Open mike 19/12/2015

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, December 19th, 2015 - 75 comments
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75 comments on “Open mike 19/12/2015 ”

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  1. One Anonymous Bloke 1
    19 December 2015 at 7:57 am

    Meanwhile in Turkey…

    NATO allies agreed on Friday to send aircraft and ships to Turkey to strengthen Ankara’s air defences on its border with Syria, the alliance’s chief said, a package that is partly designed to avoid any more shoot-downs of Russian planes.

    Meanwhile in Turkey Kurdistan…

    Turkey’s pro-Kurdish party leader called for “honourable resistance” against security operations in southeast Turkey on Friday (Saturday NZ Time) as state media reported 55 Kurdish militants had been killed in three days of urban fighting there.

    Dangerously close to civil war.

    • greywarshark 1.1
      19 December 2015 at 8:49 pm

      I think the countries around Syria should declare a moratorium? and decide that a renewal of war will start again on 1 April. Everything being done is escalating the situation and the unreason in the minds of those plotting and planning against their opposition or enemies proceeds exponentially. Spray them with tranquillisers or something.

      Did everyone see that summary of the combatants and power positions from Private Eye. It makes it very clear that this is a murky situation.

      Private Eye has some useful points. (Approx date 7 Dec 2015)
      https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CV8KC-QWIAAE5MJ.jpg

  2. AsleepWhileWalking 2
    19 December 2015 at 8:16 am

    When the Fed raised interest rates by 1/4 of a percent, it incentivised banks to keep money in the reserves held by the Fed (risk free return as it also pays 1/4 percent to those banks).

    This incentive means less money will be lent to businesses in the US, reducing the velocity of money and potentially crashing the economy.

    • Reddelusion 2.1
      20 December 2015 at 10:29 am

      So you are for more QE then to keep asset bubble going , I don’t think .25 of a percent will crash the economy, there is also an opportunity cost of a ROI of .25 percent, not to mention threat of inflation leading to a negative return

  3. AsleepWhileWalking 3
    19 December 2015 at 8:24 am

    Last night Spanish PM punched in the face. Hard.

  4. Morrissey 4
    19 December 2015 at 8:26 am

    Latest ACT candidate announced

    At least this guy is a step up from the likes of Garrett, Whyte and Hide.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 4.1
      19 December 2015 at 8:30 am

      That’s in fairly poor taste Morrissey: almost Prime Ministerial, akshully.

      • Morrissey 4.1.1
        19 December 2015 at 8:56 am

        Sorry. I withdraw and apologise.

      • weka 4.1.2
        19 December 2015 at 8:58 am

        I thought the use of [sic] was a nice touch in quoting Key. A journo or subeditor who’s had enough.

        • Anne 4.1.2.1
          19 December 2015 at 9:10 am

          At the risk of exposing my education (the lack thereof), ignorance, naivety, stupidity and plain gormlessness… what exactly does [sic] mean? And when do you use it? 🙁

          • Karen 4.1.2.1.1
            19 December 2015 at 9:33 am

            “sic” is a latin word meaning “thus” and it is used to indicate you are quoting something as it was written, even though you know it is spelt or used incorrectly in some way, and you want to highlight the fact that you have noticed the mistake.

          • Sans Cle 4.1.2.1.2
            19 December 2015 at 9:35 am

            Anne, I note a curious, enquiring and active mind in you….nothing else!
            “Sic.” means the mistake in whatever was written was by the original author, if someone is commenting on someone else’s writing. It’s like acknowledging a mistake that someone else has made, or saying “it was written like that”.

            • Anne 4.1.2.1.2.1
              19 December 2015 at 10:57 am

              Thank-you for the compliment Sans Cle. I was having a bit of a dig at me – you know… that notorious tendency of those “who” came from the Mother country (oops I reveal my bias) to laugh aloud at oneself.

          • ianmac 4.1.2.1.3
            19 December 2015 at 9:37 am

            sic used to point to an exact copy as it was written. “He said he was their (sic)”

          • weka 4.1.2.1.4
            19 December 2015 at 9:40 am

            It’s used when quoting someone’s words (written or spoken) where the person doing the quoting wants to make it clear that the mistake in the grammar or whatever is the original person’s mistake, not the quoter’s, and that the original is being quoted.

