Open mike 30/09/2021

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, September 30th, 2021 - 189 comments
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189 comments on “Open mike 30/09/2021 ”

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  1. Gezza 1
    30 September 2021 at 6:57 am

    .

    Such delightful birds, and so curious, even when they realise you’re not the tiwaka wahine they were expecting.

    https://i.imgur.com/LF6VU25.gif

    • Forget now 1.1
      30 September 2021 at 7:20 am

      Tīwaiwaka wahine would be female fantail; Gezza, but ka te pai for making the effort. Less poetically, it was probably after the insects that were stirred up by your presence – which is why they seem to be such a friendly bird to humans.

      • Gezza 1.1.1
        30 September 2021 at 7:48 am

        It’s got quite a few Māori names, Forget now.

        “tīwakawaka
        1. (noun) fantail – a small, friendly, insect-eating bird of the bush and domestic gardens which has a distinctive tail resembling a spread fan.

        Nā, kia mōhio tātou, ko ngā tīwaiwaka e tītakataka nei ka hura rā hoki ngā hukumaro ki runga, ka riro ko te upoko ki raro (TTT 1/10/1929:1086). / Now, we should know that fantails flit about opening their tail feathers up and with their head going down.
        (Te Pihinga Study Guide (Ed. 1): 2; Te Māhuri Textbook (Ed. 2): 182;)”

        It’s also known as he pīwakawaka in some other parts of te motu.

        A wahine toa Māori friend of mine in her 60s up in Northland always shortens the name to tīwaka when she writes about hers up there – which is why I did. (Thanks for the reminder about the macron being needed on the ī, btw.)

      • Gezza 1.1.2
        30 September 2021 at 8:36 am

        PS: No, it's not after insects stirred up by me. I saw it flitting about in the trees across the stream. I'm just standing by my fence, not moving. I called it over. I know how to mimic a tīwakawaka call.

        • Forget now 1.1.2.1
          30 September 2021 at 8:55 am

          That is impressive; Gezza, my own whistling has a half octave range, and even then; there is a rather wet slurring to the pitch (probably learning brass at school messed up my embouchure habits for whistling, and other flutes). Āe, ngā reo ā-iwi certainly do make the language interesting – if it was intentional and had precedent then you're not wrong,

          • Gezza 1.1.2.1.1
            30 September 2021 at 9:09 am

            Kia ora for that, e hoa.

            My tīwaka call is a variation on a “kissy” sound. I suck air thru my teeth. A bit hard to describe further beyond that. I can get it to sound quite loud & it carries across the stream.

            Another neat trick a lady friend of mine in Huntly uses is to rub two pieces of polystyrene foam together. I tried it, & it works on my fantails here. 👍🏼

            My Māori friend up north lives off grid with her partner in te Hokianga. Her tūrangawaewae is East Coast tho. She spent many years as a possum hunter & trapper. Now she’s becoming quite a tohunga rongoā.

  2. Forget now 2
    30 September 2021 at 7:31 am

    Off to get my second shot of vaccine today; more like 9 weeks after the first than the intended 12, but school holidays start at the end of the week and I want to be over any reactions and side effects before I am being scamped 24/7 again. I had the soreness at injection site for a day or two last time, expecting the wiped-outness this time around, so have got a bunch of DVDs from the library (including the reCGed Sagan Cosmos!) and arranged for a friend to come over to watch them (and over me) the next couple of evenings. I did the same for them a couple of weeks back when they had their 6 week jab. Though that was more snuggling together in front of a winter fire.

    Vacci-dating is a very 2021 form of social interaction.

    • Ad 2.1
      30 September 2021 at 7:33 am

      I went through Lawrence of Arabia yesterday with 4 panadol over the day.

      Better today.

      • mac1 2.1.1
        30 September 2021 at 9:16 am

        Ad, I was trying to imagine what your pain and torment was like, having likened it to that of Lawrence of Arabia. Was it like suffering riding a camel cross-legged across a stony desert all day with little water? Still, he got to be a wise man, did TE Lawrence, after the experience, with his "Seven Pillars of Wisdom".

        Then I realised you had just got through a bad day by watching the film, not by reliving it. I'm glad you're better. My second jab took my energy so that a usual Sunday morning hill walk climbing 400 metres had me stopping five times on the uphill stretch-usually one stop 'for the view'.

        Lawrence taught me that the major religions all came out of the desert as a result of encounters with open, starry night skies. I still seek spiritual solace that way- without the panadol, but sometimes with a wee dram……..

        • Ad 2.1.1.1
          30 September 2021 at 9:24 am

          5.30am this morning you could see an inky Manukau Heads from South Titirangi Road with a wee wreath of showers, and stars coming through.

    • Patricia Bremner 2.2
      30 September 2021 at 8:10 am

      yessmiley Well done.

    • Gezza 2.3
      30 September 2021 at 9:43 am

      😀 True, & wise.

  3. Tiger Mountain 3
    30 September 2021 at 8:12 am

    COVID is certainly the disease of the unvaccinated according to healthcare workers. And now thanks to “Roger’n’Ruth’s” toxic neo liberal legacy, it is also the disease of the alienated working class poor.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/452596/covid-19-team-helps-auckland-families-frightened-of-being-tested

    It is pretty clear what needs to be done, albeit obviously too late for this current virus outbreak.
    –Pay all citizens a basic income via IRD (recovered via taxation from higher earners)
    –Fare free public transport and free Wifi nationwide
    –Rent control at all times
    –Rent freeze and mortgage holiday during any lockdowns
    –State house and apartment mega build, emergency housing and homeless tiny house build in all towns and regions

    But what is the Govt.’s latest move? relax conditions for migrant workers just as upward pressure on wages was building in a tighter labour market! Yes migrant workers have been treated appallingly for ever and redress is needed, but really employers and the NZ petit bourgeois just get such favoured treatment from this majority Labour Govt. Bring on 2023 and 2026 I say.

  4. ianmac 4
    30 September 2021 at 8:41 am

    Bribery and punishment rarely work to incentivise good behaviour, so John Key should put down the wooden spoon about vaccine-hesitant people, writes Jess Berentson-Shaw

    So when I read John Key suggesting that “incentives” should make up a core part of our vaccination strategy (that means offering a mix of material “rewards” for getting vaccinated and sanctions for not), I rolled my eyes.

    Save us from conservative men with opinions telling us that what hesitant people really need to get themselves vaccinated is a bit of tough love. It's the rhetorical equivalent to shouting “boot camps!” in response to youth crime.

    Poor old conservative John Key. He doesn't get the respect now that he believes that he deserves.

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/jess-berentson-shaw-do-vaccine-incentives-help-hesitant-people?utm_source=Friends+of+the+Newsroom&utm_campaign=c00f98c647-Daily+Briefing+30.09.2021&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_71de5c4b35-c00f98c647-95522477

    • Ad 4.1
      30 September 2021 at 9:25 am

      Need to get our vax-hesitant gangs to work. Joint for a jab anyone?

      • Gezza 4.1.1
        30 September 2021 at 9:46 am

        Need to get the local kaumatua to pay them a visit, or to ask them to come to the marae to discuss getting jabs?

      • Stuart Munro 4.1.2
        30 September 2021 at 5:44 pm

        It's a good scheme – time to break with that strange conservative reflex of Peter Dunne's that has NZ trailing liberalization even of countries as backward as the US.

        Better for everyone that gangs are mellow – and vaccinated.

  5. Pete 5
    30 September 2021 at 9:29 am

    Apropos the notion in National's pandemic response of purpose-built quarantine facilities near Auckland airport to open in early 2022. On CNN today:

    China has built a 5,000-room quarantine centre for overseas arrivals.

    – A (NZ) $378 million, 5,000-room quarantine facility for incoming travellers opening in Guangzhou.

    – Size of 46 football fields, took less than three months to be built from scratch on outskirts of the city.

    – Travellers transferred directly from the airport on buses, confined to their rooms for at least two weeks. Three meals a day delivered by robots — minimized direct contact with staff.

