Open Mike 21/07/2018

Written By: - Date published: 5:53 am, July 21st, 2018 - 94 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose. The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

94 comments on “Open Mike 21/07/2018 ”

  • Comments are now closed

  1. Morrissey 1
    21 July 2018 at 8:19 am

    Disgusting. And absurd.
    Head to Head, Al Jazeera, recorded on July 8, 2018

    Right now, Israeli apologist Danny Ayalon is on, being interviewed by Mehdi Hasan. Ayalon is not only disgusting, he is ridiculous. He is so ridiculous that the crowd is laughing at him.

    MEHDI HASAN: Does Israel control Gaza’s airspace, yes or no?
    DANNY AYALON: No.
    AUDIENCE: Ha ha ha ha ha!

    ….

    DANNY AYALON: Israel is transparent.
    AUDIENCE: Ha ha ha ha ha!

    ad nauseam….

    • Adrian Thornton 1.1
      21 July 2018 at 9:30 am

      +1
      Here is a good short piece on Apartheid Israel

    • SaveNZ 1.2
      21 July 2018 at 11:34 am

      Shocking. Also do they really think state sanctioned murder of innocent medical staff is helping their cause, let alone breaking how many human rights conventions??? Can’t wait for the day when they are all bought to justice and put in jail.

      4: Israeli forces ‘deliberately killed’ Palestinian paramedic Razan
      https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2018/07/19/tdb-top-5-international-stories-thursday-19th-july-2018/

      • greywarshark 1.2.1
        21 July 2018 at 1:10 pm

        Everyone of any faith, should pray for Israel. Having been taken to the edge of the pit of human degradation and contempt and thrown over during WW2, they have been left with a sadness and anger.

        Now they are losing their souls that were almost destroyed before, Seemingly they are unable to get out from the retaliation phase. Fear of the past forces them to ensure they prevent a recurrence. That fear remains to cripple them from expanding their hearts and embracing the present and future in wary diplomatic civil compromise with Palestinians, and to carefully treat with others who may be mendacious.

  2. Rosemary McDonald 2
    21 July 2018 at 9:11 am

    Good morning Standardnistas, and what are we going to discuss/argue today?

    How about we ponder the twenty year (plus) battle the Nepata brothers have had with the Defence Force…through numerous changes of government?

    https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/2018/07/the-battle-of-nepata/

    A long and somewhat convoluted read in that weird does- your- head- in sliding screen format… but stick with it.

    Ron Mark has ‘championed’ the brothers Nepata for many years and thinks this latest attempt for justice might be their last…

    George and Damien think they may have a chance with this new administration, but as with the Family Carers case (been running for the same amount of time) the ‘floodgates’ argument is being touted as the reason to dismiss this, again.

    Oh look! There’s Our Learned Friends from Crown Law…doing their very best to protect Government from being accountable for it’s failings.

    • dV 2.1
      21 July 2018 at 9:36 am

      Agree, The format is crap!!!

    • OnceWasTim 2.2
      21 July 2018 at 9:37 am

      Roll on Chris Hipkins’ review of what’s become of our public service! Let’s hope it doesn’t end up namby pamby wish washing.
      NZDF, Houising NZ, MSD, MPI, MoBIE, Health, Education, DHBs…………..
      There are huge structural problems but management culture has become toxic too with fuck all accountability

      • cleangreen 2.2.1
        21 July 2018 at 10:55 am

        True that is Tim,
        Publ;ic service is still being run by “advisors” that even labour are condoning, so if labour have no balls to actually change anything within the “public service” attitudes inside the NZDF, Houising NZ, MSD, MPI, MoBIE, Health, Education, DHBs………….. we are in for more of the shame crap as we endured for the last nine years.

        • Rosemary McDonald 2.2.1.1
          21 July 2018 at 11:51 am

          “… we are in for more of the shame crap as we endured for the last nine years.”

          Well, I for one voted to change that.

          I gave this Current Mob a mandate, ffs.

          Use it, or lose it.

      • greywarshark 2.2.2
        21 July 2018 at 1:37 pm

        Once was Tim
        Even if the mass of National Party don’t give a f..k about the injustice or unfairness in the system (that oppresses other less fortunate citizens) they should be roused if the case is presented on the basis of waste of taxpayers money on falsified figures, and incorrect data, and signing off on important regulations with life-killing or disease potential, and far too high executive incomes based on profit-making private business levels.

        I see people on low salary or grants or volunteering, working away trying to bridge the gaps in this vicious financial economic system and integrity-free government and welfare system. They are being loaded with Health and Safety Regulations and others, which are a load of bureaucratic sh.t, OTT and a barrier to ordinary effective good management and control. The managers should be drowned in wine barrels and people who have served at the grassrootes then put in their place. This is after they have got training in management implementation and structural control for the co-operative model.

        And gradually replace all the Brits, 5-Eyes types, and assorted coming here and directing our water onto their farms, and our money into their pockets. When it comes to immigration look at all these people. Our immigrants are mostly great people from wherever they come, and I admire and like them. But we have too many stepping into the line of employment ahead of NZs. That’s not new information but it seems necessary to constantly reiterate it over the catch-cry of immigration being xenophobic. We citizens have a responsibility to care for our own country and other NZs to be trained as bureaucrats who work for our betterment. At present they too often sit in their spiderwebs and pounce on naive NZs who wander in all unknowing, and never understand why nothing ever goes right for them.

        • OnceWasTim 2.2.2.1
          21 July 2018 at 8:09 pm

          Christ @ Greywarshark! DO we know each other?

          Seriously though, the dysfunction in our PS is now well known by those that care to know. The question is, now that there is the opportunity for reform, is anyone going to take on the challenge, or will it be a few weasel words and business as usual,
          I see a few signs that there is a growing acceptance that things have radically gone tits up……but – probably like you and Rosemary: waiting waiting waiting.

