Open mike 19/12/2019

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, December 19th, 2019 - 106 comments
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106 comments on “Open mike 19/12/2019 ”

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  1. A 1
    19 December 2019 at 7:13 am

    After learning of yet another rise to minimum wage I want to extend my congratulations to superannuitants on getting their base rate benefit drastically increased.

    Please don't crow too loudly lest the severely disabled and their families (the ONLY group who do not benefit from increased wages via linked benefits, iwtc or actual wages) hear you and realise the injustice the system has delivered yet again.

  2. Cinny 2
    19 December 2019 at 7:46 am

    All eyes on the white house, it's going to be a massive day. The debate has begun and should finish in around 6 hours time.

    Live stream link here… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DJOz0Ux_gc

    • weka 4.1
      19 December 2019 at 8:42 am

      Suing lawyer complains NZ legal system unfairly discriminates against suing lawyers people who sue.

      What a wretched excuse of an article that is.

      • Sacha 4.1.1
        19 December 2019 at 9:50 am

        Where 'proper' compensation means lawyers making out like bandits.

      • tc 4.1.2
        19 December 2019 at 12:31 pm

        As expected from the house of murdoch…..look over there anywhere but what scomo's up to and that your country's becoming too hot in parts to sustain humanity.

        Lump of coal anybody ? Piece of the reef maybe ?

    • greywarshark 4.2
      19 December 2019 at 12:00 pm

      Part of the linked article –

      He also said there was an important psychological element — that is, that the lack of legal accountability promotes a more lax safety culture.

      “This is not always empirically measurable, but it’s pretty basic psychology. If you’re the owner of a business and you know you cannot be sued for negligent conduct, you may adopt a cavalier safety approach.”

      Finally, he said it fails the economics test.

      “No-fault schemes typically become financially unsustainable,” he said. “The ACC has moved from one financial crisis to the next since it was drawn up in the 1970s.”

      He makes confident assertions that can be questioned. However he may be correct when he says, 'the lack of legal accountability promotes a more lax safety culture.'

      Also the limitations of what ACC is able to assist with for tourists with long-term affects from their trauma has been a criticism from those disappointed at returning home with some bodily damage that no insurance covers. I can't give details, but remember a few past cases.

      And the lawyers' chagrin would change to a grin if they could sue for those extravagant amounts that the USA allows. I remember in the Simpsons that Bart was trying to cash in on that, dashing out in front of slow-moving cars and pretending to get knocked down. Homer, I think came along and accepted a small payment in lieu of starting an expensive Court case. Which is as moral as the real thing when they go full hog there.

  5. Anker 5
    19 December 2019 at 8:53 am

    The enquiry into the complaints of sexual harassment, bullying and a serious sexual assault in the Labour Party have all but disappeared from stuff, radio NZ and the herald. You have to go searching to find them.

    this story stayed in the media for days when it first broke and I believe cost Jacinda and labour in the polls.

    i take wekas point last night about rape culture. I also take the point that absence of evidence doesn’t mean something didn’t happen. However allegations of sexual assault are about as serious as it gets. And given that the complainants evidence of the night contained critical errors, that her messages on fb and text on the months around the alleged assault do not reflect her allegations, and that evidence doesn’t verify she sent an attachment to labour officials about the sexual assault, we need to give the accused the benefit of the doubt and assume it didn’t happen.

    also the reports of bullying and sexual harassment weren’t substantiated either, although there was an admission by the alleged offender that he could be aggressive and he did make two sexiest remarks.

    i am at a bit of a loss to know what’s is going on here. All I know is that there are multiple victims, and that Paula b used these young people to make political capital and it worked.

    • ianmac 5.1
      19 December 2019 at 9:48 am

      Just looked through Herald online and can find not a word re the report released yesterday. Considering the heavy handed accusations and innuendo levelled at Jacinda and the Labour Party you would expect a correction of some sort. Shame on you Herald.