    – More than 4,000 workers assigned to the construction site. The facility completed earlier this month and a first batch of 184 medical staff moved in last week

    – Designed as bubble isolated from rest of city – travellers, AND workers placed under effective lockdown.

    – Medical staff work 28 days at the facility, go through week of quarantine themselves, and another two weeks of home quarantine before allowed to go outside.

    https://edition.cnn.com/2021/09/29/china/guangzhou-covid-quarantine-center-mic-intl-hnk/index.html

    • Tricledrown 5.1
      30 September 2021 at 9:59 am

      That can happen in a dictatorship with unlimited resources.

      NZ has a massive shortage of construction workers Shortages of building materials many imported from China supply constrictions ,lack of ships operating due to covid.

      • Pete 5.1.1
        30 September 2021 at 10:54 am

        I have observed the calls to have unlimited resources, instant, dictatorship type action.

        Do you think it's funny when such calls come from those who freak out and scream "Dictatorship!" when there are rules about wearing facemarks on public transport and suggestions about wearing them in public?

        Don't you think it's funny when people anti a particular government demand unlimited resources, instant action then if anything is done at haste to meet the perceived needs of a situation, wail "What about consultation?!"

    • McFlock 5.2
      30 September 2021 at 2:36 pm

      whoa… back up!

      Three meals a day delivered by robots

      ROBOT WAITERS!!!

      In a pandemic iso unit.

      I used to bitch that we didn't have a moonbase like they said we'd have when I was a kid. Now we're getting all the sci fi at once.

  6. Muttonbird 6
    30 September 2021 at 9:55 am

    New Covid-19 poster child, Ireland, has 40,000 active cases and recorded 40 deaths yesterday. Bloomberg says Ireland is the best place to be right now. :shrug:

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

  7. Reality 7
    30 September 2021 at 10:30 am

    National wants purpose built quarantine centre by early 2022. Have they been asked just how that would be done? Land to be acquired, council consents to be applied for, architects and designers selected to draw up plans, contractors and sub-contractors to be tendered for, building materials to be ordered and trades people to be hired all in the next 5-6 months for completion in early 2022. One of the nuttiest ideas ever.

  8. Anker 8
    30 September 2021 at 10:31 am

    there appears to be an almost without exception complete media black out on the Select Committee Hearing on the BMDRR Bill

    So hears my update.

    Select committee members are showing very overtly they are biased in favour of the bill when submitters are against the bill.

    Some MPs are breaking select committee rules by demonstrating this biasis.

    One MP , Dr Elizabeth Kerekere, posted a screenshot from the zoom call, with a submitter who opposes the bill accusing them of hate speech. This is likely defamation, but also completely undermines the Select Committee process as it amounts to intimidation. ie if you present an opposing view to the views the select committee clearly holds, you risk being put on FB and acccused of hate speech

    With counting almost complete the numbers against the bill outweigh the numbers for the bill by 75 to 25%

    There have been a number of Maori wahine presenting against the bill

    Pasifica have also presented against the beill

    Sandra Coney and Philida Bunkle are part of an group of prominant older feminists who are presenting against the Bill and calling for a Royal Commission of Enquiry into sex and gender.

    Stuff, Herald, TVNZ Radio NZ Newshub………..your welcome

    • Mika 8.1
      30 September 2021 at 10:53 am

      I have been really shocked by the contempt shown towards some submitters by members of the select committee. Shamefully, for me as a Labour Party member, the worst behaviour is coming from Labour MPs. I have seen eye rolling, scrolling through phones, frankly hostile and confrontational conduct. Deborah Russell has finished a day of intemperate conduct on the select committee and gone home to tweet that she wants to shout "oh do F*ck off" to submitters.

      Along with Kerekere's facebook abuse of one group submitting, and Rachel Boyack's barely concealed contempt, sitting pointedly scrolling through her phone during one group's submission, the whole process has been an appalling display of arrogance.

      Committee members do not have to share the beliefs of submitters, but should have sufficient EQ to be able to listen respectfully and politely clarify points as required.

      The conduct of the committee has been an absolute fiasco. Only Ian McKelvie and Nicola Griggs have shown any ability to conduct themselves appropriately. (It galls me to say this as I pathologically hate the Nats).

      What on earth are the party chief whips doing, allowing this to happen? Do these MPs not know what their roles and responsibilities are? Do they not get some training on parliamentary processes and appropriate behaviour? Mallard has already said on Twitter that he has no role in sanctioning misbehaving MPs on select committees.

      The whole thing has been a shameful episode for democartic processes. Labour should thank their lucky stars that the opposition are in such disarray.

    • Ghostwhowalksnz 8.2
      30 September 2021 at 10:57 am

      "Some MPs are breaking select committee rules by demonstrating this bias"

      I think you are assuming they are judges hearing evidence in court.

      Rules of the House regarding Select Committes and bias is only one section and doesnt seem to cover the situation you think it does

      236 Disqualification for apparent bias

      A member who has (whether in the House or outside the House) made an allegation of crime or expressed a concluded view on any conduct or activity of a criminal nature, identifying by name or otherwise a person as being responsible for or associated with that crime, conduct, or activity (referred to as apparent bias), may not participate—

      The Births deaths , marriages and relationships Bill is really about being able to change gender.

      For a small minority its the end of the world as we know it for a person to change gender on their birth certificate to match their own gender identity. It seems that old fashioned prejudice is behind those opposed to this provision

      • Mika 8.2.1
        30 September 2021 at 11:16 am

        Regardless of one's views about the bill, members of the public should be able to submit to the select committee without fear of intimidation from MPs. If you support democratic processes, it is really important that the integrity of the select committee process is preserved. If this becomes the new standard of conduct for discussing differing views we are heading to a very dark place.

        • Ghostwhowalksnz 8.2.1.1
          30 September 2021 at 11:26 am

          Eye rolls are intimidation ? Are you expecting patsy questions as well .

          BTW which submission are you in support so we can look it up online and judge for our selves.

          • Anker 8.2.1.1.1
            30 September 2021 at 12:05 pm

            No eye rolls arent intimidation, but i imagine it could be intimidating to some presenters.

            The intimidation bit is Dr Elizabeth Kerekere posting on FB an article from Newshub with a picture of a zoom call. The article names the women in the picture .Dr Kerekere accuses her of hate speech. Lets call it what it is intimidation

            So if I am presenting the next day and am in disagreement with this bill, it would be realistic for me to fear the same thing happening.

            The hate speech thing is a smear. Its intimidation and inappropriate for a MP to do this, probably breaks the harmful digital communication lawas and is in fact libleless.

            FFS I thought you guys were all about the "safe spaces". Seems like that doesn't apply to women who disagree with you.

            And where are the men on the Standard? Heads buried in ideology.

            • weka 8.2.1.1.1.1
              30 September 2021 at 9:21 pm

              The intimidation bit is Dr Elizabeth Kerekere posting on FB an article from Newshub with a picture of a zoom call. The article names the women in the picture .Dr Kerekere accuses her of hate speech

              Can you please link, and be specific. I looked the other day and the FB post I saw didn't quite match your description. One of the reasons we ask for links a lot here is so that people can see what is being referred to and in context. It makes discussion much better when we are all working off the same page.

          • Anker 8.2.1.1.2
            30 September 2021 at 1:42 pm

            Ghostwalker, try reading John Minto submission which is againgst SOP59

            or the Correction Officers who has a trans kid, but is against the bill cause he has seen a number of pregnancies in women's prison due to transgender women being there.

            Fowls with older prominant feminists is fantastic (Sandra Coney and Philida Bunkle, a former Green MP). They are against gender id and are calling for a royal commission into sex and gender.

            or save Women's Sports oral submission with one of the submitters giving evidence of how transgender females are already in women's only spaces and the Bill will only accerelate and legitimize this. She gives a case of a gym where a transwomen sat and watched as women and girls got changed. So is anyone whose pro this bill alarm bells going off yet. The gym claimed they could do nothing which probably could be challenged, but not once this bill comes in.

