Open mike 22/06/2015

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, June 22nd, 2015 - 89 comments
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89 comments on “Open mike 22/06/2015 ”

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  1. Northsider 1
    22 June 2015 at 6:45 am

    In Scotland a recent TNS poll which said just five per cent of people aged 25 to 34 intend to vote Labour, while 80 per cent will vote SNP.

    The likely new leader of the Scottish branch office told her supporters: “We may not be at the bottom of where the Labour party could get to in Scottish public life. There might be another storm coming.

    The SNP are now clearly the party of the left in Scotland and there is no future for Labout there. The sooner English Labour starts engaging with the SNP as an ally rather than the enemy the sooner the fight against the Tories can be won.

  2. b waghorn 2
    22 June 2015 at 6:59 am

    http://i.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/69534286/Duncan-Garner-Deadbeat-parents-should-be-in-the-dock-with-their-kids
    I can’t say I agree with the wording but I do think parents should be held accountable for there kids behavior.

    • Visubversaviper 2.1
      22 June 2015 at 7:13 am

      And their spelling.

      • Rodel 2.1.1
        22 June 2015 at 8:39 pm

        Nitpicking and Natzish I know but I too get mildly irritated by the minor spelling/grammar errors in bw’s well presented and thoughtful posts.
        Not life threatening but:

        ‘Don’t confuse their and there. Their is a possessive pronoun: I like their new car. There is an adverb meaning ‘at that place’: park the car over there.’

    • Paul 2.2
      22 June 2015 at 7:17 am

      Too simplistic an argument by Garner.
      Showing his true colours in this article.
      But then what would you expect?

      • b waghorn 2.2.1
        22 June 2015 at 7:44 am

        Yes but what do think might work? . he’s highlighted the extreme end but I think if the first time a kid gets the polices attention the parents get fined or sent to parenting course it could nip a lot of problems in the bud.

        • Sabine 2.2.1.1
          22 June 2015 at 8:10 am

          So Paul Holmes should have been fined or more once the Police got hold of Millie abusing P?

          Heck we are not locking up those that actually commit crimes….Roastbusters anyone? All these guys that are having name suppression cause they are important and rich New Zealanders. …..

          IF we started with those than maybe others would have a bit more faith in the Justics System.

          • b waghorn 2.2.1.1.1
            22 June 2015 at 8:22 am

            I’m talking about kids under 16 or maybe 18 past that they are an adult.
            It would be interesting to know the first time the ones you mentioned crossed paths with the police though .

            • Sabine 2.2.1.1.1.1
              22 June 2015 at 8:48 am

              the roastbusters were between 15 – 17 at the time i think.

              The reason I mention these two is actually as all the offenders come from well off families, and often if not always they don’t get to punished either way, case in point big fuss about Millies Gangbanger boyfriends death and the roastbusters boys will be boys treatment.

              see here Texas

              http://forcechange.com/33331/repeal-texas-truancy-laws-which-fine-and-jail-students-for-missing-class/

              http://www.newrepublic.com/article/121186/truancy-laws-unfairly-attack-poor-children-and-parents

              then you have this https://www.aclu.org/fact-sheet/what-school-prison-pipeline

              and this most interesting as parents might go to prison themselves if they can not a. restrain their children, or b. pay fines that children rake up. http://www.npr.org/2014/12/16/371264533/should-parents-be-legally-responsible-for-childrens-serious-crimes

              What we might want to ask is who will be most impacted by these Hard on Crime Feel Good Measures. My guess would be low income, three job working, single parents, parents that have just gone through hard time, etc. type parents. The ones that sit in the richer parts of the country and that go to the nicer schools will have enough cash to pay a lawyer and ask for name suppression, and community work.

              • b waghorn …
                22 June 2015 at 9:51 am

                Regarding the reaction to elder’s blokes death I can only assume he was the Auckland in crowds dealer of choice including the reporters.
                And how the buster sikos got away with it is a national shame.
                Fining the truant is stupid .
                What I’m getting at is the kids who get picked up wandering the streets , if there parents where given the option of a fine or attending some form of family guidance I bet they would start paying attention to what there kids are up to.

                • Sabine …
                  22 June 2015 at 10:09 am

                  read the first two links. This one really only speaks of truancy, and how it its criminalizing poor parents, often working a few jobs, and yes, these parents if they can’t pay the fine can opt to go to prison. What this Duncan Garner Guys is advocating has been done in the states for years now, to such devastating effect that many inclusive Law Enforcement, Schools and others are calling for the Truancy Fine System to be dismantled.

                  We should rather invest money in an apprenticeship system to get those kids of the street that quit school at 14 / 15 because they are not suited to school. And it is a Fact, not all of our children do well in school, not all of our children are happy to go to school till they are 18.
                  We just simply don’t offer them a different alternative then school.

                  In the states they call it the School to Prison Pipeline. I have added a link in my comment above. Google the term, it makes for good reading.

        • Ron 2.2.1.2
          22 June 2015 at 9:46 pm

          Don’t worry the answer will soon be upon us. Once SERCO take over social welfare they will have a vested interest in ensuring there is a steady supply of youth offenders heading off to Prison where their Company will be employed to guard them. It’s a regular money go round. Interesting that in USA there was a recent case of Judges being on payroll of the Private Juvenile Prisons and they were paid to ensure offenders were sent to those prisons.
          Might be worth investing in some of the Private Prision companies here

          Yes but what do think might work? .

          • b waghorn 2.2.1.2.1
            23 June 2015 at 7:26 am

            The US should only be used as a guide on how not to do things. Any one who views them as leaders is at best a moron.

      • JanM 2.2.2
        22 June 2015 at 12:55 pm

        What is not being examined is what sort of upbringing those parents had and what they actually understand about child-rearing. Garner is, as usual, being simplistic.

