hell out of the change room and told me to "get back in the cubicle". Instinctively, perhaps from the old protests days, I sat down and told him "do it here". This really flawed him I think. If I had of gone back in the cubicle I think I would have been raped, possibly murdered.

              For years I never talked about this attack (I was remarkably unscathed physically but he did punch me in the face). One of the things that I have found deeply shocking in this debate, both on The Standard and in letters I have written to female MP's is nobody who is pushing trans ideology has expressed any sympathy or compassion about what I might feel about women's change rooms and toilets. And how for years I avoided them like the plague. So when men on this site have told me no problem with the toilets or others have trivialized my concerns I feel very angry.

              So my personal experience of women's change rooms with cubicles is its not all good. He obviously wanted me in that cubicle for a reason such as easier to stop me yelling if someone entered the change room

              • miravox

                Hi Anker,

                I'm so sorry you experienced this horror. Please don't think I'm trivialising your concerns. Safety is the major reason why I believe a redesign is necessary. It's rather ironic that the trans debate has brought the issue of safety in public toilets to the fore, when these places always have been dangerous for women and girls. Thank you for disclosing something so personal – please be kind to yourself today.

                • Anker

                  Thanks Mirovox. I do appreciate that and I appreciate where you are coming from re bathroom design. I believe you are correct on that, because what happened to me shows that a public change room can be a really unsafe space. Just like for the poor Mt Albert woman, walking alone in a bushy area was unsafe.

                  And by the way, I don't disagree with anything you said (perhaps other than the cublicle comment as instintively I knew when he ordered me back into the cubicle where I had been changing it wasn't going to go well, that I would be more vulnerable).

                  This attack happened in 1997 btw. A lot of the friends I have made since then don't know about it. I think psychologically I have been left remarkable unscathed, but my fear around public change rooms persisted for sometime. I still do a quick check of cubicles when I find myself in a public toilet on my own. I don't talk about it much. But when I heard about gender self id, I was immedicatly concerned. Frankly it felt like a kick in the guts that my concerns about sharing public change rooms and toilets with male bodied people was trivialized and discounted. Sometimes it has been implied that I am transphobic or a prude. Both are deeply offensive to me. And I see them as tactics to silence women. It is also quite galling when some people claim to care about women who have been murdered in similar circumstances. Maybe they are geniune in their concern, sure they are, but the reality is I have lived through the most frightening experience of realising that I was in deep trouble. When I first saw the guy (who was wearing a mask by the way) I thought I am going to be murdered. I know how that feels. How women who have been murdered would have felt when they realized their fate. That I thought I would be murdered I think made me less scared that he would rape me. That's why I sat down and refused to get back in the cubicle.

                  This is one of the things lead me into the gender ideology issue. The more I read, the more I couldn't believe how reasonably intelligent people were taking on this new ideology without question and a gospel like zeal.

              • Molly

                Hi Anker, thanks for sharing.

                Your perspective about refusing to leave the open area for the private cubicles put voice to one of my concerns about unisex toilets as a solution.

                I agree with your comments on this.

    • Anker 5.4

      No thank you

  6. Gezza 6

    Anybody here taken up Microsoft's offer to download and install Microsoft 11 yet?

    If so, whaddya think of it? cool

    • Stephen D 6.1

      Yep. Couple of weeks ago.

      No major changes. Lots of little ones, some quite good. I like being able to have Chrome tabs along side each other, foe example.

      It doesn't cope well with Google Meet, gets slow. But I think 10 did that too.

    • roblogic 6.2

      I want to, have been waiting for the first load of patches, because like all 1.0 releases it is full of bugs!

      • Brigid 6.2.1

        Why not ditch microsux and install Linux?

        • McFlock

          Tried linux. Needed a degree in rocket surgery to get games and random software fully armed and operational.

          Linus Torvalds had a wee rant about this in 2014. So many different distros require their own bespoke package development, and the different distros tend to break backwards compatability.