            Key was quoted as saying,

            “It’s quite possible that it’s legitimate. There are people that [sic] have multiple passports because they have multiple citizenship. So there are lots of people who travel on both an Australian and New Zealand passport and might theoretically do that at one time.

            The person that wrote the article put [sic] there is show that it was Key that said ‘that’ instead of ‘who’. Normally I’d expect the Herald to let Key’s loose use of language stand on its own, but it was funny to see someone pointing it out.

            In places like ts, [sic] gets used by pedants who feel the need to point out the error of others as part of their debate strategy (as opposed to clarifying that the quote is the original).

            • Puddleglum 4.1.2.1.4.1
              19 December 2015 at 3:23 pm

              “The person that [sic] wrote the article put [sic] there is [sic] show that it was Key that [sic]…”

              From today’s pedant-in-residence 🙂

          • Wainwright 4.1.2.1.5
            19 December 2015 at 9:55 am

            Means they’re reporting exactly what was said and they know it looks like a typo. It’s like “not my bad”.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 4.1.2.2
          19 December 2015 at 1:52 pm

          Now I’m wondering what the [sic] refers to. Is it the use of “that” instead of ‘who’? Or should that be ‘whom’?

          Grammar lessons 🙂

          • weka 4.1.2.2.1
            19 December 2015 at 2:25 pm

            Someone had to ask 🙄 (I only thought about it ;-P ).


            usage: 1 A continuing debate in English usage is the question of when to use who and when to use whom. According to formal grammar, who forms the subjective case and so should be used in subject position in a sentence, as in who decided this? The form whom, on the other hand, forms the objective case and so should be used in object position in a sentence, as in whom do you think we should support?; to whom do you wish to speak? Although there are some speakers who still use who and whom according to the rules of formal grammar as stated here, there are many more who rarely use whom at all; its use has retreated steadily and is now largely restricted to formal contexts. The normal practice in modern English is to use who instead of whom (and, where applicable, to put the preposition at the end of the sentence): who do you wish to speak to?; who do you think we should support? Such uses are today broadly accepted in standard English. 2 On the use of who and that in relative clauses see usage at that.

            So I’d say ‘who’ in both formal and modern usage.

            • Puddleglum 4.1.2.2.1.1
              19 December 2015 at 3:27 pm

              I remember being taught at school that if the ‘answer’ was ‘him’ or ‘her’ then use ‘whom’ – if it was ‘he’ or ‘she’ use ‘who’.

              E.g., ‘To whom did you address the email?’ Ans.: – ‘To her’.
              E.g., ‘Who received the email?’ Ans.: – ‘She did’.

              • Tracey …
                19 December 2015 at 3:41 pm

                OooooooOooooooo

              • One Anonymous Bloke …
                19 December 2015 at 6:34 pm

                So the [sic] is for using “that” not ‘who’, I guess. Who knows with journalists 😈

                • In Vino …
                  19 December 2015 at 9:11 pm

                  Thank you, Grant.

                  Everyone who thinks you cannot use ‘that’ for people should read Grant’s link. Sorry, but John Key’s use of ‘that’ was perfectly correct, and ‘sic’ should not have been used.

                  The correct ‘rule’ (i.e., accepted practice) is: Who/whom for people. Which for things.
                  All of these can be replaced by ‘that’ in a defining relative clause. It is optional.
                  When the defining relative pronoun is in the object case it can also be entirely omitted.

                  All these examples are correct;

                  ‘The boy whom I saw yesterday’.
                  ‘The boy who I saw yesterday’. (‘Whom’ is often seen as archaic in modern grammar books.)
                  ‘The boy that I saw yesterday’.
                  ‘The boy I saw yesterday.’ In all these sentences the relative clause is defining because it is telling you which particular boy.

                  ‘That’ cannot be used when the clause is not a defining one, but is just supplying extra info, and separated off with commas. Two such sentences where ‘that’ cannot be used are:

                  ‘Mrs Grey, who is very good at knitting, can speak Swedish.’
                  ‘This car, which has an V8 engine, belongs to Mrs Grey.’ These relative clauses are not telling you which car or which Mrs Grey, and if you try to substitute ‘that’ , you will instantly sense that it is wrong.

