Open Mike 27/09/2017

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, September 27th, 2017 - 110 comments
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110 comments on “Open Mike 27/09/2017 ”

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  1. Ed 1
    27 September 2017 at 6:46 am

    Education groups pin hopes on NZ First

    ‘Education groups are hoping schools and early childhood centres will benefit from New Zealand First’s position as the party that will decide the make-up of the next government.
    The party opposes policies that many teachers and principals also don’t like, such as charter schools and the national standards in reading, writing and maths.
    New Zealand First also wants increases to early childhood funding, and a national hui to decide the 30-year direction of the entire education system.
    Groups such as the Principals’ Federation and teachers’ union the Educational Institute said many of their members agreed with those policies.’

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/340307/education-groups-pin-hopes-on-nz-first-mp

  2. Ad 2
    27 September 2017 at 6:50 am

    So awesome to see President Trump and his supporters and NASCAR owners and Fox news commentators being offended at people “taking the knee” in protest rather than standing to salute the flag.

    We’ve had to ensure a year of everyone with a social conscience being labelled “snowflakes” and “social justice warriors” and told which life mattered, and generally mocked.

    Trump and his supporters long forfeited any righteous capacity to be outraged.

    • Sanctuary 2.1
      27 September 2017 at 6:59 am

      As I said to an American friend of mine, if they didn’t get their knickers in such a twist over their hyper-patriotism then all this easy to offend nonsense would go away. Honestly, how do they manage to take seriously some local B grade musician giving their all to badly squark out the national anthem for the 1000th time.

      It is all nonsense, and I’ve noticed that American style rubbish creeping in here as well, with people putting their hands over their heart (WTF is that all about anyway?) to sing the anthem at All Black games.

      they are not very catchy patriotic songs. Get over them already!!!!

      • miravox 2.1.1
        27 September 2017 at 7:47 am

        What bothers me in NZ is the military becoming involved pre-game at NZ rugby internationals.

        And in the US, they’re not even talking about internationals – surely they should be singing State anthems? (of the advertising jingle of the chief sponsor)

      • Ad 2.1.2
        27 September 2017 at 8:08 am

        You can think of US patriotism the same way you think of spells from a witch. A piece of patterned material is attached to a pole. Everyone stands up. The spell in the form of the anthem is performed, and they all chant it together. They imagine as a result that the powers of earth and heaven are henceforth aligned by their common will and membership of the coven. Dumbledore would be proud.

      • Andre 2.1.3
        27 September 2017 at 9:44 am

        The flag and anthem brainwashing is state required and starts right at the beginning. I still remember having to pledge allegiance at the start of school every morning. “I pledge allegiance to Queen Fragg and her mighty state of hysteria…”

    • Andre 2.2
      27 September 2017 at 7:06 am

      A rundown of the tangerine toddler’s previous abject fails in interacting with the NFL.

      http://www.thedailybeast.com/donald-trumps-long-love-hate-relationship-with-football-and-pro-sports

    • Andre 2.3
      27 September 2017 at 8:27 am

      The best rant I’ve seen yet on the NFL protests (h/t Sideswipe in today’s Herald)

      • joe90 2.3.1
        27 September 2017 at 9:28 am

        This bloke.

        “I’m disappointed, Skip and Joy, because this is the tipping point. Of the 7,537 things that President Trump has said in the last 50 years, him calling an NFL player a ‘SOB’ is what brought the NFL, the owners and players together. And while some might be moved by the conscience of these NFL owners, it wasn’t their conscience that moved them. It was the cash.

        Because see Skip, what we know about people with money, they don’t like to be told what to do…they don’t like being bullied. You see, President Trump has bullied a lot of people

        https://twitter.com/SportyByNature/status/912337429683679233

    • tracey 2.4
      27 September 2017 at 9:13 am

      Have you seen Trump’s list of US Flag Code violations?

