Open mike 25/11/2019

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, November 25th, 2019 - 134 comments
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Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

134 comments on “Open mike 25/11/2019 ”

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  1. Sacha 1
    25 November 2019 at 7:33 am

    Stuff has started another political poll with international agency YouGov – uses only online sampling rather than phones. As usual, we can only really judge trends over time so single poll results are not that meaningful in themselves. https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/117662933/labour-ahead-while-national-dips-below-40-in-new-stuff-poll

    • Dukeofurl 1.1
      25 November 2019 at 8:39 am

      Thats interesting .

      They say it was conducted between 7-11 Nov but isnt publicised till 25th ?

      2 week delay is really strange. Is there another poll coming this week , the traditional sort

      Checking back I see Colmar Brunton did one around this time last year.

      Its very bad journalism by Stuff to hang onto exclusive poll results for nearly 2 weeks.

    • Sanctuary 1.2
      25 November 2019 at 8:58 am

      YouGov polling methods has been heavily criticised in the UK and I am frankly surprised that Stuff are using them. They were probably the cheapest option.

      YouGov used the same sort of methodology described in the Stuff piece back in 2017 in the UK and they got final result completely wrong.

      Apart from all the usual hazards of online polling, the biggest problem with their polling is the guesswork behind their weighting of online samples to give the final result. For example, in the UK in 2017 they heavily discounted the results from anyone young because they were thought unlikely to vote, whilst assuming anyone over 60 will almost always vote.

      • UncookedSelachimorpha 1.2.1
        25 November 2019 at 9:28 am

        Stuff are in the market for clicks, not data.

      • Dukeofurl 1.2.2
        25 November 2019 at 10:06 am

        Recruiting an online panel of the public to survey is used by the others too

        Reid Research …Join our panel

        Colmar Brunton too

        Phone polls use the same weighting methods, for the voting group, age, income, ethnicity etc

        the 2017 UK polling assumptions affected all the surveys, and what readers who make up their minds early might not realise is a chunk of voters make up their minds on the day or just before. Who can survey that?

        NZ is lucky in that MMP directly takes a voting % into seats. Polling for FPP electorates is inherently difficult.

      • cleangreen 1.2.3
        25 November 2019 at 12:07 pm

        Sanctuary said; “They (You Gov) were probably the cheapest option”????

        Cheap shot at your shock about the negative polling results???

  2. A 2
    25 November 2019 at 7:57 am

    Allegations the Chinese Government attempted to recruit a car salesman, "Nick" Zhao to run as a Liberal Party candidate have come to light. Mr Zhao allegedly told ASIO about the deal, and was found dead in a hotel room earlier this year.

    “Using an Australian citizen and basically run them as an agent of foreign influence in our democratic system. So this is really significant and Australians should be very, very concerned about this.” Mr Hastie has called for a full investigation into Mr Zhao’s death.

    “Everyone should be concerned about the way that Nick Zhao died and I think we need a full investigation where we turn over every stone,” he said. “We explore every nook and cranny, we cast as much light into the shadows and make sure that we have a full comprehensive understanding of how he died and why he died.”

    Uber creepy.

    https://www.news.com.au/national/politics/alleged-plot-to-infiltrate-australian-government/news-story/a3cdbfb2830273e340ee22f9c4bea6b6

  3. gsays 3
    25 November 2019 at 8:05 am

    Once again.. another warning, more from the front line.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/404007/report-critical-over-lack-of-action-on-dire-state-of-public-hospitals

    Last night/this morning, our local hospital is full. Nowhere for patients to go to from ED.

    Senior nurses are talking about experiencing PTSD.. The 'safe' places these people use (running, excercising, debrief at home) are starting to fail…

    To go to your place of work, with a feeling of dread. To be often in crisis mode, barely coping with too large a work load. Not good for the patients and families

    Then hear the latest approach from management, knowing it will not make a difference, as the last few changes made no difference.

    An immediate difference is to implement a nurse/patient ratio, 1/4 in ED.

    Of course it is the same old, same old. A lack of priority from those who hold the purse strings.

    • tc 3.1
      25 November 2019 at 8:56 am

      PTSD is a very real consequence of Ryall/Colemans slash n burn along with underfunding against rising population and demanding DHB's still balance budgets.

      Most flogged and leased back to do that which we all know just kicks it down the road, a national party speciality.

      • gsays 3.1.1
        25 November 2019 at 12:03 pm

        PTSD was first mentioned this morning at home, post night shift debrief.

        It was observed in a fellow senior colleague. Running is their escape/process time. They had an anxiety attack during the run.

        Things are getting serious when the stress manifests in one's 'safe' place.

        • cleangreen 3.1.1.1
          25 November 2019 at 12:18 pm

          gsays

          Yes you are so correct when you pointed it out that when our "safe place" becomes a stressful place.to live is a problem.

          As more and more 'scammers' are knocking on our doors posing as someone else.

      • greywarshark 3.1.2
        25 November 2019 at 12:21 pm

        Edit
        I have done a bit of ferreting in the background to health spending and it is interesting so I have put a number of links and part of some reporting to give a taste of what the problems are. It is NZ Government charges on DHBs that bother me. It might have changed recently but they have to make a return on their land use I think. Supposed to make them more efficient.

        This is from a letter to Health Minister David Clark drawing his attention to the 'capital charge' DHBs must pay to the government. I think is an egregious and swingeing impost on DHBs under the business model accounting system, which has probably been set by Treasury but needs to be struck off.

        https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/113984983/capital-charge-makes-it-hard-for-dhbs-to-do-their-job

        Canterbury researcher Dr Michael Gousmett has long expressed concern at the capital charge – what he describes as "a tax" on their "taxpayer-funded net assets" – which the country's district health boards (DHBs) pay to the Government, and the impact this charge has on DHBs' ability to deliver core services. He outlines these concerns in an open letter to Health Minister David Clark.

