Open mike 19/11/2023

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, November 19th, 2023 - 93 comments
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For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

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93 comments on “Open mike 19/11/2023 ”

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  1. Mac1 1
    19 November 2023 at 9:21 am

    Following on from that Sunday Column, cited here on theStandard, by David Slack on the popcorn spectacle provided by the Three Willies (or is that two Willies and a Won't He?), I received last week an email from the National Party suggesting I make a donation.

    It began, "Voting is open in our critical Port Waikato by-election.

    National and Christopher Luxon need this seat to strengthen our National-led government.

    But (my name deleted), after we successfully defeated Labour in the general election our war chest is running low."

    All that money spent and the three Willies still haven't released their album, "Closing the Deal".

    Songs touted for this album include "The Party is Over", "Always on my Mind", "On the Road Again" and "Blue Eyes Crying in the Rain", written by that other Willie, Willie Nelson.

    • Patricia Bremner 1.1
      19 November 2023 at 6:32 pm

      Brilliant Mac1. "On the Road Again" being our favourite.laughyes

    • Eco Maori 1.2
      20 November 2023 at 12:59 pm

      You see whanao I never used hard drugs now the state is forcing me to take their drugs WTF

      • Eco Maori 1.2.1
        20 November 2023 at 1:03 pm

        The state is bent as

        • Eco Maori 1.2.1.1
          20 November 2023 at 10:09 pm

          These pieces of hippy you Tai are forcesing there mental drugs down my neck they don't have a judge ordered to make me take their poisons .

          That's what the act say have to have a judge ordered if one refuses there drugs

          Whano it true the drug companies are giving doctors q kick back to push their crap pills.

          When you go to a doctor they for high blood pressure say take a pill instead of saying no caffeine sugar ect

          And when you are stressed they say take a pill instead of saying get more sun and eat food with higher vitamin e and rest .they now say stop smoking because now everyone knows it bad but back in the day they never said stop smoking probley getting kick backs from big tobacco to

          Ka kite ano

          Whano

  2. Muttonbird 2
    19 November 2023 at 10:15 am

    Arab forces will not go to Gaza, says Jordanian minister in rebuke of Israel

    “Hamas did not create the conflict. The conflict created Hamas,”

    Powerful stuff.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/18/arab-forces-gaza-jordan-foreign-minister-criticism-israel-us

    • Bearded Git 2.1
      19 November 2023 at 11:09 am

      Thanks for that Mutton…I particularly like and support this said by Ayman Safadi, Jordan’s foreign minister:

      "The credibility of international law had fallen victim to its selective application. “If any other country in the world did a fragment of what Israel did, it would have sanctions imposed on it from every corner of the world.”

      He said even those who accepted Israel was acting in self-defence “keep telling Israel to act within international law. It is not, so where do we go from here? Keep telling them to do it? They keep refusing to do it. People are being killed day in and day out.”

      “International law has to apply to all. The message seems to be that Israel can do whatever it wants."

      • Belladonna 2.1.1
        19 November 2023 at 12:23 pm

        Because Jordan is an active and willing participant in UN sanctions…. not….

        https://www.reuters.com/article/us-libya-security-un-idUSKBN1XL2E6/

        "International law has to apply to all" – the /sarc/ tag should have been applied!

        The argument appears to be that international sanctions should apply to Israel, but the Arab allies can continue supplying Hamas with weapons (note, Hamas as a terrorist organization, already has international sanctions applied, which Jordan, among other ME countries, has happily ignored).

        I don't recall Jordan describing "Denial of food, medicine and fuel" to Kurds in Iraq; or to civilians impacted by the civil wars in Yemen, Syria or Ethiopia – as "war crimes". How do these situations differ from what is going on in Gaza?

        Indeed, Jordan rejected the UN claim that Saudi air-strikes in Yemen were war crimes.

        https://www.newarab.com/news/jordan-rejects-damning-un-human-rights-report-yemen

        Or, indeed, the actual ethnic cleansing going on in Nagorno Karabakh – between Armenia and Azerbaijan, right now. Anyone expecting a 'right of return' should not hold their breath….

        https://reliefweb.int/report/azerbaijan/guarantee-right-return-nagorno-karabakh

        How about another couple of quotes:

        He said Jordan would do “whatever it takes to stop” the displacement of Palestinians. “We will never allow that to happen; in addition to it being a war crime, it would be a direct threat to our national security.

