Open mike 30/09/2020

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, September 30th, 2020 - 111 comments
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111 comments on “Open mike 30/09/2020 ”

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  1. Andre 1
    30 September 2020 at 7:29 am

    A good comprehensive look at where things are at state-by-state for getting to 270 Electoral College votes.

    https://www.vox.com/21428915/electoral-college-trump-biden-2020

    tl;dr Biden is polling ahead of The $750 Man by more than 4% on average in states that add up to about 278 EC votes. That's the states Hillary won plus Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin. Polls showing Biden behind in these states are very few and far between, and only come from the most Repug-optimistic pollsters.

    Biden is ahead by around 2%ish in Ohio (18 EC votes) and Arizona (11 EC votes). Most polls show Biden ahead, but Repug-optimistic pollsters mostly show Shartacus ahead, along with occasional polls from more middle of the road pollsters.

    Florida (29) and North Carolina (15) average out either way depending on which polls the poll aggregator uses, but most aggregators put Biden ahead around 1%ish in these states.

    On straight current polling average (no toss-ups), it's about 353 Biden – 185 Palputin, again depending on which polling aggregator you're looking at.

    • Ad 1.1
      30 September 2020 at 7:49 am

      About 1% Undecided, and a pretty stable margin, shows that there won't be much more movement.

      I'd like to see IRS take Trump out after the election. And die in jail.

      • Treetop 1.1.1
        30 September 2020 at 7:58 am

        I wouldn't waste my time on Trump. I would put my time into stopping this from happening in the future as there are a lot of $750 Trump's in America.

        • Andre 1.1.1.1
          30 September 2020 at 8:08 am

          Well, yeah. There's a whole party dedicated to creating and protecting those $750 Men. And there's the other party that mostly wants to put a leash on them, however imperfectly.

          But sadly, there’s a sector of the voting public that professes to be against the $750 Men, but spend all their energies whining about those imperfections.

          • Treetop 1.1.1.1.1
            30 September 2020 at 1:22 pm

            How long have the $750 club been getting away with it?

            I don't like it and how to stop it is the problem?

            • Andre 1.1.1.1.1.1
              30 September 2020 at 3:13 pm

              How to stop it is a long slow painful process of being involved, and swallowing a lot of compromise and disappointment. It starts with getting involved at the party level, and supporting the candidate that is likeliest to move things in the direction you want, that actually has a chance of winning in a general election.

              Then when it comes to the general election, again it's a matter of swallowing a dead rat and supporting the candidate most likely to move things in a direction you want that actually has a chance of winning. Which may even be someone inclined to move things a bit in a direction you don't want, in preference to someone inclined to move things hard and fast in a direction you really don't want.

              What definitely doesn't work, but definitely helps the bastards win, is flouncing around whining about the flaws in who is actually your best available choice, which just helps your worst choice actually sneak through and get to do the damage that then has to be repaired next your preferred people get in, before even thinking about moving on to doing useful stuff.

          • Pat 1.1.1.1.2
            30 September 2020 at 1:50 pm

            Could it be that they aspire to join the club?

            After all 'aspirational' is abundant in the contemporary political lexicon.

      • Andre 1.1.2
        30 September 2020 at 8:05 am

        From a polling view, yeah, it's stable and clear. But there's still the open question of how good the pollsters' turnout models are. And whether they've maybe even over-corrected the errors from 2016, which would put Iowa (6), Georgia (16), maybe even Texas (29) and Alaska (3) into play. For over 400 EC votes to Biden.

        It might be New York State that puts him in jail first. They seem to be further along in their investigations. Presidolt Con's current audit problems with the IRS look to be resolvable by just coughing up $100million. But the IRS can always open new investigations, there's no statute of limitations for tax crimes AFAIK.

        Of course, the Fifth Avenue Fraud is very likely to get off completely scot-free for what he most deserves jail for: his complete betrayal of country, oath of office, and the people he is supposed to be governing for. Of whom over 200,000 are now prematurely dead from his complete disinterest in doing his job, among many other criminally negligent failures.

      • Andre 1.2.1
        30 September 2020 at 9:53 am

        Real Clear Politics seems to include a smallish range of pollsters that are a bit Repug-leaning on average. If you prefer to be a bit pessimistic so surprises are a bit more likely to be positive surprises, then yeah, focusing on RCP works.

        • Bearded Git 1.2.1.1
          30 September 2020 at 10:10 am

          Ak ok Andre….in that case it may not be the best indicator.

          Do you have evidence of the Republican bias?

          • Andre 1.2.1.1.1
            30 September 2020 at 10:30 am

            To be clear first up, I don't think there's bias in the sense of deliberately putting a thumb on the scales. There's a lot of room for reasonable minds to differ in constructing turnout models, framing polling questions etc.

            But then some pollsters makes decisions outside of what is generally considered good practice, such as Trafalgar Group explicitly operating a shy-Drumpf-voter hypothesis (although I've never seen what that means in actual practical terms), or Rasmussen Reports explicitly weighting by party identification (which changes at voter whim, unlike age, sex, education, ethnicity etc).

            RCP includes Trafalgar Group and Rasmussen, but there have been times I've noticed some particularly Dem-positive polls from apparently well-regarded pollsters show up in Five ThirtyEight that haven't showed up in RCP (sorry can't immediately bring to mind which ones).

            In general, it appears poll averages from 538, 270 to Win, CNN etc are a little bit Dem-positive compared to RCP. That's not to say RCP is worse and the others are better, it may indeed be that RCP has made a better choice of which pollsters to include in their average.