        More on the 'capital charge' from a report by the Association of Salaried Medical Specialists who understand the problems and are well versed in the economics of health in NZ.

        2018 https://www.asms.org.nz/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Research-Brief-Capital-Charge_169877.2.pdf

        And a different viewpoint: https://croakingcassandra.com/2019/03/11/in-defence-of-capital-charges-and-higher-public-sector-discount-rates/

        (While all this discussion goes on, the hospital services remain in virtual limbo and people must wait for reasonable health provision. People I know who have worked in hospitals tell me about the number and duration of meetings from which very little outcomes arise.)

        This on the health funding provision for medical services, staff and doctors from Coleman's 2017 Budget. Has funding increased to a reasonable level since then, both on a population basis, but also special provision, taking account of large areas requiring access by sparse populations as in Southland?

        https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/404007/report-critical-over-lack-of-action-on-dire-state-of-public-hospitals

        May 2017 – The health sector needs an additional $1.1 billion in this week's Budget to maintain services, according to the Council of Trade Unions (CTU) and the senior doctors' union…

        The CTU calculated the Government had not adequately funded DHBs since 2009-2010. Increased costs created a shortfall of $1.8m in health spending.

        Research published in the New Zealand Medical Journal in March by Canterbury Charity Hospital founder Dr Phil Bagshaw showed at least 25 percent of adults could not get the basic health care they need. About nine percent have an unmet need for hospital care. ..

        Underfunding affected nurses, New Zealand Nurses Organisation chief executive Memo Musa said.

        "Our members have told us underfunding is now affecting patient safety, access to care, triggering care-rationing, health-worker burn out and straining the infrastructure."

        Dr Coleman said in a statement: "This is traditional pre-budget positioning by CTU and other unions. People should wait until the Budget on Thursday."
        .

        CTU economist Bill Rosenberg on health funding in 2019 budget.
        https://www.union.org.nz/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/Did-the-Budget-provide-enough-for-Health-2019.pdf

        Google lists a number of reports I counted six – on the economics of DHBs with this one I looked through that is a messy pdf showing graphs of units of health gained by some action compared to the opportunity cost of education spending. (Theoretical stuff for a computerised report which tops giving actual hands-on assistance at the coalface!)
        https://www.productivity.govt.nz/assets/Documents/31af48f5ed/History-of-efficiency-measurement-by-the-health-sector-Knopf-v2.pdf

        This from the Association of Salaried Medical Specialists 2014 https://www.asms.org.nz/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Reality-Check-health-funding-paper-Final-21-August_162107.6.pdf
        162107.6 Reality check:The myth of unsustainable health funding and what Treasury figures actually show

        Then there are the profitable business interests nosing around which have infiltrated some NZ DHBs to the extent that their CEOs have set up their own private business to provide needs of the hospital under their management . This was a shameful grab and double-dipping from people trying to have their cake and eat it too; and succeeding in the confused and corrupt public management set-up neolib economics has dumped on us. (I can’t remember off-hand which hospital CEO that did this – but the news stayed in my memory.)

        If less money was spent on preparing reports on theories of how much money could be withheld and spent somewhere else, and money made available on simple straightforward service basis, we could probably see an immediate benefit to conditions.

        Then looking at allocation of funding being supplied on an age basis, with the priorities on helping people get back to work, or giving children the services to ensure their proper growth and healthy development, that would be a good start. Then pay attention to what the older people needed and this would reverse the present situation. First the young, and helping those in pain, but not bypassing age but not giving priority to those nearing death which forms a large part of hospital spending.

        An economist's report on health spending gives this little gem, an indication of how cold mathematical analysis squeezes humans into little measurable units and probably explains why there is so much pain in the health sector felt by providers as well as patients.

        https://www2.deloitte.com/nz/en/pages/2018-government-budget/articles/health-2018-new-zealand-budget.html
        Again, we hope this money will be spent differently from how it’s been spent in the past. The government wants to lift New Zealand’s productivity, and it is about time we did so in healthcare. Sadly, Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE) estimates that our workforce of around 210,000 health and social workers is less productive than the national average across all industries, generating only $39 GDP per hour worked (compared to a national average of $48). Even worse, MBIE figures show a steadily declining average in health sector productivity over a number of years.

    • Sacha 3.2
      25 November 2019 at 9:03 am

      How can that be 'immediate' when there are already not enough nurses to go around? Which services would you remove them from to go to ED instead?

      • UncookedSelachimorpha 3.2.1
        25 November 2019 at 9:31 am

        I know a few recent nursing graduates from NZ, all gone to work in Aussie (within months of graduation) for much better pay.

        • Sacha 3.2.1.1
          25 November 2019 at 9:34 am

          I welcome hearing how we can 'immediately' increase the pay of all nurses to keep them here.

          • SPC 3.2.1.1.1
            25 November 2019 at 10:02 am

            I'd stop paying super to (most of) those still working. Frees up billions each year.

            Then

            Pay increases teachers and nurses

            Better staffing levels schools and hospitals

            Increase Pharmac funding

            Pay those with disability the super payment rate and pay the dole to partners who cannot work (disability, or caring for others).

            Pay super rates to those unemployed/sickness over age 60.

            Increase state housing from 2000 to 3000 new builds a year and buy 2000 a year from existing housing to get the homeless out of motels.

            End repayment of grants out of benefit income (wait till they find jobs first)

            Allow beneficiaries to earn more money before abatement

            Offer government (cheaper) debt refinance to families facing hardship because of debt.

            • greywarshark 3.2.1.1.1.1
              25 November 2019 at 10:11 am

              Just a thought SPC. I would like a reasonably factual figure of how much would be saved by stopping superannuation (old age pension) for the still working after age 65. Do you have a figure to hand or can give a link where it can be found within say one minute? This is something that we should be thinking about.

              • solkta …
                25 November 2019 at 10:22 am

                I wouldn't waste any time on it as it is not going to happen any time soon. The backlash from boomers would sink any gummint that tried.