      • Anne 5.1.1
        19 December 2019 at 10:01 am

        On Morning Report this morning around 8:15am Jane Patterson gave her views on the report and its likely effect on the Labour Party. She believed the matter is now behind the Party and she didn't think the outcome would have any lasting impact on them. She went on to say that it is wrong for people to claim it was part of a pre-Xmas dump because it was only received a day or two ago and yesterday was the first opportunity to release it. She pointed out it was imperative for them to get it out of the way by Xmas and not hanging around into the new year.

        All fair points imo.

        I would link to the item but it hasn't appeared online.

        Edit: two items under politics ianmac.

    • weka 5.2
      19 December 2019 at 10:02 am

      "we need to give the accused the benefit of the doubt and assume it didn’t happen."

      I don't. I'm good with assuming I don't know what happened.

      "However allegations of sexual assault are about as serious as it gets"

      I rate being raped as more serious than being accused of rape.

      It's a given that National are opportunistic dirty politicos.

      What concerns me here is the tying of Labour's wellbeing to lines that the complainents lied. This is unnecessary, and also, Labour's wellbeing is tied to how they handle things when they go badly. I think Labour did relatively ok this time, I'm guessing argely thanks to JA, and I can see some areas where they still need to up their game.

      This is ok though, because it's ok to make mistakes, it's what one does after the mistake that matters. This is the antidote to macho politics and it paves the way to unravel rape culture. A position that trades of sexual abuse survivors for political gain both enforces macho politics and perpetuates rape culture.

      People will believe what they want to believe. I'm talking about how the situation gets framed and used politically. I think the higher priority here is to pushing back against rape culture.

      • anker 5.2.1
        19 December 2019 at 10:28 am

        I completely accept that is how you see it Weka. I think most of us will form an opinion about what happened and of course we will never know for sure. Just like the Christchurch Creche case in which I think there could be some similarities. Or the Bain family murders.

        I believe Labour took a hit in the polls for this as did Jacinda.

        We don’t know for sure how Labour handled it because the second report into that hasn’t come out. But getting the thorough report from Maria Dew was a good thing to do.

        I note from her summary virtually none of the complaints were upheld other than some aggressive behaviour and I think two sexiest comments made by the alleged offender. He apologized for both. Is this o.k.? Of course not. But the claims of bullying were not found. I think it was five incidents over 13 months.
        Aggression is never o.k., but I am inclined to think it is likely rampant in politics. this is not to condone it.

        • greywarshark 5.2.1.1
          19 December 2019 at 12:09 pm

          I got the feeling after a quick read of the report on the alleged sexual misconduct, that it was a personal matter of relationship discontent, and the spat had been elevated to a formal complaint as a retaliation and punishment because of the soured relationship.

          Labour has to ensure that those that wish to join Young Labour are there for the good of the Party, and advancing the ideals of the politics of the left into practice, and not just to meet the opposite sex and interesting people doing something to pass the time.

          • ianmac 5.2.1.1.1
            19 December 2019 at 3:43 pm

            "…it was a personal matter of relationship discontent, and the spat had been elevated to a formal complaint as a retaliation and punishment because of the soured relationship…."

            I agree grey though we can only guess I guess. Still as the names are withheld there should be no real problem for the complainants even though they were the ones who created the publicity in the first place. Anyway I guess there it lies and fades into the distance.

  6. Dennis Frank 6
    19 December 2019 at 9:37 am

    The discussion yesterday about ongoing viability of class analysis is germaine in respect to the durable alliance between middle & lower class on the left side of politics, in western countries following WWII through social democracy then neoliberalism. But culture wars have rended that alliance in recent years, so I was interested to see this take on the Brexit election from Mike Treen on TDB:

    "Unfortunately, this advance in electoral support was largely reversed in the recent election with a drop to 32.2%. This came about because the right and centre of the party locked Corbyn into a position of supporting a second referendum on Brexit – leaving the European Union. This was seen by many Labour supporters who supported Leave as an attempt to overturn the democratic decision already made. Many voted Tory for the first time in their lives to ensure the decision was respected." https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2019/12/19/for-a-green-new-deal-with-peoples-power/

    This notion that the remainers (urban liberals) within Labour were so disrespectful to the verdict of the people that they wanted to overturn it via a second referendum rings true. His thesis seems to be that Labour's middle class retain sufficient influence in the party to hamstring Corbyn despite the Blairite exodus.

