Open mike 23/10/2024

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, October 23rd, 2024 - 48 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:


Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

48 comments on “Open mike 23/10/2024 ”

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  1. Dennis Frank 1
    23 October 2024 at 7:19 am

    The govt seems to think Wellington is absolutely positively stuffed, so it's infiltrating an agent into the council to deliver some tlc:

    "The point of having a Crown observer is to assist the council in managing these issues as they redevelop their long-term plan, for the benefit of Wellington ratepayers," Brown said. Brown said unlike a Commissioner, the observer would not have any powers to direct council or make decisions.

    It would be able to provide guidance and advice, and then make recommendations. The mayor and councillors remain responsible for the decisions they make. https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/531581/will-the-wellington-city-council-intervention-set-a-precedent

    Like a nursemaid, then. Back when Key was PM he made headlines by pointing out that Wellington was dying – inexplicably failing to explain that it was doing so absolutely and positively. So current council shenanigans must be death throes, or perhaps the death rattle. We really need msm to be present at council meetings to report the whys and wherefores of this ongoing medical saga.

  2. dv 2
    23 October 2024 at 7:46 am

    Of course the NATZ know what a shambles look like,

    THEY have been LOOKING IN THE MIRROR.

  3. gsays 3
    23 October 2024 at 8:23 am

    Really excited about the 'stop work' meeting today.

    To see the numbers, diversity and enthusiasm of the attendees.

    Any Standardistas at the Palmy meeting feel free to make urself known.

    I'm grey haired, 180cms and will be wearing a yellow and black Hawaiian shirt.

  4. Macro 4
    23 October 2024 at 8:48 am

    I've been wondering just what "CoC" actually stands for.

    Coalition of Chaos?

    Coalition of Clowns?

    Coalition of Contraction?

    Coalition of Country gentlemen?*

    Coalition of Cuts

    Any other suggestions gratefully appreciated.

    *Hat tip to W Churchill

    • Tiger Mountain 4.1
      23 October 2024 at 8:54 am

      Beats me, but sounds appropriate when pronounced as “cock”…

    • Dennis Frank 4.2
      23 October 2024 at 8:57 am

      I think you captured the essence of it with that third option. A contracting economy seems to be forcing young aspiring kiwis to head for Oz. Nothing new, really.

      Liam Dann discussed it here: https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/saturday/audio/2018960476/liam-dann-on-nz-s-brain-drain

      Recent figures show 81,200 Kiwis left New Zealand long-term since the start of the year, in the biggest brain drain we've seen in decades. So how concerning is this for our economy?

      Gen Z is where this action is evident, apparently. The CoC was touting itself as the solution to Labour's malaise, got into power on that basis, and a year on the situation has worsened – whereas those who put them into power expected improvement!

      If you google the issue you get reminders of all the other years we've seen the same thing happening so no wonder everyone gets blasé about it.

      • Macro 4.2.1
        23 October 2024 at 9:39 am

        If you google the issue you get reminders of all the other years we've seen the same thing happening..

        Yes I know very well from first hand experience what you are saying here. My own family left in 2010 under the Key Govt for much the same reasons as that being perpetuated by this – but even more severe now than then. Am heading off soon for Xmas as this will be the first time in 14 years we have all been together as family. They are now Aussie citizens and won't be coming back. That's parents with 2 Master's degrees in Health and Community Development. Their children engineers and vets. I remember with irony the Nat Govt election ad in 2008 – "Stop waving Goodbye to your Loved ones!" Lying Bastards. Never voted Nats and never will.

        • tWig 4.2.1.1
          23 October 2024 at 5:44 pm

          That's the complete irony of it all. Labour/lw goverments build up the economy, mostly running pretty smoothly. Nats/rw stand up before the elections shouting, 'Only us party of business people can truly run the economy'. Economy retracts under them, forcing a change of government. Repeat.

          This same pattern has been pointed out by The Guardian for the UK. The Labour Party needs to put numbers in front of the electorate every time the CoC crows about any so-called financial improvement.

          As in, 'we always said interest rates would go down within 18 months. Our budget didn't propose to borrow as much as this government has, to fund tax cuts to landlords and to tobacco companies'.

          You have to challenge the Nats’ economic high-ground bullshit every time it comes up.

    • bwaghorn 4.3
      23 October 2024 at 11:46 am

      Corruption of country

    • Mike the Lefty 4.4
      23 October 2024 at 2:38 pm

      Coalition of….. (another word that starts with "c" but is a bit inappropriate to write here).

