Open mike 27/01/2020

122 comments on “Open mike 27/01/2020 ”

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1. A 1

   27 January 2020 at 7:14 am

   Good quality info from Chris Martenson on the Coronavirus…time to be alert and aware and start making basic preps (collect any prescription meds you may need, add a bit of extra rice/tuna/long term vege type things/seeds to sprouts to the shopping(. To understand that please watch this video where Chris breaks down what is actually happening.

   Most importantly note the 5 day latency period…so those boarder checks for high temperatures are pointless….those who have contracted it are already contagious but will not show any symptoms.
   • weka 1.1

     27 January 2020 at 9:19 am

     Who is Martenson and why should we trust him? I'm asking because I'm researching for a post on nCoV and seeing a massive amount of information that is imo untrustworthy. Social media at its worst.
     • Poission 1.1.1

       27 January 2020 at 11:57 am

       Conclusion: The mean estimate of R0 for the 2019-nCoV ranges from 3.30 (95%CI: 2.73-3.96) to 5.47 (95%CI: 4.16-7.10), and significantly larger than 1. Our findings indicate the potential of 2019-nCoV to cause outbreaks.

       https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.01.23.916395v1

       In simplistic words it has an infection rate 4-5x that of influenza.
       • Sacha 1.1.1.1

         27 January 2020 at 12:23 pm

         How does that compare to your eyes with the scientific source reported in media yesterday (did not catch name) downgrading R0 to 2.5?
         • Sacha 1.1.1.1.1

           27 January 2020 at 12:27 pm

           Trawling through this:

           https://twitter.com/search?q=2019-nCov%20R0&src=typeahead_click
         • Poission 1.1.1.1.2

           27 January 2020 at 12:28 pm

           It has a fat tail,hence as more data and mortality becomes apparent the infection rate increases. This is an increase on the model used yesterday but both are dynamic.The obvious apparent problem would be downplaying of statistics by PRC.
           • Sacha 1.1.1.1.2.1

             27 January 2020 at 12:37 pm

             Mortality rate seems untrustworthy, for sure.
         • Sacha 1.1.1.1.3

           27 January 2020 at 12:30 pm

           Ah, here's what I saw:

           https://twitter.com/JonRead15/status/1220749549318430721
           • Poission 1.1.1.1.3.1

             27 January 2020 at 12:42 pm

             Here is a paper on the risks associated with fat tails (on cv) and how standard decision making needs a little paranoia.

             https://twitter.com/nntaleb/status/1221486205847646208/photo/1
             • Sacha …

               27 January 2020 at 1:00 pm

               Thank you.
2. Ad 2

   27 January 2020 at 7:23 am

   All the world needed right now is for Trump to get extraordinarily lucky.

   A major disease outbreak is about as good an extended metaphor as one could wish for to explain the rise of Donald Trump against the Democrats.

   The U.S. Constitution is supposed to be the built-in hygiene mechanism that controls the level of filth that rise through democratic contest. The Democrats have faithfully used the United States Constitution to hold this damaging President to account. They assemble all the evidence into a good case, orchestrate the media into a fully focused antiseptic froth, get ready to take a few further points off his popularity and electability …

   .. and then there's a massive disease outbreak in China that obliterates the careful media messaging. Donald Trump is given a most massive gift by fate.

   He told us China was the enemy. He told us we had to put up barriers against them. He told us that even against China he would Make America Great Again … because this foreign eastern behemoth was a disease to protect us from.

   Whether true or not, the Chinese government can be framed up as lying, corrupt, incompetent, and unable to control the infectious idea of Being Chinese. They've got perhaps just the next 24 hours to prove him wrong.

   Trump will come out of this not only unbowed and unpunished, but vindicated.

   It won't win him the election, but it will underline that he was right all along: globalism and multiculturalism are disease vectors of cultural, ethnic, and economic weakness. They shall not pass.

   The effects of this Chinese infection will both blunt and reverse the Democratic effort to hold him to account through Constitutional means. It may even help re-elect him.

   It is the biggest piece of luck I've seen in modern political history.
3. RedLogix 3

   27 January 2020 at 8:13 am

   @ Ad
   More work along the same theme from PNAS:

   Abstract

   People who are more avoidant of pathogens are more politically conservative, as are nations with greater parasite stress. In the current research, we test two prominent hypotheses that have been proposed as explanations for these relationships. The first, which is an intragroup account, holds that these relationships between pathogens and politics are based on motivations to adhere to local norms, which are sometimes shaped by cultural evolution to have pathogen-neutralizing properties. The second, which is an intergroup account, holds that these same relationships are based on motivations to avoid contact with outgroups, who might pose greater infectious disease threats than ingroup members. Results from a study surveying 11,501 participants across 30 nations are more consistent with the intragroup account than with the intergroup account. National parasite stress relates to traditionalism (an aspect of conservatism especially related to adherence to group norms) but not to social dominance orientation (SDO; an aspect of conservatism especially related to endorsements of intergroup barriers and negativity toward ethnic and racial outgroups). Further, individual differences in pathogen-avoidance motives (i.e., disgust sensitivity) relate more strongly to traditionalism than to SDO within the 30 nations.

   Or put in simple terms, countries where there is a high disease and parasite load push the population toward more conservative, closed attitudes. It's an entirely legitimate survival strategy. Disgust sensitivity is tied into this as well. (Interestingly the Nazi's are well understood to have exploited this in their imagery, describing Jews in pathological or parasitic terms.)