    Makes sense if they do have the numbers (but only an insider would know). It explains the large defection and abstention of working class Labour voters. It raises the spectre of a tribal divide between the two classes within UK Labour.

    • Sacha 6.1
      19 December 2019 at 9:47 am

      That theory might be correct if Labour supporters had voted Tory rather than stayed at home. They didn't.

      • Dennis Frank 6.1.1
        19 December 2019 at 10:11 am

        I'm seeing sufficiently evidence of workers voting Tory. This analysis from Vox puts the shift around 6% in working class electorates…

        "Educated urban professionals have drifted left and the working classes have tiled right, a shift that social scientists attribute to the rising importance of immigration and identity issues in European politics. In Britain, Brexit supercharged this long-running process, as highly educated city dwellers tended to oppose Brexit (making them more likely to vote Labour) while rural and less educated voters tended to support it (making them more likely to vote Conservative)."

        "The 2019 election results reflected the post-Brexit realignment. Labour was absolutely devastated in its traditional working class constituencies (the UK equivalent to congressional districts), with the Conservatives — long caricatured as the parties of the rich — making historic inroads. “The resounding Conservative victory was driven by a dramatic swing of working-class support away from Labour,” as the Financial Times put it in a post-election data analysis."

        “In seats with high shares of people in low-skilled jobs, the Conservative vote share increased by an average of six percentage points and the Labour share fell by 14 points. In seats with the lowest share of low-skilled jobs, the Tory vote share fell by four points and Labour’s fell by seven,” the FT said in its analysis. “The swing of working class areas from Labour to Conservative had the strongest statistical association of any explored by the FT.” https://www.vox.com/world/2019/12/13/21004755/uk-election-2019-jeremy-corbyn-labour-defeat

      • Dennis Frank 6.1.2
        19 December 2019 at 10:15 am

        Also worth considering: "How did Labour come to squander the promise of its unexpectedly good result in 2017? A central part of the explanation was dither and delay on Brexit, which meant that Labour lost ground with both leavers and remainers. Some early analysis from Datapraxis suggests that nearly half of the Labour seat losses could be attributed to losing more remainers to other parties than the size of the Tory majority in leave seats. By attempting to triangulate, Labour convinced leavers it was for remain and remainers that it was for leave. The party looked cynical and opportunistic, as if it were playing games on Brexit to secure electoral advantage, rather than sticking to its principles or standing up for the national interest." https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/16/labour-2017-2019-corbyn-brexit-election

      • Dennis Frank 6.1.3
        19 December 2019 at 10:20 am

        This one is more explicit on the class divide within Labour, and provides historical context to document the trend: "This was not the first election in which more working class voters backed the Tories rather than Labour. They did so in 1983—the year of Margaret Thatcher’s landslide victory—and in 2017. But the gap was just two points in both elections. This time there was 15-point gulf: Conservative 48 per cent, Labour 33 per cent. The Tory lead among middle-class voters was less: 12 points."

        "However, as with Labour’s heartland decline, last week’s election accelerated a long-term trend. In 1970, when Edward Heath led the Tories back to government, the Conservatives enjoyed a 45-point lead among middle-class voters, while Labour led by 22 per cent among working-class voters. Combining the two figures, the “class gap” was 67 points (45 plus 22). Nine years later, when Thatcher came to power, the class gap had fallen to 47 points: a middle class Con lead of 36 per cent, compared with a working-class Lab lead of 11 per cent. The class gap slipped to 28 points in Tony Blair’s 1997 landslide and 14 points when David Cameron secured his overall majority in 2015. Last week the class gap was minus three: it had gone into reverse."

        https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/five-crucially-important-but-frequently-ignored-facts-about-the-2019-election-labour-conservatives-brexit-corbyn-johnson

        • pat 6.1.3.1
          19 December 2019 at 10:33 am

          Interesting that 1983 result…it will have been around the time of increased industrial action in UK. I am assuming that the unions functioned much the same in the UK as here in that period and there was always a significant proportion of National voting union members here,' shy Tories ' although some not so shy, and their numbers grow during protracted industrial action as the lack of income bites. It is one reason why compulsory union membership is not the panacea its often painted as.

