Open mike 19/11/2022

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, November 19th, 2022 - 161 comments
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Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

161 comments on “Open mike 19/11/2022 ”

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  1. bwaghorn 1
    19 November 2022 at 7:01 am

    https://i.stuff.co.nz/world/uk/300743302/economy-in-free-fall-britain-hikes-taxes-to-save-sinking-economy

    Huh ,I've woken up in a parallel universe it would seem. Same but very different.

  2. weka 2
    19 November 2022 at 7:56 am

    Thing about twitter is no one knows what’s going to happen,

    https://twitter.com/mosquitocapital/status/1593541177965678592

  3. Mac1 3
    19 November 2022 at 8:00 am

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/130516576/no-consequences-they-believe-they-can-get-away-with-whatever-they-want

    Andrew Gunn on page B5 in the Christchurch Press satirises Luxon, boot camps and a 'hard core of young, anti-social, born-to-rule chinless wonders" who are at risk of being 'parachuted into a safe seat for life.'

    "They see no consequences whatsoever and believe they can get away with whatever they want".

    Brilliant satire……. if only.

    • Shanreagh 3.1
      19 November 2022 at 8:50 am

      I always get a bit sad that they have to put the label satire on these columns. We have become such literalists. It pains me to think that the appreciation of all these fabulous uses of language/figures of speech are incapable of being read and recognised for what they are.

    • Drowsy M. Kram 3.2
      19 November 2022 at 10:30 am

      Very good – thanks.

      As at press time, Mr Luxon was unavailable for comment as he had to put in another shift at McDonalds, just like everyone else who owns seven houses.

    • weka 4.1
      19 November 2022 at 8:49 am

      first speaker (position = trans rights are not up for debate and it was wrong to invite Kathleen Stock to be part of the debate) just made the proposition that because we have the right to say something doesn't mean we should say it. Not sure they intended this, but it came across as: you have the right to say something, but it's wrong to say it.

      Don't think he's made an argument to support that.

      • weka 4.1.1
        19 November 2022 at 9:02 am

        summarises the point of contention as definition of what is a man/woman, but refuses to debate this because that's debating trans people.

        Instead they're going to look at Stock's actions eg tweets and support.

        Starting with the LGB Alliance, they appear to make a number of negative assertions about LGBA (some of which are almost certainly not true and/or a misrepresentation of the LGBA position), and then asserts that Stock's involvement with the organisation is akin to having the same positions.

        LGBA do 'truly reprehensible things', therefore support cannot be defensible. They don't provide evidence for the assertion of truly reprehensible. I don't know if this is normal in formal debate.

      • Anker 4.1.2
        19 November 2022 at 9:37 am

        Kalicott came across as thoroughly arrogant. I am allowed to offend and say what I want about Kathleen Stock, but she doesn't have the right too.

        Cherry picked distortions about LGB Alliance

        Guy at 34 was excellent

    • weka 4.2
      19 November 2022 at 2:31 pm

      Chair makes a statement that the speakers must address the proposition (this house believes in the right to offend), rather than focusing on other speakers.

      second speaker, opposition to motion, Teodor Grama. Protest outside, agrees with protestors, it's wrong that the topic is being debated at the CU, but believes the debate is going to happen anyway so better to be involved.

      His main argument is more interesting – that his side of the debate has the ability for nuance whereas the affirming side of 'right to offend' doesn't (the latter is a position that all offense is acceptable as free speech).

      He uses Salman Rushdie's Satanic Verses as an example of speech that many find offensive, but the offense is outweighed by the social good of the book.

      His side wants to say some offense serves a social good, but there are other offenses that are unacceptable. He names homophobia, transphobia, racism and all 'other' forms of prejudice. He doesn't say who gets to decide. I will note that he didn't name misogyny (pertinent because prejudice against women is increasingly being made invisible as a social justice issue despite half the human population being female, and because lots of progressive men are complicit in this).

      • weka 4.2.1
        19 November 2022 at 2:54 pm

        talking now about why the right to offend "is not a mere legal prohibition on state censorship". Why are we having this debate? Because various commentators have expressed offensive views in various forms. Names Jordan Peterson, Ben Shapiro, and JK Rowling, as three examples (spot the difference 🙄).

        They haven't complained about not being legally allowed to speak, they've complained about cancel culture and deplatforming (says the young white man privileged enough to attend Cambridge University). He calls this backlash and social sanction, and goes on to make the assertion that the affirmative side, in supporting the right to offend is also saying that society should accept all speech without intervention, and that it is "illegitimate to restrict the proliferation of such views through any social means we have available, protest or otherwise"

        This is clearly a nonsense. While the libertarian side of the free speech debate might be closer to that, gender critical feminists are clearly not saying that at all. Which makes me think he doesn't know what the GC views are (hence him grouping JKR with JP and Shapiro). Maybe he has no class analysis either and can't recognise left/right wing political positions and how they change meaning of GC.

        In other words, he is saying that the right to offend must give 'fair hearing' to racism, anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, transphobia, homophobia (the omission of misogyny is glaring now). He's trying to put the opposition view into a box of his making, rather than understanding it in its own terms and then critiquing it.

        This is particularly relevant because Kathleen Stock's starting position as a philosopher is that we should be able to argue our opponent's position in a way that is fair to them, before we criticise it.

        It's a feature of the gender/sex wars that genderists generally can't or won't do that. This is true of the first two speakers (who are genderists).

        He now talks about why the affirmative can't meaningfully make a case for their position. The necessity of giving all views a fair hearing without censure means that individuals cannot respond in the free market of idea based on their own views, desires, values etc. It's an infringement on autonomy for people to listen to what they want and respond.

        We do place restrictions eg on politicians during elections, and this serves a good social purpose.

        Now he argues that offensive views generate more harm than social good (seems unaware of the irony of his views being offensive and thus being harmful, lol). He uses a broad category here of marginalised, minority people, vulnerable groups, who are denied free expression because of fear of ridicule and attacks. That the offensive views (which he hasn't defined) dehumanise them and infringe on their dignity).

        Sidebar here. Penny just dropped. I think he's talking about trans people being the worst oppressed people,

        … bombarded from all sides with all sorts of rhetoric and discourse that dehumanises them, that makes them feel horrible, that makes them feel incapable of engaging properly

        but he's also as a white man talking about how white men are now treated by society. I doubt this is conscious, but it does explain why so many blokes feel much more affinity with trans people than they do with women. It also explains the refusal to understand or take seriously left wing GCF views. It's the patriarchy in action, make women the baddies. He goes on to say that people who make others feel this way should be deplatformed. Feminists eh, the ones who insist that feminism is politics for females.

    • weka 4.3
      19 November 2022 at 3:05 pm

      Speakers from the floor. First one is another white dude arguing against women's rights to single sex spaces 🙄 Using an argument that opposition to gender mixed toilets comes from the right.

      Speaker abstaining, another white man saying the debate has been a waste of his time because the speakers have failed to engage with points of information on comments they have made that are controversial and worthy of discussion. Sniping comments have been made about the guest speaker (Stock) and the first speaker basically ran an attack on her. The topic is worthy of debate, there are historical and contemporary reasons why, and it should be treated with more respect. Man standing up and arguing for debate rather than rhetoric.

      Speaker opposing the motion, young black man, hard to hear as he didn't have a mike, but seems to be saying that the power that a person has matters in terms of the impact of what they say. Talking about something at the university, one of the departments and professors talking about race intelligence? Offensive words are made to harm, the house should oppose the right to offend.

      Just realised that the background noise is the protest outside (using sound to disrupt people speaking is a common tactic of the genderist side).

    • roblogic 4.4
      19 November 2022 at 3:11 pm

      Kathleen Stock was clearly nervous and you could hear the loud groups of protesters outside desperate to disrupt proceedings. But kudos to her for standing up and speaking out on behalf of a basic democratic right — to say things that some find heretical or offensive. She has bigger cojones than most of us.

      Prof. Arif Ahmed from Cambridge (from about 1:14:00) was very eloquent and made his points graciously about public discourse in a democracy — and how the "right not to be offended" is always used by the dominant group in society to shut down dissent e.g. the governments of China or Iran. His closing quotes:

      “Take away the right to say ‘fuck’ and you take away the right to say ‘fuck the government.”
      ― Lenny Bruce

      "This freedom of speech and these human rights were paid for by generations long ago, and they were paid for in courage and in blood. They weren't designed to make us comfortable; they were designed to keep us free."
      ― Baroness Chakrabarti

      • weka 4.4.1
        19 November 2022 at 8:14 pm

        haven't watched the second half yet but her speech was so good, such a relief to hear that intelligence on all levels.

        And yes, very brave.

        • Anker 4.4.1.1
          19 November 2022 at 9:32 pm

          Kathleen Stock excellent and she looked rattled. Understandably so. Must have brought back the harrassment (masked men on campas calling to get rid of Stock).

          Shes one brave women.

    • weka 4.5
      19 November 2022 at 5:20 pm

      Kathleen Stock, philosopher, former professor, author, lesbian (wouldn't normally mention that but the whole lesbians should have sex with trans identified males is the context).

      She starts by saying that she's not going to respond to the things that have been said about her, although she obviously disagrees. It's fine for people to say what they want to say. She's going to respond to the debate question: is there a right to offend?

  5. roblogic 5
    19 November 2022 at 8:55 am

    Newshub: Jacinda was hugely complimented at APEC in Thailand yesterday…

    Jacinda Ardern is in Thailand for the APEC meeting, heading straight to a CEO Summit. There, she was given an embarrassment of compliments in an introduction to her speech.