  3. Eco maori 3
    27 September 2017 at 8:47 am

    Big Upps To the Arab lady’s for winning the right.s to DRIVE You lady’s all around the World go get YOUR equal rights Ka Pai

    • Stuart Munro 3.1
      27 September 2017 at 12:50 pm

      You’ve got to be brave to drive in Saudi – road accidents are the leading cause of death. But Saudi is changing incrementally – the plan was made by the last king, offering free university education to Saudi women. The idea is partly that the generation raised by educated women will be more progressive. Trying to hurry change through this conservative society is fraught with possible points of conflict.

  4. Glenn 4
    27 September 2017 at 9:04 am

    Politics in NZ needs more political parties and a 2-3% thresh hold.
    Winston will one day go off to his retirement and NZF will take a substantial hit.

    We will be back at Labour/Greens versus National virtual FPP politics.
    For democracies sake the thresh hold must drop!

    • james 4.1
      27 September 2017 at 2:38 pm

      Got to agree with this.

      apart from the greens bit – there is a chance they will be sub 5% next election as well.

      • Robert Guyton 4.1.1
        27 September 2017 at 2:51 pm

        “As well”
        As well as what?
        They are para-5% now. Were you asleep for the past 4 days, James?
        The Greens are above and ready to govern. James, your fervent desires have been dashed!

  5. North 5
    27 September 2017 at 9:10 am

    Trust Audrey Young to whine about fake news to promote fake news. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11926822

    Next step, if she and her mates’ sense of entitlement-to-rule is ultimately denied, will be to accuse Peters of assault on democratic convention on account of something as base as utu. Ha ha ha ! They’re justified in regarding it as a ‘thing’. They and Audrey know what they did. Audrey troll should fuck off.

    • patricia bremner 5.1
      27 September 2017 at 10:28 am

      1000% She has looked sick at stand ups for Jacinda and Labour!!

    • Bearded Git 5.2
      27 September 2017 at 12:10 pm

      “The notion that Peters would be seeking revenge on National for regaining the Northland seat is ridiculous….Peters may have plenty of reasons for seeking revenge – but him losing Northland is not one of them.”

      Wishful thinking Audrey. Winston was looking at keeping Northland for his own and campaigned hard there; if National had really wanted him in a coalition they could have gifted it to him. Instead they did all they could to destroy him…again.

      Assuming 62-58 or 63-57 he will go with Labour because:
      1. Utu
      2. Better policy fit
      3. Time for change from tired corrupt government.

      The question is, will Winston allow the Greens into Cabinet?

      • BM 5.2.1
        27 September 2017 at 12:18 pm

        The question is, will the Greens tell Winston to go fuck himself if he demands that.

        • Bearded Git 5.2.1.1
          27 September 2017 at 1:19 pm

          They will offer confidence and supply to the Lab/NZF government. Anything to get the Nats out.

          • BM 5.2.1.1.1
            27 September 2017 at 1:39 pm

            They do that, then the Green party is pretty much dead and won’t survive 2020.

            Sitting in the corner out view while Ardern claims all the glory for pushing Green policy would have to be the dumbest political decision of all time.

            Greens need to be front and centre so people know good or bad that this or that is Green policy.

            They don’t do that, they may as well not even bother turning up to parliament.

            • McFlock 5.2.1.1.1.1
              27 September 2017 at 3:24 pm

              Thanks for your concern.

              Although the Greens nailed their colours to the mast years ago, people know why many of these policies have public attention now… and when in doubt, there’s always private members’ bills.

              Also, expect some measure of courtesy towards the Greens from Labour and even NZ1. Maybe the occasional Green bill put through, or even some seats at cabinet or associate jobs. Unlike tories, they know the difference between “friend” and “beholden sycophant”. They also know how to treat people with respect even when they don’t need anything from those people today.

  6. tracey 6
    27 September 2017 at 9:12 am

    I tend to agree wIth Fox somewhat. Labour played its part by deliberately only putting Davis on their list and only once he was DL. this cut down Maori representation in parliament and based on prior outcomes would send MP out of Parliament. Nats played their part by ignoring their partner and the MP, according to some of my friends on the Maori Roll ( who moved to GP not Labour for party vote) they thought MP was poor particularly in urban areas. One friend said ( by election day I couldnt name all of the top 3 candidates in MP.