  7. Paaparakauta 7
    19 December 2019 at 10:49 am

    As big Norm Kirk once put it, “paralysis by analysis”.
    People are still dealing with the debris but the result is clear.
    As many a losing general has done you assess the landscape post-battle, husband your resources, seek allies and opportunities, and strategise the next campaign.

    https://duckduckgo.com/l/?kh=-1&uddg=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.historynet.com%2Fsecond-punic-war-hannibals-war-in-italy.htm

    [With the assumed understanding and agreement of the commenter, I have changed the user name and e-mail to the ones we had settled on (I thought); https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-19-12-2019/#comment-1674546 – Incognito]

  8. Bearded Git 8
    19 December 2019 at 10:58 am

    Owen Jones in the Guardian gets it right:

    "Voters didn’t defect from Labour because they felt the top 5% were paying enough tax, or because they thought our privately run railway system was a shining success, or because of their affection for sky-high tuition fees…. In January, YouGov asked why voters with previously favourable opinions of Corbyn had changed their mind. About three-quarters of the responses were linked to Brexit, which dominated all political discourse after 2017 and smothered discussion of Labour’s popular domestic policies. Labour was tortured about how to keep its 2017 coalition of remain and leave supporters together, and was paralysed as a result."

    Brexit, the mendacious and continuous right-wing media attacks on Corbyn (especially the anti semitic rubbish) and a poorly focused campaign was why Labour lost.

    • tc 8.1
      19 December 2019 at 1:03 pm

      IMO it's as much about the qaulity of their advisers and strategists then the front person who often doesn't get to set the agenda.

      Tories were laser focused, labour all over the place with JC tasked to deliver it.

      • Bearded Git 8.1.1
        19 December 2019 at 1:29 pm

        Yep-the Tories seem to have got the nice simple message and back room strategy together better than Labour.

        This must be the case because, as Gwynne Dyer says, the Labour Red Wall seats were turkeys voting for xmas.

    • soddenleaf 8.2
      19 December 2019 at 3:27 pm

      Brexit was go in to happen, or be stopped by…. ..well Labour. So Corbyn decided to do nothing, instead of accepting the decision of the people and stopped fighting. That's just staggering in heinsight. Given he could of, after accepting half of his pro exit party decision, he then offered a referendum on full integration, drop the pound, to assuage his remainers. no, instead he vacilated and lost. He should of resigned but Labour just doesn't do leadership anymore.

    • Dennis Frank 8.3
      19 December 2019 at 4:28 pm

      There's a good in-depth analysis here: https://quillette.com/2019/12/13/britains-labour-party-got-woke-and-now-its-broke/

      "A friend of mine was standing as the Conservative candidate in Newcastle upon Tyne North, where the Labour incumbent won a 10,000 majority two years ago, and I knocked on a few doors for him last week. Every person I spoke to said they were going to vote Tory. In some cases, it was because they wanted to “get Brexit done,” which has been the Conservatives’ endlessly repeated campaign slogan over the past six weeks, but in others it was because of their visceral dislike for Labour’s leader.

      “Most people I know who used to be staunch Labour are now saying no way Jeremy Corbyn,” said Steve Hurt, an engineer. “It’s not our party any more. Same label, different bottle.”

      "According to the activist I was with, that had been the reaction wherever he went. He had knocked on 100 doors in a council estate earlier that day and all but three people he’d spoken to told him they intended to vote Conservative—and this in a city where 26 per cent of the population are among the most deprived in England. I asked why, if these electors disliked Corbyn, they didn’t simply abstain? Why were they planning to brave the elements on a cold day in December to vote for a party led by an old Etonian toff? “Because they hate Corbyn that much,” he said. “The biggest message they can send to him is to elect a Tory government.” It’s the same story across England—working class electors deserting Labour en masse."

  9. Stuart Munro. 9
    19 December 2019 at 11:03 am

    I recommend First Dog On The Moon's awards if you have a spare moment – sorry can't link from this wretched device.