        So, the real reason that they won't take Palestinian refugees is that they see them as a threat.

        And, adding the final sentence to the original quote:

        He refused to join the calls to liken Hamas to Islamic State. “Hamas did not create the conflict. The conflict created Hamas,” he said, adding: “You cannot bomb an idea out of existence.

        So, reinforcing that the 'idea' of Israel being destroyed – is the founding basis of Hamas – and explaining why there can be no peace between Hamas and Israel.

        And, not even being willing to participate in post-war reconstruction

        “There will be no Arab troops going to Gaza. None. We are not going to be seen as the enemy.”

        He said all Arab governments were agreed on this, and that any discussion of Gaza’s future now was impossible. “By entertaining that, we are telling the Israeli government: ‘Do whatever you want. Go destroy Gaza. No one is stopping you and once you are done we will clean up your mess.’ No, we will not.”

        So, if peace breaks out (though some miracle), tomorrow – no Arab country will participate in the reconstruction.

        Who does he think should clean up the mess afterwards? Clearly not Israel (completely unacceptable to the Palestinian Arabs – not to mention the ME countries). Hamas is clearly unacceptable to Israel (because, yanno, terrorist organization which continually fires missles at Israel), as well as not having the capacity to govern in normal times, let alone carry out major reconstruction. Who does that leave? Clearly not the 'concerned neighbours'….

        • Ad 2.1.1.1
          19 November 2023 at 12:57 pm

          The really interesting difference between this Hamas war, and the 1948-9 All-Arab attack, the 1967 Six Day War, and the 1973 Yom Kippur War, is that in this war Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon are not joining forces to actually attack Israel with everything they have in order to wipe the entire state of Israel out.

          They are akin to pro-Palestinian protesters: doing fuck all about it other than emoting another round of their feelings.
          None of those Arab countries will take in Palestinian refugees.

          So their leaders just keep making speeches and have discussions about 'the law'.

          The net result of no-one wanting to stabilise Gaza out of terrorist hands, is that Israel will have to do it. At which point all those Arab countries are of course "appalled" and smiling all the way to the next armed conflict, which suits their funder client states in Iran and UAE and Dubai just fine.

          • Belladonna 2.1.1.1.1
            19 November 2023 at 1:11 pm

            I agree. In addition, many of the Arab countries have been coming to a live-and-let-live relationship with Israel over the last few years. There is speculation that the timing of the Hamas attack was planned to disrupt the signing of an agreement between Israel and Saudi Arabia.

            And, given that all of those wars ended in spectacular failure for the Arab countries, and that their armies haven't got noticeably better over the last 50 years, discretion is almost certainly the better part of valour.

          • AB 2.1.1.1.2
            19 November 2023 at 1:47 pm

            "None of those Arab countries will take in Palestinian refugees."

            I'm not here to defend any Arab country – but why should they offer to do this? Particularly because if this offer is on the table, it constitutes only an incentive to Israel to keep killing Palestinians and destroying the infrastructure of Gaza until they all flee. And it seems pretty plain that this is the Israeli (or at least Likud) end game – expulsion out of Gaza and elimination of those who stay behind. The perfidiousness of the Arab states does not change the nature of what may become one of the worst humanitarian crimes in a long time.

            • UncookedSelachimorpha 2.1.1.1.2.1
              19 November 2023 at 2:32 pm

              …it constitutes only an incentive to Israel to keep killing Palestinians and destroying the infrastructure of Gaza until they all flee.

              Oopsy, you let the mask slip a little there. So force Palestinian civilians to stay in harms way, i.e. use them as a human shield.

              I can see how the hamas worldview might appeal to you.

              • adam …
                19 November 2023 at 3:06 pm

                Oopsy, you let the mask slip a little there. So force Palestinian civilians to stay in harms way, i.e. use them as a human shield.

                Wow, your own straw man, or did you get some help from the IDF?

                Why should people be forced to leave their homeland?

                Why should people be forced to become refugees?

                Oh your world view is Palestinians are less than human and have no rights, because they have terrorists in their midst?