          Back in the early 1990s my favorite game was "Wing Commander". Found a legacy copy a few years ago, tried cranking it up and forgot how much command-line code was needed to calibrate the video and sound cards, because WC was just before plug and play standardisation came in. I gave up. That experience reminded me of linux.

          • roblogic

            I like Linux, use it all the time, as long as it stays in its little sandbox in the WSL environment (windows services for linux). 😛

            Most of the time I'm in MacOS, i.e. a proper Unix implementation.

            • Brigid

              The only thing I miss is a really good CAD program and don't find GIMP as intuitive as photoshop.

              • McFlock

                I use gimp – the lack of drawing shapes is an issue, but I cut and paste from office-style programmes lol

        • left for dead

          yes@ Brigid

  7. joe90 7

    Old habits die hard.

    Damien Grant was one of two liquidators of a hydroponics company

    The liquidators of a hydroponics company have been ordered to pay creditors more than $56,000 after charging “not reasonably incurred” fees, a High Court judge has ruled.


    • Patricia Bremner 7.1

      devil A sense of entitlement? He has been convicted of fraud and had to go to court to get his licence, seems the regulator could see this coming?

      • McFlock 7.1.1

        Hey, that's unfair.

        Maybe his good character was offset by a belief that any fee payable to him is reasonable.

        Or maybe he was smoking what a lot of hydroponics enthusiasts are selling, and that inhibited his record-keeping, and he earned every penny but couldn't keep up with the paperwork.

        Or maybe it was a perfectly innocent slip of the pen that overcharged the fees by (checks article) half as much again.

    • miravox 7.2

      Seems his financial ethics are still in the toilet.

      • Blazer 7.2.1

        He learned a good lesson in jail…..be more sophisticated in how you go about ripping people.

  8. Tricledrown 8

    Liquidators should be regulated very rarely do you see low fees for this sort of work. Most insolvencies end up with the liquidators taking nearly all the money/assets leaving nothing or very little for creditors.

  9. Tricledrown 9

    Looks like Covid is spreading to animals wild white tail deer in the US have found to have contracted C19.scary as this could be a new breeding ground for the virus to mutate.

    Keeping MIQ in place is a must if a mutation ends up like Delta it could be more disastrous for our country.

  10. McFlock 10

    Got an annoying bit of spam today: the freeze peach shallot (shallots aren't really "onions") looks to be shilling its membership to uni folk because "The Royal Society is undermining the academic freedom of their own".

    They don't support or oppose intellectually-and-morally-bankrupt pro-covid talk, but think academics should have the right to step well outside their scope of expertise in order to promulgate material that is directly contradicted by the scientific evidence and consensus amongst actual specialists in that area. Ot at least, that's what it looks like the Royal Society might be investigating in regards these two academics.

    Funnily enough, the email doesn't seem to say anywhere that my FSU membership dues or donation will actually be spent assisting those two academics. Probably an oversight /sarc

    • roblogic 10.1

      Seems the FSU has been doing naughty things with their email list. Someone on twitter was also complaining about their spam today.

      • McFlock 10.1.1

        I suspect they've just trawled tertiary education websites for email addresses to plug this academic freedom BS. I sure as heck haven't been signing petitions for them, lol

  11. observer 11

    New Ipsos poll is out. It's much more detailed than the TV polls, going beyond the headlines.

    Asked to rate the gov't out of 10, 54% said 7 or higher. Only 18% said 0-3. So all that foamy frothing about tyrant Cindy represents less than 1 in 5 of NZ voters.

    Asked who was best at 20 different issues (health, housing, climate change etc) National scored … zero. (Labour 17, Greens 2, TPM 1).

    The last poll was 3 months ago and Auckland has been in lockdown since then, and are thoroughly exhausted and exasperated. So the gov't rating from Aucklanders has declined, from 6.5 to 6. You'd think it would be 3 or 4.

    Summary: government obviously down from an election high, opposition still no alternative.

    PDF link:


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