    • AB 1.3
      30 September 2020 at 12:16 pm

      Among the unknowns then are:

      • Voter suppression in the form of prior electoral roll purging by Republican-run state governments and the removal of physical voting booths in Democratic voting areas
      • Trump goons intimidating voters at booths
      • Delays in counting mail-in votes inflaming a narrative that the election is being 'stolen' and calls, or direct action, on stopping that count.
      • The Supreme Court's preparedness to tip the scales in Trumps favour if given the chance,e.g by stopping the count of mail-in votes, or allowing the dumping of special votes by people turning up to find themselves purged from the roll.

      It has the potential to make the supposed, and sometimes invented, irregularities in Latin American elections that gets the USA so outraged, look like amateur hour.

      • Andre 1.3.1
        30 September 2020 at 3:04 pm

        Well, yeah, there is the assumption that bad faith actions won't be much worse than anything previously seen in, oh, the last hundred years or so. Which is looking like a really iffy assumption, so the question is whether a Biden win would be sufficiently clear and conclusive to overcome all the expected fuckery.

    • Treetop 1.4
      30 September 2020 at 7:00 pm

      Do you know if the EC votes are not equally distributed among the states when it comes to population?

      I think I heard this.

      • Andre 1.4.1
        30 September 2020 at 7:24 pm

        Each state gets one Electoral College vote per member of Congress. So low population states like Wyoming or Alaska get 3 EC votes, one for their sole House Representative, and two for their two Senators. (Washington DC also gets 3 EC votes by special provision, even though it doesn't get voting members of Congress). That's one EC vote per 200,000ish population.

        At the other end of the population range, Californai gets 55 EC votes for its 40 million population, 53 for its 53 House Reps, and two for its two Senators. Which is around 1 EC vote per 700,000ish population.

        There's a good chart if you scroll down the wikipedia article – for some reason embedding the image doesn't seem to work.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Electoral_College

        edit: and the three million American citizens living in Puerto Rico don’t get to vote for prez or be represented in Congress. Cos PR is a territory, not a state

  2. PsyclingLeft.Always 2
    30 September 2020 at 7:38 am

    "The $750 Man" : )

  3. Reality 3
    30 September 2020 at 8:08 am

    Judith Collins, who takes malicious delight in attacking others, is upset Jacinda referenced her history with the SFO (poor wee thing). I was delighted to see Jacinda's 'forthright' comment on the news reminding people of this.

    Like all bullies, Collins is happy to dish it out though. Perhaps if she can't take the heat in the kitchen she shouldn't be there, to quote Collins' words on Jacinda.

    If anyone has dealt with the heat in the kitchen in the last three years, it is our PM – terrorist shootings, a volcanic eruption, months of Covid worries. And becoming a new mum while being PM is no small feat.

    • Byd0nz 3.1
      30 September 2020 at 9:35 am

      It seems it was hard for Collins to get under Jacindas skin on the last debate. It would not be hard to get under Collins skin as seen by her response to Jacindas comment.

    • Anne 3.2
      30 September 2020 at 10:06 am

      Talking of bullies: read this number from the Herald:

      https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12369031

      And this from RNZ Morning report:

      https://www.rnz.co.nz/audio/player?audio_id=2018766202

      2:15 mins – another vicious attack on Nicky Hager.

      8:30 mins – claims Labour has no fiscal plans and don’t intend to put one out. So, what has Robertson and Co. been doing and saying for the past 3 years? Nothing? What about the plethora of policy they’ve been dishing out in recent times? That doesn’t constitute a plan?

      She even had the gall to try and infer this government is to blame for the current state of the Auckland Harbour Bridge.

      She’s well and truly heading for lala land based on today’s rhetoric thus far.

      • Morrissey 3.2.1
        30 September 2020 at 11:08 am

        She kept saying: "That's what Christians believe… I'm a Christian… That's what Christians believe…"

        Does anyone else get the impression this desperate woman is fishing desperately for the loons in the Billy T.K. Party to "come on board" her sinking boat?

        • greywarshark 3.2.1.1
          30 September 2020 at 1:00 pm

          To put the above in context, Collins is so slippery, it started off with her saying that Nicky Hager was a terrible man and making herself out to be an innocent victim, and then saying that one day he'll meet his Maker.

          When questioned on that she went round and round like dirty water down a plughole, saying that everyone will meet their Maker one day, she is sure on that point. Then being questioned as to the reference sounding rather threatening, she just fudged again and made it into a Christian POV that everyone will die and meet their Maker.

          I'm uneasy that religion is popping up in the discourse from National. It seems that the Right are finding that references like this reinforce their probity in the minds of dull, unthinking constituents of which there are many.

          There is a post now by Micky devoted to this discussion over at – Judith Collins, Nicky Hager and Dirty Politics.

          • woodart 3.2.1.1.1
            30 September 2020 at 2:07 pm

            dont think the natz pollsters are earning their $$$ if they think appealing to religios is the way to redemption. a secular country going even more secular is going to turn even further away from the natz towards their one time poodle. for all of acts faults(page not big enough to list) they are NOT religious(only the religion of self interest) with the nats, advance, and new cons all claiming gods on their side, good luck with that..!oops, forgot bishop brian, phuck, god will be busy..

            • greywarshark 3.2.1.1.1.1
              30 September 2020 at 2:30 pm

              edit
              You might think that is the rational way that citizens will behave woodart, that is for you to say. They might regard religion as meaning traditional sects. But don't forget Glorioushome or what it's called. People are being pulled to churches all over the place, if they aren't drowning themselves in beer or drugs, or using sport to control their random thoughts. Every second child is called Elijah or Rebecca or similar.

              Natz may be very happy to go to a church with bells and whistles and incense and a huge choir. All the people who can’t manage to achieve their eminence will be put on charity, the government doesn’t want to bother with losers. They will hand out potato peelings for soup and feel satisfied and good to their marrow. That’s how it used to be and once you accept that people are either good or part of the poor that will always be with us, then you can stop trying to force people up beyond their actual capacities that establish them as lower class. This is how some will already be talking – the real estate class who think themselves terribly clever at being able to sell secure assets to people prepared to dispossess most of the world’s population.