    • Charles 2.3
      22 June 2015 at 8:49 am

      meh. If Duncan can write the whole story containing accurate enough description of the family past, and then say it’s all the fault of the parents, he’s a dunce. Duncean Garner. Unfortunately for Garner, his coy views do not reveal that, shock horror, the parents are people too, with their stories and context, living in NZ.

      Let us all recite the Right wing myth: We create society. Society has no effect on anyone, society doesn’t exist.

      To the Right, what we live now is perfectly normal. Ther eis no yesterday. Everyone should be happy and white. There is no cause and effect, no object and environment. No one ever influences the behaviour of anyone else. Unless a Rightie gets angry that their greed is being curtailed by society.

      In other parts of the world, society (the local village) is put in the dock with criminals. We are too sophisticated for that. Wholistic thinking is for the stoneage. Blame and deception is our preferred method.

    • Draco T Bastard 2.4
      22 June 2015 at 9:35 am

      His childhood was not normal and he had a history of getting into fights, lying, stealing and disregarding authority.

      The last two words are a good tell on where Garner is coming from. He expects people to bow down to authority immediately, no questions asked.

      His mother gave him cannabis in a bizarre bid to wean him off synthetic cannabis.

      I wouldn’t call that bizarre considering that synthetic cannabis is more damaging and more addictive than actual cannabis which, of course, is why it was taken off the shelves.

      The truth is these people don’t deserve to have babies.

      Don’t see him saying that about the National Party despite the pain and horror that they’ve caused to the poor over the last few years.

      • Tracey 2.4.1
        22 June 2015 at 1:08 pm

        If you don’t depend on the state apparently you can have as many children as you like no matter how dysfunctional they and your family is… no matter how bad your children are ,no matter how many Class A drugs they take or deal.

        I’m trying to remember if Paul Holmes got vilified or sancitfied when his daughter went off the rails?

        • Sabine 2.4.1.1
          22 June 2015 at 1:18 pm

          He tried everything to get her off it, went on a crusade against P. He was very vocal about it.

          However, no one would want to fine him him for his daughter going of the rail and being a little shit. No that is reserved for the mongrels that have too many kids and that can’t look after their kids. Poor families, and single parent families, and families that don’t live in Parnell or Ponsonby.

          • Tracey 2.4.1.1.1
            22 June 2015 at 1:25 pm

            Thanks Sabine… it was kind of rhetorical but as some won’t recall, thanks for filling us in.

            Cos he was white and rich he was sanctified for his crusade not vilified for an upbringing that led her down that path…

    • marty mars 2.5
      22 June 2015 at 9:53 am

      “but I do think parents…”

      “The sad reality is we have a bunch of uneducated, drug-abusing mongrels bringing young people into this world. ”

      The wording says it all – as long as people are labeled like this, there will be problems. Yes parents need better child raising skills and more options and support. Yes parents need access to resources and community and yes options for life and living not worrying about the bills or how to get food on the table. That can’t happen if people are demonised and ridiculed. Kindness, sympathy, empathy and direct support is needed – and that is where the government comes in – with the money.

    • vto 2.6
      22 June 2015 at 10:22 am

      I don’t imagine Mrs Key senior will want to be hauled before the courts for all of her son’s wrongdoing, especially in light of the most especial office he holds in our land…

      But would be a good example to set – maybe Mrs Key senior would like to volunteer

    • DH 2.7
      22 June 2015 at 12:26 pm

      IMO this is typical kneejerk vengeance-seeking populism from Garner. It’s a fair bet the parents will have similar stories to their kids. Do you put their parents in the dock as well? Their parents too?

      • Tracey 2.7.1
        22 June 2015 at 1:09 pm

        Sadly it seems by appointing Garner Mediaworks is taking Hosking on with their own hosking.

        • Puddleglum 2.7.1.1
          22 June 2015 at 2:57 pm

          Yes, it’s a sad state of affairs.

          It’s important to remember that Hoskings, himself, said he was not a journalist:

          “Finally to all those who get exercised about this stuff, much of it seems based on the fact that “journalists” are supposed to be neutral.

          Well, top tip for you, I am not a journalist, and any claimed neutrality from others is most often a myth.”

          So, if Garner takes over the 7pm slot on TV3 and he is meant to be TV3’s Mike Hosking we will now not have journalists running our main, broadcast ‘current affairs’ shows.

    • b waghorn 2.8
      22 June 2015 at 1:43 pm

      One of iprents comments in the last day was how he ran this site to get people coming up with ideas ,so when a story that highlights the problems that would be close to most “lefties ” hearts , ie disfunctional families and the system failing kids I foolishly thought there might be a good descussion started. And yet all that happened was highlighting of the negative things the author said and the negative out comes from failed attempts to solve the problems. Baa fucking hum bug

      • McFlock 2.8.1
        22 June 2015 at 2:09 pm

        The thing is that visiting the sins of the children upon their parents is no more “left” than cursing the children with the sins of their parents.

        The solutions to dysfunctional families and wayward children are, for the most part, well known. But the solutions involve short term expense in housing, income, education, truancy response, and social work, rather than more punitive measures against people who might be incapable of solving the problems their kids face.

        If anything, if the parents are working long hours or depressed and unemployed, then a fine that simply increases the financial pressure is hardly likely to solve anything. And if the parents are estranged from their kids, nothing builds bridges like “great, now I need to pay off this fine because of you”, right?

        • b waghorn 2.8.1.1
          22 June 2015 at 3:01 pm

          And if the parents are estranged from their kids, nothing builds bridges like “great, now I need to pay off this fine because of you”, right?
          Yes I had thought of that angle and that’s were the offer of help instead would be good.
          But from my own experience if my parents had of got a short sharp shock when I was 15 and had a brush with the law my outcomes might of been very different and I’ve been around long enough to know I’m not unique.
          And I realize a fine for the mother in the story would of achieved nothing but she and others in her situation still have to take some responsibility for there actions.
          And as for help I have first hand knowledge of a ” mother ” (not mine) who has had alsorts of help and her kids still have to go through p withdrawals after there school holidays with them. It come as a surprise to some lefties but some people don’t want saving there happy being nasty people.