    Ardern was described as: "The most effective leader on the planet… the greatest thinker of the COVID era."

    "I almost felt slightly embarrassed by the generosity of it," she said afterwards.

    • Mac1 5.1
      19 November 2022 at 9:13 am

      "A prophet in her own country", at least for some.

      Meanwhile Luxon is now being satirised at home for doughnut politics where you u-turn on a u-turn of a u-turn, his ridiculous re-invention of militaristic boot-camp intervention and National's inability to see the effects on poor candidate selections by the interventions of powerful ruling elites.

  6. Temp ORary 6
    19 November 2022 at 9:39 am

    Labour party seems set to sacrifice principles for convenience once again. Which would be surprising, except it really isn't.

    I don't comment much on this site anymore; given the suffocating transphobia that I find it healthier to avoid subjecting myself to. But did participate in discussion around the proposed Incitement to Discrimination law changes the other year. So it seemed appropriate to mention this development here, rather than my usual online discussion places. At least until I get some of the disgust I feel for those craven poll chasers out of my system. I was liking being a swing voter, now I have much fewer voting options (never ACT, certainly not Luxon Nats, and now with Labour stacking gutlessness upon gutlessness – I am left with few choices next year).

    Proposed last year in response to the March 15 terror attack and the Royal Commission report that followed, the reforms were due to expand protections to women, religious groups and rainbow and disabled communities, among others. As it stands, only hate speech on the basis of race, skin colour or national origin is prohibited…

    However, Newsroom understands, the scope of the reforms is likely to be severely curtailed. Justice Minister Kiri Allan has discussed only adding religion to the list of protected grounds and making no further changes to hate speech law…

    A related programme to reform hate crimes, which are offences like assault or vandalism committed with a hateful motive, may be stalled, Newsroom also understands. Hate crime reforms were another recommendation from the Royal Commission, which the Government accepted in principle in 2020.

    A spokesperson for Allan declined to comment.

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/hate-speech-reforms-drastically-watered-down

    • Molly 6.1
      19 November 2022 at 10:18 am

      Thanks for beginning this timely discussion.

      "I don't comment much on this site anymore; given the suffocating transphobia that I find it healthier to avoid subjecting myself to."

      Disagreeing with you, or speaking about the impacts of legislative and policy changes is not transphobia, but it is often labelled as such.

      As for the bill, it is unnecessary and should be thrown out in its entirety.

    • Sacha 6.2
      19 November 2022 at 10:48 am

      The transphobia cultivated here is an ongoing shame. And another pissweak backdown from Labour to please who? The fearful old people who would vote for Winston or the Nats anyway.

      • Molly 6.2.2
        19 November 2022 at 11:08 am

        "The transphobia cultivated here is an ongoing shame. "

        The repeatedly unevidenced accusation is shameful.

        I know you think otherwise – so, on this we disagree.

        • Sacha 6.2.2.1
          19 November 2022 at 11:12 am

          I do not expect you to examine your own conscience but it is a narrow path to choose.

          • weka 6.2.2.1.1
            19 November 2022 at 11:16 am

            Please stop trolling. If you want to have a conversation on TS about transphobia, then have the conversation rather than making vague digs that can’t be responded to meaningfully.

            • Sacha 6.2.2.1.1.1
              19 November 2022 at 1:36 pm

              Merely wanted to make sure a commenter who said "I don't comment much on this site anymore; given the suffocating transphobia that I find it healthier to avoid subjecting myself to" did not see the only response being a denial of their reality. Not expecting your small group to change their minds.

              [that’s not the problem, it’s how you did it. I see from your response that you won’t stop trolling, so take a week off. When you come back you are welcome to talk about transphobia, and/or affirm other people’s realities, but you cannot troll here. If you want an explanation of the difference, then ask – weka]

              • weka …
                19 November 2022 at 1:59 pm

                mod note.

                • SPC …
                  19 November 2022 at 3:10 pm

                  You do realise, all you have done is to confirm everything that Sacha said?

                  The first irony is that this is the very reason the Labour Party has failed to make much progress with legislation. All the nuance, such as tightening up on the definition of what speech is in breech counts for nought, because of a fear that woke/PC activists will make groundless complaints to police to de-platform others.

                  The second irony is that G-CF see themselves as victims of the same de-platforming

                  https://twitter.com/Womans_Place_UK/status/1592929163039899649

                  PS G-CF, coz nothing shows up on google for “GCF”.

                  • weka …
                    19 November 2022 at 3:16 pm

                    You do realise, all you have done is to confirm everything that Sacha said?

                    Please explain. Because no, I don't know what you are meaning. Use your words. It might be obvious to you, it’s not to me (I was just modding as I do based on a pattern of behaviour of someone who should know better and I didn’t want to waste any more of my time on it. Something that is also consistent with most mods here).

                    The first irony is that this is the very reason the Labour Party has failed to make much progress with legislation. All the nuance, such as tightening up on the definition of what speech is in breech counts for nought, because of a fear that woke/PC activists will make groundless complaints to police to de-platform others.

                    Again, don't know which legislation you are referring to. But as with Three Waters, there are a range of reasons for opposition. People who try and box it into for/progressive and against/bigots do the country a massive disservice.

                    The second irony is that GCF see themselves as victims of the same de-platforming

                    and again, what is your point? Women's Place UK did have an event dropped by Eventbrite, allegedly because of EB's hateful speech policy. We will see if that stands, because the legal precedents have been established in UK law already that gender critical views are protected under law.

                    So what was your point exactly?

                    • SPC …
                      19 November 2022 at 3:35 pm

                      Sigh .. the being required to repeat myself to explain …

                      You do realise, all you have done is to confirm everything that Sacha said? Which was

                      Merely wanted to make sure a commenter who said "I don't comment much on this site anymore; given the suffocating transphobia that I find it healthier to avoid subjecting myself to" did not see the only response being a denial of their reality.

                      Onto

                      Again, don't know which legislation you are referring to.

                      Sigh – it's obviously that under discussion from 6 on. The long proposed change to legislation on hate speech (as to what it covers and in what way.

                      As for what was the point of my observation about those who practice de-platforming while complaining about it themselves – I will refer to the post of roblogic below still on 6

                      People who believe in trans theology/gender theory are perfectly within their rights to do so. Trying to evangelise others and force them into a belief system that they find idiotic (to put it politely) is what gets their backs up.

                      OTOH those who hold to trans theology/gender theory as a vital part of their identity have a right to feel aggrieved or offended when their religious beliefs are mocked. But that goes for any culture. It feels bad when Māori culture is sidelined or suppressed, or when my own religion is trashed in the news.

                      Doesn't give me a right to cancel the free speech of others or to force them to submit to my beliefs.

                    • weka []
                      19 November 2022 at 4:00 pm

                      Sigh .. the being required to repeat myself to explain …

                      You can imagine how I feel being expected to engage with someone @ing me on a Saturday over a moderation when they can’t even be bothered to explain themselves.

                      You do realise, all you have done is to confirm everything that Sacha said? Which was

                      Merely wanted to make sure a commenter who said “I don’t comment much on this site anymore; given the suffocating transphobia that I find it healthier to avoid subjecting myself to” did not see the only response being a denial of their reality.

                      So not everything Sacha said, but this one specific thing. What have I confirmed? You still haven’t explained. I’ll guess. You think that Sacha shouldn’t have been banned because he’s needed here to make sure that Temp doesn’t feel something? Why should someone who is obviously trolling be given allowances when others aren’t?

                      Again, don’t know which legislation you are referring to.

                      Sigh – it’s obviously that under discussion from 6 on. The long proposed change to legislation on hate speech (as to what it covers and in what way.

                      Again, it’s not obvious. I wasn’t reading the thread for content, I was reading it to moderate. They’re two different things. Sometimes moderators use the comment flow in the back end and we don’t see the whole conversation in context, we just see someone with a pattern of behaviour trolling and we intervene.

                      As for what was the point of my observation about those who practice de-platforming while complaining about it themselves – I will refer to the post of roblogic below still on 6

                      People who believe in trans theology/gender theory are perfectly within their rights to do so. Trying to evangelise others and force them into a belief system that they find idiotic (to put it politely) is what gets their backs up.

                      OTOH those who hold to trans theology/gender theory as a vital part of their identity have a right to feel aggrieved or offended when their religious beliefs are mocked. But that goes for any culture. It feels bad when Māori culture is sidelined or suppressed, or when my own religion is trashed in the news.

                      Doesn’t give me a right to cancel the free speech of others or to force them to submit to my beliefs.

                      Still no idea what you are on about. I know what Rob means. I don’t know what you mean. Nothing worthwhile bothering with as apparently you can’t be arsed explaining. Maybe I’ll guess again. You think the moderating trolls is a suppression of free speech and I shouldn’t have done it. Who the fuck knows though.

                      We are here for the robust debate. Stop expecting people to mind read, make your argument or go away, because I don’t want to be wasting my time.

                    • SPC …
                      19 November 2022 at 4:24 pm

                      So what was your point exactly?

                      I did not see the support for Temp Orary view (first post and latter in his response to others) as trolling (but supportive to a greater diversity of contributor and involvement on "gender ID" debates). And otherwise his posts on 6 were in relation to the hate speech law itself and added to the debate.

                    • weka []
                      19 November 2022 at 4:44 pm

                      thanks, now I understand. Can you please say that up front next time?

