Open mike 19/10/2024

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, October 19th, 2024 - 39 comments
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39 comments on “Open mike 19/10/2024 ”

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  2. Grey Area 2
    19 October 2024 at 7:13 am

    Totally agree. They are beyond incompetent and corrupt. Almost every day they take us down further.

    There is an extra layer of cruelty, callousness,and lack of human decency in everything they do.

    Truly unbelievable.

    Totally appropriate it’s the heartless Van Velden announcing this.

  3. gsays 3
    19 October 2024 at 8:05 am

    What a reversal of form!

    The White Ferns are in to the final of the T20 World Cup, having beaten West Indies in the semi-final. Coming up to the competition, they had lost the last 10 games they played.

    A solid opening partnership from veteran Suzy Bates and newbie Georgia Plimmer wasn't supported by the middle and lower order.

    While bowling there were a few dropped catches and Dottin threatened to take the game away with a flurry of sixes. The team held their nerve, the game getting to the final over with WI needing eleven runs from five balls.

    They play Sth Africa in the final 3am Monday.

    • Bearded Git 3.1
      19 October 2024 at 9:37 am

      T20 is Mickey Mouse cricket. Slog and giggle.

      Now, the Blackcaps bowling India out for 46 in India in a Test Match-that is news.

      • Descendant Of Smith 3.1.1
        19 October 2024 at 10:01 am

        Aye and snapping up that wicket right at the end strengthens our position leading into tomorrow.

        Just hope we don't snatch defeat from the jaws of victory as we have done a few times in the last ten years.

        • Bearded Git 3.1.1.1
          19 October 2024 at 10:58 am

          True…a couple of quick wickets early is the ticket. (Don't let Southee bowl).

          • gsays 3.1.1.1.1
            19 October 2024 at 12:00 pm

            I've had to curb my criticism of Southee this test. Started the capitulation on the first day and supported Ravindra through to his century on the second.

            • Bearded Git 3.1.1.1.1.1
              19 October 2024 at 12:30 pm

              True…he played very well….7th test 50 which is low given his obvious batting talent….he has been a fantastic servant for the test team….but time to hang up his bowling boots now.

    • tsmithfield 3.2
      19 October 2024 at 11:39 am

      I think there were several results that favoured us.

      Firstly, the West Indies beating England. We have tended to struggle against England. Where as West Indies seemed more beatable for us.

      Secondly, South Africa beating Australia. Now we are in the finals, South Africa seems more beatable for us that Australia who we have struggled against.

      In both WI vs England and SA vs Australia, England and Australia would win most of the time in those match ups I expect. But, luckily for us, both England and Austrlia had their occasional losses to those opponents in the same tournament.

      • gsays 3.2.1
        19 October 2024 at 11:59 am

        You are correct.

        There have been a lot of odd, unexpected results in this tournament.

        Us beating India to kick off with was a pleasant surprise. As you say, other results have certainly opened up the contest.

        One more game. What a way to send some marvelous players into retirement.

      • SPC 3.2.2
        19 October 2024 at 12:21 pm

        We were due. WI won the 20/20 semi-final in 2016, and the loss to them in the 2022 one day tournament cost us a place in the semi-finals.

        Winning against India (who nearly beat Oz) was key.

        The holding wicket helped negate the form of their batters (as well as our own top 4), the little used Halliday and Gaze did enough closing it out.

  4. PsyclingLeft.Always 4
    19 October 2024 at 8:34 am

    Clean Rivers. The Public would surely be the Majority ? Farmers the Minority ? Under NACT1 who will get what they want ?

    Public wants fast rivers clean-up but farmers call for handbrake

    Two months of talking to Taranaki people has exposed the split between the farming industry and the rest of the region over polluted rivers.

    Taranaki Regional Council (TRC) community meetings in June and July found most people want cleaner waterways as soon as possible – but the farmer lobby wants a slowdown, worried they will shoulder too high a cost.

    Those Maori…..what more do they want ?

    Iwi and hapū reinforced their consistent call for the highest freshwater standards at hui across the region, calling for awa healthy enough for people to collect kai.

    And.. well, havent they always ?