            Their is a Pacific Island GP who is really pissed off about this bill and the Conversion therapy bill, and she claims the lack of consultation with the PI community shows how hollow the apology for the dawn raids are. The is a huge number of Asian people submitting against this bill..

            There are Christians of course, Lesbian groups, Maori wahine, women, mothers. There are people who wrote things like “Just don’t”. and is the Government completely mad.

            • weka 8.2.1.1.2.1
              30 September 2021 at 9:22 pm

              What did Minto say?

              • Molly …
                30 September 2021 at 9:29 pm

                I know you may be making a point about links, but John Minto's submission can be found by clicking the pdf on this page.

                (I think Anker may be watching the submissions online, so doesn't have the links)

                • weka …
                  30 September 2021 at 9:30 pm

                  No, I was curious what Minto said, thanks.

                • weka …
                  30 September 2021 at 9:54 pm

                  btw, for clarity, the difference between the two comments is that the second one is someone reporting what they saw in the video. The first is saying that a sitting MP made a defamatory statement. The latter needs to be linked. The former, it would be good if people got in the habit of putting up links, but it's not particularly contentious.

                  (I don't think what Kerekere did is defamatory, because I think defamation needs to be a) a specific allegation or statement, 2) made against a specific person/s. EK's behaviour is appalling though)

                  • Molly …
                    30 September 2021 at 10:02 pm

                    Thanks weka. I did make that assumption when posting the link, but thought I'd better check given we are at the sharp end of the day.

                    I was disillusioned with the integrity of the select committee process when I attended one of the last minute ones held in Auckland for the TPPA. Both David Shearer and David Parker remain in my memory as equivalent to the eye-rolling and disdainful behaviour Anker relates in this instance.

                    It strikes me as farcical to refer to consultation conducted in such a way as democratic. I criticised such behaviour when it was exhibited by a National government. I am critical of the same behaviour and lack of genuine democracy being demonstrated by members of this government.

                    • weka …
                      30 September 2021 at 10:14 pm

                      thanks, that's very helpful, I didn't know if what the Labour/GP women are doing was out of the norm for SCs or not. Very disappointing that it's normal, as well as the disappointment for this particular group of women.

      • Janice 8.2.2
        30 September 2021 at 11:16 am

        The behaviour of Russell and Kerekere on the select committee is disgusting. They really confirm my opinion never to vote Labour again.

        • Sabine 8.2.2.1
          30 September 2021 at 11:25 am

          Labour and the Greens.

          What i really would like to know is if the Persons of the Green Party realise that in the end they too – like the persons of the Green Party in Germany have just a few days ago realised – that they will lose their jobs and their Persons Roll and their Persons Quota to Transwomen.

          Next a transwomen to stand for Persons Co leadership of the Green Party.

          But the real reason they are just being rude and obnoxious is that the fix is in, and this is just a wee spectacle to pretend that the democratic process is still functioning in their own parties.

          So to finish up, lets discuss what some opposition party has done wrong today.

          • Ghostwhowalksnz 8.2.2.1.1
            30 September 2021 at 11:27 am

            Karens always have that approach

            • Sabine 8.2.2.1.1.1
              30 September 2021 at 11:37 am

              This is so true.

              Karens voting with their feet.

              Bad bad Karen.

              Maybe they need some re-education by some Transwomen and Men as to the proper function and place of Persons/Peopels/Others/Karens in society.

            • Mika 8.2.2.1.1.2
              30 September 2021 at 11:38 am

              Ghostwhowalksnz….

              I wish to ask that you do not use such misogynist language towards women posters here. You are free to disagree, but sexist name calling is not appropriate on a left wing blog.

              • Ghostwhowalksnz …
                30 September 2021 at 1:20 pm

                When its avoiding the core issue and complaining about 'process'… its Karens. …or Ill call it what it is privileged older white women.

                [yes, you can name privileged, older white women (assuming you are being accurate). Because when you do that the political argument you are trying to make is clear and people can argue for or against it. If you use the term Karens, which is a perjorative, it derails the debate, by people having to stop and deal with the sexism. It’s tedious af. If you use Karens again like this, I will moderate accordingly. This isn’t FB or twitter. There is an expectation that people will engage here in robust debate not lazy slurs and throw away marginalising dismissals. – weka]

                • Ghostwhowalksnz …
                  30 September 2021 at 1:39 pm

                  https://www.inquirer.com/resizer/8hN-bgmjFMBUf-uLEp35L649tvU=/700x467/smart/filters:format(webp)/cloudfront-us-east-1.images.arcpublishing.com/pmn/QPWTUWBGCNB5VMQPCIMFWA6JOM.jpg

                  • Molly …
                    30 September 2021 at 1:46 pm

                    Doubling down, a la Collins, huh?

                    Given you don't know whether those you are referring to are:

                    privileged, older or white,

                    your justification is poor, immature and murky.

                    The only constant that exists in the use of Karen, is the biological sex of those who have it as a name. Since it is a derogatory term, it is both a lazy, and misogynistic label.

                    • Ghostwhowalksnz …
                      30 September 2021 at 3:28 pm

                      So you arent happy with a label 'that isnt you'.. quelle horreur

                      Just imagine a whole life with much much more than a label that isnt you, but you can never change.

                    • Molly …
                      30 September 2021 at 3:32 pm

                      @Ghostwhowalksnz Good God. Not everything is about transgender. And I have never stated that I do not support their wish to have an official record of their gender identity. I always have supported that wish, and still do. Link to where I have stated otherwise (alternatively, stop making shit up)

                      Now, despite that misdirection, I believe your commitment to your repeated use of Karen can be seen as delighting in the misogynistic term it really is. But I guess as long as social media condones it, you don't have to take responsibility.

                    • weka …
                      30 September 2021 at 9:34 pm

                      It's not even an accurate use of the Karen slur, so doubly sexist I think. Just any old pejorative against the crones, eh.

                • weka …
                  30 September 2021 at 9:32 pm

                  mod note for you.

                • Ghostwhowalksnz …
                  2 October 2021 at 8:26 am

                  Your point is noted

            • Anker 8.2.2.1.1.3
              30 September 2021 at 12:07 pm

              I always know when someone's arguements aren't that good. They start labelling you, Karen, Terfs.

            • Molly 8.2.2.1.1.4
              30 September 2021 at 1:35 pm

              Karen – Seems to me to be a lazy, misogynistic term that seems to be an acceptable form of "bitch". And yes, I know that when this term goes, another will take its place., but…

              … try to be brave, and say what you really think without a socially accepted veneer of sophistication.

              You might find yourself unrecognisable.

          • francesca 8.2.2.1.2
            30 September 2021 at 12:49 pm

            Sabine, this is what is happening in the Scottish Green Party.

            We'll see it here

            I'm cancelling my membership and monthly donation after decades of loyalty.

            I don't have a party I can vote for any more.

            https://andywightman.scot/archives/4634?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=why-i-resigned-from-the-scottish-green-party

            • Sabine 8.2.2.1.2.1
              30 September 2021 at 1:02 pm

              The Labour Party Conference in England that just ended yesterday was a doozy in regards to this issue.

              Mind, i have left the Labour Party in 2016. Will be voting for a third party, neither N / L nor G are at all a fit for me.

      • francesca 8.2.3
        30 September 2021 at 11:52 am

        Ghostwhowalks @8.2

        Have you looked at your birth certificate ?It requires sex, not gender.The bill refuses to denote the differences between sex and gender.Pretty poor law making

      • Anker 8.2.4
        30 September 2021 at 12:34 pm

        Ghostwalker this is the bit you omitted about bias.

        233 Complaints of apparent bias

        (1) A complaint of apparent bias on the part of a member of a select committee may be made by any member (whether or not a member of the committee) or by any person appearing or about to appear before the committee whose reputation may be seriously damaged by proceedings of the committee.

        (2) A complaint of apparent bias must be made, in writing, to the chairperson.

        (3) The chairperson, after considering any information or comment from the member against whom the complaint is made, decides whether the member is disqualified by reason of apparent bias.