                      I didn’t moderate Sacha for his political content. He was moderated for his pattern of behaviours trolling.

                      I’m fine with people offering support and solidarity to Temp (or anyone). What is not ok is the sly digs all the way through. Intentional digs imo. If Sacha wanted to talk about the issues, he should have talked about the issues. If he wanted to support Temp, he can do that without the digs. The digs are the trolling, not the desire to offer support. I think trans people here do deserve more support. However this is a political blog, and there are substantial politics involved, ones that Sacha is largely in denial about and refuses to engage with. That’s his choice, but he can’t have it both ways.

                      I also won’t countenance left wing men making derogatory trolling comments about feminists. That’s just bullshit on a site like this. Sacha is well aware of just how difficult it is for feminists to write and comment here, so I can only take his support for Temp and digs at feminists and him picking a very particular side. He can do this of course, but he can’t troll from that. He has a history of this now, and it’s time it stopped. He can either front up and engage in the debate or he can keep his digs to himself.

                    • Anker …
                      19 November 2022 at 9:19 pm

                      In repsonse to Weka re SUFW not really left wing. They did a survery of themselves and most of them were Green/Labs.

                      Early on they were accused on not caring about other feminists causes. So they listed annonymously all the causes they had been involved with e.g Sos abortion services in the 1970s, The SB tour, rape crisis. The list is impressive. I am trying to post the link to the page but having some difficulty.
                      Nope no go, but visit SUFW and click on who we are for interest.

                    • weka []
                      19 November 2022 at 9:40 pm

                      fair point. I was thinking of the people who are the public face of the group.

                    • Anker …
                      19 November 2022 at 10:44 pm

                      Re SUFW leadership….Ani O'b is no longer in that role.

                      New woman is a very strong lesbian leftie

                      In fact I would estimate at least 50% are lesbians.

                      Still can't post that link unfortunately

                    • Anker …
                      20 November 2022 at 9:49 am

                      Thanks Molly for that link. (ie. SUFW who we are link)

                      It is an impressive list of women supporting women and activism for women's and other causes.

                      Millsy where are you? I seem to think you think SUFW are right wing christian bigots. Here's the reality

                  • Anker …
                    19 November 2022 at 6:55 pm

                    SPC "G-CF see themselves as victims of the same deplatforming"

                    But actually gender critical feminists experienced a significant de platforming, when SUFW tried to have meetings about the self id gender bill to discuss this legislation in public libraries. They were smeared and mis represented and one by one their meetings were shut down by the libraries.

                    SUFW then took Palmerston North Library to the High Court and won the right to hold their meeetings. The High Court judges declared SUFW was not a hate group.

                    In all my years of activism, I have never had this experience before and this was a group of women who are largely feminist, left wing and non denominational.

                    I apprecaite the Standard every day as a place I can exercise my free speech

                • Temp ORary …
                  20 November 2022 at 9:52 am

                  Weka

                  I did have a (way too long) comment written yestereve that I decided to put aside unposted. Not least because it might be taken, in part, as criticism of site moderators. I may recycle it from word processor folder next week when Sacha is allowed to participate in the discourse again.

                  Does their banning expire on next Saturday or Sunday?

      • Anker 6.2.3
        19 November 2022 at 11:10 am

        What transphobia?

        There are a number of gender critical women (and some men) on this site, who don't agree with gender ideology or queer theory.

        For me not only do I not accept these theories (although I accept the right of people to believe them), I see a lot of harmful things about these ideologies that are not get reported in the NZ media.

        Amongst other things

        1. The medicalization for children and young people with a mental disorder known as gender dysphoria. I have grave concerns that young people are being offered affirmative gender care that doesn't question why a young person might be feeling so distressed with their sexed body. Fast tracking kids to puberty blockers and then cross sex hormones rather than providing them with appropriate exploratory therapy to get to the bottom of their distress. Overseas countries such as the UK, France and Finland have rolled back use of PB . Reluctantly NZ Health was forced to change the advice on their website that PB are safe and fully reversible.
        2. I believe in biological reality, that women are a sex class that need and deserve their own protected speaces in as much as they should have women only change rooms, prisons, refuges, accommodation, sporting competitions and scholarships etc.

        I feel no shame whatsoever that I am speaking up about this.

        • Sacha 6.2.3.1
          19 November 2022 at 11:14 am

          I do not expect you to feel shame. It is one though.

          • The Fairy Godmother 6.2.3.1.1
            19 November 2022 at 11:32 am

            Shame is always a tool used by cults. If you do not adhere to the beliefs of the cult. If you question the premises of the cult; in this instance the premise that one can choose ones gender and children should helped to do so with drugs and surgery then you should feel ashamed. Cults will also disfellowship people in other words cancel them and refuse to engage with them.This is very unhealthy and causes much harm. Why not engage and talk to other people and find out what they think and why. This is one of the things I really like about the standard.

          • Sabine 6.2.3.1.2
            19 November 2022 at 11:54 am

            What do you think would be the appropriate punishment for a social and colonial construct who refuses to feel shame for not believing in transubstantiation?

            • Incognito 6.2.3.1.2.1
              19 November 2022 at 12:19 pm

              100 lashes with leaf lettuce from Luxon’s Bic Mac and mandatory reprogramming in Luxon’s boot camp by having to listen to all his episodes of QT until you feel tears of sorrow, pity, and shame and vote for anything but Labour or Green Party.

            • Molly 6.2.3.1.2.2
              19 November 2022 at 12:37 pm

              Apparently, it's having to expect and accept with resigned equanimity, inane responses such as the one above…wink

              • Sabine …
                19 November 2022 at 12:46 pm

                I am very much looking forward casting a vote for Legalise Aotearoa. No social constructs of any kind will be harmed with my vote. 🙂

              • Incognito …
                19 November 2022 at 12:51 pm

                People, especially self-righteous ones, are so quick to judge, especially when they miss the meaning of words and misunderstand and/or misinterpret the concepts, analogies, and metaphors used by others with whom they have already decided to disagree cheeky

                • Molly …
                  19 November 2022 at 1:18 pm

                  Alternatively, it could just be that a shared sense of humour does not exist, given that no content to either agree or disagree with was on offer.

                  Eg. I thought your comment was not funny, and mine was. laugh

                  • Incognito …
                    19 November 2022 at 1:35 pm

                    As with many subjective comments rather than rational reasoned debates, judging one’s humour as funny or not is highly subjective. Perhaps it wasn’t humour per se but a means to convey something without making it sound too harsh in order to make it more palatable to those who are less receptive because of the dogmatic walls they have erected/constructed.

                    The first part of my comment was, of course, about (public) flogging and shaming as a form of punishment and a tool of manipulation. Public shaming is very common in sexual hate speech, as you know. Flogging with word salads is common here too; TS has its own Grand Executioner, who shall not be named right now, and some self-righteous regulars just love it.

                    I’m happy to expand and elaborate on my comment to demonstrate the underlying politics and political message that involves public shaming and invoking shame and conscience on this political blog to score points rather than to further/foster constructive debate. It may show you that there was actually an awful lot of content packed into that brief ‘inane’ comment of mine, which you happened to miss or ignore. Just say the word smiley

                    • Molly …
                      19 November 2022 at 1:43 pm

                      ". It may show you that there was actually an awful lot of content packed into that brief ‘inane’ comment of mine, which you happened to miss or ignore. Just say the word "

                      Thanks, Incognito for the offer.

                      The word is "No."

                      laugh

            • roblogic 6.2.3.1.2.3
              19 November 2022 at 2:15 pm

              People who believe in trans theology/gender theory are perfectly within their rights to do so. Trying to evangelise others and force them into a belief system that they find idiotic (to put it politely) is what gets their backs up.

              OTOH those who hold to trans theology/gender theory as a vital part of their identity have a right to feel aggrieved or offended when their religious beliefs are mocked. But that goes for any culture. It feels bad when Māori culture is sidelined or suppressed, or when my own religion is trashed in the news.

              Doesn't give me a right to cancel the free speech of others or to force them to submit to my beliefs.

            • Shanreagh 6.2.3.1.2.4
              20 November 2022 at 9:35 am

              Did you really mean 'transubstantiation' in its usual theological meaning:

              'the conversion of the substance of the Eucharistic elements into the body and blood of Christ at consecration, only the appearances of bread and wine still remaining'.

              or

              Transubstantiation is, according to the teaching of the Catholic Church, "the change of the whole substance of bread into the substance of the Body of Christ and of the whole substance of wine into the substance of the Blood of Christ"

              as opposed to consubstantiation

              https://www.britannica.com/topic/consubstantiation

              These are long term uses of language. The trans debate has already cost bio women much in human rights with the lack of guaranteed access to safe spaces. Personally I would be unhappy if the trans debate also claimed a serviceable and specific word to its uses.

              NB I support human rights ie no discrimination for transgender people but not at the cost of hard fought for human rights for women.

              Or were you meaning it in the context of an Emperors New Clothes or Alice (words mean what I want them to mean).

              In which case it is a very clever use.

              transubstantiation,,,,,that the anti female trans community says happens to them even without any genital surgery, ie they magically turn to bio females.

              I'd be happier though with the use of consubstantiation to represent my idea of what happens. Blood & wine of Christ are represented by wine and water. Trans women look like women but are not women.

              Again reinforcing that no-one should be denied human rights or subject to insult by the way they look.

              Again Sacha a clever use of words.