          • McFlock 2.8.1.1.1
            22 June 2015 at 3:24 pm

            In the case in question, one mother was already in prison when the crime was committed.

            I reckon that basically negates the idea of whether prison (or the threat thereof) makes for better parents.

            Your life would have been different – but in what way? Garner says that apparently the system in some parts of the US doesn’t even work anyway. So better or worse is up in the air.

            So what sort of “responsibility” should the parents of serious offenders take?

            I think the entire idea is bunk, for the reasons I initially stated.

            • b waghorn 2.8.1.1.1.1
              22 June 2015 at 3:51 pm

              In the case of parents who’s only fault is not really paying attention to what there kids are up to (in my case drinking ) I disagree as a society I think there has to be the expectation that parentsrotect there kids even if it is from them selves. In the case of the ones in garners story I bet that they had been brought tho the attention of the police and probably cyfs long before the poor man got killed . hell maybe we need a whole family facilty so they can be gotten a way from the circles they move in and have time to get off the drugs and heal.

  3. Arthur 3
    22 June 2015 at 8:35 am

    The PM has a cunning plan. If when asked a question he makes the answer incomprehensible he can’t be accused of not knowing the answer or of lying.

    • b waghorn 3.1
      22 June 2015 at 8:43 am

      To be fair he didn’t invent it but he is taking it to new levels.

    • North 3.2
      22 June 2015 at 8:49 am

      Speaking of “incomprehensible” did anyone else hear ShonKey Python on TV the other night exhorting us to patriotism centred on ‘The Flag’ ? Can’t find the link but my goodness he was beaming at the prospect. Has he lost it altogether now, or is he just retired on a ranch in Texas somewhere, or what ?

      • ianmac 3.2.1
        22 June 2015 at 9:33 am

        What a hypocrite is Key. When asked about why he thinks we should have a new flag he talked about how we are no longer a colonial country but wasn’t asked to justify his fawning to the Royal family which he makes us another colonial slave to those royals.

        • Tracey 3.2.1.1
          22 June 2015 at 2:19 pm

          he’ll turn down the knighthood right? He will collect his knighthood from our GG in wellington, the Queen in Buck House, right?

          I laugh!

      • Ffloyd 3.2.2
        22 June 2015 at 9:44 am

        North. That was on Sunday as well talking to Miriama Kamo. Apparently a new flag will give us an *overt* way to be patriotic to our flag. New word this week is OVERT. He’s up to the O’s. Usually like her but this was a puff piece. He was a grinning loon with a bad hair rug that appears to be woven out of the hair of the endangered orangutang. And speaking of incomprehensible, MK asked him the likely cost of changing the flag and he airily pronounced that it would be ‘lots and lots, we will need more material’ grin, grin. And then proceeded to speak in tongues at length before he could be asked again. Which she did but you could hardly hear her. I really dislike him intensely. Why does he really want to change the flag?

        • Anne 3.2.2.1
          22 June 2015 at 10:30 am

          He wants to change the flag cos he wants to be remembered for being the prime minister who “changed the flag”. That simple and self-centred which is why he’s ignoring the fact 70-75% of the population are happy with the current flag.

          Prediction: the final cost of changing the flag will be $50 million plus because he wants it so badly. Who gives a tinker’s cuss about poor, hungry kids and people living in cars? Not John Key.

        • Draco T Bastard 3.2.2.2
          22 June 2015 at 10:34 am

          Why does he really want to change the flag?

          It’s a nice, calming diversion that can be rolled out whenever the government has something to hide.

          • Anne 3.2.2.2.1
            22 June 2015 at 11:54 am

            It’s a nice, calming diversion that can be rolled out whenever the government has something to hide.

            Agree with that too. And talking about agreeing, for the second week in a row I find myself ‘agreeing’ with something Matthew Hooton has said on RNZ political spot.

            He bemoaned (not quite the right word) the lack of political opposition to the govt.’s current habit of lying about and mishandling of various controversies. As an example he gave the Murray McCully shenanigans over the Saudi sheep scandal and suggested that Labour should have succeeded in having him sacked by now. I agree. Why are Labour letting this govt. get away with so much downright corrupt behaviour? Why are they not screaming their heads off? What is the matter with them? Are they too timid or are they being given bad advice?

            I know Phil Twyford has done well but that’s not enough. Remember the continuous hollering coming from National in the last term of the Labour govt. often over inconsequential matters? It worked. So why isn’t Labour pulling out all stops to do the same?

            • Draco T Bastard 3.2.2.2.1.1
              22 June 2015 at 11:28 pm

              Remember the continuous hollering coming from National in the last term of the Labour govt. often over inconsequential matters? It worked. So why isn’t Labour pulling out all stops to do the same?

              Yep. All the Left parties need a hundred or so people reading the news/social media etc, knocking around a few ideas and then getting the attack lines out ASAP. There shouldn’t be 24 hours before there’s a response but about half an hour.

              It’s not even hard as the communication lines are open and in place 24/7 now.

          • JanM 3.2.2.2.2
            22 June 2015 at 1:01 pm

            Exactly – ‘bread and circuses’

        • Clemgeopin 3.2.2.3
          22 June 2015 at 6:42 pm

          “Why does he really want to change the flag?”

          I suspect the real reason is NOT that he wants to change the flag, but he wants this flag debate as a DISTRACTION from everything else. The debate not only marginalises his government’s inefficiency and misdeeds, it fills hours and hours of time and space in the media away from other social and economic issues, as well as divides the people. It is a cunning plan.

  4. Charles 4
    22 June 2015 at 8:58 am

    Has John finished his cycleway yet, and if so, who is he intending to sell it to?

    Everyone knows that state assets, once built by locals, are more effectively run by private interests. Shouldn’t be too hard to run a cycleway. All that’s required is an admin staff of about 130, a multi-story office building in Manila, 146 consultants, a coffee machine, 80 merino sheep, and $2b of NZ government funds to prop it up till it gets started. I estimate income from increased tourism to be about $450.