   But in essence you are right, disease is our ancient enemy and it evokes strong emotions that won't make for rational politics.
4. James 4

   27 January 2020 at 9:12 am

   https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2020/01/duncan-garner-ihumatao-deal-to-be-struck-this-week-sources.html

   if this is the ihumatao deal – labour will pay for it in the polls.

   Jacinda is opened a Pandora’s box with taxpayers money on this one.
   • Incognito 4.1

     27 January 2020 at 10:26 am

     Well, somebody has to cut the Gordian knot to end the gridlock. Whether this creates a precedent (i.e. opens the proverbial can of worms) remains to be seen. Future Governments have no real (legal) obligation AFAIK to follow in the footsteps of the current Government.
   • Ad 4.2

     27 January 2020 at 12:40 pm

     If they can get it past Winston it will make for an impressive Waitangi Day speech.
5. Kevin 5

   27 January 2020 at 9:26 am

   I wonder if Duncan ever takes a break to clear the foam from around his mouth.
   • james 5.1

     27 January 2020 at 9:28 am

     attacking the messenger – not the story. How typical.

     How about trying to discuss the point. Like $45million of taxpayer money going to fletchers – and jacinda opening up the issue of maori claims on private land
     • Macro 5.1.1

       27 January 2020 at 10:14 am

       OK James. How would you resolve this particular issue bearing in mind the factors peculiar to this case?
       • James 5.1.1.1

         27 January 2020 at 11:33 am

         I would Have had the protesters moved off the land legally sold to fletchers.

         if they didn’t go – arrest them.
         • Macro 5.1.1.1.1

           27 January 2020 at 11:51 am

           🙄

           yeah that sounds like it would solve a lot.
           • Sacha 5.1.1.1.1.1

             27 January 2020 at 12:17 pm

             Would win all those votes from the right! Hang on, they'll vote Nat won't they?
             • Macro …

               27 January 2020 at 1:36 pm

               Yep! And piss off all those who actually wanted a fair settlement. But James and his mates would be happy – so that's alright then.
         • Molly 5.1.1.1.2

           27 January 2020 at 12:15 pm

           If that is your solution, then it shows you are probably unaware of the back history to this land. Including recent promises by Manukau District Council that were supposed to be part of the legacy package to Auckland Council. Also, the use of SHA legislation to bypass any reference to historical or tangata whenua concerns.

           What has happened is a foreseeable and rational response to the failures of authorities at both local and national levels to follow procedures set in place to avoid this kind of conflict. (The land has significantly increased in value because of the SHA zoning to residential. A benefit gained solely by the landowner, by a designation change from council and not shared in any way by the community. A failure to implement a capital-uplift tax by Auckland Council.)
           • Muttonbird 5.1.1.1.2.1

             27 January 2020 at 9:46 pm

             Good post Molly. In the current environment of pretty poor reporting it has been lost that the SHAs set up by Nick Smith overrode many concerns about the development of that land.

             Particularly dense people who look to Duncan Garner for their opinions will actively ignore the recent and not so recent history of the place if it serves to bash Maori protestors.

             The same people are incapable of realising the historical value of such areas, largely because it is not white historical value.

             To me, the current government buying the land off Feltchers is the price to pay for the last government’s naked recolonisation of Ihumatao.
         • Psycho Milt 5.1.1.1.3

           27 January 2020 at 2:05 pm

           I would Have had the protesters moved off the land legally sold to fletchers.

           if they didn’t go – arrest them.

           That'll work! That'll really work! After all, who remembers Parihaka or Bastion Point these days? Hardly anyone who isn't Māori, right? If only the current government's leadership had James' wisdom and previous governments' disdain for Māori, this could all have been sorted very easily…
     • aom 5.1.2

       27 January 2020 at 10:15 am

       Attacking the messenger??? More like a disingenuous message that needs to be dispelled. How about the line that Fletcher's had the taxpayers over a barrel and did what predators do? It would have been more helpful if the history, reasons and motivations behind the Ihumatao resolution had been explored buy someone with investigative and reporting skills. This would have been more appropriate than a political hit-job by a foam-mouthed, self-opinionated lightweight.
     • JanM 5.1.3

       27 January 2020 at 10:24 am

       I am just glad that we have a government with the ethics and courage to right this wrong. Talk of 'taxpayers money' is very immature – the government is buying back what it stole. Not only did it steal the land it sold it to private interests so the debt is theirs to repay. Fletchers seem to have behaved with integrity and have probably spent a lot negotiating this issue. Add that to the increase in the value of the land over the 4 years that they have owned it and what they are being offered is probably fair.
       • RedLogix 5.1.3.1

         27 January 2020 at 10:46 am

         Personally I think this settlement was a reasonable compromise in this specific case. But the word 'stole' could have a very flexible meaning; there are plenty of people who'd cheerfully stretch it out to cover the whole of NZ.
         • JanM 5.1.3.1.1

           27 January 2020 at 12:49 pm

           Not all – some land was sold and some given. This agreement does open up new possibilities for negotiation and having now the possibilities of a 'case by case' scenario is going to make it a lot more complicated but fairer.
     • Kevin 5.1.4

       27 January 2020 at 10:40 am

       We wasted $30 million on a referendum only one person wanted.