    Perhaps Labour “owe” no one nothing. But life and MMP is about relationships. Relationships are about trust.

    English seems to be saying everyone forget everything prior to Saturday and then negotiate. That may be how foul play is dealt with on some sports fields but this is bigger than that.

    And we need leaders who are bigger than that.

    • Jenny Kirk 6.1
      27 September 2017 at 9:32 am

      Tracey @ 6 – you are mistaken about how and why the Labour Maori MPs were not on the Party List . They all decided independently that they wanted to be known as electorate MPs and went against Party wishes to take themselves OFF the Labour Party list. Kelvin David was reinstated onto the List because it is Labour tradition that the deputy leader goes on the list.

      And if you look closely at both the Party vote and candidate vote in the Maori seats, you will see that Maori people voted overwhelmingly for Labour in both. In other words, for the majority of Maori people – they were not impressed with the Maori Party – either because they were too close to the National Party, OR because they had NOT delivered to Maori people in the nine years they were in Parliament, and in the governing body.

      Those figures should be telling the Maori Party something – but I doubt they will either notice, or listen.

      • tracey 6.1.1
        27 September 2017 at 1:02 pm

        I get that emotion is high in the MP but given the size of the electorates maybe having 2 MPs for a few would have helped everyone. Hone and Kelvin, Tirikatene and Turei.

        IF it were in the better interests of the Labour Party do you think that decision by its MPs could have been overridden or do the Maori MPs always get all they want? I hope, for the sake of Maori people, it is the later.

        And Davis’s goading of the Maori Party at Ardern’s first press conference?

    • Anne 6.2
      27 September 2017 at 9:54 am

      Jenny Kirk is correct tracey.

      All this talk about Labour’s Maori MPs being subsumed inside the Labour Party is hogwash. They have their own regular caucus meetings which are not attended by anyone else. They decided to stand in their electorates only and not be part of the list. It was their decision and their decision alone. As Jenny has said, after Kelvin was made Deputy he had no choice but to re-enter the list at no. 2 because… them’s the rules.

      It washed over us Pakehas because it didn’t affect us, but I think Maoridom picked up the message inherent in the move, and that was… their first priority was going to be – and always would be – Maoritanga. That is why they flocked back to Labour in droves.

      • marty mars 6.2.1
        27 September 2017 at 10:46 am

        Hard to argue against that. The Labour Māori MPs did magnificently and big ups to them – their Mana is shining. They did the job and so far Jacinda is fully aware of this so good on her too.

        • patricia bremner 6.2.1.1
          27 September 2017 at 5:59 pm

          Don’t forget Andrew recruiting Willie to be campaign director for the Maori seats.

          Also getting Tamati Coffey to swap from the general to the Maori roll to contest Waiariki. The rest is history.

          We can thank Andrew for great forward planning and Tamati for his enthusiasm and committment.

          Andrew should play chess he hehe. Great game plan all round, and trust in each other.

      • tracey 6.2.2
        27 September 2017 at 1:04 pm

        Well they have a bit of work to do, especially if in Opposition. I am NOT dissing the efforts of the Labour Party MPs in winning those seats.

        My comment is related tot he greater electorate, the need to change a government and a move away from MMP thinking.

        “them’s the rules”. And is it a rule that Maori MP’s must stand in electorates and not be on the List, or a desire?

        • Karen 6.2.2.1
          27 September 2017 at 1:35 pm

          The rule is that the leader and deputy have to be on the list and anyone else standing has to get permission from the headquarters to remove themselves from the list.

          Labour Māori MPs standing in Māori seats requested to be removed from the list because of the nature of those seats – it was important to them that they were endorsed by the people they represent and this was the main reason they requested this. How do I know? Because I have spoken to two of the MPs concerned as well as other Māori who attend hui where these matters have been discussed.

          I should also be remembered that had the Māori Party got three MPs elected as some expected we would now be looking at a National government being propped up by the MP and Act.

