Open mike 22/09/2023

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, September 22nd, 2023 - 66 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:


Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

66 comments on “Open mike 22/09/2023 ”

  • Comments are now closed

  1. Tiger Mountain 1
    22 September 2023 at 6:43 am

    Dirty, filthy, Rupert Murdoch is to step down. The damage this person has done to human society is immense.
    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2023/sep/21/rupert-murdoch-stepping-down-chair-fox-news-corp

    • tc 1.1
      22 September 2023 at 8:24 am

      Can't see much changes just because he steps down with all the outlets he has globally continuing on with their agendas.

      Probably gets worse as it frees him up to be involved in the day to day matters even more.

  2. PsyclingLeft.Always 2
    22 September 2023 at 8:13 am

    The potential Coalition of Chaos (unless we stop them !)

    Moderator Rebecca Wright asked Seymour if he could work with Peters.

    "Can anyone?" he responded.

    While seeming to agree a short time later he could sit down with Peters, he went on to say: "Ultimately, if a parliament's elected by the people then you make it work, but I just say it's not credible for the guy who has had more chances to fix New Zealand's problems showing up like a fireman and saying, 'I'm here to fix it all'. It's just not credible."

    At one point Davidson interjected: "Do people actually think Luxon is going to be able to manage these two, for real?" gesturing to Peters and Seymour.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/498488/cracks-appear-soon-after-show-of-unity-from-act-nz-first-leaders

    And Marama Davidson…

    Marama Davidson was nominated as the star performer by analysts afterwards

    There has been some dislike (if not worse!) for Marama on The Standard. I like her….IMO a genuine person.

  3. Roy Cartland 3
    22 September 2023 at 8:45 am

    Here's the video of the Newshub Power Brokers debate, fyi:

    https://www.youtube.com/live/db6k68wgwHA?si=Efx1NfrEivbvqMht

  5. PsyclingLeft.Always 5
    22 September 2023 at 9:17 am

    There has been criticism of Jenna Lynch on the Standard, some valid, some not….and some to do with her Husband being in ACT? Anyway..she made this comment

    It is quite incredible to watch the real-life transformation of David Seymour into a kind of low-rent Winston Peters when he hates the guy," Lynch said.

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2023/09/election-2023-newshub-nation-powerbrokers-debate-live.html

    Well…that was a pretty perceptive comment.

    • Anne 5.1
      22 September 2023 at 9:52 am

      "… that was a pretty perceptive comment."

      We'll have to disagree on that one PLA.

      Sure, they are both populist politicians and they both have a combative style, but as individuals they about as far apart as one could get. They don't appear to have anything in common apart from their lust for power for power's sake. There's plenty of politicians past and present who could be described as such.

      I'm not sure Jenna Lynch was being genuine with that comment. It almost came across as a line she had rehearsed in advance. She knew it would garner a response from the audience and she got it.

      • PsyclingLeft.Always 5.1.1
        22 September 2023 at 10:04 am

        She knew it would garner a response from the audience and she got it.

        What response do you think she wanted?

        • Anne 5.1.1.1
          22 September 2023 at 10:23 am

          Not sure to be honest. TV3 political commentators are into gotcha politics and like to stir the pot for clickbait? Pitching Seymour and Peters together like that would be one way of doing it.

          • PsyclingLeft.Always 5.1.1.1.1
            22 September 2023 at 10:38 am

            There are, no doubt, many media political commentators who like to throw in inflammatory comments…(stirrers ?). However I dont know which would be more inclined to do so? The Herald is often put forward as one..but I have seen some reporting not so… right wing ?

            Also Stuff…and others. I suppose its subjective.

            Anyway..the response to the Jenna Lynch comment I saw and heard..is on the link video, around… 5:35

            https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2023/09/election-2023-newshub-nation-powerbrokers-debate-live.html

            The audience didnt seem exactly happy? And that was why I made my initial comment….

            IMO Seymour/Peters still..very much Narcissist's and alike in ..however that goes.