       I think this is good value for money.
       • James 5.1.4.1

         27 January 2020 at 11:34 am

         That can easily be disproven.
         • Kevin 5.1.4.1.1

           27 January 2020 at 11:47 am

           The referendum or the money?
         • Incognito 5.1.4.1.2

           27 January 2020 at 12:00 pm

           Go on then, James, disprove it!
           • James 5.1.4.1.2.1

             27 January 2020 at 4:11 pm

             I wanted the flag referendum also. So that was at least two of us.
             • Incognito …

               27 January 2020 at 4:36 pm

               

               This sounds like a wild goose chasing a red herring down the garden path about a false flag operation.
             • Muttonbird …

               27 January 2020 at 9:54 pm

               I'm picking you voted Black and Blue tea-towel and Black and Blue tea-towel just like John Key.
               • Anne …

                 27 January 2020 at 10:03 pm

                 Just imagine if it had won. A dingy, dull black and blue. So much for "the brighter future" Key was promising.
                 • Muttonbird …

                   27 January 2020 at 10:05 pm

                   Incredible a flag of such poor design was voted for by so many dense RWNJs who did so simply because they adored the corrupt John Key.

                   Lucky for New Zealand they were beaten in the end.
     • Robert Guyton 5.1.5

       27 January 2020 at 11:37 am

       "attacking the messenger – not the story. How typical."

       Hilarious, James!

       Haven't you just attacked the messenger?
       • Incognito 5.1.5.1

         27 January 2020 at 11:41 am

         James made a valid point even though it might be hard to swallow for some …
         • OnceWasTim 5.1.5.1.1

           27 January 2020 at 7:52 pm

           Yep. And some messengers come with EXCEPTIONALLY large egos.

           (I just broke a New Year's resolution. I'm now going to go flog myself)
     • Psycho Milt 5.1.6

       27 January 2020 at 2:08 pm

       attacking the messenger – not the story.

       If the messenger's an ignorant, racist blowhard peddling misinformation with a poisonous agenda, attacking the messenger sounds entirely reasonable. More to the point would be, how much of a sucker would someone have to be to lend credence to Duncan Garner's messages.
       • James 5.1.6.1

         27 January 2020 at 4:14 pm

         Along Garner racist just shows how stupid and I’ll informed you are.

         just because you disagree with him – doesn’t make him racist.
         • McFlock 5.1.6.1.1

           27 January 2020 at 4:53 pm

           Isn't Garner the dude who went to kmart for undies and got contemplative about the "changing face of New Zealand"?
           • Psycho Milt 5.1.6.1.1.1

             27 January 2020 at 6:02 pm

             Yep, that's the guy. Nothing racist about bemoaning all the coloured people you have to hang out with, right?
             • McFlock …

               27 January 2020 at 6:26 pm

               Certainly not, especially while overlooking the fact that his contemplation of this (oh shit, I looked it up again and he actually called it "a nightmarish glimpse into our future") took place in an aussie-owned store with a US brand.

               After all, he explicitly said that nothing in his column was intended to be racist. So that's alright, then.
               • solkta …

                 27 January 2020 at 7:16 pm

                 A minority of the Press Council only thought his expressed views had an "unpleasant "dogwhistle" odour" but were not racist in a way that broke the rules, so yes you must be right.

                 https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/99998249/majority-of-press-council-rules-duncan-garner-column-in-breach

                 (ie the majority of the Council thought his views were "gratuitous racism")
                 • McFlock …

                   27 January 2020 at 8:18 pm

                   ooo I either missed or forgot that ending to the story.

                   That'll be on his permanent record.
       • Jimmy 5.1.6.2

         27 January 2020 at 5:01 pm

         What makes Garner racist?
         • In Vino 5.1.6.2.1

           27 January 2020 at 7:05 pm

           2 hours after you commented Jimmy, and now your question is answered before you asked it, if one just runs down the thread… Tricky business, isn't it?
           • James 5.1.6.2.1.1

             27 January 2020 at 9:44 pm

             Might be a shock for people like you – but some of us had better things to do today than sit online waiting for replies.

             Beautiful day on the water today. Pity you missed it.
             • In Vino …

               27 January 2020 at 10:02 pm

               Too many assumptions there, numpty. Actually had a great luncheon with friends. And Jimmy's comment was at 5 pm. Your day on the water started then, did it? Try harder.
               • Muttonbird …

                 27 January 2020 at 10:17 pm

                 James left school at 15 so is not too clever.

                 [It was just a matter of time before someone would cross the line and resort to stupid insults aimed at James. Like it or leave it, James is free to comment here as long as he adheres to the site’s policy and rules. Please don’t do this (again) or next time you throw insults at him for no direct reason you will be receiving gardening leave – Incognito]
                 • Incognito …

                   27 January 2020 at 10:41 pm

                   See my Moderation note @ 10:17 PM.
                   • Muttonbird …

                     27 January 2020 at 10:43 pm

                     He can comment. I'm not the one who bans him…
                   • Incognito []

                     27 January 2020 at 10:48 pm

                     No, you were the one who insults him …
                   • Muttonbird …

                     27 January 2020 at 10:58 pm

                     And? He does the same with his soft trolling of In Vino at 5.1.6.2.1.1

                     James freely offered his unlikely past in a series of posts on 21 January 2018 when he was trying to railroad Ed off the board.

                     You are defending the wrong people I think.
                   • Incognito []

                     27 January 2020 at 11:15 pm

                     You are conflating two things here: me warning you about making insults and James giving a smart arse reply.

                     James has a reputation of being a stirrer and he has form. In fact, I left James a long comment about that yesterday, which you might want to read too (https://thestandard.org.nz/daily-review-24-01-2020/#comment-1681008).

                     As it turns out, you also have a bit of history here with flaming and insults. Coincidentally, your last ban (last year, 3 days only) was for insulting James!

                     As I said, like it or leave it, but please stop wasting my time. Thanks in advance.
                   • Muttonbird …

                     27 January 2020 at 11:28 pm

                     I've had two bans here.

                     The one you mentioned which was in fact because of impudence shown towards a moderator (trivialising Weka's authority rather than insulting James), and another by Weka for directly questioning James' sincerity on the case of the man who set himself on fire before parliament.

