Open mike 21/08/2023

68 comments on “Open mike 21/08/2023 ”

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1. newsense 1

   21 August 2023 at 6:28 am

   Transferred this over from the other thread as this has opened:

   I keep mentioning Luxon’s religion here as a reason he’s disliked. I think it’s because religion is seen as an important choice and almost a descriptor of personality. Catholics Bill and Jim were farmers, family men and careful with the finances. Key didn’t believe in a God, and ditto Auntie Helen, probably for quite different reasons. Jacinda had chosen not to continue in the Mormon church her parents were in. Actually don’t know about Chippy- guess we’ll find out.

   These were all statements of their beliefs and background that explained a little of how they were brought up, their moral education and how they behaved in public life.

   David Farrier has spent a lot of time on evangelical mega-churches of late. I found myself having a revulsion at going to a carols event to find that rather than thousands of voices joined together in song, it was some immaculately beautiful people using amplification to drown out the rest. It wasn’t what my parents or grandparents’ communities did.

   Luxon would make our first evangelical leader. But there’s really a feeling he’s hiding his religion from view. His only statement has been that he’s stopped going to the church.

   Here’s what David Farrier thinks:

   There’s National leader Christopher Luxon, a man previously tied to pentecostal Auckland church the Upper Room — a man who claims his religious beliefs don’t colour his politics. I call bullshit on that. When your ethics and morals exist to guarantee you a spot in Heaven and the afterlife — those ethics and morals play out in allaspects of your life. Including your politics. Your soul depends on it.

   While abuse of power in religions is not solely a mega church deal, it’s the most recent and the least regulated. And while our Anglicans, Catholics and Methodists were present at the signing of the Treaty, these evangelical groupings are something new entirely. We don’t know how we expect them to behave. But the most recent examples are somewhat shifty.

   And I think this is an identity problem. Luxon instead of explaining his faith, is seen as hiding something. He struggles at times speaking off the cuff, unusually for our best leaders of recent times. He’s walked back a fair few statements, as if he’s trying to send out different messages to different audiences. It leads to confusion about who or what he is and it leads further to the idea of not quite having lived a similar enough life regular kiwis to understand what’s going on with them. Middle management in Canada is different to a London OE. One’s a familiar story from Mansfield to Key and Ardern. The other’s not so much.
   • Blazer 1.1

     21 August 2023 at 9:32 am

     Maybe Luxon could team up with the Vision NZ Party….it could be a match…made in…heaven.
     • In Vino 1.1.1

       21 August 2023 at 9:54 am

       Luxon was downright duplicitous when he made himself sound not-too-religious when he said he had not been to a church for a long time.

       His 'Upper Room' group does not meet in a church, but in halls or gyms or other such spaces. Small wonder he had not been to 'church' for a long time.

       This is the kind of half-truth which I believe constitutes a lie.
       • Blazer 1.1.1.1

         21 August 2023 at 10:14 am

         I recall him saying he stopped going to church because too many people would hit him up for free or reduced air fares.

         What kind of people does he hang out with?Moochers,bottom feeders!!
         • bwaghorn 1.1.1.1.1

           21 August 2023 at 11:50 am

           Bottom feeding rich people
   • Ad 1.2

     21 August 2023 at 10:54 am

     Why does he have to explain his faith to you or anyone?

     No one asks Chippie about his lack of faith, or indeed asks whether Chippie has any values at all.
     • Shanreagh 1.2.1

       21 August 2023 at 11:54 am

       He doesn't have to explain but we can draw conclusions from exploring the type of beliefs that the pentecostal churches hold.

       Some of the beliefs, if held slavishly, can affect concepts that perhaps have made NZ what it is eg Liberals in the 1890s and the breaking up of the great estates, votes for women, and Mickey Savage etc and the formation of the welfare state, not to mention the huge fights many of us were involved in to allow women to access abortion services.

       Where it is possible that a religious belief may go against these I think we are justified in rasing a few questions.
       • Ad 1.2.1.1

         22 August 2023 at 9:18 am

         Christianity is the primary source of the values of our legal system and most of our public institutions we have, because that's what structured us for the first century.

