Open mike 19/04/2023

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, April 19th, 2023 - 126 comments
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Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

126 comments on “Open mike 19/04/2023 ”

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  1. Tiger Mountain 1
    19 April 2023 at 8:57 am

    Rupert Murdoch and his filth pump media channel Fox News whimped out at the last possible moment in the Dominion Voting Systems case…
    https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2023/04/fox-dominion-settlement

    It would have been so informative to have seen Rupert, Hannity, Carlson and the rest in the dock. As the linked article alludes to, there was certainly some interesting inside info on Fox revealed in discovery.

  2. Ad 2
    19 April 2023 at 9:30 am

    Anyone who complains about the Green internal antics, just respond "Gaurav Sharma".

    • weka 2.1
      19 April 2023 at 9:50 am

      Kerekere as a Sharma? 👀

      • Nic the NZer 2.1.1
        19 April 2023 at 12:16 pm

        That would be great. The big problems occur if she is a Starmer in my opinion. At 8% the Greens can't afford to lose about half their vote share over a factional dispute.

        • weka 2.1.1.1
          19 April 2023 at 12:29 pm

          any kind of significant internal problems being made public during the election campaign will most likely harm the Green vote, because the MSM would go hard against them, and because people want competency and it's a relatively easy switch from G to L.

          • Incognito 2.1.1.1.1
            19 April 2023 at 1:04 pm

            The Greens always suffer when it comes to public perception. Many people would probably quite easily agree and subscribe to the Greens’ values, principles, and ideology but balk at the idea of voting for and/or the Greens’ candidates. To me, it often sounds like people hating France because there are too many French living there [no offence to France or the French] – it is illogical and irrational. So, it is a perception problem, i.e., a people problem of people having a problem with people. ACT figured this out a long time ago but the NZ Greens are still in their political nappies when it comes to political PR & management – I hope they don’t spit the dummy and start crying in public.

            • weka 2.1.1.1.1.1
              19 April 2023 at 1:25 pm

              what do you think that ACT came up with? Better PR?

              I've never understood why the GP PR and comms has had such holes in it (not being a comms person myself). But part of it is that the Green kaupapa isn't well understood. Current example is them doing an internal investigation into the EK messages and people mocking them for that. But it was clear to me that a) there was more going on than just EK calling CW a cry baby, and b) how MPs, exec, staff, GP members treat each other is a core principle, you can't function in a group with the kinds of processes that the GP uses if you have people being mean to each other or nasty behind their backs.

              • Incognito …
                19 April 2023 at 1:40 pm

                All parties in NZ can learn a thing or two from ACT with respect to PR and political management. Possibly the only exception is Winston Peters. ACT runs a tight ship and keep its nose clean, in case you haven’t noticed.

                • weka …
                  19 April 2023 at 1:51 pm

                  Yes, but I'm asking what they actually do in that regard. Specifically.

                  • Incognito …
                    19 April 2023 at 2:06 pm

                    Consistent well-prepared PR, no internal party conflicts spilling into the open (good Party management), articulate likeable Leader with high public profile, mature Policy platform, keeping powder dry for battles to come (good political management), good rapport with Media, and so on and so forth. Do you follow NZ politics at all??

                    • weka …
                      19 April 2023 at 2:22 pm

                      Do you follow NZ politics at all??

                      Fuck off Incognito. I don't know what your problem is atm, but I was interested in your thinking and thought that I might learn something (which I did).

                    • Incognito []
                      19 April 2023 at 3:00 pm

                      Making naïve statements, IMO, and asking naïve questions, IMO, which I’ve tried to answer anyway to a degree, begs the question what your game is here with others and me. You say you want to foster robust debate. The irony that’s the same dream as I have. So, why are you and I clashing mostly over one singular topic here? Is it because I have fundamental objections to your cause? No, I don’t. Is it because I have picked one side over another? No, I haven’t. Is it because I have ‘a problem’? No, I don’t. You can fill me in, if you wish, in the front- or back-end, I really don’t care anymore where.

                    • weka …
                      19 April 2023 at 3:48 pm

                      seriously, I wanted to know what you saw about ACT that was different from the GP. Maybe I am naive, if by that you mean not knowledgeable. It's not a game. I ask people questions because I want to know what they think. No-one is obliged to answer, and there is nothing wrong with asking.

                      It wasn't about the gender/sex wars, or robust debate on TS. I am in fact interested in how comms works in political parties as I don't know that much about it.

                    • Incognito []
                      19 April 2023 at 11:20 pm

                      I am in fact interested in how comms works in political parties as I don’t know that much about it.

                      I know next-to-nothing except the little I gleaned from reading the news and TS, mainly. This Election Year is going to be a learning moment for me.

                      Perhaps naivity is in the eye of the beholder, which is why I twice added “IMO”.

            • Anker 2.1.1.1.1.2
              19 April 2023 at 2:17 pm

              But maybe the Greens suffer from public perception because of who they are and what they say.

              E.g a polticial party who puts on the social media that they are off to fight some Nazis, when there were no Nazis associated with the Let Women Speak event.

              The Minister of Violence Prevention at a protest where there was violence and intimidation towards women who didn't condemn the violence and then blamed Cis white males for causing all the violence.

              I think this is what Marama and other members of the Greens really think. So citizens hear that and draw their own conclusions.

              Acts MPs performance has to date been faultless (although if anyone wants to correct me on this, please do).

              I am looking for grown ups to run the country, not people who engage is name calling their own ("cry baby") and apparently have a big split in the party

              • Incognito …
                19 April 2023 at 2:30 pm

                … and then blamed Cis white males for causing all the violence. [my italics]

                I think this is what Marama and other members of the Greens really think. So citizens hear that and draw their own conclusions.

                QED

                Have a nice day.

              • weka …
                19 April 2023 at 3:50 pm

                I am looking for grown ups to run the country, not people who engage is name calling their own ("cry baby") and apparently have a big split in the party

                What big split in the party? This is pretty tame stuff by general NZ political party standards. EK looks like a liability, but that's not unusual either (hence the Sharma reference).

                • Anker …
                  19 April 2023 at 4:07 pm

                  RE the "split" I did say apparently.

                  Some people have said that Elizabeth and Riccardo are one faction and they have their supporters in the party and those supporters were who EKs "crybaby" text was meant for.

                  I guess some evidence that supports this was EK s text. At the very least it seems like EK has some level of contempt for CS.

  3. Incognito 3
    19 April 2023 at 9:39 am

    The National Party bonfire of regulations is back and burning bright again promising us that brighter slightly scorched future.

    The farmers don’t just want more labour, they want more cheaper labour with fewer rights & protections than others have.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/131805911/national-promises-to-double-rse-worker-cap-ban-foreign-investment-in-farmtoforestry-conversions

    • Tiger Mountain 3.1
      19 April 2023 at 10:40 am

      Jeez, what about animal exploitation–“winter grazing” in mud–and cleaning up the waterways, talk about priorities.

      And moving from industrial dairy to more plant based?

      • RosieLee 3.1.1
        19 April 2023 at 10:46 am

        Ban palm kernel now.

        • arkie 3.1.1.1
          19 April 2023 at 10:50 am

          “This is no time for half measures. By signing the Declaration on Forest Land Use, New Zealand, as a major consumer of deforestation-linked products like PKE, has committed to doing what it can to protect forest ecosystems. This is a great step forward. Now the Government must put its money where its mouth is and stop the use of PKE in New Zealand for good,” says Teanau Tuiono.

          https://www.greens.org.nz/ban_import_of_palm_oil_by_products

          Party vote Green.

    • tc 3.2
      19 April 2023 at 10:57 am

      Leaky homes, national standards, wadeable waterways, asset sales, ecan, chch rebuild etc

      People just need a reminder of the blighted future the last 2 nat govts delivered with special mention of rortney and shonkys supershity clusterfk.

      • Incognito 3.2.1
        19 April 2023 at 11:17 am

        Nah, voters know which side their croissant is buttered. This will be a cookie-cutter bread & butter election. So, watch out for populist propaganda by demagogues and snake-oil men (and women).

    • Mike the Lefty 3.3
      19 April 2023 at 12:24 pm

      National's bonfire regulations policies were responsible for the leaky houses of the nineties costing many homeowners hundreds of thousands of dollars.

      National acts first and thinks later.

      If it moves deregulate it, if it doesn't sell it off.

      • Incognito 3.3.1
        19 April 2023 at 12:51 pm

        I’m really starting to think that most in National really don’t care, one way or another.

        Politics is or should be a contest of ideas and trying to make a difference, e.g., even something as lofty as leaving the World in a better place. At present, it is anything but like that and rather the opposite. Even so-called ‘progressives’ lose sight & track of the big(ger) picture and let themselves dragged into rabbit holes bogged down by trivial topics and sideshows.

        The bigger problem is that many people have stopped caring or they are caring too much (!) about singular issues that they consider existential to them and mostly them-only. You can see the polarisation kernel right there. All this plays into the hands of the usual ‘suspects’ but as soon as one tries to call this and/or name it for what it is all Hell breaks loose and words & meanings get twisted swiftly to win arguments and control the narrative.

        The external narrative is crucial because it influences our internal narratives and stories we tell ourselves about the World, others, and ourselves. In other words, control the narrative and control the minds, so to speak.

        Personally, the key is detachment, which is hard on a good day, but next to impossible when you’re treading water whilst caught in the middle of fierce shit-storms.

    • bwaghorn 3.4
      19 April 2023 at 4:59 pm

      Can you prove rse workers get less money than a comparable kiwi worker, ??

      • Incognito 3.4.1
        19 April 2023 at 11:12 pm

        By Law the base rates are supposed to be the same as for Kiwis. You know this, don’t you?

  4. ianmac 4
    19 April 2023 at 9:48 am

    USA too has problems with children learning to read.

    About one in three children in the United States cannot read at a basic level of comprehension, according to a key national exam…..

    Science of reading advocates say the reason is simple: Many children are not being correctly taught…..