              • Sabine …
                20 November 2022 at 3:01 pm

                I think David Chappelle said it very well

                "I support anyone's right to be who they want to be. My question is: to what extent do I have to participate in your self-image?"

                I would add to that quote, at what stage am i allowed to opt out of participating in someone elses self image as a validation tool, specially when it starts to endanger those like me and removes my rights and the language that i need to advocate for myself and those like me.

                Anyone can pretend/believe that an unleavened wafer and a drop of bad wine is the body and the blood of Christ, and anyone should be allowed to not believe that same thing. In the end, it is only an unleavened wafer and a drop of bad wine.

                Ditto for people who would like to pretend that they are the other sex. They are not. They can present stereotypically feminine or masculine, but no male has ever given birth and no female has ever inseminated another.
                And it will also not happen in the future. These are just basic facts of life. And we should be able to admit these realities, and build on that.

                Disclaimer: I lived for nine years in a convent and well, i don't do submission and obedience very well i guess.

                • Shanreagh …
                  20 November 2022 at 7:10 pm

                  I agree with what you say.

                  Thankfully the school I went to Anglican, prided itself of growing, for want of a better word, stroppy females prepared to question. We led a huge revolt when a headmaster tried to move us from middlebrow Anglican to High Anglican, with all sorts of prayers throughout the day. To do this meant urgent research on all matters theological so we could marshall our arguments. So we were not submissive either.

                  I would add to that quote, at what stage am i allowed to opt out of participating in someone elses self image as a validation tool, specially when it starts to endanger those like me and removes my rights and the language that i need to advocate for myself and those like me.

                  This is very powerful Sabine.

    • Ad 6.3
      19 November 2022 at 12:35 pm

      No NZ government on our history has advanced the interests of the trans community like this one in both legal protection and directed health expenditure.

      What this government needs to work on more is protecting them from physical harm.

      The survey on how well NZPolice are dealing with the massively high proportion of violence against trans and binary people will have useful results for Police and for comparing against the last Crime and Victims Survey.

      Transgender, non-binary abuse victims asked for experiences with police | Stuff.co.nz

      This actual protection from violence, not more legislation, is where they need to focus their effort.

      • Molly 6.3.1
        19 November 2022 at 1:10 pm

        That article demonstrates very little evidence of harm, but rather survey respondents self- perception of harm:

        "…including the fear of being discriminated against…"

        This is a particular interesting example, worth further discussion:

        ""We have seen changes, for example if a trans woman is being assaulted by her husband, and he says that's because he's found out she's trans, that will no longer be treated as an excuse," she says."

        So, let's go through this:

        (NB: Framed as a long-term relationship through the use of husband, implying marriage and previous intimate knowledge, but is relevant in terms of any intimate relationship, including casual sex.)

        1. Domestic assault regardless of identity is treated as such, regardless of the excuses offered by the abuser.
        2. A reaction to finding out your sexual partner is not the sex you thought they were, leads to questions about:
        • sex by deception;
        • sexual consent;
        • and the right to have respected your sexual orientation.

        Looking for information regarding this issue from our own advisory rainbow community organisations, it is not fully addressed, while they advocate consent be agreed upon, they also advise that as a transperson you are not compelled to "out yourself" to anyone.

        If you engage in a sexual act with someone who you know has a sexual orientation that excludes you as an intimate partner, and know that they perceive you to be another sex, and you not only don't rectify that perception but encourage it – is this either sex by deception, sexual orientation conversion of some type, or both?

        1. The article also tucks in misgendering as a violent act, and uses the actual violence perpetrated on bisexual (report linked to includes lesbians and gays) and extrapolates it to the whole LGBTQ+ community.

        "The report also found that 47 percent of bisexual adults are likely to experience crime over a 12-month period compared with 30 percent for the New Zealand average.

        Lesbian or gay adults during their lifetime will experience more than double the rate of sexual violence from their partners at 33 percent compared to the New Zealand average of 16 percent."

        • Ad 6.3.1.1
          19 November 2022 at 1:22 pm

          Perception of harm, better known as fear, is a pretty useful indicator of your place in the offending world.

          Now that self-identification is easier, the Police reporting and community reporting will get more specific. The last NZCVS one I've seen was 2021.

          NZCVS-LGB-Final.pdf (justice.govt.nz)

          • Molly 6.3.1.1.1
            19 November 2022 at 1:36 pm

            "Perception of harm, better known as fear, is a pretty useful indicator of your place in the offending world."

            Is it, though?

            Surely there are justifiers missing there, such as "realistic" or indeed "justified" perception of harm.

            Otherwise, an unrealistic or unjustifiable perception of harm is given equal merit in consideration.

            • Sabine 6.3.1.1.1.1
              20 November 2022 at 10:00 pm

              harm….. always in the eyes of the beholder, right?

              did you see this?

              https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/11/19/ministry-justice-officials-warned-talk-protecting-women-could/

              Thousands of officials were emailed for “transgender awareness week” and told it was “vital that we keep scaremongering and misinformation at bay”, with trans hate crimes up 56 per cent in a year.

              The email, marked “official sensitive” and sent this month through the HM Prison and Probation Service (HMPPS) diversity and inclusion team, has been leaked to The Telegraph.

              In order to “be an active ally”, staff were given a glossary titled “recognising transphobic coded language”, which contained 35 everyday phrases that it claimed were “turning what would be considered overt discrimination into covert behaviour”.

              ‘List of coded language’

              The list of “coded language” includes the phrase “gender critical”, which is used to refer to campaigners who believe biological sex is binary and immutable.

              However, the document claims it is a “self-selected label to denote holding anti-trans views, it’s a term used to make anti-trans discrimination sound palatable or a respectable opinion” and warns staff to look out for social media accounts that hold this view.

              Also listed is “protect women’s spaces/protecting women and girls”, which it says “relies on equating trans women with being predatory men, to play on unfounded fears and convince people that supporting trans inclusion threatens their safety”.

              The dossier claims that this “dog-whistle” relies on “selective information” including the case of Karen White, a rapist jailed for life in 2018 after attacking women in female prisons, as well as five sexual assaults by trans prisoners in female prisons over a decade.

              • Molly …
                21 November 2022 at 6:22 am

                Yes, I did.

                "“protect women’s spaces/protecting women and girls”" is dogwhistle, huh?

                #NoImpact they lied.

                • weka …
                  21 November 2022 at 7:47 am

                  Seems like ground is being lost so quickly at the moment.

                  • Sabine …
                    21 November 2022 at 7:53 am

                    The ground was lost a long time ago, now they are just making it public for those that thought that there was still a ‘fight’ going on. And all the major parties agree to this, just like they all agree on hate speech laws and the likes.

                    • weka …
                      21 November 2022 at 8:57 am

                      in the UK that's not true. Case law has now established that GC beliefs are protected against discrimination. It appears where there is push back the genderist stuff falls (seems to be happening with the arresting people for tweets thing too). Public pressure is helping, more people are speaking up.

                      It will probably take another court case to test HMPPS policy and whether it is legal. These are not minimal gains, they are serious ones. It means that in the UK Judges ultimately get to decide what is fair and reasonable, not MPs.

                    • Sabine …
                      21 November 2022 at 9:11 am

                      Laws are only good if they are enforced by those that enforce the law.

                  • Sabine …
                    21 November 2022 at 11:33 am

                    I can think in English, German, French.

                    I can also speak English while having a German conversation with my relatives which always is quite funny as it takes some time to switch of. In essence they speak German, my brain understands it but my answers come in English and i did the same while living in France and visiting home.

                    But i am an easy learner of languages speaking and reading- but i can't write for the life of me in any language, that really demands effort and literally hurts my brain.

                    I also dream in German, English and French.

                    Edit: i do however not translate from German into English or French, i simply speak these languages with the vocabulary i have and am continuously adding new words to hat vocabulary.

                  • Sabine …
                    21 November 2022 at 11:45 am

                    Edit to my previous comment re thinking in a foreign language.

                    While the voice in my head speaks english – i don't consider myself as thinking.

                    If i were to live in full immersion of Te Reo i would soon enough speak Te Reo. With of course horrible grammar and all that, but i would be able to survive in a place where that would be the only language spoken. If that makes sense to you?

                    • weka …
                      21 November 2022 at 9:05 pm

                      it does. You are fortunate to have that gift. I don't have the ear so have to learn the hard way.

                  • Sabine …
                    21 November 2022 at 9:42 pm

                    This is it actually, i don't think the language i hear it. Language has a sound, ones the sound becomes familiar the sentences have beginnings and ends, the words suddenly jump out and you can literally see them as individuals. Advertising on telly is great for it as you have the action/product, the written word and the sound. Link the sound to the image of the word and the action / product so easy. My favorite TV show at the time a brilliant music telly production called Taratata with Nagui.

                    But the best tools for learning a language is a dictionary with phonetic writing in them, which i had for english. Hence why I have some abilities to communicate in the written word.

                    For your other discussion the word that i would have used -specially in that context would have been Whenua.

                • Sabine …
                  21 November 2022 at 8:06 am

                  #no impact – they lied.

                  No they did not. They never lied.

                  It is just us that thought that at least a few may care what happens to the non persons that birthed them, that are their offspring, that are their partners. And that these few may find some spine and guts and heart to fight for these things in their lives.