              The worse things get the more people will be drawn to something. Possibly the Conspiracy Theory party. In the USA they are touting that there will be Trump Goons at the polls etc. Shades of 1930's Germany when people's minds were played with. People aren't happy – alt right, Billy K whatever can fill up empty minds. Take away television for a night and people will be running to the Children of Light or such – Scientology is building a new place here I think.

              • Draco T Bastard …
                30 September 2020 at 3:36 pm

                if they aren't drowning themselves in beer or drugs, or using sport to control their random thoughts.

                And that's the second time that you've said that the non-religious are drug and sports addicts without any proof.

                • woodart …
                  30 September 2020 at 3:47 pm

                  yes, around my way, most seem addicted to lawn mowing on sundays.

                • greywarshark …
                  30 September 2020 at 4:02 pm

                  And why do you need proof? Do you belong to some sort of religious terrorist group which will go and round them all up and kneel for hours on hard boards while they sing rousing songs? Shame on you.

                  • Draco T Bastard …
                    30 September 2020 at 4:09 pm

                    And why do you need proof?

                    Because otherwise its a fucken lie and you are simply lying.

                    • greywarshark …
                      30 September 2020 at 4:42 pm

                      That is really stupid DTB. You are getting fixated on your opinions and arguments as you have got older. People can know things from their memory and not be able to give details of why and when. People can also know things generally and widely that commonly apply, just not to everybody. And you can just calm down and try and remain rational.

                  • Draco T Bastard …
                    30 September 2020 at 5:49 pm

                    People can know things from their memory and not be able to give details of why and when.

                    No, they really can't. People's memories simply aren't up to the job:

                    Unreliable Memory: It Makes Things Up

                    He has told people a story about how his helicopter was hit by a rocket-propelled grenade when covering the war in Iraq. However, the fact is that the helicopter he was in was not the one got hit. Also, when the strike happened, his helicopter was an hour away from the strike location. His experience shows a part of the unreliability of human memory.
                    Elizabeth Loftus, a professor the at the University of California who experted in human memory, calls William’s story a “teaching mement,” which is a typical example of false memory. According to her, false memory happens when a person “remembers” something happened that actually did not.

                    People can also know things generally and widely that commonly apply, just not to everybody.

                    No, they can't. That would require you to know stuff that you haven't been taught or researched.

                    And you can just calm down and try and remain rational.

                    I'm perfectly rational in calling you a liar because you're lying. You have absolutely no idea how people spend their time as a result of them not being religious.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      30 September 2020 at 6:24 pm

                      "You have absolutely no idea how people spend their time as a result of them not being religious."

                      DtB, couldn't your strong assertion (above) also be considered a lie? After all, presumably greywarshark has some idea of how some non-religious people spend some of their time. Heck, I know hardly anyone, and yet your statement would still be a lie if I was its target wink

                    • Draco T Bastard …
                      30 September 2020 at 9:09 pm

                      greywarshark's assertion is on the same level as calling all Māori slackers because some do drugs and don't work on Saturdays.

                      And, here's a thing, I know plenty of religious people who act exactly as greywarshark says non-religious people act. Get a heap of drugs and watch sport on TV.

      • Tony Veitch (not etc.) 3.2.2
        30 September 2020 at 11:37 am

        OMG, she's even beginning to sound like Muldoon as I remember him on the RNZ interview. Scary!

      • greywarshark 3.2.3
        30 September 2020 at 12:41 pm

        Judith Collins and the Eyebrows and Kate Hawkesby (could be called The Palomino Pony) on NZ Herald link above.

  4. Andre 4
    30 September 2020 at 8:30 am

    There's an argument the satsuma shitgibbon really is a genius – at suckering a significant number of people into believing the hype he creates about himself.

    Consider, for at least the last three decades, the only ventures that have apparently created positive cash-flow for him are those where someone else has paid him for use of that self-hype. The Apprentice, various licensing deals. Everything else he touched apparently turned to shit, from which he sometimes salvaged a bit by fleecing suckers hoping to cash in on the hype as they disappear down the gurgler – eg his casinos, and now, running the country.

    https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/09/29/the-new-york-times-confirms-trump-is-a-genius-422837

    https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2020/09/why-is-donald-trump-deliberately-losing-money/

    • gsays 4.1
      30 September 2020 at 9:02 am

      He is certainly good at getting plenty of attention and column inches devoted to his every action/inaction.

      He has folks wrapped around his little finger.

      Whatever we give our attention to gets stronger.

      On a related note, Beau here links Hunter Thompson and post election activities.
      https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=abqyq6cs0eo

      • Andre 4.1.1
        30 September 2020 at 9:19 am

        He is certainly good at getting plenty of attention and column inches devoted to his every action/inaction.

        That kinda happens when someone is the leader leader of a big powerful country and devotes himself, well, what little effort isn't spent on serving himself, to actively destroying much of what a majority of that country and indeed the rest of the world holds dear. After he's surrounded himself with enablers that share his destructive goals.

        And no, ignoring it won't make it go away or even make it a teeny-tiny bit better. Nor will deluding oneself that his opponents are somehow equivalent.

  5. greywarshark 5
    30 September 2020 at 9:15 am

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/427208/regional-pasifika-churches-receive-10m-from-pgf

    I hope that the attitude of government after Treaty settlements is not that Maori people generally are not going to be considered much by government, and they should look to their own iwi for support. The Treaty settlements were to recompense, to a small extent, for the land and resources taken from Maori which the NZ state was built on.