    • Bearded Git 5.2
      22 September 2023 at 9:54 am

      Well spotted psych….Seymour may yet screw this up for Luxon

      • PsyclingLeft.Always 5.2.1
        22 September 2023 at 10:16 am

        Yea I think..(IMO of course}…that Seymour is a Narcissist. And thats possibly whereby some of his antipathy towards Winston Peters. They very much view each other as competition in the limelight regard.

        All that..would be very bad for us and NZ. And the more that is revealed..the less Chris Luxon and his chaos crew will be seen as any good.

        • Anne 5.2.1.1
          22 September 2023 at 10:46 am

          "Yea I think..(IMO of course}…that Seymour is a Narcissist."

          Absolutely. And a sociopath to boot. The two invariably go together. The way he intends to carve up some of the good work the Labour Govt. has done to assist the vulnerable in society is a case in point. [Yeah there's more to be done but it can't be done overnight.]

          For example, I am on the Super and the heating subsidy over the winter months is a godsend. He wants it scrapped. Not a thought for the welfare of most pensioners. There are numerous other examples of his sociopathic tendances as well.

          The 'vulnerable' are undeserving in his view. What a first class prick!

          • PsyclingLeft.Always 5.2.1.1.1
            22 September 2023 at 10:58 am

            Anne..that is so much, why I fear that NAct could be in power.

            I am getting older..but still able to work hard physical jobs at times..(not sure how much longer?!) and do a lot of self sufficiency.

            Its not so much for me..but for the vulnerable that i fear .

            Seymour and his cronies…would willingly institute a slash society. With them slashing…. all the way down..to the slashed at the bottom : (

            I sincerely hope they never get to do it

        • Stephen D 5.2.1.2
          22 September 2023 at 10:50 am

          For the sake of power; principles, policy, and personal feelings will be compromised.

          Seymour hasn’t come this far to sit on the cross benches. Winston will do anything to stay relevant.

    • bwaghorn 5.3
      22 September 2023 at 6:45 pm

      I agree completely, seymour is definitely morning into peters , 40 years of seymour is something to look forward to ain't it!!!!

  6. miravox 6
    22 September 2023 at 10:09 am

    Thinking of the down South people – take care out there.

  7. AB 7
    22 September 2023 at 10:09 am

    Looks like the change from La Nina to El Nino in an overheated world just means different sorts of severe damage in different places. It's not stopping. But at least the delightful people of Queenstown with their guts ravaged by cryptosporidium, their town awash and tourists getting out and staying away for the forseeable, might get the tax cut they so ache for from that wonderfully decisive and 'up for it' Mr Luxon next year. That will solve all problems.

    • Sanctuary 7.1
      22 September 2023 at 10:35 am

      Food prices won't be coming down soon – El Nino will most likely hammer global food production, and "heatflation" is coming.

      You'd like to think the government at least had a plan on what to do in the case of a severe global cereal shortage (for example – re-purposing land to wheat production) but you just know that no is, and if there is a small team somewhere who even monitor this sort of thing ACT wants to get rid of them, on the basis that if the market says people must starve to death, well the market is infalliable.

    • Ad 7.2
      22 September 2023 at 10:53 am

      The 2023-36 government no matter who they are will be required to clean up multiple disasters. The current Southland floods are nowhere near as great as the 1979-1983 series that wiped out Kelso and took out large sections of Invercargill including the airport.

      But coupled with a lower-than-optimum water purification system in Queenstown we are going to see the necessity for Three Waters integrated stormwater and wastewater and water supply integrated investments at a deeper and broader level – no matter what Luxon or Hipkins want.

    • Tiger Mountain 7.3
      22 September 2023 at 10:59 am

      As an empathetic type, my “thoughts and prayers” go out to Queenstown residents, well, at least to baristas and bartenders sleeping in vans!

      • Ad 7.3.1
        22 September 2023 at 12:20 pm

        With the collapse of the milk price per kilo, in reality it's the Queenstown tourism industry propping up the country's export income. And indeed, up the workers, sleeping in their vans.