    Will it be a part of ongoing state asset sales in his next (imagined) term?

    • halfcrown 4.1
      22 June 2015 at 9:26 am

      Ha I like it.

      But you forgot to mention the hair straighteners in the toilets. Also remember the Labour party are not really blameless over the merino sheep

    • wyndham 4.2
      22 June 2015 at 9:38 am

      Charles, your cynicism has reached a disturbing level. Trouble is I find myself in total agreement so where does that leave me ?!

      • Charles 4.2.1
        22 June 2015 at 9:47 am

        There is nothing more that I can do to help me help you, than push myself further to the edge.

    • b waghorn 4.3
      22 June 2015 at 10:14 am

      I reckon the one to watch if god help us key gets elected again is they sale of all those new dairy farms, they would have to be worth 20 mill each.

    • Sabine 4.4
      22 June 2015 at 10:23 am

      the income of 450$ is that before or after tax?
      and will all the people working on site be from Winz?

  5. Charles 5
    22 June 2015 at 9:46 am

    Crikey, the roastbusters case is catapaulted back into the news. Further investigations? Charges laid? Oh no no hohoho. Turns out Mediaworks is settling with John Tamihere. Tamihere’s reputation as a stand-up guy is worth about $620K, apparently. In my opinion, whenever I’ve seen him around town, he never looked more than 1K, but shopping for groceries does that to the best of us. In the grey light of the New World tinned foods aisle, everyone looks depressed.

    Today Mediaworks will publicly apologise. Long-time followers and frequent callers of the case will need kava on-hand and a sturdy seat when that happens.

    Just clicking back through the associated stories, I found this older one, of the Mediaworks management motivations behind what happened. Read some of the reasoning in the emails….

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11196245

    Ties in nicely with the reasoning behind the precurser publication and various incarnations of the The Standard – as posted last night here by the sysop. Commercial news “for the public good” is bought and sold.

  6. Clemgeopin 6
    22 June 2015 at 11:59 am

    “Sorry if I caused any offence to anyone. I hope I will stay married when my husband will land and hear what I did”

    Full details here:
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/21/israeli-politician-wife-tweets-racist-obama-joke

    Also twitter:
    https://twitter.com/JudyMozes/status/612658631163650048

  7. Gangnam Style 7
    22 June 2015 at 12:11 pm

    Can someone help this guy? http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11469049 “After 47 years of living in New Zealand, a Whangarei man only recently learned he is not a citizen when his employer terminated his contract due to his “immigration status”.

    Graeme Watson – who went to school here, got married, obtained driving and gun licences, became a registered counsellor and worked in Government-provided health services – said he might joke about being a “nobody”, a stateless person in his own country, but “it’s a bloody nightmare”.

    Two months ago Mr Watson lost his job because of his “immigration status” , after being employed with a private mental health provider for only five weeks. He was paid for only two of those weeks; the nationwide company telling him his outstanding wages were frozen because he may have worked “illegally”, he said. Before then he had worked for more than four years with Northland District Health Board.

    • weka 7.1
      22 June 2015 at 1:57 pm

      Presumably if he went to school here there’d be a record of that. Plus his paren’t immigration if they were living here.

      The article doesn’t say how old he was when he immigrated though.

    • JanM 7.2
      22 June 2015 at 3:08 pm

      Tell him to contact the Community Law Centre in Whangarei. The phone number for the main office is 09 437 7535. They should be able to offer free legal assistance.
      This employer is just trying him on, and there’s plenty examples of that sort of behaviour among the private groups that access government money for offering public services – some of them are quite big names – such wickedness!

  8. Tracey 8
    22 June 2015 at 2:36 pm

    The people DO get it

    “”We need to fight austerity,” she says. “The whole of Europe, not just Greece. Nations can’t live under these conditions.”

    Austerity has left her country ravaged by unemployment and many remaining wages below the poverty line, she says. Money that comes into Greece leaves straight away, back into the pockets of its creditors.

    “These are war conditions.”

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/69590317/greek-crisis-that-never-quite-happens-may-finally-happen

    • Colonial Rawshark 8.1
      22 June 2015 at 2:50 pm

      Subjugating an entire people and an entire country using economics and finance, instead of military force.

  9. Skinny 9
    22 June 2015 at 2:55 pm

    Judy… Judy… Judy doll just when you thought your career was back on track. Your in a real bit of bother now. We know exactly what has been going on here and it stinks like rotting milk in the sun.

    It’s no good threatening people and trying to bully them, so tell your offsider New Zealand isn’t some banana republic, actually tell him he is Peking duck and he is going to be served on a plate. Honestly trying to hide massive amounts of Kauri movements out of our ports it is impossible not to leave a trace. Yes yes all will be explained. My advice do an immediate Sabin or ‘you will be fired.’

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/276553/call-for-inquiry-into-swamp-kauri-exports

  10. Charles 10
    22 June 2015 at 3:48 pm

    White people can’t be terrorists

    Keith Locke got me thinking about terrorism, or more specifically, what it might actually be, after he said that if you’re white and killing people, you can’t be a terrorist. I don’t agree, which means I disagree with all kinds of famous smart people. That’s the beauty of opinion.

    http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2015/06/22/when-is-a-terrorist-not-a-terrorist/

    There are echoes of the “white people are inherently racist” idea in his words, a peripheral ideology in itself. The obvious rebuttal is that the various factions of the Irish war for Independent government (is that still the claim?) is also run by some really white people – they don’t specifically hire-in Africans to do the dirty work – although they’ll take money and guns from just about anyone. Locke’s comments were motivated by the recent Charleston shootings, where a young white bloke with a serious beef against people whose skin colour wasn’t the same as his, shot-up a church congregation. Ten people were shot, nine people died, including a state senator.