    Intensifying dairy farming was the main cause of Taranaki water pollution but farmers did not want to be told how many cows they could have.

    TRC policy manager Lisa Hawkins

    "Stocking rates as a proxy for managing further intensification did come under quite a lot of scrutiny," Hawkins said.

    The kickback was so strong the council would likely drop the approach, with evidence unclear about how well limiting stock would improve streams across the region's variety of farms.

    WTF !? I'm sure Andrew Hoggard ex FarmFed Pres and now ACT MP would have been influencing….

    The government last week announced it would no longer require resource consents for future intensification, which Hawkins said would leave a hole in the rules.

    Farm pollution..denial.

    At TRC's first community meeting in Ōkato in June, councillor Donna Cram questioned whether most of Taranaki's pollution was coming from farms, despite mountains of evidence presented to the Policy and Planning Committee on which she sits.

    Cram was until recently on Taranaki Federated Farmers' executive and was 2023 Fonterra Dairy Woman of the Year and she still struggled to see beyond the farmer perspective by the end of the meeting.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/ldr/531115/public-wants-fast-rivers-clean-up-but-farmers-call-for-handbrake

    • Hunter Thompson II 4.1
      20 October 2024 at 10:01 am

      I'm surprised the rep from Federated Farmers didn't say water was a “complex issue” requiring "more research"; that's their bog-standard delaying tactic.

      Their other ploy is to trumpet how much money farmers have spent on fencing their paddocks, riparian planting and other supposed anti-pollution measures.

      All a smokescreen designed to obscure the fact that water quality that has continued to decline.

  5. gsays 5
    19 October 2024 at 9:19 am

    A insightful interview with a genuine, intelligent and compassionate finance spokesperson. Labour's Barbara Edmonds.

    Came across to me as unscripted, considered and sincere. The future got a little brighter with this MP who could articulate an alternative vision without dissing the current hierarchy.

  6. AB 6
    19 October 2024 at 9:46 am

    Iwi and hapū reinforced their consistent call for the highest freshwater standards at hui across the region, calling for awa healthy enough for people to collect kai.

    Well, this is a very old and very one-sided battle – the right to gain subsistence from land that is managed in common and 'held' in common (but not owned by anyone), versus having to gain subsistence by abasing oneself to the coercive forces of a labour market. Over several hundred years, the wrong side has kept winning. If you want to know why Seymour et al want to nullify the Treaty, this is it: they want their side to keep winning.

    • Subliminal 6.1
      19 October 2024 at 1:33 pm

      Well put AB. I mean hows a privatised health system expected to make any money if we go and stop poisoning the places we live in??

      Whereas public health is enhanced by a clean and healthy environment.

      Its the same with privatised prisons. How can they make any money if namby pamby judges get to divert the crims into rehab?

      The first part is to bend the structure of society by loading up public health and other societal goods with enough costs that it becomes untenable to fund. Then privatise and once privatised there is only incentive to continue degrading the environment and peoples health.

      Funding public infrastructure is the only path to a healthy future because it incentivises a healthy environment and society. When health is public, it makes sense to make good the environment in which we live.

  7. Stephen D 7
    19 October 2024 at 9:56 am

    I was at a public meeting last night with Deborah Russell and Craig Renney. He spoke about the economics of what the CoC is doing, and how the economy is in real trouble. And is going to get a lot worse. All data via Treasury.

    Deborah went over the Policy Council and caucus discussions around tax policy, and how to change the conversation. From tax being a burden, to it being an investment in all our lives.

    The Labour Party annual conference is in late November. Expect announcements after that.

  8. Dolomedes III 8
    19 October 2024 at 10:24 am

    I've only just come across this good news story. The so-called "Disinformation Project" is closing its doors: https://www.thedisinfoproject.org/

    Their website shows an astonishing level of delusion and paranoia:

    At the same time as disinformation grows, social platforms like X (formally Twitter) and Meta (Facebook and Instagram) are part of a larger trend of companies preventing independent researchers from accessing the open-source data they need to study disinformation growth on their platforms.