  8. Ad 8
    22 September 2023 at 10:55 am

    With diesel heading for $2.50 and 91 heading for $3.50, this government's closure and active dismantling of Marsden Point refinery could be the most damaging long term move they ever did. In Queenstown and Wanaka we are already there for diesel.

    Anyone wants to see where our main inflation driver is, fuel is about 25% of food production.

    • weka 8.1
      22 September 2023 at 11:03 am

      big incentive to transition faster.

      • Ad 8.1.1
        22 September 2023 at 11:23 am

        That's a pretty cruel comment for most New Zealanders who have no choice how they get about.

        • weka 8.1.1.1
          22 September 2023 at 11:54 am

          not really. If we don't use these pressures to transition, it's akin to saying 'sorry pandemic, we're not ready to do what is necessary, let's do it later'. The cost of living crisis doesn't exist separately from the climate/eco crisis, it's part of the same thing.

          There's no good reason to not be transitioning right now. For instance, we could be relocalising food production and adopting regenerative models. That both drops GHGs, and builds resilience by reducing our reliance on the global food supply chain.

          The block to that is industry's lack of imagination and experience on how to create a different kind of economy. The people who do know how to transition aren't the ones with the power (mostly). It's the same dynamic with tourism that wasted the opportunity from the pandemic because the industry bods were using old ways of thinking.

          Not completely, there are obviously good things happening in tourism from the more progressive side. But trying to do things like save the ski industry in its current form is just fucking nuts.

          People have a right to be fucked off and react to the CoL crisis. Chickens are coming home to roost though, and voting in a NactNZF hybrid government because of the CoL crisis will just make the situation much much worse.

          • Ad 8.1.1.1.1
            22 September 2023 at 12:14 pm

            Scolding people convinces no one. Change your tone.

            Cynically drawing on the ruptures of crisis to tilt our society very rarely goes to plan and usually makes things worse. You could always pop down to Gore right now and try to convince people about their unrighteousness.

            No one is having a block of imagination when they're at Pak n Save unable to afford a block of cheese.

            The ski industry is happily transitioning to the offroad cycling industry, from where I work in Wanaka and Queenstown. They do so when they are presented with reasonable and rational choices.

            Being fucked off in reality is just a signal for people to fuck off. So what we get as a replacement is cheap foreign labour, not some utopia where the haute-bourgeoisie and their ultra-refined tastes gradually expand. If only.

            The most organised transition towns are either in dire poverty subsidised up the wazoo by the state, or run by ultra-elites like Wanaka's WAO movement.

            This is not a moment for blunt ideological instruments and cheap shots at the poor who have no choice.

            • weka 8.1.1.1.1.1
              22 September 2023 at 12:45 pm

              stop making shit up about my views. I'm not taking shots at poor people, I'm taking shots at industry leaders who've been dragging the chain for decades.

              I'm talking to people on TS not people in Gore or Queenstown or Twizel. This is classic manipulative commenting from you. If you feel scolded, maybe that says something about your resistance to change.

              The ski industry is happily transitioning to the offroad cycling industry, from where I work in Wanaka and Queenstown. They do so when they are presented with reasonable and rational choices.

              Yes, this is my point exactly. We need the people with the imagination to bring the reasonable and rational transition choices to the table, but instead far too many BAU people are still the ones with the power.

              Mountain bike tracks are great, and they won't help people feed themselves when the shit hits the fan because we used an economy before ecology lens going into the climate crisis.

              As for tone, at times you are one of the most relentlessly negative people here. Sometimes it's like two different people commenting from your handle, you obviously bring a wealth of industry experience and sometimes some deep and clear thought. But your constant sniping at the leading edge on transition is just tedious as fuck, and it also blocks change in its own small way.

            • newsense 8.1.1.1.1.2
              22 September 2023 at 10:50 pm

              Be kind to the farmers.