      • Macro 4.4.1
        23 October 2024 at 4:03 pm

        Country gentleman ? with the emphasis on the first syllable .

        W Churchill once referred to a Member as a "country gentlemen"

      • Anne 4.4.2
        23 October 2024 at 4:49 pm

        I was tempted to add it to Incognito's contribution @ 4.1.1 but didn't for same reason.

    • Doogs 4.5
      24 October 2024 at 7:27 am

      Coagulation of Charlatans?

  5. Bearded Git 5
    23 October 2024 at 9:34 am

    The COC relied on public submissions to justify its new tougher 3-Strikes law-see No Right Turn in sidebar.

    It turns out that 450 of the 700 odd submissions received in support were cut and pasted by submitters from the Sensible Sentencing submission. Clearly the SS emailed their supporters explaining how to do this.

    It also turns out that the select committee process has been circumvented as explained by Duncan Webb in the audio below-so much for democracy.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/2018960986/concern-raised-about-minister-s-3-strike-bill-feedback

  6. ianmac 6
    23 October 2024 at 9:44 am

    Brown pissing on Wellington for not borrowing for water infrastructure but using Rate payers money. Most C ouncils are using Ratepayers money.

    Simmonds trying to stop Otago from publishing their Statuary responsibility re their water consultation with the Community.

    Bayley lying to the House and to Luxon about his drunken abuse and how he made return visits to harass the worker to get him to go for a beer with him after his initial abuse.

    Peters defying and mocking the Speaker.

    A Minister allowing an organised email program from Family First, to dictate the dodgy new Three Strikes Law. The Minister says she has no interest in what the Select committee has to say bout the 3 Strikes.

    A PM who reckons that he has special inside knowledge on Economics. (He knows better than Economists?) Ha Ha Ha!

    We are so lucky to have PM Luxon to manage every little irritant and answer swiftly and concisely questions in the House. HA!

    • Bearded Git 6.1
      23 October 2024 at 10:36 am

      Simeon Brown is dumb and out of control. Luxon just lets him get on with it.

      The next election is going to be fascinating-a stark choice indeed.

      My worry is that Luxon will simply keep repeating "Hipkins halved Labour's vote last time, he's a loser" (probably holding a hand-formed L-shape in front of his face smiley) and the electorate will listen and vote COC.

  7. Tiger Mountain 7
    23 October 2024 at 10:11 am

    The mysterious case of the withdrawn email regarding Mr Bayly…
    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/531456/bayly-complaint-email-disappeared-from-labour-mp-s-inbox

    Even my home computer has a certain period to recall a sent email, but, the question here is who authorised this occurring at Parliament?

    • lprent 7.1
      23 October 2024 at 10:38 am

      It does because that is part of the e-mail protocol ever since RFC822 (the first protocol standard). Effectively there is a header email you can send to the targets to tell the email server to delete it. However that has effectively been unused for decades because the email network has too many intermediate stages these days. It you ever have a look at the header of a email you can see the numbers of jumps between multiple email servers before it strikes the destination address.

      It mostly just works inside a single mail server like a enterprise main server system using something like Microsoft Exchange.

      I doubt that recall is the case that about why this one disappeared.

      However in this case from your link.

      Political parties received an email on Friday from the business worker who has complained about the behaviour of the Commerce and Small Business Minister on a recent ministerial visit.

      When the staffer queried this with Parliament’s IT staff, they were told it was withdrawn because it was flagged as spam, but it had subsequently been reinstated on Monday.

      That is a different story. That is on a single receiving (ie not sending) mail server where there are multiple recipients. One or more of the recipients tagged the e-mail as being spam. So one or more MPs tagged the e-mail as spam, and the when the spam score got high enough it would have been ‘moved’ out of visibility based on the spam rules.

      This is common on enterprise level mail servers. It is a common group spam hunting technique, one that I find stupid for exactly the reason that happened here. One person’s spam is another persons vital bit of information. In the case of say, an ACT MP, who viewed this as being absolute spam. Compared to a Labour, TPM, or Green MP hwo would most likely regard this as being of high and important interest.

      • Tiger Mountain 7.1.1
        23 October 2024 at 11:00 am

        Thankyou for that clarification lprent, it makes sense–and answers my question.