                  Now have a Merry Christmas, and make sure you get all this right in your Happy New Year!

  5. Rodel 5
    19 December 2015 at 9:33 am

    Morning….
    sic 1 |sik|
    adverb
    used in brackets after a copied or quoted word that appears odd or erroneous to show that the word is quoted exactly as it stands in the original, as in a story must hold a child’s interest and “enrich his [ sic ] life.”
    ORIGIN Latin, literally ‘so, thus.’

    In, ‘other words he/she said it ..not my words.’

  6. marty mars 6
    19 December 2015 at 10:00 am

    a Saint Teresa
    miracle upon miracle
    gods knows, god no!
    Suitable to purpose
    that reindear warrior
    and santa’s going down.
    My memories don’t fade
    a steel steal silences as a sharpened cross,
    abused idols abuse.
    Detritus is a beach
    as the bodies float
    stare up at upwards.
    A Saintly body, a teary
    tree, a snowy sun and
    my hand is still dirty

  7. veutoviper 7
    19 December 2015 at 10:07 am

    One of the aspects of the Hager raid was the speed with which NZ Police moved on Slater’s complaint last year – first informally to Assistant Commissioner Burgess and then a formal complaint about a week later.

    With the release of the Court decision on the Judicial Review into the illegality of the police raid on Hager, similarities (and questions of political pressure) have been drawn to the speed with which the Police moved on the Teapot Tapes episode prior to the 2011 election, involving Bradley Ambrose.

    Back on 2 December I posted an update (including links) on Bradley Ambrose’s defamation claim against John Key on Open Mike.
    http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-02122015/#comment-1103686

    In brief, Ambrose filed this claim a year ago in December 2014 seeking $1.25m in damages from Key for remarks he made about Ambrose at the time of the Teapot Tapes saga.

    In March this year, the AKL High Court set down a two-week trial to commence on 16 February 2016. Several pre-trial conferences have been held during 2015, including on 2 Dec – hence my earlier post that day.

    RNZ News reported on this High Court hearing on Dec 2 here:
    https://t.co/PVvQuj5I60 [deleted by request]

    A further ‘case management’ conference was held yesterday in the High Court, which does not appear to have been reported on by media.

    So it would appear that the defamation trial is still likely to go ahead in February 2016, unless an out of court settlement is reached beforehand.

    To date, Key has maintained that he would not settle with Ambrose or resile from his statements etc that led to the defamation claims and “in the end it will go through the court process”.

    IMHO, the timing of the trial, a week after Parliament resumes and as the second flag referendum starts, will not be a good look or start to the year for Key. It may also well reignite discussion on the Hager raid decision due to the similarities. So, will he do a flip flop and settle to avoid these consequences?

    • veutoviper 7.1
      19 December 2015 at 11:02 am

      After writing the above comment, I read the discussion last night on Daily Review starting with Karen’s at 7 re Assistant Police Commissioner Malcolm Burgess being a common factor in both the Ambrose teapot tape case and the Hager raid. I had forgotten that commonality.

      http://thestandard.org.nz/what-was-nationals-role-in-the-police-raid-on-nicky-hager/#comment-1110497

      In that thread, Seeker at 7.2 questioned the role of Burgess and raised Burgess’ remarks at the time (Mar 2012) that the police decided not to prosecute Ambrose BUT that he was probably guilty.

      I have replied to Seeker providing links to Burgess’ press release on this and also to a Graeme Edgeler post on this at the Public Address blog. As mentioned in the reply, I would not be surprised if Burgess’ inappropriate* remarks re Ambrose form part of the defamation claim.

      * Inapproriate because it is the role of the judicial system, not that of the Police, to determine innocence or guilt.

      • Tracey 7.1.1
        19 December 2015 at 3:44 pm

        Always great to read your stuff.

        • seeker 7.1.1.1
          19 December 2015 at 7:02 pm

          Agreed Tracey. Thanks once again vv.
          How often are assistant commissioners changed and who appoints them? What criteria is used? I noticed the commissioner changed after two or was it three years. M.Burgess seems to have been assistant comm. for quite a while.