    I'd love to knnow how companies are preventing Hannah and Hattotuwa from accessing open source data. Actually, there is probably more data now publicly available than at any other time in history, thanks to an increasing number of research journals requiring authors to make their data publicly available on sites like figshare. But perhaps more importantly, Hannah and Hattotuwa were never "independent researchers". They were shills for the Ardern government's culture war offensive. A researcher is a truth-seeker who asks questions and is open-minded about potential answers. Do Hannah and Hattotuwa really imagine that's what they are?

  9. Descendant Of Smith 9
    19 October 2024 at 10:35 am

    We've seen here various National stooges caught on-line pretending to be left wing extremists in order to garner disdain for the left (usually be accidently forgetting which account they were logged in to) but when money is involved you can take it to a whole new level.

    https://www.opensecrets.org/news/2024/10/pro-trump-dark-money-network-tied-to-elon-musk-behind-fake-pro-harris-campaign-scheme/

    An initiative called Progress 2028 that purports to be Kamala Harris’ liberal counter to the conservative Heritage Foundation’s Project 2025 is actually run by a dark money network supporting former President Donald Trump.

    Building America’s Future, the dark money group at the helm of the network, has steered money to a constellation of groups and initiatives boosting Trump’s agenda and spreading messaging aimed at chipping away voters from Harris. The dark money group reportedly received over $100 million in funding from billionaire Elon Musk, along with other donors, the New York Times recently reported.

    • SPC 9.1
      19 October 2024 at 12:37 pm

      Musk trying to buy a presidency, an ethics free zone.

    • joe90 9.2
      19 October 2024 at 12:52 pm

      Apartheid Clyde doing his thing..

      /

      An Elon Musk-funded group called Future Coalition PAC is targeting Muslim voters in Michigan and Jewish voters in Pennsylvania with diametrically opposed political advertisements about Kamala Harris. In areas of Michigan with relatively large Muslim populations, the Super PAC is painting Harris as a close friend of Israel and is suggesting that she is beholden to the beliefs of her Jewish husband Doug Emhoff; in parts of Pennsylvania with relatively large Jewish populations, the advertisements call Harris antisemitic and say she “support[s] denying Israel the weapons needed to defeat the Hamas terrorists who massacred thousands.”

      Meanwhile, a related PAC also funded by Musk is microtargeting likely Black voters on Snapchat with ads that says Kamala Harris is trying to ban menthol cigarettes (surveys have shown that 81 percent of Black smokers use menthols, and big tobacco has disproportionately marketed menthol cigarettes to Black Americans).

      Here are two ads created by Future Coalition PAC. The ad on the left below are being delivered via Snapchat to people in ZIP codes in Michigan that have many Muslim voters; the ad on the right being delivered via Snapchat to people in ZIP codes in Pennsylvania that have many Jewish voters.

      https://www.404media.co/this-is-exactly-how-an-elon-musk-funded-pac-is-microtargeting-muslims-and-jews-with-opposing-messages/

      https://archive.li/ZZt64

  10. Dennis Frank 10
    19 October 2024 at 12:13 pm

    If AI is to swing the result for Trump, expect it to do so in the fortnight before election day. The obvious would be a media blitz in which the voice of Kamala Harris is heard.

    A recent study by Ivanti, an IT security and systems management company, revealed that 54% of office workers were unaware that AI can impersonate anyone’s voice. https://techinformed.com/ai-disinformation-2024-us-election-deepfakes-voter-manipulation/

    Saying something likely to cause apparent self-harm to swing voters, I mean. To succeed, such a tactic must affect a slice of the electorate above the margin of error and happen too late for any accusation of fakery to be effective in countering it.

    According to Simon Horswell, senior fraud specialist at Onfido, this proliferation of fake content is evidenced by a 3000% increase in deepfake attempts in 2023.

    • Dennis Frank 10.1
      19 October 2024 at 12:52 pm

      Further to that, looks like some yanks need AI to tell them how to vote:

      A CBS news account from June 2024 reported that ChatGPT had given incorrect or incomplete responses to some prompts asking how to vote in battleground states. And ChatGPT didn’t consistently follow the policy of its owner, OpenAI, and refer users to CanIVote.org, a respected site for voting information. https://theconversation.com/4-ways-ai-can-be-used-and-abused-in-the-2024-election-from-deepfakes-to-foreign-interference-239878

      We must keep in mind that half the electorate are below average intelligence, so the reservoir of those in need of AI help is deep. Bit of a worry that the robot is disobeying its owner though. Folks will recall what happened when Dr. Frankenstein's artificial human did so & wonder what next. Perhaps the owner has already given the programmers of the machine a tongue-lashing & the deviation has been rectified.