         It's more noticeable when parties deviate well outside the existing value system that easily sets them apart. Like ACT for example.

         There is currently very, very little ideological difference between Labour and National under their current leaders. There used to be real difference.

         The reflex leftie suspicion of religion simply alienates vast sectors of the population from every entertaining coming to their side. Why alienate people of conscience when you are losing?
         • SPC 1.2.1.1.1

           22 August 2023 at 9:37 am

           That those of religion identify themselves, as the ones with conscience, is not a virtue.

           They are the same people who believe that those outside their faith go to hell.

           That is not of God, that is of man.

           First century is, judge not lest you be judged. The church of man was built at an imperial capital.
         • Shanreagh 1.2.1.1.2

           22 August 2023 at 11:33 am

           It is not so much that a person has a religion. It is the particular type of religion, Pentecostal with the prosperity focus.

           It is also that where ever it came from it is not christian-like or caring or thoughtful to label a fellow human being as a 'bottom -feeder' because of their economic status.

           I am not leftie reflex anti religion but I do think people can see, or if not be educated in what hypocrisy looks like when it is personified.

           Religions, if they are to be taken seriously in providing a force for good, set a high benchmark in personal behaviour. I much prefer to see the results of quiet actions in the community rather than religion being touted as good-doing merely because a person claims to be a christian.
     • Patricia Bremner 1.2.2

       21 August 2023 at 12:21 pm

       What does that crack mean Ad?

       Spit out your meaning with an explanation, not a one line put down.

       The PM has said he stands for family and community values, and has put up to back that, with Policy, costed policy.

       What exactly does Christopher Luxon stand for?

       Tax relief for the rich? Less Bureaucracy and no "Bottom Feeders"?

       His beliefs are character shaping, and need to be known. imo.

       You yourself, are not above using catholic imagery when it suits you.

       We are all shaped by our "beliefs" or "faith".

       New Zealand does not need a "Big Daddy", we need a leader who will pull communities together with common agreed goals.

       There are 85 families with $311 Billion of New Zealand's wealth. He sees them as his peers, us not so much, or he would have walked that 200m instead of using a mercedes. imho.
       • Ad 1.2.2.1

         22 August 2023 at 9:12 am

         Obviously he stands for National Party policy.

         Can anyone tell what Hipkins stands for? He will let ministers work on major policies for years, then burn them. He will invent new policies with weeks to go in a government.

         I have no reason to trust Luxon but I have every reason not to trust Hipkins.
         • newsense 1.2.2.1.1

           23 August 2023 at 8:55 am

           So you’re here whatabouting genuine and important questions about the character of our potential PM?

           As you’ve said Hipkins stands for no bad headlines, something that worked for him initially, but is less and less the case. He’s not made any confusing statements about his faith.

           And you have to wonder why you’d want to deflect these questions?

           Ardern had already signaled a reprioritisation and it being no secret Hipkins was more on the right of the party than her was chosen as leader to implement a new direction to the election.

           There are several questions is

           1) we’ve never had a leader of this faith before. Australia, with its Murdoch empire, is somewhat closer to the US, but their leader of the same faith engaged a lot with the current Republican Party culture wars.

           What are the core tenets that the man who wants to lead us believes in? If for example he had to react to events such as Jacinda did, how would he perform? Especially, again, against the backdrop of somethings said by ex-PM Morrison while in office.

           2) You feel he’s a less dogmatic person that Morrison, which leads us to the next question.

           If he is flexible in the core beliefs of his professed religion, which pertain to the salvation of his eternal soul, what does that say about his commitment to anything?

           As I pointed out before, we’ve had atheists and Catholics recently in charge and we’ve been clear about who they are. Their core personal beliefs weren’t in doubt. Luxon is something new, professing to be more of the same.
           • roblogic 1.2.2.1.1.1

             23 August 2023 at 9:31 am

             This whole narrative – judging someone on the basis of their religion – feels like a rhetorical fallacy at best, or an exercise in prejudice at worst.

             Faith traditions are an important part of identity and culture – just as valid as other identity markers like ethnicity, gender, or sexual orientation.