                     I guess the price of having a forum that is not an echo chamber is the moderators must protect stirrers in your words, or trolls in mine.

                     [please correct the error in your user handle; it has happened twice now. Thanks]
                   • Incognito []

                     27 January 2020 at 11:58 pm

                     You have had more than two bans here and quite a few moderator warnings.

                     Given your recalcitrant behaviour, I think that is low.

                     I am calling you out on your insulting behaviour and I am not protecting anybody. Moderators are not bodyguards but more like cleaners who clear up the mess made and left behind by others on this site.

                     Like it or leave it; this is my final word on this and I kindly suggest taking heed.
                   • Muttonbird …

                     27 January 2020 at 11:40 pm

                     I have corrected the error which was at your end.

                     It's a glitchy site.
                   • Incognito []

                     27 January 2020 at 11:43 pm

                     Uhuh
                   • Muttonbird …

                     27 January 2020 at 11:48 pm

                     Well, artifacts are constantly left and repeated in the username section which is, for some reason, not independent from the comments section.

                     But what do I know?
                   • Incognito []

                     27 January 2020 at 11:52 pm

                     Take it up with the SYSOP. Most seem to manage here most of the time but the mistake you made is quite common and often goes unnoticed for a (little) while, which wastes Moderator time.
                   • Muttonbird …

                     28 January 2020 at 12:05 am

                     I know what this forum is run on…

                     You might like to correct system caused username mistakes without fanfare in future.
                   • Incognito []

                     28 January 2020 at 12:06 am

                     Volunteers

                     Talk to the SYSOP
                   • Muttonbird …

                     28 January 2020 at 12:08 am

                     Volunteers

                     Me too.
                   • McFlock …

                     28 January 2020 at 12:10 am

                     Seems to work fine with firefox. What browser are you using, Muttonbird?
                   • Muttonbird …

                     28 January 2020 at 12:45 am

                     Thanks McFlock. It's a WordPress thing I think where a mistake in the username is repeated ad infinitum.
                   • Muttonbird …

                     28 January 2020 at 1:22 am

                     @ Incognito's oddly timestamped comment:

                     27 January 2020 at 11:58 pm

                     You have had more than two bans here and quite a few moderator warnings.

                     Given your recalcitrant behaviour, I think that is low.

                     I am calling you out on your insulting behaviour and I am not protecting anybody. Moderators are not bodyguards but more like cleaners who clear up the mess made and left behind by others on this site.

                     Like it or leave it; this is my final word on this and I kindly suggest taking heed.

                     I think I've had two bans.

                     So I have a problem with authority. What is a simple activist to do? Lie down and take it, I suppose? Where on earth would that end, George Orwell?

                     You can either accept my contribution to The Standard, or not. I think I make a decent effort in most of my comments but am called out on a few and that seems to define me according to yourself and Weka.

                     I'll work hard to conform to your definition of “smart-arse reply” which you seem to accept, and stick to that.

                     This grovelling approach works for some – I might try it! 😀
                   • Incognito []

                     28 January 2020 at 8:06 am

                     Your “grovelling approach works” but only just because it’s a lovely morning and I had a decent sleep last night.

                     You’ve had more than two bans but this is not important (I can provide the links, with time-stamps for your personal archive or trophy cabinet, but why waste more time on this?).

                     You have an occasional problem with your attitude and language when you resort to flaming and insulting, which has led to moderation and a few (>2) bans.

                     You also seem to have a problem with listening, simple explanations, simple instructions, and following clear and simple rules. I’d use a different word for that than “activist” and “recalcitrant” was possibly too mild.

                     Whether you continue making valuable contributions here or smart arse replies is neither here nor there for me. It’s up to commenters to make this a better site or turn it into sandpit full of petulant smart arses or foul-mouthed morons. The choice is yours; like it or leave it.
                   • McFlock …

                     28 January 2020 at 7:30 pm

                     It's a WordPress thing I think where a mistake in the username is repeated ad infinitum.

                     A few months back I had a plugin in FF that screwed with any website that needed a form, even though it did what it was supposed to do (text substitution).

                     Additionally some browsers on some operating systems can be tempramental.

                     Newer browsers often have a "safe" mode, where all plugins or add-ons are disabled. Try TS in safe mode, and if it works then some plugin is arguing with your browser.

                     Forms all work ok on other websites?
           • Jimmy 5.1.6.2.1.2

             29 January 2020 at 12:00 am

             I don't think Garner is racist. Wasn't his partner(s) a part Maori woman?
             • McFlock …

               29 January 2020 at 12:30 am

               No idea on whomever he shags.

               But the media council sure thought he'd expressed a racist opinion. Many people have their reckons, not many people have their reckons determined to be "gratuitous racism" by an independent panel that oversees their industry.

               The only other one who comes to mind for that sort of thing is David Irving.
   • Sabine 5.2

     27 January 2020 at 11:21 am

     unless he is foaming at the mouth he ain't gonna get paid.

     so yeah, he be foaming.
   • Incognito 5.3

     27 January 2020 at 11:54 am

     Unless he’s lathering up generously in the shower and eating or licking the soap, he’ll be frothing at the mouth, not foaming.
     • Sacha 5.3.1

       27 January 2020 at 12:18 pm

       Who knows what that guy has swallowed, really.
       • Andre 5.3.1.1

         27 January 2020 at 1:38 pm

         So it's about 50/50 on foaming vs frothing?
         • Macro 5.3.1.1.1

           27 January 2020 at 1:55 pm

           Probably a cake of Grandma Lye Soap..