    Terror, it is said, is a mental state that is brought on by a sudden threat, causing the fight-or-flight response in the human brain, and may include “Freezing up” or “hiding”. It is also defined as the act of a legitimate state or power to suppress dissention. The FBI defines terrorism as:

    “…the unlawful use of force or violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives.”

    The FBI say they are more concerned with examining the method, over the motivation. Dylann Roof wasn’t very organised. There is dispute over where he got a gun, which gun he used, or even if there were two. He’d been planning for 6 months, apparently, yet the existence of white supremacy groups that he was associated with wasn’t enough to motivate his actions by itself. Politics wasn’t enough. Vague organisational support wasn’t enough. Going on what they know, the FBI say he wasn’t a terrorist.

    If everyone who causes or uses terror is a terrorist, then,

    The Father who perpetrates domestic violence is a terrorist.
    The Mother who emotionally abuses her child is a terrorist.
    The Bad-Ass who is feared for his violence in local neighbourhood is a terrorist.
    The government department that violently changes policy, causing sudden shock and terror in people effected, is a terrorist organisation.

    Which they are clearly not. They may or may not have all committed serious crimes, with descriptions that may or may not already exist in legislated acts, but that’s as far as it goes. I don’t think there is anything to be gained by legitimising “Lone Wolf Terrorist” as a term, for above reasons. It doesn’t add anything real to the reasons why crimes against humanity occur. What it looks like to me is that Keith Locke is trying to say that racism is deadly. Who’d argue with that? If anything, the labelling of Dylann Roof’s crime as a hate crime, or an act of racism, would do more to have people inspect how covert and institutionalised racism occurs, and when, who or what drives it, than using another colloquial term that takes a step away from the serious nature of racism.

    Terror and terrorism are subjective and emotive terms – as is the word violence – and it is difficult to conclusively measure until a large group is effected and a series of acts form a trend of intent. Usually you could look back on the internal struggles or civil war of a country and say, “Ah yes, now we can see how that group changed from a peasant uprising, to a militia, to a fledgling political group and now to a terrorist/organised criminal group”. One person acting alone, with no previous acts to form a trend, we can’t measure much terrorism, just the act itself. Organise a group into crashing two planes into an American skyscraper and make videos to support that action, and you’re a terrorist. Breed nastiness inside yourself and go on a shooting spree – you’re just a killer.

    Now here is where the line starts to blur: You could say, “Hey but wait, whitey has been killing darker folks since forever, that’s the trend, that’s what the culture covertly, openly and politically encourages – all whites are terrorists!” And you’d have a good argument. Culture, or culture clashes, play an important part in terrorism. The World Trade Centre wasn’t just a couple of tall buildings – they were symbols of a culture. The church Dylann Roof shot-up wasn’t just a church, it was a symbol of the civil rights movement – a symbol of a culture. And you could also point out that there are plenty of instances throughout history where a blind-eye is turned by the more powerful party in a conflict: allowing peripheral war crimes to occur inside a larger warzone, where lawless groups do things that save the more powerful party from having to “get dirty” by addressing it themselves. You could also say that the FBI are part of the racist establishment.

    Another definition of terrorism is a political act that is made to suppress opposition – in non-combatants.

    So did Dylann Roof wipe-out or suppress opposition to his “political beliefs” with his act? What about in non-combatants? Is a state senator a non-combatant in civil rights? Is anyone a non-combatant when it comes to racism and civil rights? If anything, he only made opposition stronger. Has he strengthened white supremacy? If the ruling class of America are conclusively racists, has he improved their position, their power, or extended their ideology? Not one bit. Obama didn’t know Roof was going to shoot people (well I hope he didn’t!), and didn’t need him to justify making changes to gun laws which, if we now create a conspiracy, “would lead an armed State to freely kill disarmed civil rights advocates”. Is anyone saying, “If Dylann can do this we might as just accept that killing people is condoned by popular agreement and make it legal.”? Fear and terror may have increased, momentarily, but strong political opposition remains – evidenced by outrage and debate over him being a terrorist, or not. Using that definition, you might also say that whatever the USA are fighting now with their War on Terror, the terrorists lost a long time ago.

    So now our definition of terrorism also includes:

    Anyone who acts lawlessly and causes terror by utilising/manipulating the neglect of the State
    Anyone who violently opposes the State, rules of establishment, culture, or more powerful party, causing terror – armed or not.
    Any weaker smaller party that violently opposes the more powerful party or culture, causing terror.
    Any larger more powerful party that violently opposes the weaker smaller party or culture, causing terror.
    Anyone that does anything to so badly scare other people, that those people feel oppressed and divorced from their personal autonomy.
    White people.
    Any other people with skin.

    Pretty soon, everyone’s a terrorist, or a potential terrorist, which makes the word itself pretty pointless. However terrified people may be, Dylann Roof hasn’t single-handedly suppressed political opposition in non-combatants, or otherwise. The only thing we can be sure of is that racism is deadly, people hate each other for some strange reasons, those reasons are supported by a culture, and people die because of it.

    So did we arrive at what terrorism is? Maybe. We might have brushed past part of it: People can be made to feel terror. Political idealists want things their own way, and people not getting what they want makes them panic and become terrified of loss of the power to act, but, does the thought oppress them to the extent that they are divorced from their autonomy? I would argue that if someone more powerful than you consistently breaks agreements between you, agreements constructed by them, primarily for their own gain, and calls you a terrorist because you try to stop them hurting your people, grabbing more of your stuff, or increasing their claim of ownership over an environment that can’t be owned (without an accompanying culture of hereditary rights), their personal autonomy is not and never was threatened and you might be a freedom fighter, not a terrorist. Keith Locke might agree with me.