    A popular method of teaching, known as “balanced literacy,” has focused less on phonics and more on developing a love of books and ensuring students understand the meaning of stories. At times, it has included dubious strategies, like guiding children to guess words from pictures.

    Research shows that most children need systematic, sound-it-out instruction — known as phonics — as well as other direct support…

    https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/16/us/science-of-reading-literacy-parents.html

    • aj 4.1
      19 April 2023 at 11:38 am

      Many children are not being correctly taught….. as well as other direct support…

      Do an increasing number of parents expect schools alone to fully develop literacy and numeracy skill for their children, and don't realise that it's important to support these skills from a very young age at home as well? how important it is to read to them, and help them read, and to bring numeracy into everyday conversation?

      Many working parents are time short and screen time unconsciously becomes an embedded part of parenting, which almost always won't involve improving literacy or numeracy skills.

      If there is one thing I've learnt as a parent and grandparent, it's that learning these skills has to be a partnership between schools and parents.

      • ianmac 4.1.1
        19 April 2023 at 12:27 pm

        When I was teaching Infants to read I used context then chose a word for closer study including the phonics connections. The bottom line was the enjoyment of reading whereas the previous phonic system tended to kill a love of reading. For some it was reading the words but not understanding what the text meant. Sad.

        Most kids learn to read easily but it is true that a small minority do need special specific teaching. Lets not throw out the gains and skills of the good readers for the sake of those who need special help.

  5. Incognito 5
    19 April 2023 at 9:57 am

    Joe Bennett on impersonating Joe Bennett.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/131798336/some-good-news-about-intelligence-artificial-and-otherwise

    I have to confess that I actually quite liked the AI’s writing, but I would say that, wouldn’t I?

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/arts/300855664/photographer-reveals-prizewinning-image-was-aigenerated-turns-down-award

    I did not particularly like that award-winning photo though, which looked fake & false, but I would say that, wouldn’t I?

    • Patricia Bremner 5.1
      19 April 2023 at 6:07 pm

      On the AI photo…. the hands were strange, and mothers put an arm around not on when they are related and close

      It was a soulless depiction. It lacked humanity for me before I read the text, I thought "you must be kidding, the winner??"

      Oh that explains the stiff depiction.!!

  6. tsmithfield 6
    19 April 2023 at 10:09 am

    My wife's sister is over from Australia. She is a teacher over there.

    She was saying that they have a very program proposed by National in that there are similar requirements for minium hours per day to be spent on maths and english.

    Also, parents get regular feedback on how children are progressing according to expected standards.

  7. Shanreagh 7
    19 April 2023 at 10:09 am

    I have clearly not explained myself very well.

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

  8. Incognito 8
    19 April 2023 at 10:14 am

    Without prejudice, I link to this Opinion piece (by a male theology doctorate student at University of Auckland):

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/131801818/whats-up-with-the-obsession-over-other-peoples-gender-identity

    To set the tone and disclose the intention, I strongly believe that the last paragraph should have been the first one:

    By understanding such frameworks, we can move the discussion away from hysteria and fear, towards increased understanding and reconciliation.

    • Molly 8.1
      19 April 2023 at 1:13 pm

      "To set the tone and disclose the intention, I strongly believe that the last paragraph should have been the first one:

      By understanding such frameworks, we can move the discussion away from hysteria and fear, towards increased understanding and reconciliation."

      I agree.

      If this was the first (and last) paragraph, I wouldn't have wasted time reading such waffle from someone with a superficial understanding of what concerns have been raised.

      Not by hysterical fearful people, but by people with a clear understanding of impacts who retain the capacity to say "No", to those who insist they are the arbitrators of kindness, and that everything else is just people saying silly stuff.

      • Visubversa 8.1.1
        19 April 2023 at 1:20 pm

        The main thing Mr Hoban has right is that this belongs in the realms of theology. We don't require others to share our beliefs in various varieties of immortal souls so why should we be required to share beliefs based on the possession of a gendered soul?

        He is certainly familiar with earlier versions of homophobic and misogynistic cults so I am surprised he does not see this one for what it is. But you don't get published for saying that.

        • Molly 8.1.1.1
          19 April 2023 at 1:26 pm

          Second to last paragraph almost got there…

          "Cults, on the other hand, can also refer to a group of people who follow a charismatic leader. This may include religious concepts, beliefs, and practices that can easily turn dark and threatening when followed through to the extreme."

          The charismatic leader doesn't apply though, although the rest does.

          There is an Irish women that wrote well about the religious angle in the UK. I'll see if I can remember her name, and find some of her writings.

          Found her – Colette Colfer:

          https://www.broadsheet.ie/2022/04/26/colette-colfer-a-new-religion/

          People from all these religions and belief systems permitted me to enter their worlds with no compulsion on me to participate or to believe. Yet today, in Ireland, when it comes to gender identity theory, it is becoming difficult to adopt the phenomenological perspective as there is increasing pressure to accept this theory uncritically.

          Although there is no concept of the divine in gender identity theory, there are elements that could be considered religious. There are symbols, chants, flags, parades, and ‘holy’ days. There is a belief in what could be termed transubstantiation where the substance of the body is believed to change from one sex to another. A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul.

          The idea of a heretic or infidel is also relevant. People and organisations who don’t subscribe to gender identity theory, or who publicly criticise or even question it, have been denounced or ostracised, and products and publications boycotted. Detransitioners, who no longer subscribe to the theory, are akin to apostates…

          • Incognito 8.1.1.1.1
            19 April 2023 at 1:35 pm

            The charismatic leader doesn't apply though, although the rest does.

            Your irony is off the scale!

            • weka 8.1.1.1.1.1
              19 April 2023 at 1:40 pm

              Molly means that Hoban's description of the cult is a good fit for gender identity ideology, apart from the charismatic leader bit.

              • Incognito …
                19 April 2023 at 1:42 pm

                One size fits many.

              • Drowsy M. Kram …
                19 April 2023 at 7:42 pm

                Why Sex Is Mostly Binary but Gender Is a Spectrum
                [15 December 2016]
                A short genetic history of one of the most profound dimensions of human identity.

                Re the 'cult' and/or 'religion' of gender and gender identity 'ideology':

                Gender refers to the characteristics of women, men, girls and boys that are socially constructed. This includes norms, behaviours and roles associated with being a woman, man, girl or boy, as well as relationships with each other. As a social construct, gender varies from society to society and can change over time.
                https://www.who.int/health-topics/gender#tab=tab_1

                Imagine 'problematic' self-IDing transgender people didn't exist, then ask:

                Would gender critical folk still be critical of gender and/or gender identity 'ideology'? If so, then why?

                Introduction: TERFs, Gender-Critical Movements, and Postfascist Feminisms [1 August 2022]
                Trans-exclusionary politics is an increasing and increasingly complex phenomenon that has contributed to both the strength of right-wing movements and the strength of cultures of transphobia.

                Would anti-gender folk still look askance at females and males whose behaviours, roles and freedoms/rights didn't align with and partition strictly according to traditional (binary) sex-based divisions? If so, then why?

                Gender is dynamic for all people [14 November 2022]
                This paper has presented three aspects of gender’s dynamism: that the meaning of gender has changed over time; that there are significant cultural differences in the meaning of gender; and that one’s own gender and relationship to it can change, evolve, weaken, and galvanise across a lifetime.

                • weka …
                  19 April 2023 at 7:56 pm

                  Imagine 'problematic' self-IDing transgender people didn't exist, then ask:

                  do you mean

                  1. non problematic self IDing trans people exist, but the problematic ones don't?
                  2. trans people don't exist?
                  3. self ID doesn't exist, but trans people do?

                  Would gender critical folk still be critical of gender and/or gender identity 'ideology'? If so, then why?

                  Gender critical feminists would be, because they already were before gender identity ideology started impacting on our rights. Are you familiar with feminist critiques of gender? The reason is because gender is how the patriarchy controls women. Note that the whole pink for girls and blue for boys is a feature of both the patriarchy and gender ideology (which is another reasons why the latter is considered regressive nonsense).

                  Would anti-gender(ism) folk still look askance at females and males whose behaviours, roles and freedoms/rights didn't align with and partition strictly according to traditional (binary) sex-based divisions? If so, then why?

                  What? GCFs are completely ok with gender non-conformity, many of them are gender non conforming.

                  You seem confused about what the GC objections to gender identity ideology are. Right wing religious objections to transness aren't usually gender critical, because RW religious people usually want to uphold traditional gender roles. GC people fall into two broad camps. Those that object to the impact on women's and children's rights (GCFs and allies), and those that object to queering of culture (people who think that sex is real and matters and that transing kids is abuse). I'm generalising (it's more complex than that), because too many people are referencing the religious right and thinking that's what GC is.

                  • Drowsy M. Kram …
                    19 April 2023 at 8:59 pm

                    do you mean

                    1. non problematic self IDing trans people exist, but the problematic ones don't?
                    2. trans people don't exist?
                    3. self ID doesn't exist, but trans people do?

                    Thanks weka for your questions/options. Noting that my 'problematic' was in inverted commas (trans people being problematic to some people only), I meant (effectively) '2.', since all trans people self-ID, just like everyone else (to some degree, no?) – or perhaps you could answer a good faith question prompted by your good faith questions: Can trans people exist without (personal) self-identification?

                    Are you familiar with feminist critiques of gender? The reason is because gender is how the patriarchy controls women.

                    See the paragraph (anti-gender folk looking askance at adopting behaviours/roles out of kilter with traditional sex-based assignments) after my second question. My answer to my second question would be 'No', because (as you rightly observe), patriarchal anti-gender folk want to control more than just the ability transgender people to self-ID.

                    I asked two questions, the first relating to the perspectives of gender critical folk, and the second relating to the perspectives of anti-gender folk. You began your response to my second question (about anti-gender folk) with a reference to GC feminists – wouldn't that response be better suited to my question about GC perspectives?