  11. Dolomedes III 11
    19 October 2024 at 1:34 pm

    It would be great if TS moderators protected commentators from actual abuse.

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    • weka 11.1
      19 October 2024 at 2:31 pm

      we're not mind readers. Point to what you think the problem is, link, explain the problem, and ask us to take a look at it.

    • lprent 11.2
      19 October 2024 at 6:31 pm

      Actually moderators are not here to prevent abuse. That is often in the eye of the beholder and subject to interpretation. It is like arguing about how to pronounce tomato.

      What moderators are here for is promote robust debate on this site. The reasons for that are made quite explicit in the policy, the opening paragraphs of which are as follows


      We encourage robust debate and we’re tolerant of dissenting views. But this site run for reasonably rational debate between dissenting viewpoints and we intend to keep it operating that way.

      What we’re not prepared to accept are pointless personal attacks, or tone or language that has the effect of excluding others. We are intolerant of people starting or continuing flamewars where there is little discussion or debate. This includes making assertions that you are unable to substantiate with some proof (and that doesn’t mean endless links to unsubstantial authorities) or even argue when requested to do so. Such comments may be deleted without warning or one of the alternatives below may be employed. The action taken is completely up to the moderator who takes it.

      Attacking the blog site, or attributing a mind to a machine (ie talking about The Standard as if it had an opinion), or trying to imply that the computer that runs the site has some kind of mind control over authors and commentators is not allowed. Making such assertions will often get the sysop answering you, because he considers that those are comments directed at him personally. As a computer programmer he knows exactly how dumb machines are. If you’re lucky he will merely give you an educational ban. But sometimes when time is available, he does like to point out in a humiliating manner that machines are not intelligent – and neither is the person expressing that fallacy. .

      You will note my bolds. Now with reference to you. In one short sentence you violated several precepts on the policy.

      1. Clearly you hadn't read the policy. Which puts you in the category of being a stupid guest rather than a valued guest of the site. If you want to criticise your hosts, then it usually pays not to look like some spoilt child who tries to assert that you run someone else's area. While one might overlook the foolishness of the very young, it becomes a different matter
      2. There are other parts of the policy that state who make the site rules quite explicitly. It is the authors, moderators, and operators of the site who are the cooperative who operate it. Trying to tell us how we should be running our site is offence that we will ban for. It is generally a compete waste of time dealing with some random commenter trying to assert dominance on something that they have absolutely no control over.
      3. You made a pointless personal attack on moderators as a group by setting up a invented an objective that isn't in our policy "protect commentators from actual abuse", and then accusing them of not doing it.You made an assertion of false fact. It wasn't even framed as an opinion, which is far more acceptable in robust debate.
      4. In effect as the policy states in the third paragraph – you made this accusation to and about me. We will get to that shortly.
      5. As weka has already pointed out, you also didn't provide any proof to support whatever point you were making. You didn't even attempt to link or quote anything that could be construed as being actual abuse. So you failed the test of having substantive proof that your assertion was even valid.

      So what are we left with.

      • You are too lazy to read the first 3 paragraphs of the site policy.
      • You are a presumably a adult, without the excuse of immaturity, acting with the social skills of spoilt child screaming that others should do what you want.
      • You deserve little respect because you attack those who work hard on this site to keep it running and accessible.
      • You are being personally defamatory about me as the operator of this system accusing me of dereliction of a duty that I had not undertaken to assume.
      • You are clearly too stupid to do something as simple as add a link to whatever you were talking about.
      • I usually assume making unsubstantiated assertions without giving any proof just means that you are too cowardly to provide any proof of your assertion – because you know that it is insubstantial and will be torn to pieces. So clearly you must have a fragile ego and should not be involved in robust debate at all.

      Is there any reason I should continue to allow you to write comments or even to be able to access the site?