  10. Paaparakauta 10
    19 December 2019 at 11:18 am

    Post-campaign analysis from Lord Ashcroft's Conservative Home.

    "Labour’s civil war is set to get worse before it gets better."

    https://www.conservativehome.com/leftwatch/2019/12/labours-civil-war-is-set-to-get-worse-before-it-gets-better.html

    • Incognito 10.1
      19 December 2019 at 11:22 am

      Would you like me to change the other comment that you posted as Agora to the correct user name and e-mail address or shall I move it to the Trash folder?

      • Paaparakauta 10.1.1
        19 December 2019 at 11:31 am

        I'm glad to see you are in good form. I was worried you may be some kind of AI or bot. Please go ahead.

        • Incognito 10.1.1.1
          19 December 2019 at 11:42 am

          Which option do you prefer? I’m doing this as a service to the site.

          • greywarshark 10.1.1.1.1
            19 December 2019 at 11:47 am

            Thanks Incognito – did I wish you Merry Christmas? If already, then feel free to have double.

          • Psycho Milt 10.1.1.1.2
            19 December 2019 at 1:24 pm

            I’m doing this as a service to the site.

            Thank you for your efforts. You bring a lot of patience to your moderation, in fact the patience you display in consistently treating Paaparakauta/Agora/etc as though he weren't an obnoxious arsehole sets a standard I'd never have a chance of meeting.

            • Incognito 10.1.1.1.2.1
              19 December 2019 at 1:35 pm

              Thank you 🙂

              My ‘philosophy’ is that we tend to see only the tip of the iceberg when people comment here in terms of their overall personality. By analogy, some people transform into frothing maniacs brimming with (road) rage when they crawl/climb behind the wheel.

    • Bearded Git 10.2
      19 December 2019 at 11:29 am

      I don't think this is right. There is certainly no appetite in the UK Labour party to go back to Blairism.

      A new younger woman leader*, the end of the Brexit debate and more focussed communication of basically the same policies will see Labour sweep home in 5 years time after the public has found Boris out.

      *though Kier Starmer is very good. Deputy leader?

      • greywarshark 10.2.1
        19 December 2019 at 11:42 am

        Do you mean that they will try to sweep up the debris of the broken UK? Perhaps they will develop some vitality and enjoyment of life and each other as in the Greeks dancing Zorba in the street and breaking plates. That debris represents all sorts of confusing feelings that probably match the confusing feelings that led to an outpouring of desire for change, any change and the cutting of ties to Europe was chosen.

        Greeks breaking plates – It meant that the couple were throwing away their old life and embarking on a new life together. Smashing plates could fool the spirits. It was believed that breaking plates would keep the evil spirits at bay because they would believe the people involved were angry and upset—instead of celebrating. https://holidappy.com/party-planning/Why-do-Greeks-smash-plates-at-weddings

        Gwynne Dyer writing from the UK casts a bright light on the doings and faintings there. https://lfpress.com/opinion/columnists/dyer-english-turkeys-vote-for-christmas-with-brexit-election

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gwynne_Dyer – Good read!

        • Dennis Frank 10.2.1.1
          19 December 2019 at 12:06 pm

          Back when his column got reproduced in the NZ Herald he was usually accurate. Hasn't lost that faculty: "the English turkeys marched bravely up to the chopping block, confident this would be a Christmas to remember."

          "Boris Johnson’s big victory in Thursday’s “Brexit election” was achieved almost entirely with English votes. Only 20 of the 364 seats won by the Conservative Party were in the other three nations of the United Kingdom. The United Kingdom will continue to be called that for several years, but this election has sounded its death knell. It was the votes of English nationalists who gave Johnson his victory, and they don’t really care if the U.K. survives. Just as well, because it won’t."

        • Bearded Git 10.2.1.2
          19 December 2019 at 12:11 pm

          Yes good read-thanks. He is right about Johnson being a hard-right operator hidden under a buffoon act.

          I think if Scotland and Northern Ireland leave, which as Dyer says is likely, the English will turn on the Tories for breaking up the union. Labour should be a shoe-in in 5 years time.