    • Tim 10.1
      22 June 2015 at 7:29 pm

      Dylan Roof is clearly a terrorist by the FBI’s own definition which is admittedly broad. Possibilities are either that it was either legally OR politically expedient for the FBI not to refer to him as such. Trouble is that not calling him a terrorist does give a lot of leeway to think that the reason he’s not called one is that he’s white

  11. Barbara 11
    22 June 2015 at 4:48 pm

    Where are the post writers of The Standard today -or yesterday or the day before – not writing about the new law about to be passed – the Cyber Bullying Law which is aimed at shutting down free speech and could censor writers on this blog site for just having opinions which may cause “harm or emotional distress” to the person they are writing about. Why has The Standard itself not bothered to make more of a fuss and bringing it to the forefront and emphasising the seriousness of it. It could close down this blogsite – its a nasty piece of legislation and shot full of holes – and aimed at journalists and blog writer’s like yourself in the guise of protecting vulnerable teenagers being bullied on their social networks. The law is vague, the net is so wide it will eventually include all of us who welcome free speech and critical thinking. It is being passed in urgency in the next couple of days. Obviously there has been no mention in the MSM and probably will be passed in the dead of night while we sheeples are sleeping. Lisa Owen quizzed Amy Adams about this on The Nation last Saturday and Sunday and Lisa gave Amy Adams plenty of examples where prosecutions could happen – satirical cartoons, policital commentary and blog writers etc and Adams couldn’t give an assurance as to the guidelines as to how this law would work – people will have to settle it in court by a case by case basis. Its censureship plain and obvious.

    For the first time ever I think we are slowly being led into a world where free speech is going to disappear and we are all too dim witted to seeing it happening before our eyes. What’s worse knowing about it or not knowing about – either way we are all screwed.

    • Draco T Bastard 12.1
      22 June 2015 at 11:34 pm

      Air New Zealand’s chief operations officer Bruce Parton said the airline had been exploring opportunities for some time to secure a solid future for Safe Air.

      I think being owned by AirNZ would be a fairly solid future so what did he actually mean?

  13. Gael 13
    22 June 2015 at 5:17 pm

    I am really enjoying reading this forum since the demise of Campbell Live, nothing left on tv that isn’t Nat spin. Not sure if many you listened to Kim Hill on Saturday (cept Tracey) – esp Ross Ashcroft interview (http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/saturday/audio/201759223/ross-ashcroft-economics-and-europe).

    This led me to his documentary The four horsemen doco on you tube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fbvquHSPJU 1.38hrs

    This seems to explain most of what is going on now here in NZ under Nat given questions raised here yesterday and our ever expanding debt – so hard to believe we were in the black a few weeks before the 2008 election now $90b in the hole. What Labour might do about this (if anything) and is Ross’s ideas just conspiracy theory or coming chaos theory? Apols if this is old topic for you but I would be interested in your feedback and whether nesara is some kind of option? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NESARA ??

    • Draco T Bastard 13.1
      22 June 2015 at 11:56 pm

      and returning to a bimetallic currency, would result in 0% inflation and a more stable economy.

      Nope, it’s a load of bollocks. Metallic currencies have never worked as there just isn’t enough of the metals available to maintain enough currency for the services available especially after the rich have syphoned them all up. This gives a continual deflationary pressure almost always resulting in a recession or depression. The 19th century, marked in it’s use of the Gold Standard is also noted for the fact that most of the time the economy was in recession.

      A fiat currency, as we have now, is fine but it needs strict rules about the creation of money and credit. Strict that we presently don’t have. In fact, we allow private banks to make money every time they make a loan. This results in massive inflation and, due to the interest, the fact that those loans can’t actually be paid back. In fact, paying them back would result in a recession or more probably a depression as it would drastically reduce the amount of money in circulation.

      For other ideas look to:

      1. Positive Money
      2. Modern Monetary Theory
      3. The Chicago plan
      4. Real Monetary Reform.

  14. Clemgeopin 14
    22 June 2015 at 5:40 pm

    Colin Craig & his wife’s media statement/interview with Q and A today : Watch Video here:

    http://www.radiolive.co.nz/WATCH-Colin-Craig-admits-inappropriate-conduct-with-Rachel-MacGregor/tabid/504/articleID/88493/Default.aspx

  15. rob 15
    22 June 2015 at 6:28 pm

    why can’t we get rid of this govt? i am at my wits end (as Nan would say) and me!
    what the hell is it going to take?
    if the current lies and BS get accepted then maybe labour need to BS and lie just to be the norm?
    if you allow 50-60 thousand immigrants a yr. it must help you’re voter base? yes!

    • Ron 15.1
      22 June 2015 at 10:11 pm

      It’s not ‘we’ that gets rid of governments. It’s the public and so far they seem happy with National. Maybe what needs to happen is to change the opposition parties to reflect what the majority of New Zealanders want in a government. I sometimes despair that so many people keep up with the meme that if only opposition parties were more leftwing they would triumph at the polls. It is not going to happen. What is more likely is that either Greens or NZ First (or both) will embrace National and cement a Rightwing government in power for many many years.

      why can’t we get rid of this govt?

  16. Smilin 16
    22 June 2015 at 6:44 pm

    Austerity is the dirtiest word of the now
    It has been constructed not by Bill Gates and others who actually have wealth out of something people can use even though it survives on its ridiculously insane share price and africa and other nations who they indirectly keep poor so the Austerity sucking monetarist leeches can keep lying to the world about the corruption in every facet of banking starting with the valueless commodity money itself which the poor pay for not the rich
    That’s why there will always be the poverty on a mass scale administered by souless power brokers like Key who has lowered the intelligence of this nation just by being here
    He has nothing but a hangmans noose for this country

  17. Penny Bright 17
    22 June 2015 at 8:26 pm

    What are the verified conditions of live animal exports from New Zealand?