             IMO Luxon's faith appears nominal and his actual religion is demonstrated by his actions: a faithful servant of Capitalism.

             Here's an interesting juxtaposition that reminds us how far western culture has strayed from its Christian roots, hence many of the misunderstandings and superficial perceptions of this ancient faith as some kind of cult for the weak minded or scoundrels.
     • AB 1.2.3

       21 August 2023 at 1:04 pm

       I tend to agree with Ad. No one has to explain their faith. And most likely, if they can explain it, then it's not faith but useless dogma. That's not to say we shouldn't judge Luxon on his choice of religion – it might have explanatory power when it comes to the origins of his politics. But I dont see it as necessary – there is enough in his political opinions alone to dismiss him from being someone we should hand power to.
       • Sanctuary 1.2.3.1

         22 August 2023 at 9:22 am

         Faith is a personal matter, until it becomes a matter of influencing public policy. If there is a suspicion that National's caucus is in the thrall of an Evangelical plurality determined to impose a US style fundamentalist culture war on our realtively moderate civil society then Luxon's faith – and that of the rest of the Taliban faction in National – becomes a matter of public interest.
     • newsense 1.2.4

       21 August 2023 at 1:07 pm

       He doesn’t.

       But it makes him seem like someone who has no centre. No core.

       Other politicians have dealt with it with one line. He seems to play hookey kookey with his faith or lack of it , which is a defining personal quality. As he has played with other issues.

       We had recently across the ditch the duplicitous Scott Morrison who was secretly minister for a whole lot of damn things.

       I mean as I quoted from David Farrier above if you believe you’ll lose your eternal soul it’s fairly important.

       I’m sure in time Hipkins will have to answer a question and HE WILL KNOW THE ANSWER. It won’t be a big deal. As it has been for other PMs. English was Catholic, but didn’t talk about his faith. But Catholicism is a fairly well known faith.

       For example, Scott Morrison tried to get his pastor an audience at the White House.

       It’s more Luxon’s hookey kookey as I said above and a penchant for walking back positions that has made him a confusing figure.

       If you have a central set of moral teachings that inform your outlook these are not something you stop having and if a particular view of the world, including nation’s roles and the end of times are included, that is something that is something voters have a right to know.

       If something is important you can identify as yes, I’m this or not. If you have a core truth it’s not a difficult question. If you are obfuscating about your core truth, well that’s odd.
     • Rosielee 1.2.5

       21 August 2023 at 2:02 pm

       Because he's using his faith as virtue signalling.
       • Ad 1.2.5.1

         22 August 2023 at 9:09 am

         What does that even mean?
   • SPC 1.3

     21 August 2023 at 11:19 am

     Position of JFK

     https://www.history.com/news/jfk-catholic-president

     Full speech

     https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=16920600

     The one thing JFK did not cover was those of end time judgment faith – those who believe that there will come an intervention in world affairs, to judge those of the world not raptured to safety, and then a 1000 year rule on earth by an "agent of God".

     The growth of this faith in the USA has had an adverse impact on their civic society unity and led to culture wars. A secular society consisting of people of faith, or a hegemon (christian dominionism) awaiting (or impatiently enacting) end time judgment of fellow citizens.

     Pentecostals are part of the prosperity religion branch of Christianity – disparage the social gospel as socialism. Scott Morrison demonstrated a disregard for global warming concern, unsurprising given his faith was based on awaiting God to judge the many and then end human dominion on earth.

     Anyone attracted to this brand of Christianity is full of entitlement to be wealthy and to disdain others not so fortunate, and worse.
     • Shanreagh 1.3.1

       21 August 2023 at 11:47 am

       Pentecostals are part of the prosperity religion branch of Christianity – disparage the social gospel as socialism.

       Yes SPC this is the reason for my innate suspicion of Luxon, it stems from his religion. While he may not be attending the trappings of the religion as in the services I believe that the reach/teachings of the church will have influenced him. I just cannot conceive of any situation where it would be acceptable to call a fellow human a 'bottom feeder'. I believe it shows how far away he is from the concept of 'there but for the grace of God go I'.

       Basically it shows how ignorant he is of the struggles of others – it is not all pulling up by the bootstraps stuff, others may not have the opportunities or if they do may not be able to to take advantage of them.