              Be kind to the ones who told us it was a hoax, then to be fast followers, then slow followers, and now that they already are the best in the world at efficiency (no link provided), that no one else is doing anything and that it is all a hoax any how.

              Don’t scold them Weka. Be kind.

              Also don’t scold Ad. Be kind.

              It’s going to be a long 6- 9 years with a wealth of ignorance representing our official positions or nod, wink.

              Applause for Peters at Business North Shore for strip tease climate denial:

              https://www.newsroom.co.nz/peters-predicts-being-in-government-and-a-pre-xmas-mini-budget

              Oh and Andrew Hoggard of the Federated Farmers- the rational ones- who said climate change probably exists and then joined ACT.

              We’ve been lead by blunt tools for a long time.

              For 25 years, as Chippy did when he arrived as PM, the speeches begin with ‘Now is not the time…’

              I too struggle to find a consistency of ideas with Ad. I think I might have said at a grumpier moment that he seemed like a Rogernome ready to join ACT with some of his rhetoric.

              There is no alternative to ignoring climate change. Anyone who tries policies to come to terms with it is a something or other.

              Unbelievable that Queenstown has cut back its rates to the point where they are unable to provide drinking water. It’s a preview. If no drinking water is an option for cuts, then minimal climate action isn’t going to be much more popular.

          • gsays 8.1.1.1.2
            22 September 2023 at 12:19 pm

            I don't disagree with any of that.

            What sticks in the craw, is Wood's decision (Wood's advisors decision, let's be frank) was purely a financial decision, see DOS's Newsroom link.

            Undermines our independence, resilience and puts out fuel security at the whim of foreign shipping companies.

            Of course holding this opinion makes you a nutjob, a cooker, a fringe. Hard to keep company with those who thoughtlessly use this refrain.
            See TM below, although they are far from the only one to chuck this epithet around carelessly.

            • weka 8.1.1.1.2.1
              22 September 2023 at 12:47 pm

              Closing Marsden Point looks like a big mistake from a resiliency pov. And a neolib response from someone who doesn't understand the seriousness of the crisis.

              • Graeme …
                23 September 2023 at 6:50 am

                Fossil fuels, no matter where they are refined, are a mistake from a resiliency pov for New Zealand. Either way they still have to be imported.

                When you've got to import most of the components, especially the really critical ones, that keep Marsden Point going, it makes sense to leave the refining to economies that have the engineering scale and expertise to build, maintain and run the things. Refineries are hard, and a sunset industry. It might surprise some people here but the industry sets that, which is why small, isolated refineries like Marsden Point are being closed around the world.

                This article gives an interesting 'fuel industry' perspective https://www.fuelsandlubes.com/fli-article/the-end-of-oil-refining-in-australia/

                Re security of supply

                The reality is there is little difference in fuel security risk between importing refined fuel or crude oil. A multitude of seaborne routes to-and-from Australia ensure a reasonable level of supply chain security.

                Re resilience

                The Australia Institute’s quarterly National Energy Emissions Audit has previously questioned the logic of propping up old and inefficient refineries with public money and suggested it will do little to boost Australia’s fuel security. “The best way to increase Australia’s energy security in the medium term would be to reduce consumption of petrol by rapidly switching to electric passenger vehicles and focus on diesel and jet fuel supplies as the main energy security challenge,” says Dr. Hugh Saddler, energy analyst and author of the National Energy Emissions Audit.

            • Kat 8.1.1.1.2.2
              22 September 2023 at 12:47 pm

              "Foreign shipping companies…………

              How did the crude oil get to NZ to be refined, I am sure it wasn't by post.

              • Drowsy M. Kram …
                22 September 2023 at 1:05 pm

                yes NZ exports all the oil produced here, so that small trading income stream is also “at the whim of foreign shipping companies.”