                    You seem to believe that I'm confused, and not for the first time. I can only assure you that I don't feel confused, and hope that you will accept my personal assurance in this regard. I would also like to assure you that many comments on TS relating to these 'problematic' issues serve to clarify my personal thoughts on gender, gender-critical, gender ideology, and gender ideology-critical PoVs.

                    • Molly …
                      19 April 2023 at 9:31 pm

                      I'm also confused, but I think it may be because your idea of gender critical is not related to a gender critical perspective, but because you think gender critical is only related to criticism of gender ideology, and not a separate stand-alone perspective.

                      With that in mind, are you able to just ask your two questions simply without reference to any links?

                      (Because they seem to diffuse rather than focus your queries)

                    • weka …
                      19 April 2023 at 9:42 pm

                      ok, but who here would find trans people 'problematic'? I don't know why you would need to write it that way if what you meant was trans people generally.

                      Let me try something.

                      You said,

                      Imagine 'problematic' self-IDing transgender people didn't exist, then ask:

                      Would gender critical folk still be critical of gender and/or gender identity 'ideology'? If so, then why?

                      which could be rewritten as,

                      Imagine trans people didn't exist, then ask:

                      Would gender critical folk still be critical of gender and/or gender identity 'ideology'? If so, then why?

                      to which I would still say, yes feminists have a critique of gender that is outside the sex/gender wars. But also, if trans people didn't exist there would be no critique of gender identity ideology because GII wouldn't exist.

                      I'm not sure that all people do self-ID btw. But where you ask,

                      Can trans people exist without (personal) self-identification?

                      I would say it depends what you mean by trans people. If you mean gender non-conforming people, then yes, they exist irrespective of self-ID. If you mean people with gender dysphoria, then again, yes although I suspect that gender dysphoria is a consequence of living in a society that punishes GNC, so I'm not convinced dysphoria is inherent in humans.

                    • weka …
                      19 April 2023 at 9:53 pm

                      Are you familiar with feminist critiques of gender? The reason is because gender is how the patriarchy controls women.

                      See the paragraph (anti-gender folk looking askance at adopting behaviours/roles out of kilter with traditional sex-based assignments) after my second question.

                      honestly, I can't follow all your quotes. I just ignore them and read your own words. Trying to go back now and figure out what you mean is impossible. Also, one of your quote/links is basically gender ideology, so I'm not going to accept it as a reference at face value.

                      My answer to my second question would be 'No', because (as you rightly observe), patriarchal anti-gender folk want to control more than just the ability transgender people to self-ID.

                      I asked two questions, the first relating to the perspectives of gender critical folk, and the second relating to the perspectives of anti-gender folk. You began your response to my second question (about anti-gender folk) with a reference to GC feminists – wouldn't that response be better suited to my question about GC perspectives?

                      Here are the two questions

                      1. Would gender critical folk still be critical of gender and/or gender identity 'ideology'? If so, then why?
                      2. Would anti-gender folk still look askance at females and males whose behaviours, roles and freedoms/rights didn't align with and partition strictly according to traditional (binary) sex-based divisions? If so, then why?

                      Which I would rewrite as,

                      1. Would gender critical folk still be critical of gender and/or gender identity 'ideology' if trans people didn't exist? If so, then why?
                      2. Would conservative people still look askance at GNC people? If so, then why?

                      If I were answering them, my GCF would inform both questions.

                      You seem to believe that I'm confused, and not for the first time. I can only assure you that I don't feel confused, and hope that you will accept my personal assurance in this regard.

                      You use the term anti-gender when referring to religious conservatives (If I have understood). That's one thing that is causing confusion. The anti-gender people are the feminists. The religious conservatives are pro-gender/pro-gender roles, and anti-trans or anti-GNC.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      19 April 2023 at 11:11 pm

                      ok, but who here would find trans people 'problematic'?

                      @weka – another good question. Please accept an assurance that I would be amazed indeed if anyone "here would find trans people 'problematic'". I didn't, however, intend my hypothetical ("Imagine…") to be limited to Standardistas, but can see how you might have taken it that way.

                      Can trans people exist without (personal) self-identification?

                      I would say it depends what you mean by trans people.

                      "Trans people" is shorthand for 'transgender people', meaning (to me) people "whose gender identity or gender expression does not correspond with the sex they were assigned at birth." I would like to rewrite my question as: Are there trans people who don't (self-)identify as trans? That question is relevant to your comment:

                      I'm not sure that all people do self-ID btw.

                      On reflection, that's certainly possible. I know hardly any trans people personally, so would be interested in evidence that there are adult trans people who do not self-identify as trans – perhaps because they are either unaware, or in denial ("in a society that punishes GNC") about that aspect of their identity, just as some homosexuals and members of other minorities (continue to) deny various aspects of their identity, and rarely to the good of themselves or others, imo.

                      I'm a stale male, and yet aspects of my identity continue to be revealed to me – some good, some not so good, and some (fortunately and/or unfortunately) subject to change. I would guess that most, if not all people who know they are trans and are not in denial would (self-)identify as trans, but that's just an assumption.

                      The anti-gender people are the feminists.

                      So some feminists are anti-gender (hopefully not too many?) and some feminists are anti-gender stereotypes, and some feminists are gender critical, and some feminists are pro-gender, and some feminists are pro-trans, and some feminists might be trans activists (possibly not to many).

                      The religious conservatives are pro-gender/pro-gender roles, and anti-trans or anti-GNC.

                      It seems that your definition of “pro-gender/pro-gender roles” is in close alignment with Wikipedia’s definition of anti-gender! So many factions; so much friction.

                  • Drowsy M. Kram …
                    19 April 2023 at 9:51 pm

                    Molly, anyone can opine on what they think I think, but on this occasion, 'no cigar'. I accept that GC perspectives can be broader than simple criticism of gender ideology, assuming that's what you meant – all we have (in this forum) is our words.

                    Regarding your request, it is regratable that the links make my queries appear more diffuse to you, but, if it's all the same to you, I will retain the right to include links that I consider relevant to my comments, as they help to focus my mind.

                    If my queries appear too diffuse, then maybe just scroll on by. I know I do.

            • Molly 8.1.1.1.1.2
              19 April 2023 at 3:55 pm

              Many of us are aware of the "This may include religious concepts, beliefs, and practices that can easily turn dark and threatening when followed through to the extreme."

              A mild example from today:

              https://twitter.com/JohnJamesNI/status/1648285053271650304?s=20

          • Shanreagh 8.1.1.1.2
            19 April 2023 at 4:06 pm

            Good points Molly & Visubversa.

            I enjoyed the links to Colette Colfer and more critiques on the 'gendered soul'

            To be kind to this author I am assuming that the article he submitted was a much better version than what has appeared in Stuff. It may have been cut down and had a great deal of persuasive theological material removed. As it is is skeletal and disjointed.

            I was intrigued that the article was grasping at straws and, to me, did not seem particularly well based on theological scholarship. It was not knowledgeable on some items on which he has based a case eg Nazis/neo nazis.

            It is lightweight in comparison with some of the informative links that we were treated to during the earlier discussion on Womens issues etc.

            It also missed the elephant in the room, ie what the visit of KJM was all about. That is women's issues and the female response, based in antiquity, to having a concern about unknown people, particularly men in areas that they should not be.

            Straws

            • Cleanliness purity idea, though women in ages past have been classed as 'needing cleanliness' because of menstruation and childbirth/products of childbirth*. So we get this 'the debate is linked to distorted beliefs about religious purity, cleanliness, and sexual propriety (specifically, the belief that unmarried men and women should be kept separate when naked)' So we are pulling a cleanliness/purity card and that is the reason for concern. So people are concerned about transgenderism because of purity issues?
            • Churching of women – now regarded as a celebration of childbirth and welcome back to the church.
            • Nazis link. This linking has been rebutted/explicitly denied on many occasions. As Jo Bartosch said on The New Flesh interview with Ricky and Jon https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUhUlpAl-gs (about 2.5-3mins in) the concept of Nazis has moved from 'guilt by association' vis a vis the Nuremberg trials to 'guilt by proximity' as per Melbourne etc with neo nazis standing around. She mentions how Moira Deeming has been hounded because she attended a gathering that Neo-Nazis had gatecrashed.

            The missing elements……the concerns of women. I have always believed that the Christian church in relation to its views and treatment of women can be a force for good or a force to be used against women. Some churches allow women to minister and to give Holy Communion. Others do not while others maintain an intrusive concern about the sexuality of women.

            But having missed the point of what KJM is all about the author has missed an opportunity to actually bring some theology into it.

            What is the theology around grossly trying to change those that God has made in his own image?

            Genesis 1:26-28 announces that human beings are made in the image of God:

            New International Version

            27 So God created mankind in his own image,
            in the image of God he created them;
            male and female he created them.

            People who seem to be either man or woman

            Adam and Eve are the Bible's first man and first woman.

            According to the Bible (Genesis 2:7), this is how humanity began: "The Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." God then called the man Adam, and later created Eve from Adam's rib.

            or do we drop all this Old Testament stuff and look at the often kinder, calmer New Testament?

            Matthew 7:12. "So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets." The Good News: This is literally "the golden rule" of the Bible. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

            This did not seem to have been honoured by the protestors.

            So bearing mind that the arguments made by women are about women's safe spaces is there guidance in the scriptures? I have not been able to find any links but there are any number about modesty. and the expectation that modesty will be maintained by a woman.

            This is a good precis on some of the issues about opinions….not all from the NT.

            https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/thabiti-anyabwile/12-strategies-accepting-one-another-opinions-differ/

            This one I think is important not only from a theological point of view. It is apt here as the author has not done as is suggested. Rom. 14:5

            Again, the Bible does not require one side to change their opinion and join the other side in “disputable matters.” What the Bible requires is that we know what we’re talking about. “Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.” If we’re going to have an opinion, make sure it’s an informed and sound opinion. Opinions can be and often are wrong; so we need to get things right and settled through sound reason as best we can.