      Justify your presence – because you have clearly violated our policies.

  12. Subliminal 12
    19 October 2024 at 2:18 pm

    Yahya Sinwar has died heroically fighting the Israeli Occupation Forces on the frontline in Gaza. Drone footage shows a dust covered Sinwar, obviously badly injured with one arm useless after fighting off Israeli soldiers and sustained tank shelling, sitting in a chair in somebodies ruined house. His last act is to hurl a stick in the direction of the drone which takes his life.

    Israel didn't even know who they were fighting until afterwards a soldier examining the scene recognised the face and posted a photo to social media.

    This brave man will be remembered and honoured. At 62 years old, he still led from the front. He refused to hide and preferred martyrdom in service to the struggle for a free Palestine.

    The Resistence will not be defeated. It has reformed more strongly after each of the previous assasinations of leaders.

    https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/maureen-clare-murphy/yahya-sinwar-killed-combat-israeli-forces-gaza

  13. joe90 13
    19 October 2024 at 3:35 pm

    A member of the UN Security Council is hunting civilians with drones.

    Fuck Russia.

    /

    Two years into Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, civilians living in the frontline city of Kherson are grappling with the new threat from small civilian drones adapted to carry explosives.

    On social media, Russian soldiers openly boast that their objective is anyone or anything that moves. Since the drones began swarming the city in July, there have been thousands of attacks each month, killing 24 civilians and injuring hundreds more.

    “The hunt has started,” urged one Telegram post above a satellite image of an ordinary van. “Any black minivan must be destroyed no matter where are they going.”

    They have dropped grenades on buses and people waiting at bus stops, civilians on bikes and queueing for humanitarian aid, or, like Ustenko, just walking home with shopping.

    […]

    In August there were more than 2,500 attacks, or dozens each day, the vast majority of them inside Kherson city, said Oleksandr Tolokonnikov, a spokesperson for the Kherson military administration. In September there were more than 2,700.

    Between 1 July and 11 October, drones injured more than 400 civilians, including seven children. Many of those injuries were life-changing, including some requiring amputations, Tolokonnikov said.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/oct/18/drones-carrying-explosives-stalk-streets-of-kherson-ukraine-russia

  14. joe90 14
    19 October 2024 at 3:56 pm

    All the official @KamalaHQ account has to do is to quote Trump's discombobulated weaves .

    @KamalaHQ

    Trump: Over the seas and over our land. And then they want us to have clean. I said wait, we’re gonna be clean but it’s all flying. Just remember that. Does that make sense? In other words, it’s all coming through the currents through the air, they can name it

    https://xcancel.com/KamalaHQ/status/1847000306535612563

  15. Stephen D 15
    19 October 2024 at 5:28 pm

    From Chat GPT. A lot of good ideas, and common sense.

    If we treat neoliberalism metaphorically as a “cult,” deprogramming its believers would require a systematic and thoughtful approach to addressing the beliefs and assumptions that underlie it. This doesn’t mean attacking individuals directly but rather creating conditions where alternative perspectives can emerge. Here are some strategies that could be considered:

    1. Expose the Contradictions and Failures of Neoliberalism

    • Evidence-Based Arguments: Present empirical evidence that shows the real-world consequences of neoliberal policies—such as rising inequality, environmental degradation, and financial instability. Highlight instances where deregulation or market solutions have failed to deliver positive outcomes for the majority.

    • Historical Context: Educate about the historical development of neoliberalism and how its adoption often came with significant social costs (e.g., austerity measures, erosion of public services). Show how these ideas were not inevitable but were politically driven.

    2. Offer Alternatives

    • Promote Alternative Models: Provide viable and attractive alternatives, such as models of social democracy, cooperative economics, or sustainable development that prioritize equity, social welfare, and environmental sustainability. Demonstrating how these approaches have succeeded in certain countries or regions can be powerful.

    • Demonstrate Feasibility: One of neoliberalism’s strengths is its perceived practicality. To challenge this, present concrete examples of where alternative policies have worked (e.g., universal healthcare systems, wealth redistribution programs, environmental regulations that support green jobs).