          • JC 2.2.2.1.1
            21 July 2018 at 9:05 pm

            Waiting Also …

            In the event you missed this …

            “Initially, Sanson says he’s not seeing a clash between pro-corporate factions within DOC against pro-conservation people, but then he gives some ground. “It may be at one location in the country, yes, but not over the department.”

            https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2018/07/12/151517/docs-culture-wars-revealed

            PS. (There was a follow up article to this the day after … that can’t put finger on just Now), that suggested some action was being taken in One location ……

            • JO 2.2.2.1.1.1
              22 July 2018 at 11:07 am

              It might depend on what that ‘action’ is … this article?

              https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2018/07/16/155418/insiders-pan-docs-corporate-embrace#

              ‘One former DOC worker reckons it’s going to be hard for Minister Sage to change the department’s culture, given its focus on “corporate management processes and outcomes and reports and organisational change”.’

              • JC …
                22 July 2018 at 9:31 pm

                Not totally clear what you are saying JO… ?

                Figure with the added missing Link you are following/understand, and/or are perhaps affected …. ?

                A past life for me … But Very sad to watch, and hear of a great organisation, (Public Service), get the stick from MSM, (albeit David Williams, Newsroom)

                “Four years on, the DOC staffer says after the “Nick disaster”, they can’t see how DOC can reach its potential by the route it’s taking. “It’s just a bloody tragedy. It’s tragic what’s happening to DOC.”

                Trust “that action”, And/or the necessary Change occurs with P S/ Ministerial impute, as necessary/required and does not become dependent on the 4th Estate “MSM” articles … Credit to Newsroom if things are Crook! And Need Fixing!

    • SaveNZ 2.3
      21 July 2018 at 9:40 am

      The government spends more on Lawyers fighting against fairness ‘to stop the floodgates’ than if they actually apologised, investigated properly and did the moral thing at the beginning.

      Not only that, probably would save money on the massive legal fees to fat cats who seem to be beyond the law, and years of litigation which also stops people believing in government being honest and accountable, any more. (Because they use legal and power to fight against what is right against people who have been screwed over or had harm, by the system).

      I seem to remember the victims of state care, got less for their abuse eventually, than the lawyers who represented them got in fees.

      Likewise the carer’s, etc etc.

      Being just and fair, is not being wrong.

      • Rosemary McDonald 2.3.1
        21 July 2018 at 10:13 am

        “Being just and fair, is not being wrong.”

        Ah, but now he’s wearing big boy pants Ron Mark appears to be struggling with those distinctions.

        https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/105626884/emotional-ron-mark-has-misgivings-about-defence-force-treatment-of-injured-nepata-brothers

        • Incognito 2.3.1.1
          21 July 2018 at 11:11 am

          Ah, but now he’s wearing big boy pants Ron Mark appears to be struggling with those distinctions.

          Without commenting at all on the specifics of the Nepata case, if I may, I think this is indicative of a more general issue that Ministers often find themselves confronted with. It is neatly portrayed in a very good ‘portrait’ of Eugenie Sage:

          The human drama of power. Sage says what struck her was the abrupt switch from being on the outside looking in – stalled for six months by the sitting minister on every information request – to having a staff ready to jump on any question.

          …

          A warm fuzzy feeling as minister. Again, the very human drama of suddenly finding yourself the one on the inside, now looking out.

          https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/105577646/national-portrait-long-apprenticeship-of-the-minister-with-her-hand-on-doc

          • Rosemary McDonald 2.3.1.1.1
            21 July 2018 at 11:16 am

            I get where you’re coming from…but two things…both Sage and Mark have been around the traps for a while, they surely knew the score? Were prepared?

            And secondly…both are members of a very carefully and intensely negotiated coalition government who promised to do shit differently.

            And thirdly….what is the term used to describe when the military goes against the orders of a democratically elected government?

    • Rosemary McDonald 2.4
      21 July 2018 at 9:59 am

      Back in 2013….the brothers Nepata discovered that the Defence Force had, during the time they had battling for compensation from the DF, handed out over 1/2 a million dollars in ex gratia payments.

      When confronted….bullshit ensued….https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11122334

      ” Dr Coleman earlier said he had enormous sympathy for the brothers and was approaching the matter with an open mind. The Defence Force would not comment on the case while the matter was under his consideration.

      Earlier this year, Defence Force chief of personnel Brigadier Howard Duffy said the army was very sympathetic to the brothers, but an ex gratia payment was a matter for the Government.

      However, under Defence Force orders, last updated in October 2011, the force is able to authorise ex gratia payments of up to $30,000 without ministerial sign-off.

      Ex gratia payments of between $30,000 to $75,000 must be authorised by the minister, while payments of more than $75,000 need to be signed off by Cabinet.”

      • SaveNZ 2.4.1
        21 July 2018 at 11:17 am

        What a sad story and so unfair that this particular family had so much to deal with. The first thing that should be happening is that the army reforms it’s way’s and actually have psychologists and other support staff to help ex army staff to recover after injuries including apologising if it was a work place accident and giving them FULL support. It is unfathomable that after telling the army they are a family, to them suddenly abandon soldiers who get injured to face it all alone with out even a goodbye, especially when they are injured in the line of duty or during training!

        Then there should be pay outs straight away (aka like airline accidents) and annuities available to those permanently injured to stop them falling into poverty after their accident. This should be in addition to ACC and other benefits as part of the act of being in the armed forces!

        One of my family members served and they got a pension as well as the normal pension so maybe some sort of non means tested annuity payment for permanently injured soldiers as well as pensions should be made as well as a lump sum as soon as they are injured to help them adjust AND emotional support right through from the armed forces. Whether injured or not, the soldiers should still be counted as the armed forces and treated with dignity and support.