          • tracey 6.2.2.1.1
            27 September 2017 at 2:14 pm

            Fair comments Karen. Thanks.

            And Davis being confrontational to the MP right off the bat?

            • Karen 6.2.2.1.1.1
              27 September 2017 at 3:01 pm

              I am not sure what you are talking about re Kelvin but if you had followed the Māori Party as closely as I have you would have seen that they have spent the last year slagging off Labour at every opportunity, and during the actual election campaign they indulged in some very nasty personal attacks and a lot of outright lying about Labour.

              I put the majority of this down to Tuku Morgan and I believe the best option for the survival of Māori Party is to get rid of him as president. As Morgan Godfrey said Tuku led a toxic and misogynist campaign. The Māori Labour candidates have actually been very restrained in response, including those standing in general seats.

              Personally , I am very pleased to see that there are now 13 Māori in the Labour caucus, and the large number of Māori at the marae where I spent election night were delighted with this as well (but not with the overall result obviously).

              • tracey …
                27 September 2017 at 4:05 pm

                I noticed that the MP publicly slagged off Laboyr during the campaign. However my recollection is Davis fired the first shot when he spoke during Arderns first press conference as new Leader.

                I agree @ Morgan. There do seem to be some deep vendenttas at play here which ill behooves the people they are serving. I do not expect all maori to be of one mind. That is like saying all women ought to agree.

                I just wish that MP and Labour could sort it all out. Sadly the one upmanship has led us to a place where we still havent achieved the goal of better support for our vulnerable.

                We need fewer leaders to be like paranhas at campaign time.

                • weka …
                  27 September 2017 at 4:15 pm

                  One could argue that Helen Clark fired the first shot 😉

                  But this year Davis’ thing was predated by many other shots fired on both sides.

                • Karen …
                  27 September 2017 at 4:29 pm

                  I assume that you are referring to Kelvin saying that the Māori Party would need to lift their game if they wanted to be in a Labour led government because that was the only thing said about the Māori Party in that press conference. That was being honest. Te Ururoa Flavell’s handling of the Te Ture Whenua Māori has been absolutely dire.

                  The Māori Party’s attacks on Labour have been vicious ever since Tuku became president. You may not have noticed, but I suspect you do not follow Māori politics outside of the election period.

                  As for Tuku, I don’t see it as a vendetta but as a power grab for his own benefit. I have been watching his behaviour for many, many years and do not have a single good word to say about him.

                  The Māori Party was rejected by Māori voters. I find it extraordinary that so many Pākehā still believe that they somehow represent Māori interests.

                  • Karen …
                    27 September 2017 at 5:46 pm

                    Also, Tamati Coffey was on the list because he wasn’t part of the Māori caucus when the decision to go off the list was made, so voters in that electorate could have got Flavell and Coffey. In Te Tai Tokerau they could have got Hone and Kelvin. They chose not to.

          • Frida 6.2.2.1.2
            27 September 2017 at 2:29 pm

            @Karen – tautoko

      • tracey 6.2.3
        27 September 2017 at 1:06 pm

        “It washed over us Pakehas because it didn’t affect us,” Is this what you really meant? or do you mean the media didn’t bother to get the facts straight?

  7. The Chairman 7
    27 September 2017 at 9:20 am

    Good to see Winston hitting out and proposing Large Company Corporate Reform
    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA1709/S00270/fonterra-ceos-outrageous-831m-pay-year.htm

    In comparison, and disappointingly, Jacinda only spoke on the matter when asked and largely rode on Winston’s coattails, agreeing with his proposal.
    https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/watch-its-pretty-extraordinary-jacinda-ardern-slams-fonterra-bosses-massive-8-32-million-pay-package

    Also disappointing, there was nothing (press release) from the Greens. Although, they did campaign on higher taxes for the top end, which Labour ruled out.

    It seems Winston is leading the way on this one, showing the left how to be left.

    The most effective way to deal to inequality is to tackle it from both ends of the pay scale.