              • AB …
                19 November 2023 at 5:56 pm

                "I can see how the hamas worldview might appeal to you."

                Oh dear. It doesn't take long for total silliness to appear. From what I know of the "hamas worldview", I find it and their actions on October 7 totally repellent.

            • Ad 2.1.1.1.2.2
              19 November 2023 at 2:35 pm

              Egypt managed Gaza until the end of 1967 through a military governor. But is now building a most massive wall and gate against them.

              Jordan's administration of the West Bank officially ended in 1988. Jordan welcomed Palestinians after the 1948 war and after the Six Day War. However fighting broke out in 1971 with Hezbolla and proto-Hamas since they thought they could actually take over the state and tried to kill the King. They were expelled for seeking to wreck the country from the inside.

              Lebanon has Hezbolla now as part of their government, but Hezbolla and Hamas don't integrate at all well, and don't want Hamas to wreck the country.

              Syria administered the Golan Heights until the end of 1967. They still want it back. But they don't want Palestinians to come in and wreck the country – (such as it is).

              The UAE and Qatar and Iran massively fund Hamas who have been ruling over Gaza. Qatar only allows the Hamas leadership because they are high end hotel guests.

              Saudi Arabia certainly funds Palestinian camps through the UN, but just won't have them in.

              None of them take the actual humanitarian step of welcoming fellow Arabs as migrants inwards.

              In 1991 Kuwait expelled nearly 200,000 Palestinians out of their land. The Palestinians sided with Saddam and were on side with wrecking the country.

              In 1995 Libya expelled most of its Palestinian people – about 5,000 – because Ghadaffi believed the formation of the PLO meant they were no longer refugees. No sign of further "help" for them.

              • adam …
                19 November 2023 at 3:11 pm

                So odd that you think forcing people to become refugees is OK.

                A whole lot of shitty arguments you put forward to then say no one wants them, is just more of the fucked up dehumanising of Palestinians.

                So well done, as you strip people of the humanity, killing their children is so much simpler.

                • Ad …
                  19 November 2023 at 4:57 pm

                  I wish there were no refugees anywhere in the world.

                  I wish countries around Israel were good international citizens that allowed international law to apply to them as much as they expect it applied to Israel.

                  I wish sparkleponyrainbows.

                  There you go pet.

                  • adam …
                    19 November 2023 at 7:44 pm

                    There you go pet.

                    Did you get upset when I called out your shit? As your response is just more bullshit – countries other than those at war are evil – so killing Palestinian civilians is OK? Anymore twists of logic you want to get involved in?

                    It seems you're parroting the whole – if your not with us, you are against us. George Bush and his far right horseshit.

              • SPC …
                19 November 2023 at 5:37 pm

                1971 was PLO vs Jordan – they got kicked out into Lebanon (and became a target of Israel in 1978 and again 1982).

                Libya was responding to the founding of the PA in 1994 after the 1993 Oslo Accords (allowing the PLO/Fatah back into the West Bank).

              • AB …
                19 November 2023 at 6:05 pm

                Why should the first course of action be to find somewhere for the Palestinians to go, rather than try to prevent their expulsion by Israel and find a viable two or one-state solution? Seems extraordinary to me that one would just naturally start from that point.

            • Terry 2.1.1.1.2.3
              19 November 2023 at 5:15 pm

              NZ takes in a number of refugees from different countries. There are refugees from the Middle East and North Africa streaming into Europe. Likewise refugees from Latin America streaming into North America. Hundreds, if not thousands of refugees from Asia and the Middle East have fled to Australia.We are in the “west” are trying to help, many people on the left want to us to do more to take in as many refugees as possible. So I don’t see why the Arab countries won’t help.

              [Please correct the typo in the email address in your next comment, thanks – Incognito]

            • Belladonna 2.1.1.1.2.4
              21 November 2023 at 12:01 pm

              Well, why should any country take refugees?

              The vast majority of whom are coming from countries where they are a persecuted minority (political, ethnic, religious – the reason doesn't much matter to the victims)

              Should we all say, effectively, "stay in camps and rot – until the politics of your home country changes and you can go home"

              I don't think that this is a very 'humanitarian' position.

              Are you just as hot under the collar about the actual ethnic cleansing going on in Nagorno-Karabakh (involving Azerbaijan and Armenia)? Or does it only matter when Palestinians are involved?