       Prosperity churches like this and sayings like 'bottom feeders' are a threat to society in my view. No amount of virtue/church going can make up for disparaging remarks about others.

       I have linked to this Wiki article on Prosperity churches before

       https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology
   • Ngungukai 1.4

     23 August 2023 at 7:48 pm

     Spooky.
2. Ad 2

   21 August 2023 at 6:52 am

   No good reason for Biden to wait a week to travel to Hawaii. Also 4 days to even comment.

   His comms team are so crap.

   He better come withobey, a rebuild plan, and aplan for a federal agency to oversee disaster relief which they don't appear to have.

   Let's see how Southern California holds up against the new hurricane.
   • Peter 2.1

     21 August 2023 at 9:10 am

     Maybe Biden was involved in serious stuff, the stuff which many are determinedly making the most important stuff in the US in years – Hunter Biden.

     Seriously though, the Biden response is not typical. But there are perspectives.

     “More than 120 hours passed between when President Biden first spoke publicly about the devastating Maui fires on Aug. 10 and his next substantive remarks about the tragedy the following week.

     During that five-day stretch of presidential reticence — which Biden spent in part on vacation in Delaware as his son faced fresh legal jeopardy — the full scope of the crisis in Hawaii came into clearer view. The embers of the deadliest wildfires in modern American history left a seaside town completely scorched and caused thousands of grief-stricken survivors to question the competence and capability of the government.

     Behind the scenes, aides say, Biden was leading a robust, by-the-book federal response — speaking daily with state officials in Hawaii, ordering federal responders to provide all assistance necessary and receiving detailed briefings as the crisis unfolded.

     … White House officials counter that the president has been engaged from the outset of the emergency, pointing to the statement he released on Aug. 9 — not long after the fast-moving fires began raging on Maui — and his remarks offering condolences and support the following day. Even when Biden was not publicly active, aides said, he was participating in more than two dozen private briefings and calls over 10 days to stay on top of the situation.”

     https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/08/20/biden-hawaii-wildfires/?utm_campaign=wp_post_most&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_most

     The expectations of leadership seem to be different from different people. Whatever the reasons, Biden did not seem to grasp the opportunity.
   • Visubversa 2.2

     21 August 2023 at 9:20 am

     They were asking tourists to stay away. You don't want a bunch of "Pollies" getting in the way of the rescue and recovery effort in the first few days. All the energy and resources need to go towards the immediate tasks of rescue, and providing for the needs of survivors.
     • Ad 2.2.1

       21 August 2023 at 10:52 am

       The President of the USA isn't a tourist. They need to get into recovery and rebuild while the remainder of body identification and other tasks are still underway. He ought to be bringing Federal assistance in the forms of teams, funding, and planning.

       This is the version of the world we are in now: there's nothing but multiplying disasters, and forms of government need to actively work together. Not like any of this is going to get better.
       • Visubversa 2.2.1.1

         21 August 2023 at 11:14 am

         You are right – he is not a tourist – and the amount of resources it takes to manage a Presidential visit is a vast multiplication on that of any tourist. And he does not have to pack that Federal assistance in Airforce 1 – he just has to sign the papers, which he is doing.
         • Ad 2.2.1.1.1

           21 August 2023 at 11:37 am

           You know full well leadership is more than signing papers. That's the same scenario Bush went through after delaying any visit to New Orleans.
       • Peter 2.2.1.2

         21 August 2023 at 12:01 pm

         'He ought to be' bringing Federal assistance in the forms of teams, funding, and planning. Which he undoubtedly is. Not poncing around grandstanding.

         My comment about not seeming to 'grasp the opportunity' was about Biden not turning it into a sideshow. Everything's turned into politics yet that hasn't happened in this situation.