        • Anne 7.1.1.1
          23 October 2024 at 5:05 pm

          The problem here is: it conveniently prevented Labour from responding to the letter in question last Friday because they never saw it. Whether the fault lay with an individual or an automatic response is yet to be established. But why did it 'cancel' the Labour leader's copy and not any of the other leaders?

          • Belladonna 7.1.1.1.1
            24 October 2024 at 9:28 am

            We don't know that it did cancel only Sepuloni's copy and not that of any of the other leaders.

            And it seems unlikely – given the explanation, so far.

            If it was indeed marked as spam, then all copies distributed in all inboxes within the parliamentary server would have been 'removed' at the same time.

      • Belladonna 7.1.2
        23 October 2024 at 1:46 pm

        I think (and am entirely open to being corrected, if I'm wrong), that multiple (over a certain number) of addressees in an email can also trigger it to be identified as spam within an email environment.

        The question here would be whether it was flagged as spam by an individual, or via an automated routine.

        NB: either is a wrong solution (in this case) – but it affects how you deal with this kind of issue going forward.

        • Patricia Bremner 7.1.2.1
          23 October 2024 at 5:01 pm

          So you would not mind emails disappearing from your inbox without your say so?

          I find that hard to believe.

          Incognito has a great explanation.

          • Belladonna 7.1.2.1.1
            24 October 2024 at 9:14 am

            That's a huge leap….. especially given that I said "either is a wrong solution (in this case) – but it affects how you deal with this kind of issue going forward"

            If you had worked in a modern tech environment, you'd know that the IT guys do identify and 'disappear' phishing or scam emails (often designed to hack into people's passwords, and provide a backdoor to the server) – from people's inboxes. There is no requirement for each individual to be contacted directly about this – it's routine business. It's less common for spam to be dealt with this way.

            This bulk treatment of scam or phishing emails is a good thing – since it protects both the individual and the organization.

            I’m unable to find any explanation from Incognito. However, lprent has dealt with the topic very informatively.

        • lprent 7.1.2.2
          24 October 2024 at 8:48 am

          The type of spam filters you describing are in invariate rules at the server. Those would run after the arrival of a email at the email server and before dispersing to the mail boxes for anyone.

          Not just emails. We have those here for comments, for things like numbers of links, certain types of embedded HTML, and a host of other issues. We refer to it as the auto-spam rules.

          Since the email was sighted by the aide to the MP, flagged for the attention of the MP, and subsequently disappeared. It wasn't caught by one of those rules. It had to have been triggered by something that happened after being disbursed to mail boxes.

          • Belladonna 7.1.2.2.1
            24 October 2024 at 9:16 am

            Thanks lprent – I was aware that the filters existed – but not when they were applied to emails in the pipeline.

      • AB 7.1.3
        23 October 2024 at 7:42 pm

        Presumably the people who marked it as spam would not have known how the automated spam rules worked – or what the effect would be if enough of them marked it as spam?

        So unlikely there was a conspiracy of any sort – appealing though it is to imagine a gaggle of Nats scurrying to their email under Bishop's direction.

        • lprent 7.1.3.1
          24 October 2024 at 8:51 am

          Unlikely. Not impossible.

          A lot of people learn about these little quirks. Periodically some illiterate smartarse tries to leverage them.

          However it makes for extra work for support people and system operators, and it really pays not to piss them off. What they can do makes 'spitting in customers food' look really tame.

    • Once Was Tim or OWT if youse prefer 7.2
      23 October 2024 at 10:59 am

      "……the question here is who authorised this occurring at Parliament?"

      It's obvious @ Tigger. It was an emotional staffer

      And bugger me, and apologies to all. I seem to have forgotten where I am in this space, going forward.

      Now that I have to fill in the fields, I realise I'm at TS instead of TDB.

  8. Subliminal 8
    23 October 2024 at 10:32 am

    Israel is now using white phosphorus agsinst the UN troops in Lebanon. Serious action needs to be taken. Embassies closed and sanctions enforced. They are a terrorist state in the true sense of the word. The West can no longer claim, now or in the future, to hold any moral high ground. There is no country in the world committing more atrocities while being fully armed and supported by us.

    https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-suspected-using-white-phosphorus-un-peacekeepers-lebanon

  9. joe90 9
    23 October 2024 at 12:35 pm

    The plot thickens..