          • Muttonbird 2.1.1.1.3
            19 November 2023 at 9:31 pm

            Love this. Israeli supremacists hate it when the whole of Arab nations take up arms, but then complain when they don't, and use diplomacy instead.

            You can't have it both ways.

        • Bearded Git 2.1.1.2
          19 November 2023 at 4:07 pm

          But Bella the fact that the Israelis are unlawfully using violence against civilians makes them terrorists too.

          You do not seem to be able to acknowledge that the war has been caused entirely by Israel because of the way it has illegally built a multitude of illegal settlements on ,the West Bank, stealing Palestinian land and killing many Palestinians in the process AND the Israelis have treated Gaza and it's 2 million plus Palestinians as an open jail where the people are not even permitted to swim in the sea.

          I would be fighting in the streets if I was treated like that.

          • Belladonna 2.1.1.2.1
            19 November 2023 at 6:25 pm

            So is every government which engages in wars against terrorists/insurgents (wars which may have civilian impacts) – also a terrorist government?

            That is not the usual definition. And doesn't seem to be the one proposed (by you or others) for any other state which has found itself in this situation (Russia, Yemen, Syria, Ethiopia – the list can go on).

            Following your argument, that would make the Allies in WW2 (carpet bombing of Dresden and Tokyo amongst other instances) – terrorist states.

            You do not seem to be able to acknowledge that the war has been caused entirely by Israel

            Well, yes. That is because I do not believe that this war (or any of the other attacks on Israel) have been caused "entirely by Israel".

            I think Israel has a part in the causes of the conflict. But so do Hamas (their founding document absolutely denies the right of Israel to exist – not to mention ongoing openly terrorist tactics on the civilian population); and so do the surrounding Arab states (refusing to re-settle those Palestinians who want to get out of a war zone).

            Your simplistic acceptance of 'Palestine good' 'Israel bad' – doesn't reflect the real world. Nor is it helpful in finding a solution (if, indeed, one can be found).

            Just an FYI – the population of Gaza is around 778K – not 2 million.

            https://worldpopulationreview.com/world-cities/gaza-population

            • Bearded Git 2.1.1.2.1.1
              19 November 2023 at 7:57 pm

              Bella-All quotes I have seen from many media sources have said Gaza has a population of 2 million plus. Corbyn said 2.2 million in his latest post.

              I suggest you look up the definition of terrorism. Netanyahu is a terrorist.

              You appear to be totally unaware of the history of Palestine, especially the Nakba.

              (BTW there is definitely an argument that the allies should not have carpet bombed Dresden and other places in Germany. Similarly the Americans probably didn't need to destroy as many cities as they did in Japan and they certainly didn't need to drop the second atomic bomb)

              • Belladonna …
                19 November 2023 at 11:15 pm

                I'm pretty well acquainted with the history of Israel and Palestine, also the Middle East, and the colonial history from the Romans onwards. Which is why I believe that there is no 'good' and 'evil' side here.

                I suggest that you look up the definition of terrorist. Netanyahu is a political leader. You may dislike his policies, but as the leader of a legitimate state, you can't describe him as a terrorist. Any more than you can call Putin, Xi, or Kim terrorists. He is acting within the laws of Israel, and Israel is conducting a war against a foreign state (Gaza) which is the military base for Hamas – a terrorist organization which has made a terror raid into Israel, deliberately targeting civilians.

                Hamas are not fluffy little kittens. There is a very good reason that they are designated as a terrorist organization, internationally. And very good reasons why Israel do not trust them to keep any agreement.

                There is zero trust on either side. And mutually exclusive basic principles (Hamas doesn't believe Israel should exist, Israel believes that it should)

                Perhaps you could also familiarize yourself with the virtually complete ethnic cleansing of Jews from every Arab state – going on before, during and after the Nakba. Or is does it only matter if Palestinians are affected?

                The difference is that Israel took in and re-settled the Jewish refugees in Israel. Arab countries in the Middle East refused to do the same for the Palestinians.

                Apologies for getting the pop wrong – I'd confused the city with the strip.

                • lprent …
                  20 November 2023 at 7:47 pm

                  I'm pretty well acquainted with the history of Israel and Palestine, also the Middle East, and the colonial history from the Romans onwards. Which is why I believe that there is no 'good' and 'evil' side here.