         Well, sort of. The appalling, batshit crazy Marjorie Taylor Greene: "Fires in Hawaii, Fires in Arizona, Fires in Canada, Fires in Cali. All Democrat run states. Do you think they are setting the fires themselves?"
         • Ad 2.2.1.2.1

           21 August 2023 at 12:58 pm

           MTG is such an unrestrained Republican id.
3. SPC 3

   21 August 2023 at 12:04 pm

   Anyone else not sure what to make of this – education statement of intent?

   https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2023/08/government-reveals-new-requirements-for-teaching-core-subjects.html

   It's sounds bi-partisan (like time spent teaching financial literacy in schools when out of the other side of the mouth there is more time focused on the three r's and maybe some science), even apple pie like.

   The good – the focus on child based learning progress reports to parents, rather than teaching to national standards testing. The balance here being a statement of uniform subject content to be taught in all schools …. and

   … taught in the same way by teachers – consistency of teaching methodology. Given the changes made over decades to this point that is going to involve adjustment for some.

   There is acknowledgment that not all students are the same and learn differently, and thus this is not about how they learn and are taught.

   The problem is that not everyone agrees on the right way to teach reading and maths, and some existing teachers might refuse to change to what they regard to a no better, or even inferior standard – we may have another mandates problem. It will be interesting to see how other parties respond.
   • SPC 3.1

     21 August 2023 at 12:21 pm

     National's Erica Stanford says the Labour Government 'lifted our policy and re-announced it'

     https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300953944/nz-election-2023-live-labour-announces-compulsory-teaching-requirements-for-maths-reading-and-writing

     National's education spokesperson, Erica Stanford claims the Labour Government is "panicking" by outlining a plan to introduce mandatory teaching requirements for maths, reading and writing from next year – despite Prime Minister Chris Hipkins railing against the notion of telling teachers how to teach … also known as the common practice model.

     It means children are taught the same things at the same time across the country, and each child would have to hit "progress steps" or milestones. "These are areas that we will be making mandatory within the teaching area and ensuring our young people are progressing," Tinetti said.

     However Stanford said the Government would be rolling out mandatory teaching of a poorly-designed curriculum. …Making the common practice model – expected to be released next term and to be rolled out in schools from next year – compulsory was "a complete turnaround" she added.

     She had key questions about what exactly was going to be made compulsory, and how pupils would be assessed.

     National in March outlined its policy to re-write the curriculum so it says what must be taught each year in reading, writing, maths and science to every year group in primary and intermediate schools, and set out twice-yearly testing in reading, writing and maths from Year 3 to Year 8, with clear reporting to parents. It also says schools must teach an hour of reading, an hour of writing and an hour of maths, on average, every day and ensure teachers and teacher trainees spend more time learning how to teach the basics.

     "They have lifted our policy and re-announced it."

     Labour had previously described the policy as "a fail" and, in the House, Hipkins has said the Government would get into "difficult territory" if it starts to dictate to teachers how they should teach.

     Closing the gaps, in policy.
     • gsays 3.1.1

       21 August 2023 at 4:37 pm

       Whether we like it or not, they are the two closest aligned parties in parliament.
4. alwyn 4

   21 August 2023 at 12:33 pm

   I have never been a Republican pushing for a New Zealand born resident Head of State. The current system has always seemed easy, and cheap, and without the hassles of choosing who the HoS should be

   Is Chippie planning to provide us with our own hereditary Head of State? What on earth is he doing looking at giving the Maori King a constitutional role in New Zealand?

   Is he really so desperate that he will do anything at the behest of his Maori caucus, and of the TPM leadership?

   "When asked about Waititi’s call, Prime Minister Chris Hipkins said he was seeking advice on whether a formal or constitutional role for Kīngi Tuheitia could be accommodated by the government."

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/pou-tiaki/300954441/te-pti-mori-calls-for-diplomatic-status-for-mori-king?cx_testId=3&cx_testVariant=cx_1&cx_artPos=2#cxrecs_s
   • Ad 4.1

     21 August 2023 at 12:59 pm

     Needed to just kick the can down the road. Dumb.
     • AB 4.1.1

       21 August 2023 at 2:01 pm

       "whether a formal or constitutional role … could be accommodated by the government"

       That looks like a pretty solid can kicking to me.
   • SPC 4.2

     21 August 2023 at 1:13 pm

     If Waititi was asking for "Kīngi Tuheitia" to be head of state of Aotearoa New Zealand, he would have said so.