        Also think the armed forces should be retrained to also do disaster work and be front line disaster workers for earthquakes, floods etc etc. Then Kiwis would be much more interested in supporting them because at present the armed forces seem like political pawns with defence just a junket to give money to other countries for armaments while not valuing the actual people who are in the armed forces who should be ready to help in a disaster when Kiwis might actually need them.

        • Rosemary McDonald 2.4.1.1
          21 July 2018 at 11:49 am

          Funny thing is, I spoke with a couple of ex defence force personnel regarding particular disability issues (accessible housing building rules if I recall) and the issue the Nepata brothers were facing came up. (I had met George and his family briefly when Damien was in hospital).

          Both these guys had been well looked after and supported by the DF…but then again they were Officers. And I assume that makes them Gentlemen. And worthy.

          Close scrutiny of those ex gratia payments made by the DF would be handy…

          • SaveNZ 2.4.1.1.1
            21 July 2018 at 11:55 am

            Maybe also racially or class motivated?

          • SaveNZ 2.4.1.1.2
            21 July 2018 at 12:02 pm

            Hard to see why someone who was slowly burnt alive for hours and another who was paralysed during training through no fault of their own, do not qualify for a moral payment?

        • SaveNZ 2.4.1.2
          21 July 2018 at 11:54 am

          When you watch how other countries behave aka Thai cave rescue it casts a shadow on government and private attitudes in NZ when they do nothing to rescue anybody citing too dangerous and fail to do the right thing post accident (shareholders vote against compensation for Pike River families for example)…

          We have developed a toxic workplace/government mentality in NZ post rogernomics where people are just disposable units to be thrown away to save money or reduce a perceived monetary or corporation risk.

          Not only is this morally wrong, it does not work to create a thriving environment – toxic ideas and behaviour kills everything around it.

    • millsy 2.5
      21 July 2018 at 12:08 pm

      Sad story really. Hope these guys get what they deserve. I don’t really think 30-75,000 is enough. It would barely pay for a modified vehicle for the tetarplegic chap. Seems that every accident like these ones in the military seems to be entirely avoidable and the victims get hung out to dry. Even by 1989 standards, getting 2 guys to carry a third on a stretcher on a piece of 4×2 is asking for trouble.

      • Rosemary McDonald 2.5.1
        21 July 2018 at 12:26 pm

        millsy…ACC will be taking care of the vehicle funding as well as home modifications, supplies and ongoing care and rehabilitation. George is most likely well supported by ACC (although,( again its wayback), there might have been a battle to secure ACC funding as accidents to Kiwis outside of NZ were not covered.)

        I do recall George telling me about his accident, and also heard some of the details of Damien’s accident. Even back then it was obvious that the Army failed to provide a safe working environment. As you say…even by 1989 standards it was pretty bloody reckless. Those Scorpion tanks were being phased out because of known issues.

        I know from personal experience…when one finds out that others have been financially compensated when you have fought and over the same issues its sticks in one’s craw.

        Its not fair. Plain and simple.

        • millsy 2.5.1.1
          21 July 2018 at 12:43 pm

          The NZDF is an accredited employer. So it would be hard to get any form of cover out of them.

          • Rosemary McDonald 2.5.1.1.1
            21 July 2018 at 12:51 pm

            The point is that NZDF did make ex gratia payments to other personnel…but refused to do the same for the Nepata brothers.

            Why?

            And why obfuscate when challenged?

        • SaveNZ 2.5.1.2
          21 July 2018 at 12:55 pm

          Although ACC is involved, the workplace should still be a moral workplace, offering at the very least emotional support due to the vocation identity of ‘family’ under armed forces…

          ACC is a great concept, but should not be used to sweep accidents and support both emotional and financial from the work place instead be a standard that also can be added to by the workforce to keep the person’s prospects the same as if they had not been injured and compensation which is no longer part of ACC.

          Worksafe can award payments or prosecution, funny enough not for Pike River (prosecution) and not for these accidents either, maybe government ‘influence’ and neoliberal ideas of ‘opening the floodgates’ are stopping justice.

        • Exkiwiforces 2.5.1.3
          21 July 2018 at 5:38 pm

          I was in the NZ Army (RNZAC) from the mid 93 to mid 98. I wasn’t in QA SQN or whatever it was called back then, or it may have been 1st Armoured Group? The guys were getting ready to deploy on Op Raidan for Bosnia at the time of the accident, also during this time we the NZDF had lost or were about to lose up to 25% of the Defence budget in cuts. Which was effecting operational preparedness across the broad, but it the Corp the hardest as we were quite expensive to run which saw a lot of Army cuts head our way which to cause issues down the track aka the LAV’s and the buying of those death traps the up armoured Pinz’s.

          Before the Defence cuts under there was a plain to give the CVT Scorpions and M113’s etc a Mid Life Update and WMIK kits, Communications upgrades for NZ Scots SQN using cutdown V8’s quite successfully in Recon role within 3 Land Force Group (3LFG). With the Scorpions that meant replacing the V6 Jaguar engine with Perkins engine, fire control systems and new fume extractor for the 76mm. Only the M113’s got the upgrades mainly for Bosnia and everything else got kicked into touch and the Scorpions should’ve been retired, but due to government policies they had to be maintained in use even though we had SFA in spares or money to buy spares. As everything we poured into getting M113’s up to OLOC and getting 1st Battalion up to speed with 2nd/1st back filling the 1st, at the sametime stripping all of 3LFG units of useful equipment to support the deployment.

          The effects of all this happening cause the in my opinion that led to Damien’s accident and what happened with the 2nd/1st pre- deployment training and it’s deployment to East Timor in 2000 in which my mate was KIA along with the th other problems that arose in the 2000’s stems back to the defence cuts in 90’s. When I pose this similar question last yr to Damien at Cambrai last yr and has reply was yes, we also believe that everyone is ass covering as a result of this accident and I know of at least 3-5 other accidents from the 90’s where if an ex-gratis payment was made to Damien the flood gates would open all because we were trying to a job with SFA equipment that more and more dangerous as the yrs went on trying to our mandate tasks as directed by the politicians in Wellington with less and less funding and equipment failing or being run into ground or in case of NZ Scots we were building our own gun mounts, repairing our V8’s in some cases with our money or buying stuff from surplus shops IOT get the job done as stated in our mandated tasks IOT achieve the Government of the Day Defence Polices.