                All local oil production is exported as the New Zealand refinery is not suited to processing it.
                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_and_gas_industry_in_New_Zealand

                https://tradingeconomics.com/new-zealand/crude-oil-production

                • Adrian …
                  22 September 2023 at 1:22 pm

                  NZ oil is exported as it is very low in sulpher and is used amongst other tasks for smelting steel and high grade chemicals and is worth a lot more per barrel than the low grade stuff used for processing into diesel and petrol. Just economic sense.

                  The refinery was closed down because by the time the necessary multi billion dollar rebuild would be finished it would have been almost redundant as the majority of the transport fleet will then be electric.

              • gsays …
                22 September 2023 at 2:05 pm

                Apart from the environmental plus, do you think closing Marsden Point was a good decision?

                • Peter …
                  22 September 2023 at 4:19 pm

                  When the crap hits the fan with fuel all the Nat/Act, private enterprise/ 'Government out of business' mob will go crazy about Labour. It'll be 'they should have bought the refinery, taken it over, blah, blah blah.'

    • Tiger Mountain 8.2
      22 September 2023 at 11:08 am

      A number of anti 5G type nut jobs up here in Northland made much of closing the Refinery, but for different reasons it may indeed have been a mistake

      A person I know well was there a lot in a Union role and got to know the site’s history and the motivation of various managers. Green energy was not at all acceptable to the board, that was a potential happener on the old Marsden B site.

      Really, it goes back to Rogernomics and setting up Refining NZ which was the typical license to rake it in for the international oil industry.

    • Descendant Of Smith 8.3
      22 September 2023 at 11:36 am

      Though I had always understood it wasn't able to process Maui's oil and the reasons for closing it down had very little to do with the government. The shareholders voted to sell. I'm not sure what you would have wanted – the government to buy a refinery (and incur the future clean-up costs) from the private sector who had deemed it be closed.

      Thought you were against unnecessary government spending.

      The refinery was closed down for commercial strategic reasons – closure was even a condition of Ampol’s takeover of Z Energy.

      https://www.newsroom.co.nz/national-cost-of-marsden-point-closure-highlighted-by-christmas-jet-fuel-shortage

      • Ad 8.3.1
        22 September 2023 at 12:01 pm

        It was Woods and Cabinet that discussed intervening in 2021 by underwriting the refinery for up to 10 years.

        So Whangarei lost 240 of some of the highest paid jobs in Northland. And they are never coming back, either as incomes or as families to our shores.

        Woods decided in her Cabinet paper on it that there wasn't enough of a case to support the continued operation on fuel security grounds.

        Should not have needed a new Defence White Paper to figure out the risk we have to the Singapore refineries.

        And of course we are quite happy to shore up Glenbrook Steel to the tune of $300 million to disable using our own ironsands.

        This world does not owe New Zealand the right to be secure.

        • weka 8.3.1.1
          22 September 2023 at 12:11 pm

          Woods decided in her Cabinet paper on it that there wasn't enough of a case to support the continued operation on fuel security grounds.

          was that an economic decision?

        • Descendant Of Smith 8.3.1.2
          22 September 2023 at 1:06 pm

          There is a substantial difference however between the government choosing not to buy it versus the government closing it down.

          In my view Douglas should never have sold it but he did. Unsure as to the wisdom of picking it up again. Here is MBIES advice which also points out that refinery's were closing/had closed elsewhere as well.

          Australia had seven operating refineries in 2010, of which only two now remain operating – supported by an Australian Government assistance package of up to A$2.3 billion announced in May 2021. According to the US Energy Information Agency, the US had 129 oil refineries at the beginning of 2021, down from 135 a year earlier, with closures attributed to falling fuel demand and increasing interest in renewable diesel production.

          https://www.mbie.govt.nz/dmsdocument/17733-fuel-supply-resilience-without-a-domestic-oil-refinery-proactiverelease-pdf

          I think the bigger mistake made in NZ was decommissioning the electrification of the main trunk line but we all have our particular interests.

          • PsyclingLeft.Always 8.3.1.2.1
            23 September 2023 at 8:08 am

            I think the bigger mistake made in NZ was decommissioning the electrification of the main trunk line

            Absolutely. But really…there was no Govt interest in continuing any Rail in NZ…at all. It was instead, more and heavier trucks ..with of course the ever increasing attendant road damage.