  8. Rodel 8
    19 December 2015 at 10:18 am

    I used to be proud of being a New Zealander for a time in the Lange era but especially in the Helen Clark years. Some time ago on a European train journey I met an Italian athlete and others from various countries who admired her, felt positive toward our nation and wanted to talk about New Zealand.and our values.
    But now….dunno if I’d mention my nationality thanks to the clownish antics of the current PM as reported on CNN…cringe…
    Call me old fashioned but I think/hope our next PM will have a sense of dignity and a little more integrity.

    • weka 8.1
      19 December 2015 at 11:11 am

      Yes, and I’m sure that there are people who vote National that cringe as well.

    • One Two 8.2
      19 December 2015 at 2:01 pm

      Why would anyone handover their sense of self worth to a political system or any 3rd party..

      Pride is a nation state is a flawed concept

      • weka 8.2.1
        19 December 2015 at 7:15 pm

        We are tribal beings, evolved to value the collective.

        • Bill 8.2.1.1
          19 December 2015 at 8:36 pm

          Really? And if ‘the collective’ or ‘the tribe’ is state fascism (Leninism/Stalinism etc) or corporate fascism (Mussolini, Hitler etc) – then what? You think people are ‘hard wired’ to value those things? (Some do value them). But what you’re implying is that there can be no critical evaluation that protects autonomy within a collective or societal context; that forms of fascism are inevitable.

          Big topic. And sorry. Any discussion is going to have to wait. Or do I do a ‘break’ post on authoritarianism – on ‘left and right’ – on the position of ‘social democracy’ within that (apparent) dichotomy? Hmm.

          edit. Why is there no ‘ism’ for Hitler or Mussolini, but there is for Lenin and Stalin and Mao et al? Just a throw-away…probably unimportant, quiet puzzling.

    • Naki man 8.3
      19 December 2015 at 3:41 pm

      “Call me old fashioned but I think/hope our next PM will have a sense of dignity and a little more integrity”

      I am sure you will be proud of PM Paula Bennett

    • John Shears 8.4
      19 December 2015 at 3:42 pm

      Rodel ,
      Nicely put.
      You have reminded me of a previous era and a PM called
      Sidney George Holland which was much like the present and quite the opposite to the Lange /Clark era that you have mentioned.

      Holland was invited to be a member of the WW11 non-partisan non political cabinet, he attended for a short period and then left and never returned. His next notorious act was of course how he handled the waterfront strike in 1951.
      Must be something in the Nat PM’s DNA or they drink the wrong
      stuff , dunno but it is becoming a pain again.
      Bring on integrity and dignity.

    • Reddelusion 8.5
      20 December 2015 at 10:37 am

      Solution, don’t let politicians define you. otherwise every few years you will be disappointed, unfortunately for the left more years than not.

  9. Penny Bright 9
    19 December 2015 at 10:31 am

    I agree with David Farrar’s prediction – Phil Goff won’t be elected Auckland Mayor.

    Only 36% of Auckland voters bothered back in 2013.

    No disrespect Labour MP Phil Goff – but what on earth is ‘inspiring’ about your policies, or more importantly, your proven track record as a pro-corporate ‘Rogernome’ – who helped inflict the neo-liberal Rogernomic$ agenda upon unsuspecting New Zealanders in the 1984 – 87 LABOUR Government?

    Why would the 64% of Auckland voters – who didn’t bother back in 2013 – be inspired to vote for you as Auckland Mayor in 2016?

    What underpinning ‘Rogernomic$’ legislative pillars did you or the Helen Clark led 1999 – 2008 Labour Government ever help to dismantle?

    (Nothing personal here Phil – but FACTS are FACTS and TRUTH is TRUTH.)

    Also – don’t forget that the Auckland Water Pressure which led public opposition to the hated Metrowater, was founded in Avondale, and with their support in the 2000 Auckland City Council Avondale -MT ROSKILL by-election in 2000, I polled 2nd, 700 votes behind Noelene Raffills, and over 4000 votes more than the City Vision (Labour / Alliance) candidate.

    That was over fifteen years ago ….