          And you wonder why this lefty is a bit more pro defence than most and very anti “No Mates Party”. When I look back at my photos in NZ Army i offen wonder how on earth I didn’t get myself killed especially when I show rockape mates from work as they think we were bloody mad at what we did!!!!
          Hence the nickname “Mad Kiwi” and my attitude to life.

          • Rosemary McDonald 2.5.1.3.1
            21 July 2018 at 7:58 pm

            Thank you Exkiwiforces. I was hoping you’d pop up and shed some light into the darker corners. So let me get this clear….the Scorpions ran on petrol???
            Not diesel? (Perkins are diesel engines, aren’t they?) Jesus….I’m told the Yanks used to call the Sherman tanks ‘Ronsons’.

            The most significant thing I took away from my very brief encounter with George and his family after Damien’s accident was the deep sense of betrayal. A long family history of service (unto the current generation, despite this crap) and clearly the loyalty was entirely one sided.

            The really ironic thing was that they treated all three brothers like shit. All three of them.

            Re: funding for Defence. This lefty would prefer we needed no armed forces at all, but if we are going to have such a thing…fund it bloody properly or don’t bother.

            Thanks again.

            • Exkiwiforces 2.5.1.3.1.1
              22 July 2018 at 2:08 pm

              Yes the Scorpion and its family of variants were powered by V6 4.2 lt Jag petrol engine with a semi automatic transmission which most countries that are still use Scorpion or any of its variants have now been replaced by the Perkins Diesel engine due to the risk of fire and also it cheaper to run than a petrol engine. There is a school of thought that we should brought more M41 Tanks and upgraded them instead of buying the Scorpions as even today the Danish and Norway Armies still use them as its main gun a long barrel 76mm is still quite useful.

              The Germans called the all the Western Allies tanks in WW2 Tommy Cookers because of their petrol engines, but then again the Germans were engaging the Allies from over 1km where as Sherman had to within 800m to engage a Long Barrel Panzer 4’s and even closer for the Panther, Tiger, King Tiger Tanks and some of the Tank Destroyers as well before we even think about the German Anti Tank Guns.

              Fighting the system for justice is bloody hard and I know that firsthand experience especially when the officer corps saying we well look after you, but in fact its the faceless civilian bureaucracy of MOD, Treasury, DVA, Government and their Advisors as they hold the purse strings.

              There is an unwritten code of conduct/ convention between us and politicians due to the nature of our work and that we don’t have a right to form a union in that the politicians will look after us/ our families as well in peace, on operations and after we leave the services. But since the 90’s we have seen this code of conduct/ convention being kicked into touch with eroding of conditions of service from pay, super, housing/ rations and quarters for those who lived on base, allowances etc to using/ operating ageing equipment well pass their exprier date (rule of thumb for Military Equipment is 30yrs -/+ 10yrs) or new equipment being brought in service that is sub optimal for the at hand aka Project Protector the two OPV’s and Landing Support Ship, Up Armoured Piniz’s etc or the bare minimum of kit being brought aka doing more with less. If any other Government Dept had to put up with this shit there would be hell to pay as I don’t see many workers standing for this sort of shit as they have a union to go and bat for them and more likely to have the public on side as well.

              Hence why I and many other like me have moved or still moving overseas because of this or were sacked by the Government as capabilities were chopped. A lot of these ex Kiwi officers have now reach Flag Rank, Air Rank or Staff Rank in Foreign Armed Forces with ex Kiwi NCO’s holding by senior positions within their of expertise or been commissioned. With me I’m now been pensioned off due to my PTSD and Major Depressive Disorder as a result of my Peacekeeping and Warlike active service.

              The last comment sums up my attitude as well either you fund the NZDF probably or bloody well get rid of it. As my late Grandmother said Rosa Beaurepaire née Balderstone as she was pacifist said this at Nelson Labour LEC or some other Labour meeting many yrs ago “the Forces are a necessary evil we have to have as it’s rather like have house insurance as only a bloody idiot would go without it and not having a Defence Force could be a lot worse unless you like living under a jackboot or don’t like our way of life have fought for be it as workclass struggle against the bosses of this country or fighting overseas against Herr Hitler! The choice is yours and I know what I’ll and my future generations of family would rather have! “ and the debate stop dead on some Defence issues being discussed at the time.

              • Philj …
                25 July 2018 at 11:21 am

                Thanks Ex Kiwiforces, and for your Grannies tale. Your experience is worth reading.

            • Draco T Bastard 2.5.1.3.1.2
              22 July 2018 at 7:33 pm

              The most significant thing I took away from my very brief encounter with George and his family after Damien’s accident was the deep sense of betrayal. A long family history of service (unto the current generation, despite this crap) and clearly the loyalty was entirely one sided.

              That’s my total experience with capitalists. They demand loyalty but they never, ever give it.

              This lefty would prefer we needed no armed forces at all, but if we are going to have such a thing…fund it bloody properly or don’t bother.

              I would much prefer that we didn’t have to have the armed forces but history tells us that we do and so, like you, I think we need to fund it properly and care for our people who are willing to put their lives on the line for our safety.

          • Draco T Bastard 2.5.1.3.2
            22 July 2018 at 7:28 pm

            …along with the th other problems that arose in the 2000’s stems back to the defence cuts in 90’s.