                  Clearly that is complete bullshit because just a bit further down you said…

                  …and Israel is conducting a war against a foreign state (Gaza)…

                  Clearly you are too stupid or too lazy to be "…pretty well acquainted with the history of Israel and Palestine.." or its legal status.

                  Gaza is legally an occupied territory in a state of war. It has never been recognised as being sovereign state because of that occupation. In particular it has never been recognised as such by the state of Israel. That has been the legal basis of the air-land-sea siege of Gaza that Israel has maintained before and since the IDF left in 2005.

                  The difference is that Israel took in and re-settled the Jewish refugees in Israel. Arab countries in the Middle East refused to do the same for the Palestinians.

                  Or put another way, the Arab states refused to recognise that Israel's theft by force of Palestinian lands and properties. That was where Israeli settled Jewish refugees and the other carpetbaggers that came with them.

                  Your statements might have made sense if

                  You may dislike his policies, but as the leader of a legitimate state, you can't describe him as a terrorist.

                  I assume you are relying on the legal position of heads of sovereign states. But that is just means that you are a wanton and rather dumb hypocrite.

                  You cannot technically describe any Palestinian as a terrorist if they are resisting an force occupying or besieging their territory. They are partisans of the nascent state of Palestine that was to have been established in 1948 under the auspices of the UN, then occupied by Israel, Egypt, and Jordan.

                  Israel occupied parts of the Palestinian territories inside the armistice lines. Egypt and Jordan remained in occupation of Gaza and the West Bank respectively until they were occupied by Israel in 1967, and both have since renounced any claims that they might have had to those territories. Israel has not – they have simply withdrawn and maintain control on both territories.

                  Essentially both you and the Israelis are deliberately lying when they describe Palestinians fighting against a occupation or besieging force either within their own territory, or in the territories of their enemy state as terrorists. They are partisans or resistance. They are not terrorists.

                  That is the direct consequence of Israel never actually allowing the formation of an actual sovereign State of Palestine since 1948. There is no sovereign body with which to negotiate a peace treaty with. Nor have they made peace with any body that would allow them to formally annex the territory because that would have also made them formally responsible for their new citizens – more Palestinians.

                  Essentially Israel has been responsible for Palestinians behaviour and well being in Palestine under every international law in areas that they occupied since 1948 or 1967 depending on which occupation you're looking at. However Israel is fundamentally a state that hasn't been up to that basic requirement of any real state. Instead they just steal land, property and commit crimes against humanity – just as they are in Gaza right now.

                  It was noticeable that both Jordan and Egypt did a far better job of their occupations until 1967.

                  Israel simply haven't been up to the task of building relationships with them. Either that or they like the ambiguous position of Palestinians because it makes it easier for Israel to steal from them.

                  BTW: your idea of history appears to be to read really stupid propaganda and believe it. Now I have left some awesome holes in my narrative. But I’m betting that you are far too ignorant to see them or even to understand them. In the event you respond, I will happily point out the propaganda, that you are clearly incapable of researching and forming your own ideas – and my opinions about what causes your deficiencies…

            • SPC 2.1.1.2.1.2
              19 November 2023 at 8:03 pm

              Gaza City (historic place) is only part of the Gaza Strip.

            • Grey Area 2.1.1.2.1.3
              19 November 2023 at 10:29 pm

              "So is every government which engages in wars against terrorists/insurgents (wars which may have civilian impacts) – also a terrorist government? "

              Not necessarily, but going on their actions stretching back for decades in the case of Israel, yes.

              • Belladonna …
                19 November 2023 at 11:20 pm

                So can you give an example of another government you would regard as a terrorist?

                Plenty of governments do things we disagree with. I'm not too happy with Russia's actions in Ukraine, or China's against the Uighar's or pretty much any of the bloody, internecine conflicts in half the Middle East (Syria, Yemen, Ethiopia, just to name a few). Would you regard those governments as terrorists? If not, what is the difference between them and Israel?

    • Gabby 2.2
      20 November 2023 at 6:59 am

      The conflict looks to be uncreating hamas at present.