     He is referencing standing in the diplomatic realm – afforded other royalty, such as King Charles in the UK.

     The term "keys to the country" infers a formal recognition of status.

     Our GG acts on behalf of the Crown state (which we currently associate with a foreign born person) in relation to foreign diplomats, as well as a local domestic role (swearing in of Ministers, legislation).

     So constitutionally it is difficult, some sort of Maori Ambassador to courts type status?
     • alwyn 4.2.1

       21 August 2023 at 2:54 pm

       I think he is envisaging a great deal more than that. King Charles is exempt from a great many laws and obligations in Britain, and Waiiti is asking for the same right, in New Zealand, for the Maori King.

       No obligation to pay taxes for example. No need to obey any speed limits. In fact he would be exempt from all Criminal and Civil proceedings.

       https://www.express.co.uk/news/royal/1675404/king-charles-III-exemption-british-laws-sovereign-immunity-royal-family

       Don't try and persuade us that these don't apply because you are suggesting he hadn't said that Kingi Tuheitia should be Head of State. He said

       "Waititi said he wanted the Māori King to receive the “keys to the country” and to enjoy the same diplomatic rights that King Charles has as a sovereign in the UK".

       Well that right includes being exempt from an awful lot of the Countries' laws.
       • SPC 4.2.1.1

         21 August 2023 at 3:44 pm

         Once again you are misrepresenting.

         While you've walked away from inference it has connection to our head of state arrangements, you are still trying to confuse conferring a diplomatic status with rights that connect of head of state standing.

         Don't try and persuade us

         You're still wrong.
       • bwaghorn 4.2.1.2

         21 August 2023 at 5:23 pm

         How many of these laws has Charlie or Liz before him broken my little pearl clutcher??
   • bwaghorn 4.3

     21 August 2023 at 5:21 pm

     Great idea , Tuhatia as head if state, purely symbolic , algood with me
5. Mike the Lefty 5

   21 August 2023 at 1:00 pm

   Some people don’t have a clue do they?

   http://www.stuff.co.nz/bay-of-plenty/300954412/quiz-team-apologises-for-kkk-hoods-as-iwi-condemn-their-actions-as-shocking.

   I mean, how could you possibly think this is OK?
   • Visubversa 5.1

     21 August 2023 at 1:35 pm

     Well, the "Settlers" obviously thought it was OK. Not a word of complaint until the spotlight was shone on them.
     • Mike the Lefty 5.1.1

       21 August 2023 at 1:49 pm

       I mean how incredibly naive is it to think you can mimic a group notorious for their racism and selective brutality and people will find it funny?

       On reflection as it is in Bay of Plenty and NZ First have selected a known conspiracy theorist nutter as their candidate in the Tauranga seat I suppose a few might have found it funny.
       • gsays 5.1.1.1

         21 August 2023 at 4:42 pm

         "I mean how incredibly naive is it to think you can mimic a group notorious for their racism and selective brutality…"

         I don't know, there is a rugby team that trades on imagery and posturing based on the slaughter of Muslims.

         Reluctantly toned it down after trying to imply it was honouring the 'crusading spirit' of the white settlers.
   • SPC 5.2

     21 August 2023 at 1:38 pm

     If they move to Auckland, there is a rotary club for them.

     https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/auckland-rotary-club-apologises-over-images-of-former-pm-jacinda-arderns-face-on-toilet-seat/SIUOX3VUW5BW5BPYVD5SZR363Y/
   • observer 5.3

     21 August 2023 at 2:48 pm

     From that Stuff link:

     The apology also referred to the consumption of alcohol and “impaired judgement”.

     No, not buying that excuse. We can all do stupid things on the spur of the moment, but this was not. These guys spent a long time … getting a bunch of white sheets, turning them into costumes with hoods, getting a petrol can as a prop, and so on.

     With all these stories (like the blackface ones that crop up all too often) the disturbing aspect is that a group of people plan the activity together and – apparently – nobody says "Um, hang on, do we really think this is a good idea?".