            IMO, If you look back in history the governments that have cut defence spending the most will be National governments. This is despite their rhetoric that the defence forces need to be kept up to maximum capability. Such applies across the board of course – they promise to keep things up but cut funding so that they can give tax cuts to the rich. their usual BS to cover these funding cuts is to do more with less.< Such a philosophy is as bankrupt as it sounds. Throw in the fact that they’ll privatise things so that the rich can get a government guaranteed income for doing nothing at all and things do get really bad.

            And you wonder why this lefty is a bit more pro defence than most and very anti “No Mates Party”.

            Nope, history makes it clear as day. The biggest threat to our armed forces is the National Party.

            • lprent 2.5.1.3.2.1
              22 July 2018 at 8:16 pm

              This is despite their rhetoric that the defence forces need to be kept up to maximum capability. Such applies across the board of course – they promise to keep things up but cut funding so that they can give tax cuts to the rich. their usual BS to cover these funding cuts is to do more with less.

              It has always been the same with the police and the justice system. I don’t think that it was quite as bad last set of terms for National as it was at the end of the 1990s, but they’d certainly been running down the police capabilities. But in 1999, they’d been both sucking money off the police in real terms AND the police hierarchy had been sucking funding away internally on to their computer systems in an attempt to make up for the operational shortfalls down the line.

              The effect was devastating. Around here, there was virtually no investigation of “petty crime” like car theft from our parking garages or people kicking in doors looking for money. Those were treated as being insurance issues – as in you had to have a meaningless proforma complaint to police to get your insurance claim approved. No one would turn up to look for evidence. They’d just wait until they accidently nabbed the offender for something else and let them plead to as many other offenses as they could remember that fitted reports to the police – to provide clearance rates for statistics.

              It was even more horrendous in the less affluent areas where there weren’t any kinds of the alarms and security systems that my apartment block put in communally. Some of my friends and relatives were getting burglarized several times during the year. And it seemed like the poorer they were, the more often it happened.

              Labour and the Alliance got in, changed the policies along with the funding levels, and it cleared up over a couple of years. Police started to turn up at crime scenes with finger printing kits.

              This time I think that they have been damaging the court systems more instead. Some parts of the optimisations worked, like electronic documents. Many parts appear to have simply slowed the court systems down. And the court systems are visibly straining to get through the process.

      • SaveNZ 2.5.2
        21 July 2018 at 12:29 pm

        Yep they need enough to buy a house that is modified so they have home security and what they would have achieved had they been able to work, plus a modified car for the tetraplegic and enough income to lead a stress free life in relation to income.

        • Rosemary McDonald 2.5.2.1
          21 July 2018 at 12:43 pm

          SaveNZ….they are covered by ACC…all those issues are taken care of.

          • SaveNZ 2.5.2.1.1
            21 July 2018 at 1:03 pm

            Does not sound like ACC took care of it and personally feel the army should have done so much more, they were left without emotional or psychological support, moved back in with parents, and another sibling quit the army to look after them and now unemployed???

            Does not look like a rosy outcome with all problems and issues dealt with and solved by ACC, let alone the army.

  3. cleangreen 3
    21 July 2018 at 11:10 am

    While over the pacific pond……….Donald Trump knows that the war-mongers EU/NATO/Washington swamp warhawk cartel want to break up Russia like they conspired to break up the Eastern Euopean & Baltic states like Ukraine/Yugoslavia/ect’ to plunder; — so he wants to stop the impending war about to envelop the planet again.

    We need to save our people from another world war folks it is that simple.

    This is the issue and the ‘elitists’ do not care about us; – and will use anything or person to stop Trump from saving us from war.

    Today the Elitist corporate swamp has finally bought Tumps lawyer Michael Cohen who had taped Trump trying to pay to hush an affair he had 19 yrs ago.

    So as affairs were always ‘indemic’ amongst all presidents going back till the year dot not one president then was placed under such scutity as this one is even when he was playing around before being president.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2238223/FDRs-menagerie-alleged-mistresses-The-American-presidents-long-list-rumored-love-affairs-romanced-upstate-New-York-cottage.html

    Even FDR Rosevelt was involved with a misteress.

    http://listverse.com/2015/02/24/10-scandalous-presidential-affairs-weve-totally-forgotten-about/

    You know now that the Washington swamp will do anything to stop him at any cost. Washington swamp has no morals entirely.

    Trump must win jhis fight agianst this cancer called “the washington swamp”.

  4. marty mars 4
    21 July 2018 at 11:28 am

    Good one Noah

    “It’s no surprise that Russians send spies to the US,” Noah said. “I mean, a spying Russian is as normal as a white person calling the cops on their shadow.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2018/jul/20/stephen-colbert-marina-butina-trump-colbert-meyers-fallon

    T.rump is certainly delivering for the comedians – he’s a goldmine

  5. veutoviper 5
    21 July 2018 at 12:01 pm

    I see the Alt Reich Speakers post is still running strong, but thought it may be better to post here on OM these links to ‘on the ground’ reports from Melbourne of the first of the Southern/Molyneux meetings held in Australia last night.

    As expected there were protests and attempts to block people from getting to the venue; confrontations with police including mounted police and dogs, and with right wing demonstrators, resulting in the blocking of the Hume highway; and infiltrations and protests at the venue itself with one young woman getting up on the stage and others removed from the audience, and several arrests. IMHO this all played straight into the hands of Southern et al in terms of publicity etc and winding people up and creating dissent.

    https://www.news.com.au/technology/online/organisers-introduce-complicated-measures-to-keep-location-of-lauren-southern-talk-secret/news-story/3972f35d2c901af9f679906451dc1a72

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-07-21/protesters-clash-with-police-outside-event-for-lauren-southern/10019554

    https://www.9news.com.au/national/2018/07/20/20/33/lauren-southern-protesters-police-clash-road-closure

    https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/undercover-video-in-melbourne-backfires-for-rightwing-provocateur/news-story/2f9dc7d8c68360dd4f1aadef3d1f1054

    [Google links to reports and videos of Neil Ericson (Right Winger who videos for Southern) being hauled from videoing the protests by police don’t seem to load …. ]

    The most interesting thing (to me anyway) from these reports is that they obviously tried to keep the actual venue secret as much as possible. Ticket holders were directed to meet at a particular railway station (Broadmeadows) with buses then transporting them to the actual venue – the La Mirage Reception and Convention Centre in Somerton.