    Some Australian information on Australian live export ships (dated March 2013).
    ——————————————————–
    Revealed: The real conditions on live export ships

    Tasmanian Times,
    29 March, 2013

    From Dr Simpson’s submission – overstocked cattle covered in excrement

    FOR THE FIRST TIME, THE REAL CONDITIONS ON LIVE EXPORT SHIPS HAS BEEN MADE PUBLIC …

    Last August, the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry (DAFF) called for submissions into the operation of the Australian Standards for the Export of Livestock. 23 submissions have been published on the DAFF website (here):

    http://www.daff.gov.au/animal-plant-health/welfare/export-trade/submissions_to_the_review_of_australian_standards_for_the_export_of_livestock_and_the_livestock_export_standards_advisory_group

    One submission in particular has become especially public and has ‘gone viral’ within the animal advocacy community. The document was submitted by Dr Lynn Simpson, a shipboard veterinarian of 13 years experience, who had sailed on 57 ‘long and extra long haul’ voyages.

    It is anyone’s guess why it has taken Dr Simpson such a long time to come forward about the truly atrocious conditions faced by animals on live export ships on voyages that can be as long as 41 days, or almost 6 weeks, but her submission documents, and photographs, the desperate living conditions and misery the animals must endure for many weeks on these old Third World ships.

    Dr Simpson’s submission can be found here:

    http://www.daff.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0008/2253077/aav6.pdf
    The key issues identified in the submission include:

    • Hard deck, ‘cleated’ and bitumised flooring, totally unsuitable for animals who cannot or will not lie down on these surfaces, particularly when they are covered in excrement, compounded by insufficient cleaning and bedding, especially appalling on voyages of up to 6 weeks

    • Overstocking in pens, meaning the animals cannot all lie down at once

    • Animals who meet the ‘rejection criteria’ (ill and unfit animals) being loaded regardless, blind, lame, or otherwise ill or diseased

    • Animals who do not meet the requirements of the importing country (for example, the voyage of the M/V Barkly Pearl from Geraldton to Mauritius on which cattle certified by an Australian veterinarian and cattle specialist as not being pregnant gave birth to calves on the ship and many more were found to be pregnant upon arrival in Mauritius, where it is unlawful to slaughter pregnant animals)

    • Cattle with bleeding horn stumps being loaded

    • Cattle far too heavy being loaded who then developed severe leg injuries from the shipboard conditions; other animals suffering from footrot and injuries compounded by septicaemia from being mired in urine and excrement for weeks

    • Open, faulty drains pouring urine and excrement from animals on higher decks onto animals below

    • Animals being unable to cool themselves because they are covered in faeces, despite the soaring temperatures in the northern hemisphere

    • Inability to properly check the animals’ health and welfare because of overstocking, which also led to smothering of some animals

    • Insufficient veterinary supplies to treat animals, including humane killing devices

    • Unshorn sheep, whose condition could not be checked because of the thickness of their fleeces and the stocking densities

    • High ammonia levels and suboptimal ventilation, causing not only a hazard to ship personnel, but especially to the animals, who live in this environment for long weeks on end, 24/7. This can cause severe eye irritation and pneumonia

    • And possibly worst of all, depriving the animals of feed and water for 48 hours of more in the heat of the Middle East to meet trade (weight restrictions) requirements, and in circumstances where they could be further delayed by transports in the destination country.
    ………

  18. Reddelusion 18
    22 June 2015 at 9:02 pm

    Gael Our govt debt to gdp is not that bad relative to other OECD countries, our total net debt including forgieners that owe us money is about 58pc, not earth shattering either , while our banks now raise more capital locally than offshore due to increased savings. our economy is more diverse than ever, still to reliant on ag but better than 20 years ago, evidenced in that short term collapse in milk price has not sent us into recession, . Let me also remind you Gael there has been a gfc plus chc earthquake of which national kept the tap on to support chc and the vulnerable. part of the reason our govt debt has grown is the result of labours middle class welfare bribes to hold onto power in regard to student loans and welfare for families which national did not roll back. if national where hard right and implemented austerity in regard to labours bribes, chc and Gfc then the likes of yourselves and rob would really have something to bleat about

    • b waghorn 18.1
      22 June 2015 at 9:08 pm

      You forgot to mention the cost of national s bribery of the wealthy with that tax cut .

    • dv 18.2
      22 June 2015 at 9:09 pm

      Hey Red missed the Tax cuts.
      Snap BW

      And the SCF bail out

    • ropata 18.3
      22 June 2015 at 9:17 pm

      Congratulations to National for handing out tax cuts and capital gains windfalls to their mates while raising GST and exploiting disaster capitalism. How Bill English managed to make our debt to GDP worse while selling off public assets was truly a wonderful trick. I am sure that your corporate sponsors are pleased.

  19. Penny Bright 19
    22 June 2015 at 9:43 pm

    Jane Burgermeister is the gutsy Irish/ Austrian investigative journalist who helped expose the ‘Swine flu scam’ in 2009.

    Here is her latest post on what’s happening in Greece:

    GREXIT IS NOW ALMOST INEVITABLE AS SYRIZA MPS REVOLT OVER ILLEGAL DEBT

    by Jane Burgermeister

    *49 SYRIZA MPS CALL FOR GREEK DEBT TO DECLARED ILLEGAL BY PARLIAMENT

    *SYRIZA MPS TABLED MOTION FOR ICELANDIC STYLE DEFAULT AND THE REINTRODUCTION OF DRACHMA AS SOUVEREIGN MONEY

    *NATIONAL EMERGENCY FUEL PLANS HAS BEEN ACTIVATED FOR A GREXIT

    *SYRIZA REVOLT MAY SIDELINE ANY DEAL TSIPRAS HAMMERS OUT IN BRUSSELS WITH TROIKA

    49 Syriza MPs have called for a report designating the national debt as illegal to be considered by Parliament.

    The report by the Greek Debt Truth Commission undermines the case for paying any interest on Greece’s fractional reserve, banker-engineered debt.

    http://www.heise.de/tp/artikel/45/45240/1.html

    http://www.iefimerida.gr/news/212848/ntrimpla-syriza-se-tsipra-49-voyleytes-kaloyn-tin-kyvernisi-na-parei-thesi-sti-voyli-gia

    The refusal of Syriza MPs to support any more fraudulent bankster austerity to pay interest for a loan which was never made may mean that Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras cannot get enough parliamentary support for any deal he makes with eurozone leaders today at an emergency summit in Brussels.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/11673989/Syriza-Left-demands-Icelandic-default-as-Greek-defiance-stiffens.html

    A deal by Tsipras with the Troika will, anyway, only postpone the inevitable collapse and default of Greece under an unsustainable burden of fractional reserve banking debt.