     Which is why the apology is fake. They didn't need hindsight, they knew, they just didn't care.
     • Anne 5.3.1

       21 August 2023 at 9:13 pm

       My first thought… that apology was written by a lawyer.
   • alwyn 5.4

     21 August 2023 at 3:20 pm

     Did Maori MP Rawiri Waititi ever apologise for his threat to poison David Seymour.

     Or was that just a joke as the TPM President John Tamihere claimed?

     ""These are karaka berries and they've still got the poison in them. So next time I go into Parliament this is what I'm going to do. When David Seymour's not looking, I'm going to go like this into his water," Waititi said."

     https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/07/act-leader-david-seymour-slams-te-p-ti-m-ori-for-threatening-violence-in-jokes-about-him.html
     • observer 5.4.1

       21 August 2023 at 3:33 pm

       Good old David. "I get to make the jokes, not you! Violence, it's all a laugh, innit? I mean violence against others, not me, obviously …".
     • SPC 5.4.2

       21 August 2023 at 3:33 pm

       If those, who say we should not accept jokes about political violence, want to be taken seriously, they should not then practice it themselves.
       • alwyn 5.4.2.1

         22 August 2023 at 10:57 am

         But did Waititi ever apologise for telling us, in some detail, how he was going to murder Seymour? That was the question.
         • SPC 5.4.2.1.1

           22 August 2023 at 12:02 pm

           No just how, but also when, do you know how many times Waititi has been to parliament since he made the comment …
6. joe90 6

   21 August 2023 at 2:19 pm

   Disaster porn and fire tourism.

   /

   @RonFilipkowski

   Right-wing “independent journalist” who flew in to Maui (he also went into E. Palestine) after the fire is confronted by angry residents while live on Steve Bannon’s show, who said he is exploiting them for politics and using up precious resources.

   https://twitter.com/RonFilipkowski/status/1693248630763700536

   Aug 19 (Reuters) – Wildfire tourists and drone operators who could be impeding the work of firefighters are being told by British Columbia officials that they are unwelcome while fast moving and unpredictable forest fires rage in the Canadian province.

   […]

   "Drones are a significant hazard to our air crews fighting fires," British Columbia's minister of forests Bruce Ralston said at a press conference. "Now is not the time to take the footage of photos of active wildfires. Not only is it irresponsible, but it is illegal to fly them in fire areas," he said.

   Some tourists have posted their wildfires experiences on social media and there are images of people lining up to see forest fires

   https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/fire-tourists-drone-fliers-told-stay-clear-british-columbia-blazes-2023-08-20/
7. SPC 7

   21 August 2023 at 2:38 pm

   National want half of the money allocated for free prescriptions diverted to cancer drug funding.

   It's a nice fit with Labour's budget planning, but how does it compare to National's, given the high cost of their tax cut programme?

   https://www.1news.co.nz/2023/08/21/national-pledges-280m-for-13-cancer-treatments/
   • observer 7.1

     21 August 2023 at 2:57 pm

     Shades of Key and Herceptin.

     It's always tacky when politicians pretend to care so much that they over-ride independent judgement. Using the word "cancer" for votes … yuk.

     And this is why Dr Luxon should not be your oncologist …

     National Party leader Christopher Luxon was quoted as saying 25,000 New Zealanders die from cancer each year. At 1.39pm, his team sent a corrected version saying 25,000 people are diagnosed with cancer each year, and about 10,000 die.

     https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300953944/nz-election-2023-live-national-promises-280m-to-pay-for-13-new-cancer-treatments
8. arkie 8

   21 August 2023 at 2:51 pm

   For the new study, researchers analyzed data on emissions and income from 1990 to 2019. Accounting for earnings from investments, they found that not only are the top 10 percent of earners responsible for 40 percent of emissions, but the top 1 percent are responsible for at least 15 percent of emissions. The study, published in PLOS Climate, further found that white Americans have the biggest carbon footprint of any group, while Black Americans have the smallest, a reflection of the racial wealth gap.