    I find this interesting because the Australian organiser (Mellowes?) has been saying that they are attempting to find a new venue here in NZ now that Southern and Molyneux have been granted limited work visas; and that they have had no success to date but are hopeful of finding one. Initially I took this at face value but now that they kept the Melbourne venue secret, I suspect that they will not be announcing any venue they secure (or have already) here in NZ – and will attempt the same tactics as used in Melbourne.

    There are a number of other Australian bookings before they are supposed to be coming to NZ in early August, so there is some time to see what happens at these other Australian venues in the meantime. Schedule is; Perth Sun 22 July; Adelaide Tues 24 July; Sydney Sat, 28 July; Brisbane Sun 29 July.

    Auckland is still showing on the Axiomatic events website as Auckland, Friday 3 August.

    UPDATE – Erikson video now working – https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/national/raw-neil-erikson-hauled-from-melbourne-protest/video/9f201ccb7f6db975ede7c1067980ca8a

    • Dennis Frank 5.1
      21 July 2018 at 6:05 pm

      So no reports of any prosecutions? Aren’t they saying anything sufficiently hateful? Is it really just a cry-wolf story? Seems like total focus on venues & hoo-ha. You see zero evidence of law-breaking but don’t say so? I’m starting to get the impression this was all just a leftist beat-up. Maybe they’ll come & do their spiel here & everyone will say how remarkably inoffensive it all was, and what nice tourists they seem to be…

      • Anne 5.1.1
        21 July 2018 at 7:06 pm

        Pull you head in over this matter Dennis Frank. They are offensive people who say very offensive things. They play to the lowest common denominator and deliberately provoke people into taking action against them. They are, in short, arse-holes. It may not be a crime in itself to be an arse-hole but since we have plenty of our own, lets not encourage the imported variety to come here and stir up more trouble.

        If you want to join them go ahead. That is your prerogative. But spare us the whining about ‘lack of prosecutions etc.” because they haven’t even arrived here yet and anyway, that is not the bone of contention.

        • Dennis Frank 5.1.1.1
          22 July 2018 at 12:37 am

          Don’t be silly, Anne. I didn’t encourage them and I’m as likely to join them as you are. Just mentioning that the news from Oz seems to indicate less substance to the controversy. If they aren’t actually doing anything wrong, then your personal antipathy to them has no relevance to our public policy. The lack of evidence is now indicating that perception of hate speech is a minority view rather than a basis for corrective action by the state.

        • veutoviper 5.1.1.2
          22 July 2018 at 11:53 am

          Thanks Anne. As I thought I had made clear in my first para in my comment, I was primarily just providing links to media reports on Southern and Molyneux’s first event in Australia (in other words what was happening in the real world) and leaving the high brow philosophical pros and cons discussions for the Alt Reich post and the earlier related ones.

          Personally I decided to just ignore Dennis Frank’s snide cynical reply as it was typical of his comments over the years both here on TS and on other blogs such as Pundit and TDB. I tend to just pass over his comments because of his negativity and ‘I know best’ attitude. As for people who use the expression “Don’t be silly, (name)” – usually males to females in my experience … LOL.

          • Anne 5.1.1.2.1
            22 July 2018 at 7:12 pm

            As for people who use the expression “Don’t be silly, (name)” – usually males to females in my experience … LOL.

            Indeed.

  6. joe90 6
    21 July 2018 at 12:10 pm

    Oh dear.

    (adult themes NSFW or sensitive souls)

    #Manafortleaks

    • arkie 6.1
      21 July 2018 at 12:25 pm

      The Freuds may have been on to something.

      in projection, thoughts, motivations, desires, and feelings that cannot be accepted as one’s own are dealt with by being placed in the outside world and attributed to someone else.

    • marty mars 6.2
      21 July 2018 at 12:46 pm

      ffs does this shit these people do to other people ever end???

  7. veutoviper 7
    21 July 2018 at 12:21 pm

    Whale Watching Report (and similar)

    While finding the links for my comment at 5 above, I came across the following link

    https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/national/humpback-whales-dugong-and-dolphins-spotted-off-north-queensland-coast/news-story/cbfa67b898f91a8e6ec559051b40e7a0

    Seems that whales in our harbours – first Matariki in Wellington harbour and then Blue whales in Auckland – have now been joined by humpback whales etc close in off the coast of Queensland.

    Link to story re Blue Whales in Auckland – https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12091660

    h/t to Clarke Gayford Twitter for that link from this tweet – https://twitter.com/NZClarke/status/1019733681341005824

    Gayford also tweeted this before 8am this morning – superb Viceland video but really put me off breakfast!
    https://twitter.com/NZClarke/status/1020395470328193025

    (He has been tweeting a bit again the last few days, but others relate to different subjects – eg the pros and cons of domed vs single/double zipper baby onsies at 4am.) LOL

  8. patricia bremner 8
    21 July 2018 at 12:45 pm

    I see Duncan Garner has a piece in Stuff about being a solo parent for the last 6 months. Maybe that explains his understanding of Phil Twyford flying with his wife and three young ones.
    Duncan appears to have gained some humility and humanity.
    His comment about “some mates weren’t able to cope, others turned up with a meal and time to chat” rang a bell. The first lot obviously were not real mates. A hard way to find out, but some folk can’t be second for any reason.

  9. greywarshark 9
    21 July 2018 at 12:49 pm

    China’s doing it! Birds do it, bees do it, even educated fleas do it.
    Oh why, oh why can’t we. Or have I missed the news that we have started – not just still talking about it?