           Do you remember Grandma’s Lye Soap,
           Good for everything in the home,
           And the secret was in the scrubbing,
           It wouldn’t suds, and wouldn’t foam,

           …

           v3

           Mrs. O’Malley, out in the valley,
           Suffered from ulcers, I understand,
           She swallowed a cake of Grandma’s Lye Soap,
           Has the cleanest ulcers in the land!

           https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdaeQLCTa6g&t=32s
           • Incognito 5.3.1.1.1.1

             27 January 2020 at 4:31 pm

             
   • Incognito 5.4

     27 January 2020 at 11:42 pm

     The initial comment @ 4 was about a potentially imminent breakthrough in the Ihumātao dispute.

     I think it is worth noting that many comments in this thread did not discuss the topic at all but were diversions about Duncan Garner being an alleged racist, about James, about the flag referendum and other unrelated and thus irrelevant things.

     Inevitably, it ended up with blatant insults with no constructive content whatsoever and almost led to a ban 🙁
6. Obtrectator 6

   27 January 2020 at 10:33 am

   Somehow I can't get terribly worked up about that virus outbreak. Its place of origin is one that winks at the sort of unhygenic practices around rearing animals, and selling them or their products, that we outlawed decades ago. They're reaping what they've sown. Yes, there might be a few deaths here to begin with, but we'll contain the spread all right.

   Personally, I find this more disturbing:

   https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jan/25/trump-legacy-end-of-trust-in-democracy-simon-tisdall

   Orwell wrote his best-known novel in 1948. Thirty-six years later, That Date actually arrived, but seemingly not its accompanying dystopia. The seeds, however, were already being sown. On by a similar length of time, and we arrive at the present day, where those seeds have germinated and are growing fast.
   • RedLogix 6.1

     27 January 2020 at 10:43 am

     It's my wild-arsed guess there is a 90% chance this new bug will mutate into something less dangerous fairly quickly. However there is a small but non-zero chance it could go badly pear shaped like the 1918 Spanish Flu.

     It's the Chinese Medical authorities, WHO and CDC who will do all the heavy lifting here. If Angola can contain Ebola, there is every chance China will get on top of this.

     But in a weeks time we'll know more about this virus, it's incubation time, it's infectivity and it's lethality. In the meantime don't get worked up, but don't ignore basic precautions either.
     • Adrian 6.1.1

       27 January 2020 at 11:27 am

       Hope so. In 1918 we didn't have gene sequencing to identify exactly where it came from, either the Krait or Chinese Cobra apparently,and effective isolation and containment systems and back then it was some months before they even knew there was a problem.

       A mate who has visited the sort of food market to the Wuhan one has said the bloody places are unbelievable, they have no place in the 21st century.
       • Sabine 6.1.1.1

         27 January 2020 at 11:46 am

         just for some balance

         here is a list of ecoli break outs in the western world due to lax business rules – i.e. self certifying. Just in case you like your romaine and lettuce and ground beef.

         https://www.cdc.gov/ecoli/outbreaks.html

         https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/5/5/99-0502_article

         Funnily enough, i have always eaten in food courts in asia when i travel and i never even had as much as a stomach bugling, however friends of mine who insisted in MacDo and the likes often came down with the runs. Go figure.
         • happynz 6.1.1.1.1

           28 January 2020 at 3:48 am

           Funny that. I reckon it sometimes may be just a change in the ecology in the gut, or something similar. About a month ago I spent time both in Japan and Thailand. In Thailand I ate from street vendors, in dirt floor restaurants with no running water, and other meals from questionable sources. Not a problem except for tender tushie from all the chili-laced meals I scarfed.

           Japan was great, but I did have one afternoon with a case of runny bum.

           The point is that even in ultra-hygeinic locations one can get a tummy rumbler. Although, to be honest getting a case of the Aztec Two-step is more likely in the less developed more free wheeling regions. Sometimes it's just luck.
       • In Vino 6.1.1.2

         27 January 2020 at 4:10 pm

         If I understood the news correctly this morning, the Chinese have warned that the infectious period starts 2 weeks before any symptoms show in the infectious person.

         If this is true, I think it is the first time we have struck such a virus, and with two weeks before the infectious person can be detected, we have absolutely no hope of stopping the spread.

         But – the second part is better: the virus causes fewer deaths proportionately than SARS did, and as viruses get better at spreading they tend to get milder in effect.

         So a pandemic will mean quite a lot of us will recover from an annoying mild pneumonia, but there will not be billions of dead.

         But did I hear that news correctly, and is the report true?
       • McFlock 6.1.1.3

         27 January 2020 at 5:10 pm

         Not to mention it got called "Spanish Flu" because the Spaniards were neutral and none of the warring nations wanted to disclose how many of their troops were ill.

         So they knew they had a problem, but it was a military secret and then everyone got shipped home around the world…
         • RedLogix 6.1.1.3.1

           27 January 2020 at 11:21 pm

           Yes, and people in Spain called it the Russian flu. Maybe we can call it that from here on in and everyone will be like totally impressed at how woke we are eh?
           • Poission 6.1.1.3.1.1

             27 January 2020 at 11:39 pm

             and then there is the sars research at the wuhan bio research facility.