    So I hope that there is $10 million or more going to Maori initiatives in the region, not necessarily for the built infrastructure, but in training, skills learning. And I would like to see it being family oriented so that older members could join as students if they wished, so all would learn as a cohesive group. Because I think that there is a family way of looking at life planning, and parents are more likely to support their teenagers into skill learning if they themselves have background in post-school education.

  6. greywarshark 6
    30 September 2020 at 9:21 am

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2018765675/rise-of-nz-mma-reaches-new-high-at-ufc-253

    What is MMA? Increasing use of code letters for actual words, prevents effective communication. No explanation in the script.

  7. Andre 7
    30 September 2020 at 9:39 am

    Yet another reason the US supreme Court badly needs reform because of how unrepresentative it is: after Barrett is rammed through, it will be 2/3 Roman Catholic.

    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/9/29/1981656/-A-Curious-Demographic-Fact-About-the-SCOTUS-It-is-Dominated-by-a-Single-Religion

    • greywarshark 7.1
      30 September 2020 at 9:56 am

      That recalls to mind a Sharon Murdoch cartoon (stuff Sep.25/19) about NZ religion with wise old Yoda saying 'Religious we are not'. 50% of NZ stated No Religion in a survey. The Catholics get and hold their congregations by hook or by crook – of The Good Shepherd I mean.

      The irreligious may not fill the gap with any value-based morality, rather spending Sundays at sport, drinking beer, driving 4-wheel drives through mud pugs, up rivers – very physically oriented with no exercise of intellectual or philosophical function. So other details from the NZ study:

      20,409 said they were Jedi
      4248 were in The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

      • Draco T Bastard 7.1.1
        30 September 2020 at 12:42 pm

        The irreligious may not fill the gap with any value-based morality, rather spending Sundays at sport, drinking beer, driving 4-wheel drives through mud pugs, up rivers – very physically oriented with no exercise of intellectual or philosophical function.

        1. Citation needed
        2. Haven't come across a religion yet that's values based – except possibly wicca with its an it harm none, do as thou wilt.
    • Gabby 7.2
      30 September 2020 at 9:56 am

      The latest Scrotus nominee is just another shade of Mammonite by the sound of t.

    • Dennis Frank 7.3
      30 September 2020 at 10:47 am

      Design or accident? There's a little-known conspiracy theory around this. It has been provided with considerable historical documentation.

      My view of the catholic church was always that it was a sick joke discredited by history, until I eventually read my copy of this book: https://www.amazon.com/Rulers-Evil-Useful-Knowledge-Governing/dp/0066210836

      The author dug deep & zealously into the background of history, so you encounter a stream of surprising facts unlikely to impress casual readers. Only works for those with a deep grasp of history – if it fits into that context. As someone who has read history in-depth for around 65 years, I was pleasantly surprised at how well-justified his compilation of evidence turned out to be.

      Note the amusing verdict of Publisher's Weekly – obviously written by a catholic! Too lazy to read history, uses normalcy as a security blanket due to being at the toddler stage of emotional maturity…

      That said, I can always tell when a belief is warping a writer's judgment, and Saussy skates on thin ice at times. But he does seem diligent at dispassionate appraisal.

      Winning the presidency for JFK was the culmination of a centuries-old agenda, in which a global power began in new terrain from a position of uncharacteristic powerlessness and extreme adversity. The account of methods used to overturn that historical reality is compelling. The current Supreme Court situation fits the thesis like a glove.

  8. Sabine 8
    30 September 2020 at 9:47 am

    So i am not wasting your time, you are wasting it all on your own, as you could easily have simply scrolled by my comment, which is on topic, without insults to anyone, and not deragotry by any means. But feel free to ban me for not promoting some fancyful ideas of the Green that i find to be half baked.

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    [No Sabine, as a moderator I can’t simply scroll by. If mods did that on every problematic comment, the site would stop functioning.

    As well as wasting my time, you’re also now posting bullshit about moderation and my motivations. I want critique of GP policy, because it makes it and democracy stronger. I wish more people would give us useful critique. What you posted was sloppy and misleading. I can’t stop people being sloppy, but there is a bottom line around not misleading. You’re not being modded for your opinions about the Greens’ policy, you’re being modded for posting misleading comments about the policy during an election campaign. Had you backed up your comment, we’d be having a different conversation, but you won’t even do us the respect of that.

    You either have a comprehension problem, or you are basically saying fuck you to the site and moderation and thinking you can do what you want.

    You have a choice now. Either do what most people do and get on board with the way commenting works here, including moderation, or you can expect to be treated as a special case. If you want to be a special case, my next move will most likely be to ban you until after the election, because I’m not willing to spend my time going over and over this, I’d rather be writing posts.

    Banned until Monday – weka].

  9. Sabine 9
    30 September 2020 at 9:48 am

    read, and left you an aswer. cheers.
    and i would have preferred to leave my comments so that i can provide back up. I am usually good with links.

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    • weka 9.1
      30 September 2020 at 10:10 am

      you were asked to back up this sentence, which is still visible.

      "so if you are over 18 or say 18 and a day – money or not – no more free public transport."

      You chose not to. Hence the further moderation.

  10. Tricledrown 10
    30 September 2020 at 10:02 am

    Collins tries to brush off the meet your maker comment by adding a different line to her original threat .

    Still trying to put down Nicky Hager for exposing Dirty Politics.

  11. Pat 11
    30 September 2020 at 10:07 am

    Brilliant piece at The Civilian this morning

    “Listen, if I pick up a bag of $1,000 cash in the South Island and I deposit that into a private bank account and wire the money to another private bank account in the North Island, and then someone else withdraws that $1,000 from a relatively unfrequented ATM at 2am in the morning, is that money the same money? How did it magically teleport from island to island? The answer is it didn’t, because it isn’t the same money. It’s separate.”

    http://www.thecivilian.co.nz/two-people-in-serious-condition-after-incident-involving-nz-first-bus/

    remember to look both ways when crossing bus lanes.