    • tracey 7.1
      27 September 2017 at 1:07 pm

      I’m confused, should the Greens stick to environmental issues and stop playing in the other sandpits, or not?

      • The Chairman 7.1.1
        27 September 2017 at 1:23 pm

        No.

        But clearly the Greens need to up their game. They seem to be lacking the required effort, organisation and determination to see it through to the end.

        Why was there no press release from the Greens on this?

        Why isn’t Shaw publicly applying pressure on Labour do more? Why didn’t he bring it up (on Q&A) as one of the two things they would further push Labour on?

        From 25 seconds into the interview:
        https://www.tvnz.co.nz/shows/q-and-a/clips/james-shaw

        • tracey 7.1.1.1
          27 September 2017 at 2:16 pm

          Yes, you are right. The Greens arent doing what you want them to do. Bad incompetent undetermined poorly organised Greens.

          Feel beter?

          • The Chairman 7.1.1.1.1
            27 September 2017 at 3:44 pm

            Don’t you also want them to advance this cause, Tracey?

            Or are you one of those that are happy to lower the bar because you feel you can’t knock the team?

            And no, I don’t feel better because the Greens have yet to up their game.

            Are you seriously going to tell me you’re happy with their performance on this matter?

            They built up hope that someone was going to take on this cause and within a few weeks, Turei resigned. Despite having the majority support of her party.

            She relinquished a prime position from which she could have led this cause.

            And the other day she ran away from the media, instead of standing tall.

            What’s weird to me is why would those of us who support this cause lower the bar, accept and defend this totally piss poor effort?

            • tracey 7.1.1.1.1.1
              27 September 2017 at 4:07 pm

              What is wierd to me is how you twist things around so much so Greens and Labour can never be “right”.

              Out of interest who did you vote for?

              • The Chairman …
                27 September 2017 at 4:14 pm

                “Twist things”

                Me, really?

                Care to give some examples of where you think I twisted things in that last reply, Tracey?

                • McFlock …
                  27 September 2017 at 4:29 pm

                  Examples of you twisting things in the reply of 3:44pm:

                  sentence 1
                  sentence 2
                  sentence 4
                  sentence 5
                  sentence 6
                  sentence 7
                  sentence 8
                  sentence 9

                  Sentence 3 was merely a reiteration of your opinion, that’s why it wasn’t included.

        • Gabby 7.1.1.2
          27 September 2017 at 2:22 pm

          Sounds like the issue was covered by the others chairmy. The greens don’t need to chase every bus do they.

          • tracey 7.1.1.2.1
            27 September 2017 at 4:09 pm

            Apparently they do to satisfy chairperson of their organisation and commitment

          • The Chairman 7.1.1.2.2
            27 September 2017 at 4:10 pm

            It’s not just any bus. This is central to supposedly one of their main causes, Gabby. Yet, there was no press release.

            The money currently going to the top end requires to be subdued and redirected towards the bottom end.

  8. North 8
    27 September 2017 at 9:20 am

    Trust Audrey Young to invoke fake news in order to cement fake news.
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11926822

    Next step will be to put it about that a Peters failure to honour the National Party’s sense of born-to-rule-entitlement would be an utu-driven assault on democratic convention, and thus democracy. So Trump-like.

    Their fears are justified of course. They all know what they did. Audrey troll should fuck off.

    • tracey 8.1
      27 September 2017 at 1:08 pm

      Young doesn’t understand MMP. A singular failure in a senior political reporter I would have thought…

      • North 8.1.1
        27 September 2017 at 2:42 pm

        Young is dyed in the wool National. Her father and brother both National MPs. Poor Audrey’s dispositionally incapable of understanding anything which doesn’t invigorate her essential partiality. Accordingly there’s a measure of deception in her claim to the status of a senior political journalist. A pretty useless writer to boot.