             But worries surround the Chinese lab, too. The SARS virus has escaped from high-level containment facilities in Beijing multiple times, notes Richard Ebright, a molecular biologist at Rutgers University in Piscataway, New Jersey. Tim Trevan, founder of CHROME Biosafety and Biosecurity Consulting in Damascus, Maryland, says that an open culture is important to keeping BSL-4 labs safe, and he questions how easy this will be in China, where society emphasizes hierarchy. “Diversity of viewpoint, flat structures where everyone feels free to speak up and openness of information are important,” he says.

             https://www.nature.com/news/inside-the-chinese-lab-poised-to-study-world-s-most-dangerous-pathogens-1.21487
             • RedLogix …

               27 January 2020 at 11:55 pm

               Yes I've witnessed that extreme authoritarian hierarchy in action in the workplace. It's quite spooky when you first see it, for a few moments I felt I'd been transported to a Nazi concentration camp movie.

               Maybe that's why I'm so much less sanguine about the CCP's regime than Ad is.
   • joe90 6.2

     27 January 2020 at 11:51 am

     If only they lived like us.

     Cos west is the best, eh.

     /
7. mosa 7

   27 January 2020 at 10:42 am

   Some background on Bernie Sanders and what he has achieved in Burlington Vermont.

   " One of his main goals was to rein in real estate speculation and gentrification, to keep the tenants in their homes. In 1984, he established the Burlington Community Land Trust, which started buying and renovating rundown rental properties on the Old North End. The model was to rent them at fixed rates or sell them at low prices, while retaining ownership of the land and sharing in any value appreciation. Now called the Champlain Housing Trust, it is the largest such nonprofit in the nation and has 8% of the city’s housing units "

   Not afraid too confront the issues in his home town.

   "While he brought free public concerts to Battery Park on the bluff, Sanders also went on a campaign to stop noisy late-night college parties, even accompanying police to dress down the revelers "

   https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2020-01-26/presidential-candidate-bernie-sanders-burlington-vermont-hometown
   • Ad 7.1

     27 January 2020 at 12:49 pm

     Wait a minute, we are supposed to give this guy Presidential credibility because a trust he started three decades ago has been doing up a few houses in a town about the same size and global importance as Gisborne?

     Donald Trump and his dad were doing that for about the same time and instead of a few hundred houses, have turned it into a world-conquering hotel and resort brand.

     Seriously if real estate is touted as the killer move for Sanders, someone needs a strategy refresh.
     • Sabine 7.1.1

       27 January 2020 at 1:28 pm

       leave all that aside and take in this

       Now called the Champlain Housing Trust, it is the largest such nonprofit in the nation and has 8% of the city’s housing units "

       1. Burlington, Vermont Population 2019. Burlington, Vermont's estimated population is 42,899

       2.The ethnic composition of the population of Burlington, VT is composed of 35.1k White Alone residents (82.7%), 2.65k Asian Alone residents (6.25%), 2.32k Black or African American Alone residents (5.47%), 1.21k Hispanic or Latino residents (2.86%), 964 Two or More Races residents (2.27%), 109 American Indian & Alaska

       3. The Champlain Housing Trust, founded in 1984, is the largest community land trust in the country. Throughout Chittenden, Franklin and Grand Isle counties, CHT manages 2,300 apartments, stewards 620 owner-occupied homes in its signature shared-equity program, offers homebuyer education and financial fitness counseling, provides services to five housing cooperatives, and offers affordable energy efficiency and rehab loans. In 2008, CHT won the prestigious United Nations World Habitat Award, recognizing its innovative, sustainable programs.

       While a nice thing for the residence of the City of Burlington Vermont, its a sad indictment of the state of USA's housing policies.
       • Ad 7.1.1.1

         27 January 2020 at 2:05 pm

         I'm not sure how it indicts anything.

         At some point we're going to have to clear away this film-flam of the always-never-made-its and get to the main guy: What will Joe Biden Do as President?
         • Sabine 7.1.1.1.1

           27 January 2020 at 2:14 pm

           it shows that a tiny wee little town has the largest housing charity.

           that is the sadness about it all.

           I don't know what Jo biden will do as president. Kidnap babies at the frontiers and then loose them in the system to god knows whom? Install a global gag rule on abortion, birth controll, and such to please forced birther crowd? Remove any and all regulations on the environment to drill baby drill and mine mine mine? Play golf every third day on the tax payers dime? Start world war three?

           Honestly i have no fucking idea what Jo Biden would do, nor do i care.

           But if this is an example of Bernie Sanders will do, then he will have put his name to a charity that has 2300 apartments under its umbrella and it stewards som 630 occupied owner houses, in a town of 43.000 people. And the sad thing about this charity is that it is the "Largest Charity of its kind in the US of A'. Go figure.
       • Macro 7.1.1.2

         27 January 2020 at 5:37 pm

         Meanwhile Here is what one editor of The Nation has to say on Elizabeth Warren:

         Her opposition to Wall Street’s endless predations has also been consistent, courageous, and persuasive—and tied directly to her recognition that 40 years of growing income and wealth inequality won’t be reversed without the reregulation of finance. She has taken on not just bankers but also fellow Democrats, including Larry Summers, Tim Geithner, and, by implication, President Obama himself when he prioritized saving too-big-to-fail banks rather than stopping foreclosures on the homes of 10 million families. She played public and behind-the-scenes roles in crafting the still-unused powers of the Dodd-Frank Act to tame Wall Street and in creating the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, Washington’s first new (and under the Democrats, demonstrably effective) regulator since the New Deal.