  11. greywarshark 11
    19 December 2019 at 11:31 am

    Watching the ageing of NZ and people who have been prominent; the cracks start and widen. Those who have concentrated on their personal projects without thinking about ethics and the affects on their own psyche, mental health and the goodness to society of their addictive focus may find eventually they can not slide away unnoticed.

    Sir Ron Brierley – arrested. About – https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/2018727628/brierley-biographer-not-surprised-by-child-porn-arrest

    In NZ Herald today – Gloriavale's shame: Second senior member convicted of child sex offending

    Eric Watson's Cullen Group in liquidation https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12295218

    * Eric Watson's Cullen Group has been moved into liquidation by court order, meaning it might no longer fight a $112 million tax judgment against it….

    * Eric Watson loses appeal, can't avoid interest on £43 million payment to Sir Owen Glenn

  12. Incognito 12
    19 December 2019 at 11:43 am

    Attention: The Chairman

    As you know, Moderators draw attention to their moderation notes and to bans in particular. There is an obvious reason for this, which is that moderation, in general, aims to be instructional, to encourage self-moderation and self-correction, and to (slightly) change behaviour on this site. However, the onus is on the commenters to read all the replies to their comments and respond accordingly and appropriately.

    FYI, you were informed on 8th Dec: https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-30-11-2019/#comment-1671692 and you can see the reasons here: https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-30-11-2019/#comment-1669902

  13. Ad 13
    19 December 2019 at 11:55 am

    Sir Ron Brierley and Eric Watson.

    Two of our worst capitalists, ruined.

    Great end to 2019 in 1% land.

    • adam 13.1
      19 December 2019 at 12:15 pm

      Shows how corrupting capitalism is in excess.

      One so greedy many states want a part of him. And the other caught with kiddy porn – not just any old kiddy porn (sick as that is) – but really violent kiddy porn.

    • Bearded Git 13.2
      19 December 2019 at 1:26 pm

      Couldn't agree more.

      You have to hope that in February the Court of Appeal (and then the Supreme Court?) upholds the High Court's decision on the Cullen Group. Though this pales into insignificance compared to the $114m tax plus penalties owed by Watson. (Unless this is also subject to appeal-anyone out there know?)

    • UncookedSelachimorpha 13.3
      19 December 2019 at 6:21 pm

      The rich are often (nearly always) not the best of us.

      So granting them supreme power isn't a great plan.

  14. Fireblade 14
    19 December 2019 at 12:30 pm

    Peaches – The Presidents of the United States of America (Music Video)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvAnQqVJ3XQ

  15. greywarshark 15
    19 December 2019 at 12:46 pm

    We can do something to help a previous helper who nursed burns victims from Whakaari Island.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/Whakaari-White-Island/405750/whaakari-white-island-nurse-who-helped-victims-sheila-cheng-killed-in-car-crash

    A very sad death to add to the toll. Help the helper.

    Sheila Cheng was killed in a car accident in the Bay of Plenty on Saturday, and her husband is in Waikato Hospital…

    The nurse's friend Amanda Lorin said it is every family's worst nightmare.

    A Givealittle page she set up to raise funds for the family has raised over $2000.

    …Sheila was an experienced intensive care nurse who had worked in Taiwan, training others, before coming to New Zealand more than two years ago.

    …Shelia had just gained a doctorate in nursing and started work at Whakatāne Hospital two months ago."She knew exactly what she was doing and I think they saw her as an angel that was sent because she knew so much about these burns victims."

  16. Tony Veitch (not etc.) 16
    19 December 2019 at 1:26 pm

    A Xmas present for the left? Or, at least, the promise of one.

    In his speech to parliament yesterday Winstone said NZ First has 'new information' on National Party fundraising and "we're coming for you."