                • greywarshark …
                  25 November 2019 at 10:41 am

                  Anyway a cool look at the money we have in the economy, and the money we are borrowing every day to keep the present steady state we have, would possibly show that we actually can afford super with a few tweaks.

                  One thing that could be done is that anyone who receives super goes on a volunteer register and chooses something the government would like done and puts in two to three hours a week minimum on their choice. Showing their enthusiasm for their country in a balanced caring relationship!

              • SPC …
                25 November 2019 at 10:50 am

                The current cost is $15B a year – an increase of $1B in the past year – 1953-54 baby boomers. It will be $23B c 2023 (741,300 last year to over 872,900 by then).

                A lot of these new retirees will still be working.

                Forty-four per cent of people aged 65 to 69 are still working and that is expected to increase in future.

                The number working is greater than could reasonably be excluded (it would have to be more than a MW income and losing super not involve hardship – because of say rent or unpaid mortgage etc).

                There are two figures those working now and receiving super (44% of those 65-69). Current cost (some of these will retire during the next 5 years).

                The increasing numbers of those reaching age 65 while still working in the next 5 years (rising to over a million by c2030/$20B).

                As to how many New Zealanders work full-time while receiving NZ Super and thus calculating the amount that would be saved by not paying them NZ Super until they retired – I have never seen the figure reported anywhere. Short answer billions each year and its rising every year.

              • SPC …
                25 November 2019 at 10:59 am

                The current cost is $15B a year – an increase of $1B in the past year – 1953-54 baby boomers. It will be $20B c 2023 (741,300 last year to over 872,900 by 2023). A lot of these new retirees will still be working.

                Forty-four per cent of people aged 65 to 69 are still working and that is expected to increase in future.

                The number working is greater than could reasonably be excluded (it would have to be more than a MW income and losing super not involve hardship – because of say rent or unpaid mortgage etc).

                There are two figures
                1. current cost – those working now and receiving super (44% of those 65-69). (some of these will retire during the next 5 years).

                2. future cost – the increasing numbers of those reaching age 65 while still working in the next 5 years (rising to over a million by c2030).

                As to how many New Zealanders work full-time while receiving NZ Super and thus calculating the amount that would be saved by not paying them NZ Super until they retired – I have never seen the figure reported anywhere.

                Short answer billions each year and its rising every year.

                • greywarshark …
                  25 November 2019 at 3:13 pm

                  Thanks SPC. Just thinking while it might be good for mental health to keep on working after 65 and it may indicate a pride in not being past 'it', it may be taking a job that pays well along with seniority perhaps, and jobs are in short supply for older people still under retirement age.

                • lprent …
                  25 November 2019 at 5:09 pm

                  FFS: remember that super is taxed. Presumably one income or the other will be at secondary rates if we still have them or would probably push tax brackets otherwise.

                  So when you calculate it, approximate the clawback into your estimates.

                  • SPC …
                    25 November 2019 at 5:49 pm

                    Well given a reasonable rule of thumb would be that a sufficient to not need super income would be the living wage level (full-time) c$45,000 or above – with $20,000 single or $15,000 couple rate.

                    Tax rules applying

                    between $48,001 and $70,000 secondary tax code is SH and NZ Super taxed at 30%

                    more than $70,000 your secondary tax code is ST and your NZ Super will be taxed at 33%.

                    So deducting 30 cents off est $2Bpa gross cost leaves around $1.4Bpa net cost rising further each year to 2030.

            • Dukeofurl 3.2.1.1.1.2
              25 November 2019 at 10:25 am

              the Entire Super cost is $11-12 bill per year ( 2017)

              Only a fraction 30% would be in the 65-70 age group The 30% comes from MSD Super data tables

              Those working may be part time but lets be generous and assume 1/3 of those between 65-70 are working

              This then leads to 10% of entire super pop are 'working' ( 1/3 of the 30% 65-70)

              That would have a rough figure of $1.2 bill saved if those working got no super at all.

              • SPC …
                25 November 2019 at 12:06 pm

                The census of 2013 puts the number of people aged 60-64 as 230,000. Say 210,000 are still alive.

                Apparently about 44% of them work aged 65-69. Say 1/4 work only work part-time. So if 1/3rd did not get Super, then that would be around 10% of the total on Super (over 700,000).

                The current cost is $15Bpa – so $1.5B plus those over 70 still working more around $2B pa at the moment. It would rise to around $3Bpa by 2030 in todays dollars.

            • Nic the NZer 3.2.1.1.1.3
              25 November 2019 at 12:46 pm

              This is almost certainly the wrong way to think of it. The NZ govt at all times has the capacity to buy everything for sale in NZ dollers. Paying /not paying pensions does not change that at all. The constraint the govt does have to deal with is on the real side of the economy, e.g are there sufficient medical professionals to carry out the work and maybe is there extra burden being put by the private sectors ability to buy up those resources.

              By cutting pensions to those working you will most likely just leave a hole in aggregate demand and be responsible for a whole raft of inequity. I also suspect that its vaguely illegal as the pension payments were effectively earned at the time they were taxed by the wage earner.

              • SPC …
                25 November 2019 at 1:16 pm

                1. The problem is limited government funding to HB who can thus can only afford so many staff. Then there are wages unattractive compared to those in Oz. Even if all positions were staffed the working conditions would be worse than in Oz, and because of this and lower pay, they find it hard to fill all the positions. Making things worse for those still employed.

                2. Super is paid for out of current taxes.

                • Nic the NZer …
                  25 November 2019 at 2:35 pm

                  The problem is the limited funding of the DHBs. The govt can choose to increase that without facing any financial constraint on so doing.

                  Payments to pensioners occur when the govt credits pensioners bank accounts. The payments the govt makes to the pensioners banks occur inside the reserve bank settlement system (the bank then goes on to credit the pensioners account). Only the reserve bank can create these interbank settlement account balances and entries. Making such payments (in a similar way to making payments to DHBs or their employees) is not therefore constrained by tax collection.