        (4) Any member of a committee who is dissatisfied with the chairperson’s decision on a complaint of apparent bias may refer the matter to the Speaker for decision. The Speaker’s decision is final.

        • Ghostwhowalksnz 8.2.4.1
          30 September 2021 at 1:27 pm

          When I rechecked Rule 233 it says Witness Expenses ?

          Complaints of Apparent bias section is my quote:

          Rule 237 Complaints of apparent bias

          Standing Orders By Chapter Select Committes 23 Oct 2020
          You may be referring to an older version, however that version doesn’t dis allow MPs showing bias towards submitters.
          Im sure single issue zealots mostly get that response

      • Visubversa 8.2.5
        30 September 2021 at 12:43 pm

        It is not about people changing gender – it is about people creating a biological fiction – that they have changed SEX – and cementing that as a legal fiction. There is a process to do that now – which has the appropriate safeguards against abuse. The proposal in the SOP enables anyone to make that change by was of a Statutory Declaration with very few safeguards.

      • Molly 8.2.6
        30 September 2021 at 1:23 pm

        Let's have a higher standard for ourselves and our MPs that what you have proposed as acceptable. The select committee process is supposedly a part of a democratic process, not performance art. (Mind you, after attending some of the TPPA submissions this assumption was fairly quickly dispatched for me.)

        There is a high degree of arrogance to misuse such processes while calling them democratic.

        I believe that arrogance has also interfered with the public discussion on the bill, which leads to you making such statements as:

        "For a small minority its the end of the world as we know it for a person to change gender on their birth certificate to match their own gender identity. It seems that old fashioned prejudice is behind those opposed to this provision"

        Many of the submissions I have read have not been about this at all.

        It has been about the failure of the bill, and the MP's promoting it, to outline how the practical application of this bill in real life may impact on issues not related to birth certificates or transgender people.

        Their (I suspect deliberate) conflation of biological sex, gender and gender identity in public statements or meetings has made any discussion fraught with misunderstandings and confusion. I hold those MP's partly responsible for the oppositional nature of public discussions. They are definitely responsible for not doing more to bring clarity into the public sphere.

        If you cannot see that there has been a failure to address the possible impact on removing the safeguarding and gatekeeping process and replacing it with a statutory declaration, then you haven't gone past the basics of this issue.

        The current process is not there purely as a remnant of prejudice, it was a safeguard put in place to ensure that those who wanted to make such a change had contacted the necessary services and experienced what this may mean.

        Regardless, of how impatient or desperate some are to make immediate change, this safeguarding process should not be completely removed. For the well-being of those making the change. Yet, no support services or counselling or medical advice requirement is included in this self-id process. That's arguably going to be a negative as time goes on, as those who required help for other issues, sought gender change as a solution when it was perhaps not appropriate. Given the impact on mental health for many making the transition, this removal takes away the pressure on successive governments to provide necessary services. A better solution would be to demand investment in the provisions of specialist services, and for universal access to streamline the process rather than do away with it altogether. What seems like an ideal proposal may turn out to be a negative.

        The other issue is, that the self-id process as proposed, will be available to all members of the public. Not just those within the transgender community.

        There has been no clarity from the MP's on how they will stop those people with malicious intent from using this process to remove their personal (possible criminal) histories from public view, easily change names and do so with an intent to commit crimes, harm and fraud. If this process is misused in such a way, this is also not good for the transgender community.

        And that's without getting into the impact of these changes on the biological sex class of women.

        It is a well-intentioned but poorly thought out piece of legislation, presented badly by the MP's promoting it.

        • Nic the NZer 8.2.6.1
          30 September 2021 at 2:58 pm

          Yes. As overseas its actually the amateur implications of this change which have the striking impact. Many things (such as removing single sex/female) categories will be removed justified by the overarching law change. This will happen even though there is no legal requirement to change and the justification claimed will be that the law has changed requiring this.

    • francesca 8.3
      30 September 2021 at 11:22 am

      The supplementary order to the bill was presented as non controversial, having very little effect on the general population , and "bringing us into line with overseas countries"

      I'm concerned that it gives legal recognition to a vastly changed concept of what the words female and woman means.This without wide consensus or consultation with the 50% of the population who this affects.

      It seems there's been a total flip, now biological sex is a cultural concept (easily discarded with hormones and medical corrections) and gender is the new destiny, originating in the womb as an innate felt reality, trumping sex.

      In the process of ratifying the new orthodoxy , and in the name of inclusivity , natal women are neutered, their breasts not to be mentioned in connection with milk, the femaleness of their periods reduced to desexed menstruating bodies.

      We can't say pregnant women it seems , for risk of upsetting those who deny their material sex in favour of a preferred gender Ashley Bloomfield could have said pregnant men and women but perhaps he opted for brevity.

      I'm very wary of changes in language to fit a new orthodoxy, pushed in large part by academia in the social sciences .

      • Sabine 8.3.1
        30 September 2021 at 11:33 am

        If you remove the sex class then you no longer have 'discrimination on the basis of sex'.

        One day some Persons with prostates will realise that they too lost their sex status, but by then it will be too late.

        What i want to know is, if sex is removed, say a Cop were to arrest you, can you be cavity searched by a Transwomen? Must a female cop cavity search a transwomen in a prison? Can transmen be drafted? Can in the future persons with intact reproductive facilities be compelled to breed children for those that have been neutered in the name of trans? Will be a surrogate incubator be a career choice for persons who no longer find employment? Same for the production of human milk, can a person be compelled by Winz to be a wet nurse? If a child is born to a person and a transwomen (who is the ejaculator in this case) will the state be the parent, as persons in prison can not consent to sex? And so on and so forth.

        • francesca 8.3.1.1
          30 September 2021 at 11:48 am

          Already in a woman's rape crisis refuge in Scotland, a distraught woman victim asked to have a true female deal with her and administer the rape kit.Instead she was chided and told if she would not accept a transwoman (who knows what stage of transition)she would just have to stomach it and get over her bigotry.

          The cruelty of re traumatising a victim of rape.

          • Sabine 8.3.1.1.1
            30 September 2021 at 11:58 am

            Persons/People/Others/Karens need to do again what was done in the past.

            But then, just like with discrimination of sex, if you make it so bad that Karens don't go to the police or a rape crisis centre or a hosptial to

            a. report the crime

            b. and allow for evidence of the crime to be collected from their battered bodies

            then you have no crime.

            Win win.

            Labour / Green solved the violence against People/Persons/Others/Karens.

            Woot Woot! Victory! Sweet Sweet Victory!!

      • Visubversa 8.3.2
        30 September 2021 at 12:50 pm

        Gender Identity is the new Immortal Soul. Anybody who supports the separation of Church and State should be concerned by this new ideology which seeks to use the levers of the State to privilege it above other belief systems. There is no more physiological evidence for the possession of a gender identity than there is for the possession of an immortal soul. And we all know what happened last time the populace was required to accept the beliefs of its rulers.

  9. Anker 9
    30 September 2021 at 10:46 am
    • Post script
    • and a trans woman from the UK Debbie Hayton, who is I understand a science teacher also submitted. She is against gender self ID as she says it will back fire against trans people as women will protect their spaces “they have to”
  10. Anne 10
    30 September 2021 at 11:20 am

    Here is further proof that mandatory vaccinations and "tackling misinformation" works:

    Port workers' 95% vaccination rate attributed to tackling misinformation

    A turnaround in the number of port workers vaccinated is being attributed to success in tackling misinformation and making it mandatory for those on the border's frontline. Just last month Covid-19 Response Minister Chris Hipkins said misinformation was keeping 44 percent of port workers from getting even a single dose.

    So why is the government not considering making it mandatory for other risk based industries such as construction workers/road workers as well as work places where interaction with the public is high?

    • Sabine 10.1
      30 September 2021 at 11:34 am

      Or maybe it just has to do with the fact that we now have vaccines in the country and thus people that were stuck in Group 3 and 4 can actually get vaccinations?