                  But i think the ones that will find this hardest to deal with these changes are those with education. The poor among us already know this and in many places live their life without dignity, safety and respect. And other then lip service nothing is paid to their plight. The difference between the Taliban in Afghanistan and the Taliban in England is simple. The one hides their property under a bedsheet for ‘protection’ the other erases every mention of their property in public records, removes the words that used to describe them, and pretends its progressive and good for all. The effects are the same.

                  And the educated PHD holding and sitting in Parliament Serena Joys of this world will learn it in due time, as will the dears in our political parties that still feel so progressive about their pronouns and daily linguistic incantations to affirm their loyalty to the cause.

                  I understand why young ones cut of their breast and inject anabolic steroids like it was a saline solution, it is their way out of this misery and hopefully be accorded the privilege of being male and thus granted a chance at a decent life.

                  We are now effectively back in the times were the word women did not appear in any legal texts, were women were incomplete men in the medical texts and washing hands was not something to expect from a doctor, were women are property to birth , clean and provide sexual services and other free of charge labour, were women are things to own, use and dispose of. And anyone even just daring to to feel conflicted about this shit is a phobe or sorts who hates men in skirts that go spinny.

                  The day men and some women thought that locking violent males in prison cells with women was progressive was the day women were thrown in the village pond to see if they float whilst tied to a chair.

                  One question that i have, is transgenderism a religion? And will that fall under the protection of the hate speech laws?

                  • Molly …
                    21 November 2022 at 8:41 am

                    Thanks Sabine.

                    Just when I think it couldn't get worse, this government promises to fast track hate speech legislation.

                    Many left wing and progressive people will support this because they have cultivated a habit of censure and shaming when challenged by disagreement. Add in a bit of sanctified victimhood, and the expectation of reasoned discussion is no longer necessary.
                    Who needs it when we all know what is hateful (and unkind)?

                    Shame, shame on those who might suggest opposing such legislation. Do they have no empathy for those who have a perception of fear?

                    https://www.police.govt.nz/advice-services/advice-victims/hate-crime

                    "A hate crime is an offence perceived by the victim, or any other person, to be motivated by hostility or prejudice towards a person’s race, religion, sexual orientation, gender identity, disability or age.

                    A hate incident is an act perceived to be motivated by hate for these characteristics, but doesn’t meet the threshold of being considered a crime.

                    Hate crimes and hate incidents can encompass a broad range of acts, including threatening behaviour, harassment and verbal abuse, online abuse, criminal damage, assault and sexual violence.

                    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/nz-has-high-female-murder-rate/I543VT6NW7UZRVBUSQ6AONJUCY/

                    Despite our high female murder rate, and non-existent transgender body count (long may it continue) – which protected characteristic from the Human Rights Act (1993) is missing (alongside marital status)? – and which is an inclusion of a characteristic that is not in the same Act?

                    Three guesses. (Though if you need more than one, don't bother.)

                    Given this current policy, how do you see this hate legislation shaping up, Sabine?

                    Because I'm thinking it's going to be horrendous.

                    Yes, yes… I hear the bell…

                    GIF – but not embedded:
                    https://external-preview.redd.it/Gb4_ryKNoxM7lfXoHx–EH67HYxsihzGeoybcXFIopQ.gif?format=mp4&s=c08132794602ed0054dd156ef4760eaf721a619e

                    • Sabine …
                      21 November 2022 at 9:10 am

                      how do i think it is progressing?

                      My dear, we shall meet in the ponds, on the stakes, scolded and shamed for daring to not be obedient property. As it was done in the past.

                    • weka []
                      21 November 2022 at 10:23 am

                      Hey Sabine, for another conversation, can you think in both English and German?

                    • Molly …
                      21 November 2022 at 10:35 am

                      @Sabine

                      Thanks for the link. So many books, so little time…

                      "My dear, we shall meet in the ponds, on the stakes, scolded and shamed for daring to not be obedient property. As it was done in the past"

                      And people criticised women for lunching, when these alternatives remained ready and waiting…

                    • Sabine …
                      21 November 2022 at 11:36 am

                      Shaming us for having lunches is just the beginning. It all starts somewhere and it ends with us not having the right to define us, meet among ourselves and simply be.

                      the things that we are are to validate others, serve them, seen but never heard.

                      Which leaves this question -last raised sometime during the 1400 – are we actually human?

              • Molly …
                21 November 2022 at 12:00 pm

                Archived article for those who couldn't get past the paywall:

                https://archive.ph/sqpWm

                This tweet has the actual document in it:

                https://twitter.com/NoXYinXXprisons/status/1594111361692225537?s=20&t=UiJFZLNrNIrCvreDuZ8JlA

                Words not allowed to be meaningful or accurate.

                • Sabine …
                  21 November 2022 at 12:15 pm

                  of course words can't have meaning …… that would be counteractive to the movement. Words mean what ever those in power mean at the time they state them. Humpty Dumpty is their best friend and inspiration.

        • SPC 6.3.1.2
          19 November 2022 at 3:55 pm
          1. A reaction to finding out your sexual partner is not the sex you thought they were, leads to questions about:
          • sex by deception;
          • sexual consent;
          • and the right to have respected your sexual orientation.

          Are you arguing that there is no such thing as informed consent to having sex with a transgender person, if this is not known in advance?

          Or are you arguing that someone is having their sexual orientation compromised when they sleep someone who is transgender without knowing this in advance?

          Sex by deception – lies about background (marital/relationship status, fake dating site profiles) …

          • Molly 6.3.1.2.1
            19 November 2022 at 4:05 pm

            I am inviting discussion on this issue.

            "Or are you arguing that someone is having their sexual orientation compromised when they sleep someone who is transgender without knowing this in advance?"

            At the very least – if that sexual orientation is known beforehand – there is a degree of disrespect, don't you think? For lesbians and gays the notion that their sexual orientation was due to the fact they just hadn't met the right "man" or "woman" was a battle seemingly won decades ago. How have we returned to this battleground?

            (IIRC, sex by deception includes non-disclosure of positive STD status as well.)

            There is only one case of successful prosecution of sexual assault in this scenario that I am aware of (in the UK):

            https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/29/gayle-newland-found-guilty-at-retrial-of-tricking-female-friend-into-sex

            AFAIK, Gayle did not identify as transgender so the discussion can be about the right of both parties to information before engaging in intimate acts.

            • Molly 6.3.1.2.1.1
              19 November 2022 at 4:20 pm

              Successful prosecution regarding non-disclosure of HIV status:

              https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/331698/man-sentenced-after-knowingly-infecting-partner-with-hiv

              The charge was grievous bodily harm with reckless disregard:

              "Mikio Filitonga was found guilty by jury in March of a charge of grievous bodily harm with reckless disregard and in the Auckland District Court was sentenced to two years and 10 months in jail yesterday."

              I suspect the obligation for disclosure falls under public health regulations:

              "Filitonga tested positive for the virus on 27 February 2013.

              On 26 July that year he was told of his legal obligations as an HIV positive man by a nurse."

            • SPC 6.3.1.2.1.2
              19 November 2022 at 4:43 pm

              In practice only informed consent as to public health (after instruction of a requirement to inform others of an infection) applies to date.

              … the UK case cited is truly outlier (given the person was willing to not see – be blindfolded – and wanted penetrative sex with a male partner), as conviction required belief that the victim did not recognise her best female friend (a lesbian) as the “male” she was dating.

              One wonders if long term relationships (between a transgender person and another) could later be posed as having been without informed consent, once they end. Bitter break-ups …

              • Molly …
                19 November 2022 at 5:20 pm

                "In practice only informed consent as to public health (after instruction of a requirement to inform others of an infection) applies to date."

                That distinction is made in the paper below, which has some other interesting considered scenarios, including some similar to after breakup dissatisfaction.

                The UK case is interesting, and is it a scenario that is more likely to occur with young people who are likely to be more compliant and uncertain in sexual relationships, or is it something else – or nothing else, just a one-off?

                It appears that the woman convicted was unable to acknowledge her same-sex orientation, so created a persona (NOT gender identity) in order to separate that orientation as a method of dealing with it.

                That can be understood.

                And the successful mechanics of subterfuge seems like something that may be interpreted as willful blindness.

                While that cannot be discounted, it must also be considered that the young woman who was convicted also became intimate friends with the woman who was misled, and would likely have influenced her to accept the conditions of contact and intimacy laid down by her male persona.

                So, it was a lengthy, and sustained level of deception which may not be duplicated again.

                However, the impact on the woman – who is heterosexual, upon discovering that her sexual partner was a female – was reported as significant. Her response indicates her level of distress.

          • Molly 6.3.1.2.2
            19 November 2022 at 4:15 pm

            There's also a 2013 NZ specific paper on this topic that provides further points of discussion:

            https://www.otago.ac.nz/law/research/journals/otago065276.pdf

            They make a point about the distinction between informed consent in medicine, as opposed to informed consent in personal intimate relationships (P 14):

            2. ‘Informed’ consent to sexual activity

            ‘Informed consent’ is a concept commonly associated with medical law.
            50 Professor Skegg explains, generally: “while competent lawyers have long realised that not all apparent consents are effective in law, the use of the expression ‘informed consent’ does serve to remind all concerned that an uninformed consent may not suffice for a particular legal…purpose.”

            51 The Medical Council of New Zealand has described ‘informed consent’ as follows:

            52 Informed consent is an interactive process between a doctor and patient where the patient gains an understanding of his or her condition and receives an explanation of the options available including an assessment of the expected risks, side effects, benefits and costs of each option and thus is able to make an informed choice and give their informed consent.