            The author has not correctly interpreted the reasons for KJM's visit or the concerns of the women who sought to see and share ideas with her. So it does not meet this criteria. 'If we’re going to have an opinion, make sure it’s an informed and sound opinion'.

            Instead he seems to be labelling KJM and the people who wanted to see & listen to her as a cult? While people who wish to deny their children a childhood by transitioning them body and mind instead of safe guarding them (another concern of KJM's) are not mentioned. Why is this?

            I would have liked possibly** to see a theology based view on transgenderism or fundamentally changing the image of the God body we have been given, and the events of 25/3 from a women's perspective. This article by Russell Hoban is not it.

            ** but then the Bible/psalms/prayers can be brought to bear & give an opinion on so many ideas, 'all things to all men etc' that perhaps something wishy washy as we have been presented with is all we can expect.

            • Shanreagh 8.1.1.1.2.1
              19 April 2023 at 4:23 pm

              *Churching of women – now regarded as a celebration of childbirth and welcome back to the church.

              For some reason the linking * in the Straws presumably because it was at the start of a sentence has been transformed into a dot. I will resist making some pun about transforming, transubstantiation etc.

            • roblogic 8.1.1.1.2.2
              19 April 2023 at 10:44 pm

              I would have liked possibly** to see a theology based view on transgenderism or fundamentally changing the image of the God body we have been given, and the events of 25/3 from a women's perspective. This article by Russell Hoban is not it.

              Exactly so Shanreagh. There is definitely scope for such an argument from the biblical text and some pretty substantial currents in philosophy.

              Despite modern claims that God's pronouns are He/Him, in the original OT languages (Hebrew/Aramaic) YHWH is not gendered (AFAIK). And there are passages like this in the NT

              There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

              Galatians 3:28

              At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

              Matthew 22:30 (dupe of Mark 12:25)

              As for philosophical arguments, the gender movement has really obvious parallels to Gnosticism, which has a long history as a heresy that's been associated with Christianity since the year dot. It's an esoteric collection of "hidden" beliefs only available to "enlightened" souls, the most common of which is that the body is crude material prone to sin and decay, but our true essence is beings of light and spirit. It's an easy mistake to make and many Christians hold some variation of this belief about human nature.

              (Other Bible scholars will tell you that Gnostic dualism is deeply contradictory to the Hebrew understanding of human nature, which is embodied (physicalism), embracing life and celebrating its joys, and when we die we "fall asleep", we don't float off to Heaven. But we look forward to a day of resurrection when the final trumpet sounds)

          • Molly 8.1.1.1.3
            19 April 2023 at 5:18 pm

            Just found out there is a follow up to this Broadsheet article.

            It was submitted and accepted for publication in The Irish Times, but was pulled without explanation:

            https://twitter.com/ColetteColfer/status/1607384828638539776?s=20

      • Incognito 8.1.2
        19 April 2023 at 1:33 pm

        Some people are not allowed to bring their own understandings and views to ‘the debate’, that much is clear. Tightly controlled views and expressions of opinion don’t belong on a blog site that aims at robust debate that is inclusive.

        Your response was textbook and reminiscent of Bomber over at TDB. I’m actually surprised that you decided to be triggered and read ‘such waffle’, but this was perhaps the small step needed to climb on your high horse for knocking down another person’s opinion with which you don’t agree. I note that you haven’t addressed one single thing in the Opinion piece, only denigrating it.

        Your last sentence was a real doozy – did you have assistance from ChatGPT-4, by any chance? \sarc

        • weka 8.1.2.1
          19 April 2023 at 1:48 pm

          how has anyone not been allowed to bring their own understandings and views to the debate? You made a comment, others have responded. Does the fact that Molly was blunt and critical mean you can't bring your own understandings forward? How so?

          I note that you haven’t addressed one single thing in the Opinion piece, only denigrating it.

          She did address things in the piece. She said that it presented superficial concerns of the issues for GC people (that's being kind imo, I think the piece is very skewed by both ideology and ignorance to the point of missing what the whole thing is about).

          She also pointed out that the concerns have been raised by people who know what they are talking about. Characterising them as fearful and hysterical really was getting off to a bad start.

          The ideas about purity and such are interesting, but it's hard from a GCF position to respond to them seriously when women have been written out of the debate. in the piece itself. I mean, I could write a whole piece about western purity and the relegation of female to dirty and male as pure and how this has impacted on women for 500 years, but it's still having to be on the defensive because of the framing that piece used.

          • Incognito 8.1.2.1.1
            19 April 2023 at 2:14 pm

            Nope, it was a typically defensive comment with some generic ‘criticism’ and the default dismissal with a few disparaging remarks. Nothing new there.

            Re. the purity stuff, this was clearly to provide context to “the crew who line up to sail with them” and understand why and where those are coming from and associated with (and interested in) the GC stuff.

          • Shanreagh 8.1.2.1.2
            19 April 2023 at 4:31 pm

            The ideas about purity and such are interesting, but it's hard from a GCF position to respond to them seriously when women have been written out of the debate. in the piece itself. I mean, I could write a whole piece about western purity and the relegation of female to dirty and male as pure and how this has impacted on women for 500 years, but it's still having to be on the defensive because of the framing that piece used.

            Snap Weka. Out of my long piece I removed a long link to the history of churching of women after childbirth tracing the need to bring them into the church because of uncleanliness (10th Century) to now celebrating safe & happy childbirth etc. The purity argument as advancef d by Hoban was not very convincing.

        • Molly 8.1.2.2
          19 April 2023 at 1:49 pm

          Hey Incognito

          The highlighted paragraph in your comment was a conclusion reached with no supporting evidence in the article. The use of hysterical and fearful, by the author indicate a certain bias and predetermined outcome, arrived at through meandering through visits to other disconnected ideas.

          Hence: waffle. You might consider it a more nutritious food for thought. Our dietary needs on this may differ.

          For something I consider palatable, I posted another article on the same topic and with the same religious framework in my response to visubversa:

          .https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-19-04-2023/#comment-1946277

          (Read it, scroll on, critique or ridicule it as you wish. Forcefeeding is not an intention.)

          "Your last sentence was a real doozy – did you have assistance from ChatGPT-4, by any chance? \sarc"

          No. It was a example of personal humour.

          To be clear, women who raise issues of concern should not be assumed to be hysterical, fearful, speakers of silly stuff or some form of artificial intelligence.

          (In regards to the latter, we are the real deal…nothing artificial at all.) wink

          • Incognito 8.1.2.2.1
            19 April 2023 at 2:02 pm

            Anybody who raises any issue of concern in good faith and with genuine interest in robust debate that is inclusive and open-minded ought to expect a response without prejudice but not necessarily a warm welcoming hug. I can’t see it.

            • Molly 8.1.2.2.1.1
              19 April 2023 at 3:46 pm

              I am aware you are unable to see good faith on this issue.

              For me, that seems obvious from your exchanges here.

              However, many will continue to voice their concerns, and perhaps one day you will understand what they are, and see how consistently people offered them in good faith and prepared for the robust debate you seek.

              At present, I see such good faith comments receiving derision, redirection and dismissal. Very little understanding of what is being said, little to no links to robust evidence, and/or deferrals often to lightweight opinion pieces.

              For instance:

              More and more evidence is accumulating about the harm of the social and medical transition of minors, that we provide here in NZ under the protocol of "affirming healthcare"?

              This approach has no clinical evidence base, and are significant (and often permanent) interventions.

              Do you have concerns about this situation at all?

              • arkie …
                19 April 2023 at 4:26 pm

                affirming healthcare … has no clinical evidence base

                This is an unevidenced assertion but let's assume you're correct, what alternative treatment protocol does the gender critical movement think should be used in the treatment of trans youth?

                • Shanreagh …
                  19 April 2023 at 4:44 pm

                  Well for a start you have made a presumption that the youth are trans. Molly stated 'minors.'

                  Jordan Peterson. whose views I have had many a long tussle with in times past has a very clear and thoughtful interview with a woman who has detransitioned. His professional knowledge about best practice in this issue is clear.

                  He said about 25 hours of counselling over 6 months should be the minimum for those showing the twin 'illnesses' of

                  gender dysphoria and psychiatric illness notably depression.

                  These two often go hand in hand and if the maxim of 'first do no harm' is to be followed then counselling for depression should be commenced.

                  I read figures that if the 'first do no harm' proponents treat children without surgery or puberty blockers that about 2/3 when grown are same sex attracted.

                • Molly …
                  19 April 2023 at 5:12 pm

                  affirming healthcare … has no clinical evidence base

                  It was a deliberate decision not to put too much into a comment that was an invitation.

                  There is a lot of information regarding the lack of clinical evidence for the affirming healthcare model.

                  I have OIA'd the Ministry of Health for their evidence base, who said they follow the guidelines of PATHA and WPATH.

                  PATHA is based on WPATH, so that organisation is a good starting point. AAP is another, and so is the Endocrine Society.

                  Many countries – follow the guidance of these three organisations.

                  WPATH – World Professional Association Transgender Health

                  WPATH is advocacy based in their guidelines – not evidenced based. Many of their contributors are not medical or research professionals. Eg. Susie Green – Former CEO of Mermaids.

                  Current WPATH – Standards of Care 8 released last year

                  https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/26895269.2022.2100644

                  The state of Alabama (like many countries) is reviewing the care for minors and as part of court injunction when they passed a Bill that ceased affirmative care, testimony was given from the three organisations listed above. When they were asked for evidence, they refused:

                  On Monday, Burke ruled in favor of the state on a motion made in March related to the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH)

                  In their arguments, plaintiffs have repeatedly cited information from The American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP), WPATH and the Endocrine Society to validate their claims.

                  All listed organizations offer full support for "gender-affirming care" and encourage "social transitioning" at any age and medical transitioning in early and late teens.

                  When the state requested discovery on internal documents from those groups, the organizations filed a motion to quash.