    • Andre 10.2
      30 September 2021 at 1:20 pm

      Was it really tackling misinformation, or was it just maybe something else had more to do with it?

      from the link:

      Harrison said the fact their jobs hinge on having the vaccine from today is also a motivator.

      "It's a pretty blunt wall to hit for a worker."

      • Anne 10.2.1
        30 September 2021 at 1:45 pm

        Sorry, I forgot to put quote marks around the main paragraph:

        A turnaround in the number of port workers vaccinated is being attributed to success in tackling misinformation and making it mandatory for those on the border's frontline. Just last month Covid-19 Response Minister Chris Hipkins said misinformation was keeping 44 percent of port workers from getting even a single dose.

        That was the conclusion based on their responses – hesitancy due to misinformation. But they soon changed their minds when it became mandatory.

        No-one is suggesting it should be across the board, but obviously making it mandatory for all high risk areas is a no-brainer.

  11. Whispering Kate 11
    30 September 2021 at 12:05 pm

    Is this just me feeling a rant is coming on. Michael Venus is "thinking about" sueing the Gov because he cannot secure an MIQ spot. Firstly he is a professional sportsman and should be expecting problems flying in and out of the country and just grow a spine and get on with it. he is now going on to San Diego presumably to another fixture.

    Secondly his wife and two young children are joining him there plus his mother. His mother is joining them and has quit her job as an emergency department nurse, a sorely needed job which will be missed and training will take up valuable time to replace her. Reason being for her to be going is that she will be a stay at home mum as Venus's wife will be working over there.

    Now bugger me, Venus surely has sufficient PA earnings that he could afford a nanny for his kids and secondly why should it be an expectation that his mother will have to take over his wife's role. His mum may be more than happy to do this but the sense of entitlement Venus has, for thinking of sueing the Government and the cheek of even asking his mum to look after his kids.

    Sorry but I am over entitled prats and their whinging and whining. Grow a spine Venus and get a life.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/tennis-kiwi-olympic-bronze-medallist-michael-venus-considering-legal-action-against-government-over-miq-system/3PPXVGBYVLSJFJIDG2D32L3CKQ/

  12. Red Blooded One 12
    30 September 2021 at 12:14 pm

    Dear Moderators,

    Ages ago I think we had a daily special Post for Posting about the US Elections so that Open Mike was not clogged with loads of talking on the one topic.

    With the obvious passion associated with the Births, Deaths, Marriages, and Relationships Registration Bill would it be possible to have a daily thread that people could CHOOSE to go to on that topic, and then it might help avoid the overheated reactions we are seeing (from both sides) on occasions on this topic.

    My apologies for suggesting it, and ignore the suggestion, if something like that isn't as easy as it sounds.

    • Sabine 12.1
      30 September 2021 at 12:32 pm

      Apart from your dislike of persons discussing the issue, could you explain how you compare a current political action i.e. the discussion of bill that has wide ramifications in this country to the US election?

      And this is the open Mike? So why not discuss it here, other then that some persons may not disagree with what some other persons have to say?

    • I Feel Love 12.2
      30 September 2021 at 1:02 pm

      Yes please!

    • Molly 12.3
      30 September 2021 at 1:31 pm

      Despite engaging with you non-passionately on this topic a few times, RBO, why are your contributions only different versions of?

      Be quiet, be quiet, be quiet, be quiet…

      • Red Blooded One 12.3.1
        30 September 2021 at 1:41 pm

        Molly, the only times I have engaged on this topic is when I have taken offence at the language being used directed at the Trans Community. With your "be quiet, be quiet" narrative you are wrong. As I have stated above, today I have asked for a daily post dedicated to the discussions, that is hardly trying to shut you up, but when one does take offence to a "women with penises" remark they are jumped on for highlighting its offence. I personally would rather this matter be handled by the moderators, as I had addressed them, and am happy to leave it up to them, without me making further space on Open Mike.

        • Molly 12.3.1.1
          30 September 2021 at 1:57 pm

          Two fairly recent conversations with you where you did not discuss, just dismissed:

          Open Mike 28/09/2021 which actually included the instruction:

          "None of you need bother answering, the question is rhetorical. " and which you walked away from.

          Open Mike 26/08/2021 which was more productive, but showed a tendency for you to say what you wanted, which was responded to, but you walked away again instead of addressing what other commentators had said. This pattern of expecting and receiving a response, but not returning the courtesy has been noticeable on this issue.

          This pattern is not a discussion, it is a lecture.

          • Red Blooded One 12.3.1.1.1
            30 September 2021 at 3:07 pm

            I have not lectured any of you, you however!. I have highlighted when offensive remarks (imho) have been made, and no I am not going back to each thread to highlight them again, many of you have been party to the threads so will be well aware of the words used so I will not re-hash them. I will be very happy to have a discussion with Weka, who I addressed the last comment you mentioned to. This comment was addressed to the Moderators and as such we can, as Anker has done, and Sabine has alluded to, wait with patience to see what Weka or other moderators have to say, and/or voice your opinion to them why continuing the topic on Open Mike is a good idea. .

            • Molly 12.3.1.1.1.1
              30 September 2021 at 3:10 pm

              No, RBO. I think you are mistaken in thinking you have made a genuine attempt at discussion and sharing viewpoints. Despite people taking time to engage and respond to each of your comments in regards to content, you have given no indication in your comments that you have considered the content in theirs.

              That is not a robust discussion, when all the listening is happening on one side. That is a lecture.

        • Sabine 12.3.1.2
          30 September 2021 at 2:00 pm

          And you have been asked to provide a proof to your assertation that offensive language against the trans community was used, and used in order to offend.

          Again, you are complaining about such language being used, and again you provide no link, nothing at all.

          As far as i am concerned, moderators/authors on tis page have left various posts to discuss various issues. However not a single on of them has opened a post about this submission/hearing farce that is currently ongoing, other then Weka – and i think AD and MickeySavage who did a post in favour of it. Today however, not one Author did.

          But maybe you could let us all know what you would like us to discuss on the open mike? Maybe the 'vaccine mandate', the locking up of people who may refuse to take vaccinations, the rubbishing of peoples stuck overseas or here due to no spaces in MIQ or no flights that would fit MIQ? Maybe you would like to discuss childhood poverty and that of the poor parents? Maybe you would like to discuss the medical services that can't be accessed by many people because AKL is in lockdown and will remain in lockdown for the foreseeable future? Maybe you would like to discuss the rental shortage, the extortionist prices for human habitat?

          What would be an appropriate thing to discuss on the opne mike in your view?

        • McFlock 12.3.1.3
          30 September 2021 at 2:55 pm

          I just can't be fucked with it any more.

          I should make the effort, but the people dominating the discussion at TS seem to regard any opposing position as bias, claim that they're being silenced, and/or argue the people with a different position are victimising them. And then when they get told TS isn't viewed as a safe space, some of them have a little discussion about how they can't see why that might be, throw in a bit of patronising rephrasing that they think should solve whatever problem there is even though they can't see it, then a couple decide that the complaint was just a weapon used to victimise them.

          I just want the bill voted on. Even if it fails this time around (or has some "civil union"-style compromise), sooner or later it'll pass.

          • Molly 12.3.1.3.1
            30 September 2021 at 3:05 pm

            I don't think you realise how ironic your comment is.

            • McFlock 12.3.1.3.1.1
              30 September 2021 at 3:12 pm

              Funny. I think the same about your comments.

              • Molly …
                30 September 2021 at 3:17 pm

                At least give us a link to a contribution of yours when you could be "fucked" to talk with integrity on this topic, then I'll give credit to your "any more".

                • McFlock …
                  30 September 2021 at 3:34 pm

                  Yep, that's the stuff.

                  • Molly …
                    30 September 2021 at 3:37 pm

                    That's OK. I couldn't find one either.

                  • Molly …
                    30 September 2021 at 3:44 pm

                    Taking a deep breath, because although we can play this point scoring game all day, it is pointless.