    So – in Phil Goff’s ‘home base’ Mt Roskill electorate – where he is very well known – so am I.

    Penny Bright

    2016 Auckland Mayoral candidate.

    • Visubversa 9.1
      19 December 2015 at 11:21 am

      Yes but you didn’t win the by-election Penny. And Metrowater remained. The Water Pressure group achieved nothing except to give Banks his Council majority in 2001 so he could sell the Council Housing and the Airport shares. And in Roskill you ensured that the “Sage of the Whau” had many years to spread her ignorance and christianist bigotry around Council.

      • Karen 9.1.1
        19 December 2015 at 11:42 am

        +1 Visubversa

        • Colonial Viper 9.1.1.1
          19 December 2015 at 2:43 pm

          Neither of you seem to have expressed a problem with Penny’s major points:

          That Goff has no inspiring policies, and is deeply tied to the ongoing Labour era of Rogernomics-style thinking.

          • Visubversa 9.1.1.1.1
            19 December 2015 at 3:32 pm

            Rogernomics? yawn – 25 years ago. Move on brother.

            • adam 9.1.1.1.1.1
              19 December 2015 at 3:43 pm

              Visubversa you need to get handle of economics and what the fundamental changes to our economics has been since the mid 80’s.

              At present you sound like a fool.

              • Visubversa …
                19 December 2015 at 5:12 pm

                Don’t insult people you don’t know. I was there in the 1980’s – working for a Union and against the Rogergnomes. As far as Phil Goff is concerned I have know him since 1981 and I have seen him all the way through. I am not what I was in 1987 and neither is he. I think he is the person in the best position to be elected to be Mayor of Auckland for the widest number of people.

          • Karen 9.1.1.1.2
            19 December 2015 at 5:00 pm

            I’m no fan of Goff but at least he has an idea of how local and national politics work, he supports public transport and he is opposed to further privatising of Auckland’s assets. The only policies I have seen from Penny are ones that as mayor she would not be able to achieve, as has been explained to her many times. In addition, her responses to Generation Zero at the last local elections were bizarre, and I have yet to see her resile from them.

            Goff’s policies may not be inspiring (whatever that means) but they are a lot better than those being offered by the candidates on the right. I also hope Goff becomes Auckland’s mayor because I would like to see him out of the Labour caucus.

    • stigie 9.2
      19 December 2015 at 1:10 pm

      VICTORIA CRONE:- New Mayor for Auckland.

    • Cricklewood 9.3
      19 December 2015 at 5:35 pm

      Strange I haven’t seen you at any of the public meetings regarding the quarry redevelopment ando the iffy deals done around land swaps etc.
      It’s so bad the local board is intending on filing with the ombudsman given the rights they were given under the supercity have been vetoed by council and the whole thing is headed to the environment court. Not to mention fletchers drafting emails for the minister to send to len brown. (Whose antics during council on this matter have to be seen to be believed…) I would have thought if you regarded yourself a serious candidate you would have been involved with this especially given the slightly wiffy odour eminating from the whole deal…

  10. Morrissey 10
    19 December 2015 at 10:35 am

    The Most Heart-warming Photo of the Year

    “Hope is the thing with feathers….”

    —Emily Dickinson

    http://media.cmgdigital.com/shared/lt/lt_cache/aresize/835×529/img/photos/2015/12/10/fa/a7/trump_eagle_2.PNG

  11. Whispering Kate 11
    19 December 2015 at 10:37 am

    Am wondering if Peter Dundas Walbran who obtained a NZ passport but originally had held an Australian one should now, be deported back to Australia. Key is saying he obtained the NZ passport illegally, why cannot our government just remove the passport off him and send him back to presumably where he originally came from Australia?? The NZ passport is the most recent one he has obtained. Walbran is obviously a recidivist pedophile and NZ was his second choice for a passport. Why should we have to put up with his noxious habits. Australia may not like it but they are doing much the same with our criminal offenders, many who have often lived there almost all of their lives. Just a thought and will Key will have the guts to do it.