   The emissions disparity is more pronounced at the extreme end of the income spectrum, among the top one-tenth of 1 percent. “For example, 15 days of income for a top 0.1 percent household generates as much carbon pollution as a lifetime of income for a household in the bottom 10 percent,” Jared Starr, a researcher at the University of Massachusetts Amherst and lead author of the study, said in a statement.

   https://e360.yale.edu/digest/income-inequality-climate-change

   I don't like to individualise the responsibility of climate action given that 70% of climate change is attributable to 100 companies, but it is worth noting the link between high income lifestyles and climate change. This study shows that those who are already suffering the effects of climate change are the same that suffer from low incomes and inequity. Both these problems can be helped by effective taxation.
   • Patricia Bremner 8.1

     21 August 2023 at 3:47 pm

     Thanks Arkie, that is interesting.

     I wonder if our profile is similar. 85 families with 311 billion.

     Those applying for helicopter pads, are possibly in the high polluter group, along with high flying or ocean going rich.
9. SPC 9

   21 August 2023 at 4:07 pm

   A questioning of both greenfields sprawl and medium density eating up backyards.

   And raising the question of a use for golf course land.

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300952319/creating-sponge-cities-neednt-cost-billions–but-nz-has-to-start-now
10. SPC 10

    21 August 2023 at 4:19 pm

    Our hospital doctors and dentists want their pay linked to inflation before the election (apparently they can see the consequences of National's tax cuts on future health budgets)

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/nearly-5000-senior-doctors-dentists-to-strike-after-association-of-salaried-medical-specialists-vote/2Q2EVTCE4NCNNDQUYWFZ6Y54UA/
11. Reality 11

    21 August 2023 at 4:41 pm

    Contradictory of Luxon to say the well off should pay for their prescriptions but at the same time those same well off deserve generous tax cuts.
12. fisiani 12

    21 August 2023 at 6:19 pm

    Labour have steadily dropped down to 29% and could, no, will fall even further. 4 cents off carrots and $10 more in petrol is a recipe for a collapsing vote
    • weka 12.1

      21 August 2023 at 8:30 pm

      the trend however still has Labour above 30%

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2023_New_Zealand_general_election

      You've been away for awhile fisiani. If you are going to make claims of fact for something like polling in an eleciton year, please provide a reference and link.
      • D 12.1.1

        21 August 2023 at 9:10 pm

        I'm not sure if it would. I like that site, but the graphs are not updated nearly as fast as the polls are loaded on, sometimes they get a bit out of date. Looking at the chart, labours last are the 32.3 and 26, that leaves out last 4 polls from August and 3 of those are sub 30. If labour are not breaking under 30 on trend now, they will soon unless they turn some polls around.
        • lprent 12.1.1.1

          21 August 2023 at 11:52 pm

          It isn't late. The graph puts the point in the graph at the logical position – in the middle of the polled period.
13. D 13

    21 August 2023 at 9:20 pm

    Labour is sub 30 on 4 of last 6 polls on NZ election polling wiki site. I think they have not updated charts lately.
    • lprent 13.1

      21 August 2023 at 11:39 pm

      Sigh you are clearly a victim of your own inept laziness and outright stupidity.

      1. Didn’t you note the statement at the bottom of the graph.
         “Graph of opinion polls conducted. Smoothing is set to span 65%.”.
         So the lines are smoothed based on current and less so on previous results. This allows the trend to be observed without the problems with individual polls. Individual polls and even a set of similar polls in a short period don’t change a smoothed trend line.

      2. Of the 4 below 30 that managed to read, they were -1, -2.9, -1, and -4. The two above were +2 and +2.3. So there isn’t a lot of variation. Therefore you won’t get too much change in a smoothed trend line for polls from a single month.

      3. The graphs should updated automatically when the chart is updated. Certainly they appear to the late in August in the graph (given the short monthly spacing). I can see 6 red dots at the centre of the July/August poll dates. Clearly you don’t read the dates actually polled either – your ‘6’ goes back to late July.

      Basically you’re a lazy idiot. Probably just parroting some other lazy stupid idiot (you do sound like Mike Hosking who is the epitome of that set of traits). Clearly can’t think clearly. Hasn’t bothered to think.

      To me you read like a dumbarse troll. Carry on like that and I’ll treat you like one.
    • Incognito 13.2

      22 August 2023 at 9:07 pm

      Both graphs were created 2 August 2023. It’s all in the metadata.

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