  12. Morrissey 12
    30 September 2020 at 10:49 am

    Aaron Maté testifies at UN on OPCW Syria cover-up

    Sept. 29, 2020

    Excellencies, Ladies and Gentlemen,

    [deleted]

    https://thegrayzone.com/2020/09/29/grayzones-aaron-mate-testifies-at-un-on-opcw-syria-cover-up/

    [too long Morrissey. If you do your own editing next time it will work out better – weka]

    • Andre 12.1
      30 September 2020 at 11:06 am

      Hmmm, the only info I can find about this comes from Mate. Nothing from anybody with a shred of credibility.

      It's apparently an Arria-formula meeting. Any member of the Security Council can call one for whatever reason they feel like. It has zero actual significance within the UN that I can tell. I wonder which Security Council member called it? It would be unkind of me to speculate based on who is "testifying" at it.

      Looks to me like it's another bullshit stunt similar to the one Eva Bartlett pulled to generate clickbait misinformation falsely trying to give themselves the credibility of the UN, that gullible convergence moonbats will then amplify and spread.

      • Morrissey 12.1.1
        30 September 2020 at 11:26 am

        And you're having a go at Eva Bartlett too, I note. Do you think anyone other than you thinks your "convergence moonbat" concoction has ever impressed anyone other than the sad fellows who spend all day dreaming up orange-themed and gibbon-themed labels to fling at President Drumpf?

        Your tactical decision to go all the way with those brilliant strategists of the DNC is leading you into wholesale abuse of journalists. I'm sure that in your more reflective moments, i.e. away from the adrenaline-filled arena of social media squabbling, you realize you are making some foolish and indefensible choices. Heaping abuse on journalists—and Eva Bartlett and Aaron Maté are, like Nicky Hager, renowned for their integrity and independence—is a foolish and indefensible choice if ever there was one.

        Still, going all the way with the democracy-hating Democratic Party—the Obama/Biden regime prosecuted, imprisoned and persecuted whistleblowers and journalists even more than the Bush/Cheney regime, and leading Democrats are as bloodthirsty in their rhetoric against Julian Assange as any Repug. is—is a choice you have made. We at this mostly excellent forum have had to put up with the evidence of that almost every day for the last four years.

        • Andre 12.1.1.1
          30 September 2020 at 12:45 pm

          You got any argument for why this thing from Aaron Mate should be viewed as anything more than an attempted deceptive misinformation stunt?

          BTW, that looks to me like quite a smear on Nicky Hager. I'd be curious to hear how Hager himself feels about being being lumped in with Bartlett and Mate.

    • Morrissey 12.2
      30 September 2020 at 1:30 pm

      Sorry about that. I did edit it, but not enough, clearly.

  13. Morrissey 13
    30 September 2020 at 11:11 am

    So Aaron Maté does not have a "shred of credibility"? Well, of course you would say that, wouldn't you. You sound just like Mrs Collins denigrating another journalist this morning.
    https://www.rnz.co.nz/audio/player?audio_id=2018766202

    Okay, you can get back to your MSNBC feed now.

  14. Janet 14
    30 September 2020 at 11:11 am

    In the Herald this morning :

    “Two of the country's biggest companies will use Aotearoa in their names rather than New Zealand.”

    Both companies Vodafone and DDB, are branches of big international companies.

    DDB is part of DDB Worldwide, an Omnicom company a highly ranked, worldwide advertising agency. Includes company information and philosophy, clients, and global contact information.

    If our country is up for renaming then it is for New Zealanders to instigate and decide not for international companies to stick their oar into and stir up discontent in our nation.

    • Draco T Bastard 14.1
      30 September 2020 at 1:03 pm

      Seems that the government agrees with you:

      The committee also noted that there are references throughout legislation to both “Aotearoa” and “New Zealand” and that while not legislated, the use of bilingual titles throughout Parliament and government agencies is common.

      "However, at present we do not consider that a legal name change, or a referendum on the same change, is needed", the committee said.

      Still, I'm amazed that Māori aren't up in arms about its misuse as, traditionally, it didn't refer to all of NZ:

      Before the period of contact with Europeans, Māori did not have a commonly-used name for the entire New Zealand archipelago. As late as the 1890s the name was used in reference to the North Island only; an example of this usage appeared in the first issue of Huia Tangata Kotahi, a Māori-language newspaper published on February 8, 1893. It contained the dedication on the front page, "He perehi tenei mo nga iwi Maori, katoa, o Aotearoa, mete Waipounamu",[9] meaning "This is a publication for the Māori tribes of the North Island and the South Island".

    • greywarshark 14.2
      30 September 2020 at 1:21 pm

      Good point Janet. I consider that for business New Zealand is a brand name and the official one we want to be known by.

      I don't know what is going on in the minds of these large corps but they might be trying some diviseness, perhaps making deals that suit Maori and don't fit in with the official country laws, and playing one off against the other. There will be money in it, it's just playing for advantage to them.

      Legal eagles, can we stop this use of Aotearoa as alternative name for New Zealand being done by force majeure?

      I don't like this business of using Maori names for everything, it confuses. It should be noted that English is the main business and computer language, and while I think we should be talking te reo frequently I see disadvantages for the country in naming basic agencies and methods in Maori. It is confusing to hear the Transport Authority called something else starting with Ko… What? is the reaction. Then one wonders, is it the same as the TA? Has it changed in the way it performs its role? Can important matters fall through the cracks when a Maori word is inserted in dialogue? Does it mean a number of things and the effect of it is misunderstood?