            The difficulties in requiring that consent to sexual activity be ‘informed’ in this manner are readily apparent. Sexual relations are not engaged in on a detached doctor-patient type basis with duties of care and disclosure owed by one party to the other. The criminal law would be unworkable in practice if it required human passion and physical intimacy to be preceded by total disclosure or medical-level explanation by each party to the other of the risks, side effects, benefits and costs of that sexual activity.

            Nevertheless, a number of cases have said that consent to sexual activity must be “full, voluntary, free and informed”.

            53 Whether ‘informed’ consent goes beyond the need for a basic “understanding of the situation” is unclear,54 as the relevant cases show.

      • Anker 6.3.2
        19 November 2022 at 1:26 pm

        What are the rates of violence against trans and non binary Ad? or don't we have them yet?

        We do have homicide figures and the rates of murder against trans or non binary are low compared to the rest of the population.

        Last murder of a transgender person was a cross dresser whose drug deal when wrong in or around 2009.

        BTW I condeme violence against anyone in the most whole hearted terms and believe protection from such, if it can be provided is paramount.

        • Ad 6.3.2.1
          19 November 2022 at 1:33 pm

          I put the 2021 NZCVS in the above.

          NZCVS-LGB-Final.pdf (justice.govt.nz)

          "LGB adults are more than twice as likely to experience intimate partner violence (IPV) and/or sexual violence (68% of bisexual adults and 57% of lesbian or gay adults have experienced IPV and/or sexual violence) compared to the NZ average (29%) based on the NZCVS."

          I'd expect this will get more specific now that the categories are easier to self-identify.

          • Molly 6.3.2.1.1
            19 November 2022 at 1:40 pm

            "I'd expect this will get more specific now that the categories are easier to self-identify."

            Why would that be more specific?

            Also, wouldn't there also be potential for loss of accuracy regarding violence statistics in regards to sex and sexual orientation if people can self-identify in and out of statistical groups?

            • Ad 6.3.2.1.1.1
              19 November 2022 at 2:46 pm

              Easier to identify now that there's clearer legal identification.

              In answer to your second question: no it's so small it will statistically wrinse out.

              • Molly …
                19 November 2022 at 3:09 pm

                "In answer to your second question: no it's so small it will statistically wrinse out."

                Even if I agreed – which I don't – wouldn't that reasoning work both ways?

                • Ad …
                  19 November 2022 at 3:30 pm

                  Let's wait and see but my suspicion is less than minor.

                  Coming up in March next year is the census, and it will be the first to ask everyone about their gender, sexual identity, and whether they have any variations of sex, getting straight to questions on ones':

                  • gender
                  • sexual identity (question only asked of people aged 15 years or older)
                  • variations of sex characteristics (question only asked of people aged 15 years or older).

                  They can't help but to a better job than last time.

                  • Molly …
                    19 November 2022 at 3:55 pm

                    "They can't help but to a better job than last time."

                    A better job in what respect?

                    Giving someone an opportunity to declare an identity?

                    And/or gathering accurate and useful data in terms of identifying effective means to reduce violence?

                    ie. The gender question is now ambiguous.

                    Does it refer to sex or gender identity? Even if intended for one or the other, will it be answered consistently? If that cannot be assumed, accuracy is already compromised.

                    "variations of sex characteristics "

                    Also self-subjective, so not particularly useful in quantitive analysis.

                    I do agree that good quality data is necessary, however, I am not reassured it will be achieved.

                    • Molly …
                      19 November 2022 at 4:42 pm

                      Sorry, just realised that we've moved onto the census, rather than the surveys initially discussed, in which case the reference to violence is limited.

                      The rest in regards to accuracy in terms of analysis, and effective use remains.

                    • Visubversa …
                      19 November 2022 at 5:06 pm

                      Do they have a definition of these "variation of sex characteristics" or are they lumping people with Differences or Variations of Sex Development – which are medical conditions (used to be called "Intersex") in with sexuality and/or gender identity? Unfortunately, these 40 or so known syndromes have been weaponised by gender idealogues in an attempt to prove that sex is some sort of spectrum. It provides no such evidence in that those that are fertile – and many are not- produce either sperm or eggs so do not create additional sexes and certainly do not change sex. It is just more idealogical obfuscation which seems to have been swallowed wholesale by lawmakers.

                    • RedLogix …
                      19 November 2022 at 11:11 pm

                      Personally I keep thinking that the recent proliferation of endocrine disruptors from all plastics, pesticides and soy based food sources may well have something to do with all of this.

                      https://www.niehs.nih.gov/health/topics/agents/endocrine/index.cfm

                    • Molly …
                      20 November 2022 at 9:18 am

                      @RedLogix

                      Endocrine disruption is an interesting area. Since reading Rachel Carson's Silent Spring, I think that determining if there is an environmental factor is always a question that should be answered.

                      I do think that around this topic of gender identity other factors come into play, especially taking into account the ever expanding notion of what falls under this umbrella. (eg. Drag Queens ) and the Q+ coterie.

                      Starting point will be the old-school transsexuals, so distress due to dysphoria will still be a part. But it is a small part now, and nowhere near the whole. (NB. Current gender ideology considers that expecting distress and even a dysphoria/gender incongruence diagnosis is transphobic).

                      After looking at many sources, including from those who identify as transgender, I think there are a multitude of different routes to self-identification.

                      Identifying the most common, and the demographic of who travels each path is important.

                      Despite the collective moniker, the starting points, journeys and destinations are often markedly different.

                    • RedLogix …
                      20 November 2022 at 11:36 am

                      @Molly

                      Yes – I was not suggesting that widespread endocrine disruption was the sole driving factor here – but I get the sense it has been rather overshadowed by the far more visible and noisier cultural debate.

                      And as an engineer my mind naturally gravitates toward possible root causes.

                      Among the many disastrous mistakes of the medical community it is the often overlooked DES debacle:

                      Diethylstilboestrol (DES) was a medication commonly prescribed to prevent miscarriage, between 1946 and 1971 in Australia. If your mother took DES while she was pregnant with you, then you are a DES daughter or DES son. We now know that DES exposure in the womb can cause a range of reproductive changes and fertility problems later in life.

                      Oestrogen is one of the female sex hormones that regulates the menstrual cycle. DES was a synthetic oestrogen medication, sold under many different brand names.

                      Doctors and obstetricians commonly prescribed DES to women who had fertility problems or who were at risk of miscarriage, usually as a pill. Sometimes, doctors gave the medication along with vitamin supplements and some women may not have realised they were taking any medications.

                      Anyone who was exposed to DES needs special healthcare, even if they are not having any obvious health problems.

                      While DES turned out to be a remarkably powerful disruptor, many of the chemicals listed in my reference in my first comment are rather similar especially Bisphenol A (BPA) – in its estrogen like behaviour:

                      In the early 1930s, the British biochemist Edward Charles Dodds tested BPA as an artificial estrogen, but found it to be 37,000 times less effective than estradiol. Dodds eventually developed a structurally similar compound,(DES), which was used as a synthetic estrogen drug in women and animals until it was banned due to its risk of causing cancer; the ban on use of DES in humans came in 1971 and in animals, in 1979. BPA was never used as a drug. BPA's ability to mimic the effects of natural estrogen derives from the similarity of phenol groups on both BPA and estradiol, which enable this synthetic molecule to trigger estrogenic pathways in the body. Typically phenol-containing molecules similar to BPA are known to exert weak estrogenic activities, thus it is also considered an endocrine disrupter (ED) and estrogenic chemical.

                      Xenoestrogens is another category the chemical BPA fits under because of its capability to interrupt the network that regulates the signals which control the reproductive development in humans and animals.

                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_effects_of_Bisphenol_A

                      BPA is almost ubiquitous in our environment and while it is mostly chemically bound to other components, small amounts of it inevitably hydrolyse and become biologically available.

                      All this is subject to some degree of controversy among the specialist community – but frankly I would be very keen to see this issue get more political visibility. There are much wider implications around human fertility than just the trans debate we are having here.

                    • Molly …
                      20 November 2022 at 12:27 pm

                      @RedLogix

                      The fertility issue is huge – and one I occasionally spend time on. I think the factors you have listed are unfortunately only two entries in a long list. The DES, I'd come across before. Of interest is the sentence that follows advice on medical vigilance:

                      • There is no evidence that the third generation is affected by DES exposure.

                      I'd add: as yet.

                      BPA is a concern, which has led to old school personal preferences for food a drink storage, although it can't fully be avoided.

                      Small amounts are enough to have significant impacts on the endocrine system.

                      Recently, are acknowledging long-term health impacts from the contraceptive pill.

                      The interference of the endocrine system that is labelled affirming healthcare is not informed by robust clinical evidence. That fact should concern everyone regardless of perspective.

                  • Sabine …
                    19 November 2022 at 6:14 pm

                    Gender – is that sex – large gamete vs small gamete?

                    Sexual identity – is that based on gender or sexual attraction? There is a huge difference between 'same gender' attraction or 'same sex' attraction.

                    i.e.

                    transwomen – transwomen = lesbian = same gender attraction

                    transwomen – female = lesbian = same gender attraction

                    human female – female = lesbian = same gender attraction

                    transman + female = hetero = opposite gender attraction

                    transwoman + male = hetero = opposite gender attraction

                    male – female – hetero= opposite gender attraction

                    transman + male = gay = same gender attraction

                    transman + transman = gay -= same gender attraction

                    male + male = gay = same gender attraction

                    Glossary:

                    Transwomen – male presenting as a female

                    Transman – female presenting as male

                    male – adult human male – standard edition

                    female – adult human female – standard edition

                    Non binary – everyone who can't be bothered really playing the game but wants some of that transcred cause being male/female is so boring and cis. 🙂

                    You can now fill forms out in which you can be "other".