                  The main constraint here is a voluntary preference of the government.

                  • McFlock …
                    25 November 2019 at 2:40 pm

                    The term that always pisses me off is "DHB deficit".

                    That's just a measure of how underfunded each DHB is.

                  • SPC …
                    25 November 2019 at 3:01 pm

                    If the government increases funding to HB. How do they respond? The HB cannot fill all places it has funds for now because they cannot attract staff at their pay rates.

                    Does the HB increase pay to fill all existing staffing positions or declare more vacancies when they are struggling to fill vacancies now

                    You know what a 30% GDP spending cap is right? Yeah I know its a voluntary 2017-2020 Labour-Green commitment to demonstrate their neo-liberal credentials to centre New Zealand, but that – and things like budget deficit or surplus and debt to GDP still determine the parameters for party policy formation and political debate.

                    • Nic the NZer …
                      25 November 2019 at 3:10 pm

                      So your suggesting taking away pensions in order to maintain that Labour party voluntary policy then? You realise at least some of the part time workers are relying on that pension payment for a reasonable income. Time, i think, to address the actual problem rather than contorting the govt policy to try to accomodate a harmful fiscal strategy.

                    • SPC …
                      25 November 2019 at 4:38 pm

                      I am saying there is a more just allocation of revenues/spending than paying super to those working (and I am referring to those working full-time or earning more than a 40 hour MW/living wage if part-time).

                    • Nic the NZer []
                      25 November 2019 at 6:21 pm

                      I'm pretty sure we already established in the discussion that this neo-liberal constraint framing is a fiction. It happens to obfuscate from the present and previous govts choices to underfund the DHBs and ultimately put many health care workers under various stresses. Its also their narrative choice to have DHBs report deficits rather than funding them with sufficient operational expenditure.

                  • gsays …
                    26 November 2019 at 7:43 am

                    Thanks Nic for yr contribution.

                    Where can I read up on this, without too much going over my head?

              • greywarshark …
                25 November 2019 at 3:19 pm

                The pension payments are taken out of current earnings. When super was set up there was higher inflation and that could mean that savings value could be eroded whether private or government. Also there is the possibility of fraud, and for security in old age the pension (super) was set up to be universal and current. The Kiwisaver was a prudent and carefully managed fund added, that would take the shock to the system when all the products of a particularly fruitful time came of (older) age.

        • SPC 3.2.1.2
          25 November 2019 at 9:51 am

          The better working conditions – better staffing levels, are reason enough to go. Of course the better pay means the student debt can be paid back more easily.

        • greywarshark 3.2.1.3
          25 November 2019 at 10:07 am

          Well Key did want to set up a low wage system in New Zealand. And the Gnats wanted us to work harder and not get so above ourselves in our pay demands. The Gnats succeeded – or did they?

          Did the National Party and their sycophants find the truth of that cautionary saying 'Be careful what you wish for', (or when you get it you might find it's a poisoned chalice)? No, the National Party find it suits them to go on poisoning us, our society, our living conditions, our water, our environment, our hopes and dreams. I am sick of materialistic sycophants.

          • cleangreen 3.2.1.3.1
            25 November 2019 at 1:24 pm

            yes Greywarshark; well said. 100%

            quote;

            "No, the National Party find it suits them to go on poisoning us, our society, our living conditions, our water, our environment, our hopes and dreams. I am sick of materialistic sycophants".

            ''Truer words have never been spoken'

      • gsays 3.2.2
        25 November 2019 at 11:56 am

        You are going to have to ask someone else to answer your binary choice questions.

        There is a lack of imagination in your thinking.

        I am not necessarily suggesting BAU with more nurses.

        There are plenty of Health centres/hubs, private providers etc than can meet the health needs of a % of those that present at ED.

        It is merely a question of priorities.

    • adam 3.4
      25 November 2019 at 1:14 pm

      This is because we have a two tier health system.

      Simple solution take the money off the private insurance companies, then ban private health insurance.

      Health care for all or let the poor die – your choice.

      • gsays 3.4.1
        26 November 2019 at 7:45 am

        Heh, it's a cruel irony that the EDs around the country are serving both tiers of the system but only being funded by the public purse.

  4. SPC 4
    25 November 2019 at 8:20 am

    Stuff has published fake news from Jonathan Young of National – where he claims that ending new exploration licences is the reason why we burnt more coal for power generation last year.

    What has become clear is there has been no net environmental gain as we're currently using less gas for electricity generation and burning 115 per cent more coal than a year ago.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/117648825/taranaki-2050-roadmap-may-have-a-few-bumps-in-the-road-ahead

    As if not issuing permits for new gas exploration has an impact on the current supply to the market …

  5. SPC 5
    25 November 2019 at 8:25 am

    Documents included bank statements, spending records, donation receipts, letters and emails

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/117650875/a-wine-box-a-deep-throat-and-a-dumpster–the-trail-that-led-to-the-nz-first-donations-scandal

    A journalist directed to a dumpster in Hamilton.

    We still do not know if this was a whistle blower or a hacking agent.

    • Dukeofurl 5.1
      25 November 2019 at 8:47 am

      Curious . The people who stole the documents , then put them in a dumpster and call a journalist ? Who hasnt done that . Why didnt Nixons 'plumbers' think of that

    • Sacha 5.2
      25 November 2019 at 9:07 am

      Forgetting the rigmarole of finally getting hard proof, the information should be publicly available. It is beyond a lack of transparency. I feel it is a lack of basic honesty.

      For Peters the documents potentially betray his voters, the donors who back the party, his candidates, his MPs and democracy.

      There are so many people left bloodied on the path behind him that a resistance started to form and say enough is enough.

      • SPC 5.2.1
        25 November 2019 at 9:16 am

        The problem is this sort of dump is that it is designed to replay 2005 and undermine NZF's re-election. It's manipulative dirty politics.