  9. Kat 9
    22 September 2023 at 11:24 am

    Now that the Marsden Refinery has been shut down the next move should be to dismantle the eyesore that it is and return the Cove to the beauty it once was. Whangarei is starting to look like a lovely city and a wonderful place to live. With the Bay of Islands just up the road Northland is truly a gem in the NZ crown. The marine industry for one is on a high growth curve.

  10. weka 10
    22 September 2023 at 12:22 pm

    Good short read from Kemara on Dirty Politics and Rawshark.

    https://bsky.app/profile/taipo.bsky.social/post/3k7k3hr2shq2n

    • Roy Cartland 10.1
      22 September 2023 at 12:55 pm

      Can you post the text here? That link just takes me to a Blue Sky login…? (Another thing to sign up for)

      • weka 10.1.1
        22 September 2023 at 1:04 pm

        sorry about that, I wasn't sure how bluesky displayed here. So annoying when they do that. Here's the first post, but there are ten altogether.

        9 years ago, in the year of our lord 2014, came the release of the book Dirty Politics by Nicky Hager detailing the haxored disclosures by Rawshark the great, which brought the National lead governments dirty politics division to a grinding halt.

        • Tricledrown 10.1.1.2
          22 September 2023 at 1:21 pm

          That only pushed it underground and made them more careful at not been caught.This has resulted in better coordination and funding of the Dirty politics brigade morphing into so-called independent institutes which push the right wing agenda.

        • Tricledrown 10.1.1.3
          22 September 2023 at 1:31 pm

          Nick Hager has been stalked and bullied out of politics by the right wing.The police illegally hounded him and had to pay a large sum in reparation no one charged in the police for the political hatchet job.The SIS had tabs on green activists who were protesting legally while the SIS completely ignored right wing white supremacists .No open inquiry into both organisations!

          Nick Hager's investigative journalism is missing in this country today,It takes a very brave individual to take on the very powerful.

          • Roy Cartland 10.1.1.3.1
            22 September 2023 at 1:47 pm

            Well I saw him at warehouse stationery the other day, printing out a whole lot of… something! So maybe he's not missing, but regrouping!

          • Anne 10.1.1.3.2
            22 September 2023 at 7:04 pm

            "Nick Hager has been stalked and bullied out of politics by the right wing."

            He was only one with a very high profile. It started way back in the 1960s/70s (maybe earlier) and continued to occur well into the 1990s at the least.

            Someone here recently suggested I should write a book about my experiences. What I think would be far more useful would be for an expert (Nicky Hager or someone with his level of experience) to interview those of us targeted in the past and write a book of our collective experiences. I think it would shock many people to discover what was going on in this country. I am sure the meme that 'New Zealand is the least corrupt country in the world' would take a bit of a thrashing.

  11. Dennis Frank 11
    22 September 2023 at 1:34 pm

    The collusion between the red & blue neolibs is exemplified by their campaign strategy (fake it till you make it) as dissected by RNZ here:

    This week, neither National nor Labour answered clearly how much they had planned to set aside for these costs nor how they intended to pay them. They instead focused their answers on wanting to cut planet-heating emissions more deeply inside New Zealand’s borders.

    At times, politicians seemed to confuse domestic emissions budgets with the $3b-plus added cost of buying offsets to meet the Paris target, or they made heroic statements about how much they could do onshore, without supplying the figures behind them.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/election-2023-the-multibillion-dollar-climate-hole-faced-by-both-labour-and-national/W4UCM54ABFAYBCY46V3YX37ZVU/

    I suppose one could sympathise with the collective horror they must feel at the challenge of having to deliver realistic long-term budgeting, but circumstances seem to be demanding that they do their job properly. We're hiring these turkeys to act professional.

The server will be getting hardware changes this evening starting at 10pm NZDT.
The site will be off line for some hours.