                    I support the ability of transgender people to have a streamlined process that enables them to get official government documentation that records their declared gender identity. However, I think there are issues with how they are proposing to do so.

                    In particular, the ability to self-id without the requirement for the presence of support services. I think this is a negative for the transcommunity long-term. Also, there seems to be little proposed in the way of safeguarding the process from those who are not in the transgender community, but who may use it with ill intent.

                    Can you really not entertain the thought that there may be negative impacts from this proposed method?

                    • McFlock …
                      30 September 2021 at 4:04 pm

                      Every policy might have negative impacts, just as there might be positive impacts.

                      But there's a difference between realistic or even widespread impacts, and the theoretically possible impacts.

                    • Molly …
                      30 September 2021 at 4:25 pm

                      Except in countries where similar legislation has been passed, what you consider only "theoretically possible impacts" have occurred in real life, thereby rendering them "probable impacts".

                      I have not found a submission against the Bill, that state that they do not believe transgender people should not have access to documentation that records their preferred identity (although, I am sure there are some). I have randomly looked at about 40, and couldn't find one that stated that objection. The submissions were about the failure to safeguard both the transgender community and those in the wider community from the misuse of process and/or the failure to provide guidance or reassurance on possible negative impacts on the safeguards put in place for the biological sex class of women.

                      Make no mistake. I believe the MP's who are promoting this Bill have done an appalling job of predicting, and providing suitable responses to these concerns. Their failure to do so in part is responsible for an inability to publicly discuss this topic with genuine intent to resolve it to the benefit of all.

                      The differing understandings of the words sex, gender, gender identity, women, men, male, female etc makes the whole topic a minefield of misunderstandings and bad assumptions. People are often not even using the same language. How do we overcome that primary obstacle?

                      I fully support finding a streamlined method of providing transgender people with official government documentation.

                      I believe a truly progressive government would provide that by ensuring that any transgender person would have immediate access to counselling/medical/support services that facilitate that option.

                      By doing that instead of removing that safeguard, we ensure that those in the transgender community (which has a high percentage of mental health issues) at least has one guaranteed point of contact with such services. (Similar to the requirement of pregnant women to have a midwife).

                      This means that support services need to be invested in and grown. Removing the safeguard process, gives successive governments (think National and ACT) the option of reducing these services without regard.

                      That's one consideration that may be interesting to discuss with you, if you think you have the solution. The other issue with self-id is the ability of those not in the transgender community to misuse the process with the intent to commit harm. I would genuinely be interested in how you think that can be avoided.

                    • McFlock …
                      30 September 2021 at 4:39 pm

                      Bluntly, the fact that after years of implementation overseas the only negative impacts people point to seem to be individual cases (that are often highly debatable or talk radio reckons) rather than rates suggests to me the negatives of this largely administrative bill are still more theoretical than probable.

                    • Molly …
                      30 September 2021 at 4:51 pm

                      McFlock, unfortunately we are repeating the pattern where we are talking past each other. Your assertions that the impacts are neglible and non-existent beyond talk back radio are incorrect, and can easily be rebutted with a few internet searches. But you have stated more than once your refusal to follow provided links, so there is no point in doing so.

                      If you get to a place where you think we can actually converse with a genuine intent to solve this discussion issue, then we can give it another go. ie. would you support a streamlined support service for transgender people, rather than a complete removal of safeguarding if it delivered the same outcome – universal free access to official documentation that records gender identity?

                      I believe that solution works both for increasing access to services for the transgender community while solving the issue of misuse of process from those without. Perhaps you can propose a better one.

                      (Just as an aside, do you believe me and others when I make affirmations regarding support for the transgender community or do you consider them false?)

                    • McFlock …
                      30 September 2021 at 5:18 pm

                      Your assertions that the impacts are neglible and non-existent beyond talk back radio are incorrect,

                      This is the other issue. That's not actually what I wrote, nor certainly intended to imply. There was one discussion at TS (about a trans woman in a US prison ISTR) that did in fact resolve to being some talkback wonk, but I did not say that all cases were restricted to talkback radio. But you jumped on that interpretation as evidence that I'm arguing in bad faith.

                      Similarly with my refusal to look at some links – particularly when I've already spent half a damned day looking for and reading a judgement that was mentioned (and misinterpreted) in a tweet linked by a commenter.

                      That's not my bad faith, that's me having limited time and inclination to check the content that the original commenter should have checked before linking.

                    • Molly …
                      30 September 2021 at 5:31 pm

                      I apologise for paraphrasing incorrectly, but that is how it came across to me, even on the re-read. There have been numerous incidents related on TS, and again, easily found on the internet, about the harms on both the transgender and wider society by the use of an administration only process for self-id. One incident where you got frustrated is not an excuse for not informing yourself independently. And once again, you are taking issue with how we are talking rather than what we are saying.

                      I deliberately did not mention the impact on women and girls as a biological sex class, but asked you one specific question about how a progressive government could make life better for the transgender community while meeting the need for official recognition and you have ignored it.

                    • McFlock …
                      30 September 2021 at 6:04 pm

                      Would that it were one incident.

                      Wrestling scores, excerpts from judgements, anecdotes about predators being thrown into womens prison wings, fathers being locked up for "using the wrong pronoun"… cherry picked, out of context, talkback radio, outright misleading (he was done for repeatedly violating suppression orders by giving his kid's specific medical info to the press against the kid's, the kid's mother's, and the court's wishes).

                      Those aren't the only instances, just the ones off the top of my head.

                      Then the flipside is how few comments have been made about Tavistock winning their appeal. Quite a few before the appeal came out. This isn't me gloating about the judgement – it'll go further up – the point of the observation is that people tend to post links to support their position and that's fine if the links are accurate. But in this debate they seem to be largely assessed on surface value, and all too often fail accuracy checks that the commenters should have done.

                    • McFlock …
                      30 September 2021 at 6:10 pm

                      I deliberately did not mention the impact on women and girls as a biological sex class, but asked you one specific question about how a progressive government could make life better for the transgender community while meeting the need for official recognition and you have ignored it.

                      Just noticed this paragraph. Missed the Q the first time.

                      Was it this bit

                      would you support a streamlined support service for transgender people, rather than a complete removal of safeguarding if it delivered the same outcome – universal free access to official documentation that records gender identity?

                      I'd support it if my trans friends (both M2F & F2M) did and the trans community seemed to.

                      As it is, they want the bmdrr-whatever bill for "support".

                    • Molly …
                      30 September 2021 at 6:58 pm

                      I'd support it if my trans friends (both M2F & F2M) did and the trans community seemed to.

                      As it is, they want the bmdrr-whatever bill for "support".

                      Actually, McFlock, there are submissions from within the transcommunity that object to the self-id provisions in the bill.

                      It would also be an indication of genuine engagement if you provided more in regards to this discussion than "they said so". I would suggest that the burden of informing your opinion should not rely solely on the testimony of those you have relationships with. The issue is much wider and far-reaching than the personal views of a few people.

                      This is a societal change, not just a legislative one. It also affects women as a sex class, because it affects sports, awards, services, spaces, quotas, statistics etc that relate to that class.

                      Others within the transcommunity and those concerned about the impact on the laws and societal mores than affect the biological sex class of women, have brought up those concerns more than once, only to be dismissed as transphobic.

                      Were you ever supportive of the idea of single-sex spaces? If you understood the need for them before, why has this changed?

                      Are you supportive of the inclusion of religious women (eg. Muslim), modest women or young women and girls in community facilities? Do you understand that the presence of self-identified male bodied people in those spaces might well result in the exclusion of these biological women from those facilities? How do you, and those who require validation from inclusion in women-only spaces despite male bodies, provide inclusion for those women?

                      Those examples you have provided are also out of context. The Tavistock ruling, is concerning. You are right. I didn't know it had been overturned, but I do know that I consider that to be a problem rather than a reason to celebrate.

                      As someone currently on hormone suppression treatment, it is no walk in the park. And I know that my insecurity as a teenager regarding my developing body, and my disconnect with "normal" would have predisposed me to possible solutions that I would have had no ability to provide informed consent for. That may have led to further treatment that rendered me sterile, and unable to function sexually. Do you really think teens have the capability to understand this?