    • alwyn 11.1
      19 December 2015 at 12:40 pm

      I fear you may have missed one word in what Key said Kate. He didn’t say that he had obtained it illegally, at least in the story I read.
      In the Herald he is quoted as saying “”But if it’s an illegal passport, that’s a very different issue but I don’t have any advice about that.”
      There is that little word “if” in the statement.
      On the other hand Key may have made a later statement that I have not seen. Have you seen a further comment where he did label it as being obtained illegally?
      Even if he had obtained the passport illegally it wouldn’t be sufficient reason to deport him though. He would still be, unfortunately, a New Zealand citizen wouldn’t he?
      The people that Australia are deporting aren’t Australian citizens, as far as I am aware. They are people who haven’t taken out citizenship there, for whatever reason.

      • Whispering Kate 11.1.1
        20 December 2015 at 8:27 am

        I confess Alwyn that I thought he said it was obtained illegally. Even if it wasn’t, because of his criminal activities if the Government revoked his NZ passport he then would have to live in an airport lounge out of danger to the public, a stateless person – he was a holder of an Australian one previously where he was probably born. It seems crazy to me that he was able to obtain a NZ one anyway. Are Australians able to apply for NZ passports ad hoc for no good reason would you not have to have legitimate criteria to be accepted for dual citizenship. He had a criminal record before he applied so it seems insane he was allowed a NZ passport in the first place. Our Internal/External Affairs needs a good shake up.

  12. Penny Bright 12
    19 December 2015 at 10:54 am

    Which of private business woman Victoria Crone’s local government knowledge, experience, proven track record and stated policies, makes her ‘fit for duty’ as Auckland Mayor?

    Any information or views on this one?

    Penny Bright

    2016 Auckland Mayoral candidate.

    • weka 13.1
      19 December 2015 at 12:38 pm

      That’s pink ;-p

    • ianmac 13.2
      19 December 2015 at 3:18 pm

      Brilliant Morrissey. You have captured the embedded National bloke so well. I know quite a few others just like him except some wear suits. No wonder some of the responses are wild – like seeing their real selves in a mirror. Ha!

  15. Draco T Bastard 15
    19 December 2015 at 4:56 pm

    Nasty Christmas present for seniors

    “The Prime Minister has been talking about tax cuts in future but he is funding them by cutting services to people who have given years of work to our country.

    “The Auckland Council has already looked at chopping free non-peak transport and today ECan is considering cuts as well. This is a short-sighted decision by the Government and will be a Scrooge-like Christmas present for our seniors,” Ruth Dyson says.

    National: Kicking poor people in the goolies since forever.

    • sabine 15.1
      20 December 2015 at 5:54 pm

      Free non peak travel on local busses got nothing to do with poor people.

      We are talking about the gold card holders, our good ole citizens above 65 and they all receive the Gold Card irrespective of income.

      But, for many of the retired population that gold card allows them to get out and about a little bit every now and then, and with something like 10 – 15 $ one way from south akl to inner city, or from the shore to innercity it does hurt those on a fixed income.

      John Key, the National Posse and their voters / enablers are starting to eat their own.

  16. Gangnam Style 16
    19 December 2015 at 5:40 pm

    Micky Hager, https://overland.org.au/previous-issues/issue-219/feature-nicky-hager/ talks about keeping sources safe & why he loves doing investigative journalism. The last sentence is a zinger!

  17. Draco T Bastard 17
    19 December 2015 at 6:29 pm

    ‘Enough power for Mars lander’: NASA tests first 3D-printed space engine (VIDEO)

    A fully 3D-printed rocket engine is almost complete: 75 percent of all the necessary parts have already been manufactured, put together and successfully tested by NASA.

    As I’ve said before, 3D printing is the future of manufacturing. It is the engine that will destroy global trade as with it any country can produce anything at the same economies of scale and efficiencies as any other country.

    For this reason our government should be spending billions per year developing our own 3D printing capabilities.

  18. Rodel 18
    19 December 2015 at 11:56 pm

    I’ve noticed that the PM in parliament question time and interviews, in his desperation to make a goading point usually misses (or tries to ignore) the real issue being discussed.
    Also noticed that Nat or ACT supporters who contribute (sic) to debates on TS try to emulate John Key by doing the same thing usually inefficaciously.

    Is it caused by Crosby Textor mantras, or a fear of engaging in real debate or just intelligence deficit?

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