                  A subpoena has been issued, so it'll be worthwhile to see what is produced:

                  http://files.eqcf.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/219-D-Response-to-Motion-to-Quash-Subpoenas.pdf

                  AAP – American Academy of Pediatrics

                  The state of Florida has also had to subpoena AAP to get their evidence for their recommendations.

                  https://dailycaller.com/2023/01/27/american-academy-pediatrics-florida-lawsuit-transgender-children/

                  Membership are unable to raise the issue despite attempts to do so:

                  https://archive.ph/ivI08#selection-353.0-357.697

                  A major reason for this is the capture of institutions such as the AAP. Last year a resolution was submitted to the AAP’s annual leadership forum to inform the academy’s 67,000 members about the growing international skepticism of pediatric gender transition. It asked for a thoughtful update to the current practice of affirmation on demand.

                  Even though the resolution was in the top five of interest based on votes by members cast online, the AAP’s leadership voted it down. In their newsletter, they decried the resolution as transphobic and noted that only 57 members out of 67,000 had endorsed it. The following year, however, when only 53 members backed a resolution that supported affirmative intervention, the AAP allowed the motion to go through, saying that the previous year’s measure was “soundly defeated” while this year’s received “broad support.” When members submitted another resolution to conduct a review of the evidence, the AAP enforced for the first time a rule that shut down member comments, effectively burying it.

                  The Endocrine Society:

                  Guidelines can be found here:

                  https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/102/11/3869/4157558?login=false

                  Recent BMJ article:

                  https://www.bmj.com/content/380/bmj.p382

                  The Endocrine Society commissioned two systematic reviews for its clinical practice guideline, Endocrine Treatment of Gender-Dysphoric/Gender-Incongruent Persons: one on the effects of sex steroids on lipids and cardiovascular outcomes, the other on their effects on bone health.3233 To indicate the quality of evidence underpinning its various guidelines, the Endocrine Society employed the GRADE system (grading of recommendations assessment, development, and evaluation) and judged the quality of evidence for all recommendations on adolescents as “low” or “very low.”

                  Guyatt, who co-developed GRADE, found “serious problems” with the Endocrine Society guidelines, noting that the systematic reviews didn’t look at the effect of the interventions on gender dysphoria itself, arguably “the most important outcome.” He also noted that the Endocrine Society had at times paired strong recommendations—phrased as “we recommend”—with weak evidence. In the adolescent section, the weaker phrasing “we suggest” is used for pubertal hormone suppression when children “first exhibit physical changes of puberty”; however, the stronger phrasing is used to “recommend” GnRHa treatment.

                  “GRADE discourages strong recommendations with low or very low quality evidence except under very specific circumstances,” Guyatt told The BMJ. Those exceptions are “very few and far between,” and when used in guidance, their rationale should be made explicit, Guyatt said. In an emailed response, the Endocrine Society referenced the GRADE system’s five exceptions, but did not specify which it was applying.

                  As you can see, these are just some of the concerns held about the three main authors of affirmative healthcare.

                  If you wanted to talk about specific treatments or the adoption of the Dutch Protocol I can provide some links about those if I have them.

                  "What alternative treatment protocol does the gender critical movement think should be used in the treatment of trans youth?"

                  I would think it'd be the same as anyone else. High-quality, evidenced based care that avoids the risk of iatrogenic harm for those receiving it. Do you honestly think that gender critical people do not want the best care for others, particularly minors?

                  What level and quality of evidence would you like to see for the "gender affirming healthcare" model, given its significant disruption to psychological states, the endocrine system, and possible surgical disruptions to sexual health, reproduction, and urinary functions?

                  • arkie …
                    19 April 2023 at 7:58 pm

                    So the thing is, you're not correct, we have the evidence, gender affirming healthcare is the best care model:

                    I'm a physician-scientist who studies the mental health of transgender and gender diverse youth. I also spend a lot of time on Twitter. And yes I know, that's my first mistake. I've noticed there seem to be hundreds if not thousands of Twitter accounts that will repeatedly post that there is no evidence that gender-affirming medical care results in good mental health outcomes for transgender youth.

                    https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/political-minds/202201/the-evidence-trans-youth-gender-affirming-medical-care

                    tldr:

                    • Sixteen studies to date have examined the impact of gender-affirming medical care for transgender youth.
                    • Existing evidence suggests that gender-affirming medical care results in favorable mental health outcomes.
                    • All major medical organizations oppose legislation that would ban gender-affirming medical care for transgender adolescents.

                    So, if we do in fact 'want the best care for others' then we wouldn't be trying to get involved in or try to prevent the provision of that care to others right?

                    • Anker …
                      19 April 2023 at 8:27 pm

                      https://segm.org/NICE_gender_medicine_systematic_review_finds_poor_quality_evidence

                      Arkie, I would put far more store on the finding of NICE, The National Institute for Clinical Excellence. They review studies, exclued many because case numbers are too low or theirs no control group or they are retrospective. The studies quoted mostly fall into these categories.

                      FFS these drugs, puberty blockers, are not licenced to treat gender. dysphoria. You do realize that these are the drugs that Alan Turing was put on to chemically castrate him because he was gay?

                    • Anker …
                      19 April 2023 at 8:31 pm

                      Arkie and others on this site, if you geniuely want to know a therapeutic approach that helps these kids, please read the link below. Unless you are a therapist, I suggest you skip the first eight pages, because it is pretty technical.

                      On page 9 begins a case study of a therapist working with a teenager, Peter, who identifies as a women. Its a very moving account of how this boy is helped by a very skilled therapist who has his best interests at heart.

                      https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/Documents/Issues/SexualOrientation/IESOGI/Other/Rebekah_Murphy_TowardsaGenderExploratoryModelslowingthingsdownopeningthingsupandexploringidentitydevelopment.pdf

                    • Molly …
                      19 April 2023 at 8:36 pm

                      Jack Turban is a well-known purveyor of low quality, but strong conclusive data that is often picked up by unquestioning media.

                      Here are a couple of the critiques published after his article.

                      You'll have to read them if you want to assess if that criticism is justified. I think it is. You can decide for yourself.

                      Leor Sapir: The Distortions in Jack Turban’s Psychology Today Article on ‘Gender Affirming Care’

                      For those not following the debate over pediatric gender medicine, Dr. Jack Turban is one of the leading proponents of the controversial protocol known as “gender affirming care” and has been outspoken in the American media promoting puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones to manage gender-related distress in youth. He is quoted widely and frequently by mainstream, left-of-center outlets including the Washington Post and the New York Times. This, despite the fact that he is fresh out of his residency and has far less clinical experience than many of the experts with whose more cautious approach to managing gender dysphoria in youth he disagrees.

                      One of Turban’s most widely cited articles is the one published by Psychology Today back in January of this year. The article, it should be noted, was published after health authorities in Sweden, Finland, and the U.K. had conducted systematic reviews of evidence for puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones and concluded, unanimously, that the risks and uncertainties outweigh any known benefits. Sweden and Finland have already severely limited the practice, and the U.K. seems to be moving in the same direction following the damning Cass Report.

                      https://www.realityslaststand.com/p/the-distortions-in-jack-turbans-psychology

                      Post rest in different comment…

                    • Molly …
                      19 April 2023 at 8:37 pm

                      Jesse Singal: Researchers Found Puberty Blockers And Hormones Didn’t Improve Trans Kids’ Mental Health At Their Clinic. Then They Published A Study Claiming The Opposite. (Updated)

                      Critique of Study16 – Tordoff et al

                      It isn’t just the publicity materials; the paper itself tells a similar story, at least a few times. The “Key Points” box found to the right of the abstract reads, “In this prospective cohort of 104 TNB [transgender and nonbinary] youths aged 13 to 20 years, receipt of gender-affirming care, including puberty blockers and gender-affirming hormones, was associated with 60% lower odds of moderate or severe depression and 73% lower odds of suicidality over a 12-month follow-up.” The body of the paper also contains at least two sentences clearly claiming that the kids who went on blockers and hormones experienced improved mental health over time:

                      Our findings are consistent with those of prior studies finding that TNB adolescents are at increased risk of depression, anxiety, and suicidality and studies finding long-term and short-term improvements in mental health outcomes among TNB individuals who receive gender-affirming medical interventions.

                      …

                      Our study provides quantitative evidence that access to PBs or GAHs in a multidisciplinary gender-affirming setting was associated with mental health improvements among TNB youths over a relatively short time frame of 1 year. [endnotes omitted]

                      What’s surprising, in light of all these quotes, is that the kids who took puberty blockers or hormones experienced no statistically significant mental health improvement during the study. The claim that they did improve, which was presented to the public in the study itself, in publicity materials, and on social media (repeatedly) by one of the authors, is false.

                      https://jessesingal.substack.com/p/researchers-found-puberty-blockers

                    • Molly …
                      19 April 2023 at 8:42 pm

                      Follow-up to previous article:

                      .https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-19-04-2023/#comment-1946342

                      Jesse Singal: The University of Washington Is Putting Trans Kids At Risk By Distorting Suicide Research

                      Both the paper and the supplementary materials suffered from a notable dearth of very basic statistical information. When I initially reached out to the lead author, Diana Tordoff, then a PhD student in the epidemiology department at UW, she said she and her team were sharing the data for transparency’s sake. When I pointed out that, in fact, the data was not available where it should be, she stopped responding. “Jesse, contacted the team, and they have no further comment at this time,” said a PR person when I followed up. “They decided to let the methods section speak for itself.”

                      As a result of my work and inquiries, UW slightly walked back some of its PR claims, particularly language about how depression and/or suicidality had “dropped” or “plummeted” in kids who went on GAM, when the researchers’ own supplemental table appears to show those kids didn’t meaningfully improve over the course of the study.

                      https://jessesingal.substack.com/p/the-university-of-washington-is-putting

                    • Molly …
                      19 April 2023 at 9:09 pm

                      "So, if we do in fact 'want the best care for others' then we wouldn't be trying to get involved in or try to prevent the provision of that care to others right?"