                      You see this judgment as validation for gender ideology. I see it as what happens when safeguarding and wider considerations are thrown to the wind. We will end up with harm being done to many more than Keira Bell. Don't ask me to celebrate that result.

                    • McFlock …
                      30 September 2021 at 7:15 pm

                      Again, my opinion is not solely based on the opinions of people I know. It's a combination of that and what the trans community seem to go for. No group agrees completely – there were probably some women who opposed women having the vote, for whatever reason. But the overall direction? That can be seen.

                      Similarly, "You see this judgment as validation for gender ideology." is actually almost the precise opposite of what I wrote: "This isn't me gloating about the judgement – it'll go further up".

                      As for what teens can consent to, many of them are smarter than you give them credit for, and some have very good reasons for not wanting their caregivers invovled in decisions about their reproductive organs. Sure, there should be clear criteria on establishing the capacity for and existence of informed consent. In the UK, that's called the Gillick test. It's a clinical process, not the business of the courts.

                      Appealing against that doesn't just affect trans patients, it affects every young person needing sexual health services of all kinds but not wanting their parents' involvement in that process.

                      BTW, "gender ideology". That's one of the phrases that has a really foul undertone to which you are probably oblivious.

                    • Molly …
                      30 September 2021 at 7:40 pm

                      So, no worries about the probable exclusion of some women in women's spaces then. And once again, no answering to the questions regarding your previous support for women only spaces, and why this has changed.

                      As far as I am aware, the Gillick competence test was created for the prescription of contraception to minors. Fit for purpose, and used to provide medication that on cessation would no longer have an effect. This successful use, has been used to justify the provision of off-label medications, which may have permanent effects, to minors.

                      I think this is a problem. It is also similar to referring to the harm of gay conversion practices, and conflating that to mean that affirmation only models are the only acceptable approaches when dealing with teenagers and young people.

                      These are not one-sized fits all solutions. Each situation needs a purpose built solution.

                      "BTW, "gender ideology". That's one of the phrases that has a really foul undertone to which you are probably oblivious."

                      I am actually, because as I mentioned before the language used in these discussions is so fluid and amorphous it is hard to keep track. I perhaps should have used "gender identity ideology" but you can give me the updated appropriate term to refer to. (Given that you have probably an updated definition of the word woman that I don't ascribe to, let's just try to understand what each other is saying rather than get caught up in the semantics.)

                    • McFlock …
                      30 September 2021 at 8:19 pm

                      jesus christ, did you ever consider the idea that maybe concentrating on one complex topic in a comment and trying really hard to avoid pissing you off might, just might, not be an intentional slight or an indication that I have zero consideration for the other complex topics in this comment thread?

                      But no, keep seeking out the worst possible inference to make.

                      That way me removing myself from this thread right now is obviously some example of "no debate" or bad faith rather than exasperation at someone who thinks the lack of "identity" is probably the insulting bit and not the presence of "ideology".

                    • Molly …
                      30 September 2021 at 8:35 pm

                      Jesus Christ, McFlock. Instead of being outraged for repeated attempts to engage and requests for you to read comments in their entirety before responding, perhaps you should remove yourself from this thread.

                      BTW, I don't feel slighted. I feel like someone who continually has to remind you that you are not responding to content. I would only be slighted, if I thought this was done intentionally in an attempt to not engage. I actually think you are unaware that you do it. That's why I ask specific questions, so that the conversation can go back on track.

                      I remain unlearned in the right phrase to use in regards to gender identity ideology. Do you actually have one to provide? Because statements that regard biological sex as a state of mind is a belief. Hence, ideology.

                    • McFlock …
                      1 October 2021 at 1:19 pm

                      One simple question:

                      do you think

                      So, no worries about the probable exclusion of some women in women's spaces then.

                      is part of

                      repeated attempts to engage and requests for you to read comments in their entirety before responding

                      Because I sure don't. It looks to me like an accusation based on yet another worst possible interpretation.

          • Red Blooded One 12.3.1.3.2
            30 September 2021 at 3:13 pm

            100 percent

          • Anker 12.3.1.3.3
            30 September 2021 at 3:46 pm

            McFlock I don't think anyone said they don't see how it might be that the Trans community would find this an unsafe space.

            I think the trans community are only seeking affirmation. They are entitled to want that. But they may not find that on the Standard. As I said the Standard is a place for robust and rigourous debate.

            I can't understand your bit "throw in a bit of patronizing…."

            Women are being silenced. What do you think happened when trans activists successfully shut down their meetings.

            If you can't be fucked with anymore, no problem. Just scroll down

        • Anker 12.3.1.4
          30 September 2021 at 5:56 pm

          RBO are you saying it is offensive to refer to women with penises?

          We women are being told by some trans activists that women can have penises, men can give birth and lesbians can have penises (so being a lesbian is no longer about being self sex attracted, it is about being gender identity attracted).

          Do you understand why some of us don't accept the above statements?

          • Red Blooded One 12.3.1.4.1
            30 September 2021 at 6:29 pm

            In the context of referring to Trans Women, yes I do, however please stop asking me questions, I will be accused of running away if I don't respond to all your questions. I am happy to wait until Weka returns or a Site Moderator gives an indication that they do or don't agree with my suggestion of a special daily post for you to discuss this topic and anyone else from either side can join you. I trust you can do the same.

            • Molly 12.3.1.4.1.1
              30 September 2021 at 8:41 pm

              "In the context of referring to Trans Women, yes I do, however please stop asking me questions," – but this is a descriptor used by the transgender community itself.

              Oh, that's right. Stop asking me questions or giving me information. Be quiet, be quiet.

    • weka 12.4
      30 September 2021 at 9:13 pm

      Ages ago I think we had a daily special Post for Posting about the US Elections so that Open Mike was not clogged with loads of talking on the one topic.

      With the obvious passion associated with the Births, Deaths, Marriages, and Relationships Registration Bill would it be possible to have a daily thread that people could CHOOSE to go to on that topic, and then it might help avoid the overheated reactions we are seeing (from both sides) on occasions on this topic.

      My apologies for suggesting it, and ignore the suggestion, if something like that isn't as easy as it sounds.

      It's fine to ask. I can't see the justification for the amount of work involved for an author/mod (it's a fair amount of work). With the US elections every day there were long, heated debates that tended to take over OM, so dedicated posts took the heat out by not annoying so many people that were sick of it, and it made it easier to moderate.

      That's not happening with the BDMRR debates (there are days, sometimes a lot, when there's been no discussion at all).

      If you don't like the topic, my suggestion is to scroll on by. I have to do this with various TS topics that go through phases eg vaccines at the moment (although as a mod I actually have to scan them to make sure no-one is being an arse)

      • Incognito 12.4.1
        30 September 2021 at 9:16 pm

        Please see Internal Post in Back End.

      • Anker 12.4.2
        30 September 2021 at 9:42 pm

        Agree Weka. I think people are exaggerating how much of the time this topic comes up on Open Mike.

        As well as having push back about it, I have a number of women (I assume) commenters thanking me for bringing it up.

        I don't like the idea of having a special post for this topic. It smacks a little of lets get these pesky women off Open Mike

      • Red Blooded One 12.4.3
        1 October 2021 at 7:38 am

        Thanks Weka for you considered reply,

        I certainly don't wish to cause anyone any more work on this issue. You asked the other night why there wasn't more engagement from the other side of this issue. May I suggest the piling on, from a passionate few, for even asking for a special daily post to discuss it, may answer that question.

        For the record I do not, as Anker suggests below, wish to get any "pesky women off Open Mile" I however, can happily take another option of rather having to scroll passed, I can take a self-imposed avoidance of Open Mike until after the Births, Deaths, Marriages, and Relationships Registration Bill has been finalized.