    In a sign of the unreality that continues to haunt Brussels as the continent lurches from one disaster to the next, no plans have been announced by the European Commission, the European Parliament or any German or French politicians to switch over the money creation system in the eurozone from private banks to government banks.

    This, in spite of the fact the entire eurozone is rapidly unravelling, hurtling towards financial meltdown and social upheavel. This, in spite of the fact, the need for souvereign money is now openly discussed in the mainstream media.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/9623863/IMFs-epic-plan-to-conjure-away-debt-and-dethrone-bankers.html

    The move by Syrixa MPs to have the Greek national debt declared an illegal fraud, and default comes amid rumours that Syriza has prepared for an emergency exit of Greece from the eurozone.

    Greece has activated a national emergency plan for fuel.

    It is in the interests of the European Commission, Germany and France to get back in touch with reality and help Greece switch over in an orderly switch manner to the Drachma. The alternative could be social upheaval, a staged Colour Revolution and even an orchestrated Ebola outbreak in Greece.

    The European Commission, Parliament and German and French politicians have to chose between the private banks and Europe. The private banks are destroying Europe. And they must chose now or the choice will be taken from them by the people, fed up with the corruption, fraud and lies of the politicians.

    http://www.iefimerida.gr/news/212779/national-emergency-plan-fuels-enacted-case-grexitEMERGENCY FUEL PLANS HAS BEEN ACTIVATED FOR A GREXIT

    *SYRIZA REVOLT MAY SIDELINE ANY DEAL TSIPRAS HAMMERS OUT IN BRUSSELS WITH TROIKA

    49 Syriza MPs have called for a report designating the national debt as illegal to be considered by Parliament.

    The report by the Greek Debt Truth Commission undermines the case for paying any interest on Greece’s fractional reserve, banker-engineered debt.

    http://www.heise.de/tp/artikel/45/45240/1.html

    http://www.iefimerida.gr/news/212848/ntrimpla-syriza-se-tsipra-49-voyleytes-kaloyn-tin-kyvernisi-na-parei-thesi-sti-voyli-gia

    The refusal of Syriza MPs to support any more fraudulent bankster austerity to pay interest for a loan which was never made may mean that Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras cannot get enough parliamentary support for any deal he makes with eurozone leaders today at an emergency summit in Brussels.

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/22/greek-debt-crisis-tsipras-offer-is-welcomed-as-good-basis-for-progress

    In an Open Letter to the parliament on June 19th, the 49 MPs Syriza said that Greeks are not responsible for the debt, the debt is illegitimate and private French and German banks are the beneficiaries of the public debt crisis in Greece.

    Syriza MPs also plan to table a motion for an Icelandic style default and the establishment of a souverign central bank.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/11673989/Syriza-Left-demands-Icelandic-default-as-Greek-defiance-stiffens.html

    The move by Syrixa MPs to have the Greek national debt declared an illegal fraud, and default comes amid rumours that Syriza has prepared for an emergency exit of Greece from the eurozone.

    Greece has activated a national emergency plan for fuel.

    It is in the interests of the European Commission, Germany and France to get back in touch with reality and help Greece switch over in an orderly switch manner to the Drachma. The alternative could be social upheaval, a staged Colour Revolution and even an orchestrated Ebola outbreak in Greece.

    The European Commission, Parliament and German and French politicians have to chose between the private banks and Europe. The private banks are destroying Europe. And they must chose now or the choice will be taken from them by the people, fed up with the corruption, fraud and lies of the politicians.

    http://www.iefimerida.gr/news/212779/national-emergency-plan-fuels-enacted-case-grexit

    [Penny, can you please edit these missives before posting? It’s so long it’s probably not going to get read anyway and it’s not helping that you’ve repeated some of the quotes and the associated links (I’ve edited out a couple). Cheers. TRP]

  20. Reddelusion 20
    22 June 2015 at 9:45 pm

    And tax cuts, happy, kept money circulating to shore up demand during GFC better than ending up in govt hands where 30 cents is lost in every dollar

    Why do you people get so exercised on who owns and asset or a firm, its what the firm or asset Produces that is important and how efficiently it does for the good of the economy as a whole. Ownership, control and rights to residual cash flow is sort of irrelevant, be a firm employee owned, coop, state owned, owned by capital funders etc . If you can’t take it away how relevant is it really. nearly every academic study shows privatisation adds value and improves productivity and thus a benefit to the economy as a whole , The firm or asset is unhindered as a govt play thing. its also not as government give the asset away they receive consideration that reflects present value of future cash flow of those assets in consideration ti invest anew , oh unless left leaning politician wish to devalue those asset for their own selfish ends

    • millsy 20.1
      23 June 2015 at 12:52 am

      “And tax cuts, happy, kept money circulating to shore up demand during GFC better than ending up in govt hands where 30 cents is lost in every dollar”

      So health, education and state housing dont matter to you?

    • The Chairman 20.2
      23 June 2015 at 2:43 pm

      Offshore ownership of assets robs us of the fiscal return, the local resource being capitalized, and local control, thus the opportunity to own and control our own future.

      It’s good management that adds value and improves productivity. Managerial expertise and experience can be acquired without the need to privatize.

      Additionally, the more assets the state owns and capitalizes from (which broadens and increases their revenue stream) the less they are required to tax us going forward.

  21. Reddelusion 21
    23 June 2015 at 7:02 am

    Silly statement Millsay all nz governments past and presence spend billion in these areas, dollars are not the issue, outcomes are of which at least national has the guts to address, not throwing more of others people money at a problem, never worked, never will

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