      Think of Oranga Tamariki – what does that convey to most? If it was called the Baby Health and Safety Removal Agency that would result in clarity of purpose, no confusion. But the Maori name implies that culturally appropriate, kind and acceptable methods will be used.

    • RedBaronCV 14.3
      30 September 2020 at 8:08 pm

      Actually I really like the use of dual names – then we can get to pick the one that suits Mt Taranaki or Mt Egmont. It also cuts off a lot of divisive baiting along the lines of Brash and his Hobson pledge framing and straight out arguments over which name to use. Although I notice over time the european name tends to fall into disuse.

      And at some level why were local place names over ridden by the names of dodgy british aristocrats – its a bit urrgh. I mean if they were being named today how keen would anyone be on Boristown or Dodgy Dave Cameron Street?

      So I think its good that overseas companies acknowledge this – even if the motivation is commercial.

      Our passports use both names and frankly I think they are an absolute work of art. Don't know who thought of it or did it but all credit they are wonderful. I have even had it admired by overseas passport officers.

  15. greywarshark 15
    30 September 2020 at 12:01 pm

    There was a thought that religion might be raising its head in our politics in a way that isn't positive. I think, with a shiver from looking at Trump's latest conservative Catholic to the Supreme Court, and the doings of some male-dominant states turning women's rights to women's wrongs.

    I put up a Wikipedia piece on European wars that had religion firmly mixed in them on Daily Review 29/9. This is a second para to that. I found it fascinating and alarming.

    The conflicts began with the minor Knights' Revolt (1522), followed by the larger German Peasants' War (1524–1525) in the Holy Roman Empire. Warfare intensified after the Catholic Church began the Counter-Reformation in 1545 against the growth of Protestantism. The conflicts culminated in the Thirty Years' War (1618–1648), which devastated Germany and killed one-third of its population, a mortality rate twice that of World War I. The Peace of Westphalia (1648) broadly resolved the conflicts by recognising three separate Christian traditions in the Holy Roman Empire: Roman Catholicism, Lutheranism, and Calvinism.

    Although many European leaders were "sickened" by the bloodshed by 1648, smaller religious wars continued to be waged in the post-Westphalian period until the 1710s, including the Wars of the Three Kingdoms (1639–1651) on the British Isles, the Savoyard–Waldensian wars (1655–1690), and the Toggenburg War (1712) in the Western Alps.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_wars_of_religion

  16. Adrian 16
    30 September 2020 at 1:24 pm

    It is not surprising that the Catholic Church was so involved in all of this history as it generally did all of those services that governments do today from census to education and health and science research and oversaw a lot of legal stoushes as well as diplomacy and defence and pretty much anything else you can think of.

    In most places it was the government as rulers were pretty inept.

  17. greywarshark 17
    30 September 2020 at 1:35 pm

    Mmm well we are still with inept government despite training in Hogwarts academy etc. Religion has learned a thing or two also but tends to be dogmatic more than government, putting pressure on govt from outside. Church government would be hell, it would take just a short time to get there. In the USA it and money and power are interwoven – best to control it and sit the dog outside the door – keep it as part of an ethics committee.

  18. Morrissey 18
    30 September 2020 at 1:40 pm

    King of Nothing nominates Sleepy Joe for a… (wait for it!!!!)… Peace Prize

    When you belong to Tony Blair's party, then you will quite likely have a predilection for war criminals…

    https://www.rt.com/usa/501987-biden-nobel-peace-nomination/

  19. Fireblade 19
    30 September 2020 at 1:43 pm

    If anyone wants to watch the first US Presidential Debate online, it will be live on C-Span's YouTube channel at 2pm NZT.

    • Morrissey 19.1
      30 September 2020 at 1:51 pm

      The Terminally Bewildered versus the Unspeakably Disgusting. As Jacinda Ardern so memorably said about the hastily put together Collins-Brownlee posters: "It doesn't exactly scream Dynamic Duo."

    • mauī 19.2
      30 September 2020 at 3:47 pm

      Thank goodness the left chose sleepy Joe.. to take on Trump. Such energy, strength, communication skills, and lack of political baggage!

    • lprent 19.3
      30 September 2020 at 3:49 pm

      Anyone watching it here?

      My partner was, but she muttered something about "unwatchable", "can't stop talking", and "I wonder what his base makes of this"… and stopped.

      By which I gather that Trump is making his usual pillock performance being a ignorant fuckwit full of himself…

      • Andre 19.3.1
        30 September 2020 at 4:05 pm

        Didn't watch any of it. Actually, I doubt I'd have the fortitude to watch it even on pain of getting cattle-prodded if my attention wavered.

        But from the commentary, it sounds like it went as everyone expected going into it. The mandarin manutang made a lot of nonsensical contradictory noise unrelated to the actual question in his Asshole-in-Chief routine, and Biden mostly let him do his thing in a low-key way.

        Nobody has mentioned anything that even vaguely resembles a debate moment that people will refer in the future – no "there you go again" or anyone looking at their watch, or looking pasty and sweaty with a 5 o'clock shadow. So all-in-all, kind of a pointless waste of everyone's time.

        • Andre 19.3.1.1
          30 September 2020 at 4:27 pm

          Unless maybe both Biden and Chris Wallace literally telling the orange anusmouth mouth to shut up might get used as a symbol to illustrate just how unrestrained Dolt45 actually was.

          • The Al1en 19.3.1.2.1
            30 September 2020 at 6:00 pm

            No clanger, and fortunately for Biden and non Trump supporters, he got the best jabs in on the night.

            Not coming over as king prick and making it clear to the unswayed voters you're okay and worth the benefit of the doubt over your opponent, is the real purpose behind these debates. Getting it through how he is the Democratic party, that any green deal will be his plan, will probably help win a few more votes… Unless they were the kind that were never going to vote for him anyway and just looking for an excuse, like happens on here from the usual suspects, most of the time come every election.