        It's all very well for the media to run with it, but it's selective coverage advantaging another party/other parties.

        Holding a blow torch to the practices of other parties in this area, with an overview of clearer and cleaner rules for all, is the way the media can best serve the public.

      • Dukeofurl 5.2.2
        25 November 2019 at 9:45 am

        hes the only political leader whos been there for 25 years.

        I see people talk about something about the Cook St ferries and Peters as though it was yesterday, the same era scandal involved Jenny Shipley and Tourism ministry – who remembers that. One of TS contributors had a list of Keys lies, twisted facts and half truths that could fill a booklet- who remembers that.

        What you dont seem to get is the 2017 election result of Labour and Greens is less seats than National- remember that

        Its just a game of fantasy football that Peters can be discarded

    • Jimmy 5.3
      25 November 2019 at 9:34 am

      This sounds like something out of a spy movie!

    • Naki man 5.4
      25 November 2019 at 4:04 pm

      We do know he has a sense of humour leaving them in a wine box.

      Lets hope the details get drip fed into the media for months.

      • Incognito 5.4.1
        25 November 2019 at 4:14 pm

        Yeah, let’s have another long drawn-out tortuous trial-by-media inflicting maximal harm to NZF, the Coalition-Government, and NZ politics in general. MSM would love nothing more than that.

  6. SPC 6
    25 November 2019 at 8:46 am

    The Herald has editoralised that Trump should face the voters, rather than be subject to an impeachment process (which just has Trump's own party Senators determine judgement).

    Presumably they take the same stand on NZ First's fundraising practices and or the PM of Israel facing criminal charges while in office, or those politicians facing charges of corruption (or disqualified from standing for elections, as per Brazil).

    • SPC 7.1
      25 November 2019 at 9:24 am

      The BBC just changed things to the way it should have been – so the audience applauded Johnson's answer on trust rather than laughed and so (a year earlier in fact) Johnson lay the wreath down the right way up (he had done so in the past after all).

      It just goes to show how many Etonians rise to the top in all spheres of UK society …

      • greywarshark 7.1.1
        25 November 2019 at 10:27 am

        I'm just reading CP Snow's 1964 Corridors of Power. He describes one family mixing in high circles in London; that they had never studied politics, but in their sphere had been immersed in it since childhood, understood all the maneouvres and levels of importance and thought it their right as members of high society to receive political positions if they were so inclined.

        He wrote incisively in his 1959 book 'The Two Cultures and the Scientific Revolution':

        There is, of course, no complete solution. […] But we can do something. The chief means open to us is education […] There is no excuse for letting another generation be as vastly ignorant, or as devoid of understanding and sympathy, as we are ourselves.

        (This is a wikiquote and seems relevant to my point, though shortened.)

    • Dukeofurl 7.2
      25 November 2019 at 9:50 am

      If it was Corbyn, the audience laughing would be the only part they would show.

  8. mosa 8
    25 November 2019 at 9:56 am

    This from Christine Rose

    When Winston Peters announced the New Zealand First decision to enter into a Coalition agreement with the Labour Party, he observed it was ‘now or never for serious change in this country’s social and economic direction’. Equally, Jacinda Ardern signaled that she sought a change to capitalism and the way the economy is run. There appeared agreement that the neo-liberal experiment had failed New Zealanders, and the views of many, of “capitalism as foe”, “was not all wrong”. Winston said “capitalism must regain its responsible, human face” and that this view deeply influenced his party’s negotiations. He said he was confronted with the choice between a “modified status quo, or change’,

    https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2019/11/25/dodgy-donations-the-devils-work/

  9. greywarshark 9
    25 November 2019 at 10:33 am

    Trucks bigger and destroying roads and bridges as they feed out the product of the thoughtless economy.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/404035/auckland-trains-cancelled-after-truck-hits-rail-overbridge

    Key likes the idea of the Northern Port – thinks it makes sense. Then the extra cherry for the tuck operators, a four lane highway right to Whangarei. He has retired from his PM job and become a lobbyist for the powerful trying to drive the country forward by twisting our tails. Look out Key for we poor cows and our ultimate retaliation, we might poo on your hand.

  10. greywarshark 10
    25 November 2019 at 10:47 am

    I haven't kept up with the Millane case. Could someone please tell me why the suppression of name of the accused is in place still? And put this use of it in context with what we expect with open justice in NZ. (And I would really like to hear from someone else apart from DoU.)

    • McFlock 10.1
      25 November 2019 at 12:05 pm

      Suppression orders often also suppress the reasons for suppression. there is no "why". They just are. Until they are lifted (I would expect the order to be lifted at sentencing, though).

      • OnceWasTim 10.1.1
        25 November 2019 at 5:52 pm

        +1.

        As others are speculating, there can be a number of reasons –

        appeal related

        whether further charges are being looked into

        whether there are wider Police investigations taking place

        the wishes of the victim's family and whether or not the prosecution considers the case closed or not

        or something else – maybe even while the judge considers where and wha bestt to do with him so that rough justice is less of a prospect

        I'm not quite sure how my knowing the name of this 26 now 27 year old fucked unit is going to benefit me or the general public – knowing that he's in custody, and is likely to be for quite some time.

        Open justice takes time. It's taken a year so far. If suppression orders were to be made permanent, then I might have a different opinion.

        There's already been enough speculation over this case during the past year (including a bit of victim blaming – such as my blokey neighbours when sinking piss bleating out that "she must be a bit of a dirty girl eh!)

    • Psycho Milt 10.2
      25 November 2019 at 12:12 pm

      I haven't seen a reason given, but most likely it means something else is pending – an appeal against conviction maybe, or further charges. Must say it's hard to picture an appeal against conviction being the reason…

    • McFlock 10.3
      25 November 2019 at 1:36 pm

      Today, Stuff have an article with a general overview of suppression orders in NZ.

      Obviously they don't specifically talk about the current case, but it's a pretty good round up of the usual reasons and why they exist.