    Here's hoping. At around the ten minute mark.

    https://www.parliament.nz/en/watch-parliament/ondemand?itemId=210859

  17. Dennis Frank 17
    19 December 2019 at 1:38 pm

    Update: "The report determines that “on the balance of probabilities, the emails … did not contain any attached document detailing her allegation of sexual assault by the respondent.” https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/18-12-2019/worst-nightmare-labour-staffer-complainants-respond-to-dew-report/

    Most people determine whether or not an email has a file attached. Lawyers apparently prefer to differ. Opine on the balance of probabilities rather than report the fact. They must have learnt the utility of the Schrodinger's cat thought experiment from physicists. However physicists use equations to calculate probabilities, such as whether the cat is alive or dead. They don't just refer to some kind of subjective guess and call it a balance.

    “There is no reference in Dew’s report to the email sent to the Labour panel on April 26 which seeks “an update on the investigation” and stresses: “Just adding the seriousness of the situation here, an accusation of sexual assault, manipulation, bullying and emotional abuse.””

    “Nor is there any reference to another email, dated June 11, sent to the three members of the investigation panel, in which the complainant directs them to “attached … notes of testimony”. The attached document, as previously reported by The Spinoff, contains clear reference to her allegation: “SEXUAL ASSAULT occurred February 2018”.”

    Why would anyone expect a QC to acknowledge evidence? Authority figures are appointed to announce personal opinion as verdict. So the Spinoff journalists saw the file attached to the email, but the QC couldn’t care less. And folks wonder why the justice system is in disrepute…

  18. Andre 18
    19 December 2019 at 3:02 pm

    🍑 on both counts: abuse of power and obstruction of Congress.

    Interesting play from Gabbard; voting present instead of yes or no.

    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/president-donald-trump-impeached_n_5df97044e4b08083dc5b1802

    • Andre 18.1
      19 December 2019 at 3:07 pm

      230 – 197 on abuse of power, two Dems voted with all the Repugs, they're from districts Tangerine Tantrump solidly won in 2016.

      229 – 198 on obstruction of Congress; the splitter was Jared Golden of Maine 2nd district (heavily rural and solidly for Genghis Don in 2016).

      Justin Amash (independent, formerly Repug from Michigan) voted to impeach on both counts.

      • McFlock 18.1.1
        19 December 2019 at 3:18 pm

        Gives her a unique selling point for the dems to select on, I guess.

        • Andre 18.1.1.1
          19 December 2019 at 3:20 pm

          Angling for a talking head gig at Fox or One America News Network?

          • McFlock 18.1.1.1.1
            19 December 2019 at 3:29 pm

            As a fallback plan that's an idea, but I was still thinking more like "dolt supporters don't hate me because I'm not partisan, so I can beat the orange one".

            But I reckon you might be more correct, the way she called the impeachment "partisan".

            • Andre 18.1.1.1.1.1
              19 December 2019 at 3:41 pm

              I can't believe she's so deluded she thinks there's a viable route to the White House. Looks to me like she's keenly aware of who her audience is and is playing them consciously and expertly.

              But she must be aware the sum total of convergence moonbats, second-option bias fantasists, alt-lefties etc is tiny. The alt-righters, middle-finger voters, David Dukes and other deplorables aren't going to vote for her while they've still got the waddling spray-tan warning label to vote for. Nor will the tribal Repugs whose only voting criteria is what's got an (R) next to its name, even if it's the mouldering three-weeks-dead corpse of a brothel-keeper.

      • tc 18.1.2
        19 December 2019 at 3:19 pm

        Interesting times if they expect the badly behaved tenant to depart as instructed.

        • Andre 18.1.2.1
          19 December 2019 at 3:30 pm

          Nobody is expecting the outcome to be the departure of the Combover Con.

          But impeachment still serves a bunch of purposes.

          First, if trying to extort a foreign country by withholding congress approved taxpayer funded aid to pressure that foreign country into smearing a domestic political opponent isn't so unacceptable to merit impeaching, then where's the line?

          Next, it further helps clarify what a bunch of spineless craven toadies the current crop of Repug senators really are.

          For the sake of those on phones that don't want to deal with a massive comment I'll leave it there …

          • McFlock 18.1.2.1.1
            19 December 2019 at 3:48 pm

            My favourite is if they keep investigating everything, any mismatch between his financial transactions and his tax returns will be made public. And while the repugs can protect him from federal crimes, their reach at a state level varies wildly.