            • mauī 19.3.1.2.1.1
              30 September 2020 at 9:34 pm

              Generally in a debate if you're on the defensive and forced into discussing your opponent's talking points, then its not a great sign… The clip above was fairly typical of the debate, Trump was literally running rings around Biden. "Weekend at Bidens" has literally nothing going for him to attract swing voters, especially in a live performance where his opponent has all the energy.

              • The Al1en …
                30 September 2020 at 9:48 pm

                For the second time tonight, that wasn't the debate I watched, but more importantly, not the one the media or general public saw – Going by the general reaction and collective Trump bashing.

                By the way, not seen your Biden's new green deal clanger mentioned, which somewhat sort of hacks away the patellas of your point.

      • mickysavage 19.3.2
        30 September 2020 at 4:30 pm

        I saw about half of it. Trump has a real skill. He is able to insert a distinct and separate lie into every sentence that he utters.

  20. greywarshark 20
    30 September 2020 at 1:57 pm

    Neo lib has come along like a new religion – belief and promises of a smooth running business heaven are mingled. Neolib doesn't mind if it turns freemen into serfs and at the same time telling them that they are not disregarded objects of charity like those on benefits. So workers getting sacked from their old jobs become contractors, standing tall, alone and proud not like the welfare whiners they think.

    But neolib is a business and money-gouging conception. The Press has a sorry tale about the contractors to a small lone builder who has absorbed the More business virus and is erecting legal entities, building, using his subbies as credit providers they claim, not paying them, dismantling the legal entity and starting off again the same, though it is supposed to be against the explicit law. Also the builder quotes Master Builders membership though he has been struck off, and a recommendation by a well-known name. Looks good, smells very bad for the No Regulations Friendly Country. Blah……..

    https://www.pressreader.com/new-zealand/the-press/20200929/281479278859135
    Debt-ridden builder has new outfit – Sep.29/20
    …The Companies Act says a director cannot run what is known as a phoenix company – one trading in the same business using the same or a similar name as their failed one – before or within five years after the liquidation…

    May Moncur, an Auckland law employment advocate, believed too many businesses were using liquidation as a way of avoiding their liabilities. They keep the business running by starting up another company, and continue as normal.

    ‘‘In New Zealand, putting a company into liquidation is so easy and not expensive. There is a loophole in the law.’’

    .
    A year old Australian story which has a lot of fibre in it!
    https://www.smh.com.au/national/debt-ridden-builder-s-anti-semitic-texts-over-pratt-raheen-project-20190331-p519e7.html

    • Draco T Bastard 20.1
      30 September 2020 at 2:21 pm

      Liquidation of a business should result in the owners of that business:

      • Losing everything that they own (including trusts) to pay their debts
      • Not allowed to own or run a business for 5 years
      • Not allowed to be in management/administration of a business for 5 years

      Then we may get rid of these thieves.

      • Bearded Git 20.1.1
        30 September 2020 at 2:43 pm

        Agree draco

      • RedBaronCV 20.1.2
        30 September 2020 at 3:01 pm

        There are some rules around owner distributions that can be clawed back but there is a cost to the civil action so it often doesn't get actioned.

        But I would expect the IRD in the current climate to oppose the liquidation and strike off of companies that have received any of the wage subsidies or loans to prevent the owners taking the money and then collapsing the entity until they have confirmed that it is all valid. And the IRD should make that public.

        On the upside the physical fleeing of jurisdiction is not quite as easy as before.

        • Draco T Bastard 20.1.2.1
          30 September 2020 at 3:33 pm

          There are some rules around owner distributions that can be clawed back but there is a cost to the civil action so it often doesn't get actioned.

          Yes, a civil action that the workers, who can't afford legal council, have to do and there ends justice.

          But I would expect the IRD in the current climate

          I think the IRD need to be doing that as a matter of course every time that a liquidation occurs. If they don't then we end up with the above which pretty much is state sanctioned theft.

          • RedBaronCV 20.1.2.1.1
            30 September 2020 at 6:59 pm

            The civil action can be any creditors but yes waged employees can lose a lot of money in some of these situations as even their preferred status frequently doesn't cover them off.

            I have always wondered why the law and unions don't ask for wages to be transferred out of companies at the gross amounts owed. For a really simple example net wages are paid, taxes go to the IRD and then a further amount to cover any holiday pay, long service leave, redundancies etc gets paid off to a "trust account" managed by a third party which could be say the IRD. Then if everything goes to custard the amounts in trust cover the employee entitlements. Businesses would then get a heads up earlier that they are not making money and they would not be relying on the employee based free funding that can be pretty substantial.

    • RedBaronCV 20.2
      30 September 2020 at 2:56 pm

      I had a quick look and the old company appears to have collected the wage subsidy and it's extension.

      • greywarshark 20.2.1
        30 September 2020 at 3:31 pm

        The government and its agencies might be being hoist on their own petard. How soon can we undermine this cumbersome inadequate agency that we thought we paid taxes to to keep things going reasonably sweetly? They have reduced regulations, and everything else, but the MPs show signs of being Mr Creosote's family. Give ya a technicolour chunder as Barry McKenzie used to say.

  21. Koff 21
    30 September 2020 at 2:42 pm

    My partner and I are voting in the NZ GE today – Kiwis in Oz are the first in the world to vote, although they said on ABC radio this morning that only 40,000 kiwis out of the 600,000 here are enrolled. The voting process is a bit of a mission. Forms have to be downloaded, then filled in, and then scanned and uploaded back on to the NZ Elections site. I wonder what the percentage of voters would be if everyone had to do that? (there are a few polling stations open in Oz, but nowhere near us)

    • Draco T Bastard 21.1
      30 September 2020 at 2:47 pm

      If it's a PDF ask them if you can edit it directly then send it back. Save having to print it out, scan it and then send it.