  11. Jimmy 11
    25 November 2019 at 10:54 am

    I cannot see why the name suppression is still in place either. I don't believe he is a famous person or anything and the UK papers have named him apparently. I can only imagine the name suppression stays if there is going to be an appeal? Or if the Millane family (victim) have requested the name suppression stays although I can't imagine why they would.

    • Prickles 11.1
      25 November 2019 at 12:38 pm

      Don’t forget that the Crown were able to produce photos from his phone. If they found other photos or messages on that phone that would have a bearing on this or any subsequent trial then it makes sense to continue name suppression.

  12. mosa 12
    25 November 2019 at 11:38 am

    [deleted]

    [please don’t speculate details about Grace Millane’s killer. We don’t know the details of the suppression order, so better to err on the side of caution. Posting comment that creates legal risks for the site risks a ban – weka]

    • Sacha 12.1
      25 November 2019 at 11:54 am

      Given that we do not know the scope of the suppression order, why would you even ask that?

      • mosa 12.1.1
        25 November 2019 at 12:00 pm

        Sure the suppression order is in place i am aware of that thanks Sacha.

        Just thinking back too some of the comments made in the trial and from conversations with acquaintances [deleted]

        [mod notes above and below. – weka]

        • Sacha 12.1.1.1
          25 November 2019 at 12:09 pm

          If my great aunt said he's transgender and I was sufficiently interested in that, I would post it on my own website rather than where someone else might get prosecuted for it. Be a sport.

          • mosa 12.1.1.1.1
            25 November 2019 at 12:40 pm

            Thanks Sacha it must be wonderful too be a learned individual like yourself sport.

            • weka 12.1.1.1.1.1
              25 November 2019 at 12:49 pm

              You're welcome to link to information in the mainstream media. In the meantime please don't post speculation about details of the killer. As a mod I haven't seen the details of the suppression order, so am erring on the side of caution.

    • McFlock 12.2
      25 November 2019 at 12:02 pm

      Why would you even ask that if there's a suppression order in place? Do you really want an answer on this site?

      lolsnap sacha

    • The Al1en 12.3
      25 November 2019 at 12:39 pm

      [deleted]
      Stricter controls this time out so unable to confirm or deny.

      As for breaching the order with my answer, and putting the site in jeopardy, I’ve narrowed it down to 1 in 5 million or 1 in 7.5 billion. Pretty safe odds.

      [good for you. I on the other hand am aware that it’s the Trust that carries the legal risk not me, and that speculation leads to other people speculating who don’t know where the boundaries are. This increases the work for mods, which tends to piss us off – weka]

      • weka 12.3.1
        25 November 2019 at 12:57 pm

        next time I'll just trash the top comment, which takes out the replies as well. Please don't take this as encouragement to speculate as I'm good with handing out bans too.

        • The Al1en 12.3.1.1
          25 November 2019 at 1:04 pm

          I'm sure you are, and well done for earning that privilige.

          I did just read how in the UK in the last year there were 59 cases of men using rough sex as an excuse for murder. In the same time frame there were zero cases of women claiming that defence.

          • weka 12.3.1.1.1
            25 November 2019 at 1:09 pm

            there's been a bit of discussion in OM and DR in the past week. I don't remember the details but there's something specific about the UK legislation that allows this to be more common (and the bigger population).

      • lprent 12.3.2
        25 November 2019 at 5:15 pm

        And since I am the one who has to go to court for you being a dickhead, you are courting a permanent ban from me.

        It sounds fair to me…

        • The Al1en 12.3.2.1
          25 November 2019 at 5:34 pm

          The question I ambiguously answered was about [deleted], and as shown in what's left of my reply all I've done is narrowed it down to 1 in 5 million or 1 in 7.5 billion. and that in no way goes anywhere near identifying the individual whose identity is suppressed.

          But sure thing, big boy, you gotta roll how you gotta roll 🙄

          https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12287727

          “the man has also been named on social media accounts leaving the police to issue a warning not to state his identity on any posts.

          He cannot yet be named for legal reasons, which have been strictly adhered to by New Zealand media, who can be prosecuted if they don’t comply with the court’s order.”

          [2 week ban for wasting my time and ignoring moderation. See my comment below. – weka]

          • weka 12.3.2.1.1
            25 November 2019 at 6:54 pm

            You still don't get it. YOU don't get to decide where the boundary is (nor any other commenter). Ultimately it's for Lynn and Mike to decide. In the meantime this mod is erring on the side of caution for reasons I have already explained and which you seem to be ignoring.

            1. we don't know the details of the suppression order. I've seen one journalist say it covers the name and identifying details.

            2. if your comment is ok legally (I have no way of knowing), it still leaves the problem of speculation encouraging other people to speculate who have different ideas or no clue about where the boundary is, and each time that happens one of the mods has to read the comments and think about the issues and moderate (which can take varying degrees of time). I'm sick of having to spend time on this.

    • mosa 12.4
      25 November 2019 at 12:58 pm

      My sincere apologies Weka.

      Completely understood.

  13. Janice 13
    25 November 2019 at 12:01 pm

    Horrors! Just went to do the Herald crossword and now they want you to subscribe before you can.

    • Incognito 13.1
      25 November 2019 at 1:37 pm

      They have to take money off you somehow.

    • Wensleydale 13.2
      25 November 2019 at 1:43 pm

      That's how Granny Herald rolls now. All the toxic partisan crap is free, and you have to pay for anything interesting or relevant. Like crossword puzzles. Or actual news. I've found my life has improved immeasurably ever since I decided to stop reading the Herald completely. I don't understand subscribers. It's like paying someone to punch you in the face.

  14. Ad 14
    25 November 2019 at 12:19 pm

    US Secretary of Navy Richard Spencer resigning for trying to cover up war crimes of one of his staff.

    Good job.