         In her skill and dedication campaigning for other candidates; in doggedly shepherding tough, controversial bills through Congress; and in constructing a significant federal agency from scratch, Warren has demonstrated her ability to both win elections and govern.

         https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/warren-president-endorsement-2020/
8. Dennis Frank 8

   27 January 2020 at 12:47 pm

   "Nine days before the Iowa caucuses, Elizabeth Warren’s support among polled Democrats has declined from 21% to 11% since an ABC News/WashPost poll in October." https://www.axios.com/2020-presidential-election-poll-biden-warren-7dce6f94-7d30-4a5c-bab1-32dd15b8e09b.html

   “This poll was conducted by landline and cellular telephone Jan. 20–23 among a random national sample of 1,004 adults. It has a margin of sampling error of 3.5 points”:

   • Biden: 28%
   • Sanders: 24%
   • Warren: 11%
   • Bloomberg: 8%
   • Yang: 7%
   • Buttigieg: 5%
   • Klobuchar: 3%
   • Ad 8.1

     27 January 2020 at 12:51 pm

     I always liked the brainy chick. Sigh.

     Brokered convention anyone?
   • Dennis Frank 8.2

     27 January 2020 at 12:52 pm

     Focusing: "Ahead of the Iowa caucuses eight days from now, the NY Times says Sen. Bernie Sanders is "consolidating support from liberals and benefiting from divisions among more moderate" candidates, per the Times/Siena College poll." https://www.axios.com/2020-presidential-election-bernie-sanders-iowa-3a4357fb-5bae-4669-b885-6141e576823b.html

     "Why it matters: Sanders gained 6 points since the last Times-Siena survey in late October and now has 25% of the vote in Iowa."

     By the numbers:

     • Sanders: 25%
     • Buttigieg: 18%
     • Biden: 17%
     • Warren: 15%
     • Klobuchar: 8%
     • Steyer: 3%
     • Yang: 3%
     • Andre 8.2.1

       27 January 2020 at 5:19 pm

       What's the percent of undecideds? Still around 2/3?

       https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2020/1/11/21057416/iowa-and-new-hampshire-voters-undecided-2020-election
       • Dennis Frank 8.2.1.1

         27 January 2020 at 5:41 pm

         Seems to depend how they ask the question: "The Suffolk poll showed nearly a quarter of Democratic primary voters, 24 percent, are undecided. But the WBUR survey, which included so-called “leaners” — voters who initially say they are undecided but, when asked, say they are leaning toward one candidate — pegged the “undecided” number at just 5 percent." https://www.politico.com/news/2020/01/23/sanders-polls-2020-103084

         Definite age variation happening, and it's big: "Age has become one of the defining cleavages of the 2020 Democratic race. In the CNN/SSRS national poll — in which Sanders has a slim, 3-point lead over Biden overall — Sanders is the top choice of 39 percent of Democrats under the age of 45. That’s 21 points ahead of the next closest Democrat, Warren, another septuagenarian who appeals to younger voters."

         "On the other side of the ledger, Sanders is the first choice of only 16 percent of Democrats 45 and older. His strength halves again, to 8 percent, among those 65 and older. Biden, meanwhile, wins 33 percent of 45-and-older Democrats, and 37 percent of the 65-plus set."

         Those with a memory of how socialism operated tend to be biased against it. Those who like the aspirations in the mix tend to go for it…
   • Bearded Git 8.3

     27 January 2020 at 2:30 pm

     Bit of a shame but lets hope Bernie picks up Warrens 11%
     • Sabine 8.3.1

       27 January 2020 at 5:06 pm

       i don't think that the Warrens supporters are the issue in supporting whomever is the democractic nominee.

       How ever the same can not be said about Sanders supporters

       https://www.newsweek.com/bernie-sanders-poll-warren-biden-2020-nominee-emerson-college-1483831

       poll to be found here

       https://emersonpolling.reportablenews.com/pr/national-2020-biden-and-sanders-battle-in-two-way-race-for-democratic-nomination

       Five-percent (5%) Biden supporters say they will not vote for someone else as the Democratic nominee, while 9% say it would depend on who the nominee is.

       Among Sanders supporters, 16% will not vote for the nominee if Sanders doesn’t win, while 30% say it depends on the nominee.

       No Warren supporters say they will definitely not vote for the nominee if she does not win the nomination, but 10% say it will depend on who the nominee is.

       Forty-two percent (42%) of Yang supporters say they will not vote for anyone else as the Democratic nominee, while 9% say it depends on the nominee.

       oh well. Its gonna be a shit show anyways. Why not start flinging it early?
       • Nic the NZer 8.3.1.1

         27 January 2020 at 8:21 pm

         Seems to be a link between perceptions a candidate is (or has been) discriminated against in the primary and support for an unknown candidate put forward by the democrats.

         If these polls are indicative of couse than the rational choice is Bernie due to his supporters relative obstinance. Though I doubt US centrist pundits can draw the obvious conclusion.
         • Sabine 8.3.1.1.1

           27 January 2020 at 10:17 pm

           yeah,

           19% of Bernie supporters stating that they will NOT support the democratic nominee is ……….(insert what ever suits you).

           vs, no one from the warren supporters saying that they will NOT support the democratic nominee should she not get the tick.

           should be real easy for bernie to pick up warren supporters should he get the tick, but should it not be bernie we can expect 19% of his supporters to vote for the incumbent or humpty dumpty.

           Its gonna be a delightful shitshow just like the last time around. And we all know who won. So yeah, they better give it to bernie or else…..:)
   • millsy 8.4

     27 January 2020 at 7:15 pm

     At least if Biden wins the nomination, you cannot blame the Democrats for moving too fast to the left.
     • Dennis Frank 8.4.1

       27 January 2020 at 7:57 pm

       Yeah. It'll be Democrats being pragmatic. A vote of confidence in the liberal establishment. Biden the grinner, face of BAU.
9. Fireblade 9

   27 January 2020 at 12:51 pm

   Katyusha rockets have hit the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad causing multiple casualties.
10. I Feel Love 10

    27 January 2020 at 2:29 pm

    Astounding, wealthy, intelligent, privileged people can treat animals like this, the National Party link is neither here or there (other than a horrendous irony), & read how many chances the vets gave these guys!!! https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/119011628/national-mps-husband-son-face-trial-for-alleged-animal-cruelty-against-cows
    • Cinny 10.1

      27 January 2020 at 5:29 pm

      It's revolting how some people treat animals. National MP barbara kuriger should be ashamed of her husband and her son. If she did nothing to prevent them from treating animals so cruelly, she should also be ashamed of herself. And to think she is their spokesperson for Rural Communities. Taranaki-King Country deserves better.