  3. aj 3
    19 November 2023 at 10:45 am

    As an aging white male in provincial NZ, I'm in a very small minority amongst my peers when I rate Nania Mahuta highly.

    Her interview on Q&A this morning has only raised my view of her intellect and ability. Fantastic review of her career. I wish her all the best, she leaves a gap I hope Labour doesn't struggle to fill.

    • Johnr 3.1
      19 November 2023 at 12:00 pm

      Ditto, from another old white fart.

    • Grey Area 3.2
      19 November 2023 at 12:07 pm

      I think you will be disappointed. The Labour talent chest is pretty bare. (As is National's).

      A bit off topic but I wonder why, when our country and the world, have so many serious challenges impacting us, we seem to have so many small people leading us.

      • Belladonna 3.2.1
        19 November 2023 at 12:55 pm

        Politics is a rough business. MPs all go in thinking they will change the world, and find that the vast majority have little ability to change anything. Disillusionment (especially if you're an opposition back-bencher) sets in quickly.

        It also chews up and spits out families. The number of marriage breakdowns must be higher than just about any other area of employment.

        In addition, the media have a vested interest in finding out every tiny questionable detail about your past life, and writing it up for clicks. It seems that only the most anodyne, PR polished portfolios are suitable as candidates. And, these are rarely the best and brightest (most great leaders have made mistakes in their early life/career).

        The cancel culture at its best/worst.

        I do distinguish, here between past history, and current behaviour – bad behaviour in sitting MPs absolutely needs to be called out. Although I do think redemption should be possible. I sincerely regret the departure of Kiri Allen from politics – although, I bet she doesn't.

        Even at the top party levels, people often decide that they can make more of a difference/have a better life – outside politics – cf Russel Norman & Jacinda Ardern. And, very few would ever go back (Sue Moroney was appalled by the idea when it was floated to her as a panellist on National Radio)

        • Ad 3.2.1.1
          19 November 2023 at 1:03 pm

          Though one can name those who both do more than 3 terms and achieve substantial stuff for New Zealand. On both sides of the house.

          • Belladonna 3.2.1.1.1
            19 November 2023 at 1:13 pm

            The interesting question is whether, if they were starting out today, they'd be selected as candidates by their party. I think, in many cases, the answer would be 'no'.

        • alwyn 3.2.1.2
          19 November 2023 at 6:45 pm

          "(especially if you're an opposition back-bencher)"

          I think that it would far worse to be a Government backbencher than it would be to be in the Opposition. At least in Opposition you may get the chance to ask real questions and if you can get a Minister ruffled you have some chance of promotion.

          In Government a backbencher might, if they are very good, be given a question to ask so that a Minister can boast about how great they are. Anything else you do will be exactly what the whips order you to do.

          The opposite will be the case if you are on the front bench. The Opposition frontbenchers can feel the pain of of not being someone with real power and perks.

          • Belladonna 3.2.1.2.1
            19 November 2023 at 7:14 pm

            I agree in the house, however select committees do provide the opportunity for government backbenchers to make a contribution to legislation with a good chance of being enacted.

            TBH – I regard most of what goes on in Parliament as political theatre – rather than governance.

    • Belladonna 3.3
      19 November 2023 at 12:42 pm

      However, her actual achievements in government are …. less than spectacular.

      She was an adequate Foreign Minister. Although, copped quite a bit of criticism for not travelling as much as the job requires. But no spectacular successes, even if there weren't dismal failures.

      However, by any measure, she was a very poor Local Government Minister. Her big challenge was to get local government on board with the 3 waters changes. She failed.

      Whether it was arrogance, or poor communications, or unwillingness to listen, or whatever combination of reasons; she not only failed to persuade local government, she left them feeling that they'd been lied to, and belittled by the infantile advertising campaign she authorized.

      She also failed in her attempts to effectively communicate what co-governance means to the rest of NZ. How it would work in practice. And how everyone's rights to water (and potentially other resources) would be protected. Again, she failed badly.

      I don't hold her solely responsible for this. Ardern needs to carry quite a bit of responsibility here, as well. Especially when everyone could see that it was going wrong. Ardern should have pulled the co-governance element, much earlier; or replaced Mahuta, much earlier; or put together a dream-team coms group to sell the concept (not sure if this would have been achievable at the beginning, but it certainly wasn't by the end)

      In addition, she tried to pull a fast one in working with the GP to entrench the law – completely blind-siding her Labour caucus colleagues, who had been informed this was off the table. Ardern should have fired her as a minister for this.