    • Graeme 9.1
      21 July 2018 at 3:23 pm

      Once we had NZFS which led to Kaiangaroa and other plantation schemes. Which were sadly lost to ideology. Saihanba seems very similar to Kaiangaroa in style, intent and effects.

      Government policy to rebuild this capability.

      Lets get on with it.

  10. marty mars 10
    21 July 2018 at 12:59 pm

    Andrew Little needs to listen more imo – he’s got some idea that he know some stuff – very little little.

    https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/te-manu-korihi/362303/little-s-hapu-remarks-condescending-ngapuhi-lawyer

    • SaveNZ 10.1
      21 July 2018 at 1:09 pm

      yep, need to avoid…

      “Ms Tuwhare said the hapu had little faith in the idea of a centralised iwi governance body that would distribute largesse to the hapū.

      “We already have one of those in the Ngāpuhi rūnanga, and it has not only failed to capitalise on its ($60m) Fisheries settlement – it returns only 11 percent of its annual profits to the people it’s supposed to be helping so about 90 percent goes on its internal costs. That’s a very poor performance compared with other iwi.”

      Moana Tuwhare said a number of hapū in the north were making a better fist of running their affairs than the rūnanga was, and were well-equipped to deal with a settlement.

      The rūnanga was now spending $200,000 on lawyers, in an effort to set up a post-governance entity, without reference to the hapū, she said.”

  11. Stuart Munro 11
    21 July 2018 at 2:16 pm

    Does anyone remember the Selwyn River? It seems to be gone now. When will anything be done to bring it back?

    Does anyone remember the Golden Bay scallops? They seem to have been decimated. Where is the plan to restore them? When does it start?

    I’m sure there are many similar places, where bad policy decisions have destroyed public environmental assets. So when can we expect movement to recover them?

    Or are they to be viewed as part of the attrition that goes with a civil service that has become captive to neoliberal rather than democratic norms? Let us have some sunlight on the dark recesses of failed policies made in dark rooms by corrupt far right ideologues under the Gnats.

  12. marty mars 12
    21 July 2018 at 2:56 pm

    Something to generate a smile on a rainy day before I head to work.

    a pun put me onto this classic – old one and funny.
    https://youtu.be/OCbvCRkl_4U

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Candles

  13. switchedoncat 13
    21 July 2018 at 5:48 pm

    There was once a time that the people of the west coast were treated badly

    The miners of the area stood tall and started a revolution. That revolution was called
    THE LABOUR PARTY.

    These people had character and stood for what was in the interests of the people. The middle class had a voice

    Irony has taken its place along with the shallow souls who care only about their own selfish desires to keep their cushy seats of position.

    The founders of a once great party are rolling in their graves in disgust at their legacies position.

    National and Labour are now the same wolf in a different sheeps clothing. Shamefull cowards with no ethical or moral compass

    See you at the bridge

    • Ad 13.1
      21 July 2018 at 9:11 pm

      Are you commenting about the multiple plans launched by the Labour-led government this week to redevelop and revive Westport and Greymouth perhaps? Support the rail line expansion across the coast per chance? Support the rebuild of Westport town centre? Maybe?

      Or the launch this week of the new major tourism walk by DoC close the the Puankaike Rocks perchance?

      If west coast coalminers want to keep digging coal, they should do what the rest of them do and head to Australia. We still haven’t been able to extract the bodies out of the last one, but hey go for it.

      Use some kind of reference if you really want to comment on this government.

      • switchedoncat 13.1.1
        21 July 2018 at 10:42 pm

        Those issues are not relative to the average person on the coast. Do you really think that the punakaiki walk will have any effect or bearing on the average persons life on the west coast. really?? No one cares , so what some tourist will buy another drink or something at the shop up the road.

        One closed gold mine of recent adds up to far more than all that crap you just listed. Rail line !! whippy!!

        Rebuild the Westport centre, Yay the hungry kids can look at the shiny new statue.

        Its not just coal. Its the right to have access to our minerals. We are not the rest of the country so stop treating us like we are.

        Obviously you cant see it because you dont live it.

        • Ad 13.1.1.1
          22 July 2018 at 11:35 am

          If the average person on the west coast isn’t engaging with tourism they really need to find somewhere else to live. Yes that includes you.

          Your reaction is typical of the quarry-enclave mentality that has poisoned and damaged many areas of this country. Go and check out Waihi now.

          It is also typical that someone who comments with no links whatsoever and just has a slag at the government for no purpose, is also someone who cannot for the life of them engage with actual multiple concrete initiatives that are occurring now.

          Instead all they want to do is go back to mining coal.

          You are one of the ignorant fools who think that the world never changes, and as a result the west coast continues to shrink in every way possible.

  14. marty mars 14
    21 July 2018 at 6:24 pm

    Yeah not so surprising – perhaps this is why people should only be allowed to earn so much money – they get distorted. I’d close them down.

    “Australia’s richest person, mining magnate Gina Rinehart, has been revealed as a key funder of the rightwing thinktank the Institute of Public Affairs – a consistent promoter of climate science scepticism.

    Rinehart’s company, Hancock Prospecting, donated $2.3m to the IPA in 2016 and $2.2m in 2017, according to disclosures made to the New South Wales supreme court.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/jul/21/gina-rinehart-company-revealed-as-45m-donor-to-climate-sceptic-thinktank

  15. Kaya3 15
    21 July 2018 at 8:18 pm

    Anyone picking this up? Assange due to be arrested? Sorry if someone has already posted, I didn’t read right through. Hard day and tired.

    So what is the plan if he is handed over? Do we have a left in NZ and will it respond? We know the Labour Party won’t. Too shit scared to offend the five eyes people.

  16. Ad 16
    21 July 2018 at 8:38 pm

    This evening I found a satisfying, lazy way to support small business in Lebanon.

    It’s a Shiraz called “Les Brechtes”, from Chateau Kefraya – in the Bekaa Valley.