                      I am someone who has supported someone through many years of unresolved pain and surgeries because of iatrogenic harm and had someone close die of it. My trust in medical systems therefore has a higher degree of skepticism than perhaps someone that has not seen how despite all the safeguards in place, sometimes treatments or protocols are adopted that are harmful.

                      Do you not have any concern that the three major medical associations that provide the guidelines for affirmation only healthcare, not only failed to provide the clinical evidence when asked, but resorted to lawyers to avoid having to do so at all?

                      Do you not have any concern regarding the failure of the AAP to listen to members and review the guidelines that were adopted without examination?

                      Given the significant health impacts of a poorly functioning endocrine system, are you not concerned that The Endocrine Society's own grading of the evidence for their guidelines is "low" or "very low"?

                      I don't understand how this lack of evidence is not ringing alarm bells for those who claim to have the health and well-being of minors at the forefront.

                      The alternative you asked about could be that while high-quality evidence is gathered, to increase and improve the access to mental health services, and investigation and treatment of any co-morbidities.

                      This approach, called watchful waiting, often gave children and minors time to be treated for co-morbidities and often resolve their gender dysphoria by the time they reached their early twenties. Many of these children discovered they were same-sex attracted.

                      (However, the data from those previous studies references a significantly different demographic from the high number of adolescent girls presenting today, so it's unlikely to be of use in terms of comparison.)

                      One of the clinicians who conducted watchful waiting for many years at a Canadian clinic, was Dr Kenneth Zucker. He was an author of previous WPATH SoC and a long established clinician.

                      This is what happened to him when the medical protocols changed:

                      https://www.thecut.com/2016/02/fight-over-trans-kids-got-a-researcher-fired.html

                      The changes that take place medically and surgically are significant interventions, not merely aesthetic, and also impair or completely disrupt major functioning systems in the body.

                      The evidence for such risky procedures or medications should be overwhelming and robust clinical evidence. Not the "low" or "very low" bar that seems to be the case.

                    • arkie …
                      19 April 2023 at 9:10 pm

                      @Molly

                      Jack Turban is a well-known purveyor of low quality, but strong conclusive data that is often picked up by unquestioning media.

                      Two can play that game; Leor Sapir is a less well-known conservative political scientist involved in anti-transgender political action, Jesse Singal is a journalist, their critiques are noted as is their relevant 'expertise'.

                      You said there is no evidence, this is your opinion on the ‘quality’ of the evidence not a statement of fact; there is evidence, it is a small but growing list, due to the fact that gender affirming care is relatively new as is the wider acceptance of trans individuals.

                      Ultimately what healthcare people receive is really their and their providers business alone, I trust medical professionals and the individuals themselves to achieve the best results possible for themselves as patients.

                    • Molly …
                      19 April 2023 at 9:32 pm

                      @arkie

                      Sorry, I just noticed I replied on the wrong comment.

                      My reply to you is here:

                      .https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-19-04-2023/#comment-1946349

                    • weka []
                      19 April 2023 at 9:58 pm

                      when you link to a TS comment or post, can you please put a full stop (or any character) immediately before the URL? There is a bug that makes internal links embed weirdly without that (and stops people from reading the comment). Mods are having to manually fix each comment with an internal link, so it would be appreciated if commenters could prevent the problem, thanks.

                    • Molly …
                      19 April 2023 at 9:41 pm

                      @Anker

                      Thanks for that paper regarding the Gender Exploratory Model.

                      It was an interesting read, and similar to what many of the detransitioners relate in terms of missed exploration into sexuality, and other co-morbidities.

                      Have bookmarked.

                    • Molly …
                      19 April 2023 at 10:20 pm

                      @weka

                      Yes. Will do.

                    • Molly …
                      20 April 2023 at 8:45 am

                      "So, if we do in fact 'want the best care for others' then we wouldn't be trying to get involved in or try to prevent the provision of that care to others right?"

                      I'll ignore the assumption that care for others must be shown by supporting demands for unevidenced medical interventions, and answer this as matter of factly as I can:

                      The Karolinska Institute in Sweden has just published a short article on the dilemma of providing the best care, after their systematic review of clinical literature did not support the promoted "affirmative healthcare" model.

                      They have created a checklist model to ensure the collection of good clinical data.

                      https://news.ki.se/systematic-review-on-outcomes-of-hormonal-treatment-in-youths-with-gender-dysphoria

                      Importantly, such studies need to follow patients for many years”, says corresponding author Professor Mikael Landén, at Karolinska Institutet and University of Gothenburg. “Against the background of almost non-existent longterm data, we conclude that GnRHa treatment in children with gender dysphoria should be considered experimental treatment rather than standard procedure. This is to say that treatment should only be administered in the context of a clinical trial under informed consent”, he adds.

                      “We found substantial limitations in earlier research on gender dysphoria, and the few longitudinal observational studies were hampered by small numbers, and high attrition rates”, adds Ludvigsson. “For that reason we created a checklist, the GENDHOR checklist, that we hope will facilitate and increase the quality of future research in this field.”

                      (A plethora of links about the Swedish clinical review can be found on this Standard post – and comments – from last year:

                      .https://thestandard.org.nz/why-sweden-is-changing-its-gender-transition-policy-for-children-and-young-people/

                      This links to the review itself, the appendices show the review selections:

                      https://www.sbu.se/342 )

                    • Molly …
                      20 April 2023 at 9:01 am

                      Found a bookmark that provides another author – Jennifer Block – and an article published in BMJ in February 2023, that consolidates the information I had regarding WPATH, AAP and the Endocrine Society.

                      It may be an easier read – more cohesive and informative:

                      https://www.bmj.com/content/380/bmj.p382

                      Gender dysphoria in young people is rising—and so is professional disagreement

                      Joshua Safer, director of the Center for Transgender Medicine and Surgery at Mount Sinai Hospital in New York and coauthor of the Endocrine Society guidelines, told The BMJ that assessment is standard practice at the programme he leads. “We start with a mental health evaluation for anybody under the age of 18,” he says. “There’s a lot of talking going on—that’s a substantial element of things.” Safer has heard stories of adolescents leaving a first or second appointment with a prescription in hand but says that these are overblown. “We really do screen these kids pretty well, and the overwhelming majority of kids who get into these programmes do go on to other interventions,” he says.

                      Without an objective diagnostic test, however, others remain concerned. The demand for services has led to a “perfunctory informed consent process,” wrote two clinicians and a researcher in a recent issue of the Journal of Sex and Marital Therapy,39 in spite of two key uncertainties: the long term impacts of treatment and whether a young person will persist in their gender identity. And the widespread impression of medical consensus doesn’t help. “Unfortunately, gender specialists are frequently unfamiliar with, or discount the significance of, the research in support of these two concepts,” they wrote. “As a result, the informed consent process rarely adequately discloses this information to patients and their families.”

                      For Guyatt, claims of certainty represent both the success and failure of the evidence based medicine movement. “Everybody now has to claim to be evidence based” in order to be taken seriously, he says—that’s the success. But people “don’t particularly adhere to the standard of what is evidence based medicine—that’s the failure.” When there’s been a rigorous systematic review of the evidence and the bottom line is that “we don’t know,’” he says, then “anybody who then claims they do know is not being evidence based.”

                  • Molly …
                    19 April 2023 at 9:16 pm

                    @arkie

                    "Two can play that game; Leor Sapir is a less well known conservative political scientist involved in anti-transgender political action, Jessie Singal is a journalist, their critiques are noted and as is their relevant 'expertise'."

                    Yes. I know Leor Sapir has critics just as Jack Turban does.

                    So I read ALL I can of Jack Turban and Leor Sapir, and Jesse Singal and Tordoff et al etc, and I try to determine whether what is being said is justified.

                    Did you consider that the points made in the articles are completely unjustified?

                    • Shanreagh …
                      19 April 2023 at 9:46 pm

                      Arkie are you able to please let me know what the objections are to helping a child with gender dysphoria and the often accompanying mental health problems, with the concepts behind 'first do no harm' and watchful waiting?

                      Weka set out some of the issues that often sit alongside gender dysphoria
                      ie ‘ (mental health/depression, sexual abuse, autism, being lesbian in a homophobic environment, being a girl in a misogynistic environment etc)’.

                      What are the reasons why these concepts plus intensive counselling would not help a child?

                      Why is there the rush to treat with horrible chemicals or equally horrible surgery on sexual organs? From what I have read it is not easy for a reversal to take place that returns a body to what it was before.

                      It all just seems so cruel and unnecessary to rob a child of their childhood, granted pre puberty/puberty are often hard times but shouldn't the focus be to come through this challenging time, with help aplenty and then see if the landscape is the same in 5 years?

                      I know children's views change over 3, 5 10 years. I mean as a 4 year old I told my father I was planning to always carry a gun in my purse, but this never lasted, I was given a small broken cap gun that I was told would be useful.

                      I was a tomboy, strong and tall for my age …..It would just horrify me to think that my parents might be complicit in something that could have very sad effects. Why would parents not be attracted to the concept of watchful waiting plus counselling?

                      It just seems that children are not the best judge of what the best is for them and that's one of the reasons that they are looked after while young in societies and why parenting is so important to guide, discuss etc.

                      I did link to an interview by Jordan Petersen with Chloe who has detransitioned. She seemed to be saying she had no concept of what growing up might entail, what the chemicals might do and felt she was too young to consent.

                  • RedLogix …
                    20 April 2023 at 10:05 am

                    Molly,

                    You might find this rabbit hole interesting:

                    https://vitamindwiki.com/tiki-index.php?page_id=14355

                    In some respects I see Vitamin D as a proxy for something that lies in plain sight, yet overlooked almost all of the time – that many modern chronic mal-adaptions of our biology have a root cause in the fact of us now living for several generations almost exclusively indoors.