  9. The Chairman 9
    27 September 2017 at 9:27 am

    Look at what repeated tobacco tax increases is doing to our youth
    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/340306/they-re-desperate-they-re-disconnected

    • Sabine 9.1
      27 September 2017 at 9:48 am

      homelessness, overcrowding, unemployment and underemployment are doing this. Cigarettes are just an attractive contraband due to its high cost it also has a high retail value. People without money will find ways to make money. Cigarettes at 15$ a pack will sell well in a market where the official rate for a pack is over 20$. I think they call it ‘free market’ and demand fixes supply or something.

      • The Chairman 9.1.1
        27 September 2017 at 10:37 am

        “Homelessness, overcrowding, unemployment and underemployment are doing this”

        Yes, they are playing a part. But the ongoing increases in tobacco taxes, thus the high price of cigarettes is further compounding the problem.

        The majority of smokers are from a lower socioeconomic status and continually hitting them with higher taxes is creating wider social harm.

        Labour have refused to increase taxes on the rich but seem happy (along with National and the Greens) to continue on hammering the smoking poor. This must end now. Otherwise it’s only going to get worse.

        • marty mars 9.1.1.1
          27 September 2017 at 10:47 am

          Do you smoke cigarettes?

          • The Chairman 9.1.1.1.1
            27 September 2017 at 12:00 pm

            It’s not about me, Marty. This is a national issue that is creating widespread harm.

            It’s a farce that those saying repeated tobacco tax increases is about peoples well-being when this so-called solution is resulting in people being killed and harmed. Causing more tax dollars to go towards cleaning up the mess the so-called solution created.

            • marty mars 9.1.1.1.1.1
              27 September 2017 at 12:04 pm

              Do you own or have you owned one or more dairy’s or retail outlets that sell tobacco?

              • The Chairman …
                27 September 2017 at 12:31 pm

                One doesn’t have to sell tobacco to become the victim of someone who can no longer afford to buy smokes.

                Family abuse, children going without, street attacks, car break ins, home and business robberies can (in a number of cases) also be related to the high price of smokes.

                • marty mars …
                  27 September 2017 at 12:40 pm

                  Are you involved with tobacco companies or law enforcement in any way?

                  • The Chairman …
                    27 September 2017 at 1:09 pm

                    As tobacco tax increases continue on, the upward pressure on law enforcement will also increase.

                    Money that will being going towards incarcerating and dealing with individuals could be money going towards healthcare, reducing the harm long waiting times are creating.

                    Indirectly, accounting for more harm repeated tobacco tax increases can be attributed too.

                    Tobacco companies should be looking at ways they can help absorb the increases, lightening the fiscal burden of their addicted customers.

                    • Union city greens …
                      27 September 2017 at 1:26 pm

                      Maybe these people should just get their bleeding priorities straight.
                      Price increases that see them choose fags over food on the table is not the fault of the tax but of the individual. We can get assistance from the quack to quit and minimise withdrawal, we can’t put a dinner or a missed breakfast back in our babies bellies.
                      I’ve been in the position before where the choice was food for the family or a 30g packet for the week. Hard as it was, I knew I couldn’t live with myself if they went without because of me. I knew every roley would make me sick.

                      I doubt these thugs robbing servos and dairies are doing it for the free smoke, they’re doing it for the cash they make selling on the black market. If coffee was an expensive commodity you’d be seeing the same low lifes busting starbucks. No sympathy.

                    • Union city greens …
                      27 September 2017 at 1:28 pm

                      Typo in the email address in the last post. Sorry mods.

                  • tracey …
                    27 September 2017 at 1:09 pm

                    chuckling

                  • Psycho Milt …
                    27 September 2017 at 1:24 pm

                    Do you smoke cigarettes?

                    Do you own or have you owned one or more dairy’s or retail outlets that sell tobacco?

                    Are you involved with tobacco companies or law enforcement in any way?

                    The idea that only direct personal interest could account for someone holding a differing opinion is an egregiously offensive one that’s a better fit on Kiwiblog. You don’t have to smoke or sell cigarettes to dislike the government fostering a black market for them.

                    • marty mars …
                      27 September 2017 at 1:31 pm

                      Rubbish, it’s your own bullshit mate and no need to show your nasty side numbnuts.