    If you want some of this lovely Shiraz mix, it’s in a little shop near the corner of Auckland’s Ponsonby and Great North Roads.

  17. joe90 17
    21 July 2018 at 11:04 pm

    heh

    Wow, ICE is … really desperate for recruits. #abolishICE pic.twitter.com/wOxn4pQX0E— The Break with Michelle Wolf (@thebreaknetflix) July 20, 2018

    https://twitter.com/thebreaknetflix/status/1020376398110765056

  18. Pat 18
    22 July 2018 at 4:49 am

    “Whether he wins in 2020 or not, we will not have seen the last of Trump’s type as long as the system remains unreconstructed. If the future ordains more economic dislocation and alienation – which automation and AI could so easily bring – the danger is that history looks back on Trump not as a nasty aberration, but as the one who opened the door for the real fascists to walk through.”

    https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/12997/meaning-trump

    Although it makes little difference to the risk, my inclination is that the driver is more likely to be CC as opposed to AI or automation.

  19. eco maori 19
    22 July 2018 at 9:49 am

    Good morning Q & A Corin with our waste the people who make this waste should be charged as well as the consumer If we make it so that its in the best interest for manufactures to reduce the waste I.E charge them for this waste and send the money to the recycles .Business switched from recycling glass bottles because it is cheaper for them to use plastics than glass with a little tweek this could change so it is cheaper to use glass bottles glass can be recycled many times.
    Family violence = Waipiro in % 80 = business selling Waipoiro road deaths = Waipiro full jails = Waipiro all the bad stats flow out of OUR abuse of the use of this poison why is it so hard for these problems to be fixed business political lobbie groups limit the access te mokopunas have to this poision and the stats will change for the better .
    My mokopunas are going to look back at us and laugh they could not do not want to fix waipoiro abuse a problem that causes so much harm to our society.
    Ka kite ano P.S hate speech is not acceptable enough said

  20. eco maori 20
    22 July 2018 at 10:18 am

    Marae I did not know Matua Black I put his picture on one of my post he looks like a Honorable man who united maori he gave them mana with the Gate Pa celebrations.
    Now if that story had the substance that the media gave it and the way his ex put this story out there to the Papatuanuku surely more than one{ contracted lair ]would come forward . I trust this system as far as I can —— ana to kai te tangata you don’t no how corrupt this system is . In My EYEs this is a attack on Maori culture Mana .
    The Maori will still be strong one has to have balance like the jin yang so I still back Maori Party. P.S I will put some links up to back my views on Matua Black .The tane can not even defend his mana

  21. eco maori 21
    22 July 2018 at 11:08 am


    I know that my Tipuna sided with the Government this was to protect Ngati Porou mana whenua and tangata after the musket raids of other hapu on us .
    The big picture is we were played and we are still being fooled by some Pakeha ana to kai . The tangata delivering Muta Blacks story that’s a smear in my eyes on Maori Mana are being played fooled to Ka kite ano

    P.S you see tangata some Pakeha don;t want the good Kiwi people to know that the killed lied cheated Maori all out of greed for our whenua they just want us to go away hell NO

  22. eco maori 22
    22 July 2018 at 12:05 pm

    The problem I have with this DNA grab by this DNA company is that it is so easy for evil people to get a sample of DNA and then plant it on or in a crime orchestrated seen and wala the evil person has locked up a innocent person . I say this tool is going to be used to control Te Tangata just like these cameras going up all around Aotearoa and Papatuanuku a tool for the 00.1 % to keep us as there slaves .
    Ka kite ano

  23. Eco Maori 23
    22 July 2018 at 12:21 pm

    Those Tribal Hulk links were not what I thought they were I thought they were links to the New Zealand wars of 1840 to 1900 ECO MAORI does not Tau toko GANGS full stop. Ka kite ano

  24. Eco Maori 24
    22 July 2018 at 12:40 pm

    I had to use a different device to correct my mistaken links they were already trying to block me from the standard website Ka kite ano

  25. Eco Maori 25
    22 July 2018 at 12:49 pm

    So much for free speech a it’s free until one is a broke Maori educating te tangata about the system we live have imposed on KIWIs Ka kite ano they are trying to blocking my post lucky I have other strategies to get my words out to You all Ka kite ano

  26. eco maori 26
    22 July 2018 at 1:30 pm

    Some music Eco Maori is listening to at the minute

  27. Eco Maori 27
    22 July 2018 at 1:39 pm

    Some music ECO MAORI is listening to at the minute Ka kite ano

    YouTube

    Bob Marley – Redemption Song (from the legend album, with lyrics)
    XxWolfqueenxX21,040,860 views

    Published on 8 Sep 2009
    Couldnt find this version on youtube so thought I’d upload it as it’s my all time favourite Bob Marley song….no copyright infringement intended, this is just a video i put together I own nothing on the video nor do I claim to own anything…..

  29. eco maori 29
    22 July 2018 at 1:59 pm

    Some music Eco Maori is listening to at the minute

  30. eco maori 30
    22 July 2018 at 3:28 pm

    Mana Wahine The Black Ferns Rugby sevens team have won back to back Pupatuanuku Cup Rugby sevens in San francisco Ka pai ka kite ano

  31. Eco Maori 31
    22 July 2018 at 6:08 pm

    Good evening Newshub Hope I did not break to many glass bubbles this morning. I don’t make my statements lightly on Mata Black one has to see things through my eyes see how many Maori proffets that have had there Mana destroyed by the – – – – – there you go the Rotorua Council is not trying to help it homeless tangata I bet if it was there whano on the street they would bend the the rules like they are for their Dairy farmer m8 Ka kite ano

  32. eco maori 32
    22 July 2018 at 7:52 pm

    A lot of te tangata will know what this video means to Eco Maori

The server will be getting hardware changes this evening starting at 10pm NZDT.
The site will be off line for some hours.