                    The relative paucity of UV-B and Near-IR exposure, the lack of thermal challenge to our bodies, reduced exercise and increased exposure to airborne pathogens are all unwelcome consequences of our modern lifestyle. Yes it is more comfortable inside, but it may well come with a cost we are only just beginning to count.

                    • Molly …
                      20 April 2023 at 10:23 am

                      Dammit, RedLogix.

                      I already have a veritable Watership Down of rabbitholes to keep track of….laugh, however, that link is interesting – so, thank you.

                      I agree our evolutionary adaption processes may have been left behind in the wake of our technological advances that have resulted in our mostly sedentary and indoor modern lives.

                      When I was looking into various impairments to learning and children's behaviour a (long) while ago, one of the aspects of many of those with autism was a restricted diet. Autistic children often limited their food intake to those they found acceptable. There were a couple of studies on the digestive system of autistic children that found that either their diet was too restrictive, or their ability to metabolise nutrients was different, or the system of metabolism itself was impaired.

                      So they were often nutritionally deficient.

                      Anyway, I'll go off and explore the link further.

                      A lot of interesting avenues to travel along in that warren of studies.

                • weka …
                  19 April 2023 at 7:06 pm

                  I think Molly means affirmation only approaches (maybe she can clarify). Affirmation only means prioritising affirmation of the new gender above all else, including sometimes ignoring issues that sit alongside gender dysphoria (mental health/depression, sexual abuse, autism, being lesbian in a homophobic environment, being a girl in a misogynistic environment etc).

                  The key in that is that the usual support and treatments are replaced by affirmation, instead of the usual supports and treatments being the default and then if needed looking at transition.

                  If you would like to understand this better, including which kids do well from affirmation and which don't, I highly recommend following #detrans on twitter. There are many first hand accounts of people who transitioned in their teens via the affirmation only model and later realised it was mistake. They talk about the treatment they weren't offered that they needed.

                  • Shanreagh …
                    19 April 2023 at 10:30 pm

                    Here is another interview from Dr Jordan Peterson with Dr Miriam Grossman who is concerned at the pressures put on parents when a child feels they want to transition.

                • Anker …
                  19 April 2023 at 7:58 pm

                  In answer to your question Arkie, Gender Exploratory Therapy. I will try and find a link.

              • Incognito …
                19 April 2023 at 11:57 pm

                I am aware you are unable to see good faith on this issue.

                For me, that seems obvious from your exchanges here.

                You see, you and I are talking about rather different issues, or topics rather, which you still don’t seem to realise. Why not? Although you came close when you mentioned the robust debate I seek.

                Do you like to be called ignorant, ridiculed, or dismissed? Yet this is what a few others and you are doing, sometimes in a subtle way, sometimes rather blunt bordering on rude & condescending. As you have done again in this reply – it is a good example of the typical passive-aggressive replies.

                People treat others the way they treat them. I could go on, but it doesn’t seem to make any difference because my comments will meet a wall of rejection and deflection.

                Why do others and you always revert back to the same groove in these threads?

                For instance:

                Please don’t try and pull me into your narrative and divert away to your issue of interest. It only confirms that you are conflating the two issues and only want to talk about yours.

                • Molly …
                  20 April 2023 at 7:49 am

                  After reading your comment, all I can see is yet another long admonishment, and nothing offered to discuss.

                  If you feel ignorant, ridiculous and/or dismissed – it it up to you to determine whether you are. You might be one of the first two, and/or the dismissal might be real. I haven't seen many accusations of ignorance or ridiculous being offered, though I have seen repeated avoidance of addressing points made multiple times by various people, and make the assumption that has to be deliberate. Could be wrong.

                  Anyway, did you have anything you wanted to discuss? Or is that not the purpose here?

                  • Shanreagh …
                    20 April 2023 at 9:08 am

                    Good points Molly.

                    Berating adults and avoidance of the issues is not the way to foster debate and interest in topics.

                    Of late the personal anti factor against us on these issues seems to be hyped up as well. I am to refrain from raising concerns by email so I will leave just one thought/concern. Meant carefully and caringly. And in the spirit of as my dad would say 'we've given up shooting people for expressiing a view/thought/care'. So here goes…..

                    A boss, my next door neighbour and my Dad showed uncharacteristic grumpiness, impatience and less of an ability to see the point of another in the weeks before they had serious heart failure. Illness and particularly heart related illness can have grumpiness as a precursor. My dad said he could feel being impatient, hated it but said it seemed to be what it was.

                    • Molly …
                      20 April 2023 at 9:59 am

                      I have friends in nursing, so I know your anecdote holds truth.

                      My thoughts on this impasse are fairly straightforward – when you start looking into the impacts past the #BeKind exhortations, then you often really want to have discussions around the issues you find concerning.

                      If you have decided to #BeKind or have friends or family that you love that you feel need to be protected, ANY discussion around gender ideology is to be suppressed and avoided.

                      As that suppression takes place in various ways, the discussion seekers – try various ways to open dialogue.

                      The discussion suppressors – increase their efforts as well.

                      It depends on how much energy exists in the individuals in either of those groups on whether full, open discussion takes place at any one time.

                    • Shanreagh …
                      20 April 2023 at 11:41 am

                      Thank you Molly.

                      Yes aside from a possible ill health manifestation then another reason for avoidance is the family situation.

                      Perhaps it was the 1970/80s 'assertiveness training' I had as a woman but one point was that if you do not want to discuss a topic or have boundaries within a topic then the responsibility to set your boundaries & to communicate them lies with you yourself.

                      For women it was to give them power to own a decision.

                      I see nothing wrong with making personal uncomfortableness being owned by oneself and not foisted on unsuspecting others who don't have the boundaries and just want to discuss things.

                      At work I saw a few instances where this worked very well and that people making comments would either not say them out out respect, or frame them by saying 'I know people may be offended by this reference, it is relevant……'

                      Wholesale grumpiness and pushing back without a reason as we seem to be experiencing puts whatever uneasiness on us instead of the actual person who is uneasy. Hence we face a 'walking on egg shells' approach not knowing when or why we are going to offend.

                      I am being very careful but the idea of a response of the kind I have been getting has a chilling effect. I am trying to limit my time on TS as a result.

                      For instance it was only when I saw that you and Visubversa had commented on the article that I decided to comment. Up until then I felt diffidence in coming forward to comment.

                      I will get onto Twitter.

                    • Molly …
                      20 April 2023 at 11:52 am

                      @Shanreagh.

                      That's interesting.

                      I just figure that on this platform we're adults who choose to engage in robust debate – or not.

                      I prefer to exchange with those who along with disagreement offer insights or information, but do enjoy reading the back and forth of those skilled at other forms of contributions.

                    • roblogic …
                      21 April 2023 at 2:02 am

                      My mood and thoughts were pretty dark for 3 or 4 weeks after getting Covid.

                      Probably a general effect of cardiovascular stress

                  • Incognito …
                    20 April 2023 at 9:41 pm

                    I was not talking about or referring to myself, but thank you for your concern.

                    Yes, you are wrong – alleged ignorance has been weaponised in debate as the definitive put down of others, sometimes accompanied by sage advice of listening to those who know best here. [no sarc tag]

                    As expected, I hit the wall of rejection and deflection – my purpose & intention bounced right off you, again.

                    Still, I see some change & improvement in the discourse here over the last couple of days, so perhaps all this effort has been worth it after all – I sincerely hope so and would like to move back into the background.

                    • Shanreagh …
                      21 April 2023 at 12:13 am

                      What/who is this in response to please……you don't quote the posters you are replying to or use @.

                      is it this?
                      Incognito…
                      19 April 2023 at 11:57 pm

                      When a thread gets so long that the comments no longer have numbers these tips are helpful.

                      For instance this seems not to have a context in either Molly’s or my comments in response to your points, at least I cannot see where we have raised it?

                      ‘Yes, you are wrong – alleged ignorance has been weaponised in debate as the definitive put down of others,”

    • weka 8.2
      19 April 2023 at 1:36 pm

      By understanding such frameworks, we can move the discussion away from hysteria and fear, towards increased understanding and reconciliation.

      I'm guessing that Hoban is unfamiliar with how the word hysteria has been used against women historically. This makes sense given he seems almost wholly ignorant of the conflict between women's sex based rights and gender ideology.

      However ignorance is no excuse for dismissal of politics that keep women safe. All that is required is listening to women and putting some effort into understanding GC politics. Pity we don’t have an event where he could hear what women have to say 🤔 Or he could just go and ask the myriad of GC women to explain it to him.

      • Incognito 8.2.1
        19 April 2023 at 1:52 pm

        I’m guessing the h-word was deliberate.

        The theology student was not preaching to the converted nor did he want to convert any over to his ideological position. He offered his opinion for consideration and discussion, not instant dismissal.

        Drawing parallels and providing a different context and PoV are not welcome, obviously, and diminished at the first suggestion of incomplete understanding and/or adherence to a certain group-think.

        • weka 8.2.1.1
          19 April 2023 at 2:20 pm

          If he wanted it to be considered he probably shouldn't have written women out then 🤷‍♀️

          As I said, I would have found the purity angle interesting if the whole piece hadn't been problematic from the start. This isn't about group think, it's about women being really sick of the misrepresentation of the issues in the context of No Debate. Writing women out of the issues in that context is always going to get push back. I'm not sure it's possible to talk about the purity frame if women are not part of the analysis.

          • Incognito 8.2.1.1.1
            19 April 2023 at 2:47 pm

            I'm not sure it's possible to talk about the purity frame if women are not part of the analysis.

            This is the issue that others and I have been talking about here for some time and some have for years (with disappointing outcomes that still linger & fester).

            I have no idea whether you truly accuse the theology student of ‘writing out women’ in his Opinion piece, but it would be misunderstanding (and mischaracterisation) of the place & role of Opinion pieces in MSM. My take is that the author wished to be considered by anybody who was willing to consider his opinion.