  15. observer 15
    25 November 2019 at 12:31 pm

    Congratulations to the people of Hong Kong, who have stood up for democracy against dictatorship. A stunning election result.

    It is sad that so many of our politicians, in the relative comfort and safety of NZ, cannot stand up alongside them – for no reason except Beijing $$$.

  16. Robert Guyton 16
    25 November 2019 at 1:03 pm

    “Oh, my goodness, it was stunning, the level of buzzing,” Guthrie said. “That moment was sort of an awakening for me.” The presence of so many bees and other insects was an indicator, to Guthrie, of the health of the land."

    https://civileats.com/2019/10/15/planting-native-prairie-could-be-a-secret-weapon-for-farmers/

  17. greywarshark 17
    25 November 2019 at 3:57 pm

    Horrible. Yet Todd Muller on Radionz decrying our hard and unreasonable townies are on 'farmers'. It is time for the umbrella to be removed from the body of all-farmers and let the dirty ones stand in the rain and get shamed and cleansed. Why should the ones that try to do well be besmirched with blame. If they moan about it, they need to recognise that they need to show up the others, twist their arms up their back, until they change their ways.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/country/404052/farm-animals-suffering-due-to-poor-winter-grazing-practices-taskforce-says

    Farm animals are suffering in muddy, confined spaces, with many people ignoring the problem and officials unsure of what to do about it, a hard- hitting report has found.

    020818 Photo: Richard Cosgrove / Fish & Game NZ Southland Fish & Game field trip looking at winter grazing and break feeding practices

    Farm groups says pictures showing cows in mud have been taken out of context. Photo: Fish & Game New Zealand

    The comments came in a report by a special taskforce on winter grazing.

    Foreign farmers from Europe say, who come here and follow their usual ways at home need to be pulled up sharply. In Europe M.bovis is present and I think vaccinated against, but we were free of it. Similar with foot and mouth, I think they vaccinated against it over there.

    Todd Muller National's agriculture spokesperson realises that there is a lot of ignorance around but he thinks it is townies who need to learn about the wondrous ways of the farming lobby. We townies are very credulous Todd, if you can show us that you are all behind environmental change we will be all on your side hand in hand.

    His comments come in response to a question in a Level 3 English paper that asked students to "discuss the way the writer explores ongoing change" in a New Zealand Geographic article.The text quoted a survey showing two-thirds of respondents blamed farmers for deteriorating water quality.

    Todd Muller says the piece painted a one-sided picture of New Zealand's farmers. https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/2018723944/todd-muller-on-ncea-level-three-english-exam

    • Sacha 17.1
      25 November 2019 at 7:09 pm

      pictures showing cows in mud have been taken out of context

      Nobody mentioned the herd spa day that it was part of. The waiting nail polishers were just out of shot.

  18. Eco maori 18
    27 November 2019 at 6:45 am

    Power cut were I Am at the minute shows what they think of the rest of the tangata

    Ka kite Ano

  19. Eco maori 19
    27 November 2019 at 9:21 am

    I can spot the merchants of decite a mile away.???????????

    Electric, hybrid and low-emission cars

    Yes, electric vehicles really are better than fossil fuel burners

    Hans-Werner Sinn’s opinion piece on whether electric cars are as climate friendly as they seem generated a good deal of controversy. William Todts, executive director of Transport & Environment, gives his response

    But this isn’t about Sinn. In fact, whenever you read a newspaper article claiming EVs are worse than diesel or petrol cars, that article will be based on a report that deliberately makes EVs look worse than they are.

    Usually the plot is as follows: a smaller petrol or diesel car is compared with a bigger, more powerful electric car; then the fossil fuel car is assumed to be as efficient as the EU’s official tests portray (in reality its fuel economy is always a lot worse); and finally the electric car is driving in a region with a very dirty electricity mix. Then you assume very high emissions for battery production based on outdated studies and finally you pretend electric cars don’t last very long and that its batteries aren’t reused or recycled.

    There will always be a new study with some flawed assumptions to keep us all busy and we could rebut these until we all drop. The advantage for the oil and diesel industry is that articles and reports, however poor, keep the controversy alive. Discrediting or distorting science is a political strategy, as Naomi Oreskes chronicles so well in Merchants of Doubt

    The rise of electric cars and green power are some of the biggest climate success stories of the past few years. It is the result of regulators in Europe, California and China doing their job and industry rising to the occasion. It shows what we can achieve if we set industry ambitious goals to clean up its act.

    That might not please some but it is fair, effective and, for the climate, unequivocally a good thing. As the Nobel prize committee eloquently put it: “Lithium-ion batteries have revolutionised our lives since they first entered the market in 1991. They have laid the foundation of a wireless, fossil fuel-free society, and are of the greatest benefit to humankind.”

    • William Todts is executive director of Transport & Environment, a European research and campaign group

  20. Eco maori 20
    27 November 2019 at 1:45 pm

    This is awesome building Wind Turbine Towers out of Wood another good fact to plant billions of Trees.

    Swedish company is building wind turbine towers out of timber

    It seems that you can build just about anything out of wood.

    While researching the carbon footprint of steel production for a lecture recently, I came across the line "it takes 200 tons of steel to make a wind turbine" – a justification for steel being green.

    TreeHugger Mike demonstrated this wasn't true, and Homer-Dixon wasn't too happy about it either, but the steel industry is still pushing the idea that they are essential to a green future. To which Swedish company Modvion says, Oh yeah? We can build a wind turbine tower out of wood!

    The wooden towers also offer additional environmental benefits compared with steel towers thanks to the lower-carbon manufacturing process. Lundman estimates a saving of 2,000-tonnes of CO2-emission per tower up until deployment. Plus, carbon sequestration in the wood offers the potential to make a wind-power plant carbon neutral.

    Ka kite Ano link below.

    https://www.treehugger.com/renewable-energy/amp/swedish-company-building-wind-turbine-towers-out-timber.html

  21. Eco maori 21
    27 November 2019 at 6:26 pm

    Kia Ora 1 News

    The increases in waste dumpling fees is needed Ka pai that construction waste charges will go up to I think a lot of construction waste could be recycled.