    @patbrittenden

    #BHN Is there a Willis family connection to what's happening to Tory Whanau in Wellington right now? #nzpol

    https://xcancel.com/patbrittenden/status/1847473495858352147

    @simonbwilson

    In @nzherald today I described the tactics of Tory Whanau’s opponents as suicide bombing: destroying their own budget and possibly the council itself to get the govt to move against her. Govt has just announced it will appoint an observer. Premium+paper

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/wayne-brown-and-tory-whanau-whats-the-difference-simon-wilson/JUX3JKSOPNBRZHN5TAN452TVDQ/ (https://archive.li/V23qo)

    https://xcancel.com/simonbwilson/status/1848527012614586525

    • Belladonna 9.1
      23 October 2024 at 1:59 pm

      If I'm reading this link correctly, the issue appears to be that Willis has a connection (godmother) who is a Wellington Councillor. And is therefore (theoretically) motivated to intervene in WCC on her behalf.

      Given that Willis doesn't have any direct responsibility for local government – this appears to be a very long bow to draw.

      I'd say it's much closer to the truth that Whanau is a mayor from a Green political background, who is also having difficulty in forging consensus in her council. A right wing government will be more motivated to intervene – regardless of any familial or political ties they may have to individual councillors.

      When you (as in the author of the link provided) see everything as a conspiracy, you are much more likely to be dismissed as the tinfoil-hat brigade.

      • bwaghorn 9.1.1
        23 October 2024 at 3:14 pm

        I heard it was a couple of right-wing councillors that backed the sale of the airport up until the last minute then went against the sale to sink the councils 10 year plan , if true its more reason to hate right wing political tactics!

        • Nordy 9.1.1.1
          23 October 2024 at 3:26 pm

          Well said bwaghorn. Right wing politicians who don't like democracy (they can't abide it when they aren't in the majority), so they lash out at everything and everyone and claim dysfunction when it is simply a matter of losing votes around the table (and a 'hate' for a left/Green Mayor). They are constantly publicly bagging the Council simply because they aren't in the majority. Like spoilt children/brats, they throw their toys around when they don't get their own way. Simply pathetic.

          • Drowsy M. Kram 9.1.1.1.1
            23 October 2024 at 4:22 pm

            yes Simply pathetic.

            Wellington City Council intervention a warning shot for other NZ councils [23 Oct]
            A card-carrying Green Party mayor with a left-leaning majority on a council table, sitting just five minutes up the road from the most right-leaning Cabinet in decades, has already raised questions about the motivations behind the government's intervention.
            …
            The coalition's threshold for intervention has now been set, and while Willis says no other councils are in the government's crosshairs right now, a warning shot has been fired.

            https://www.russellmcveagh.com/insights-news/the-eye-of-sauron-a-crown-observer-for-wellington/

          • Mike the Lefty 9.1.1.1.2
            24 October 2024 at 10:03 am

            Yep, I have said all along that this is all about National's revenge on Wellington for being one of the few parts of NZ that didn't believe their lies last election day.

            Was also a factor in the large civil servant layoff which just happened conveniently to affect Wellington most.

            If was Labour taking petty revenge like this the whole country would be up in arms.

      • Patricia Bremner 9.1.2
        23 October 2024 at 4:56 pm

        Oh "connections don't count!! Until they do" Get over yourself Belladonna. That connection is more real than your "tin hat conspiracy assertion".

        • Belladonna 9.1.2.1
          24 October 2024 at 9:19 am

          If you don't want a flame war, Patricia, don't start one.
          If you have a counter-argument – demonstrating that there is some reality in this conspiracy theory – then produce it!

  10. dv 10
    23 October 2024 at 5:30 pm

    Problem

    Click on the article, it comes up but now can't click away to comments.

    This happens on out iPad too.

  11. Hunter Thompson II 11
    23 October 2024 at 5:55 pm

    Parliament is debating the Resource Management (Freshwater and Other Matters) Amendment Bill. A deal favouring the rural sector has emerged (discussed on Richard Harman's Politik website).

    It seems farmers pressured Penny Simmonds seeking changes to the Bill (in effect stalling a regulation that would have restricted farm waste discharges). The government slipped this in after the select committee process had closed. The public had no chance to comment.

    Otago Regional Council has had to cancel its meeting to vote on a new freshwater regulation .

    Federated Farmers is also retaliating against Fish & Game NZ by telling Southland farmers to block anglers from accessing rivers on their properties. The Feds obviously think that if farmers aren't allowed to pollute the rivers, the public should not be allowed to fish in them.