            If you want to define & control the rules of your debate, you may want to consider a dedicated (daily?) Post with stricter rules than provided on TS by the standard Policy. The current way ain’t fit for your purpose, IMO, because it leaves too little wriggle room for diverging views & opinions.

            • weka 8.2.1.1.1.1
              19 April 2023 at 3:44 pm

              This is the issue that others and I have been talking about here for some time and some have for years (with disappointing outcomes that still linger & fester).

              What is the issue? You haven't actually said. I'm pretty sure you are not saying that the issue is "I'm not sure it's possible to talk about the purity frame if women are not part of the analysis.", so what is it? Spell it out.

              I have no idea whether you truly accuse the theology student of ‘writing out women’ in his Opinion piece,

              Then just ask.

              but it would be misunderstanding (and mischaracterisation) of the place & role of Opinion pieces in MSM. My take is that the author wished to be considered by anybody who was willing to consider his opinion.

              I'm sure he does. But his framing eliminates women from the issue, when it's women that are at the centre of it. This is common in two ways in the gender/sex wars. It's done deliberately by TRAs, who try and frame the war as being far right against queers. It's also done by people who are relatively ignorant of the issues and how they impact on women.

              There is nothing on the piece that includes women's concerns about our sex based rights. He references someone saying that single sex toilet concerns are based in distorted puritanical beliefs about bodies and sex, and makes. no mention whatsoever that we have single sex toilets for women because women fought to have them so they could take part of society.

              The only other reference to women is where he asks why Nazis are attracted to the LWS, as if women haven't been explaining this for the past month. Nazis might have ideas about purity, but that's nothing to do with women.

              If he wanted his frameworks to be understood (and like I said, the purity angle is interesting), then there needs to be some connection to how the politics are in the real world.

              If you want to define & control the rules of your debate, you may want to consider a dedicated (daily?) Post with stricter rules than provided on TS by the standard Policy. The current way ain’t fit for your purpose, IMO, because it leaves too little wriggle room for diverging views & opinions.

              I'm not the one that has the problem with the debate here. You put up a short comment, and link to a problematic piece, and not a lot of explanation, but included a quote using the term hysteria. Women have responded with their thoughts and now you are complaining about them not responding the way you wanted them to. Sounds like you are the one that doesn't like how debate goes here. And that's fine, sometimes it doesn't go the way we want. But I'm not trying to control the rules here, I'm making my arguments exactly how we've always done it.

              Make your own argument Incognito. Explain why you think the purity and theology angles are important, and relate to things that we've been discussing here on TS.

        • Shanreagh 8.2.1.2
          20 April 2023 at 8:53 am

          I’m guessing the h-word was deliberate.

          Why do you think that knowing that the word has been used over the centuries and notably by the so-called fathers of modern psychiatry to 'explain' many concerns of women?

          https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3480686/

          https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/history-quackery/history-hysteria

          'Throughout history hysteria has been a sex-selective disorder, affecting only those of us with a uterus'.

          and

          'In essence, Freud believed that women experienced hysteria because they were unable to reconcile the loss of their (metaphoric) penis. With this in mind, Freud described hysteria as ‘characteristically feminine’, and recommended basically what every other man treating hysteria had through the years- get married and have sex'.

          Why would anyone positing a way through by seeking rapproachment write such an article that includes incorrect facts and smears.

          Even if it is for the good, speaking from a position of ignorance does little to enthuse others. It is as if speaking to him and others like him, we might 'see the sense' and 'oh sorry, we got it wrong about women's safe spaces.'

          He is just in the vernacular, 'slagging off'. He differs from many of those in the crowd of 2000 wanting to crush the women wanting to talk about womens issues on 25/3 by being published.

          The more I have reflected overnight the more I feel that how did this commentator get so far through this life without being aware of womens issues from the vote in NZ, UK suffragettes, to the abortion debates of the 1970s, through to the concern about systemic sexism in the 80s,90s etc. How has he been so blind that these events of current affairs or recent history have zoomed over him?

          * Still a common approach by some medical people

    • roblogic 8.3
      19 April 2023 at 3:27 pm

      Stuff and nonsense. It’s a bad faith clickbait piece crafted to drive engagement not to shed light on the substantial issues in the debate. You can tell the author is dishonest when he starts off with a straw man, making a list of assorted fringe groups, but no mention of one particular group: Women. Nor does he show any awareness of serious academics like Emma Hilton, Kathleen Stock, Jane Clare Jones, Colin Wright, Holly Lawford-Smith and many others who critically examine every aspect of the new gender movement.

      But since his background appears to be in theology, let me make my own theological observations. Sex is an objective biological reality. Humans are inseperable from their bodies – we are not brains in a jar. Human psychology is a complex phenoimeon and equally culture and religion have an insight into a spiritual world. This may be labelled as the collective unconscious, the shadow self, the id, ego, soul or whatever.

      A fundamental error made by the gender movement is that the soul is separate from the body – this arises from too much time online and loo little time “touching grass”. Another is that we have to believe people are who they say they are. This is an open door for abuse. Another concering aspect of human nature that the gender movement denies is that their own side is capable of error or malevolent motives. They are all too willing to accuse others of awful crimes but prefer an airbrished version of reality for their own side.

      It’s next to impossible to debate people who are in such basic denial of reality. The gender movement is akin to a new religion in that way. Its most obnoxious advocates are not interested in discussion or consideration of others point of view. There is a dangerous trend of escalating violence and cancellation of academics and feminists. And the NZ media is all singing from the same song sheet. Not everyone critical of the government is a conspiracy theory cooker. Framing legitimate dissent as fascism is a failure of journalism that does not serve to inform the public, only stirs up mobs.

      like, wtf.

      https://twitter.com/riley_gaines_/status/1644206766165737472?s=61&t=4nyjBVbo16PbRZPJZdlgag

      https://twitter.com/amuse/status/1644279982443601921?s=61&t=4nyjBVbo16PbRZPJZdlgag

      • Francesca 8.3.1
        19 April 2023 at 4:03 pm

        Thanks Roblogic.

        Just extraordinary to me that the womens rights activists get accused of hysteria and violence without any evidence.I don't see lesbians or feminists picketing trans jamborees with placards saying kill a trans, or yelling and screaming and shutting down trans speakers, or holding them hostage , or pelting them with food items.

        We have become so divorced from nature and disembodied that now we imagine we can change sex by sheer belief.(The magical thinking required by those transwomen who swear they are having their period is a trifle scary.How did we get so insane?

        Thanks again for your post

        • roblogic 8.3.1.1
          19 April 2023 at 4:37 pm

          It's an issue that touches a few family members and friends directly. Kids with autism and other undiagnosed issues are being transed and choosing to avoid the difficulties associated with female puberty. I can't imagine how crazy it is for young women these days, all the most toxic stereotypes are on blast via TikTok. It's a generation experiencing unprecedented levels of mental illness. Social media is uniquely isolating and kids share a bizarro superficial fantasy world that is purely about image and groovy beliefs.

        • Anker 8.3.1.2
          19 April 2023 at 9:33 pm

          And on that note a 20 year old male will appear in court tomorrow charged with assaulting a 70 year old women who was part of the Let Women Speak Event

  9. Incognito 9
    19 April 2023 at 10:23 am

    Well, there goes another wishful-thinking urban myth.

    What was clear, Wilson said, was that there was no large-scale sell-off or market exodus by investors.

    “The good news story is at the moment, we are not seeing any size or scale of investors dumping their stock,” he said.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/131801260/number-of-investment-properties-selling-plummets-up-to-83

  10. Incognito 10
    19 April 2023 at 11:12 am

    John Key was a ‘shuffler’, Judith Collins a ‘crusher’, and Chris Luxon is a ‘hustler’. Another day, another breeze of hot halitosis air from the National Leader. He’s flapping, he’s floundering, he’s flatulating, so what’s got the poor man to do to get a lift in the polls, a rocket?

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/get-ready-for-the-luxon-hustle

    The National Party tactic is that they don’t need to present answers or solutions, just a perception of having them ready when the time comes and knowing what they’re doing when it matters, i.e., fake it until you make it. It will be an absolute shambles, of course, but it will have been 6 years and the voters have plenty to moan about. Falling house prices, rising CoL, and major wedge issues will seal the deal. I’d better start reading up on the ACT policies.

    • Alan 10.1
      19 April 2023 at 11:29 am

      Yep, the upcoming six months of tough times will make it hard for Labour at election time.

      Wedge issues won't help either.

      • Tricledrown 10.1.1
        19 April 2023 at 12:33 pm

        Misinformation by mainstream media such as Stuff's opinion on our massive trade deficit ignores the cause and is basically National Party propaganda the cost of Oil imports isn't mentioned once in what is effectively a free election advertising for National. The Cost of Oil imports is up by $1.2 billion dollars per month over last year which no doubt is up on previous years. We need to reduce oil use.Stuff says we need to stop red tape in farming ie pollution enviromental degradation,Safety,Labour exploitation{slavery}.Stuff need to be called out on their fact free articles!

    • alwyn 10.2
      19 April 2023 at 6:08 pm

      Yesterday you told me

      "Oh dear, you never seem to get my jokes. If you’d read my comment properly you’d have realised that nothing made sense what I wrote.".

      Now I understand what you mean. I have carefully read this comment, studied what you said yesterday about how to recognize your humourous remarks and it is quite obvious that you mean this as a joke. It fits your description perfectly. All is now clear.

  11. logie97 11
    19 April 2023 at 5:08 pm

    Labour's Nash lobbying and the National/Act faux outrage.

    It may have been discussed here previously.

    The conservative parties in the world are totally beholden to their lobbyists. Big business, farming etc. I would venture to suggest that the current opposition caucuses spend most of their non-parliamentary time being conferenced, wined, dined or entertained by one or more of their donor sectors. And they formulate policy to match the everyday conversations and lobbying they have. Even when they venture to the sporting clubs (golf/rugby/bridge etc) you can bet what conversations they will be having.

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  • Judicial appointments announced
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