                    And thus, the male that got locked into a female prisons for a short stay of 9 years and a few month for going into into a restaurant on a stabbing spree stabbing two and slashing the face of of his ex is a women crime and a women on women crime and everyone will have to pretend to have been assaulted by a 'woman'. She/her and all that stubble and jazz.

                    I mean if you want to devalue accurate record keeping about the countries population growth, future population growths, about crime, and such that is the way to go.

                    We might as well be counting sheep and declaring them cows.

                    • Molly …
                      19 November 2022 at 9:20 pm

                      "We might as well be counting sheep and declaring them cows."

                      Wool and dairy forecasts may be a bit off …laugh

          • Anker 6.3.2.1.2
            19 November 2022 at 1:49 pm

            I knew about the higher rates of intimate partner violence amongst lesbian couples.

            That was one of the surprising findings to come out of the fabulous Dunedin Multidiscliplinary Study. I have searched that study to see what if anything they have found out about transgender people and to date have found nothing. Suspect that is to do with the cohorts age group (pre gender ideology and queer theory taking hold) and also because the cohort is around 1000, just not enough numbers

        • Visubversa 6.3.2.2
          19 November 2022 at 2:48 pm

          And don't forget Toko Shane Winter (who demands to be called Ashley) who was convicted for the sadistic torture and murder of a young woman in 2019. The NZ media showered him with female pronouns and called him a woman several times right throughout his trial, conviction and sentencing for this crime. They had become a bit more balanced when it came to reporting his unsuccessful appeal.

      • Anker 6.3.3
        19 November 2022 at 1:43 pm

        The govt spening money on gender affirming care is highly problematic and may lead to some of the situations overseas, for example the gender clinic at the Tavistock Clinic in London. After senior paedeatrian Dr Hillary Cass was half way through her review she ordered the clinic be closed due to safety concerns. A highly unsual move for an NHS trust.

        The concerns were around the use of puberty blockers, automatic affirmation of gender identity and the lack of a comprehensive assessment for youngster who most often had significant co-morbidities with their gender dysphoria. The Tavistock is also facing a significant class action taken by families and patients who have been damaged by this approach.

        But if you want to sing the praises of this govt for going down this dubious pathway, then don't let me stop you.

        Remember that prior to 1990s the rates of transgender people was something like one in thirty thousand. Teen girls where almost unheard of in the early days of the Tavistock clinic. Then around the time of the invention of the smart phone there was an exponential growith in teen girls presenting to gender clinics. Many of them had been exposed to trans information in chat rooms. Social contagian if very common in adolescent girls. We have seen it with girls with anoerexia, bulimia, self harm and now gender dysphoria. The govt in endorsing gender affirming care , is endorsing the wrong approach for these troubled youngsters

    • Temp ORary 6.4
      19 November 2022 at 12:58 pm

      Just finishing lunchtime and glanced back at this site. Too many responses to reply to now, I will get onto that this evening if I have the energy.

    • Drowsy M. Kram 6.5
      19 November 2022 at 2:36 pm

      "I don't comment much on this site anymore; given the suffocating transphobia that I find it healthier to avoid subjecting myself to."

      As those prone to racism, misogyny and homophobia carve out niches on social media to support their ideas, an easy path is not to engage with that toxicity. Good on you Temp ORary for having the courage to state that you feel you have encountered "suffocating transphobia" here. Hope it's OK to post links in response. Kia kaha.

      Hate speech debate overshadows Royal Commission progress [2 Nov 2022]
      The last thing communities under siege from hate speech want is a repeat of last year.

      Our children are watching and learning as hate and disinformation are normalized.

      Reported User-Generated Online Hate Speech: The ‘Ecosystem’, Frames, and Ideologies [19 Aug 2022]

      The Supported Counterspeech Alternative

      The central role of empathy in reducing exclusionary behaviour is an interesting observation – several online questionaires are available for assessing empathy.

      Dynamics of online hate and misinformation [11 Nov 2021]
      Our results show that, coherently with Godwin’s law, online debates tend to degenerate towards increasingly toxic exchanges of views.

      Sentiment Analysis Scale

      • LEVEL 1, disagreement – Speech involving disagreement with a particular idea or statement. It seeks to challenge the claims, ideas, and beliefs of the addressee in an offensive and intolerant manner.
      • LEVEL 2, negative actions and reactions– Direct insult or verbal attack against the one to whom the hate speech and intolerance refer to
      • LEVEL 3, negative characterization – Speech involving negative non-violent actions related to the group to which it is addressed, followed by stereotyping, belittling, ridicule or public stigmatization.
      • LEVEL 4, demonizing and dehumanizing – Speech that includes qualifications for the other as the embodiment of a certain evil, inhumanity, and assigning a subhuman status to entire groups in society.
      • LEVEL 5, incitement to violence – Speech that calls for physical harm and specifies ways of violent behavior.
      • LEVEL 6, death – Speech that makes explicit calls for killing or physical elimination.

      Gay hate speech case in court as review of law announced [31 Oct 2022]
      “My view on homo marriage is that the Bible never mentions it so I’m not against them getting married … As long as a bullet goes through their head the moment they kiss,” the pastor said.

      Hate speech in Aotearoa New Zealand: Reflecting and resisting
      [18 June 2022]
      In the month since our paper was released, dangerous speech increased significantly. Violent, vulgar and vicious discourse against public figures, such as the Prime Minister, MPs who are women, academics, journalists, and other senior public officials continues to grow, with increasingly graphic and violent content. Threats of death, rape, and intense violence are now commonplace – and daily – within the domestic online ecologies studied by The Disinformation Project. Such discourses are intertwined with misogyny, queerphobia, racism, xenophobia, anti-Semitism, and ableism. These discourses focus on, seek to amplify, and entrench differences, rather than notions of cohesion and shared identity. Instead of focussing on what binds us together, mis- and disinformation producers are increasingly highlighting difference, and the antagonistic negotiation of it.

      • Molly 6.5.1
        19 November 2022 at 3:06 pm

        "Good on you Temp ORary for having the courage to state that you feel you have encountered "suffocating transphobia" here."

        I believe what would be truly admirable, is when someone who makes this accusation actually posts examples of it.

        "Hate speech debate overshadows Royal Commission progress [2 Nov 2022]
        The last thing communities under siege from hate speech want is a repeat of last year."

        Is this what you are referring to? – the successful prosecution of Richard Jacobs:

        "New Zealand has laws against hate speech but they only apply to discrimination on the basis of race, ethnicity or national origin. The letter of the law is so broad that courts have adopted a much narrower interpretation since it was passed in 1993, meaning only a single successful prosecution for hate speech has occurred in the past 29 years. That case was last year, when Tauranga man Richard Jacobs posted a YouTube video calling for genocide and a race war against Māori."

        If it is, I'm going to make an assumption (correct me if I am wrong) that you do not disagree with either the prosecution or the success.

        So, is it that you wish that more prosecutions take place?

        1. Because many others are calling for genocide on the basis of a protected characteristic?

        2. Because the level of genocide is too high a bar for hate speech, and you want that determinator to be something else? What do you propose?

        Your links to Canada etc are unexceptional, particularly given that Canada is justifying a lot of atrocities in the name of progression these days. A trial currently is taking place for a nurse in regards to her speech:

        https://en.protothema.gr/nurse-amy-hamm-fights-for-sex-based-freedom-of-expression-today-in-court/

        Is this Canadian distinction the one you seek to emulate here in NZ?

        As for the domestic The Disinformation Project – is it truly possible that there are those on the left that do not recognise The Ministry of Truth when it lands on our shores?

        • Molly 6.5.1.1
          19 November 2022 at 3:16 pm

          Re the current court case, it will be informative to have written and recorded the police's decision not to prosecute and why, and the judgement:

          "Timmins was backing the case of Auckland man Russell Hoban against the attorney-general about a West Auckland pastor’s sermon, posted on Facebook in April 2017, that called for gay people to be shot. Timmins described the pastor as “self-titled” and said the sermon was recorded in the man’s lounge.

          “My view on homo marriage is that the Bible never mentions it so I’m not against them getting married … As long as a bullet goes through their head the moment they kiss,” the pastor said.

          No charges were laid for inciting violence against gay people."

          Left the links in because they are necessary for those who haven't read the article.

          • SPC 6.5.1.1.1
            19 November 2022 at 4:02 pm

            Given the obvious incitement to violence against those practicing homosexuality (as indicated by a marriage), the police failure to prosecute would seem inexplicable. Might be a next time we will warning case …

            Generally most people would oppose threats of violence to individuals or groups of individuals (race, ethnicity, origin and extend that to sex, gender, sexuality, religion).

            The question would be around incitement to violence (such violence being a hate crime) and then onto hate itself.

            • Molly 6.5.1.1.1.1
              19 November 2022 at 4:37 pm

              Given that they were successful in prosecuting Richard Jacobs, above, I think it's really important to show how they made that decision.

              There is not enough details in the article, that perhaps the published decision will provide.