        See you after that. Cheers

        • weka 12.4.3.1
          1 October 2021 at 11:24 am

          I agree that pile ons can be counter productive. In this instance, your request was fine, and your replies after that even handed and point, so thanks for that. I find that if too many people are engaging with stuff I am saying it's useful to pick which I want to reply to and focus on those. Or choose not to engage at all (in this case you asked the mods a question, so there was no obligation to respond to anyone else). This is a really useful skill to develop in robust debate culture. One person's pile on is another person's water off a duck's back. I wouldn't class yesterday as a pile on, the people that replied to you were likewise evenhanded and making coherent points. Everyone was ok in what they did despite the apparently conflict.

          I will say that some of the response yesterday was based on how you engaged on the topic the other day. I have two thoughts about this. One is that there's no obligation here to respond to anyone other than moderators. However, it does tend to piss people off if someone says something controversial and then says don't talk to me about that.

          I also think that where you have been saying you find some of the language about trans people offensive, you probably need to explain what you mean if you are going to stay in the conversations eg women with penises is a common concept in trans circles online, I don't know what is offensive about it because you haven't explained. I would also say that being specific rather than general improves debate eg link to where someone has said 'women with penises' and then we can see what you actually mean (especially the mods).

          • weka 12.4.3.1.1
            1 October 2021 at 11:25 am

            I would appreciate you acknowledging you have read this, and am fine if you don't want to engage further.

            • Red Blooded One 12.4.3.1.1.1
              1 October 2021 at 12:43 pm

              Thanks, I acknowledge I have read this. I wont rehash the offensive comments but even you have, in conversations, acknowledged them on occasions so I didn't see the need to go over them again, as I thoroughly explained why I felt them offensive at the time. I bow to your judgment and will take time off from Open Mike so that I don't get caught up again trying to defend against the hurt that words can cause on a maligned community. Regards, RBO

    • Molly 13.1
      30 September 2021 at 1:29 pm

      Sometimes, life surprises in a good way.

      • joe90 13.1.1
        30 September 2021 at 1:41 pm

        The selfish, entitled arse certainly owes an apology to his family, Maniapoto iwi, search and rescue folk and members of the local community who gave a substantial amount their time and resources to look for him and his kids.

        • Molly 13.1.1.1
          30 September 2021 at 1:59 pm

          Selfish arse with living children, which is often not the case for selfish arses.

          For that I am thankful.

          • observer 13.1.1.1.1
            30 September 2021 at 2:09 pm

            Yes, wonderful news. I'm sure most of us assumed they were dead, and the news headlines had certainly moved on. Whatever the personal circumstances, an outcome to celebrate.

        • KJT 13.1.1.2
          30 September 2021 at 7:24 pm

          You wouldn't grudge a "massive search" for someone in the bush because of a broken leg.

          Why, would you grudge a search because of someone, as seems likely, with a broken brain.

          Both equally need help. As someone who has been involved in searches, it is what we do as a community.

          Just pleased, as I have been on other occasions, after searches for people with mental problems, that they are safe.

    • Anker 13.2
      30 September 2021 at 3:47 pm

      Yes that is good news

  14. chris T 14
    30 September 2021 at 1:21 pm

    Ardern just got Tova to ask their rehearsed patsy question, so Ardern can say Auckland's border will still be shut at level 2.

    Congrats Auckland.

    That will be you going to level 2, but with closed borders, so you can't spread yourself round the country in the school holiday.

    Edit: Subtlety isn’t Ardern’s thing is it?

    • Incognito 14.1
      30 September 2021 at 1:44 pm

      I trust you’d conflate clarity and subtlety.

      • chris T 14.1.1
        30 September 2021 at 1:52 pm

        Just saying they could have made it a bit less obvious.

        • Incognito 14.1.1.1
          30 September 2021 at 1:57 pm

          I see, obfuscate like JC and JK. Yeah, nah.

          • chris T 14.1.1.1.1
            30 September 2021 at 4:25 pm

            You are right in one respect.

            Key would have never openly displayed going to his chosen friendly journalists every presser and feeding them questions.

            (to be fair that is probably bollocks sorry. He would have feed questions he needed. They all do, but I am just saying he wouldn't have been so blatant about it)

            All good though.

            At least now we know what the announcement will be next week.

            [Yes, it is bollocks, but you said it anyway. So, you can now provide support for all your assertions in your comment, including that they all (!) feed questions to the friendly (!) journalists [at] every (!) presser. Failing to do so will cost you a month.

            Or you can withdraw your trolling bollocks, apologise, and take a week off for wasting my time, unless your apology comes across as genuine, this time, given that you say sorry a lot, but it is obviously rather meaningless coming from you – Incognito]

            • Incognito 14.1.1.1.1.1
              30 September 2021 at 5:05 pm

              See my Moderation note @ 4:25 pm.

            • chris T 14.1.1.1.1.2
              30 September 2021 at 6:09 pm

              I just said I was wrong about Key not doing the same thing.

              If you want a grovelling apology I apologise. It was a dim thing to say on here.

              Forget I mentioned it. But Auckland is obviously going level 2 next week with the borders still blocked, so well done people, in the grand scheme of things, you have rocked in level 3.

              [Hmm, I’d already put you in the Black List for a week, but then dinner called. I see that you slightly edited your comment. So, I’ve slightly edited my note for you that I’d written before dinner.

              Good to know that you know that Key is/was not doing the same thing. I’m so relieved that you clarified just that one part of your comment.

              If you want a grovelling apology I apologise. It was a dim thing to say on here.

              Forget I mentioned it.

              It is not about what I want; I gave you an opportunity to correct and redeem yourself with a genuine apology. You did not really grasp that opportunity with both hands.

              I cannnot forget anything you say here, unless I delete it and then it still shows up in the Trash folder and I have to delete it there too. What is said, is said and stays said.

              You cannot have it both ways; mean what you say, say what you mean. If you have nothing to say then don’t say anything.

              You are a disingenuous time-wasting commenter, but I’ll give you one more chance – Incognito]

            • chris T 14.1.1.1.1.3
              30 September 2021 at 6:13 pm

              Incognito.

              Did you actually watch the 1pm press conference?

    • Muttonbird 14.2
      30 September 2021 at 2:07 pm

      Fine with me. I don't need to galavant around the country to prove I'm able.

      As long as work starts next week, and school and sport resumes in Term 4, I'll be happy.

      • Muttonbird 14.2.1
        30 September 2021 at 2:21 pm

        Although, having said that, I am very concerned we are going to look like this in early November.

        Victoria has recorded 1438 new locally acquired Covid-19 infections, another daily record, as health authorities warn the state has not yet reached the peak of the outbreak.

        Christmas might be off after all.

    • observer 14.3
      30 September 2021 at 2:13 pm

      Whatever you think of the PM's answers, to suggest that it's a "rehearsed patsy question" is a solid 9 out of 10 on the conspiracy theory scale (10 involves lizards and aliens).

  15. Sabine 15
    30 September 2021 at 1:23 pm

    And for all the cervix havers that lost their cervix to cancer, it appears that with some hormone therapy and some surgery on can grow a cervix.

    https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1443125834626260993

    Persons who suffered from cervical cancer the world over will rejoice in this knowledge.

    • Muttonbird 15.1
      30 September 2021 at 8:52 pm

      Is Scout Barbour-Evans a woman?

      • Sabine 15.1.1
        30 September 2021 at 9:47 pm

        What is a woman?
        What are women?

      • weka 15.1.2
        30 September 2021 at 9:59 pm

        I think it's possible to debate the issue without bringing in individual trans people and using them as political fodders. Especially in this case because SBE has had a lot of stupid, mean and transphobic arguments directed at them and about them in public.

        I'm also concerned that you can't see the problem of asking what you did in response to Sabine's comment. It's none of our business whether any individual NB/trans person has a cervix or not, and it's completely unnecessary for us to know or debate about that person. It's also irrelevant to the issues Sabine pointed to.

  16. Anker 16
    30 September 2021 at 2:09 pm

    Love it Sabine!

  17. veutoviper 17
    30 September 2021 at 3:40 pm

    test

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