    YEA people should be aware of whats going down in Aotearoa.

    That's awesome that the Wahine scientists has found new backing to go and study Ora in the Ross Sea.

    Shows how strong the weather is getting worse because of global warming.

    Discrimination is sad it good that the 3 Africa Americans finally got some justice I hope they get compensation for the 30 od years of wasted time in jail.

    Ka kite Ano

  22. Eco maori 22
    27 November 2019 at 6:47 pm

    Kia Ora Te Ao Maori News.

    I think Tikanga Maori is the best way to get Maori and Pacific people into Whare. A big whare with the grandparents looking after the Mokopuna while the parents mahi is a great model.

    Tangata get Solar Power if you build it yourself it's only 8 k no more power cuts you will have to minimise your usage though.

    Tangata Whenua O Aotearoa Sports Stars awards there are heaps to choose from kia kaha.

    Cool having life jacket hubs to keep the people safe on the Moana.

    Ka kite Ano

  23. Eco maori 23
    28 November 2019 at 8:22 am

    Kia Ora Breakfast.

    That's correct Hone chemicals are still being used that harm Bees but not only Bees these chemicals are bad for every living thing. The reason that we are still using the poisoning chemicals is the multi nation company use all the dirtiest tricks in the book to suppress the factual data on the crap $$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

    I read that story on the Japanese lakes problems with spraying chemicals on their rice paddies. That's the power these companies have no monitoring of poisonous chemicals concentrations in Aotearoa WTF.

    I have seen perfect stuff that will be another person taonga being dumped???????.

    That's great the Gender pay gaps closing in Aotearoa.

    Mitchell you know exactly what's going down you we a cop????????????????.

    Be good Whanau the you NO my view on the system.

    Exactly its dog while politics but they are playing a flute to.

    Condolences to Clive whanau I enjoy his programs.

    Ka kite Ano

  24. Eco maori 24
    28 November 2019 at 10:52 am

    We must do everything we can can to minimise our Carbon footprint or we will stuff up our Mokopuna futures.

    Climate emergency: world 'may have crossed tipping points’

    Warning of ‘existential threat to civilisation’ as impacts lead to cascade of unstoppable events

    The world may already have crossed a series of climate tipping points, according to a stark warning from scientists. This risk is “an existential threat to civilisation”, they say, meaning “we are in a state of planetary emergency”.

    Tipping points are reached when particular impacts of global heating become unstoppable, such as the runaway loss of ice sheets or forests. In the past, extreme heating of 5C was thought necessary to pass tipping points, but the latest evidence suggests this could happen between 1C and 2C.

    Prof Tim Lenton at the University of Exeter, the lead author of the article, said: “We might already have crossed the threshold for a cascade of interrelated tipping points. The simple version is the schoolkids [striking for climate action] are right: we are seeing potentially irreversible changes in the climate system under way, or very close.

    Ka kite Ano link below.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/nov/27/climate-emergency-world-may-have-crossed-tipping-points

  25. Eco maori 25
    28 November 2019 at 11:59 am

    😇

  26. Eco maori 26
    28 November 2019 at 1:01 pm

    Here's another story about positive impact tree have on the Earth.

    Trees in the Amazon are the world's sweat glands – and 10 other essential climate facts

    You will not be surprised to learn that the climate crisis is a big and complicated problem. But when I started Not Cool, a Climate Podcast, I honestly hoped that if I could just talk with a few climate experts, we could clarify the facts and outline straightforward solutions. Thirty-one experts and 26 interviews later, I realize how mistaken I was, with more questions now than when I started. But I’ve also learned some amazing facts about how nature works, how humans work, and how to start addressing this crisis

    We need more mangroves

    Fortunately, nature provides incredible tools for addressing and adapting to climate change. Mangroves – essentially forests that grow along coastlines – are near magical solutions that came up in multiple interviews. They help prevent erosion and protect coastal regions from waves and rising sea levels. The trees are a haven for biodiversity, which could be partly why coral reefs seem to thrive in their presence. And mangroves also sequester a lot of carbon, which can help address both global heating and ocean acidification – an effect of the increased carbon in the oceans

    Forget geoengineering – we have forests

    There are two types of geoengineering, more accurately known as climate engineering. One highly contentious method involves injecting particulates, such as sulfur aerosols, into the sky to minimize solar radiation and decrease temperatures. The problem with this approach is that if countries disagree about optimal global temperatures, we can’t just suddenly stop the geoengineering systems, as this would cause global temperatures to rise quickly and dramatically. But if left unaddressed, serious international disagreement could lead to war. The other – far less contentious – geoengineering option involves pulling carbon out of the atmosphere. Though technologies for this exist, they’re not yet affordable or scaleable. But nature could again help here, as more forests could absorb more carbon, cooling the Earth.

    forests are useful because they pull moisture from the soil and expel it through their leaves, cooling the Earth just as sweat cools our bodies. So not only are forests vitally important for reabsorbing the carbon we emit, they also decrease temperatures. Unfortunately, many forests – especially the Amazon – face deforestation. Some researchers fear that if even 25% to 30% of the Amazon rainforest is cut down, the loss of moisture could change its basic makeup, transforming it from a rainforest to a savanna. This threat remains speculative, but is it possible we’ve already passed other critical tipping points

    Perhaps the most important thing to know about the climate crisis is that solutions exist. It is political will we lack. Many people worry about convincing climate deniers that climate breakdown is real, but deniers make up a very small percentage of the population. Our real focus should be on convincing those in power that the majority of us want to see strong political action. That happens when we talk to each other, when we talk to our representatives, and when we talk to our financial institutions. Individual climate action is critical, but this is ultimately a societal problem, and the solution must be societal as well

    Ka kite Ano link below.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/nov/27/climate-experts-interview-what-i-learned