              I suspect the Jacobs case was easily identified as a call for genocide: "calling for genocide and a race war against Māori." whereas the Timmins case was related not to a call for genocide because of homosexuality, but the self-declared pastor's response to the acceptance of gay marriage. A small difference, but it should be clarified if this is the interpretation.

  7. Sabine 7
    19 November 2022 at 12:39 pm

    Well i guess these colonial and societal construct are just getting their deserved come uppance being locked up with a male offender who stabbed three people – one of them the ex of the offender who stabbed the colonial and societal construct in the lungs and slashed the face.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/waikato-times/news/130471744/restaurant-triple-stabber-jailed-for-nine-years-and-three-months

    Lets all feel ashamed for thinking that this is wrong.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/ReduxxMag/status/1592581398787133440

    • Anker 7.1
      19 November 2022 at 1:27 pm

      brilliant Sabine

    • Molly 7.2
      19 November 2022 at 1:32 pm

      Perhaps a "reflective circle" is required – such as the one a young high-school student had to attend when she challenged the presence of a boy in the girls changing room:

      https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11366041/amp/School-let-trans-girl-making-threats-girl-complained-using-girls-bathroom.html

      "It also claims that the school turned a blind eye to ‘death threats’ made against Blake by the transgender student, who said after the locker room incident ‘I’m going to f***ing kill Blake Allen’.

      They are said to have been selective in their discipline, despite suspending Blake for two days for 'misgendering' the student, then ordering her to take part in a 'reflective circle' where she returned.

      That saw equity coordinator Jamie Connor and other students attempt to brainwash Blake into seeing the error of her ways, it is alleged. "

      I'm sure there are a few on here that would enjoy the get-together – I mean the opportunity to "reflect".

      The only difficulty I can see would be to find someone to volunteer as " equity coordinator" for the aforementioned shameful ones…wink

      • Anker 7.2.1
        19 November 2022 at 1:53 pm

        Christ! The reflective circle. I happen to be re-reading 1984 at the moment.

        Yes let this young woman experience the reflective circle. We must eradicate wrong think!

        In my life time it has taken so much work (by other women) to tell women and girls they can trust their instincts and if they speak up they will be heard

      • SPC 7.2.2
        19 November 2022 at 3:01 pm

        That might explain the black mirror (TV series name) as to be being enlightened in such a circle, as to agreeing with the group opinion.

  8. Alan 8
    19 November 2022 at 1:03 pm

    According to the Herald today, Winston Peters for the first time ever in his political career, is ruling out working with two parties prior to the election – bold move. (Premium content so have not attached)

    Judging by some of the comments on this blog, this could be a clever tactic.

    • Incognito 8.1
      19 November 2022 at 1:06 pm

      It doesn’t matter if it is ‘premium content’ or not, you should still provide a link for verification for and by others, preferably with a note/warning about it being behind a paywall or subscription-only.

    • Anker 8.2
      19 November 2022 at 1:29 pm

      Do you know Alan, is Winston saying he won't go with Labour or the Greens?

      Wonder if it was hiding He puapua from him before the last election or Trev tresspassin g him that did it. But actually maybe I am wrong, perhaps he is happy to go with L and G and it is some other party he's ruling out. Opps just seen from the headline its Labour plus???

      • Alan 8.2.1
        19 November 2022 at 1:56 pm

        L and MP

      • Sabine 8.2.2
        19 November 2022 at 3:57 pm

        from the link

        To double-check whether there was any wriggle room in his position on Labour, he is asked if he is ruling out working with a Jacinda Ardern-led Government.

        “Most definitely,” he says and he reflects on his previous two stints in government, first with National and with the fifth Labour Government, which he described as trusted relationships.

        “When I shook hands with Jim Bolger and Helen Clark, ask them whether I could be trusted. When I shake someone’s hand, and they deliberately mislead me and my caucus, who are a critical part of a coalition, they don’t get a second chance to do that again.

        “I regret that. It’s sad that it has happened but those are the facts and they cannot deny it.

    • SPC 8.3
      19 November 2022 at 2:52 pm

      (based on not having read anything paywalled at the Herald)

      Not actually true – he has until now ruled out being in a coalition with either ACT and Greens.

      Thus campaigning as the centrist partner of either National or Labour (reducing ACT and Greens as support partner of one coalition or the other).

      He intends to campaign like he did in 1996, against the government. But in this case rules out forming a coalition afterwards.

      The option he proffers is National on the right (taking votes off ACT) and NZ First (taking votes Labour won off National in 2020) in the centre.

      In dividing against Labour and MP he is making fear of "He Puapua" (indigenous peoples rights and Treaty partnership concepts) front and centre of a "majoritarian democracy" alliance between National and NZF (nostalgia for the simplicity of the pavlova paradise assimilationist age baby boomers were raised up in – as per the Brexit vote in the UK). Winston is doing a Boris.

      In not excluding ACT or Greens, Peters leaves open a competition between them to be the support partner to a National-NZF coalition if that is required.

      His technical difficulty – he will struggle to gain as many votes in the centre as he might want/need if he does not rule out a coalition including ACT. And ACT could rule out supporting a National-NZF coalition if they were not included.

    • observer 8.4
      19 November 2022 at 4:27 pm

      Winston Peters for the first time ever in his political career

      His language directed at Bolger and National before 1996 was even stronger than his criticism of Ardern. It meant nothing.

      But let's face it, we've had this dance many times before, and in the end it comes down to the same old question: do we learn from experience or not? Note the language used: "rule out" … "work with" … To quote Game Of Thrones … "words are wind".

      2023 Winston: "I did not say that, you in the media always get it wrong", etc, etc.

      When he writes a legally-binding document with affidavit that says "I refuse to be Deputy PM or Foreign Minister or take any role in government offered by Labour even if they offer it and National don't … also, here is my bond of a million dollars which I will forfeit if I break this promise" – then it'll mean something.

      Until then, Winston gonna Winston. Fools gonna believe.

      • Incognito 8.4.1
        19 November 2022 at 4:37 pm

        I prefer Seymour’s twerking to Winston’s Tango For One, by, for, and with Winston. Winston goes for the sentimental value of nostalgia and glory days of the past that never really were. Trotter will love it.

      • observer 8.4.2
        19 November 2022 at 4:46 pm

        Winston Peters' speech, before 2005 election:

        "We are in this for our policies – not the perks of office. …

        Now the voters know New Zealand First will not be in government – by our own choice – they also deserve to know that we intend to serve New Zealanders, as we always have, by keeping the next government honest.

        … It involves for my colleagues a real sacrifice, but we willingly make it. For my part, I never took as deputy Prime Minister ministerial cars or a house, so we genuinely don’t care about the baubles of office."

        https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA0509/S00180.htm

        (and so after the election, he became Helen Clark's Foreign Minister, and took other portfolios too).

  9. Ad 9
    19 November 2022 at 1:29 pm

    A big shoutout to the Capital Kiwi Project for reaching their conservation milestone of releasing 250 Kiwi onto 23,000 hectares of mostly private land in the Wellington region.

    In particular to the landowners of the big Terawhiti block, Kinnoull, Meridian, Mill Creek Farms, Papanui Boomrock, Pikarere, many of which have been in families for generations.

    Kiwi to call the capital home as huge conservation project comes to fruition | Stuff.co.nz

    This is a private protected area larger than Abel Tasman National Park. This kind of project takes years and years to do, so also well done to all the Trustees in particular previous Mayor Kerry Prendergast.

  10. Ad 10
    19 November 2022 at 2:44 pm

    Latest New Zealand deprivation index is out.

    Check out the sea of red in Auckland's west and south. Anywhere east of Tauranga. Most of the West Coast.

    New Zealand Index of Deprivation, 2018 (NZDep2018) (arcgis.com)

    This is tough reading when compared against the previous ones.

    • ianmac 10.1
      19 November 2022 at 4:06 pm

      Interesting Ad. Though those figures up to 2018. Areas gone redder 2013 to 2018. Not sure if that is meaningful?

    • weka 10.2
      19 November 2022 at 4:54 pm

      be good to see a post on this, esp with the comparison.

      Is the upper West Coast related to the floods of recent years, or have they exacerbated an already dire situation?

      Western Southland is interesting too.

  11. Poission 11
    19 November 2022 at 3:50 pm

    First extreme cold event of the season starts in US with Buffalo hit by snow lake effect and 4 foot falls,due to ridging event in Alaska.

    NE US will be susceptible to energy outages (as a number of other loc) during prolonged weather events.NE very marginal due to reliance on fuel oil/LNG and Diesel with high cost burdens.

    https://twitter.com/SStapczynski/status/1593466063437471745

    https://twitter.com/NWSBUFFALO/status/1593422519297445888?cxt=HHwWgMCo_djV_JwsAAAA

  12. SPC 12
    19 November 2022 at 5:27 pm

    Given most of the human beings receiving puberty blockers are females and most of the teens receiving gender related surgery are female (breast removal), it is not surprising people are relating this to girls being tomboys, puberty transformation struggles and teenage female body image issues rather than to an actual greater gender issue for females than for those born male at those ages.

    This would explain the move of late Sweden and onto UK (and now in the USA) to less physiological and more psychological intervention. The do no harm approach then follows the approach of counsellors as to teens and sexuality, not to rush to identify but offer affirmative support to their personal development and understanding over time.

  14. joe90 14
    19 November 2022 at 8:15 pm

    NASA video showing monthly global temperature changes between 1880 and 2022.

    https://climate.nasa.gov/climate_resources/300/video-climate-spiral/

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