      May the full arm of the law come down on them.

      In total, 74 cows were treated for lameness and 25 were euthanised.

      Infections in some cows were so severe they had spread to the joints, causing chronic septic arthritis.

      Gibson estimated the cows were lame for up to two months before receiving treatment, but others could have been injured longer.

      Veterinarians handed the Kurigers a plan to stop the injured cows from being milked. But, despite their injuries, many were still forced to endure the arduous walk to the dairy shed to be milked each day.

      “They were supposed to be in the paddock where… grass is softer. All this is unnecessary pain the animal has to go through.”

      According to court documents, when approached by officials, Tony Kuriger declined to be interviewed. Louis did not respond to requests for comment.
      • Sabine 10.1.1

        27 January 2020 at 6:28 pm

        treating these cows would cut into the profit. And yes, she is the spokes person for 'rural communities' and it says a lot about The NoMates Party that would nominate someone like her to be a spokesperson for rural communities.

        Hope the rural communties will wake up and tell her to get a job elsewhere.
      • Incognito 10.1.2

        27 January 2020 at 8:15 pm

        You may want to re-read the link in I Feel Love’s comment 😉
        • Cinny 10.1.2.1

          27 January 2020 at 10:12 pm

          

          His defence for the alleged crime is pretty weak IMHO. Will await the verdict with great interest.
11. Sacha 11

    27 January 2020 at 7:14 pm

    Virus update by NZ scientist: https://sciblogs.co.nz/infectious-thoughts/2020/01/27/the-coronavirus-outbreak-in-china-what-a-difference-a-week-makes/
12. Anne 12

    27 January 2020 at 9:29 pm

    The inimitable Gordon McLaughlan has died.

    https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/author-and-media-personality-gordon-mclaughlan-dies-aged-89

    I recall one of his amusing anecdotes from his early journalistic days. He was approached by the SIS who "wanted to talk to him". Curious to know what they wanted to talk to him about, he agreed to meet them. He was told to go to a Wellington hotel and knock on the door of Room 60. (I've forgotten the number so 60 will do.) He found Room 60 and knocked on the door. No reply. He was about to leave when a voice from behind said "come in". He swung around and a man was standing in the open door of the room on the opposite side.

    I wondered how he managed to open the door and check it was McLaughlan without making a sound. Maybe there was a secret peep-hole in the door that only the SIS knew about. 👿 Whatever, McLauchlan wouldn't do what they wanted him to do.
13. lprent 13

    28 January 2020 at 8:45 am

    Muttonbird said…

    Well, artifacts are constantly left and repeated in the username section which is, for some reason, not independent from the comments section.

    Because I wanted the site to be as open as possible and because I didn't want to spend time endlessly fixing logins or dealing with robots, I disabled them back in about 2009. Instead I put in a system to allow anyone to leave comments and maintained the logins for authors, moderators and the lucky few who already had them.

    However that meant that with every comment, the non-login author had to put put in their details on each comment – which slowed the commenting process. So I used cookies. Once you leave a comment on a particular browser on a particular system, I told your browser to remember those details on your client machine login, and to fill in the fields for you on that browser and machine whenever a comment was presented to fill in.

    Works well until the details get mucked up at the client side. Typically when pasting into the wrong field, which causes the mistake to reproduced.
    • Muttonbird 13.1

      28 January 2020 at 7:37 pm

      Thanks for that explanation.

      The issue seems to be that, of late, occasionally when I am merrily typing away in the comment box the cursor will flip to the name box without warning. I continue to type until I need to look at the screen again and find no words added to the comment box, but they have been added to the name box which I didn't think to check.

      I then re-type what got 'lost' in the comment box and hit 'Submit Comment'. The comment then goes out with extra words added to my username in the name box.

      Not sure if it's an issue with my machine.
      • McFlock 13.1.1

        28 January 2020 at 7:48 pm

        Is it one of those laptops with a touchpad below the keyboard? I always switch that off if I have a corded mouse – my hands hovering over the touch pad sometimes tap it and send the cursor funny places.

        ALTHOUGH:

        a good trick in a shared office is to put a cordless mouse usb in the back of a colleagues machine. Then as they're typing away just randomly point and click from your desk. drives 'em crazy if you do it subtly enough 😉
        • Muttonbird 13.1.1.1

          28 January 2020 at 7:51 pm

          Yes, but the mousepad requires a definite push.

          I've not been able to repeat the fault today – it's random.
          • lprent 13.1.1.1.1

            29 January 2020 at 2:12 pm

            McFlock is probably right. Mousepads are a nuisance when you're typing. Mine is turned off whenever I have a external keyboard/mouse talking to it. Which is most of the time.

            I usually do have a wireless K750 keyboard + a MX Anywhere in my pack or where I work. I have 3 of them – work, home, and pack. Solar powered keyboards are *thin* – sneak in the pack very nicely.

            Try the right side of the mouse pad. That is usually where they have the scroller option turned on. The option is often set to move fields when you use it vertically.

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