      • Drowsy M. Kram 3.3.1
        19 November 2023 at 12:59 pm

        She was an adequate Foreign Minister… However, by any measure, she was a very poor Local Government Minister.
        …
        Whether it was arrogance, or poor communications, or unwillingness to listen… she failed… she not only failed… she also failed… she failed badly.

        Possibly a combination of arrogance and tone…

        • Ad 3.3.1.1
          19 November 2023 at 1:06 pm

          She was excellent up close and very principled.

          IMHO the primary blame for the death of 3 Waters lies with MFE and Internal Affairs local government leads. It ain't that hard to design fulsome engagement processes that build towards bringing the entire public with you. To me it looks like MFE and DIA were half-hearted and just ramming the bill through was going to be enough.

          • Belladonna 3.3.1.1.1
            19 November 2023 at 1:15 pm

            Entirely possible. But still Mahuta's failure to manage her department.

            And the coms – especially the reversal of 'you can opt out' to 'you have no alternative' – was absolutely in her court.

            • AB 3.3.1.1.1.1
              19 November 2023 at 2:04 pm

              I think you underestimate the extent to which provincial areas are essentially fiefdoms of local farming and business interests and Councils are the political wing of those interests. Anyone who proposes giving local Maori any meaningful influence over anything (not just water) that potentially threatens those interests is likely to call down a firestorm on the own head. The best way to rapidly progress 3 Waters would have been to remove co-governance before even starting. If this means more broadly that the progress made since the 1980's in recognising the Treaty and the Maori view of the world has reached it's terminus, or is about to be rolled back, we are in deep trouble.

              • Belladonna …
                19 November 2023 at 6:28 pm

                I think you underestimate just how off-side she got with major urban councils as well.

                I agree that co-governance was an unnecessary distraction if the aim was to get 3 waters embedded in law. However, I don't think that this is the case, for Labour/Greens – I think that co-governance was equally as important as water reform, in their minds.

            • Ad 3.3.1.1.1.2
              19 November 2023 at 2:09 pm

              Yup fair

          • Muttonbird 3.3.1.1.2
            19 November 2023 at 2:18 pm

            But how exactly do, "MFE and Internal Affairs local government leads" combat outright racism in rural district councils and the farming community they represent?

            This, of course, is where the primary blame lies.

            • Ad 3.3.1.1.2.1
              19 November 2023 at 2:46 pm

              If a minor itinerant preacher can do a nationwide tour to sell their anti-Treaty message, it wouldn't have killed MfE and DIA to do the same with a passel of Labour Ministers in tow.

              Do a short movie, a monthly Youtube uplift, a social marketing campaign apropos MMP or anti-smoking, organise a few marches, a couple of rousing anthems. Jesus it's not hard.

              Just basic retail politics.

              • Muttonbird …
                19 November 2023 at 9:38 pm

                The minor itinerant preacher is preaching to the converted. The converted hold all the power in local rural politics.

            • Belladonna 3.3.1.1.2.2
              19 November 2023 at 6:29 pm

              If you begin by characterising those who you want to persuade as 'racist' – there is little chance of any bridges being built.

              • Muttonbird …
                19 November 2023 at 9:36 pm

                There is no persuading those people. Racism in colonial, rural New Zealand is ingrained, and on top of that profit is at stake. Water use must be controlled by white farmers. Local councils have managed to ensure this continues.

                • weka …
                  19 November 2023 at 10:00 pm

                  You're missing the fact that a significant part of provincial opposition to 3 Waters was loss of local control to a centralised body. I support co-governance, but no way would I trust an urban organisation in Christchurch designed by Wellington to know what is needed in the rural SI, and I'm not alone in that.

                  • Muttonbird …
                    19 November 2023 at 10:14 pm

                    My feeling is that most of the opposition to centralisation was that a central body would take into account the concerns of the whole rather than the most powerful. This is what centralisation means.

                    Rural councils are populated by, and represent farming interests. They don't have to answer to the disenfranchised, the low income, and the asset-less class because local body democracy simply does not work for these people.