                      It is worth knowing the why these things are raised and ‘the public good’ doesn’t cut it for me sorry.

                      Chair can ignore or tell me to fuck off or you can as you so eloquently have lol

                    • tracey …
                      27 September 2017 at 2:17 pm

                      The price is irrelevant. The real issue is:

                      Why are the poor disproportionately addicted to drugs, alcohol and tobacco?

                    • In Vino …
                      27 September 2017 at 7:14 pm

                      Psycho Milt – unlike you, I see The Chairman as a persistent, long-term concern troll who claims to be Left, but is not telling the truth. Every so often he will urge the Greens or Labour to be more radical, and urge them to push a policy that will lose votes overall. Marty, Tracey and others are on to him. Hence Marty’s provocative questions. Just suggesting..

                    • Psycho Milt …
                      27 September 2017 at 9:59 pm

                      The price is irrelevant.

                      That is clearly untrue. The price is only irrelevant until the government pushes the price high enough to make a black market worthwhile, at which point dairy owners start getting beaten and killed for cigarettes. In that particular respect, it’s the poverty that’s irrelevant.

                    • Psycho Milt …
                      27 September 2017 at 10:02 pm

                      In Vino: when it comes to The Chairman’s constant concern-trolling about Labour, I agree. However, when it comes to tobacco taxes, TC’s points are correct. To disregard a correct argument because of the person making it is the very definition of ad hominem.

                • The Chairman …
                  27 September 2017 at 3:10 pm

                  @Union city greens

                  As we all know, it’s not a perfect world, hence there are those that don’t have their priorities straight. Therefore, policy needs to take that into account.

                  If repeated tax increases (far above the rate of inflation) are forcing them to now make that choice, then tax increases are playing a role in that decision making process, thus can’t be overlooked.

                  Seeing a doctor costs money too. And some don’t find any benefit from patches, gum etc…

                  Although you may have been in that position yourself, not everybody is like you. Some may resort to crime to ensure food is on the table. Which has a far wider impact on society as a whole.

                  There will be numerous reasons for why some turn to committing crime, but ongoing tax increases are a part of the equation. As the massive escalation in related robberies has shown.

                  I wasn’t asking you to sympathies with them, the victims are the ones you should have sympathy for. As tax increases have and are also negatively impacting them.

                  • Union city greens …
                    27 September 2017 at 6:04 pm

                    If bread, milk, cheese, weetbix, apples and spuds were being taxed to extremes, then sure, people resorting to crime to feed their children would be inevitable for many, me included.

                    But these are fags. No excuses for selecting the wrong option.
                    You can blame the tax on a habit that kills, but you’re wrong, wrong, wrong. Personal choice is the issue and it seems some just keep making the bad one here. The sympathy goes to those who are beholden to the greedy and selfish.

                    Tax on cigs isn’t going away. Smoke free isn’t going away.
                    It might seem hard, but some people just need to get over themselves and into a habit of doing the right thing.

        • Ad 9.1.1.2
          27 September 2017 at 1:20 pm

          Would be better to put distribution on the same level as addicts in controlled conditions. Dole it out from hospital treatment centres, and nowhere else. Not even inbound airport Duty Free.

    • tracey 9.2
      27 September 2017 at 1:12 pm

      Why is alcohol, drug and cigarette addiction higher in poorer communities Chariman? Coincidence? You going to make class As, Bs and Cs readily available ata good price too, and alcohol?

      • Brigid 9.2.1
        27 September 2017 at 1:34 pm

        “Why is alcohol, drug and cigarette addiction higher in poorer communities ?”
        Why do you suppose it is?

      • The Chairman 9.2.2
        27 September 2017 at 1:43 pm

        Education and escapism will be contributing factors.

        The high cost of drugs is one of the things fueling criminal activity.

        Taking the money out of drugs will remove a lot of the crime, thus free up resources to focus on those that have a problem.

    • Gabby 9.3
      27 September 2017 at 4:44 pm

      They should knock it off you know. It’s not good for you.