      • Koff 21.1.1
        30 September 2020 at 2:57 pm

        No. They have to be printed, then signed in front of a witness! The odd thing is that the witness can be anyone in your family. Remember doing it before in 2017 – from Fiji. The other odd thing is that when you upload the forms your name and ref number is sent with your referendum, electorate and party votes. It doesn't seem very secret.

        • Draco T Bastard 21.1.1.1
          30 September 2020 at 3:30 pm

          The other odd thing is that when you upload the forms your name and ref number is sent with your referendum, electorate and party votes. It doesn't seem very secret.

          It's never been secret except possibly in the dark days of the 19th and early 20th century. Need to be able to check off the voter according to the voter registration so as to prevent people voting twice, people voting who shouldn't be etcetera.

  22. RedBaronCV 22
    30 September 2020 at 3:11 pm

    On a completely different topic "kindness". I have seen a number of peeps saying something along the lines of "NZ is not being kind" usually when they have been told "no" to something they want which is well outside the rules. Mostly I see this as just complaining when they don't get their own way.

    I see "kindness" as something that is "given freely" not some thing that anyone should expect to receive (nice though it is when it happens) and be entitled to complain about if they don't .

    But is this just me ??

    • karol121 22.1
      30 September 2020 at 3:49 pm

      It's an interpretation thing, Red Baron CV. And it is sometimes misinterpreted.

      To clarify things for you from my perspective:

      Often, when I don't get my own way I act in a kindly way to myself by both being pissed off about not getting my own way and sometimes expressing to others that I am pissed off also.

      They, in turn, then start being kind to themselves by telling me to shut up and to stop complaining.

      It’s called the kindness cycle.

    • greywarshark 22.2
      30 September 2020 at 3:56 pm

      It could be that you choose to ameliorate a siuation when you could have been punitive or dismissive.

      But people who have been brought up to expect a positive response to everything they want are suffering from the indulgent decades, those reflecting Ayn Rand's The Virtue of Selfishness.

      Or: Imagine a world where leaders are able to pass power directly to their children. These children are plucked from their nurseries and sent to beautiful compounds far away from all the other children. They are given the best teachers, the best facilities, the best doctors and the best food. Each day the children are told that the reason they're here is because they are the brightest and most important children in the world.

      https://www.bloomsbury.com/au/posh-boys-9781786073839/

    • woodart 22.3
      30 September 2020 at 4:04 pm

      good post redbaron. no, its not just you. we live in a "give them an inch, and they want the whole quarter acre" society nowdays. and the media make headlines out of moaners. what was it last week, "quarantine food so horrible they had to eat their own shoes" or some such bullshit. I would say NZ is being exceptionally kind , and having a close friend who is working nights for immigration, talking to, and finding solutions for kiwis, from countries you havent heard of, needing all sorts of things that are well outside the box , has certainly opened my mind.

      • RedBaronCV 22.3.1
        30 September 2020 at 4:25 pm

        I did see one food post where it looked like the budget company employed had done a dreadful job. Plus it had supplied coke and lemonade as lunchtime drinks. I'd have been pretty annoyed with that if I had had kids. Sugar highs in hotels rooms. I do suspect the food reflects the underlying grade of the hotel and the prfits they are trying to wrench off the contracts.

  23. Scud 23
    30 September 2020 at 3:49 pm

    Well according to those I follow on Twitter I didn’t miss much on the 2 grumpy old muppets of Bernie and Waldorf from the US Presidential Debate this morning. Thank god & for its various faults that we have the Westminster System in NZ & in Oz unless someone corrects me.

  24. JohnSelway 24
    30 September 2020 at 4:09 pm

    Good god that debate was painful

  25. karol121 25
    30 September 2020 at 4:53 pm

    Just referring to Woodart's post and the misreporting he mentioned regarding people in quarantine said to have been eating their shoes.

    All I can say is that if they did have to eat their shoes, they don't know how lucky were!

    I was imprisoned by WINZ for an extended period of time, and then forced to eat my hat after I had previously told people that I would eat the damn thing if I ever found welfare dependency to be harsher than being gainfully employed or in business.

    Well, it was harsher and I have had indigestion ever since.

    Which brings me to a linked subject which is Covid-19 handouts.

    My view is that if New Zealanders find themselves with their heads above the sour milk and bitter honey welfare dependency mammary gland feed, they should take whatever handouts are available to keep them to get them through, whether employed or in business, whilst the handout money is still flowing. They should take the money with no feelings of guilt whatsoever.

    The choice of walking from a failing business or a job with fewer fringe benefits might actually lead to permanent subsistence welfare dependency even after reaching superannuation eligibility age, unless people have a guaranteed accommodation arrangement already in place and already paid for.

    Don't walk away to the dole queue unless you have no other choice. In the long run, it just ain't worth it.

    Look. Even if you have to bend (not break) government rules and ignore certain societal fostered assertions in relation to start up enterprise or self reliance, if you can do it with a chance of success, then give it a try.

    Given that my current financial disposition appears precarious, I may now withdraw from these read and post sessions (as enlightening and entertaining as they have been) and seek to find some way I can use my spare time to an obtain extra, and hopefully a more reliable, income source.

    Adios

  26. observer 26
    30 September 2020 at 4:56 pm

    A poll from East Coast, looks good for Kiri Allan:

    http://www.gisborneherald.co.nz/local-news/20200930/allan-ahead-in-labour-poll/

    (and "commissioned by" doesn't mean "conducted by", e.g. Curia and UMR do polls for National/Labour, but they are still real polls).

    The party vote numbers show a big swing, too. The numbers in 2017 were very close to the nationwide total (Nat 44 Lab 36).

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