    3. Address Emotional and Psychological Attachment

    • Empathy and Understanding: Many people see neoliberalism as tied to personal freedom, self-reliance, and economic opportunity. Engage empathetically, showing understanding for these concerns while pointing out how neoliberal policies might not actually deliver on these promises for most people.

    • Narratives of Shared Well-Being: Counter neoliberalism’s individualistic framework with compelling narratives that emphasize collective well-being and how societies flourish when they work for the benefit of all, not just a few. Stories of solidarity, community success, and mutual aid can counterbalance the emphasis on personal competition.

    4. Deconstruct the Ideological Framework

    • Critical Thinking and Media Literacy: Encourage critical examination of the sources of neoliberal ideas, especially in media and education. Point out how certain economic assumptions (e.g., “trickle-down economics”) have been debunked, and promote awareness of how media and think tanks funded by corporate interests may perpetuate neoliberal ideology.

    • Reveal Power Dynamics: Help people understand who benefits most from neoliberalism—often wealthy elites and multinational corporations. By highlighting these dynamics, it becomes clearer that the ideology may not serve the broader population’s interests.

    5. Create Spaces for Dialogue and Engagement

    • Facilitate Open Discussions: Provide forums for open, non-adversarial conversations where people can safely question neoliberal ideas without feeling attacked. Use these spaces to build bridges between different perspectives and to foster a more nuanced understanding of economic and social policies.

    • Organize Educational Campaigns: Invest in public education initiatives that explain how different economic systems work and their effects on people’s lives. Workshops, public lectures, and documentaries can serve as tools for enlightening people about alternatives.

    6. Shift Political and Institutional Power

    • Support Progressive Policies and Leaders: Encourage political engagement in support of candidates and movements that challenge neoliberal orthodoxy. Policies that center around public welfare, environmental sustainability, and democratic participation need to be seen not as radical but as practical alternatives to neoliberalism.

    • Work Through Local Change: Start at the community level by fostering local initiatives that focus on cooperative economies, public goods, and shared governance. As people experience these alternatives in practice, they may begin to shift away from neoliberal ideals.

    7. Challenge the Language of Neoliberalism

    • Reframe the Debate: Neoliberalism often uses terms like “freedom,” “efficiency,” and “choice” to justify its policies. Reframe these terms to show how freedom under neoliberalism can be restricted for the majority, efficiency often prioritizes profit over people, and choice can be illusory when basic needs aren’t met.

    • Promote Different Values: Elevate other values like cooperation, community, fairness, and sustainability, showing how they can lead to better outcomes for society at large.

    Ultimately, “deprogramming” in this sense involves replacing rigid adherence to neoliberal ideas with more flexible, context-sensitive thinking. This requires creating spaces for learning, reflection, and experience that challenge dominant paradigms while offering better alternatives.

    • Patricia Bremner 15.1
      19 October 2024 at 8:22 pm

      yes 100%

    • SPC 15.2
      19 October 2024 at 9:25 pm

      Does AI presume that the right does not deliberately lie for advantage and that their supporters only pretend to believe the lie, because the lie serves their purpose?

      1.birther movement (American white male born Promise Keeper leadership cult)
      2.6000 year old earth
      3.finding Noahs Ark
      4.prosperity religion gospel
      5.God does not like the secular left getting in the way of mammon, or Gilead.
      6.Kingdom come via Trump and continuance of unconditional support for Israeli occupation, ruin of the planet as a habitat for life – all leading to end time war and bowls of judgment.

      • SPC 15.2.1
        19 October 2024 at 10:48 pm

        Upgraded to a new revised version

        1.belief in an economic order based around a prosperity gospel (love of money/wealth/mammon).

        2.belief in an American white male born Promise Keeper leadership cult of the Gilead order.

        3.belief in a 6000 year old earth and that Noahs Ark can be found.

        4.belief that the existence of the United States of America and the state of Israel is part of bible prophecy.

        5.belief in a Christian nation state dominionism by the cult of the strongman who oppresses the secular left/democratic resistance via Project 2025 (a public restoration of the HUAC era in a post March 4 1789 constitutional republic form – a do over).

        6.belief in end time prophecy of an age of bowls of judgment, thus having no plan to bring peace, or defend the planet as a habitat for life.

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