                    Low turnout and highly funded farming industry campaigning is a sweet spot for profit at the expense of the environment and those who supply labour. The vehemence with which these groups and their proxies fought Three Waters showed how much they rely on control of water. The thought of having Maori at the table just wouldn't do.

                    • Belladonna …
                      20 November 2023 at 9:45 am

                      I'd say the comment shows that the infrastructure aspects of 3Waters were subordinated to the co-governance aspects.

                      But – you go on in your patently obvious belief that the rest of the world is out to get you.

                  • Belladonna …
                    19 November 2023 at 11:30 pm

                    The effect of co-governance on the 3waters governing bodies, meant that the area covered by each body had more to do with iwi groupings, than watersheds. FFS – one crossed over the Cook Strait.

                    • Muttonbird …
                      20 November 2023 at 7:43 am

                      This comment shows the campaign by the faming industry worked. They appealed to intolerance and fear, leaving supposed middle voters convinced 3 Waters was about Maori stealing things rather than improving water infrastructure and management.

                • Belladonna …
                  19 November 2023 at 11:25 pm

                  The default of calling everyone who disagrees with co-governance 'racist' – effectively makes it impossible to debate the topic with you.

                  Your position means you have zero chance of convincing any of the middle voters – and so your politics is bound to fail, in a democracy.

        • Belladonna 3.3.1.2
          19 November 2023 at 1:16 pm

          Possibly.

          I note that you're not defending her record.

      • Ad 3.3.2
        19 November 2023 at 1:00 pm

        The international moves of any note were led by O'Connor in trade.

        • Belladonna 3.3.2.1
          19 November 2023 at 1:17 pm

          Who was a truly excellent trade minister. One of the best I recall.

          • Sandra Le Cron 3.3.2.1.1
            19 November 2023 at 3:48 pm

            Yes, and soon we will have the Winnie and Dodgy show…

            • Belladonna 3.3.2.1.1.1
              19 November 2023 at 6:11 pm

              I don't have any information on who the Trade Minister will be in the new government, and I doubt you do.

              Much better to wait and see who is tapped for this role, before pouring scorn.

    • Anne 3.4
      19 November 2023 at 5:48 pm

      Agree aj.

      I met Nanaia 10 years ago and was very impressed with her intelligence and grasp of politics. It did not surprise me when Jacinda gave her Foreign Affairs. The problem was, she was Maori and she made sure everyone knew she was there to represent Maori.

      Racism is just below the surface of a large proportion of the population.

  4. Muttonbird 4
    19 November 2023 at 2:25 pm

    Signs the net is slowly closing on wealthy fraudsters in New Zealand. I hope scrutiny of trust abuse continues.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/teens-among-the-highest-earning-beneficiaries-of-trusts-inland-revenue/HXGLJ3LWMVHWZLH4SNTACNYS64/

    Paywalled.

    • Descendant Of Smith 4.1
      19 November 2023 at 10:26 pm

      Pfft IRD have known about this for years.

      When I turned 18 I got a nice letter from a bank letting me know my trust investments was now accessible without the need for a trustee signature. Neither my parents nor myself knew anything about this.

      Well off Aunty had trust accounts all in our kids names – enough for each of us to buy a house and have some left over. Unsurprisingly I still haven't seen a cent and I'm in my late 50's now.

      Should be a register of beneficiaries of all trusts for this and other reasons.

  6. SPC 6
    19 November 2023 at 6:51 pm

    One wonders if the bi-partisan foreign policy position is going to hold throughout the interminable duration of the preparation for the 100 day government …

    https://www.1news.co.nz/2023/11/19/labour-leader-chris-hipkins-calls-for-immediate-gaza-ceasefire/

  7. SPC 7
    20 November 2023 at 1:35 am

    While lprent sleeps some sports news.

    In 2019, the AB's lost to the team who lost the final.

    In 2019, the Black Caps scored 241 for 8 and England tied the score to draw the game ..

    In 2023, the Black Caps lose to India who are playing Oz in the final

    India score 240 all out, so Oz have to match the England total of 2019 for there to be a winner this time round.

    Sports a bit like elections, it's the end result that counts – except that errors made by officials do not change the final count (TMO was wrong to stop the awarding of a try etc but the result on the day stands).

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