            I'm sure NY will be very interested, for example. I really like the idea of him defending completely legitimate fraud charges to his grave.

            • Andre 18.1.2.1.1.1
              19 December 2019 at 3:55 pm

              There's already enough stuff in public that would have buried any other pollie. Like the differences in property valuations he told his lenders and what he told local authorities. I'd be astonished if there weren't already things in progress on those issues. But they won't do anything to constrain his behaviour while he remains in office.

  19. greywarshark 19
    19 December 2019 at 3:49 pm

    Is there no end to this hysterical, historical sexual accusation witchhunt thing?

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12295303

    Arthur Allan Thomas, the man pardoned of the infamous 1970 Crewe murders, has been charged with historical sexual offending.

    The 81-year-old's case was called today in the Manukau District Court where Judge Charles Blackie ordered his interim name suppression to lapse.

    Thomas faces four charges of indecent assault and one count of rape….

    The allegations are historical in nature and relate to two complainants, who have automatic name suppression, and recently came forward to police.

    Extensive suppression orders, however, remain and prevent the Herald from publishing further details, such as the date and place of the alleged offending.

    But Thomas' name is not suppressed. The women have been stewing about this for years and can apparently make a case. But there must be a limit. The justice and rightness together need to be carefully looked at.

    It is different about institutions. With institutions, and Catholic or other priests, the institution is also on trial along with its procedures. Has it known and there been a hush-hush acceptance, which needs examination and its lack of responsibility to those under its care.

    That 27 year old who has held a woman by the neck for heightened sexual effect, he is still not named is he. And he definitely killed that silly woman, and he is responsible for the force that she died from. Why isn't his name openly available, or has NZ suddenly become too dainty to cope with sexuality? We are a farming nation, and live by procreation. Strange attitudes.

    • Pingao 19.1
      19 December 2019 at 5:25 pm

      Murdering somebody by forcefully strangling them for at least 5 minutes isn't anything to do with sexuality.

      • Pingao 19.1.1
        19 December 2019 at 7:41 pm

        Probably could have worded that better … deliberately murdering someone isn't sexuality.

        But there is so much wrong with Grey's post – Psycho Milt and others spell out some of them. I don't think Greywarshark thinks of women as actual people.

    • anker 19.2
      19 December 2019 at 5:30 pm

      Grey I can't believe it. are you really referring Grace Millane as "that silly woman" or I have misunderstood what you are saying? Surely I have misunderstood. If not I think the moderators here need to take a look at this.

      The police have taken a case against Thomas based on the evidence the complainants presented. The Crown lawyers must feel there is a case to answer.

    • The Al1en 19.3
      19 December 2019 at 5:36 pm

      Is there no end to this hysterical, historical sexual accusation witchhunt thing?

      The women have been stewing about this for years and can apparently make a case. But there must be a limit.

      No there isn't, and nor should there be, but interesting why you would rape apologise your comment with the use of 'hysterical' and 'witch hunt' to describe sexual assaults and rape.

    • Psycho Milt 19.4
      19 December 2019 at 6:27 pm

      That 27 year old who has held a woman by the neck for heightened sexual effect, he is still not named is he. And he definitely killed that silly woman, and he is responsible for the force that she died from. Why isn't his name openly available, or has NZ suddenly become too dainty to cope with sexuality? We are a farming nation, and live by procreation. Strange attitudes.

      Oh, strange fucking attitudes alright. That is the strangest I've seen for a while.

      1. He didn't "hold a woman by the neck," he strangled a woman to death.

      2. The heightened sexual effect was for him. What she wanted or didn't want can't be known.

      3. Calling his victim "that silly woman" is seriously fucked up.

      4. His name isn't openly available because he appealed the dropping of name suppression and NZ has rule of law, not because NZ is "too dainty to cope with sexuality."

      5. Murdering someone isn't "sexuality"

      6. Murdering someone isn't "procreation," in fact it's kind of the opposite.

    • Stunned mullet 19.5
      21 December 2019 at 12:54 pm

      Disgraceful comment.

  20. Peter 20
    19 December 2019 at 4:07 pm

    I think its quite neat that you can imPEACH a NUT!

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