  10. dave 10
    27 September 2017 at 10:08 am

    Have to call out Hamish Fletcher’s Herald Article today as the very reason the trickle down concept and neoliberalism could never work for all in a progressive and modern society;

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11926843

    The ideology expressed in Fletchers’ article which attempts to sell the extraordinary annual renumeration paid to the Fonterra CEO as being acceptable is vomit inducing.

    And as for this BS from Fletcher and Fonterra….

    “Two payments – totalling $3.15m – were made under a scheme called the “velocity leadership incentive” and were due to performance in 2016.

    “Velocity was designed to achieve significant improvement in business performance by re-setting our business. It encourages a focus on generating cash, operational efficiency and an owners’ mindset to commercialise new ideas into additional revenue streams, faster than before,” Fonterra said in its report.” and

    The biggest chunk of Spierings’ pay was long-term incentives.

    I am in full support of the direction Winston Peters has headed publicly on this issue, and I hope that the shareholders of Fonterra, take the organisation to task over such rorting.

  11. Adrian 11
    27 September 2017 at 10:28 am

    in the Netherlands where Spierings comes from such remuneration is actively discouraged and penalised according to a rellie who is a senior police forensic accountant fraud investigator.
    I was surprised how little he was paid in the same job previously working for PWC.

  12. Barfly 12
    27 September 2017 at 12:58 pm

    I’d like to point out that as a result of Andrew Little’s decision to recruit Greg O’Connor and Willie Jackson plus the Maori caucus decision to be electorate only We don’t already have a 4th term goddam awful National government.

    Many here were unhappy with those decisions

    Those brave and wise decisions massacred Nationals sock puppets leaving only Act’s Rimmer standing

    Thank you so very very much

  13. Ethica 13
    27 September 2017 at 2:00 pm

    If the two seat Maori Party had got back in the National Government would be back in power already. So it is very good news for the left that they didn’t.

    • Andre 13.1
      27 September 2017 at 2:12 pm

      Strictly speaking, not true. The new government can’t form until after the final official count is complete and the writs returned, due on the 12th October. It’s expected that the special votes will favour Labour and Greens, so National is expected to lose at least one seat. Furthermore, at least one of the Maori seats would have come from National, leaving them one short.

      Nevertheless, your broad point that if the Maori Party were able to form a government with National and Act it would be doing so right now, is valid.

    • tracey 13.2
      27 September 2017 at 2:19 pm

      Given the MP kaupapa is a good fit with Green kaupapa and the number of maori mps in Labour, a better question might be…

      Why would MP look to Nats before Labour and Greens/NZF?

      • weka 13.2.1
        27 September 2017 at 4:11 pm

        L/G/NZF wouldn’t need them. L/G/Mp on their own wouldn’t be enough. I think there is a scenario where the choice is N/Mp vs L/G/NZF.

      • Barfly 13.2.2
        27 September 2017 at 5:11 pm

        Te Ururoa Flavell’s history, as well as his retirement speech tell me that the MP would have been with National quicker than you could say “bugger”

      • BM 13.2.3
        27 September 2017 at 6:49 pm

        Given the MP kaupapa is a good fit with Green kaupapa ….

        Why do the Maori Party have the ability to work constructively with National but the greens don’t?

        Maybe the Greens need to go talk with Te Ururoa Flavell and find out what the secret is?.

  14. ianmac 14
    27 September 2017 at 2:52 pm

    Greens will have a lot of power if NZF goes with Labour because they are essential for that coalition to exist. Greens could seek important concessions?

  15. ianmac 15
    27 September 2017 at 3:03 pm

    Winston holds up Steven Joyce on the plane. Delicious!
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11927019

    Winston to talk after 3pm. On now. Tells Media off. Very PMsterial.

  16. Barfly 16
    27 September 2017 at 5:50 pm

    “Peters dismissed any prospect of a coalition that would include the Act Party, labelling David Seymour “the most expensive beneficiary in the country”.

    OMG I need more popcorn!!

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